Quote from: VERBL on September 25, 2012, 10:48:19 AM
Okay, I guess I just don't see the sense of redefining "prostitution" to cover essentially what is covered by "wage labor", since some highly impressive minds have already done a pretty good job of illustrating how awful the latter is (at least as far back as Marx), all while the former adds on a couple special layers of awful that should be differentiated from the normal kind of awful.
Okay, I can see how I was sliding towards that comparison (wage slavery in general versus wage slavery in the sex industry), and indeed, such a redefinition would be pointless, you are absolutely right.
However, firstly: I think most people don't work with a totally alienated attitude. They may think that they would stop doing what they do if they won the lottery (though not everyone does), but they do attach some importance to their work in addition to its financial reward. I'm sure many people are even right about this, while others are wrong about it, but refuse to face the cognitive dissonance.
And there is also something more interesting going on there, I think. First of all, let me state for the record that all in all I am happy with my situation, though I've been wishing to change it in the near to medium future for longer than I care to remember (I've painted myself into a difficult corner), and I am certainly not exploited. Not by others, and not (any longer) by me. Still, I believe transfer of the term 'prostitution' from doing sex for money to the kind of work I do has some justification over and above my opinions about the debiliating effects of wage slavery/alienated labour.
The kind of free-lance competence-rental business that I run and also serve as the sole asset of (okay, I also need computer and internet to work), which happens to be translating diverse shit I am not interested in at all (again, there is a marginal benefit of knowing quite a lot but really not
that much about a very diverse set of fields, but I tend to acquire that when I'm not working, anyway, only the set of fields is much more to my liking), but which could also be free-lance copywriting, free-lance commercial graphic art, free-lance performing art etc., has a number of other qualities that make it similar to work in the sex industry:
1. Lack of a reliable time-table. I read on this board about enjoying Saturday nights: well I enjoy my Saturday nights as much as the next fool along, but more often then not I don't actually know when my next Saturday night is going to happen: it can be tomorrow, or it can be next Tuesday morning, depending on the calls I get and the jobs I accept from punters. On average, I get one or two Saturday nights per week, possibly even slightly more. But sometimes I don't get any for 3 or 4 weeks, and sometimes my life becomes devoid of paid work for similar periods, which begins to hurt after a week or two. The whole thing has far from trivial lifestyle effects, and I know people who have become quite dysfunctional over failing to handle that.
2. The temptation of self-exploitation. "If I can do 3 shoots a week, why can't I do 5 and treat myself to something really nice with all that cash" - this could be a mid-career thought in the head of our poor porn princess. "If I can translate a hundred thousand characters in the next 78 hours, then surely I can translate thirty thousand more, the guy's offering triple money, besides, if I do him now, he is likely to come back for more" - is the sort of idea I need to deal with on a regular basis. It is a hard decision to make when winter is coming, we have a gas boiler driving the central heating and the price of gas is up.
3. The danger of a pretence of delayed gratification masking serious (or not so serious, but still) damage to self, to health, to social relationships: "this guy is asking me to do something pretty gross, but if I can keep this up for another month, I'll have enough to take a six-month break somewhere really nice to invent the rest of my life..." - or: "my wife's stressed out, I've not had time to pick up a guitar for weeks, I don't remember the last time I had anything like a conversation with any of the kids, my friends don't call anymore, but I am on a roll, if I have the discipline to do consistent work 10 hours a day for the next three weeks, I'll get a packet that will buy me some leisure to catch up with all those things... now that I have some leisure, I'm so fucking tired I can only work off my sleep deficit and laze about for a week or two, by which time it transpires that more money is needed and there's a decent job being offered". Something like that was part of the reason the mother of my three boys left me. I'm sure I don't wish I could have been be a sex-slave instead, but it did traumatise lives and was horrifically painful. I've never been a self-harmer, but on two occasions I dug sizable chunks out of my knee with my nails. My fifteen-year-old son told me a few days ago that he is finally coming out of denial and is beginning to accept that he's been depressed for the last four years, since the divorce and has only been getting better over the last year. (Sorry to be such an attention whore, I must stop that.)
Quote from: VERBL on September 25, 2012, 10:48:19 AM
And I'd wager that in any culture on earth, there's a basic difference between sex and other stuff, which you can notice with the next thought experiment: would you feel very weird about doing X for a friend in need, assuming you have the time and energy to do it and neither dearly love nor strongly dislike said friend? Substitute X with sex to their liking on the one hand, or any other activity (translation, writing, lifting furniture, etc.) on the other.
While cultural hang-ups regarding sex probably make the difference bigger than it has to be, I'm willing to bet there's a difference, universally, in every human culture that ever existed.
Okay, the thought-experiment is a nice touch and I fully agree. But I think the "special status of sex" is extremely varied across cultures and across individuals. And the hang-ups do cause most of the demand for the sex-industry, I think.
Also, I have known some people who, while proceeding more carefully than when helping someone to move house, would actually proceed with sex in place of 'X'. Are they Bad People
TM? I don't think so. What can we say about the privileged status of sex in the life of hairless apes? A great deal, I am sure. Other thread?
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 25, 2012, 11:17:23 AM
Yes, and the fact that people are choosing to explore, in-depth, whether there aren't relevant differences between translation services and porn (there are, obviously) rather than laying out a clear and concise argument about what qualities make porn exploitative to the point that there is moral obligation on the part of the consumer/viewer to not support it, speaks volumes.
That's like a Snide Comment
TM, right? But actually, the compare-and-contrast job I am trying to do here is, in my irritatingly divergent and roundabout manner, an attempt at figuring out what gives the sex industry it's (you have to admit, I think, do you?) very particular flavour of nasty. I think some of the ingredients are sex-related, but others are not, and are shared by some (but not all) other types of work.
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 25, 2012, 11:17:23 AM
...it brings up an important question about how porn stacks up, exploitation-wise, relative to other common options. Presumably, people working in porn know that there are dish-washing jobs, dependency situations where you can get taken out or help paying bills in exchange for sex, etc. and they chose porn. What do they do, if we imagine your porn is limited to X Discordian approved levels of exploitation, when these jobs don't exist? Dish-washing? If so, why don't they choose dish-washing now? Could it be they see porn as a better option? And when we think about that for a moment, doesn't a seem that a lot of this discussion is basically a soft form of paternalism. Hey kid, you're not smart enough to know what's best for you. Let *me* do your thinking for you. Are you folks comfortable with that?
Valid comment, I think. So far not addressed.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on September 25, 2012, 12:08:52 PM
It stands to reason that only fucked up, perverted, evil and badwrong people will seek work in this industry of vice and horror. People like that don't wash dishes for a living. People like that eat children and take drugs.
The satyrical sentiment brings tears of concord to mine eyes.
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 03:07:48 PM
Babboonery, ITT.
Yep! :lulz:
LMNO, thank you for the advice. I don't see what not referencing this thread would achieve? Apart from that, if you still think this is no longer relevant enough to the OP (I think it kind of is, but not vitally), I'd be happy to move. Can I do that myself, and if yes, how?
Jesus H Christ.
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 05:39:29 PM
Jesus H Christ.
Okay, I missed the last three or four. How do I go about repairing the damage?
Or, seeing as you have the thread-splitter all ready and oiled up, would you be so kind as to... please?
Thanks very much.
Holist, that reads as a very well-thought out philosophical argument.
However, it really is miles away from the reality of the situation. You may want to read up on The Barstool Experiment (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,10125.0.html) for now. This board tends to deal with things in a pragmatic, rather than idealistic, way. If what you're proposing doesn't reflect the reality, all the reality of a situation, then you are mistaking the map for the territory.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 25, 2012, 05:48:18 PM
Holist, that reads as a very well-thought out philosophical argument.
However, it really is miles away from the reality of the situation. You may want to read up on The Barstool Experiment (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,10125.0.html) for now. This board tends to deal with things in a pragmatic, rather than idealistic, way. If what you're proposing doesn't reflect the reality, all the reality of a situation, then you are mistaking the map for the territory.
No disrespect, but I really do not get what you are getting at. To the point of actually doubting that you read what is now the OP instead of just skimming it quickly.
It is not philosophical: it is subjective, emotional in places and rhetorical as well (a well-thought-out philosophical argument needs to be practically devoid of those). And, the reality of which situation? The situation of the Porn Princess
TM? The situation of, heaven forbid, people who take a lucrative brief dip into the sex industry and come out without major scars? The situation of those (I agree they must be unicorn-ish, but 7 billion is like a lot) who actually find a fulfilling profession in it? The situation of consumers of porn? The situation of people who, while not actually using their genitals to work, feel that they are prostituting themselves to a certain extent? It seemed, earlier, that discussion of the degree to which the OP's highly emotionally charged story was representative of the sex industry was deemed on-topic, along with discussion about whether the conclusion of Roger's OP (you know, porn is commodification of people, and - as such, or perhaps due to the additional features of sex-work, intrinsically, morally bad) is actually true or perhaps not.
