The funny thing about being the good guy is that you have to be "good" to qualify. If you do bad things in a good cause, you are no longer the good guy. If you cheer for people doing bad things for a good cause, you are also no longer a good guy. As the man said, "The ends do not justify the means", and we used to hang people that behaved otherwise when they went too far (WWII comes to mind), or tried to excuse their behavior with "I was only following orders".
Thing is, once you violate your principles, it becomes easier and easier to do. Precedent takes away the stigma of the bad acts, and they become normal...No matter how disgusting they may have appeared originally. Torture is one example, and also one that illustrates a coping mechanism people use to justify their actions; they change the name of the act, as if that somehow changes the morality of the act. Phrases like "enhanced interrogation" and "extraordinary rendition" come to mind.
It all happens in little steps, or sometimes in larger steps, when the public gets scared enough to allow it. Then, one day, you turn back and see that the light is dim and far, far back the way you came.
A nation that does evil things is by definition an evil nation. Not many people will argue if you refer to North Korea or China as evil nations...But they are far less likely to listen if you mention America, as they still think America is the good guy, driven to hard practices by "necessity". But a nation that tortures people; that holds people indefinitely without trial, that spends all its time spying on its own citizen and trying to justify removing the rights of most of its population in favor of a select minority; that attacks nations that did it no wrong...That is pretty much a working definition of an evil nation.
But it's never too late to change. It's never too late for redemption. The tunnel we've been galloping down isn't an irreversible slide, if we but have the strength as a people to change our ways. That doesn't mean we vote for someone different; the problem isn't the government, it isn't the GOP or the democrats, the problem is We The People. We have to get away from the fallacies that A) SOMEONE is running things (nobody actually is), and that one party or the other is responsible for our behavior (they both are, of course, but who elected them?).
It's time to sack up and take responsibility for our collective actions. More to the point, it's time to STOP those actions that qualify us for "evil nation" status. It's time to run the country again, instead of abdicating our responsibilities to banksters and professional liars.
Okay for now,
Dok
To Be Continued.
I'm going to have to chew on this a bit more, but I'm looking forward to the next four.
Dok, you are absolutely correct, here, but let me try to build on this.
When a nation is responsible for torture, political assassinations, destabilizing governments, failure to uphold human rights, unfair judicial practice, or a myriad of other breaches of social contract, we call that nation evil. This is the U.S., for sure. Specific examples can be cited in recent history, with full documentation.
However, has there ever been a nation that was truly free of these sorts of actions? Can there ever be a "good" nation?
I don't know the answers to these questions, but we can't really know unless someone actually makes an effort at building a nation that does not. You can't say that something is "necessary" if no one's ever tried going without it. I'm no expert, and I can't say if it's even viable. But what's worse? Passively becoming evil, or failing at trying to stop it?
Quote from: Doktor M. Phox0 on April 16, 2012, 05:04:41 PM
However, has there ever been a nation that was truly free of these sorts of actions? Can there ever be a "good" nation?
That depends. Are we insisting on perfection, or a nation that constantly tries to better itself and its citizens?
America from 1860 to 2000 was never what you'd call a "good" nation, but what it WAS, was a nation that constantly improved. Labor practices, racial relations, our relationships with other nations...Grim as our history is, there is a common thread throughout it, of painfully climbing out of its own ignorance and beastial behavior. There were setbacks along the way, but the overall trend was upwards.
In the last 12 years, that trend has reversed. We have not only done evil things, we have voted to support those evil things openly.
That has to be fixed.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 16, 2012, 05:08:58 PM
Quote from: Doktor M. Phox0 on April 16, 2012, 05:04:41 PM
However, has there ever been a nation that was truly free of these sorts of actions? Can there ever be a "good" nation?
That depends. Are we insisting on perfection, or a nation that constantly tries to better itself and its citizens?
America from 1860 to 2000 was never what you'd call a "good" nation, but what it WAS, was a nation that constantly improved. Labor practices, racial relations, our relationships with other nations...Grim as our history is, there is a common thread throughout it, of painfully climbing out of its own ignorance and beastial behavior. There were setbacks along the way, but the overall trend was upwards.
