...With the exception of Cain's essays, we could just retitle everything in this subforum "Ain't It Awful?".
Or we could just make a horrorology-esque repository for Cain, and then retitle this whole forum. Because the content isn't "politics", it's "high weirdness by vote".
Alternative: Leave Cain's essays here, and move everything else to high weirdness.
Something else occurs to me.
This place, PD I mean, isn't really a "Discordian forum" anymore, so much as "a forum visited by Discordians".
We spend a lot of time Ain't It Awfulling about what the humans do, and not a lot of time talking about what WE do, or should be doing, or whatnot. Likewise, the elimination of the bar thread just moved the bar thread into individual blog threads.
Not COMPLAINING, here...I mean, this is PD, do what you want. I'm just saying that there's an awful lot here that would fit nicely into any board on the internet, and not a lot of what I - in my own personal opinion - think of as "discordianism", which involves a lot more hollering and creativity, and a lot less playing amatuer reporter.
Basically, if a thread's OP is just a link to a news story about the latest outrage, then why bother? We could roll them all into one thread. Contrast this with Cain's essays on politics and maybe Kai's essays on science. New, original thought that I can't just go pull down off of Yahoo News.
Anyway, that's my 4 bits, for what it's worth.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 21, 2012, 05:48:42 PM
Something else occurs to me.
This place, PD I mean, isn't really a "Discordian forum" anymore, so much as "a forum visited by Discordians".
Yes, but I think that has been true for quite a while now, other than some occassional interesting Discordian-themed threads in the PD subforum.
Even the TFY,S subforum has evolved quite a bit away from what it was originally.
Natural forum evolution, for sure, given that the membership is way different than it was even just 3 years ago.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 21, 2012, 05:48:42 PM
This place, PD I mean, isn't really a "Discordian forum" anymore, so much as "a forum visited by Discordians".
the only boards i've seen that have a specific topic and stick to them are either professional boards (engineering boards are the ones i've seen, i'm sure there are many others), and boards that have moderate, at best, traffic.
I'm grateful to have "a forum visited by Discordians". sure, i could get a link collection to stories on any other general purpose forum, but i wouldn't have the discussion that comes about from the story that i can get (and sometimes participate in)
here.... by a group of Discordians.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 21, 2012, 05:48:42 PM
...what I - in my own personal opinion - think of as "discordianism", which involves a lot more hollering and creativity...
In my Discordia, action isn't even necessary. it's just a mindset while observing the world.
I'm not a ranter, and don't feel less a Discordian for not being so.
creativity is important, though, and something that i
have been negligent in...
I guess my point is, i'm glad you guys are all here, and i think this place deserves the 'Discordian' label as much as any place could.
It could be worse. I of course point to Steve Jackson's forums. A board with all kind of superficial Discordian trappings that is basically just an RPG board. And if you try to discuss Discordia there, you get silence or anger.
Well, like I said...This isn't a complaint, so much as an observation.
Quote from: What's-His-Name? on March 21, 2012, 06:04:03 PM
Even the TFY,S subforum has evolved quite a bit away from what it was originally.
This is actually a good thing. If you go diving into the ass end of that subforum, it's ALL tarot/divination woo, marketed as "thinking".
I've noticed that as well (and have contributed my fair share to it). However, like Ipt said, the things we clip and post, and why we do it are shaped by the kind of board this is. Observations that reveal the latest Two Man Con would not be welcome or understood by most other boards; and if that becomes an echo chamber of sorts, you only have to look from where we got the URL to find vehement disagreement with out views.
I'd like more hollering and creativity as well, and I know who to blame every time I look in the mirror. So I can't really hold it against anyone.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on March 21, 2012, 07:15:30 PM
I've noticed that as well (and have contributed my fair share to it). However, like Ipt said, the things we clip and post, and why we do it are shaped by the kind of board this is. Observations that reveal the latest Two Man Con would not be welcome or understood by most other boards; and if that becomes an echo chamber of sorts, you only have to look from where we got the URL to find vehement disagreement with out views.
I'd like more hollering and creativity as well, and I know who to blame every time I look in the mirror. So I can't really hold it against anyone.
Momma taught me, "When the rock hits you, holler!", so I do. I holler here, mostly, because when I holler other places, I sometimes have to explain myself to the cops. What's interesting is the low level of hollering, when I happen to know that a lot of you are enduring a shit rain of big fucking rocks. I don't know if it's conditioning to suffer silently because people are raised to Not Make A Fuss, or if it's because it's just so much easier to GO ON THAT DIET TOMORROW, and spend all day today pigging out with the F5 button.