I read the barstool experiment, and I honestly don't think it's relevant here. To me, getting these things straight is vitally important. And I have long learnt that its incredibly rare to stumble on something that is vitally important to me but nobody else.
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 06:08:46 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 25, 2012, 05:48:18 PM
Holist, that reads as a very well-thought out philosophical argument.
However, it really is miles away from the reality of the situation. You may want to read up on The Barstool Experiment (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,10125.0.html) for now. This board tends to deal with things in a pragmatic, rather than idealistic, way. If what you're proposing doesn't reflect the reality, all the reality of a situation, then you are mistaking the map for the territory.
No disrespect, but I really do not get what you are getting at. To the point of actually doubting that you read what is now the OP instead of just skimming it quickly.
It is not philosophical: it is subjective, emotional in places and rhetorical as well (a well-thought-out philosophical argument needs to be practically devoid of those). And, the reality of which situation? The situation of the Porn PrincessTM? The situation of, heaven forbid, people who take a lucrative brief dip into the sex industry and come out without major scars? The situation of those (I agree they must be unicorn-ish, but 7 billion is like a lot) who actually find a fulfilling profession in it? The situation of consumers of porn? The situation of people who, while not actually using their genitals to work, feel that they are prostituting themselves to a certain extent? It seemed, earlier, that discussion of the degree to which the OP's highly emotionally charged story was representative of the sex industry was deemed on-topic, along with discussion about whether the conclusion of Roger's OP (you know, porn is commodification of people, and - as such, or perhaps due to the additional features of sex-work, intrinsically, morally bad) is actually true or perhaps not.
I read the barstool experiment, and I honestly don't think it's relevant here. To me, getting these things straight is vitally important. And I have long learnt that its incredibly rare to stumble on something that is vitally important to me but nobody else.
1. The porn discussion had covered all the points you raised by the time you arrived to the conversation, and much of the heat you got was because people are annoyed by someone who wants to retrace steps through known territory. You raised no new points, and people were uninterested in rehashing the same conversation that just took place. Furthermore, you were being borderline obstinate in your remarks which doesn't work out very well.
2. Everyone is already familiar with the figurative use of "prostitute" to mean anyone who must do something uncomfortable for a living. Your insistence on this as if it is not something already well established causes people to question your motive. There's no additional equation to be made beyond the superficial, figurative sense of the word. There is no equality between experiences, so stop trying to create one.
3. PDCOM, Inc., or one of its various subsidiaries, will be happy to reimburse you for the cost of the boot you have apparently lost inside the carcass of this horse, but you're going to have to step away from the horse to receive the compensation.
I find the now-OP mostly thoughtful and sensible, especially the part between the two quotes (of me :thanks:.)
And I'm sorry to hear about how your wage slavery has hurt you and the people around you. It sounds truly awful.
I could go on about what my mother does to set limits to her self-exploitation as a translator but it seems you are aware of what you can and cannot do, so I won't go on about it unless you ask me to.
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 05:36:58 PM
Quote from: VERBL on September 25, 2012, 10:48:19 AM
And I'd wager that in any culture on earth, there's a basic difference between sex and other stuff, which you can notice with the next thought experiment: would you feel very weird about doing X for a friend in need, assuming you have the time and energy to do it and neither dearly love nor strongly dislike said friend? Substitute X with sex to their liking on the one hand, or any other activity (translation, writing, lifting furniture, etc.) on the other.
While cultural hang-ups regarding sex probably make the difference bigger than it has to be, I'm willing to bet there's a difference, universally, in every human culture that ever existed.
Okay, the thought-experiment is a nice touch and I fully agree. But I think the "special status of sex" is extremely varied across cultures and across individuals. And the hang-ups do cause most of the demand for the sex-industry, I think.
Also, I have known some people who, while proceeding more carefully than when helping someone to move house, would actually proceed with sex in place of 'X'. Are they Bad PeopleTM? I don't think so. What can we say about the privileged status of sex in the life of hairless apes? A great deal, I am sure. Other thread?
The point was not in any way whatsoever that someone is a Bad Person. The point is only that sex is universally special to our species, and its commodification is, as a result, fundamentally different from the commodification of other aspects of a human being.
The greater point is, again, that while wage slavery is badwrong, when it is combined with sex – including and in some ways especially on camera – it's a whole different breed of badwrong.
Hence my personal irritation at your line of argumentation looking for the commonalities between porn work and other forms of wage slavery in a thread devoted to the specific evils associated with porn work.
Apart from that, I don't feel I have much to add. You don't have to convince me that being a freelancer is tough, nor that being a wage slave of any other kind is tough. I'm with you on that, and I think most of the people here are.
It's also worth mentioning that this community has had some very recent, very bad experience with discussions about Who Has It Worse, in the line of patriarchy/kyriarchy threads that preceded the porn thread. I think that might help you understand the irritation some have displayed, including myself.
All prostitutes are happy people. I've seen it in movies. Sort of like how all London children are loveable scamps and Uncle Albert was that way because he was HAPPY, not ON DRUGS.
Quote from: v3x on September 25, 2012, 06:16:47 PM
1. The porn discussion had covered all the points you raised by the time you arrived to the conversation, and much of the heat you got was because people are annoyed by someone who wants to retrace steps through known territory. You raised no new points, and people were uninterested in rehashing the same conversation that just took place. Furthermore, you were being borderline obstinate in your remarks which doesn't work out very well.
2. Everyone is already familiar with the figurative use of "prostitute" to mean anyone who must do something uncomfortable for a living. Your insistence on this as if it is not something already well established causes people to question your motive. There's no additional equation to be made beyond the superficial, figurative sense of the word. There is no equality between experiences, so stop trying to create one.
3. PDCOM, Inc., or one of its various subsidiaries, will be happy to reimburse you for the cost of the boot you have apparently lost inside the carcass of this horse, but you're going to have to step away from the horse to receive the compensation.
That is oh so magnanimious and lenient of you, and it would be so great to step away from the horse and claim my reward, except... it's not actually true.
I'm often guilty of being vague and roundabout in the way I manage to write things down. Hopefully, that will improve with practice.
However, right now I think it is very clear that:
1. My suggestion that there are similarities between working in the sex-industry and working in freelance brain-leasing (or person-leasing, as in the performing arts) beyond both being forms of wage-slavery had not been discussed in the porn discussion before I introduced it, and neither was my suggestion following from it, namely that the question of what makes sex-work somehow icky and how much of that is that specific to sex-work only is unclear and worthy of investigation.
2. I was, despite everyone being familiar with the figurative use of the word, told off for using it that way. Also, I offered arguments as to why there are parallels, similarities ("equality" was a straw man, I did not claim that, closest I came was "not all that different"). You state that "there is no additional equation to be made beyond the superficial, figurative use of the word". Please argue, and shoot down my arguments, or just give up (walk away from the horse
you don't even want to kick anymore).
3. :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: I refuse to believe that you (or anyone) can actually speak for "PDCOM, Inc., or one of its various subsidiaries".
And the 33% extra free: I was talking to 4 other people. And Roger. When suggested, I came over here. What's it to you, really? :lulz:
Also, about your work, Holist...This is the best of all possible worlds, so it follows that you are getting the best wage and conditions you could possibly get. Be happy.
And I wrote you rant for you.
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 06:59:17 PM
All prostitutes are happy people. I've seen it in movies. Sort of like how all London children are loveable scamps and Uncle Albert was that way because he was HAPPY, not ON DRUGS.
As I said, and Roger. And a half. :lulz:
I'm off to read a rant.
I'm between tricks, but will be up most of the night.
Your Friendly Neighbourhood Happy Prostitute
TM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 07:07:18 PM
Also, about your work, Holist...This is the best of all possible worlds, so it follows that you are getting the best wage and conditions you could possibly get. Be happy.
Quite right, that. Only the world is changing, always changing. And I can choose to have some say in it.
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 07:12:03 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 07:07:18 PM
Also, about your work, Holist...This is the best of all possible worlds, so it follows that you are getting the best wage and conditions you could possibly get. Be happy.
Quite right, that. Only the world is changing, always changing. And I can choose to have some say in it.
It can't change. If it's the best of all possible worlds, change would be by definition BAD.
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 07:06:41 PM
Quote from: v3x on September 25, 2012, 06:16:47 PM
1. The porn discussion had covered all the points you raised by the time you arrived to the conversation, and much of the heat you got was because people are annoyed by someone who wants to retrace steps through known territory. You raised no new points, and people were uninterested in rehashing the same conversation that just took place. Furthermore, you were being borderline obstinate in your remarks which doesn't work out very well.
