One of the phrases that sure to inspire terror and dread in a soldier is "hold until relieved". Anyone who's been around the block knows what that really means; "no relief force is coming", or in infantry jargon/gallows humor, "DIP" (die in place). It is an order given to buy time to cover a retreat, or allow other forces to reorganize. If it meant anything else, more complicated orders would have been issued.
At that point, it's a pretty sure bet that the term "fighting position" (once known as "fox holes") is now, or very shortly, interpreted as "unmarked grave". Given the sheer number of wars in the world's history, there are many such graves all over the world.
But now we are told by our Captains of Industry, our bankers, our pundits, and our government to hold until relieved, that a relief force will be along shortly. But grunts know. Grunts are used to the shitty end of the stick, and are not fooled by such empty promises...And when I say "grunt", I do not only mean infantrymen. Civil rights leaders in the 60s were told to wait...To be patient, that things would change if only people like Martin Luther King and Medgar Evers would hold until relieved.
Fortunately, the civil rights leaders were not so foolish as to believe any of that rot, and went and fixed things themselves, forcing the government and the rest of the establishment to join the parade. Luckily for them, they had good leadership.
Now, groups like Occupy and the Tea Party are told to hold until relieved. The Tea Party believes, and they expect that everything in their life will change if the GOP regains the executive branch. It will change, of course, but not in the way they are thinking. Occupy, on the other hand, knows the promise of relief to be bullshit, but lacks the leadership necessary to effect any sort of actual change.
The only difference is, Occupy knows there is no relief column coming, while the Tea Party is certain that one will be here in November. Their fates, of course, are the same, but the Occupy people at least have the grim satisfaction of knowing that they know the truth. It's cold comfort, but it's better than nothing.
The critical flaw in the analogy is that a soldier is normally – thought not always - told to hold until relieved to accomplish some purpose. Today, we are told to hold until relieved so that the people issuing the orders may finish robbing us. This leaves us with two choices...A) bravely man our positions, or B) do the "bug out boogie" (ie, fuck the officers, get the hell out).
In terms of the current conflict (the rather one-sided class warfare being waged on the public), "bugging out" can mean many things. It can mean organized boycotts of loans, or of businesses, etc. It can mean far grimmer things, of course, but that is a battle lost before it even begins...While stringing up a banker or two may sound like a satisfying pastime, it causes no end of paperwork, not to mention giving the oligarchs the excuse they need to crack down hard, as well as rallying the dumbfucks to their side. No, better to hit them in a way they to which they cannot really respond. As ECH said, "if you owe the bank $10K, that's your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that's their problem.
That's a mighty big stick, and there's more than one way to swing it. The ways I've mentioned are fairly predictable, and are probably planned for...But there must be some way to exploit that gigantic flaw in the system.
We just have to figure out how.
Or Kill Me.
If they ask for it in triplicate, send it in quintuplet.
:mittens:
mass synchronized bankruptcy?
Quote from: v3x on June 27, 2012, 03:33:05 PM
:mittens:
mass synchronized bankruptcy?
Someone brought that up before.
You wouldn't even need bankruptcy. All it would take would be for a large number of people to miss a single payment
all at once.
:mittens:
Is there a ballpark figure on how many people it would take?
Has anything like this ever been done before that would suggest what the banks' likely response would be?
Quote from: Net on June 27, 2012, 04:55:37 PM
:mittens:
Is there a ballpark figure on how many people it would take?
Has anything like this ever been done before that would suggest what the banks' likely response would be?
If it was done right, their likely response would be to collapse.
Quote from: Net on June 27, 2012, 04:55:37 PM
:mittens:
Is there a ballpark figure on how many people it would take?
Has anything like this ever been done before that would suggest what the banks' likely response would be?
Naw, we'd have to dig for that number.
Again, I'd like to stress that this wasn't my idea. It might have been yours or Nigel's, I can't remember, to be honest.
And what could the bank's response be? Loans are contracts. There are specific penalties for missing a given number of payments. A single month wouldn't be a giant penalty...At least it isn't for me.
Also, missing a payment isn't a criminal act, so I'd gather that there wouldn't be any conspiracy issues.
Quote from: v3x on June 27, 2012, 05:06:07 PM
Quote from: Net on June 27, 2012, 04:55:37 PM
:mittens:
Is there a ballpark figure on how many people it would take?
