Something I came across in a BBC article on autistic schools:
QuoteFor reasons that aren't fully understood, diagnosis rates for autism have gone steadily upward in America in recent years. New Jersey is at the forefront of the trend. Latest figures put the autism rates among boys in New Jersey at one in 29 (rates for girls tend to be much lower).
Despite its increasing levels of diagnosis, autism is still poorly understood. Indeed, it is not clear if the real rates of autism are climbing. Some say there are more cases due to improved detection, or, some believe, an overly expanded set of criteria.
1/29 still seems amazingly high. Improved detection may play a role in this, but that would still be far above the average.
The CDC statistics would seem to back me up, here. http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html
QuoteAbout 1 in 88 children has been identified with an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) according to estimates from CDC's Autism and Developmental Disabilities Monitoring (ADDM) Network.
QuoteStudies in Asia, Europe, and North America have identified individuals with an ASD with an average prevalence of about 1%. A recent study in South Korea reported a prevalence of 2.6%.
It could be that an overly expanded criterea, plus increased detection methods are both contributing to the inflated numbers in New Jersey in particular.
We know ASD is mostly genetic, but the pre-natal environment may also play a role. I doubt New Jersey varies highly from the rest of America in a genetic sense (guidos aside) or in terms of pre-natal care.
I guess I'm asking are there any valid theories beyond better detection and misdiagnosis which could explain such a large number of ASD attributions in the state?
i recently heard on the radio there is a theory that perhaps diabeetus in the mother is a contributing factor.
wow.
1 in 29 seems crazy. did the bbc story give rates elsewhere in the US from their source?
and why do rates for girls tend to be lower?
hmm.. if they are including assburgers, then it would seem that the culture of the people in a location, and their tendency to seek special treatment for their special little snowflake, might have an impact on the rates?
I can't offer any alternative hypotheses other than expanded criteria/overdiagnosis. It strikes me similar as everybody seeming to have ADD in high school. But then again, we don't know what really causes it, so I can't say one way or the other.
No idea. Thimerosal's been debunked, but I wouldn't be too quick to say it's just better screening/increase in diagnosis when there could be something else in the environment/food supply/whatever causing it.
Quote from: Iptuous on April 19, 2012, 03:04:01 PM
wow.
1 in 29 seems crazy. did the bbc story give rates elsewhere in the US from their source?
and why do rates for girls tend to be lower?
hmm.. if they are including assburgers, then it would seem that the culture of the people in a location, and their tendency to seek special treatment for their special little snowflake, might have an impact on the rates?
No, it was a piece by Louis Theroux, about a documentary he's going to be airing on the BBC soon.
As for the rates for girls....no-one knows, although it seems a well-established phenomenon.
And yes, I did wonder about Aspergers and how that might factor into all this.
My hypothesis is that it's caused by environmental factors.
One that comes to mind is that kids are raised by the Xbox and the TV now more than ever.
I have no proof for this being a cause, mind you. It's just an idea.
There's that Cornell study (http://forum.johnson.cornell.edu/faculty/waldman/autism-waldman-nicholson-adilov.pdf) that found that:
autism-diagnosis rates began to increase dramatically around the same time that cable TV was introduced in the United States, and counties with greater access to cable TV saw greater increases in autism diagnosis.
autism-diagnosis rates have increased faster in rainier parts of the country, which have shown a positive correlation to early childhood TV exposure.
Quote from: Cain on April 19, 2012, 07:08:21 PM
As for the rates for girls....no-one knows, although it seems a well-established phenomenon.
One explanation I heard is that when it occurs in girls, the symptoms aren't as apparent as with boys. Also partly due to gender expectations, I think.
But going on the TV/xbox/computer angle ... How does that exposure compare between boys and girls? Do girls watch as much TV? (probably) but do they play as much video games? I'm fairly sure they don't spend as much time in front of the computer as boys. The gap's probably closing a bit in recent years with computers and Internet being very ubiquitous, though.
Quote from: Cain on April 19, 2012, 10:21:53 AM
Something I came across in a BBC article on autistic schools:
QuoteFor reasons that aren't fully understood, diagnosis rates for autism have gone steadily upward in America in recent years. New Jersey is at the forefront of the trend. Latest figures put the autism rates among boys in New Jersey at one in 29 (rates for girls tend to be much lower).
Despite its increasing levels of diagnosis, autism is still poorly understood. Indeed, it is not clear if the real rates of autism are climbing. Some say there are more cases due to improved detection, or, some believe, an overly expanded set of criteria.
1/29 still seems amazingly high. Improved detection may play a role in this, but that would still be far above the average.
The CDC statistics would seem to back me up, here. http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html
QuoteAbout 1 in 88 children has been identified with an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) according to estimates from CDC's Autism and Developmental Disabilities Monitoring (ADDM) Network.
QuoteStudies in Asia, Europe, and North America have identified individuals with an ASD with an average prevalence of about 1%. A recent study in South Korea reported a prevalence of 2.6%.
It could be that an overly expanded criterea, plus increased detection methods are both contributing to the inflated numbers in New Jersey in particular.
We know ASD is mostly genetic, but the pre-natal environment may also play a role. I doubt New Jersey varies highly from the rest of America in a genetic sense (guidos aside) or in terms of pre-natal care.
