Not to sound depressing, I do believe life can be enjoyable, and nowadays there are a lot of things that are a hundred times better than in the past, and while the situation is nowhere near to perfect, and is arguably good, it is not as bad as it once was.
But I have to ask where all of this is going. As this is a time of crisis.
And I do not say that the crisis will be the cause, but the excuse. I've noticed that extreme views have been rising exponentially, specially inside the governments.
I keep seeing these... signs. These opportunities for a trend of dictatorial governments and similars to arise across the globe, that will come with the passing of years, and this is bad. Really bad.
I need to ask, are we walking towards a dystopia?
I ain't walkin...too much effort. I'm thinking about ways to finance the extra $130K I need to trade in my Jeep Liberty for a brand-new H3 so I can roll over environmentalists and Occupiers and get there first.
Don't know. From recent posting here, it seems you may well already be in a dystopia if you are a black person moving into your own home in Georgia, or a black person in Florida skipping out for a packet of Skittles, for example.
I guess the state of surveillance and most people's acceptance of it as convenience makes me think we're headed for some form of Gibson-esque-ish dystopia. The Dictatorial governments across the globe are actually decreasing, but are being replaced by a dictatorship of the majority (ie. Westminster) in which some proprtion of the voting populace above 50% are happy to trade certain freedoms and rights for perceived increased security and fancier gizmo's.
I guess these are the "similars".
Quote from: Mistre on April 24, 2012, 04:30:02 AM
Not to sound depressing, I do believe life can be enjoyable, and nowadays there are a lot of things that are a hundred times better than in the past, and while the situation is nowhere near to perfect, and is arguably good, it is not as bad as it once was.
But I have to ask where all of this is going. As this is a time of crisis.
And I do not say that the crisis will be the cause, but the excuse. I've noticed that extreme views have been rising exponentially, specially inside the governments.
I keep seeing these... signs. These opportunities for a trend of dictatorial governments and similars to arise across the globe, that will come with the passing of years, and this is bad. Really bad.
I need to ask, are we walking towards a dystopia?
We're not walking, we're galloping.
And "governments" have absolutely nothing to do with it.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 01:47:50 PM
Quote from: Mistre on April 24, 2012, 04:30:02 AM
Not to sound depressing, I do believe life can be enjoyable, and nowadays there are a lot of things that are a hundred times better than in the past, and while the situation is nowhere near to perfect, and is arguably good, it is not as bad as it once was.
But I have to ask where all of this is going. As this is a time of crisis.
And I do not say that the crisis will be the cause, but the excuse. I've noticed that extreme views have been rising exponentially, specially inside the governments.
I keep seeing these... signs. These opportunities for a trend of dictatorial governments and similars to arise across the globe, that will come with the passing of years, and this is bad. Really bad.
I need to ask, are we walking towards a dystopia?
We're not walking, we're galloping.
And "governments" have absolutely nothing to do with it.
For once, I think I'm grimmer than you.
I'd say we're standing in it, and asking where dystopia is, and all of the dystopians are looking at us going, "what, are you retarded?"
I like to describe the US as a totalitarian democracy.
I believe that Dok and Twid are in the right direction here.
Me, I'm riding my motorcycle at 100 mph, playing my guitar. On the right side of the road, there's a mountain. On the left side, there's nothing. Dead ahead, Dystopia. And my e string just broke.
I don't know, it might be quite a way away, yet.
Waffle Iron,
Sitting atop a freakishly large pile of skulls playing Tiny Tim songs.
I would go one further from what Dok said,
We're not approaching a dystopia. We are living in a thanotopia. Rapidly burning out what is left of the world in a blip orgy of excess, its because we worship death. We as a society, as opposed to an individual level long for annihilation.
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on April 24, 2012, 04:34:11 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 01:47:50 PM
Quote from: Mistre on April 24, 2012, 04:30:02 AM
Not to sound depressing, I do believe life can be enjoyable, and nowadays there are a lot of things that are a hundred times better than in the past, and while the situation is nowhere near to perfect, and is arguably good, it is not as bad as it once was.