2. Everyone is already familiar with the figurative use of "prostitute" to mean anyone who must do something uncomfortable for a living. Your insistence on this as if it is not something already well established causes people to question your motive. There's no additional equation to be made beyond the superficial, figurative sense of the word. There is no equality between experiences, so stop trying to create one.
3. PDCOM, Inc., or one of its various subsidiaries, will be happy to reimburse you for the cost of the boot you have apparently lost inside the carcass of this horse, but you're going to have to step away from the horse to receive the compensation.
That is oh so magnanimious and lenient of you, and it would be so great to step away from the horse and claim my reward, except... it's not actually true.
I'm often guilty of being vague and roundabout in the way I manage to write things down. Hopefully, that will improve with practice.
However, right now I think it is very clear that:
1. My suggestion that there are similarities between working in the sex-industry and working in freelance brain-leasing (or person-leasing, as in the performing arts) beyond both being forms of wage-slavery had not been discussed in the porn discussion before I introduced it, and neither was my suggestion following from it, namely that the question of what makes sex-work somehow icky and how much of that is that specific to sex-work only is unclear and worthy of investigation.
2. I was, despite everyone being familiar with the figurative use of the word, told off for using it that way. Also, I offered arguments as to why there are parallels, similarities ("equality" was a straw man, I did not claim that, closest I came was "not all that different"). You state that "there is no additional equation to be made beyond the superficial, figurative use of the word". Please argue, and shoot down my arguments, or just give up (walk away from the horse you don't even want to kick anymore).
3. :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: I refuse to believe that you (or anyone) can actually speak for "PDCOM, Inc., or one of its various subsidiaries".
And the 33% extra free: I was talking to 4 other people. And Roger. When suggested, I came over here. What's it to you, really? :lulz:
What's it to me? Nothing. I'm just feeding the monkeys. That's what zoos are for, isn't it?
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 07:10:44 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 06:59:17 PM
All prostitutes are happy people. I've seen it in movies. Sort of like how all London children are loveable scamps and Uncle Albert was that way because he was HAPPY, not ON DRUGS.
As I said, and Roger. And a half. :lulz:
I'm off to read a rant.
I'm between tricks, but will be up most of the night.
Your Friendly Neighbourhood Happy ProstituteTM
:butthurt:
So, I see this didn't turn into a wage slavery thread, it's just more crying and carrying on by Holist because he didn't get to join the Oppressed Club as a full member.
Well done, Holist. You are a fucking GENIUS. You should be put up for the Nobel Prize for Pseudoscience, and go on the lecture circuit.
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 07:24:43 PM
So, I see this didn't turn into a wage slavery thread, it's just more crying and carrying on by Holist because he didn't get to join the Oppressed Club as a full member.
Well done, Holist. You are a fucking GENIUS. You should be put up for the Nobel Prize for Pseudoscience, and go on the lecture circuit.
Well actually I tried it. Wasn't really my thing, AND I got kicked out of the Oppressed Club.
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 07:29:35 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 07:24:43 PM
So, I see this didn't turn into a wage slavery thread, it's just more crying and carrying on by Holist because he didn't get to join the Oppressed Club as a full member.
Well done, Holist. You are a fucking GENIUS. You should be put up for the Nobel Prize for Pseudoscience, and go on the lecture circuit.
Well actually I tried it. Wasn't really my thing, AND I got kicked out of the Oppressed Club.
But why? Your work is just as degrading as prostitution, right? MORE. I mean, you have to WORK, which is way worse than getting beaten up by pimps and shit.
Quote from: v3x on September 25, 2012, 07:13:25 PM
What's it to me? Nothing. I'm just feeding the monkeys. That's what zoos are for, isn't it?
AAHHH! Cheers!
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 07:30:59 PM
But why? Your work is just as degrading as prostitution, right? MORE. I mean, you have to WORK, which is way worse than getting beaten up by pimps and shit.
Well, yeah, you know, I was down with the programme... but then the lectures, the popularity, the money... I understand they had to kick me out.
This is the part where Holist runs away from his bullshit with "jokes", assuming that we will not of course remember every asshole thing he said.
Well, at least *I* will.
I'm still trying to figure out his point.
Is it, "Anything anyone does for money is inherently a bad thing" which would then put office work and porn on a sliding scale?
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 07:35:26 PM
This is the part where Holist runs away from his bullshit with "jokes", assuming that we will not of course remember every asshole thing he said.
Well, at least *I* will.
Right, right. Could you please point me at a piece of bullshit so I can attempt to do something other than run away from it, please?
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 25, 2012, 07:37:27 PM
I'm still trying to figure out his point.
Is it, "Anything anyone does for money is inherently a bad thing" which would then put office work and porn on a sliding scale?
Close, but no cigar. Doing anything exclusively for money and for no other reason is inherently a bad thing (not necessarily the thing in itself, but doing it that way), which puts totally alienated work near porn in that respect. Porn does also have something inherently troubling about it, probably due to the special status of sex in human life. These things do not contradict each other and can be both discussed.
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 07:38:06 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 07:35:26 PM
This is the part where Holist runs away from his bullshit with "jokes", assuming that we will not of course remember every asshole thing he said.
Well, at least *I* will.
Right, right. Could you please point me at a piece of bullshit so I can attempt to do something other than run away from it, please?
How about the point you're trying to make in this thread? :lulz:
Quotewhich puts totally alienated work near porn in that respect
How near?
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 07:41:43 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 25, 2012, 07:37:27 PM
I'm still trying to figure out his point.
Is it, "Anything anyone does for money is inherently a bad thing" which would then put office work and porn on a sliding scale?
Close, but no cigar. Doing anything exclusively for money and for no other reason is inherently a bad thing (not necessarily the thing in itself, but doing it that way), which puts totally alienated work near porn in that respect. Porn does also have something inherently troubling about it, probably due to the special status of sex in human life. These things do not contradict each other and can be both discussed.
WORKING A DAY JOB TO FEED YOUR KIDS IS THE SAME AS PROSTITUTION.
IF YOU CAN'T DO WHATEVER YOU LIKE TO MAKE MONEY, YOU ARE A PROSTITUTE.
UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!
Hey, that sort of shoots the bottom out of your "happy hooker" theory, doesn't it?
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 25, 2012, 07:43:35 PM
Quotewhich puts totally alienated work near porn in that respect
How near?
Now he's saying that porn and prostitution AREN'T healthy things? :lulz:
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 07:43:26 PM
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 07:38:06 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 07:35:26 PM
This is the part where Holist runs away from his bullshit with "jokes", assuming that we will not of course remember every asshole thing he said.
Well, at least *I* will.
Right, right. Could you please point me at a piece of bullshit so I can attempt to do something other than run away from it, please?
How about the point you're trying to make in this thread? :lulz:
That would be great, only I don't see why it is bullshit. You have not explained it (not that you're obliged to, or anything). You caricature it here and elsewhere, attribute views that use some of the same words but I haven't actually expressed them, then get angry/desperate/self-righteous/denigrating with me. I guess that may well be simply because you get angry/dersperate/self-righteous/denigrating no matter what... but perhaps there's some other reason for it. I don't get it, sorry.
Holist, Roger keeps giving you very clear examples of special brands of awful you can get as a sex worker but not as a language professional. Yeah, some of the time it might read like an exaggerated joke, but it's only horrormirth material because it's actual reality for some people. Apart from acknowledging that you know sex work can go south way worse than other work, I haven't really seen that information given the attention it deserves. And whether you mean it to or not, the constant insistence that other things come close reads a lot like downplaying the awful.
I'm going in circles here, I know, but I'm rephrasing what I keep trying to say because I believe you mean this well and are interested in understanding the clash between what you mean and how some of us react to it.
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 07:47:42 PM
That would be great, only I don't see why it is bullshit.
That's because your head has already reached its bullshit capacity.
Quote from: VERBL on September 25, 2012, 07:50:35 PM
Holist, Roger keeps giving you very clear examples of special brands of awful you can get as a sex worker but not as a language professional.
He doesn't actually read the parts where his beliefs are challenged.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 25, 2012, 07:43:35 PM
Quotewhich puts totally alienated work near porn in that respect
How near?
In
that respect, very near, or right up with. Because (as I have already said), I do agree that people who are actually happy with sex-work, or get a kick out of sex-work and don't just do it for money and lack of better ideas, must be truly outliers (not primarily because of something inherently wrong with porn, but because of something - a great, great deal - factually wrong with the industry).
While in other respects, sex-work has
some similarities with the kind of work that requires deep, intimate, in a sense risk-taking involvement (like the performing arts).