I guess I'm asking are there any valid theories beyond better detection and misdiagnosis which could explain such a large number of ASD attributions in the state?
I have a feeling that "better" detection and misdiagnosis, along with expanded criteria (Asperger's anyone?) is the cause. I can't think of any other reason New Jersey would be higher than the rest of the country.
Autism in girls is very often misdiagnosed as schizophrenia (though cross-diagnoses with schizophrenia are actually common in both genders)*. The increasing stigma of schizophrenia and the decreasing stigma of autism may contribute strongly to the changing numbers.
Tangentially, in the coming DSM, all autistic spectrum disorders are being recategorized under a single heading. On the one hand, this eliminates more or less useless distinctions like those between Asperger's Syndrome, HFA, and PDD. On the other hand, this eliminates more extreme distinctions: someone with PDD and an IQ of 175 is classed the same as someone with Rett's Syndrome and an IQ of 60. As a result, autistics on the internet (a notoriously emotionally volatile group) are kicking up a shitstorm on both sides of the issue, and have been for several years.
* This is not as shocking as it might first appear. Use of neologisms and disordered speech are considered to be indicative of schizophrenia. Use of unusual words and elaborately structured speech are common among subjects on the high-functioning end of the autistic spectrum. Strange obsessions, emotional volatility, and flattened/wrong affect are associated with both. So, a shrink who is more familiar with schizophrenia than with autism is likely to diagnose a high-functioning autistic as a schizophrenic, and a shrink unfamiliar with the specialized terminology of a particular field of interest to an autistic subject is even more likely to misdiagnose. A shrink aware of this situation (as many now are) may compensate erronously, and diagnose a schizophrenic with a spectrum disorder.
Hmmm, LO was diagnosed with "an unspecified pervasive developmental delay" a few years ago. She seems to have a sort of sensory integration disorder which I suspect she inherited from her dad.
She doesn't really fit the criteria for anything in the autism spectrum, but I suspect she'll get lumped in there anyway.
What problems is she experiencing, specifically?
:?
Quote from: Iptuous on April 20, 2012, 12:47:27 AM
What problems is she experiencing, specifically?
:?
Extreme weirdness.
Hard to explain. You'd have to meet her. Nobody can figure out exactly what's "wrong" with her, only that she's definitely different from other children.
I'd slap a ribbon on her, rather than a label, myself...
:)
Quote from: Iptuous on April 20, 2012, 01:31:31 AM
I'd slap a ribbon on her, rather than a label, myself...
:)
I know you mean well, but honestly that kind of facile comment/judgement from a completely disconnected person who has never met my daughter and has absolutely no idea what she may be dealing with really rubs me the wrong way. I thought I was crazy, like really for real irredeemably crazy, for much of my life before I talked to my doctor about what I was experiencing and found out that I'm epileptic, and the electrical storms in my temporal lobes cause perception shifts and erratic emotions and behavior prior to and during a seizure cluster, and memory loss after a seizure cluster.
How about another example? I thought I had an anxiety disorder, but it turns out that the reason my heart races and I feel faint and shaky and panicked sometimes is because I have a heart problem. Proper medical evaluation taught me that, not slapping a ribbon on me and calling me a special snowflake. So, as a parent, I'm going to make damn sure that LO gets proper medical evaluation wherever possible, in case the reality is that her odd behavior is caused by a physiological issue that can be monitored and/or treated, or at least understood.
My apollogies. :oops:
i thought by the fact that you put 'wrong' in quotes, and that there isn't anything specific to point at, other than 'different from the other children', that you were saying that you felt the diagnosis was undue.
i meant my comment as supportive.
again, sorry.
Quote from: Iptuous on April 20, 2012, 02:45:52 AM
My apollogies. :oops:
i thought by the fact that you put 'wrong' in quotes, and that there isn't anything specific to point at, other than 'different from the other children', that you were saying that you felt the diagnosis was undue.
i meant my comment as supportive.
again, sorry.
OK, I understand and accept your apology. It's just a bit of a sore spot for me... lots of people who are outsiders to other people's lives and processes, making proclamations like "autism is overdiagnosed", "there's nothing wrong with those kids, they're just spoiled", etc. etc.
I'm not saying that's what you did, just that it's a hot button for me. A close friend of mine has an autistic son, and has dealt with people, including teachers, treating him in ways that are outright cruel because they were convinced that he was just spoiled or stubborn, and that they could train it out of him. She's dealt with people judging her mothering, assuming that he's the way he is because she
lets him get away with it. I've had people tell me things like "I would never tolerate that" and "you just have to lay down the law" when I told them about LO's screaming fits. She would scream for hours. Hours. Over things that were, at best, trivial. The being-killed kind of screaming that leaves your throat raw for days. I never figured out what they meant by that. How do you "not tolerate" that? By beating your child unconscious? Is that how you end up with those stories of 3-year-olds with multiple broken bones, because parents were "refusing to tolerate" screaming and crying? So, I've been judged for walking out of the room, closing the door, and going outside to sit on the front porch to shake and cry, because that was, according to the kind of Internet logic that doesn't even have to be there to make a diagnosis, too permissive. Too lenient.