But I have to ask where all of this is going. As this is a time of crisis.
And I do not say that the crisis will be the cause, but the excuse. I've noticed that extreme views have been rising exponentially, specially inside the governments.
I keep seeing these... signs. These opportunities for a trend of dictatorial governments and similars to arise across the globe, that will come with the passing of years, and this is bad. Really bad.
I need to ask, are we walking towards a dystopia?
We're not walking, we're galloping.
And "governments" have absolutely nothing to do with it.
For once, I think I'm grimmer than you.
I'd say we're standing in it, and asking where dystopia is, and all of the dystopians are looking at us going, "what, are you retarded?"
I like to describe the US as a totalitarian democracy.
You're an optimist. The handbag is still in motion. Things can - and probably will - get a whole lot worse than this before you can really call it dystopia.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 04:49:21 PM
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on April 24, 2012, 04:34:11 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 01:47:50 PM
Quote from: Mistre on April 24, 2012, 04:30:02 AM
Not to sound depressing, I do believe life can be enjoyable, and nowadays there are a lot of things that are a hundred times better than in the past, and while the situation is nowhere near to perfect, and is arguably good, it is not as bad as it once was.
But I have to ask where all of this is going. As this is a time of crisis.
And I do not say that the crisis will be the cause, but the excuse. I've noticed that extreme views have been rising exponentially, specially inside the governments.
I keep seeing these... signs. These opportunities for a trend of dictatorial governments and similars to arise across the globe, that will come with the passing of years, and this is bad. Really bad.
I need to ask, are we walking towards a dystopia?
We're not walking, we're galloping.
And "governments" have absolutely nothing to do with it.
For once, I think I'm grimmer than you.
I'd say we're standing in it, and asking where dystopia is, and all of the dystopians are looking at us going, "what, are you retarded?"
I like to describe the US as a totalitarian democracy.
You're an optimist. The handbag is still in motion. Things can - and probably will - get a whole lot worse than this before you can really call it dystopia.
I dunno, man. This is the future and it looks more like a dystopian novel than Back to the Future II. But maybe that's me going it's already bad enough.
Quote from: Nephew Twiddleton on April 24, 2012, 04:55:33 PM
I dunno, man. This is the future and it looks more like a dystopian novel than Back to the Future II. But maybe that's me going it's already bad enough.
WE HAVE TO TAKE THIS SHIT TO THE WALL, RIDE THIS FUCKING TORPEDO TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN IT GETS WHERE IT'S GOING.
Nothing else will do. This future is frail and weak, and hardly real at all. If we're not careful, it will topple into smashed bits before it can be properly studied.
We're already in it, and there's no going back.
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 05:30:49 PM
We're already in it, and there's no going back.
I disagree on both counts.
It's gonna get worse, and it's not gonna last.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 05:32:09 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 05:30:49 PM
We're already in it, and there's no going back.
I disagree on both counts.
It's gonna get worse, and it's not gonna last.
I am not sure that's a disagreement. We're already in it, and it's going to get worse. There's no going back, and it's not gonna last.
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 06:26:56 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 05:32:09 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 05:30:49 PM
We're already in it, and there's no going back.
I disagree on both counts.
It's gonna get worse, and it's not gonna last.
I am not sure that's a disagreement. We're already in it, and it's going to get worse. There's no going back, and it's not gonna last.
Yep. Because the forces driving the dystopia aren't real.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 06:28:14 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 06:26:56 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 05:32:09 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 05:30:49 PM
We're already in it, and there's no going back.
I disagree on both counts.
It's gonna get worse, and it's not gonna last.
I am not sure that's a disagreement. We're already in it, and it's going to get worse. There's no going back, and it's not gonna last.
Yep. Because the forces driving the dystopia aren't real.
It's just us, demanding it. :lulz:
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 06:57:54 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 06:28:14 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 06:26:56 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 05:32:09 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 05:30:49 PM
We're already in it, and there's no going back.