And, as I have said and do believe, it also has some special features, all of its own: in the current setting, largely very unpleasant to downright horrible. But again, I don't think that's a necessary consequence of humans being the way they are (in general and about sex in particular). I think it is largely cultural, a consequence of all those general shortcomings of our civilization that we Discordians sometimes like to harp on about.
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 07:53:15 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 25, 2012, 07:43:35 PM
Quotewhich puts totally alienated work near porn in that respect
How near?
In that respect, very near, or right up with.
UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG!
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 07:53:15 PM
In that respect, very near, or right up with.
This is where you and the rest of reality disagree.
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 07:53:15 PM
And, as I have said and do believe, it also has some special features, all of its own: in the current setting, largely very unpleasant to downright horrible. But again, I don't think that's a necessary consequence of humans being the way they are (in general and about sex in particular). I think it is largely cultural, a consequence of all those general shortcomings of our civilization that we Discordians sometimes like to harp on about.
Could be otherwise =/=
is otherwise.
The argument that it needn't be this way has no bearing on the question, "is it this way". Which is, to me, the question of the porn princess thread.
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 07:52:05 PM
Quote from: VERBL on September 25, 2012, 07:50:35 PM
Holist, Roger keeps giving you very clear examples of special brands of awful you can get as a sex worker but not as a language professional.
He doesn't actually read the parts where his beliefs are challenged.
No, I do. I have said it (I think sufficiently, for Christ's sake, I am actually taking it as read, it is bloody obvious): terrible, terrible, awful things happen to a lot of people in the sex industry. That's evil, bad, shouldn't be allowed.
If I made the impression that I disagree with this, that's my clumsy, my inattention, I am sorry, because I do, I mean I do agree with this. And no, that kind of horrible does not happen in translation services. (Similar levels of terrible do happen in the music business, especially the nowadays so popular televised karaoke talent shows, and in a number of professional sports, all over the world, but with significantly lower frequency.
BUT - firstly, it's not all of the sex-industry, i.e. it is possible to do this without the horrific aspects, AND my points about the above similarities with other lines of work stand.
Remember, kids! Sitting in that cubicle is JUST THE SAME as, say, being FUCKED BY RON JEREMY'S DISEASED MEMBER in EVERY ORIFICE. There is no practical difference!
:hosrie:
Also, if you're going to have to do a job you don't find personally exciting, you may as well just get out on the corner and say "Business?" to everyone that goes by.
Because it's either THAT, or you will hurt Holist's feelings by putting big fucking dents in his sense of entitlement. And nobody wants that.
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 07:59:13 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 07:52:05 PM
Quote from: VERBL on September 25, 2012, 07:50:35 PM
Holist, Roger keeps giving you very clear examples of special brands of awful you can get as a sex worker but not as a language professional.
He doesn't actually read the parts where his beliefs are challenged.
No, I do. I have said it (I think sufficiently, for Christ's sake, I am actually taking it as read, it is bloody obvious): terrible, terrible, awful things happen to a lot of people in the sex industry. That's evil, bad, shouldn't be allowed.
Yet here you are, with your bare face hanging out, suggesting that doing translation work is JUST THE SAME.
This implies that you may in fact be retarded. Are you retarded?
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 07:59:47 PM
Remember, kids! Sitting in that cubicle is JUST THE SAME as, say, being FUCKED BY RON JEREMY'S DISEASED MEMBER in EVERY ORIFICE. There is no practical difference!
:hosrie:
Also, if you're going to have to do a job you don't find personally exciting, you may as well just get out on the corner and say "Business?" to everyone that goes by.
Because it's either THAT, or you will hurt Holist's feelings by putting big fucking dents in his sense of entitlement. And nobody wants that.
I'm gonna ask my boss what my chances are for a Workman's Comp claim to compensate me for chlamydia. BRB I'M SURE IT'LL GO REAL WELL.
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 05:36:58 PM
Still, I believe transfer of the term 'prostitution' from doing sex for money to the kind of work I do has some justification over and above my opinions about the debiliating effects of wage slavery/alienated labour.
Aaand, that's as far as I'm going in the original post. Heel-digging and screeching, that's new. Not.
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 07:10:44 PM
I'm between tricks, but will be up most of the night.
Your Friendly Neighbourhood Happy ProstituteTM
And this is where I write this one off as an irredeemable douchenugget and move on with my life.
Quote from: v3x on September 25, 2012, 08:01:05 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 07:59:47 PM
Remember, kids! Sitting in that cubicle is JUST THE SAME as, say, being FUCKED BY RON JEREMY'S DISEASED MEMBER in EVERY ORIFICE. There is no practical difference!
:hosrie:
Also, if you're going to have to do a job you don't find personally exciting, you may as well just get out on the corner and say "Business?" to everyone that goes by.
Because it's either THAT, or you will hurt Holist's feelings by putting big fucking dents in his sense of entitlement. And nobody wants that.
I'm gonna ask my boss what my chances are for a Workman's Comp claim to compensate me for chlamydia. BRB I'M SURE IT'LL GO REAL WELL.
HEY! TRANSLATORS GET CARPAL TUNNEL SYNDROME, YOU KNOW!
Quote from: Luna on September 25, 2012, 08:01:34 PM
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 05:36:58 PM
Still, I believe transfer of the term 'prostitution' from doing sex for money to the kind of work I do has some justification over and above my opinions about the debiliating effects of wage slavery/alienated labour.
Aaand, that's as far as I'm going in the original post. Heel-digging and screeching, that's new. Not.
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 07:10:44 PM
I'm between tricks, but will be up most of the night.
Your Friendly Neighbourhood Happy ProstituteTM
And this is where I write this one off as an irredeemable douchenugget and move on with my life.
Yep. Nothing to be gained here. Except cheap laughs.
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 08:01:54 PM
Quote from: v3x on September 25, 2012, 08:01:05 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 07:59:47 PM
Remember, kids! Sitting in that cubicle is JUST THE SAME as, say, being FUCKED BY RON JEREMY'S DISEASED MEMBER in EVERY ORIFICE. There is no practical difference!
:hosrie:
Also, if you're going to have to do a job you don't find personally exciting, you may as well just get out on the corner and say "Business?" to everyone that goes by.
Because it's either THAT, or you will hurt Holist's feelings by putting big fucking dents in his sense of entitlement. And nobody wants that.
I'm gonna ask my boss what my chances are for a Workman's Comp claim to compensate me for chlamydia. BRB I'M SURE IT'LL GO REAL WELL.
HEY! TRANSLATORS GET CARPAL TUNNEL SYNDROME, YOU KNOW!
Can you
believe this shit!? My boss said NO! I'm starting to think I have it even
worse than most sex workers.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 25, 2012, 07:57:41 PM
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 07:53:15 PM
In that respect, very near, or right up with.
This is where you and the rest of reality disagree.
I will unpack that statement. First, what I am saying is that working in a totally alienated manner (purely for the money) is bad. It is soul-destroying, demeaning, stultifying. This is straightforward Marxism 101, also, I think it is correct. (I don't think this about all of Marx' stuff, by the way).
And second, I am saying that in the vast majority of sex-work, as far as I can see, is totally alienated: the wast majority of people who make money by having sex on or off camera, are doing so purely to get the money. If they could get the money some other way, they would. But they can't.
And finally, I am saying, that quite apart from all the other horrible aspects of the sex industry (the exploitation, on the one hand, and the commodification of that most personal and private and joyful aspect of human life, which is sex, on the other hand), this in itself contributes significantly to it being bad. Of course the reason that the vast majority of sex-workers are totally alienated workers has a great deal to do with the fact that sex-work is the commodification of that most personal and private and joyful thing, sex - that explains the alienation aspect, but doesn't make it disappear. Funnily enough, Marx actually recognised that alienation is required in the system because it aids exploitation: as alienated work kills self-esteem, it generates people who are easier to dominate, manipulate, exploit.
And this is contrary to reality. This is my current best formulation. Can you go with that?
When your idea doesn't work, restate it.
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 07:59:47 PM
Remember, kids! Sitting in that cubicle is JUST THE SAME as, say, being FUCKED BY RON JEREMY'S DISEASED MEMBER in EVERY ORIFICE. There is no practical difference!
:hosrie:
Also, if you're going to have to do a job you don't find personally exciting, you may as well just get out on the corner and say "Business?" to everyone that goes by.
Because it's either THAT, or you will hurt Holist's feelings by putting big fucking dents in his sense of entitlement. And nobody wants that.
People work at WalMart so they don't HAVE to do stuff with dicks like Ron Jeremy's.
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 08:00:53 PM
Yet here you are, with your bare face hanging out, suggesting that doing translation work is JUST THE SAME.