Either way, I'm for less suffering and more hollering. Not everyone can bring themselves to heave a brick through a plate glass window, after all, and hollering is the next best thing.
So what I'm suggesting is that we do a little less Ain't It Awfulling (thanks for the term, Stella!) over what the stinking humans have done last, and a little more FUCK YOU, IMA SPEW, over what they've done to US.
This is why I get all fucking happy when Cain & Kai post their shit. I can only understand them half the time...But when I do, my vision goes all red with rage, and my heart fills full of hate. This is good for the circulation, I hear.
Besides, life is too fucking short to spend all day Ain't It Awfulling.
There's not much to do about politics except complain, in many cases. It's all outside our respective circles of influence. i know I largely ignore federal politics these days, unless it is science related. I mean, unless I was really knowledgeable about political science, like Cain, there really isn't much I can contribute outside of, man, that really sucks. Once when I said "how dare they do these things in my name, it's my responsibility to change it", he pointed out that I shouldn't feel like that since it cannot possibly be under my control.
Should we be spending less time talking about "aint it awful" federal and international politics, and more time talking about local attempts to effect politics?
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on March 21, 2012, 07:41:20 PM
There's not much to do about politics except complain, in many cases. It's all outside our respective circles of influence. i know I largely ignore federal politics these days, unless it is science related. I mean, unless I was really knowledgeable about political science, like Cain, there really isn't much I can contribute outside of, man, that really sucks. Once when I said "how dare they do these things in my name, it's my responsibility to change it", he pointed out that I shouldn't feel like that since it cannot possibly be under my control.
Should we be spending less time talking about "aint it awful" federal and international politics, and more time talking about local attempts to effect politics?
What I'd prefer is more education on the subject, just so I CAN decide what to do at the local level. Federal shit is definitely out of my control, no argument there (though I can - and do - bet on it).
But the Ain't It Awful also extends to news stories about various people being mistreated by The Man. I have no objection to that sort of post, but I'd prefer - personally - if they were bundled in a common thread, like political cartoons. They are of limited use, after all, and don't really have any handles I can use to DO anything.
Problem is, The Machine™ is so complex now that I don't know whether to be pissed at Goldman Sachs for providing the stupid, or various banks and governments for swallowing the stupid. I honestly have no idea if the chicken fucked me, or if the egg did it, or if I'm getting tag-teamed.
So - and I'm only speaking for myself here, venting really - I'm more interested in an analysis of politics that I can understand, than I am in whatever horrible shit just happened at the individual level to some po'bucker in Buttfuck, Kansas or wherever.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 21, 2012, 07:47:31 PM
I honestly have no idea if the chicken fucked me, or if the egg did it, or if I'm getting tag-teamed.
This is a fairly stunning visual.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on March 21, 2012, 08:03:09 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 21, 2012, 07:47:31 PM
I honestly have no idea if the chicken fucked me, or if the egg did it, or if I'm getting tag-teamed.
This is a fairly stunning visual.
You have no idea.
I agree with both the OP and the following post.
In fact, my proposals for a change in focus in this subforum were motivated initially by such concerns. As you say, Complaining About Horrible Shit is, at the end of the day, not all that interesting. I can get that from any daily newspaper (for instance, today, I have spent roughly two hours going "fuck" while reading about the new budget). I think a degree of Horrible Shit is good and normal - especially when it touches on a larger story, such as the current Republican hatred of the uterus - but at the same time my interests are:
- what are the people with power doing?
- who is on what side?
- what is thing meant to accomplish, and
- will I have to choke a bitch because of it?
Ultimately, that comes down to two things:
1. Locating the people with power
2. Understanding the mechanisms of power
This is not as immediately easy as it would seem. My research tends to suggest there are three main lines of enquiry which would help with this:
1. The past. All of it.
2. Anomalies, in the political sense.
3. Obscure political science.
The utility of the past and anomalies is obvious. The third one is not immediately, but let us put it this way: if politics has a predictable pattern, and this pattern can be reduced to a rule-set, then knowledge of the rule-set gives you a massive political advantage and thus would have to be heavily defended. Such defenses would include intellectual copyright protections and funding/promoting political scientists who promote orthodox theories which, whatever their actual utility may be, are most useful because they are not a weapon which can be used against the status quo. The outlines of such a theory are only going to exist at the fringes of the discipline, or those most involved in researching the anomalies, or both.
Anyway, the other thing, about this being a site Discordians visit, and not necessarily a Discordian site....yeah, I've felt that way for a while too. "Facebook for weirdos" and all that. I'm not sure how I can personally help though. I've pretty much exhausted myself on the topic of Discordianism, and researching the above, in addition to my actual paying job, going out etc is a full time endeavour. That's why I tend to focus my efforts on this particular subforum. I'll think about it more though, see if I can't come up with something.