I put "wrong" in quotes because we really have no idea what's going on. One neurologist thought she might have auditory processing disorder because you can speak to her and she will often not understand what you said... but the doctor was unable to confirm it. There's an element to it that seems like spacing out, and an element to it that seems like she may be organizing her thoughts completely differently.
The other day she asked me a question, and the answer was not a straightforward yes or no, it was "if, then...". She was not OK with that, and we had a lengthy and heated conversation until I figured out how to phrase it in a way that was acceptable to her. That kind of behavior is similar to autism. But she is also very affectionate and cuddly, which is atypical for autism.
Is there something wrong? I have no idea. Possibly. Possibly not. She could be having micro-seizures, or she could be so brilliant that it's hard for her to relate to the world as the rest of us do, or she could have an autism spectrum disorder, or she could just be incredibly socially awkward, or it could be something else entirely.
Quote from: Nigel on April 20, 2012, 12:58:35 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on April 20, 2012, 12:47:27 AM
What problems is she experiencing, specifically?
:?
Extreme weirdness.
Hard to explain. You'd have to meet her. Nobody can figure out exactly what's "wrong" with her, only that she's definitely different from other children.
My son has a PDD diagnosis and he's
not autism spectrum. His neurologist explained to me (adamantly) when he was little that it's a blanket term. He has
some symptoms of ADHD, OCD, etc. but he doesn't fit ANY of them, hence the PDD diagnosis. His ablities fall in a "wide scatter" meaning he's way ahead of the curve in some things and slow in others. When he was little I had to take him to speech therapy twice a week to teach him how to talk, he didn't pick it up on his own. Probably MUCH worse than LO, but still not autism. Some kind of communication disorder, funny wiring. (Good thing we were in MA then and he could get services because he's have been screwed in TX) He's outgrown a lot of his problems, has a job and his own place and is generally doing ok but he's always going to be a little weird. But he's never been considered austistic or asperger's.
I
have seen references to PDD as part of the austism spectrum but it's either a mistake or there's two different things called "PDD".
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 20, 2012, 03:23:11 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 20, 2012, 12:58:35 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on April 20, 2012, 12:47:27 AM
What problems is she experiencing, specifically?
:?
Extreme weirdness.
Hard to explain. You'd have to meet her. Nobody can figure out exactly what's "wrong" with her, only that she's definitely different from other children.
My son has a PDD diagnosis and he's not autism spectrum. His neurologist explained to me (adamantly) when he was little that it's a blanket term. He has some symptoms of ADHD, OCD, etc. but he doesn't fit ANY of them, hence the PDD diagnosis. His ablities fall in a "wide scatter" meaning he's way ahead of the curve in some things and slow in others. When he was little I had to take him to speech therapy twice a week to teach him how to talk, he didn't pick it up on his own. Probably MUCH worse than LO, but still not autism. Some kind of communication disorder, funny wiring. (Good thing we were in MA then and he could get services because he's have been screwed in TX) He's outgrown a lot of his problems, has a job and his own place and is generally doing ok but he's always going to be a little weird. But he's never been considered austistic or asperger's.
I have seen references to PDD as part of the austism spectrum but it's either a mistake or there's two different things called "PDD".
My understanding is that PDD is being merged into the autism spectrum-disorder category.
Quote from: Nigel on April 20, 2012, 03:17:06 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on April 20, 2012, 02:45:52 AM
My apollogies. :oops:
i thought by the fact that you put 'wrong' in quotes, and that there isn't anything specific to point at, other than 'different from the other children', that you were saying that you felt the diagnosis was undue.
i meant my comment as supportive.
again, sorry.
OK, I understand and accept your apology. It's just a bit of a sore spot for me... lots of people who are outsiders to other people's lives and processes, making proclamations like "autism is overdiagnosed", "there's nothing wrong with those kids, they're just spoiled", etc. etc.
I'm not saying that's what you did, just that it's a hot button for me. A close friend of mine has an autistic son, and has dealt with people, including teachers, treating him in ways that are outright cruel because they were convinced that he was just spoiled or stubborn, and that they could train it out of him. She's dealt with people judging her mothering, assuming that he's the way he is because she lets him get away with it. I've had people tell me things like "I would never tolerate that" and "you just have to lay down the law" when I told them about LO's screaming fits. She would scream for hours. Hours. Over things that were, at best, trivial. The being-killed kind of screaming that leaves your throat raw for days. I never figured out what they meant by that. How do you "not tolerate" that? By beating your child unconscious? Is that how you end up with those stories of 3-year-olds with multiple broken bones, because parents were "refusing to tolerate" screaming and crying? So, I've been judged for walking out of the room, closing the door, and going outside to sit on the front porch to shake and cry, because that was, according to the kind of Internet logic that doesn't even have to be there to make a diagnosis, too permissive. Too lenient.
THIS. Times, like, 1,000,000,000.
Quote
I put "wrong" in quotes because we really have no idea what's going on. One neurologist thought she might have auditory processing disorder because you can speak to her and she will often not understand what you said... but the doctor was unable to confirm it. There's an element to it that seems like spacing out, and an element to it that seems like she may be organizing her thoughts completely differently.
The other day she asked me a question, and the answer was not a straightforward yes or no, it was "if, then...". She was not OK with that, and we had a lengthy and heated conversation until I figured out how to phrase it in a way that was acceptable to her. That kind of behavior is similar to autism. But she is also very affectionate and cuddly, which is atypical for autism.
