I believe in America.
A lot of people who are currently being labeled nasty, unpatriotic things love America, too. We sit up at night and talk about it. It tries our faith and wears us down, but this is Who We Are and damned if the shrieking apes are going to take that away from us. They don't own this place. They don't own the land, don't own the history, don't own the hopes and dreams and promise of a nation or a continent.
I believe that this is a Special Place. I believe that this is the place (in some ways, the only possible place) where mankind comes together after millennia apart to learn from each other and to find out what the future will hold. I believe in the Clovis people, in the Aztecs and the Mayans and the Olmecs, the Inuit and the Navajo and the Abanaqi and all the rest. I believe in the ruins of Pumapunku and ancient Roman boats and Templar Knights and South Pacific Islanders and wandering Hebrews and Welsh explorers and Vikings. I believe in them all, not because the dirty brown people needed white saviors, and not because the noble savages must be magically better than us nasty invaders. I believe in them because this is a place that draws us in. Because this is Holy Land. Because when you have grown as much as you can in the place where you were born, you must explore, and nowhere else in the world is so separated from every other land, so likely to catch up explorers looking for the edges of the earth, and so kind to those who survive the trip.
The Americas are a land of exiles and adventurers, rebels and malcontents and deviants. We are the second siblings on too-crowded islands, set adrift. We are the refugees of famine and disaster. We are the eldest sons sent out to find their fortune. We are the well-bred daughters of poor families. We are the heretics and criminals, and we are the survivors of genocide. We are forgetful, because we spend so much time looking forward that we fail to remember our past in anything more solid than myth and parable. We are always in motion, accelerating. We are plural - always plural - because we never were one family with one origin. We are the mutts of the world, and we are never, ever satisfied. We sometimes commit ecological suicide.
I believe this is a land of apocalypses. I believe in Easter Island statues and abandoned cities and dust bowls. I believe that the only way to continue existing as the proving ground for new ideas is to periodically wipe away the old and start over. I believe the world is watching, because everyone likes a show, and no one gives a show like the Americas. I believe we are special because we burn brightly and lead the way for the others.
And, in time, their explorers will find this land again.
Except...that's not America. America's a line on a map, and a whole bucket of money. Everything else is just...interior design. Flags and national anthems and "national characteristics", as if the nation-state has a monpoly on the vast expression of human nature. America is the TM. Just like everywhere else.
The United States of America is and has always been a cesspool of exploitation and despair.
The United States of America is a country, America (or, to be more accurate "the Americas") is a continent.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on May 22, 2012, 03:38:04 PM
The Americas are a land of exiles and adventurers, rebels and malcontents and deviants.
Well, nooooo...We WERE that, until sometime around the middle of the last century. Now we're fat Romans, hiding behind our walls and pretending the world isn't there. Or, if it must be there, then it is there to serve us.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on May 22, 2012, 11:00:42 PM
The United States of America is a country, America (or, to be more accurate "the Americas") is a continent.
Balls. Those other countries should think up their own name, instead of ripping us off.
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on May 22, 2012, 10:07:29 PM
The United States of America is and has always been a cesspool of exploitation and despair.
Yeah, but so are all the others. Except Belgium, and they're just showing off.
Also, how COULD you have America with no ™? That's fucking treason at LEAST.
"Welcome to the United Snakes, land of the thief, home of the slave.
The grand imperial guard, where the dollar is sacred and power is god."
—Brother Ali, Uncle Sam Goddamn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO18F4aKGzQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=27s)
America is a Trojan Chocolate Easter Bunny.
A tasty perversion of Jesus,
Utterly hollow,
And when you figure this out,
It's too late.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 22, 2012, 11:11:04 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on May 22, 2012, 03:38:04 PM
The Americas are a land of exiles and adventurers, rebels and malcontents and deviants.
Well, nooooo...We WERE that, until sometime around the middle of the last century. Now we're fat Romans, hiding behind our walls and pretending the world isn't there. Or, if it must be there, then it is there to serve us.
That's why this is a piece about belief. I know damn well that the reality of the situation is pretty fucking bleak and full of the
TM crap, but the reason it's worth staying around and not giving in to the douchebuckets who've co-opted America is that I do still have this faith in the place, and I do still believe that somewhere under the layers of cheeto dust the people still have the faintest glimmer of who they were.
And if they don't, I believe this place will get rid of them and replace them with new uppity bastards. It's happened before.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 23, 2012, 03:23:11 AM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on May 22, 2012, 10:07:29 PM
The United States of America is and has always been a cesspool of exploitation and despair.
Yeah, but so are all the others. Except Belgium, and they're just showing off.