I disagree on both counts.
It's gonna get worse, and it's not gonna last.
I am not sure that's a disagreement. We're already in it, and it's going to get worse. There's no going back, and it's not gonna last.
Yep. Because the forces driving the dystopia aren't real.
It's just us, demanding it. :lulz:
Yep. Eventually, we'll get what we've been screaming for, and then our grandchildren will have to revolt and hang a bunch of bankers.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 06:59:59 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 06:57:54 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 06:28:14 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 06:26:56 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 05:32:09 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 05:30:49 PM
We're already in it, and there's no going back.
I disagree on both counts.
It's gonna get worse, and it's not gonna last.
I am not sure that's a disagreement. We're already in it, and it's going to get worse. There's no going back, and it's not gonna last.
Yep. Because the forces driving the dystopia aren't real.
It's just us, demanding it. :lulz:
Yep. Eventually, we'll get what we've been screaming for, and then our grandchildren will have to revolt and hang a bunch of bankers.
There will come a time when the history books will say things like "Why didn't people stop it from happening?"
And no one will be left to explain that we didn't stop it because WE BEGGED FOR IT.
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 07:24:46 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 06:59:59 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 06:57:54 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 06:28:14 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 06:26:56 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 05:32:09 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 05:30:49 PM
We're already in it, and there's no going back.
I disagree on both counts.
It's gonna get worse, and it's not gonna last.
I am not sure that's a disagreement. We're already in it, and it's going to get worse. There's no going back, and it's not gonna last.
Yep. Because the forces driving the dystopia aren't real.
It's just us, demanding it. :lulz:
Yep. Eventually, we'll get what we've been screaming for, and then our grandchildren will have to revolt and hang a bunch of bankers.
There will come a time when the history books will say things like "Why didn't people stop it from happening?"
And no one will be left to explain that we didn't stop it because WE BEGGED FOR IT.
We laugh at the Romans for putting lead in their plumbing. I wonder what interesting things our descendants will laugh at us for, things that seemed totally harmless to us?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 07:29:16 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 07:24:46 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 06:59:59 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 06:57:54 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 06:28:14 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 06:26:56 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 05:32:09 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 05:30:49 PM
We're already in it, and there's no going back.
I disagree on both counts.
It's gonna get worse, and it's not gonna last.
I am not sure that's a disagreement. We're already in it, and it's going to get worse. There's no going back, and it's not gonna last.
Yep. Because the forces driving the dystopia aren't real.
It's just us, demanding it. :lulz:
Yep. Eventually, we'll get what we've been screaming for, and then our grandchildren will have to revolt and hang a bunch of bankers.
There will come a time when the history books will say things like "Why didn't people stop it from happening?"
And no one will be left to explain that we didn't stop it because WE BEGGED FOR IT.
We laugh at the Romans for putting lead in their plumbing. I wonder what interesting things our descendants will laugh at us for, things that seemed totally harmless to us?
Corporations.
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 07:42:37 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 07:29:16 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 07:24:46 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 06:59:59 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 06:57:54 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 06:28:14 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 06:26:56 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 24, 2012, 05:32:09 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 24, 2012, 05:30:49 PM
We're already in it, and there's no going back.
I disagree on both counts.
It's gonna get worse, and it's not gonna last.
I am not sure that's a disagreement. We're already in it, and it's going to get worse. There's no going back, and it's not gonna last.
Yep. Because the forces driving the dystopia aren't real.
It's just us, demanding it. :lulz:
Yep. Eventually, we'll get what we've been screaming for, and then our grandchildren will have to revolt and hang a bunch of bankers.
There will come a time when the history books will say things like "Why didn't people stop it from happening?"
And no one will be left to explain that we didn't stop it because WE BEGGED FOR IT.
We laugh at the Romans for putting lead in their plumbing. I wonder what interesting things our descendants will laugh at us for, things that seemed totally harmless to us?