Has anything like this ever been done before that would suggest what the banks' likely response would be?
If it was done right, their likely response would be to collapse.
You don't want that. The banking system is necessary, it just needs to be brought back to reality.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 27, 2012, 05:06:26 PM
Quote from: Net on June 27, 2012, 04:55:37 PM
:mittens:
Is there a ballpark figure on how many people it would take?
Has anything like this ever been done before that would suggest what the banks' likely response would be?
Naw, we'd have to dig for that number.
Again, I'd like to stress that this wasn't my idea. It might have been yours or Nigel's, I can't remember, to be honest.
And what could the bank's response be? Loans are contracts. There are specific penalties for missing a given number of payments. A single month wouldn't be a giant penalty...At least it isn't for me.
Also, missing a payment isn't a criminal act, so I'd gather that there wouldn't be any conspiracy issues.
It was Nigel's idea, and it is fucking brilliant.
I think the sticking point is getting enough people to actually do it.
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 27, 2012, 05:40:10 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 27, 2012, 05:06:26 PM
Quote from: Net on June 27, 2012, 04:55:37 PM
:mittens:
Is there a ballpark figure on how many people it would take?
Has anything like this ever been done before that would suggest what the banks' likely response would be?
Naw, we'd have to dig for that number.
Again, I'd like to stress that this wasn't my idea. It might have been yours or Nigel's, I can't remember, to be honest.
And what could the bank's response be? Loans are contracts. There are specific penalties for missing a given number of payments. A single month wouldn't be a giant penalty...At least it isn't for me.
Also, missing a payment isn't a criminal act, so I'd gather that there wouldn't be any conspiracy issues.
It was Nigel's idea, and it is fucking brilliant.
I think the sticking point is getting enough people to actually do it.
Even if you could get enough people to do it, how do you coordinate it without going viral and giving the banks plenty of time to prepare?
Quote from: v3x on June 27, 2012, 05:45:24 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on June 27, 2012, 05:40:10 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 27, 2012, 05:06:26 PM
Quote from: Net on June 27, 2012, 04:55:37 PM
:mittens:
Is there a ballpark figure on how many people it would take?
Has anything like this ever been done before that would suggest what the banks' likely response would be?
Naw, we'd have to dig for that number.
Again, I'd like to stress that this wasn't my idea. It might have been yours or Nigel's, I can't remember, to be honest.
And what could the bank's response be? Loans are contracts. There are specific penalties for missing a given number of payments. A single month wouldn't be a giant penalty...At least it isn't for me.
Also, missing a payment isn't a criminal act, so I'd gather that there wouldn't be any conspiracy issues.
It was Nigel's idea, and it is fucking brilliant.
I think the sticking point is getting enough people to actually do it.
Even if you could get enough people to do it, how do you coordinate it without going viral and giving the banks plenty of time to prepare?
Do things "go viral" slowly enough that people can prepare?
I'm sure they've heard this kind of talk before, the problem is that I don't think they have the foggiest idea of how likely that sort of confluence actually is. So, I'd imagine they already have contingency plans and that forcing their hand sooner, while there's still a some heat on them, is better than later, as the US public has the attention span of a gnat.
a "hey guys lets all do this to show those bastards!" campaign wouldn't work. nobody is going to risk their own credit score or whatever just to get back at banks, when the idea seems unlikely to work anyway. so it would need an element of the "book burning party" approach. get people to ACCIDENTALLY fight for the right cause. maybe create a gigantic scare that hackers can get your personal information via bank transfer information and the only way to stay safe is to halt all payments to large companies for 30 days.
Quote from: v3x on June 27, 2012, 06:35:01 PM
a "hey guys lets all do this to show those bastards!" campaign wouldn't work. nobody is going to risk their own credit score or whatever just to get back at banks, when the idea seems unlikely to work anyway. so it would need an element of the "book burning party" approach. get people to ACCIDENTALLY fight for the right cause. maybe create a gigantic scare that hackers can get your personal information via bank transfer information and the only way to stay safe is to halt all payments to large companies for 30 days.
Now you're talking. Something like that.