I think Belgium was made to go sit in a quiet corner and think about what it had done re: the Congo Free State. Strictly speaking not Belgium's fault, of course, but Leopold II was their king.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on May 23, 2012, 12:33:54 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on May 22, 2012, 11:11:04 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on May 22, 2012, 03:38:04 PM
The Americas are a land of exiles and adventurers, rebels and malcontents and deviants.
Well, nooooo...We WERE that, until sometime around the middle of the last century. Now we're fat Romans, hiding behind our walls and pretending the world isn't there. Or, if it must be there, then it is there to serve us.
That's why this is a piece about belief. I know damn well that the reality of the situation is pretty fucking bleak and full of the TM crap, but the reason it's worth staying around and not giving in to the douchebuckets who've co-opted America is that I do still have this faith in the place, and I do still believe that somewhere under the layers of cheeto dust the people still have the faintest glimmer of who they were.
And if they don't, I believe this place will get rid of them and replace them with new uppity bastards. It's happened before.
I know what you're getting at, but America's just a place. Some good stuff happened, some bad stuff happened, some stuff happened. Just like every other place. Some may have a longer history than others but there are things to be proud of, things to be ashamed of, things to learn from and things that just happened everywhere. Where I happened to be born was just a matter of circumstance. I can look back at the past actions of people and have an opinion on it, but I just can't get all "Woo America!" because it's just a hunk of land, where I happened to be born, where stuff happens, for better or worse.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on May 22, 2012, 11:00:42 PM
The United States of America is a country, America (or, to be more accurate "the Americas") is a continent.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on May 22, 2012, 03:38:04 PM
The Americas are a land of exiles and adventurers, rebels and malcontents and deviants. We are the second siblings on too-crowded islands, set adrift. We are the refugees of famine and disaster. We are the eldest sons sent out to find their fortune. We are the well-bred daughters of poor families. We are the heretics and criminals, and we are the survivors of genocide. We are forgetful, because we spend so much time looking forward that we fail to remember our past in anything more solid than myth and parable. We are always in motion, accelerating. We are plural - always plural - because we never were one family with one origin. We are the mutts of the world, and we are never, ever satisfied. We sometimes commit ecological suicide.
This doesn't really seem to describe the two continents (which can't really be described as "a land"). It seems to describe a country founded by fairly recent arrivals. Which is it? How does that paragraph tie in with your mention of the natives? Are you saying that there's some kind of kinship?
Quite frankly, I don't like this piece at all. But perhaps I'm just not seeing what you're going for.
What I got out of it was there's something in America worth salvaging. I agree completely. The rats will feast like kings when The Time™ comes.
More seriously, I do not want to have faith in anything let alone this safe haven for assholes. If we contain those who have survived genocide, they only have a place to survive in such lavish BECAUSE of massive, successful genocide.
"second siblings set adrift" and "survivors of genocide" is specifically referring to the first inhabitants of the Americas. Everyone who has ever lived here came from somewhere else, and genetic research on surviving native american groups makes a strong case for their ancestors coming from at least different regions in Asia and the South Pacific, if not more continents. Over and over again, the Americas have been discovered, and great civilizations have been built, and crumble, and new ones are built on the ruins. I think there is a kind of kinship between all the different groups that have experienced the act of discovering this place, whether they did it in longboats or rafts or a steamship.
I dunno, it doesn't seem like this worked really well. Oh well.
HEY, ALL YOU GUYS ON THE PINE RIDGE RESERVATION! YEAH, YOU GUYS! DID YOU KNOW WE'RE, LIKE, TOTALLY KINDRED SPIRITS?
Quote from: Echo Chamber Music on May 23, 2012, 05:00:34 PM
HEY, ALL YOU GUYS ON THE PINE RIDGE RESERVATION! YEAH, YOU GUYS! DID YOU KNOW WE'RE, LIKE, TOTALLY KINDRED SPIRITS?
Yeah, that's what I was afraid of.
An exceptional American is not proof of American Exceptionalism.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on May 23, 2012, 05:04:39 PM
An exceptional American is not proof of American Exceptionalism.
Thank you
Frankly, I'm surprised I was able to get that in ahead of you.
It's hot here, I'm having trouble thinking. Suffocatingly hot, since this building is designed to retain as much heat as possible.
I need a fan, brb.
2.4.6.8 Who do we appreciate ... Cain!
:banana:
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on May 23, 2012, 05:01:15 PM
Quote from: Echo Chamber Music on May 23, 2012, 05:00:34 PM
HEY, ALL YOU GUYS ON THE PINE RIDGE RESERVATION! YEAH, YOU GUYS! DID YOU KNOW WE'RE, LIKE, TOTALLY KINDRED SPIRITS?
Yeah, that's what I was afraid of.