Corporations.
Yep. They're an environmental factor, too.
Oh man I can't wait for d..DYStopia?
Aw, man, I read that wrong.
First thing I thought when I saw the OP (not read it, mind you. Though I have since)
(http://i.imgur.com/80uSa.jpg) (http://imgur.com/80uSa)
No. We are marching towards a Utopia. You just haven't realised it yet.
Well, I guess I take more of a biocentric view of this. Humankind, I think it is safe to say, has an expiration date, regardless of what societies do or don't do.
I also think, as with any kind of species, scarcity of resources, and competition for those scarce resources, is going to cause all kinds of bad news. I mean, that is really what is at the heart of all this, whether we want to call it a dystopia, or just part of the human condition.
Now, I don't say this to suggest or promote a general acceptance of the state of humankind societies.
Indeed, we should continuously be looking to improve situations, to improve the lot of life for more of human kind. But to take the 1,000,000 ft view, it is pretty much impossible to ever guarantee comfortable lives for all. Not when there are 7 or 8 Billion of us running around this rock. I say this not to suggest picking and choosing who to help or who not to help. Not at all. I say this for perspective and to not miss targets while shooting for the moon.
I personally think labeling it as a "dystopia", might miss the point. It's a continuing evolution of the competition for resources. And as always, those with the might, as we all well understand, win the spoils.
There are many opportunities to effect change, but it is small "c" change. Big C, Change, massive global change, I think, is just not possible. Not without a strong, unified, AND MASSIVE, network of change agents.
I think the challenge lies in the fact that the rationing and control of resources has become globalized, but the efforts to ensure more equitable access and distribution have not gone global. It is pocket resistance against a monster that spans continents. The playing field, obviously, is very lopsided.
So what can we do?
I guess, where possible, plug into whatever global efforts for change may exist, however scarce they may be. Simultaneously, continuing to focus on our own communities. Look for opportunities for positive change within the framework that we have. Going to your local school board meeting to holler at school board members who are suggesting poor kids don't need free lunches. It doesn't stop the march to the "dystopia", it doesn't defeat The Machine, but it might put a few more soldiers on the field fighting for our side. (Not to mention the obvious benefit of having more kids who are well fed and able to focus on their education.)
This requires sustained effort, an unwavering commitment. This requires creativity. And it definitely requires patience. Work the margins. Locally it can seem hopeless, but there is always the hope of cumulative impact.
But we get nowhere staring into the charred black voids.
Quote from: Insanity on April 26, 2012, 07:41:39 AM
No. We are marching towards a Utopia. You just haven't realised it yet.
This.
Or actually, if I'm being 100% honest, we're probably not moving in any one direction. I mean, war and corrupt politics have always been a thing. But we are very slowly fading out old prejudices and establishing a new civil rights.
On the other hand, I can't look out into the world without going "Jesus FUCK we are all going to die."
Probably for every horrible step backwards we take, there is a similar step forward. Although, in the long, long, long run we're all going to be screwed without question. Like RWHN pointed out, humankind has an expiration date.
Or I'm just an asshole.
Quote from: Insanity on April 26, 2012, 07:41:39 AM
No. We are marching towards a Utopia. You just haven't realised it yet.
How many millions will have to die to make this utopia work out?
But they don't count, right? Eggs/omelets/etc.
Quote from: Insanity on April 26, 2012, 07:41:39 AM
No. We are marching towards a Utopia. You just haven't realised it yet.
"Utopia," only in the sense that there won't be any people around to fuck things up and be horrible to each other. Because there won't be any people.
Quote from: Insanity on April 26, 2012, 07:41:39 AM
No. We are marching towards a Utopia. You just haven't realised it yet.
I'll buy that....if we're talking about the literal translation of Utopia.
Quote from: Cain on April 26, 2012, 02:42:42 PM
Quote from: Insanity on April 26, 2012, 07:41:39 AM
No. We are marching towards a Utopia. You just haven't realised it yet.