You do have to phrase things a certain way, and these kids have eccentricities that nobody gets.
For a long time, when I asked my son to do something, he'd say "No" and then do it anyway. He just had to get that "no" in there to let you know he wasn't pleased, but he'd cooperate.
Teachers couldn't comprehend this. He caught a lot of unnecessary hell until he finally outgrew that. I had to go to the school all the time and fight the ignoant cunts and get called into question because I "let him get away with that".
QuoteIs there something wrong? I have no idea. Possibly. Possibly not. She could be having micro-seizures, or she could be so brilliant that it's hard for her to relate to the world as the rest of us do, or she could have an autism spectrum disorder, or she could just be incredibly socially awkward, or it could be something else entirely.
Have you taken her to a pediatric neurologist? That's where we finally got something to work with...
Quote from: Nigel on April 20, 2012, 03:27:55 AM
Quote from: Anna Mae Bollocks on April 20, 2012, 03:23:11 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 20, 2012, 12:58:35 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on April 20, 2012, 12:47:27 AM
What problems is she experiencing, specifically?
:?
Extreme weirdness.
Hard to explain. You'd have to meet her. Nobody can figure out exactly what's "wrong" with her, only that she's definitely different from other children.
My son has a PDD diagnosis and he's not autism spectrum. His neurologist explained to me (adamantly) when he was little that it's a blanket term. He has some symptoms of ADHD, OCD, etc. but he doesn't fit ANY of them, hence the PDD diagnosis. His ablities fall in a "wide scatter" meaning he's way ahead of the curve in some things and slow in others. When he was little I had to take him to speech therapy twice a week to teach him how to talk, he didn't pick it up on his own. Probably MUCH worse than LO, but still not autism. Some kind of communication disorder, funny wiring. (Good thing we were in MA then and he could get services because he's have been screwed in TX) He's outgrown a lot of his problems, has a job and his own place and is generally doing ok but he's always going to be a little weird. But he's never been considered austistic or asperger's.
I have seen references to PDD as part of the austism spectrum but it's either a mistake or there's two different things called "PDD".
My understanding is that PDD is being merged into the autism spectrum-disorder category.
It shouldn't be. Like you said, these kids are usually affectionate and outgoing. The only time my son tuned anything out was when he was hyperfocused on something else.
Yes, she has seen two pediatric neurologists. I would like to have her screened for epilepsy as well, even though I know it's not usually hereditary. She is much easier as she gets older, but I do worry that she will always have a hard time forming friendships. Luckily, E.O.T.s kids are also weird, and they love her. :lol:
I think the reason they are lumping them together is because it fits with autism as a spectrum disorder, and because it's part of a spectrum disorder, some kids will be toward the affectionate end of the spectrum, and others will be toward the other end.
I remember when my kid was going for DEC evals, they wrote everything up with a really dire spin and explained that it was to help him qualify for more services, MA was great that way. So that could be an upside to it, but "autism" is a hell of a label for somebody who's already having social difficulties because they're wired differently.
Definitely rule out the epilepsy, if only for your own peace of mind.
Quote from: Triple Zero on April 19, 2012, 08:06:30 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 19, 2012, 07:08:21 PM
As for the rates for girls....no-one knows, although it seems a well-established phenomenon.
One explanation I heard is that when it occurs in girls, the symptoms aren't as apparent as with boys. Also partly due to gender expectations, I think.
But going on the TV/xbox/computer angle ... How does that exposure compare between boys and girls? Do girls watch as much TV? (probably) but do they play as much video games? I'm fairly sure they don't spend as much time in front of the computer as boys. The gap's probably closing a bit in recent years with computers and Internet being very ubiquitous, though.
I highly doubt the tv/xbox angle, if only because autism manifests really early. Speech delays are really common in ASD (I think they're actually required for a standard autism diagnosis?) - which means that autism has existed in a strong enough form to cause learning disability before babies normally start learning to speak. It's really, really hard to play XBox with pre-speech motor skills.
As for the gender expectations - are you sure? I'd (naively) think that the whole social learning disability would stand out even more with young girls. Or does autism actually manifest with different symptoms in girls? Also keep in mind that us guys all have genetic damage in that our Y chromosome is shitty compared to an X. On the other hand I haven't heard if any of the however many scores of autism-related genes they've found now are X-Y linked; on the other-other hand we haven't found any genes that have more than a slight correlation with autism. Which means that we have no idea what causes it, other than "highly hereditable and mostly in boys."
QuoteIt's really, really hard to play XBox with pre-speech motor skills.
It isn't strictly xbox he means. Video games in general.
Quote from: Iptuous on April 19, 2012, 03:04:01 PM
and why do rates for girls tend to be lower?
I did a project looking for environmental factors linked to autism (specifically pesticides) back in 2007 -- the research we were reading at the time suggested it had something to do with estrogen. *shrug* Dunno if that's been debunked or not. I haven't really kept up with it, but that was what we were hearing.
There is also some evidence showing links between organophosphates and autism. (http://www.pesticide.org/the-buzz/autism-linked-to-maternal-exposure-to-pesticides)
QuoteA new study on children born in California's Central Valley suggests that autism in those children might be linked to prenatal exposure to two insecticides used on fields near their mothers' homes.
