As you've no doubt heard, 16 Afghan civilians were killed yesterday, including nine children.
What is not clear is whether the killer was a lone US soldier, or whether they was a group of them.
So far, the BBC is playing up the single soldier angle (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17336074), which seems to be preferred by the Pentagon and ISAF:
QuoteUS troops in Afghanistan have been placed on alert following the killings of 16 Afghan civilians by a US soldier.
US officials warned of reprisals after the soldier went on a rampage in villages near a base in Kandahar. Nine children were among those killed.
President Barack Obama phoned his Afghan counterpart Hamid Karzai to express condolences. But Mr Karzai has said the massacre is "unforgivable".
And Taliban militants have vowed to avenge the deaths.
US Defence Secretary Leon Panetta has said a full investigation is under way.
The soldier, believed to be a staff sergeant, is reported to have walked off his base at around 03:00 Sunday (22:30 GMT Saturday).
In the villages of Alkozai and Najeeban, about 500m (1,640 feet) from the base, he reportedly broke into three homes.
At one house in Najeeban, 11 people were found shot dead, and some of their bodies set alight. At least three of the child victims are reported to have been killed by a single shot to the head.
However, eyewitness reports (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/11/us-afghanistan-civilians-idUSBRE82A02V20120311) seem to contradict this:
QuoteHaji Samad said 11 of his relatives were killed in one house, including his children. Pictures showed blood-splattered walls where the children were killed.
"They (Americans) poured chemicals over their dead bodies and burned them," a weeping Samad told Reuters at the scene.
"I saw that all 11 of my relatives were killed, including my children and grandchildren," said Samad, who had left the home a day earlier.
Neighbors said they awoke to crackling gunfire from American soldiers, whom they described as laughing and drunk.
"They were all drunk and shooting all over the place," said neighbor Agha Lala, who visited one of the homes where the incident took place. "Their bodies were riddled with bullets."
American soldiers. They. Plural.
NO JAIL TIME FOR ANYONE! :horrormirth:
My Lai has become routine.
Fucking hell.
My dad spent a couple of years trying to train young officers on dealing with civilians, and when he came back he basically said that the majority of them were hopeless sociopaths raised on video games and with so sense of consequences. He basically said that atrocities like this were inevitable and would be widespread, and that when we bring these sociopaths back home shit is really going to get pretty because it's not like they're just going to stop.
Quote from: Nigel on March 12, 2012, 02:56:18 PM
My dad spent a couple of years trying to train young officers on dealing with civilians, and when he came back he basically said that the majority of them were hopeless sociopaths raised on video games and with so sense of consequences. He basically said that atrocities like this were inevitable and would be widespread, and that when we bring these sociopaths back home shit is really going to get pretty because it's not like they're just going to stop.
I agree 100% with your Dad... after years in that environment with that mindset, adjusting back to 'normal' seems almost impossible. That sort of issue was one of the big reasons the Europeans invented jousting and tournaments for their knights when they weren't at war. Maybe the US just figures they'll stay at war and keep reassigning them to new places far from home.
Quote from: Nigel on March 12, 2012, 02:56:18 PM
My dad spent a couple of years trying to train young officers on dealing with civilians, and when he came back he basically said that the majority of them were hopeless sociopaths raised on video games and with so sense of consequences. He basically said that atrocities like this were inevitable and would be widespread, and that when we bring these sociopaths back home shit is really going to get pretty because it's not like they're just going to stop.
What I've found is that most infantrymen are not sociopaths. In my 10 years in, I met two.
However, they are in a combat zone with
no military objective1. This essentially means that they wander in circles until someone blows them up. This is a recipe for atrocity.
1 Military objectives consist of the following:
1. Guard something.
2. Destroy something.
3. Grab something.
"Promote democracy" isn't on that list, as that is a political objective.
He may have been hyperbolizing a bit. But he was there specifically doing leadership training, trying to teach them how to NOT KILL CIVILIANS.
He was fucking depressed every time I saw him. He said it was hopeless, and that they failed every training scenario he set up. It was like they were incapable of just not butchering the crap out civilians.