I'll buy that....if we're talking about the literal translation of Utopia.
I'll agree there. :lol:
Quote from: Cain on April 26, 2012, 02:42:42 PM
Quote from: Insanity on April 26, 2012, 07:41:39 AM
No. We are marching towards a Utopia. You just haven't realised it yet.
I'll buy that....if we're talking about the literal translation of Utopia.
True enough.
Pol Pot was a Utopian.
I was thinking more Thomas More.
Quote from: Cainad on April 26, 2012, 02:38:58 PM
Quote from: Insanity on April 26, 2012, 07:41:39 AM
No. We are marching towards a Utopia. You just haven't realised it yet.
"Utopia," only in the sense that there won't be any people around to fuck things up and be horrible to each other. Because there won't be any people.
I meant "Utopia" in the sense that a utopia or dystopia is merely a label we assign the world based on our set of beliefs (every utopia is someone's dystopia and vice versa). But I like your explanation better.
Quote from: Nigel on April 26, 2012, 03:14:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 26, 2012, 02:42:42 PM
Quote from: Insanity on April 26, 2012, 07:41:39 AM
No. We are marching towards a Utopia. You just haven't realised it yet.
I'll buy that....if we're talking about the literal translation of Utopia.
True enough.
Pol Pot was a Utopian.
:horrormirth:
Quote from: Oysters Rockefeller on April 26, 2012, 08:03:00 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 26, 2012, 03:14:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 26, 2012, 02:42:42 PM
Quote from: Insanity on April 26, 2012, 07:41:39 AM
No. We are marching towards a Utopia. You just haven't realised it yet.
I'll buy that....if we're talking about the literal translation of Utopia.
True enough.
Pol Pot was a Utopian.
:horrormirth:
All Utopias are built on a foundation of skulls.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 26, 2012, 08:04:03 PM
Quote from: Oysters Rockefeller on April 26, 2012, 08:03:00 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 26, 2012, 03:14:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 26, 2012, 02:42:42 PM
Quote from: Insanity on April 26, 2012, 07:41:39 AM
No. We are marching towards a Utopia. You just haven't realised it yet.
I'll buy that....if we're talking about the literal translation of Utopia.
True enough.
Pol Pot was a Utopian.
:horrormirth:
All Utopias are built on a foundation of skulls.
Well, that just seems like it wouldn't be up to code.
Really though, it had never occurred to me until this thread that most dictatorships have been the result of utopian ideals. Very interesting.
Quote from: Oysters Rockefeller on April 26, 2012, 08:08:40 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 26, 2012, 08:04:03 PM
Quote from: Oysters Rockefeller on April 26, 2012, 08:03:00 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 26, 2012, 03:14:46 PM
Quote from: Cain on April 26, 2012, 02:42:42 PM
Quote from: Insanity on April 26, 2012, 07:41:39 AM
No. We are marching towards a Utopia. You just haven't realised it yet.
I'll buy that....if we're talking about the literal translation of Utopia.
True enough.
Pol Pot was a Utopian.
:horrormirth:
All Utopias are built on a foundation of skulls.
Well, that just seems like it wouldn't be up to code.
Really though, it had never occurred to me until this thread that most dictatorships have been the result of utopian ideals. Very interesting.
Yeah, and everything would have been PERFECT without those DISSENTING TROUBLEMAKERS that didn't see the GENIUS of the vision!
So we had to march them out in a field and machine gun them. For the benefit of the Good Citizens.
For our own protection, aye?
I thought Bush/Cheney and co were Utopians. Somehow, the Middle east was going to magically transfer to Westminster style democracy and Massachusets Town Hall meetings if only our well-meaning countries got together and bombed the fuckery out of Iraq and the Afghans. Flowers would be thrown at the feet of soldiers. Oh, and as an aside, Halliburton would make shit-loads of $$$ re-building this Utopia.
Why didn't those stupid mid-Easterners get this?