Autism Linked to Maternal Exposure to Pesticides
A new study on children born in California's Central Valley suggests that autism in those children might be linked to prenatal exposure to two insecticides used on fields near their mothers' homes.
Cases of autism and related disorders were associated with maternal exposure to applications of dicofol and endosulfan during early pregnancy. The rate of autism increased as amounts of these pesticides increased. Distance of the mother's residence was also a factor, with cases of autism decreasing the farther away from the fields that she lived.
Children were six times more likely to have been diagnosed with autism if their mothers had spent early pregnancy in homes within 500 meters (547 yards) of fields with the highest levels of dicofol and endosulfan applications when compared to a group whose mothers did not live near agricultural fields.
Autism is characterized as a neurodevelopmental disorder. California researchers wanted to test the idea that pesticide exposure from living near agricultural fields during pregnancy might contribute to problems with fetal development of the nervous system. They conducted this exploratory study using information gleaned from several state databases, focusing on children born in the Central Valley, an agricultural region. After identifying children who had been diagnosed with autism, they matched the mothers' addresses to agricultural activity in the area. They then honed in on specific pesticides that had been used nearby during the mother's first eight weeks of pregnancy. For comparison, they used information about children born in this region who had not been identified as autistic.
It would not have seemed surprising if organophosphate insecticides had been associated with cases of autism, since organophosphates are well known for their toxicity to the nervous system. But in this study, only dicofol and endosulfan, which belong to the organochlorine* chemical family, were linked to cases of autism. Researchers cautioned that this connection needed further study.
*DDT, chlordane and other organochlorine insecticides have been banned in the United States. Since the EPA issued cancellation orders for lindane in 2006, dicofol and endosulfan are the only remaining organochlorines registered for pesticide use. The FDA still permits the use of lindane for treatment of head lice.
I checked and endosulfan and dicofol are used in crops in Jersey. (http://www.state.nj.us/dep/enforcement/pcp/bpc/wps/ops.pdf) I was unable to find a landuse map to tell you how much of the state is used for farming but based on what some of their biggest exports are, I feel pretty comfortable saying that kids are probably exposed to it. *shrug* If there's a link, there you go.
That's pretty interesting. I hope it's explored with further study.
Quote from: Nigel on April 20, 2012, 03:17:06 AM
A close friend of mine has an autistic son, and has dealt with people, including teachers, treating him in ways that are outright cruel because they were convinced that he was just spoiled or stubborn, and that they could train it out of him. She's dealt with people judging her mothering, assuming that he's the way he is because she lets him get away with it.
I think I observed this sort of thing on the MAX today.
A woman and a teenage boy sat down across the aisle from me. I couldn't help but notice that the kid was not normal and got the vibe that he had autism. I've been around autistic people a number of times, but I also have always felt an odd connection to them—as though I have some intuitive understanding of their weirdness. Anyway, I formed this impression of the boy and the woman and carried on looking out the window nearby them looking for good surfaces for posters and graphics. Not far before I'm about to get off the train the boy abruptly leans over so he can see me, looks directly into my eyes and does a funny wave. So I smile and do a similar wave back. A moment later he does the same thing, smiling this time. The woman looks embarrassed and gently grabs his hand pushes it down onto his lap. She didn't even glance over to see who he was waving at. But the kid seems to have taken a liking to me and keeps leaning forward with a grin on his face, looking at me right in the eye and waving—and the woman keeps softly grabbing his hand and forcing it down. I wave back each time. Not once does the woman even look to see who he's waving at and seems to be getting more and more embarrassed as this little dynamic continues.
I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt, but I can't imagine what would justify her behavior. Even if the kid was previously being a complete shit, why would a caretaker, relative, or mother do that? WTF? I couldn't come up with any reasoning that made sense. Maybe it's my brain trying to make a bad "train" pun, but the idea that she was training autism out of him really seems to fit. It has the tinny ring of truth.
What I witness in schools around here (and where I am isn't exactly the cutting edge of education, just by virtue of being out in woop woop), things aren't bad in schools. We get a lot of kids with a plethora of issues. I think I have three or four all up with Austism. When I taught at tiny back of the bush schools I had three schools with one heavily autistic kid in each (though that may be to do with less remote area having more access to special needs education.)
Generally we're pretty good at saying 'well, Fred is Fred, and this is what works with him', whether or not there's an existing diagnosis. I've also had a lot of conversations along the lines of
'What's the story with Fred?'
'He's not diagnosed with anything'
'Probably autistic?'
'Yes.'
I don't think there's too much judgment of parents with unknown issues with the kids. At any school you see parents with questionable practices, but it's pretty rare to see a kid with behavioural issues straight up blamed on parents unless there's a good reason to suspect so.
I think Enki's point may have something to do with it; we refer mainly to ASD (Austistic Spectrum Disorder - which includes Asperegers) so there's a culture of understanding ASD could mean punching a hole in the wall because somebody upset them, or it could mean effectively, not much different to any other student.
If the matter is actually (and just from this conversation, I wouldn't be convinced yet) that ASD is actually happening more, then I'm surprised, and not at all sure what it means.