For my DAD to be depressed and hopeless about it is pretty astounding. Considering that he fought in Korea and Vietnam, and has been a soldier for 65+ years. His take on it is that they just don't have leadership that knows how to deal with people.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 12, 2012, 03:31:05 PM
Quote from: Nigel on March 12, 2012, 02:56:18 PM
My dad spent a couple of years trying to train young officers on dealing with civilians, and when he came back he basically said that the majority of them were hopeless sociopaths raised on video games and with so sense of consequences. He basically said that atrocities like this were inevitable and would be widespread, and that when we bring these sociopaths back home shit is really going to get pretty because it's not like they're just going to stop.
What I've found is that most infantrymen are not sociopaths. In my 10 years in, I met two.
However, they are in a combat zone with no military objective1. This essentially means that they wander in circles until someone blows them up. This is a recipe for atrocity.
1 Military objectives consist of the following:
1. Guard something.
2. Destroy something.
3. Grab something.
"Promote democracy" isn't on that list, as that is a political objective.
Sitting around getting mortared on the regular probably does some fucked things to young people.
Quote from: Nigel on March 12, 2012, 03:48:28 PM
He may have been hyperbolizing a bit. But he was there specifically doing leadership training, trying to teach them how to NOT KILL CIVILIANS.
He was fucking depressed every time I saw him. He said it was hopeless, and that they failed every training scenario he set up. It was like they were incapable of just not butchering the crap out civilians.
For my DAD to be depressed and hopeless about it is pretty astounding. Considering that he fought in Korea and Vietnam, and has been a soldier for 65+ years. His take on it is that they just don't have leadership that knows how to deal with people.
I wonder what kind of scenarios he set up.
I've done a few shoot/don't shoot drills, and invariably 50% of the other soldiers would light up civillians.
On the other had, or the same one, I almost got into an arguement with some of my friends from my last unit when those Marines pissed on those corpses.
A question: how does one get permission to leave a Forward Operating Base, at night, alone, and armed in Afghanistan? That is another reason I doubt the Pentagon's version of this story.
Great. It's a JBLM soldier from what I've heard.
I'm reading very confused accounts. It sounds like the team hit a house about a mile away from base, then swung back and nailed two more houses closer to home. The AP witness they're settling on to support the lone gunman theory is some kid who saw his dad get shot (read: only one person in the house was wounded).
Speculation: I was thinking it was a "Kelly's Heroes" sort of thing at first, but now it's looking more as if the powers-that-be were up to their usual hijinks. Either way, I'm smelling bullshit.
It's always a JBLM soldier. That's what happens after too much exposure to Lakewood.
Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.
NAVY 9:33&1/3 pdT ?8:b
6:33AM BBC.MO 38 year old TRIAL on twitter&facebook dT 5m 6:38AM
6:38AM HOM$ ? Womah&Children dT3 Fam* (in v out}
6:41AM France 6:41AM clock iceland bank Money ? Japan <- $ dT2
6:43AM underground "WATER" MARCELLE ? THIS WATER dT3
6:46AM Lima fire 6:47AM Venswela/cuba 6:47AM HOM$ Kid Kill ||
6:48AM Public Trial, Locked in Nickel | Functional Mind | 58yo
5ยข in Sun ? Letters /-/ 6:52AM Sports, Wood 14majors ? Roads
6:53AM olympics? china&us no 6:53AM Afgan Gi 17yo Carda SadOff
Man with Beard (tail} 6:56 AM public trial of child killings|
Mon12 nhk
7:00am Quake Hit Plans 35cities Populations? 80% worried keep ties?
7:02AM no go zone | sitution | young people | no go back | HARDshipS
7:03 AM 2012 03/12 islamaba 7:07 AM b.BRAKE AnderSON | / Grant
7:09 AM China Eco growth | Story pickup (in v out) CHINA | resolve
Election March 3rd | change in LeaderShip AHEAD | UNopposed | central
Single party RULE 7:14AM Mynmar seats in parlerMINT | LOWER HOUSE
State Run TV: 7:16AM 16 People /US.obo | Prosecution } Hi Aleart
7:17 AM Disaster? pof ho ho | Art Action $7M | dec 2004 | 18yo
17.000 Missing 1/4 7:21 AM Cindi | 7:23 AM 2012 03/12 weather
20-40 cm SNOW 7:25 AM TORNADO Pnw SNOW 30cm 8M wave | 7:26 AM SNOW
-
cOMBINED 16 Afgan People "Merdered"/Children /=/ Trial of US ? Twit&FB
JBLM was where the illegal "kill team" that got done for murder were from, as I recall.