This implies that you may in fact be retarded. Are you retarded?
I guess I am, because I honestly don't see the point you are making. I did initially say that I was a frontal lobe prostitute. The very term itself should make it clear that this is not the literal sense of prostitute, because, you know, it is not (primarily) their brains that literal prostitutes and porn-stars (especially those of the type you described in the Porn Princess Rant OP) rent out. Since then, I have made my position increasingly clear, it is now very clear, I think. And it is not suggesting that translation is JUST THE SAME as prostitution.
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 08:19:09 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 08:00:53 PM
Yet here you are, with your bare face hanging out, suggesting that doing translation work is JUST THE SAME.
This implies that you may in fact be retarded. Are you retarded?
I guess I am, because I honestly don't see the point you are making. I did initially say that I was a frontal lobe prostitute. The very term itself should make it clear that this is not the literal sense of prostitute, because, you know, it is not (primarily) their brains that literal prostitutes and porn-stars (especially those of the type you described in the Porn Princess Rant OP) rent out. Since then, I have made my position increasingly clear, it is now very clear, I think. And it is not suggesting that translation is JUST THE SAME as prostitution.
Actually, you just said they were equivalent.
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 08:21:01 PM
Actually, you just said they were equivalent.
Actually, I didn't.
And fuck this for a game of billiards. I've got work to do. :lulz: Back in a few hours!
I think this specimen is defective, it just stays in its pen and chases its tail all day.
Quote from: v3x on September 25, 2012, 08:25:50 PM
I think this specimen is defective, it just stays in its pen and chases its tail all day.
Time for SCIENCE.
We leave it alone in its pen, see if it continues the behavior without external stimuli.
I came in early to do some filing so that I could spend the rest of the day doing more important work. Also, I hit my elbow on the filing cabinet and it hurt a little :sad: This is what it must be like to be a porn star :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:
Is that the gist of this thread? That seems to be what I got out of what I skimmed over, and all the attention it seems to deserve?
LMNO, does this strike you as being similar to what Yudowsky was talking about, when people try to widen the frame of their analogies as far as possible, instead of narrowing down the differences?
I only ask because I'm having dinner, it's bugging me, and you would know where the link to it was.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 25, 2012, 08:30:44 PM
I came in early to do some filing so that I could spend the rest of the day doing more important work. Also, I hit my elbow on the filing cabinet and it hurt a little :sad: This is what it must be like to be a porn star :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:
Is that the gist of this thread? That seems to be what I got out of what I skimmed over, and all the attention it seems to deserve?
Trippingprincezz once again cuts the crap.
:mittens:
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 25, 2012, 08:30:44 PM
I came in early to do some filing so that I could spend the rest of the day doing more important work. Also, I hit my elbow on the filing cabinet and it hurt a little :sad: This is what it must be like to be a porn star :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:
Is that the gist of this thread? That seems to be what I got out of what I skimmed over, and all the attention it seems to deserve?
Yes. What happened to you is exactly like being a porn star in the same way that hitting some turbulence in an airliner is exactly what it was like to be a passenger on the Challenger.
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 08:32:55 PM
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 25, 2012, 08:30:44 PM
I came in early to do some filing so that I could spend the rest of the day doing more important work. Also, I hit my elbow on the filing cabinet and it hurt a little :sad: This is what it must be like to be a porn star :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:
Is that the gist of this thread? That seems to be what I got out of what I skimmed over, and all the attention it seems to deserve?
Trippingprincezz once again cuts the crap.
:mittens:
I do really need to try to post more. Work has been pretty busy the last few weeks, so not much spare time. You know how it is....drafting motions, taking phone calls, it's just like getting gang-banged several times a day! Takes a lot out of you, amirite!?
I think holist should put up or shut up: become a prostitute for a year, and see if he feels the same way then.
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 25, 2012, 08:43:55 PM
I think holist should put up or shut up: become a prostitute for a year, and see if he feels the same way then.
And THEN see what he says when his pimp won't let him go at the end of the year.
So it seems that holist is saying that boring office work is similar to porn/prostitution in that they both involve getting paid for something you don't enjoy.
This is about as useful as saying that playing with a puppy is similar to getting mauled by a tiger; after all, both involve furry animals.
To be fair, he did acknowledge that there are also differences between "wage slavery" and prostitution:
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 08:08:12 PM
(the exploitation, on the one hand, and the commodification of that most personal and private and joyful aspect of human life, which is sex, on the other hand)
But this is
such a large difference that the previous similarity becomes moot and pointless. And so why even bring it up?
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 08:51:11 PM
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 25, 2012, 08:43:55 PM
I think holist should put up or shut up: become a prostitute for a year, and see if he feels the same way then.
And THEN see what he says when his pimp won't let him go at the end of the year.
Yes, exactly.
Quote from: Igor on September 25, 2012, 08:55:45 PM
But this is such a large difference that the previous similarity becomes moot and pointless. And so why even bring it up?
To argue "to avoid losing", of course.
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 08:59:41 PM
Quote from: Igor on September 25, 2012, 08:55:45 PM
But this is such a large difference that the previous similarity becomes moot and pointless. And so why even bring it up?
To argue "to avoid losing", of course.
Because admitting he might not have it so bad is losing? :lulz:
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 25, 2012, 09:01:28 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 08:59:41 PM
Quote from: Igor on September 25, 2012, 08:55:45 PM
But this is such a large difference that the previous similarity becomes moot and pointless. And so why even bring it up?
To argue "to avoid losing", of course.
Because admitting he might not have it so bad is losing? :lulz:
No, because losing an argument on the interbutts apparently adversely affects your ability to attract a mate. Hence the big red baboon ass and the screeching on his part.
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 09:03:09 PM
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 25, 2012, 09:01:28 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 08:59:41 PM
Quote from: Igor on September 25, 2012, 08:55:45 PM
But this is such a large difference that the previous similarity becomes moot and pointless. And so why even bring it up?
To argue "to avoid losing", of course.
Because admitting he might not have it so bad is losing? :lulz:
No, because losing an argument on the interbutts apparently adversely affects your ability to attract a mate. Hence the big red baboon ass and the screeching on his part.
I attracted a mate on the Internet once.
Once.
Quote from: v3x on September 25, 2012, 09:04:48 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 09:03:09 PM
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 25, 2012, 09:01:28 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 08:59:41 PM
Quote from: Igor on September 25, 2012, 08:55:45 PM
But this is such a large difference that the previous similarity becomes moot and pointless. And so why even bring it up?
To argue "to avoid losing", of course.
Because admitting he might not have it so bad is losing? :lulz:
No, because losing an argument on the interbutts apparently adversely affects your ability to attract a mate. Hence the big red baboon ass and the screeching on his part.
I attracted a mate on the Internet once.
Once.
I've had better luck hitting them with sticks.
Quote from: v3x on September 25, 2012, 09:04:48 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 09:03:09 PM
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 25, 2012, 09:01:28 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 08:59:41 PM
Quote from: Igor on September 25, 2012, 08:55:45 PM
But this is such a large difference that the previous similarity becomes moot and pointless. And so why even bring it up?
To argue "to avoid losing", of course.
Because admitting he might not have it so bad is losing? :lulz:
No, because losing an argument on the interbutts apparently adversely affects your ability to attract a mate. Hence the big red baboon ass and the screeching on his part.
I attracted a mate on the Internet once.
Once.
From your tone, it seems that losing arguments may actually be a successful strategy.
And...
...You shouldn't hang me on a hook, Johnny.
Quote from: Luna on September 25, 2012, 09:07:24 PM
Quote from: v3x on September 25, 2012, 09:04:48 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 09:03:09 PM
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 25, 2012, 09:01:28 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 08:59:41 PM
Quote from: Igor on September 25, 2012, 08:55:45 PM
But this is such a large difference that the previous similarity becomes moot and pointless. And so why even bring it up?
To argue "to avoid losing", of course.
Because admitting he might not have it so bad is losing? :lulz:
No, because losing an argument on the interbutts apparently adversely affects your ability to attract a mate. Hence the big red baboon ass and the screeching on his part.
I attracted a mate on the Internet once.
Once.
I've had better luck hitting them with sticks.
Sticks don't work here, and I can't afford to keep buying Meth for to attract them.
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 09:11:00 PM
Quote from: v3x on September 25, 2012, 09:04:48 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 09:03:09 PM
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 25, 2012, 09:01:28 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 25, 2012, 08:59:41 PM
Quote from: Igor on September 25, 2012, 08:55:45 PM
But this is such a large difference that the previous similarity becomes moot and pointless. And so why even bring it up?
To argue "to avoid losing", of course.