Quote from: Nigel on April 20, 2012, 12:58:35 AM
Quote from: Iptuous on April 20, 2012, 12:47:27 AM
What problems is she experiencing, specifically?
:?
Extreme weirdness.
Hard to explain. You'd have to meet her. Nobody can figure out exactly what's "wrong" with her, only that she's definitely different from other children.
My son was like that, from ages 3-11. Occasionally did inappropriate things (getting down on hands and knees to study a bug in a store, etc), responded to us, but when left alone was in his own world (which apparently involved John phillips Sousa-esque marching bands), etc.
Due to two of my cousins having autism, The Terrible Old Man suggested that might be the case. It's the only time I ever lost my temper with the old Hessian.
He responded to us and others. He wasn't autistic. He just had more curiousity and imagination than social graces.
Don't let the bastards label LO. Just my advice.
Quote from: Net on April 20, 2012, 10:12:59 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 20, 2012, 03:17:06 AM
A close friend of mine has an autistic son, and has dealt with people, including teachers, treating him in ways that are outright cruel because they were convinced that he was just spoiled or stubborn, and that they could train it out of him. She's dealt with people judging her mothering, assuming that he's the way he is because she lets him get away with it.
I think I observed this sort of thing on the MAX today.
A woman and a teenage boy sat down across the aisle from me. I couldn't help but notice that the kid was not normal and got the vibe that he had autism. I've been around autistic people a number of times, but I also have always felt an odd connection to them—as though I have some intuitive understanding of their weirdness. Anyway, I formed this impression of the boy and the woman and carried on looking out the window nearby them looking for good surfaces for posters and graphics. Not far before I'm about to get off the train the boy abruptly leans over so he can see me, looks directly into my eyes and does a funny wave. So I smile and do a similar wave back. A moment later he does the same thing, smiling this time. The woman looks embarrassed and gently grabs his hand pushes it down onto his lap. She didn't even glance over to see who he was waving at. But the kid seems to have taken a liking to me and keeps leaning forward with a grin on his face, looking at me right in the eye and waving—and the woman keeps softly grabbing his hand and forcing it down. I wave back each time. Not once does the woman even look to see who he's waving at and seems to be getting more and more embarrassed as this little dynamic continues.
I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt, but I can't imagine what would justify her behavior. Even if the kid was previously being a complete shit, why would a caretaker, relative, or mother do that? WTF? I couldn't come up with any reasoning that made sense. Maybe it's my brain trying to make a bad "train" pun, but the idea that she was training autism out of him really seems to fit. It has the tinny ring of truth.
The thing is, you
don't know. You just don't. It's natural to try to make sense of it and to come up with explanations that fit with your observations, but with such a brief period of observation you really have no idea what you were seeing, and less idea why she was reacting that way.
Quote from: Nigel on April 20, 2012, 03:02:10 PM
Quote from: Net on April 20, 2012, 10:12:59 AM
Quote from: Nigel on April 20, 2012, 03:17:06 AM
A close friend of mine has an autistic son, and has dealt with people, including teachers, treating him in ways that are outright cruel because they were convinced that he was just spoiled or stubborn, and that they could train it out of him. She's dealt with people judging her mothering, assuming that he's the way he is because she lets him get away with it.
I think I observed this sort of thing on the MAX today.
A woman and a teenage boy sat down across the aisle from me. I couldn't help but notice that the kid was not normal and got the vibe that he had autism. I've been around autistic people a number of times, but I also have always felt an odd connection to them—as though I have some intuitive understanding of their weirdness. Anyway, I formed this impression of the boy and the woman and carried on looking out the window nearby them looking for good surfaces for posters and graphics. Not far before I'm about to get off the train the boy abruptly leans over so he can see me, looks directly into my eyes and does a funny wave. So I smile and do a similar wave back. A moment later he does the same thing, smiling this time. The woman looks embarrassed and gently grabs his hand pushes it down onto his lap. She didn't even glance over to see who he was waving at. But the kid seems to have taken a liking to me and keeps leaning forward with a grin on his face, looking at me right in the eye and waving—and the woman keeps softly grabbing his hand and forcing it down. I wave back each time. Not once does the woman even look to see who he's waving at and seems to be getting more and more embarrassed as this little dynamic continues.
I tried to give her the benefit of the doubt, but I can't imagine what would justify her behavior. Even if the kid was previously being a complete shit, why would a caretaker, relative, or mother do that? WTF? I couldn't come up with any reasoning that made sense. Maybe it's my brain trying to make a bad "train" pun, but the idea that she was training autism out of him really seems to fit. It has the tinny ring of truth.
The thing is, you don't know. You just don't. It's natural to try to make sense of it and to come up with explanations that fit with your observations, but with such a brief period of observation you really have no idea what you were seeing, and less idea why she was reacting that way.
Grief, maybe.
As far as labeling goes, I have issues with things like tracking in schools and know that schools are problematic. However, on the flip side, sometimes that diagnostic label is the only thing that forces resistant teachers to make individual allowances... which they should be making for every child, but unfortunately many teachers are more interested in consistency and authority than in individuality. "Autism" may be the label that prevents the "bad kid" label from getting slapped on that kid's file.