From what I hear, a lot of soldiers have concerns about the leadership of that base, and the leadership there seem to have a very cavalier attitude towards PTSD and the like.
The individual soldier they are currently holding has been in the army for 11 years, but this is his first rotation in Afghanistan. He was previously serving in Iraq before redeployment.
I bet it's some guy from 2/2 which used to be 5/2, and that brigade is fucked up. Most other units on JBLM aren't as fucked up.
And yes the kill teams were from JBLM and from 5/2.
Quote from: Cain on March 12, 2012, 04:38:36 PM
From what I hear, a lot of soldiers have concerns about the leadership of that base, and the leadership there seem to have a very cavalier attitude towards PTSD and the like.
That would seem to dovetail with their seemingly abnormally high suicide rate.
Quote from: Fuck You One-Eye on March 12, 2012, 05:57:40 PM
Quote from: Cain on March 12, 2012, 04:38:36 PM
From what I hear, a lot of soldiers have concerns about the leadership of that base, and the leadership there seem to have a very cavalier attitude towards PTSD and the like.
That would seem to dovetail with their seemingly abnormally high suicide rate.
The number of suicide prevention/intervention classes I have been forced to sit through here is mind-numbing.
If they wanted to stop suicide in the ranks, not treating them as jannasaries seems more helpful than sitting through some lame-ass class on the subject. I remember those classes, but they were very occasional for us...Maybe one every 12 months or so.
They were kind of like:
"If you feel like the unnecessary stress and weird treatment inflicted on you by your chain of command may lead to suicide, please go straight to your chain of command and tell them you have a problem."
Saw one kid do that. :lol:
He was reffered to Community Mental Health Services, who asked him how much he drank, he said about once a week, so they referred him to the army alcohol program ("THIS GUY IS YOUR PROBLEM, LOL"), and his clearance got yanked, so he couldn't perform his job. Since he had to work out of his MOS, he couldn't get promoted. The resulting hilarity ended in him getting a few article 15s, and being separated "for the good of the army", 2 years into his 4 year term.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 12, 2012, 08:31:52 PM
If they wanted to stop suicide in the ranks, not treating them as jannasaries seems more helpful than sitting through some lame-ass class on the subject. I remember those classes, but they were very occasional for us...Maybe one every 12 months or so.
They were kind of like:
"If you feel like the unnecessary stress and weird treatment inflicted on you by your chain of command may lead to suicide, please go straight to your chain of command and tell them you have a problem."
Saw one kid do that. :lol:
He was reffered to Community Mental Health Services, who asked him how much he drank, he said about once a week, so they referred him to the army alcohol program ("THIS GUY IS YOUR PROBLEM, LOL"), and his clearance got yanked, so he couldn't perform his job. Since he had to work out of his MOS, he couldn't get promoted. The resulting hilarity ended in him getting a few article 15s, and being separated "for the good of the army", 2 years into his 4 year term.
That sucks, but things have changed a lot. I was going to behavior health a lot about 6 months before I separated, never had my clearance revoked, still had my job and no one in my chain of command would have dared to fucked with that. But at the same time there are a still a lot of "old school" douchebag 'NCOs" around that dog on soldiers for getting any kind of help, mental or physical, which in turn discourages them from seeking the help they need, and a lot of them think it's weak to get help.
Oh and by the by, I am a certified suicide intervention specialist. :lulz:
Quote from: Guru Coyote on March 12, 2012, 08:42:34 PM
Oh and by the by, I am a certified suicide intervention specialist. :lulz:
I need to get into that gig.
:lol:
TEH DOKTOR IS IN!
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 12, 2012, 08:47:41 PM
Quote from: Guru Coyote on March 12, 2012, 08:42:34 PM
Oh and by the by, I am a certified suicide intervention specialist. :lulz:
I need to get into that gig.