Because admitting he might not have it so bad is losing? :lulz:
No, because losing an argument on the interbutts apparently adversely affects your ability to attract a mate. Hence the big red baboon ass and the screeching on his part.
I attracted a mate on the Internet once.
Once.
From your tone, it seems that losing arguments may actually be a successful strategy.
it is. holist should try it some time.
Quote
And...
...You shouldn't hang me on a hook, Johnny.
Yeah. Sorry about that.
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 08:08:12 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 25, 2012, 07:57:41 PM
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 07:53:15 PM
In that respect, very near, or right up with.
This is where you and the rest of reality disagree.
I will unpack that statement. First, what I am saying is that working in a totally alienated manner (purely for the money) is bad. It is soul-destroying, demeaning, stultifying. This is straightforward Marxism 101, also, I think it is correct. (I don't think this about all of Marx' stuff, by the way).
And second, I am saying that in the vast majority of sex-work, as far as I can see, is totally alienated: the wast majority of people who make money by having sex on or off camera, are doing so purely to get the money. If they could get the money some other way, they would. But they can't.
And finally, I am saying, that quite apart from all the other horrible aspects of the sex industry (the exploitation, on the one hand, and the commodification of that most personal and private and joyful aspect of human life, which is sex, on the other hand), this in itself contributes significantly to it being bad. Of course the reason that the vast majority of sex-workers are totally alienated workers has a great deal to do with the fact that sex-work is the commodification of that most personal and private and joyful thing, sex - that explains the alienation aspect, but doesn't make it disappear. Funnily enough, Marx actually recognised that alienation is required in the system because it aids exploitation: as alienated work kills self-esteem, it generates people who are easier to dominate, manipulate, exploit.
And this is contrary to reality. This is my current best formulation. Can you go with that?
So, if I'm reading you right, what you are saying is that after you set aside the differences, sex work and other forms of work are pretty similar. Do I have that correct?
Quote from: Cain on September 25, 2012, 08:31:48 PM
LMNO, does this strike you as being similar to what Yudowsky was talking about, when people try to widen the frame of their analogies as far as possible, instead of narrowing down the differences?
I only ask because I'm having dinner, it's bugging me, and you would know where the link to it was.
Nevermind, I found it.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/ic/the_virtue_of_narrowness/
QuoteWithin their own professions, people grasp the importance of narrowness; a car mechanic knows the difference between a carburetor and a radiator, and would not think of them both as "car parts". A hunter-gatherer knows the difference between a lion and a panther. A janitor does not wipe the floor with window cleaner, even if the bottles look similar to one who has not mastered the art.
Outside their own professions, people often commit the misstep of trying to broaden a word as widely as possible, to cover as much territory as possible. Is it not more glorious, more wise, more impressive, to talk about all the apples in the world? How much loftier it must be to explain human thought in general, without being distracted by smaller questions, such as how humans invent techniques for solving a Rubik's Cube. Indeed, it scarcely seems necessary to consider specific questions at all; isn't a general theory a worthy enough accomplishment on its own?
It is the way of the curious to lift up one pebble from among a million pebbles on the shore, and see something new about it, something interesting, something different. You call these pebbles "diamonds", and ask what might be special about them—what inner qualities they might have in common, beyond the glitter you first noticed. And then someone else comes along and says: "Why not call this pebble a diamond too? And this one, and this one?" They are enthusiastic, and they mean well. For it seems undemocratic and exclusionary and elitist and unholistic to call some pebbles "diamonds", and others not. It seems... narrow-minded... if you'll pardon the phrase. Hardly open, hardly embracing, hardly communal.
Declaring all work as akin to prostitution is much more deep and wise than talking about the overwheming number of ways in they differ.
Oooh! Thanks, Cain.
Um.....are prostitutes paid an hourly wage, or are they paid by the john? If the latter then they are most assuredly not wage slaves.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 25, 2012, 08:30:44 PM
I came in early to do some filing so that I could spend the rest of the day doing more important work. Also, I hit my elbow on the filing cabinet and it hurt a little :sad: This is what it must be like to be a porn star :sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:
Is that the gist of this thread? That seems to be what I got out of what I skimmed over, and all the attention it seems to deserve?
My phone rang while I was in bed this morning and I had to sit up
and service a client. It was a soul-killing experience. If I can ever beat my addiction to things like food and warm showers, I'm getting out of this business and going somewhere to start a new life. It's probably a pipe dream, though.
I think Cain (and Elizer) have gotten to the spirit of the thing. Sorry I couldn't track tha down, I was in a meeting going over business requirements doing a double anal scene.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 25, 2012, 09:52:18 PM
I think Cain (and Elizer) have gotten to the spirit of the thing. Sorry I couldn't track tha down, I was in a meeting going over business requirements doing a double anal scene.
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
:lulz: :lulz:
LMNO, have I told you lately that I love you?
Hey, either way I'm getting my ass reamed, right?
I mean, one's only figurative, but its still equivalent, I guess.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 25, 2012, 09:52:18 PM
I think Cain (and Elizer) have gotten to the spirit of the thing. Sorry I couldn't track tha down, I was in a meeting going over business requirements doing a double anal scene.
MARRY ME!
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 25, 2012, 09:17:37 PM
So, if I'm reading you right, what you are saying is that after you set aside the differences, sex work and other forms of work are pretty similar. Do I have that correct?
'Fraid not. I'm saying one factor that makes unpleasant work unpleasant, namely complete alienation (a.k.a. doing something purely and exclusively for the money) is present in spades in sex work. Also, freelancing shares some further qualities with sex-work that make both unpleasant. And the performing arts share some other further qualities with sex-work that make both unpleasant. This is over and above the further qualities of sex work beyond being totally alienated work that are unique to it, which make it particularly, terribly unpleasant, or, rather, horrible, in a majority of instances.
Quote from: Cain on September 25, 2012, 09:18:17 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 25, 2012, 08:31:48 PM
LMNO, does this strike you as being similar to what Yudowsky was talking about, when people try to widen the frame of their analogies as far as possible, instead of narrowing down the differences?
I only ask because I'm having dinner, it's bugging me, and you would know where the link to it was.
Nevermind, I found it.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/ic/the_virtue_of_narrowness/
QuoteWithin their own professions, people grasp the importance of narrowness; a car mechanic knows the difference between a carburetor and a radiator, and would not think of them both as "car parts". A hunter-gatherer knows the difference between a lion and a panther. A janitor does not wipe the floor with window cleaner, even if the bottles look similar to one who has not mastered the art.
Outside their own professions, people often commit the misstep of trying to broaden a word as widely as possible, to cover as much territory as possible. Is it not more glorious, more wise, more impressive, to talk about all the apples in the world? How much loftier it must be to explain human thought in general, without being distracted by smaller questions, such as how humans invent techniques for solving a Rubik's Cube. Indeed, it scarcely seems necessary to consider specific questions at all; isn't a general theory a worthy enough accomplishment on its own?
It is the way of the curious to lift up one pebble from among a million pebbles on the shore, and see something new about it, something interesting, something different. You call these pebbles "diamonds", and ask what might be special about them—what inner qualities they might have in common, beyond the glitter you first noticed. And then someone else comes along and says: "Why not call this pebble a diamond too? And this one, and this one?" They are enthusiastic, and they mean well. For it seems undemocratic and exclusionary and elitist and unholistic to call some pebbles "diamonds", and others not. It seems... narrow-minded... if you'll pardon the phrase. Hardly open, hardly embracing, hardly communal.
Declaring all work as akin to prostitution is much more deep and wise than talking about the overwheming number of ways in they differ.
This is one of my most favorite LW posts, and totally fits the bill for this thread.
Quote from: holist on September 26, 2012, 02:11:10 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 25, 2012, 09:17:37 PM
So, if I'm reading you right, what you are saying is that after you set aside the differences, sex work and other forms of work are pretty similar. Do I have that correct?
'Fraid not. I'm saying one factor that makes unpleasant work unpleasant, namely complete alienation (a.k.a. doing something purely and exclusively for the money) is present in spades in sex work. Also, freelancing shares some further qualities with sex-work that make both unpleasant. And the performing arts share some other further qualities with sex-work that make both unpleasant. This is over and above the further qualities of sex work beyond being totally alienated work that are unique to it, which make it particularly, terribly unpleasant, or, rather, horrible, in a majority of instances.
So what you want to talk about is not what factors in society contribute to sex-work being uniquely eroding to the psyche, but about alienation, which sex-work generally has in common with other soul-crushing jobs?
So, why insist on borrowing terms, unless your thesis isn't strong enough on its own, using the appropriate vocabulary?
Quote from: Cain on September 25, 2012, 09:18:17 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 25, 2012, 08:31:48 PM
LMNO, does this strike you as being similar to what Yudowsky was talking about, when people try to widen the frame of their analogies as far as possible, instead of narrowing down the differences?