Quote from: Cain on March 21, 2012, 09:01:22 PM
I agree with both the OP and the following post.
In fact, my proposals for a change in focus in this subforum were motivated initially by such concerns. As you say, Complaining About Horrible Shit is, at the end of the day, not all that interesting. I can get that from any daily newspaper (for instance, today, I have spent roughly two hours going "fuck" while reading about the new budget). I think a degree of Horrible Shit is good and normal - especially when it touches on a larger story, such as the current Republican hatred of the uterus - but at the same time my interests are:
- what are the people with power doing?
- who is on what side?
- what is thing meant to accomplish, and
- will I have to choke a bitch because of it?
Ultimately, that comes down to two things:
1. Locating the people with power
2. Understanding the mechanisms of power
This is not as immediately easy as it would seem. My research tends to suggest there are three main lines of enquiry which would help with this:
1. The past. All of it.
2. Anomalies, in the political sense.
3. Obscure political science.
The utility of the past and anomalies is obvious. The third one is not immediately, but let us put it this way: if politics has a predictable pattern, and this pattern can be reduced to a rule-set, then knowledge of the rule-set gives you a massive political advantage and thus would have to be heavily defended. Such defenses would include intellectual copyright protections and funding/promoting political scientists who promote orthodox theories which, whatever their actual utility may be, are most useful because they are not a weapon which can be used against the status quo. The outlines of such a theory are only going to exist at the fringes of the discipline, or those most involved in researching the anomalies, or both.
Anyway, the other thing, about this being a site Discordians visit, and not necessarily a Discordian site....yeah, I've felt that way for a while too. "Facebook for weirdos" and all that. I'm not sure how I can personally help though. I've pretty much exhausted myself on the topic of Discordianism, and researching the above, in addition to my actual paying job, going out etc is a full time endeavour. That's why I tend to focus my efforts on this particular subforum. I'll think about it more though, see if I can't come up with something.
So, perhaps we need more discussion about historical events, especially those that were anomalous.
Maybe. Reconstructing them and putting them into an easily understandable context can take ages though.
For instance, my area of particular fascination, the Italian troubles. I have a small library on that alone, and I've made mention of it here and there, but to talk about it all, take it in in one go is potentially mind-blowing. And the problem is, most of the information about it on the internet is in Italian, and most of the information I have on it is in rare and expensive books, which are not available in PDF format.
And then, by the time I'd put that work into them, and posted them, a thread on how Rush Limbaugh said a moronic thing would have three times as many views, and fives times the discussion.
Quote from: Cain on March 21, 2012, 10:45:27 PM
Maybe. Reconstructing them and putting them into an easily understandable context can take ages though.
For instance, my area of particular fascination, the Italian troubles. I have a small library on that alone, and I've made mention of it here and there, but to talk about it all, take it in in one go is potentially mind-blowing. And the problem is, most of the information about it on the internet is in Italian, and most of the information I have on it is in rare and expensive books, which are not available in PDF format.
And then, by the time I'd put that work into them, and posted them, a thread on how Rush Limbaugh said a moronic thing would have three times as many views, and fives times the discussion.
Which doesn't exactly give you a huge amount of motivation to do that. I see.
Quote from: Cain on March 21, 2012, 10:45:27 PM
And then, by the time I'd put that work into them, and posted them, a thread on how Rush Limbaugh said a moronic thing would have three times as many views, and fives times the discussion.
For a given value of "discussion".
It seems like Aneristic Illusions has been moving away from such Isn't It Awful types of posts though. Ever since you wrote that excellent proposal (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,31651.0.html) to focus more on economic, geopolitical, and clandestine issues I've noticed higher quality content up in here.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 21, 2012, 05:42:16 PM
...With the exception of Cain's essays, we could just retitle everything in this subforum "Ain't It Awful?".
Or we could just make a horrorology-esque repository for Cain, and then retitle this whole forum. Because the content isn't "politics", it's "high weirdness by vote".
Alternative: Leave Cain's essays here, and move everything else to high weirdness.
Bit of an aside but, it comes as a bit of a surprise and yet, no surprise to me at all, upon reflection, knowing that you've read Eric Berne. I found him very dry in
Transactional Analysis but loved
Games People Play. I don't know hardly anyone personally who's read any of his stuff. That's probably a reflection on the company I keep. It really isn't reading for everyone.