:lol:
TEH DOKTOR IS IN!
I had FUN in that class. Straight up told the instructor, who was the brigade chaplain's assistant, that I saw nothing wrong with suicide and that short of strapping someone to a bed with a bite guard, will stop someone, and that at that point you might as have killed the person.
And in the final student made scenarios, I committed suicide by driving off a cliff.
Quote from: Guru Coyote on March 12, 2012, 09:04:14 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 12, 2012, 08:47:41 PM
Quote from: Guru Coyote on March 12, 2012, 08:42:34 PM
Oh and by the by, I am a certified suicide intervention specialist. :lulz:
I need to get into that gig.
:lol:
TEH DOKTOR IS IN!
I had FUN in that class. Straight up told the instructor, who was the brigade chaplain's assistant, that I saw nothing wrong with suicide and that short of strapping someone to a bed with a bite guard, will stop someone, and that at that point you might as have killed the person.
And in the final student made scenarios, I committed suicide by driving off a cliff.
I think I would excel in that field.
"Here, kid, drink this rotgut while I drive you around to the meatmarket bar. If you strike out there, we'll go sunroofing and then see if we can't get you fixed up at The Meetrack. Your problem isn't that you're depressed or anything, your problem is that I have been given your case. When we're done, if the process doesn't kill you, I will have given you new purpose in life; ie, to kill me."
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 12, 2012, 09:08:06 PM
Quote from: Guru Coyote on March 12, 2012, 09:04:14 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 12, 2012, 08:47:41 PM
Quote from: Guru Coyote on March 12, 2012, 08:42:34 PM
Oh and by the by, I am a certified suicide intervention specialist. :lulz:
I need to get into that gig.
:lol:
TEH DOKTOR IS IN!
I had FUN in that class. Straight up told the instructor, who was the brigade chaplain's assistant, that I saw nothing wrong with suicide and that short of strapping someone to a bed with a bite guard, will stop someone, and that at that point you might as have killed the person.
And in the final student made scenarios, I committed suicide by driving off a cliff.
I think I would excel in that field.
"Here, kid, drink this rotgut while I drive you around to the meatmarket bar. If you strike out there, we'll go sunroofing and then see if we can't get you fixed up at The Meetrack. Your problem isn't that you're depressed or anything, your problem is that I have been given your case. When we're done, if the process doesn't kill you, I will have given you new purpose in life; ie, to kill me."
Sounds like win.
Pentagon is sticking to the "lone gunman" theory of Sunday night.
Quote from: Cain on March 12, 2012, 09:39:59 PM
Pentagon is sticking to the "lone gunman" theory of Sunday night.
Aw, for Chrissakes.
Are they blaming Rambo?
This is starting to look more and more like My Lai, except with less Lt Colin Powell helping to try covering it up.
Aren't Afghans armed? Wouldn't a lone gunman been gunned down rather quickly? Last time I checked an M16 is not quiet.
I'm pretty sure every Afghan villager is allowed by law to keep an AK-47 to hand...if only because trying to disarm everyone in the country would be impossible.
And yeah, I did find it unlikely that he would be able to kill 16 people on his own...I mean, unless they were all huddled together in the same room, and he got the drop on them...which we know didn't happen...
I'll be interested to see if the US Army carries out a proper investigation. Forensics should be able to tell pretty quickly if there was more than one shooter...if they bother to investigate it at all, that is. If the soldier confesses to all the killings, well, then they may just declare it open and shut, time to move on.
So the likely options are
1 - 1 guy left base armed and/or became drunk then shot civilians.
2- 2+ people left base armed and/or became drunk then shot civilians
What seems to be in contention is the likely level of cover up and number of other people potentially involved.
Given that shit rolls downhill in the military, I'm pretty sure everything is going to be focused on the one guy. One nut is a bad apple. Several nuts is a bad barrel. It's a lot of hassle and likely tons of bad PR to investigate the environment that produces the desire to do this.
http://rt.com/news/afghanistan-us-drunk-shooting-373/
Russia Today is running the multiple soldier angle.
http://www.pajhwok.com/en/2012/03/15/20-us-troops-executed-panjwai-massacre-probe
QuoteA parliamentary probe team on Thursday said up to 20 American troops were involved in Sunday's killing of 16 civilians in southern Kandahar province.