Thing is, America is just another "ism", a set of incorrect assumptions and mistaken beliefs. Asking people to take the myth seriously is like asking people to believe in the tooth fairy.
I dunno. I see stuff that i like in this post. Mainly what i got out of it was that its the people who want to shake things up that are patriotic not the people who want to maintain the status quo or even regress. I didnt really see this as a form of american exceptionalism so much as a "hey guys we can do better." i may be looking at it from a weird angle though?
Patriotism is bullshit. And Amercan Exceptionalism, as a form of patriotism, is more bullshit than most. Congratulations, you won the "arbitrary lines on a map drawn by powerbrokers" lottery. Only not really, because your country is basically mired in dicks and there are no shortage of random map areas that enjoy better standards of living and aren't full of mouthbreathing dickweeds. And if that isn't bad enough, you go to other places and export your mouthbreathing dickweedness until they're just as ruined as the rest of the empire. And then you won't even do the proper thing and fuck off and turn us loose so we can suckle up to the much more generous and less "strings attached" chinese teat like all the banana republics that didn't interest you 100 years ago get to do.
Seriously, the whole concept of AMERICA can go fuck itself. It barely deserved its first day in the sun and it clearly hasn't done anything to earn a resurgence.
Quote from: Echo Chamber Music on May 23, 2012, 05:00:34 PM
HEY, ALL YOU GUYS ON THE PINE RIDGE RESERVATION! YEAH, YOU GUYS! DID YOU KNOW WE'RE, LIKE, TOTALLY KINDRED SPIRITS?
Quote from: Echo Chamber Music on May 23, 2012, 08:58:23 PM
Patriotism is bullshit. And Amercan Exceptionalism, as a form of patriotism, is more bullshit than most. Congratulations, you won the "arbitrary lines on a map drawn by powerbrokers" lottery. Only not really, because your country is basically mired in dicks and there are no shortage of random map areas that enjoy better standards of living and aren't full of mouthbreathing dickweeds. And if that isn't bad enough, you go to other places and export your mouthbreathing dickweedness until they're just as ruined as the rest of the empire. And then you won't even do the proper thing and fuck off and turn us loose so we can suckle up to the much more generous and less "strings attached" chinese teat like all the banana republics that didn't interest you 100 years ago get to do.
Seriously, the whole concept of AMERICA can go fuck itself. It barely deserved its first day in the sun and it clearly hasn't done anything to earn a resurgence.
THIS. All of it.
While i agree that nationality is just accident of birth most people do have the opportunity to not live within that nation state and also have the option to change their nationality. Means to do so is a different thing of course.
I mean i could always move somewhere else. I just happen to like living in boston. I like a lot of other places ive been too but not enough to want to leave eastern massachusetts on a largely permanent basis.
I could leave Tucson anytime I want. It just so happens that I'm destitute and anchored here by a child.
Well like i said means is different. Another obstacle for me leaving boston i s that boston doesnt let you save much money.
Quote from: Twiddler Durden on May 24, 2012, 12:40:19 AM
Well like i said means is different. Another obstacle for me leaving boston i s that boston doesnt let you save much money.
WE'VE GOT TO GET OUT OF ZIS TRRRAP!
Quote from: Echo Chamber Music on May 23, 2012, 08:58:23 PM
Patriotism is bullshit. And Amercan Exceptionalism, as a form of patriotism, is more bullshit than most. Congratulations, you won the "arbitrary lines on a map drawn by powerbrokers" lottery. Only not really, because your country is basically mired in dicks and there are no shortage of random map areas that enjoy better standards of living and aren't full of mouthbreathing dickweeds. And if that isn't bad enough, you go to other places and export your mouthbreathing dickweedness until they're just as ruined as the rest of the empire. And then you won't even do the proper thing and fuck off and turn us loose so we can suckle up to the much more generous and less "strings attached" chinese teat like all the banana republics that didn't interest you 100 years ago get to do.
Seriously, the whole concept of AMERICA can go fuck itself. It barely deserved its first day in the sun and it clearly hasn't done anything to earn a resurgence.
A FUCKING MEN!
Quote from: Twiddler Durden on May 24, 2012, 12:23:17 AM
While i agree that nationality is just accident of birth most people do have the opportunity to not live within that nation state and also have the option to change their nationality. Means to do so is a different thing of course.
How is "opportunity" different from "means" in this context?
If most people do not have the means, do they really have the opportunity?
Most people on this planet do not have the means, and therefore do not have the opportunity to emigrate to another nation-state, even if their nation-state has laws which permit emigration, and there is another country which is willing to accept them.
And most countries do not willingly accept immigrants with no money and minimal education, so that rules out "most".