I only ask because I'm having dinner, it's bugging me, and you would know where the link to it was.
Nevermind, I found it.
http://lesswrong.com/lw/ic/the_virtue_of_narrowness/
QuoteWithin their own professions, people grasp the importance of narrowness; a car mechanic knows the difference between a carburetor and a radiator, and would not think of them both as "car parts". A hunter-gatherer knows the difference between a lion and a panther. A janitor does not wipe the floor with window cleaner, even if the bottles look similar to one who has not mastered the art.
Outside their own professions, people often commit the misstep of trying to broaden a word as widely as possible, to cover as much territory as possible. Is it not more glorious, more wise, more impressive, to talk about all the apples in the world? How much loftier it must be to explain human thought in general, without being distracted by smaller questions, such as how humans invent techniques for solving a Rubik's Cube. Indeed, it scarcely seems necessary to consider specific questions at all; isn't a general theory a worthy enough accomplishment on its own?
It is the way of the curious to lift up one pebble from among a million pebbles on the shore, and see something new about it, something interesting, something different. You call these pebbles "diamonds", and ask what might be special about them—what inner qualities they might have in common, beyond the glitter you first noticed. And then someone else comes along and says: "Why not call this pebble a diamond too? And this one, and this one?" They are enthusiastic, and they mean well. For it seems undemocratic and exclusionary and elitist and unholistic to call some pebbles "diamonds", and others not. It seems... narrow-minded... if you'll pardon the phrase. Hardly open, hardly embracing, hardly communal.
Declaring all work as akin to prostitution is much more deep and wise than talking about the overwheming number of ways in they differ.
SHA-BAM
I see no reason to continue talking in this thread; that post covers it.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 25, 2012, 10:18:20 PM
Hey, either way I'm getting my ass reamed, right?
I mean, one's only figurative, but its still equivalent, I guess.
Every bead I make
is a tiny glass piece of rape.
Holist, have you actually read Marx? I am just curious because of the odd inconsistency of equating the freelance writer to the alienated wage slave when, according to Marx, the writer would be an example of a non-alienated worker who is directly in control of and intimately in contact with his product, from inception to completion, and as a freelancer is not working for a manager who micromanages his every move in the production of the product, but for the end buyer. Can you explain a little more about where you are coming from with that?
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 06:49:16 AM
So what you want to talk about is not what factors in society contribute to sex-work being uniquely eroding to the psyche, but about alienation, which sex-work generally has in common with other soul-crushing jobs?
So, why insist on borrowing terms, unless your thesis isn't strong enough on its own, using the appropriate vocabulary?
First of all, I don't exactly have a thesis, I'm looking for one in an exploratory sort of manner. Is that not allowed?
And: what I want to talk about is the composition of factors that make sex-work uniquely eroding to the psyche, and about which of those factors are entirely unique to sex work and which are not. And their relative weights. I expect that some will be shared by a smaller range of ways to make bucks, some by pretty much all of them. Is that allowed? ITT?
Quote from: holist on September 26, 2012, 06:58:06 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 06:49:16 AM
So what you want to talk about is not what factors in society contribute to sex-work being uniquely eroding to the psyche, but about alienation, which sex-work generally has in common with other soul-crushing jobs?
So, why insist on borrowing terms, unless your thesis isn't strong enough on its own, using the appropriate vocabulary?
First of all, I don't exactly have a thesis, I'm looking for one in an exploratory sort of manner. Is that not allowed?
And: what I want to talk about is the composition of factors that make sex-work uniquely eroding to the psyche, and about which of those factors are entirely unique to sex work and which are not. And their relative weights. I expect that some will be shared by a smaller range of ways to make bucks, some by pretty much all of them. Is that allowed? ITT?
See, the other thread was about the unique ways that sex-work erodes the psyche, but for some reason you seemed discontent with that, and wanted to talk about the ways in which other types of work are like sex work.
Now, from my perspective you had it backwards; you would have been better off saying that sex work shares some commonalities with other types of work, rather than borrowing words from sex work and applying them to other types of work.
Do you want to talk about alienation, and the ways in which sex work, and other types of work, can be alienating? Or do you want to try to insist that freelance translating is equivalent to sex work? Because the latter is how you are coming across. Either you are having a terrible time expressing yourself, or your message itself, in my opinion, lacks merit.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 06:57:13 AM
Holist, have you actually read Marx? I am just curious because of the odd inconsistency of equating the freelance writer to the alienated wage slave when, according to Marx, the writer would be an example of a non-alienated worker who is directly in control of and intimately in contact with his product, from inception to completion. Can you explain a little more about where you are coming from with that?
Yes, I have. Not all of it, that would be excessively kinky in my book. But as I grew up in a country that was at the time declaring itself communist, then socialist, where I was forced to learn Russian from age 10 and spent all school dos under massive portraits of the three bearded guys
((http://foto.art-print-for-you.com/images/46Lenin_Marx_Engels_Bann.jpg)),
I think I've had a more thorough grounding in the ideology and the practical aspects of Marxism than most Western fashion-lefties.
I'm not saying freelance brainwork is
necessarily alienated (and I don't think sex-work is
necessarily alienated, either, though I fully agree that counterexamples must be extremely rare). I guess the point I am trying to get to is that while the factors that drive the worker towards alienation in those two fields are massively different in scale, they are somewhat similar in structure (see my numbered points in the OP).
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 07:04:01 AM
Do you want to talk about alienation, and the ways in which sex work, and other types of work, can be alienating? Or do you want to try to insist that freelance translating is equivalent to sex work?
The former.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 07:04:01 AM
Because the latter is how you are coming across. Either you are having a terrible time expressing yourself, or your message itself, in my opinion, lacks merit.
Well I'll be damned. I am sorry about that. But, sorrysorrysorry, I can't help adding that Some People
TM are also having a terrible time understanding what I say. I don't have much of a problem with that, by the way, but it is how I see things right now.
Quote from: holist on September 26, 2012, 07:05:06 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 06:57:13 AM
Holist, have you actually read Marx? I am just curious because of the odd inconsistency of equating the freelance writer to the alienated wage slave when, according to Marx, the writer would be an example of a non-alienated worker who is directly in control of and intimately in contact with his product, from inception to completion. Can you explain a little more about where you are coming from with that?
Yes, I have. Not all of it, that would be excessively kinky in my book. But as I grew up in a country that was at the time declaring itself communist, then socialist, where I was forced to learn Russian from age 10 and spent all school dos under massive portraits of the three bearded guys
((http://foto.art-print-for-you.com/images/46Lenin_Marx_Engels_Bann.jpg)),
I think I've had a more thorough grounding in the ideology and the practical aspects of Marxism than most Western fashion-lefties.
I'm not saying freelance brainwork is necessarily alienated (and I don't think sex-work is necessarily alienated, either, though I fully agree that counterexamples must be extremely rare). I guess the point I am trying to get to is that while the factors that drive the worker towards alienation in those two fields are massively different in scale, they are somewhat similar in structure (see my numbered points in the OP).
I grew up in a country that has a mountain carved into the shape of Presidents, and that has exactly jack shit to do with anything. I asked you to please elucidate on where you are coming from with your insistence that the freelance worker who is in control and contact with the product of their labor from beginning to end is alienated according to Marx.
Resorting to ad-hominem like "fashion lefties" is not strengthening your point, it's making you look like you don't know what you're talking about.
Quote from: holist on September 26, 2012, 07:08:22 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 07:04:01 AM
Do you want to talk about alienation, and the ways in which sex work, and other types of work, can be alienating? Or do you want to try to insist that freelance translating is equivalent to sex work?
The former.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 07:04:01 AM
Because the latter is how you are coming across. Either you are having a terrible time expressing yourself, or your message itself, in my opinion, lacks merit.
Well I'll be damned. I am sorry about that. But, sorrysorrysorry, I can't help adding that Some PeopleTM are also having a terrible time understanding what I say. I don't have much of a problem with that, by the way, but it is how I see things right now.
I see, so it's not you, it's
everyone else.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 07:04:01 AM
See, the other thread was about the unique ways that sex-work erodes the psyche, but for some reason you seemed discontent with that, and wanted to talk about the ways in which other types of work are like sex work.
To be honest, I find it hard to see the move from "unique ways in which sex-work erodes the psyche" to "non-unique way in which sex-work erodes the psyche" as a massive leap and shameful derailment... but perhaps I just don't understand those terms well enough yet.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 07:04:01 AM
Now, from my perspective you had it backwards; you would have been better off saying that sex work shares some commonalities with other types of work, rather than borrowing words from sex work and applying them to other types of work.