I tend to think that the resistance to labeling is more about the parents' egos than the children's well-being, anyway. My brother was diagnosed with high-functioning autism as an adult, and he felt so relieved... he didn't feel like he had a label, he felt like he had an explanation, and a source of information that he and his wife could refer to. An autistic adult friend here in Portland also has no issues with that "label". Why should they? Any more than I have issues with being labeled "epileptic"?
Autistic children have so much going on already. They know they're different, and may or may not care. My suspicion is that that worry about "labeling" them has everything to do with parents' aversion to their child being considered "defective" and next to nothing to do with the child having issues with the label. After all, take these same parents and I've never seen a single one of them object to their child being labeled "gifted".
I am far more concerned with making sure my child has appropriate medical or neurological assessment than in avoiding the stigma of a label, especially one that is protected by HIPAA. She may be brilliant. She may be retarded. I don't care, I just want her to grow up happy and with appropriate support.
Quote from: Nigel on April 20, 2012, 03:13:03 PM
As far as labeling goes, I have issues with things like tracking in schools and know that schools are problematic. However, on the flip side, sometimes that diagnostic label is the only thing that forces resistant teachers to make individual allowances... which they should be making for every child, but unfortunately many teachers are more interested in consistency and authority than in individuality. "Autism" may be the label that prevents the "bad kid" label from getting slapped on that kid's file.
Well, in my case - it may be very different for you and your family - I am damn glad I didn't allow the label, as my son turned out fine, and decided to join the Marines. If he had the autism thing in his records, that job - and many others - would be closed to him forever.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 20, 2012, 04:18:45 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 20, 2012, 03:13:03 PM
As far as labeling goes, I have issues with things like tracking in schools and know that schools are problematic. However, on the flip side, sometimes that diagnostic label is the only thing that forces resistant teachers to make individual allowances... which they should be making for every child, but unfortunately many teachers are more interested in consistency and authority than in individuality. "Autism" may be the label that prevents the "bad kid" label from getting slapped on that kid's file.
Well, in my case - it may be very different for you and your family - I am damn glad I didn't allow the label, as my son turned out fine, and decided to join the Marines. If he had the autism thing in his records, that job - and many others - would be closed to him forever.
Yes, but he's not autistic. He wouldn't have "the autism thing" in his records without being diagnosed with autism, and a diagnosis of autism takes pretty intensive screening by one or more neurologists. You don't end up with autism in your medical record just for being screened for it, any more than you end up with diabetes in your medical records just because you had a glucose test.
You keep saying "allow the label" like it's some sort of arbitrary sticky-tag some random entity wants to stick on kids. It's a neurological diagnosis. You, as a parent, don't "allow the label", you "accept the diagnosis" or else you get a "second opinion". Or you don't have your kid screened at all. Those are the options. Having your child diagnosed by a qualified professional and then ignoring/denying the diagnosis is not really good parenting, because a neurological condition isn't something a parent can make go away through willpower.
In your case, your grandpa suggested that you have your kid screened for autism. As a parent, your judgement was that there was nothing wrong and therefore no reason to have him screened. As he grew up fine and is not autistic, you saved yourself a potentially expensive series of wasted trips to the neurologist.
I'm not saying that erroneous diagnoses never happen... of course they do. Normally it's an issue of one disorder being mistaken for another, though, rather than a perfectly normal kid being diagnosed with a disorder. That happens too, but is rare. Autism is not a disorder that is treatable with pharmaceuticals, so the pervasive overdiagnosis that happens when there's a profit attached doesn't happen.
Quote from: Nigel on April 20, 2012, 04:32:19 PM
You keep saying "allow the label" like it's some sort of arbitrary sticky-tag some random entity wants to stick on kids. It's a neurological diagnosis. You, as a parent, don't "allow the label", you "accept the diagnosis" or else you get a "second opinion".
Good point. In my case, however, it WAS a label, as The Terrible Old Man was not in fact a practicing neurologist.
But your other point is well taken. The label would not have made a difference without a diagnosis.
Quote from: Triple Zero on April 19, 2012, 08:06:30 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 19, 2012, 07:08:21 PM
As for the rates for girls....no-one knows, although it seems a well-established phenomenon.
One explanation I heard is that when it occurs in girls, the symptoms aren't as apparent as with boys. Also partly due to gender expectations, I think.
This. I didn't find out I might've been AS all along until my little brother (19 years younger than I) was was diagnosed looong after I became an adult. SOME of our traits are shared but mainly, I was (and still am) the weird girl in school. I have learned to play up my eccentricities in a way that's now more palettable than just being an obnoxious, clueless jackass. I am sometimes oblivious to how I'm being perceived by others and oblivious to others' feelings at times due to a lowered ability to read their feelings.
I have no head for math but I "see" words in my head. I can't express myself well verbally and constantly get myself in trouble when I misspeak or say things that don't match what I mean but I'm fairly well-written. Words, puns amuse me. Shapes of words. I've always wondered if this was close to the experience many with AS have with numbers and math.
One thing about 'labels' in general is they can help an individual understand themselves. Like your story with Epilepsy Nigel, it sounds to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that finding an explanation for the difficulties you were having was a releif, not a burdan.
One of the reasons I have a MBPTI fetish is because finding that I was listed as INTP and reading the description thereof helped some parts of who I am make more sense to me.