Quote from: Deepthroat Chopra on April 27, 2012, 01:45:43 AM
I thought Bush/Cheney and co were Utopians. Somehow, the Middle east was going to magically transfer to Westminster style democracy and Massachusets Town Hall meetings if only our well-meaning countries got together and bombed the fuckery out of Iraq and the Afghans. Flowers would be thrown at the feet of soldiers. Oh, and as an aside, Halliburton would make shit-loads of $$$ re-building this Utopia.
Why didn't those stupid mid-Easterners get this?
Because all Muslims are EEEEVVVILLLL :evilmad: :evilmad: :evilmad: :evilmad: :evilmad:
Quote from: Deepthroat Chopra on April 27, 2012, 01:45:43 AM
I thought Bush/Cheney and co were Utopians. Somehow, the Middle east was going to magically transfer to Westminster style democracy and Massachusets Town Hall meetings if only our well-meaning countries got together and bombed the fuckery out of Iraq and the Afghans. Flowers would be thrown at the feet of soldiers. Oh, and as an aside, Halliburton would make shit-loads of $$$ re-building this Utopia.
Why didn't those stupid mid-Easterners get this?
They didn't kill enough of the troublemakers.
Quote from: Mistre on April 27, 2012, 01:34:05 AM
For our own protection, aye?
No, for the protection of the Good People.
You and I are dead fucking meat. :lulz:
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 27, 2012, 04:05:54 AM
Quote from: Deepthroat Chopra on April 27, 2012, 01:45:43 AM
I thought Bush/Cheney and co were Utopians. Somehow, the Middle east was going to magically transfer to Westminster style democracy and Massachusets Town Hall meetings if only our well-meaning countries got together and bombed the fuckery out of Iraq and the Afghans. Flowers would be thrown at the feet of soldiers. Oh, and as an aside, Halliburton would make shit-loads of $$$ re-building this Utopia.
Why didn't those stupid mid-Easterners get this?
They didn't kill enough of the troublemakers.
Then, Hitler. He envisioned a Utopia. Just so happened to get there, one side of my ancestry needed to be completely wiped from Europe. And maybe the Irish side as well, as well as the Jews, Romany, disabled....
But then, WOO! What a party they would have thrown.
I have important, secret news for you. Lean close and I'll whisper it in your ear. Ready, baby?
EVERYONE IS A UTOPIAN!!!!!
It's true. Ask anyone and they'll tell you their vision of perfect perfected perfectioness. And you know what else? We're all full of shit.
SHIT! WALLOW IN IT! IT'S LIKE JELL-O, EVERYONE HAS ROOM FOR MOAR.
I gave Utopianism up for lent. And ate fish instead. I've kept the habit up after Easter. Thanks for the secret though. Love hearing other people's secrets.
Quote from: navkat on April 27, 2012, 05:33:03 AM
I have important, secret news for you. Lean close and I'll whisper it in your ear. Ready, baby?
EVERYONE IS A UTOPIAN!!!!!
It's true. Ask anyone and they'll tell you their vision of perfect perfected perfectioness. And you know what else? We're all full of shit.
SHIT! WALLOW IN IT! IT'S LIKE JELL-O, EVERYONE HAS ROOM FOR MOAR.
I must be broken.
Maybe the real harm in the whole utopian ideal is that is involves a perfect vision that needs to be IMPOSED on other people.
Quote from: Placid Dingo on April 27, 2012, 05:47:10 AM
Maybe the real harm in the whole utopian ideal is that is involves a perfect vision that needs to be IMPOSED on other people.
Or maybe the real harm in the whole utopian ideal is that it presumes the perfection can be objectified.
Quote from: Insanity on April 27, 2012, 06:04:23 AM
Quote from: Placid Dingo on April 27, 2012, 05:47:10 AM
Maybe the real harm in the whole utopian ideal is that is involves a perfect vision that needs to be IMPOSED on other people.
Or maybe the real harm in the whole utopian ideal is that it presumes the perfection can be objectified.