Best to make sure whatever it is is 169% legal though, if you're going to poke the penguin.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 27, 2012, 06:36:12 PM
Quote from: v3x on June 27, 2012, 06:35:01 PM
a "hey guys lets all do this to show those bastards!" campaign wouldn't work. nobody is going to risk their own credit score or whatever just to get back at banks, when the idea seems unlikely to work anyway. so it would need an element of the "book burning party" approach. get people to ACCIDENTALLY fight for the right cause. maybe create a gigantic scare that hackers can get your personal information via bank transfer information and the only way to stay safe is to halt all payments to large companies for 30 days.
Now you're talking. Something like that.
Best to make sure whatever it is is 169% legal though, if you're going to poke the penguin.
"War of the Worlds" was legal. We need something like that.
Quote from: v3x on June 27, 2012, 06:38:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 27, 2012, 06:36:12 PM
Quote from: v3x on June 27, 2012, 06:35:01 PM
a "hey guys lets all do this to show those bastards!" campaign wouldn't work. nobody is going to risk their own credit score or whatever just to get back at banks, when the idea seems unlikely to work anyway. so it would need an element of the "book burning party" approach. get people to ACCIDENTALLY fight for the right cause. maybe create a gigantic scare that hackers can get your personal information via bank transfer information and the only way to stay safe is to halt all payments to large companies for 30 days.
Now you're talking. Something like that.
Best to make sure whatever it is is 169% legal though, if you're going to poke the penguin.
"War of the Worlds" was legal. We need something like that.
I think they "fixed" that, not long afterward.
That would be a great idea if turns out to be legal. Also, I don't think anyone was suggesting a "hey guys let's get the bastards" as a campaign angle, buttflaps.
Quote from: Net on June 27, 2012, 07:13:28 PM
Quote from: v3x on June 27, 2012, 06:38:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 27, 2012, 06:36:12 PM
Quote from: v3x on June 27, 2012, 06:35:01 PM
a "hey guys lets all do this to show those bastards!" campaign wouldn't work. nobody is going to risk their own credit score or whatever just to get back at banks, when the idea seems unlikely to work anyway. so it would need an element of the "book burning party" approach. get people to ACCIDENTALLY fight for the right cause. maybe create a gigantic scare that hackers can get your personal information via bank transfer information and the only way to stay safe is to halt all payments to large companies for 30 days.
Now you're talking. Something like that.
Best to make sure whatever it is is 169% legal though, if you're going to poke the penguin.
"War of the Worlds" was legal. We need something like that.
I think they "fixed" that, not long afterward.
That would be a great idea if turns out to be legal. Also, I don't think anyone was suggesting a "hey guys let's get the bastards" as a campaign angle, buttflaps.
Stating the obvious is how I begin most of my comments, if you haven't noticed.
Quote from: v3x on June 27, 2012, 07:16:46 PM
Quote from: Net on June 27, 2012, 07:13:28 PM
Quote from: v3x on June 27, 2012, 06:38:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on June 27, 2012, 06:36:12 PM
Quote from: v3x on June 27, 2012, 06:35:01 PM
a "hey guys lets all do this to show those bastards!" campaign wouldn't work. nobody is going to risk their own credit score or whatever just to get back at banks, when the idea seems unlikely to work anyway. so it would need an element of the "book burning party" approach. get people to ACCIDENTALLY fight for the right cause. maybe create a gigantic scare that hackers can get your personal information via bank transfer information and the only way to stay safe is to halt all payments to large companies for 30 days.
Now you're talking. Something like that.
Best to make sure whatever it is is 169% legal though, if you're going to poke the penguin.
"War of the Worlds" was legal. We need something like that.
I think they "fixed" that, not long afterward.
That would be a great idea if turns out to be legal. Also, I don't think anyone was suggesting a "hey guys let's get the bastards" as a campaign angle, buttflaps.
Stating the obvious is how I begin most of my comments, if you haven't noticed.
:crankey:
So who is the target audience here?
What kind of loan payments would best bust banker balls?
Net,
poetic genius
Car payments, motgages. Big ticket items. Credit cards and other small loans, not so much.
I'M ALREADY
doing all of these things, you spags need to get on it.
I ALSO
encourage the notion that it was nigel's idea in the first place, for when it all comes down. always blame charley, it totally works!
Quote from: Net on June 27, 2012, 04:55:37 PM
:mittens:
Is there a ballpark figure on how many people it would take?