Generally I find it frustrating the resistance to labels on the grounds that 'they're labels'. I'm a man, I'm INT type, I'm a childhood cancer survivor, I'm a teacher; but as long as I and the people around me accept that I'm 'Dingo', and these labels imply parts of me but do not define me, that's OK.
Quote from: Golden Applesauce on April 20, 2012, 04:31:12 AM
I highly doubt the tv/xbox angle, if only because autism manifests really early. Speech delays are really common in ASD (I think they're actually required for a standard autism diagnosis?) - which means that autism has existed in a strong enough form to cause learning disability before babies normally start learning to speak. It's really, really hard to play XBox with pre-speech motor skills.
I've heard jokes saying that the difference between a diagnosis of HFA and a diagnosis of Asperger's is that the person with HFA had a speech delay. But, I've also heard people say that the difference between a diagnosis of Asperger's and a diagnosis of PDD-NOS is whether or not the shrink considers 'autism' a stigmatic term.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on April 21, 2012, 05:04:36 AM
One thing about 'labels' in general is they can help an individual understand themselves. Like your story with Epilepsy Nigel, it sounds to me (correct me if I'm wrong) that finding an explanation for the difficulties you were having was a releif, not a burdan.
One of the reasons I have a MBPTI fetish is because finding that I was listed as INTP and reading the description thereof helped some parts of who I am make more sense to me.
Generally I find it frustrating the resistance to labels on the grounds that 'they're labels'. I'm a man, I'm INT type, I'm a childhood cancer survivor, I'm a teacher; but as long as I and the people around me accept that I'm 'Dingo', and these labels imply parts of me but do not define me, that's OK.
Yeah, I find that "label" is a tricky word. What is a label, other than a name for something? There are weird ways that people use these labels, too... look at people who make a single aspect of their reality into their whole identity. Two examples that come to mind are people who identify themselves by their chronic illness, and people who identify themselves by their sexuality. I might have epilepsy but it's not very defining of my personhood... it's not even in the top 100 things that would come to mind if I was asked to describe myself. Nor would ADHD or arrhythmia or sleeping with ladies or the scar on my left breast.
That said, there are sometimes valid reasons to avoid having a diagnosis in your medical records. For example, epilepsy is nowhere in my medical records, and the reason for this is that my doctor hesitates to officially record that diagnosis unless a patient needs medication, because people can lose their health and auto insurance. Because I have never had a grand mal seizure it seems like a pretty safe thing to omit from forms.
Ultimately, the problem with autistic spectrum disorders and many other, is that they simply describe the "symptoms". They don't actually diagnose the cause. And yet, these very shaky grounds are taken to write a manual which is treated in many circles as word of god.
So they're combining a whole bunch of different symptoms that were separate disorders under a single disorder. This re-categorization is about as physically relevant as changing Pluto to dwarf planet. It doesn't resolve the causes, it doesn't provide adequate treatment, it just switches the labels around. "OMG, we're going to combine PDD with AS, isn't that so much better? You get to be LABELED differently!"
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on April 21, 2012, 10:52:43 PM
Ultimately, the problem with autistic spectrum disorders and many other, is that they simply describe the "symptoms". They don't actually diagnose the cause. And yet, these very shaky grounds are taken to write a manual which is treated in many circles as word of god.
So they're combining a whole bunch of different symptoms that were separate disorders under a single disorder. This re-categorization is about as physically relevant as changing Pluto to dwarf planet. It doesn't resolve the causes, it doesn't provide adequate treatment, it just switches the labels around. "OMG, we're going to combine PDD with AS, isn't that so much better? You get to be LABELED differently!"
It's all part of the process of trying to understand it better. It's not arbitrary; it's a process, and hopefully every time they make these revisions they've gained a tiny bit more understanding about what it is they're trying to deal with.
This ties in quite closely with one of Roger's threads, the one about the lack advancement in psychology. Advances are being made, they're just moving very very slowly as the technology and theory to concretely understand brain processes develops. We are really only just now starting to have the technology to be able to look at the physical processes behind human behavior.
Quote from: Nigel on April 21, 2012, 11:01:19 PM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on April 21, 2012, 10:52:43 PM
Ultimately, the problem with autistic spectrum disorders and many other, is that they simply describe the "symptoms". They don't actually diagnose the cause. And yet, these very shaky grounds are taken to write a manual which is treated in many circles as word of god.
So they're combining a whole bunch of different symptoms that were separate disorders under a single disorder. This re-categorization is about as physically relevant as changing Pluto to dwarf planet. It doesn't resolve the causes, it doesn't provide adequate treatment, it just switches the labels around. "OMG, we're going to combine PDD with AS, isn't that so much better? You get to be LABELED differently!"
It's all part of the process of trying to understand it better. It's not arbitrary; it's a process, and hopefully every time they make these revisions they've gained a tiny bit more understanding about what it is they're trying to deal with.
At least Freudian analysis is dying away. That man was about as scientific as Ken Hovinid.
This (cramming more stuff under the one umbrella) is possibly a good thing as far as schools are concerned. A lot of teachers hear ADD and have a very set idea of what that looks like. Whereas you hear ASD and the first thought is 'OK, WHERE are they on the spectrum'; you're insulated against snap judgements.