The probing delegation includes lawmakers Hamidzai Lali, Abdul Rahim Ayubi, Shakiba Hashimi, Syed Mohammad Akhund and Bismillah Afghanmal, all representing Kandahar province at the Wolesi Jirga and Abdul Latif Padram, a lawmaker from northern Badakhshan province, Mirbat Mangal, Khost province, Muhammad Sarwar Usmani, Farah province.
The team spent two days in the province, interviewing the bereaved families, tribal elders, survivors and collecting evidences at the site in Panjwai district.
Hamizai Lali told Pajhwok Afghan News their investigation showed there were 15 to 20 American soldiers, who executed the brutal killings.
"We closely examined the site of the incident, talked to the families who lost their beloved ones, the injured people and tribal elders," he said.
Wonderful. :weary:
I lost all respect for Fareed Zakaria when he referred to the multiple attacker theory as a "conspiracy theory" and tut-tutted Karzai for giving it airtime.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17411009
15 people? Apparently not! One chap on his third tour, injured by an IUD previously in Iraq. So there's at least a motive. To the extent of "nasty brown people"
QuoteSpeaking in Seattle on Thursday, where Sgt Bales is based at Joint Base Lewis-McChord, John Henry Browne said his new client was a "mild-mannered" man who bore no antipathy towards Muslims.
He described him as "a decorated soldier" who had an exemplary record before the shooting.
The lawyer also suggested the soldier, who began his first deployment to Afghanistan in December, was not fit to serve because of injuries he had suffered on previous tours of duty.
Mr Browne said that a car accident caused by a roadside bomb in Iraq had given the soldier a concussive head injury. Part of his foot had also been removed in surgery because of a battle-related wound, he added.
"I think it's of interest that we have a soldier who has an exemplary record, a decorated soldier who was injured in Iraq, to his brain and to his body and then despite that was sent back," he said.
Mr Browne, who has represented a number of high-profile clients including serial killer Ted Bundy and a teenage thief known as the Barefoot Bandit, said his client was a happily married man with two children, aged three and four.
I have no idea what's going on here.
Someone is full of shit and everyone has a reason to lie.
This could probably be turned into some sort of German board game.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 18, 2012, 01:47:10 AM
I lost all respect for Fareed Zakaria when he referred to the multiple attacker theory as a "conspiracy theory" and tut-tutted Karzai for giving it airtime.
Qg, do you have a link to Karzai's comments? I'd like to read it.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on March 18, 2012, 01:47:10 AM
I lost all respect for Fareed Zakaria when he referred to the multiple attacker theory as a "conspiracy theory" and tut-tutted Karzai for giving it airtime.
Fareed Zakaria - the voice of conventional American foreign policy analysis. That alone should engender some mistrust. (Also the fact he writes like an IR undergrad, and has done for at least the last decade, somewhat annoys on a personal level. There are plenty of competent, intelligent and media-savvy IR professionals out there - hell, give Dan Drezner some airtime, he's not only a professor, he wrote a book about zombies and international political theory.
That deserves recognition)
And, as Glenn Greenwald shows, while decrying Muslim "conspiracy theorism" is a sport for certain pundits, by any objective standard, the American media does exactly the same kind of thing (http://www.salon.com/2010/05/26/conspiracies/).
Turns out the sergeant in question had been drinking with two other soldiers on the night of the shooting, and he also left the base not once but twice that night. He returned from his first trip at half past midnight, but then left again at 02:00 for at least a couple of hours.
Karzai also said his Parliament's investigation did not get cooperation from American officials.
Also, you might want to read this: http://publicintelligence.net/staff-sgt-robert-bales-censored/
Quote"I've never been more proud to be a part of this unit than that day," Bales said now a member of 2-3 Inf. headquarters, "for the simple fact that we discriminated between the bad guys and the noncombatants and then afterward we ended up helping the people that three or four hours before were trying to kill us. I think that's the real difference between being an American as opposed to being a bad guy, someone who puts his family in harm's way like that."
The guy has kids. That, for some reason, adds another layer of horror.