Has anything like this ever been done before that would suggest what the banks' likely response would be?
There's this: http://www.occupystudentdebtcampaign.org/ (http://www.occupystudentdebtcampaign.org/), but so far it's gotten nowhere near the number of pledges (1 million, IIRC) for organized non-payment.
Quote from: kingyak on June 27, 2012, 08:30:59 PM
Quote from: Net on June 27, 2012, 04:55:37 PM
:mittens:
Is there a ballpark figure on how many people it would take?
Has anything like this ever been done before that would suggest what the banks' likely response would be?
There's this: http://www.occupystudentdebtcampaign.org/ (http://www.occupystudentdebtcampaign.org/), but so far it's gotten nowhere near the number of pledges (1 million, IIRC) for organized non-payment.
And it won't. Because people for the most part will not risk their own (however dubious) financial security for anyone else, regardless of how much they agree with the goals. "Let's get together and DO something about this" rarely works, and in the case of Occupy _________, that's especially true. They'll do the "get together" part, but when it comes to the "do something" part, they're lost. Nobody knows what to do, or nobody is willing to do it, or they can't agree on the specifics.
This is why it's better to trick people into doing something. Make it a gut reaction. Make their worrying about their mythical financial security work
against the establishment, instead of for it.
Perhaps invent a story of a series of personal identification theft through different kinds of transfers to large companies, not just by bank, but also through those quick loan/check cashing places, and maybe even like wire transfer services, and that PI that was stolen was later used to create a homegrown tururism scare, or "actual tururism" might be enacted in these names, and the people whose identities got stolen got disappeared so thoroughly that before it could get straightened out, it was too late?
Sources of the story (who want to remain anonymous, because they have been forbidden to tell the public) would advise everyone to hold onto their car, house, rent, and other payments for a particular month until it gets sorted out.
Of course, these anonymous sources would say, you won't be able to call your loan holder companies and ask them outright, because they might be seen as whistleblowers and lose their jobs or worse.
There might be rumors of call centers who handle customer service calls for loan holder companies and banks have stepped up monitoring the customer service representatives. This ID theft is not a widely known fact in the business, but you never can tell, and there is the industry image to preserve.
Or is that too far fetched?
I'd believe it.
Quote from: The Freeky of SCIENCE! on June 28, 2012, 06:19:44 AM
Perhaps invent a story of a series of personal identification theft through different kinds of transfers to large companies, not just by bank, but also through those quick loan/check cashing places, and maybe even like wire transfer services, and that PI that was stolen was later used to create a homegrown tururism scare, or "actual tururism" might be enacted in these names, and the people whose identities got stolen got disappeared so thoroughly that before it could get straightened out, it was too late?
Sources of the story (who want to remain anonymous, because they have been forbidden to tell the public) would advise everyone to hold onto their car, house, rent, and other payments for a particular month until it gets sorted out.
Of course, these anonymous sources would say, you won't be able to call your loan holder companies and ask them outright, because they might be seen as whistleblowers and lose their jobs or worse.
There might be rumors of call centers who handle customer service calls for loan holder companies and banks have stepped up monitoring the customer service representatives. This ID theft is not a widely known fact in the business, but you never can tell, and there is the industry image to preserve.
Or is that too far fetched?
I'd believe it.
It's good, but I think it's a little too heavy on details. The more facts you give out the more facts can be checked and debunked. Plus the TL;DR factor. Maybe this, streamlined a bit and minus a few details, would work. Given how fast people pick up any other "look out for Bullshit Event X" story they see on facebook, it's got at least a decent chance.
We should craft a viable story and get it released on Facebook and Twitter. But also (in case it actually works) we should figure out how to obfuscate its origination here (i.e. don't use your OWN facebook/twitter account to release it into the wild, because knowing what I do about the way the interbutts work, it would easily be traceable back to PD based on where it originates on social media and what those account holders have in common - they all also have accounts at PD).
Oh yeah, I agree with all of that. But 1. it's easier to streamline something than to try and flesh it out, IMO, and 2. Maybe move this section of discussion (or the thread) to OMF.
I wouldn't even feel comfortable doing anything with this idea unless I had a fake IP address and from a location I don't ever go, let alone doing it with my own FB.