In the last 12 years, that trend has reversed. We have not only done evil things, we have voted to support those evil things openly.
That has to be fixed.
Yes, perfection in this area, is certainly beyond hope. I agree that constant improvement, especially in social and diplomatic areas, is the measure of nation, surely. We have the power to turn it around, andd yet, as yuo have said, we keep voting in support of these practices that are in the complete wrong direction. We gotta do something about it, and it ain't bein' apathetic, that's for damn sure.
Getting some interesting responses to this on CG. :lulz:
http://www.capitolgrilling.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=704849&page=1#Post704849
Oh, I sometimes wish I could sign up over there. :lulz:
The lefties are freaking the fuck out. Or at least one of them is, anyway. :lulz:
The right-wingers are appealing to fear, as predicted.
That zb guy is kind of an idiot no?
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on April 16, 2012, 06:18:52 PM
That zb guy is kind of an idiot no?
Only when you question the democratic party.
So...Yes.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 16, 2012, 06:20:33 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on April 16, 2012, 06:18:52 PM
That zb guy is kind of an idiot no?
Only when you question the democratic party.
So...Yes.
THose types are just as bad as teabaggers. There is no possible way that they can be wrong, and if you point out how you're wrong, it's because you just don't get it do you?
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on April 16, 2012, 06:22:11 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 16, 2012, 06:20:33 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on April 16, 2012, 06:18:52 PM
That zb guy is kind of an idiot no?
Only when you question the democratic party.
So...Yes.
THose types are just as bad as teabaggers. There is no possible way that they can be wrong, and if you point out how you're wrong, it's because you just don't get it do you?
Pretty much. The first response he made stated that I was "mentally challenged", because I pointed out that the dems have not been much different than the GOP. He's wearing a uniform, and it's buttoned so tight that it's cutting off the blood flow to his brain.
Jesus, Dok, how do you stomach that place?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 16, 2012, 06:48:51 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on April 16, 2012, 06:38:21 PM
Jesus, Dok, how do you stomach that place?
For SCIENCE!
:lulz:
It's just amazing. They're only capable of viewing the world through one tunnel, like that guy who said, "sounds like you're getting tired of Obama" like you're a democrat. Or of course, ZB who keeps posting pictures of Republicans wearing white cowboy hats like that's supposed to make some sort of point other than politicians have to pretend to be born-again Irish Christian cowboys (plus a whole slew of other things, but those are the ones that popped in my head as definite prerequisites) in order to get elected.
Oh, maybe you;ll want to post this.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/files/2011/05/obama-cowboy-hat-410x288.jpg
Twid, most people go through life with a single reality tunnel. It's easier than thinking.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 16, 2012, 07:00:34 PM
Twid, most people go through life with a single reality tunnel. It's easier than thinking.
I know. It's still kinda novel for me to notice other people busy in their own little caves though, completely unaware that they're in a cave, and that there are other caves, and that caves prevent you from seeing a whole lot.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 16, 2012, 04:53:19 PMIt's time to sack up and take responsibility for our collective actions. More to the point, it's time to STOP those actions that qualify us for "evil nation" status. It's time to run the country again, instead of abdicating our responsibilities to banksters and professional liars.
True, but not sure how to go about that. It's not like they actually give a fuck about our griping, voting, petitions, protests, boycotts, etc.
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 16, 2012, 07:16:12 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 16, 2012, 04:53:19 PMIt's time to sack up and take responsibility for our collective actions. More to the point, it's time to STOP those actions that qualify us for "evil nation" status. It's time to run the country again, instead of abdicating our responsibilities to banksters and professional liars.
True, but not sure how to go about that. It's not like they actually give a fuck about our griping, voting, petitions, protests, boycotts, etc.
Well, then, additional tactics will have to be devised. Something that isn't some stale rehash of the 60s, perhaps.
Dok, for lulz, mention the Cold War. See where that goes.
You could also mention that it's much easier to wipe out a large percent of the world's population when there are considerably fewer of us. I mean, over thirty one and a half million deaths since the end of WWII is a lot.