Not that I know you personally. God knows you wouldn't want to be associated with my sort. :lol:
Actually, now that I know, I'm not surprised at all. You have a way of cutting right to the center of people's personalities within just a few posts. It makes perfect sense you've read his books.
To the OP, I agree completely. It's really just a game of Ain't It Awful, over and over. Cain's and DSquid's and a few other notable exceptions aside.
I always return to the Financial Fuckery thread to catch up even though I don't have time to add to it much lately.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on March 22, 2012, 10:57:09 PM
Bit of an aside but, it comes as a bit of a surprise and yet, no surprise to me at all, upon reflection, knowing that you've read Eric Berne.
Who? If it's the Ain't It Awful thing, I got that from Stella.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on March 22, 2012, 10:57:09 PM
Not that I know you personally. God knows you wouldn't want to be associated with my sort. :lol:
Leave the butthurt at the door, sir. There's nothing productive in that sort of nonsense, and we are serious people.
:responsible:
OH, well then. You should read Games People Play. I think you'd like it.
My butt stopped hurting months ago. But it remembers. Oh yes, it does.
Just to play my role - I don't necessarily agree with this elitism - perhaps it would make sense to have a multiple-tier version of the discordia forum? Cain's essays, for example, not only belong in their own section, but users should provide a token of exchange (see: sacrifice) in order to access them? I propose that eligible members be asked to also write one (or two) essays specifically for pd.com to then gain access to the vault?
Quote from: Disco Pickle on March 22, 2012, 11:11:07 PM
OH, well then. You should read Games People Play. I think you'd like it.
My butt stopped hurting months ago. But it remembers. Oh yes, it does.
1. I'll give it a try, thanks.
2. If it remembers, then it still aches. Posting drunk + weird statements + digging in your heels = usually way worse than you got. I took WAY more shit here in 2005, for way less. Get over it, move on. There's plenty to do & say without stewing in your own juices over perceived wrongs from last year.
Quote from: LuciferX on March 22, 2012, 11:11:31 PM
Just to play my role - I don't necessarily agree with this elitism - perhaps it would make sense to have a multiple-tier version of the discordia forum? Cain's essays, for example, not only belong in their own section, but users should provide a token of exchange (see: sacrifice) in order to access them? I propose that eligible members be asked to also write one (or two) essays specifically for pd.com to then gain access to the vault?
Why? We're not trying to restrict access to information. Quite the opposite. Cain & Kai should be read by as many people as is feasibly possible. Out of everyone here, they have the most to say, even if they haven't got mouths as big as mine. Why the hell would we make it more difficult to spread their information?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 11:14:15 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on March 22, 2012, 11:11:07 PM
OH, well then. You should read Games People Play. I think you'd like it.
My butt stopped hurting months ago. But it remembers. Oh yes, it does.
1. I'll give it a try, thanks.
2. If it remembers, then it still aches. Posting drunk + weird statements + digging in your heels = usually way worse than you got. I took WAY more shit here in 2005, for way less. Get over it, move on. There's plenty to do & say without stewing in your own juices over perceived wrongs from last year.
I... wasn't. It was so tongue in cheek there's now a hole in my face. Other than those other ones.
I know not to post here drunk and or in a stupid, pick-a-fight mindset. Which is why it hasn't happened in a long time.
Nice to see ya Dok.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on March 22, 2012, 11:19:14 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 11:14:15 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on March 22, 2012, 11:11:07 PM
OH, well then. You should read Games People Play. I think you'd like it.
My butt stopped hurting months ago. But it remembers. Oh yes, it does.
1. I'll give it a try, thanks.
2. If it remembers, then it still aches. Posting drunk + weird statements + digging in your heels = usually way worse than you got. I took WAY more shit here in 2005, for way less. Get over it, move on. There's plenty to do & say without stewing in your own juices over perceived wrongs from last year.
I... wasn't. It was so tongue in cheek there's now a hole in my face. Other than those other ones.
I know not to post here drunk and or in a stupid, pick-a-fight mindset. Which is why it hasn't happened in a long time.
Nice to see ya Dok.
Good to see you, too. But I must be going, as I have to see a man about a new car. Since the venerable & holy van finally died.
No more Jeep? :cry:
Ah shit, more thread jack. NM, catch you in another one.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 11:15:58 PM
Quote from: LuciferX on March 22, 2012, 11:11:31 PM
Just to play my role - I don't necessarily agree with this elitism - perhaps it would make sense to have a multiple-tier version of the discordia forum? Cain's essays, for example, not only belong in their own section, but users should provide a token of exchange (see: sacrifice) in order to access them? I propose that eligible members be asked to also write one (or two) essays specifically for pd.com to then gain access to the vault?