The real harm in utopianism is that it presumes perfection is possible. Actually the real harm is that people subscribe to that delusion.
A concept I've loved toying with is past Utopia's, otherwise known as a "Golden Age" of some sort to someone.
An example is the conservatives (here at least) fixation with the 1950's. Apparently, there were no drug problems, crime, or dark people then. Well, there were the indigenous dark folk, but they solved that problem with a series of Mission's just far enough into the desert so that they didn't have to look at them. We've had politicians even defend that particular decaed as a perfect time. Womens were still in the house all the time, you didn't have to put any effort into coffee making. None of that Sushi crap around. Meat and three veg. Oh, and priests weren't being harangued by all that paedophilia accusations.
Of course, as you know, there's the dark side to all of those things. Sure, hardly anyone divorced. But why is that seen as a good thing? Do you really want to be in a time when Men weren't at all accountable for violence, financial abuse and just being plain bores?
Bugger the 50's. Gimme today. It's not perfect, but I can eat Vietnamese food as much as I want.
Quote from: Deepthroat Chopra on April 27, 2012, 06:26:37 AM
A concept I've loved toying with is past Utopia's, otherwise known as a "Golden Age" of some sort to someone.
An example is the conservatives (here at least) fixation with the 1950's. Apparently, there were no drug problems, crime, or dark people then. Well, there were the indigenous dark folk, but they solved that problem with a series of Mission's just far enough into the desert so that they didn't have to look at them. We've had politicians even defend that particular decaed as a perfect time. Womens were still in the house all the time, you didn't have to put any effort into coffee making. None of that Sushi crap around. Meat and three veg. Oh, and priests weren't being harangued by all that paedophilia accusations.
Of course, as you know, there's the dark side to all of those things. Sure, hardly anyone divorced. But why is that seen as a good thing? Do you really want to be in a time when Men weren't at all accountable for violence, financial abuse and just being plain bores?
Bugger the 50's. Gimme today. It's not perfect, but I can eat Vietnamese food as much as I want.
This. So much this.
Quote from: Nigel on April 27, 2012, 06:29:24 AM
Quote from: Deepthroat Chopra on April 27, 2012, 06:26:37 AM
A concept I've loved toying with is past Utopia's, otherwise known as a "Golden Age" of some sort to someone.
An example is the conservatives (here at least) fixation with the 1950's. Apparently, there were no drug problems, crime, or dark people then. Well, there were the indigenous dark folk, but they solved that problem with a series of Mission's just far enough into the desert so that they didn't have to look at them. We've had politicians even defend that particular decaed as a perfect time. Womens were still in the house all the time, you didn't have to put any effort into coffee making. None of that Sushi crap around. Meat and three veg. Oh, and priests weren't being harangued by all that paedophilia accusations.
Of course, as you know, there's the dark side to all of those things. Sure, hardly anyone divorced. But why is that seen as a good thing? Do you really want to be in a time when Men weren't at all accountable for violence, financial abuse and just being plain bores?
Bugger the 50's. Gimme today. It's not perfect, but I can eat Vietnamese food as much as I want.
This. So much this.
Not only that, but that mindset is a very conservative way of thinking regardless of political inclination. Everyone has their golden era.
Well you know what? Your golden era sucked for some reason.
Let's take the 50s, since it was brought up. There's this false sense of domestic tranquility even though there is clear gender inequality. Dad was always fucked up on Scotch because he had a hard day at the office. So he'd come home and smack around mom and ignore the kids because he had a hard day at the office and they had to suck it up because he was the breadwinner and was only for their good. So mom has to pop valium while feeling trapped and Junior has to be an asshole to his peers. Also, constant threat of nuclear warfare.
Yep. Sounds like an awesome time to live and go back to.
It's like when I was a kid and my chemistry teacher told me flat out that if I lived in the Middle Ages I would have died already.
Yesterday in Sociology we were asked "When was the Golden Age of the American family?"