On topic:
I'm pretty sure it's going to have to get a lot worse before the majority of people put two and two together. They've got us pretty well wrapped up in the binary game of left versus right.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 16, 2012, 07:16:58 PM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 16, 2012, 07:16:12 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 16, 2012, 04:53:19 PMIt's time to sack up and take responsibility for our collective actions. More to the point, it's time to STOP those actions that qualify us for "evil nation" status. It's time to run the country again, instead of abdicating our responsibilities to banksters and professional liars.
True, but not sure how to go about that. It's not like they actually give a fuck about our griping, voting, petitions, protests, boycotts, etc.
Well, then, additional tactics will have to be devised. Something that isn't some stale rehash of the 60s, perhaps.
Yeah, I've been saying that for a while. Those tactics are pretty well worn and don't mean all that much anymore, unfortunately. They were incredibly effective at one point, but that time has passed.
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on April 16, 2012, 05:03:36 PM
I'm going to have to chew on this a bit more, but I'm looking forward to the next four.
Also,
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,31431.0/msg,1139815.html
:lulz:
:lulz: People with -isms. How can you get around the ism to get to the person?
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on April 16, 2012, 09:14:27 PM
:lulz: People with -isms. How can you get around the ism to get to the person?
In some cases, you can't.
Now ZB is making cracks in other threads.
BUTTHURT UBER ALLES!
Sometimes you can, you implied.
I'm trying to think of how it would work. Possibly by bringing up a situation in which they themselves have been fucked. But at first, don't bring up the who or how, just that they are. Get them good and mad. And then tell them, "Well, someone from your -ism did this to you."
Lulz ensue?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 16, 2012, 07:57:24 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on April 16, 2012, 05:03:36 PM
I'm going to have to chew on this a bit more, but I'm looking forward to the next four.
Also,
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,31431.0/msg,1139815.html
:lulz:
Fair enough. It's pretty easy to distract me.
Wow, that is a tight OP. Super-good. This is the kind of shit that I wish I could read aloud to my sociology class.
Quote from: Nigel on April 17, 2012, 12:14:32 AM
Wow, that is a tight OP. Super-good. This is the kind of shit that I wish I could read aloud to my sociology class.
:oops:
Feel free.
There's more coming.
Quote from: Nigel on April 17, 2012, 12:14:32 AM
Wow, that is a tight OP. Super-good. This is the kind of shit that I wish I could read aloud to my sociology class.
Those rants oughta be a required course.
Recently had to have this conversation.
With my 7 year old.
:horrormirth:
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on April 17, 2012, 05:16:17 AM
Recently had to have this conversation.
With my 7 year old.
:horrormirth:
Think this is good for Common Walls?
Holy shit. They've gone berserk. :lulz:
I swear to all that is fucking holy, I will fucking have an aneurism from the sheer stupidity and denial over there.
My initial thought would be to try and avoid the good vs. Evil trap. To transition out of binary thought, however, I cannot categorically exclude dualism by simply trading it for dogma. One possibly fundamental misattribution I sometimes entertain is that "evil" signals a systemic problem. I cannot countenance that evil is necessary to further any aim, be it biological or teleological. The problem is that thinking about "it" and beyond is hard, in particular when the evil at hand calls one to think out of personal concern, of course. The difficulty with this is that all affronts to the nature of care are personal and violent, on different levels. Just thinking about it can cause some to react violently, which does not always help the swelling... Cultivating the ability to discern the meaningful differences of a situation while driving a broken bus of wounded soldiers under fire in enemy territory maybe is not for everyone?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 17, 2012, 01:59:27 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on April 17, 2012, 05:16:17 AM
Recently had to have this conversation.
With my 7 year old.
:horrormirth:
Think this is good for Common Walls?
There's been a common thread running through a lot of conversations lately about how many of us are part of a country or a society that condones terrible acts and the feeling of impotent rage and heartbreak that comes from not seeing a way that we can change that fact. It's directly related to Occupy and the Arab Spring, riots in London, and the increasingly shrill noises coming out of political camps. People know something is
not right and they're looking to someone to make it better.
Only we don't have anyone who can make it better. No one's steering the train.