Why? We're not trying to restrict access to information. Quite the opposite. Cain & Kai should be read by as many people as is feasibly possible. Out of everyone here, they have the most to say, even if they haven't got mouths as big as mine. Why the hell would we make it more difficult to spread their information?
I guess the idea is that the value of the good essays (a section thereof ) could be leveraged by creating a pool of knowledge that is a cut above the rest - like a pool on the roof. Its not really an exercise in cognitive dissonance: the value of the good essays is best expressed if they enter into conversation with others of similar caliber. I don't want to make it hard to access the essays, I want to make it right by having their value recognized and reciprocated. It also will change the disposition of people from superficially just skimming the information to actually being involved in a close reading?
Quote from: Disco Pickle on March 22, 2012, 11:23:53 PM
No more Jeep? :cry:
Ah shit, more thread jack. NM, catch you in another one.
The jeep is still kicking, but he won't let me use it for sunroofing anymore. :x
Quote from: Doktor Howl on March 22, 2012, 11:15:58 PM
Quote from: LuciferX on March 22, 2012, 11:11:31 PM
Just to play my role - I don't necessarily agree with this elitism - perhaps it would make sense to have a multiple-tier version of the discordia forum? Cain's essays, for example, not only belong in their own section, but users should provide a token of exchange (see: sacrifice) in order to access them? I propose that eligible members be asked to also write one (or two) essays specifically for pd.com to then gain access to the vault?
Why? We're not trying to restrict access to information. Quite the opposite. Cain & Kai should be read by as many people as is feasibly possible. Out of everyone here, they have the most to say, even if they haven't got mouths as big as mine. Why the hell would we make it more difficult to spread their information?
Mmm, I think we all have a lot to say, though each in our own way and style. We have a lot of experts here in varying fields.
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on March 22, 2012, 11:26:06 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on March 22, 2012, 11:23:53 PM
No more Jeep? :cry:
Ah shit, more thread jack. NM, catch you in another one.
The jeep is still kicking, but he won't let me use it for sunroofing anymore. :x
:lulz: my sunroof is permanent at the moment. Have to order a new rag and haven't gotten around to it.
I think LuciferX was saying and doing exactly what he meant in his first sentence. It was expected anyway, I think.
Quote from: Disco Pickle on March 22, 2012, 11:32:04 PM
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on March 22, 2012, 11:26:06 PM
Quote from: Disco Pickle on March 22, 2012, 11:23:53 PM
No more Jeep? :cry:
Ah shit, more thread jack. NM, catch you in another one.
The jeep is still kicking, but he won't let me use it for sunroofing anymore. :x
:lulz: my sunroof is permanent at the moment. Have to order a new rag and haven't gotten around to it.
I think LuciferX was saying and doing exactly what he meant in his first sentence. It was expected anyway, I think.
I know, it's kinda a pickle... If not restricting access, maybe the ability to submit comments should be awarded by merit?
Having my own little section might spur me on to write more. I mean, I can definitely see such a thing appealing to me and perhaps make putting in the long hours into doing a proper and thorough analysis and then writing it all up more palatable.
But then again it might not spur me on that much.
Net, I do agree the quality has improved greatly since that thread. However, I would also say we are still more at a "link quote comment: fucked up thing" stage than a "analysis of stuff" one, and that seems to be the thing people would prefer, going by this thread.
I admit I've done my own share of "Link (http://www.zazzle.com/dont_tread_on_my_uterus_bumper_sticker-128828810679730080) -> 'OMG' -> post" without meaningful commentary -- but the majority of the time, that's because I really don't know what to make of it. I suppose I could spend more time asking specific questions, though.
I'd also like to point out that every time I see the title of this thread, I immediately start singing Public Enemy.
"It occurred to me, the suckers had authority!" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PmsBpBKGIY)
Quote from: Cain on March 23, 2012, 07:58:57 AM
Having my own little section might spur me on to write more. I mean, I can definitely see such a thing appealing to me and perhaps make putting in the long hours into doing a proper and thorough analysis and then writing it all up more palatable.
But then again it might not spur me on that much.
I think that would be a good idea, not (just) because I like to read your essays on current events, but because I really like those essays where you look at the bigger picture. Those essays stay relevant for a very long time, but they get hard to find after a while because there is no search function.
Just now I was re-reading the Fascist Virus, and found an old essay of yours titled "Fascist Culture" on Or Kill Me, which was marked as read for some reason, even though I don't remember reading it.
Anyway, even if it won't make you write more, I think it would be really cool if I could find those old essays without having to google things like
"The Fascist Virus" site:www.principiadiscordia.com/forum