I (semi-jokingly) answered "The pre-Columbian era", but after thinking about it my serious answer would have to be now. Because this is the first time in American history when fathers don't essentially own their wives and children, when girls who get pregnant outside of marriage aren't sent away in shame or forced into servitude, when widows don't have to indenture their kids, when children don't have to start work at age 12, when people are (almost) free to marry whom they want regardless of race or sex, when children are very likely to survive to adulthood without crippling disease, when life expectancies are so long that kids can reasonably expect to grow up with grandparents or even great-grandparents, and when there is a support network... however flawed... that helps single parents to raise their kids without resorting to slavery or prostitution.
An era that actually accepts and supports all kinds of family instead of glorifying one and punishing the others seems like a "golden age" for family, if you ask me.
Quote from: The Twiddlerat0r on April 27, 2012, 06:39:02 AM
It's like when I was a kid and my chemistry teacher told me flat out that if I lived in the Middle Ages I would have died already.
I'd be dead three times now without modern medicine. It's a sobering thing to keep in mind.
Of course, life span expectations were different in that era. It seems like such a short amount of time to us today, and an existence that was undoubtedly fraught with tribulation and struggles. But within the paradigm of that particular time, it likely would not have felt any more egregious than our life spans today feel to us.
I would expect many people made the most of the time that they had and did what they could within that time to make their world and community stronger.
Quote from: Reverend What's-His-Name? on April 27, 2012, 04:00:59 PM
Of course, life span expectations were different in that era. It seems like such a short amount of time to us today, and an existence that was undoubtedly fraught with tribulation and struggles. But within the paradigm of that particular time, it likely would not have felt any more egregious than our life spans today feel to us.
I would expect many people made the most of the time that they had and did what they could within that time to make their world and community stronger.
18, 20, and 23 are not ages that have ever been considered "a full life," regardless of the time period. Even when there's a very low life expectancy, it's not because people were dropping off at 35 or 40, it's just averaging out the infant mortality, maternal childbirth deaths, and early childhood illnesses. People were living into their seventies and eighties even in the worst of times, just fewer of them made it that far.
Quote from: Nigel on April 27, 2012, 03:32:35 PM
Yesterday in Sociology we were asked "When was the Golden Age of the American family?"
I would say between 1976 and 2000.
Relatively speaking. And mostly toward the earlier end of that range.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on April 27, 2012, 04:20:58 PM
Quote from: Nigel on April 27, 2012, 03:32:35 PM
Yesterday in Sociology we were asked "When was the Golden Age of the American family?"
I would say between 1976 and 2000. Relatively speaking. And mostly toward the earlier end of that range.
Why's that?
Wages were still rising in real terms in the earlier part of that period.
Also, after Watergate and Ford, there was a kickback against instrusive government which involved, among other things, investigations into the CIA and the election of several firebrands determined to bring more accountability and transparency to government.
It wasn't ideal, but there seemed to be progress happening, as opposed to "progress being co-opted by elite economic elements to continue gorging themselves on public money and strengthen the National Security State", which is pretty much 2008 summed up.
The wages I get, but how does the Watergate blowback have anything to do with families?
It meant the culture of government was less dismissive and more interested in listening to voters, which led to policies which were more in tune with what voters wanted. Rollback of lawlessness at the highest levels of government had knock-on effects at state and local levels.
Families do get destroyed by rampaging cops who think they've been given a licence to kill. Or a "no-knock warrant" and accusations of drug use, at the very least. It took Reagan style moralizing and paranoia to kick the drug war into overdrive.
Quote from: Cain on April 27, 2012, 05:27:52 PM
Wages were still rising in real terms in the earlier part of that period.
Also, after Watergate and Ford, there was a kickback against instrusive government which involved, among other things, investigations into the CIA and the election of several firebrands determined to bring more accountability and transparency to government.
It wasn't ideal, but there seemed to be progress happening, as opposed to "progress being co-opted by elite economic elements to continue gorging themselves on public money and strengthen the National Security State", which is pretty much 2008 summed up.
Cain said it way better than I could have.