Bad use of terms i admit. What i mean is legal ability. For example for me to acquire the means to leave boston i would have to get a second and possibly weekend job until i was ready for the move. Which might be necessary to remove my attachment to begin with.
Quote from: Twiddler Durden on May 24, 2012, 02:21:04 AM
Bad use of terms i admit. What i mean is legal ability. For example for me to acquire the means to leave boston i would have to get a second and possibly weekend job until i was ready for the move. Which might be necessary to remove my attachment to begin with.
OK, but I think you may be projecting a type of "opportunity" onto everyone that does not actually exist for most of the world's population. It may be "legal" for me to buy a ten million dollar house, but that does not actually mean that I have the opportunity.
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on May 25, 2012, 07:25:31 AM
Quote from: Twiddler Durden on May 24, 2012, 02:21:04 AM
Bad use of terms i admit. What i mean is legal ability. For example for me to acquire the means to leave boston i would have to get a second and possibly weekend job until i was ready for the move. Which might be necessary to remove my attachment to begin with.
OK, but I think you may be projecting a type of "opportunity" onto everyone that does not actually exist for most of the world's population.
Fair enough. Anyway, within the post of this context, I meant more that since you can technically choose your country, you can choose to be patriotic about a country that you otherwise have nothing to do with. I dunno, I'm my brain's fried. I wanted to go to be 4 hours ago.
Quote from: Twiddler Durden on May 25, 2012, 07:28:08 AM
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on May 25, 2012, 07:25:31 AM
Quote from: Twiddler Durden on May 24, 2012, 02:21:04 AM
Bad use of terms i admit. What i mean is legal ability. For example for me to acquire the means to leave boston i would have to get a second and possibly weekend job until i was ready for the move. Which might be necessary to remove my attachment to begin with.
OK, but I think you may be projecting a type of "opportunity" onto everyone that does not actually exist for most of the world's population.
Fair enough. Anyway, within the post of this context, I meant more that since you can technically choose your country, you can choose to be patriotic about a country that you otherwise have nothing to do with. I dunno, I'm my brain's fried. I wanted to go to be 4 hours ago.
GO TO BE!
Quote from: Echo Chamber Music on May 23, 2012, 08:58:23 PM
Patriotism is bullshit. And Amercan Exceptionalism, as a form of patriotism, is more bullshit than most. Congratulations, you won the "arbitrary lines on a map drawn by powerbrokers" lottery. Only not really, because your country is basically mired in dicks and there are no shortage of random map areas that enjoy better standards of living and aren't full of mouthbreathing dickweeds. And if that isn't bad enough, you go to other places and export your mouthbreathing dickweedness until they're just as ruined as the rest of the empire. And then you won't even do the proper thing and fuck off and turn us loose so we can suckle up to the much more generous and less "strings attached" chinese teat like all the banana republics that didn't interest you 100 years ago get to do.
Seriously, the whole concept of AMERICA can go fuck itself. It barely deserved its first day in the sun and it clearly hasn't done anything to earn a resurgence.
This post... it makes me want to build a shrine to ECH in my closet upon which I may charge my sigils. :fap:
Quote from: PROFOUNDLY RETARDED CHARLIE MANSON on May 24, 2012, 02:05:56 AM
Quote from: Twiddler Durden on May 24, 2012, 12:23:17 AM
While i agree that nationality is just accident of birth most people do have the opportunity to not live within that nation state and also have the option to change their nationality. Means to do so is a different thing of course.
How is "opportunity" different from "means" in this context?
If most people do not have the means, do they really have the opportunity?
Most people on this planet do not have the means, and therefore do not have the opportunity to emigrate to another nation-state, even if their nation-state has laws which permit emigration, and there is another country which is willing to accept them.
And most countries do not willingly accept immigrants with no money and minimal education, so that rules out "most".
Quite right, Nigel. For some reason, I am thinking of Germany's issues with Turkish immigration in the past, which even when Turkish immigrants were legally allowed in, there was still plenty of issues with social and economic limitations, but I don't really know a whole lot more than that. I'm sure Cain probably does and Trip might, though.
I went to be so i couldnt sleep within the post of the context. Reattempting after some water and a toothbrushing.
Basically, nationalism is silly, whether it's of the "rah rah, long live the Empire" kind, or the "my country can do better" kind.
In fact, I would, in my typically contrarian manner, posit the latter is in fact more insidious and therefore the greater evil. The latter reinforces attachment, on an emotional level, a desire to "reform" and "improve" and "humanize" a system which, as ECH so eloquently pointed out, acts with the enlightened self-interest of a meth addict during the terminal stage, trying to score yet another hit and relive the good times, baby.
America has been known to import Liberian refugees.