Okay, I fully accept that. Calling myself an FLP is an old habit of mine, it is also a jokey way of expressing dissatisfaction with some of my life choices. I agree that bringing it up in that context because I was reminded of it, and then insisting on it, was foolish.
I grew up in the most Capitalistic country in the world, with the Golden Arches looming over every landscape... so clearly, I have a better founding in the principles of capitalism than some fashion-politico like Cain. Right?
Holist, you are coming across as if you are talking right the fuck out of your butthole on this. If you can cite Marx in a way that supports your apparently bizarre insistence that freelance writers are a prime example of his basic principles of worker alienation, I will back right down, admit I'm wrong, and apologize. I don't mind doing it, when I've been shown wrong.
However, I at the moment don't think you understand worker alienation as described by Marx, at all. Dismiss me as a "Western fashion lefty" if it makes you feel better, but trust me, you are making yourself look a pitiable fool, and I'm not saying that to be unkind.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 07:09:18 AM
I grew up in a country that has a mountain carved into the shape of Presidents, and that has exactly jack shit to do with anything. I asked you to please elucidate on where you are coming from with your insistence that the freelance worker who is in control and contact with the product of their labor from beginning to end is alienated according to Marx.
Resorting to ad-hominem like "fashion lefties" is not strengthening your point, it's making you look like you don't know what you're talking about.
No ad hominem intended. I hope you agree that there are many fashion-lefties in the West with no personal experience of any attempts at putting communism or marxism or indeed socialism (monopolistic state capitalism) into practice? I mentioned them.
"the freelance worker who is in control and contact with the product of their labor from beginning to end" - this could be true of the freelance novelist (some of them, anyway, probably not those that churn out pulp for a living). It is not at all a good description of the "industrial" (quotes meant to indicate figurative use - comment, again, not intended as an ad hominem, I'm simply being cagey) freelance brainwork I have in mind. I am not in contact with the product beginning to end, and I see most of it as essentially pointless. I would not do it if I could develop a better way of making a living. But the freelancing tends to get in the way of that a lot. And I'm lazy.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 07:10:36 AM
I see, so it's not you, it's everyone else.
Well no. See my previous. It is me. It is not you right now, but it has been, and also a few others. I think it takes two to tango, no?
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 07:16:55 AM
However, I at the moment don't think you understand worker alienation as described by Marx, at all.
I see my situation as rather strongly (but not fully!) parallel to the situation of one of the most alienated types of worker, the construction day-labourer.
They get picked up to work on various houses, and while they can decide not to take any particular job, they are forced to take many of them. The work is pointless (tile this half-finished wall! translate this half a document about some complaint about some motorway bridges, is what I'm doing right now, not complaining). We have no recourse to any sort of collective representation or labour organisation, competition is fierce, quality is very often not of the essence, self-exploitation is very easy to slide into.
The differences, of course, are numerous:
First and foremost: I get paid better.
Secondly: they tend to damage their bodies, I damage my brain.
Does that make it clearer?
Quote from: holist on September 26, 2012, 07:25:01 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 07:16:55 AM
However, I at the moment don't think you understand worker alienation as described by Marx, at all.
I see my situation as rather strongly (but not fully!) parallel to the situation of one of the most alienated types of worker, the construction day-labourer.
They get picked up to work on various houses, and while they can decide not to take any particular job, they are forced to take many of them. The work is pointless (tile this half-finished wall! translate this half a document about some complaint about some motorway bridges, is what I'm doing right now, not complaining). We have no recourse to any sort of collective representation or labour organisation, competition is fierce, quality is very often not of the essence, self-exploitation is very easy to slide into.
The differences, of course, are numerous:
First and foremost: I get paid better.
Secondly: they tend to damage their bodies, I damage my brain.
Does that make it clearer?
Wow, yes, in the sense that it makes it clear that you are a hopelessly self-indulgent spoiled brat to a degree I didn't foresee at all. Never mind; conversation over.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 07:28:00 AM
Wow, yes, in the sense that it makes it clear that you are a hopelessly self-indulgent spoiled brat to a degree I didn't foresee at all. Never mind; conversation over.
- at a loss -
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 07:28:00 AM
Quote from: holist on September 26, 2012, 07:25:01 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 07:16:55 AM
However, I at the moment don't think you understand worker alienation as described by Marx, at all.
I see my situation as rather strongly (but not fully!) parallel to the situation of one of the most alienated types of worker, the construction day-labourer.
They get picked up to work on various houses, and while they can decide not to take any particular job, they are forced to take many of them. The work is pointless (tile this half-finished wall! translate this half a document about some complaint about some motorway bridges, is what I'm doing right now, not complaining). We have no recourse to any sort of collective representation or labour organisation, competition is fierce, quality is very often not of the essence, self-exploitation is very easy to slide into.
The differences, of course, are numerous:
First and foremost: I get paid better.
Secondly: they tend to damage their bodies, I damage my brain.
Does that make it clearer?
Wow, yes, in the sense that it makes it clear that you are a hopelessly self-indulgent spoiled brat to a degree I didn't foresee at all. Never mind; conversation over.
It's a wonder that anyone ever gets into a line of work like writing. It's as demeaning as prostitution, wears you out as fast as construction, and it barely leaves you with any time at all to be a jackass on the Internet.
Quote from: v3x on September 26, 2012, 07:34:50 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 07:28:00 AM
Quote from: holist on September 26, 2012, 07:25:01 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 07:16:55 AM
However, I at the moment don't think you understand worker alienation as described by Marx, at all.
I see my situation as rather strongly (but not fully!) parallel to the situation of one of the most alienated types of worker, the construction day-labourer.
They get picked up to work on various houses, and while they can decide not to take any particular job, they are forced to take many of them. The work is pointless (tile this half-finished wall! translate this half a document about some complaint about some motorway bridges, is what I'm doing right now, not complaining). We have no recourse to any sort of collective representation or labour organisation, competition is fierce, quality is very often not of the essence, self-exploitation is very easy to slide into.
The differences, of course, are numerous:
First and foremost: I get paid better.
Secondly: they tend to damage their bodies, I damage my brain.
Does that make it clearer?
Wow, yes, in the sense that it makes it clear that you are a hopelessly self-indulgent spoiled brat to a degree I didn't foresee at all. Never mind; conversation over.
It's a wonder that anyone ever gets into a line of work like writing. It's as demeaning as prostitution, wears you out as fast as construction, and it barely leaves you with any time at all to be a jackass on the Internet.
:lulz:
Quote from: v3x on September 26, 2012, 07:34:50 AM
It's a wonder that anyone ever gets into a line of work like writing. It's as demeaning as prostitution, wears you out as fast as construction, and it barely leaves you with any time at all to be a jackass on the Internet.
You should try it sometime - maybe for a year? And then see what you say when after a year you see no other way to pay the bills.
Quote from: holist on September 26, 2012, 07:43:24 AM
Quote from: v3x on September 26, 2012, 07:34:50 AM
It's a wonder that anyone ever gets into a line of work like writing. It's as demeaning as prostitution, wears you out as fast as construction, and it barely leaves you with any time at all to be a jackass on the Internet.
You should try it sometime - maybe for a year? And then see what you say when after a year you see no other way to pay the bills.
No, I can't. It's too much for me. I mean, I'll suck a diseased cock to pay the bills, but you'll never get me to write some words I'm not fond of.
Quote from: holist on September 26, 2012, 07:43:24 AM
Quote from: v3x on September 26, 2012, 07:34:50 AM
It's a wonder that anyone ever gets into a line of work like writing. It's as demeaning as prostitution, wears you out as fast as construction, and it barely leaves you with any time at all to be a jackass on the Internet.
You should try it sometime - maybe for a year? And then see what you say when after a year you see no other way to pay the bills.
I like how you think you're some kind of special snowflake that no one can refute. :lulz:
I've been a freelance artist (for ten years)
As a result, I am surrounded by and deeply entrenched in a community of freelance artists and other self-employed people, including tech writers, product photographers, and people who write catalog copy.
I've also been a sex worker. So have other people I know, to various levels of entrenchment. And I haven't been a day laborer, but I've worked at the day labor center among day laborers and I've lived with a day laborer and neither are in any way realistic way comparable, in the ordinary use of the word, to being a freelance writer.
You, sir, may throw as many indignant tantrums as you like, but you are still talking 100% out of your entitled, bratty ass.
Quote from: v3x on September 26, 2012, 07:48:35 AM
Quote from: holist on September 26, 2012, 07:43:24 AM
Quote from: v3x on September 26, 2012, 07:34:50 AM
It's a wonder that anyone ever gets into a line of work like writing. It's as demeaning as prostitution, wears you out as fast as construction, and it barely leaves you with any time at all to be a jackass on the Internet.
You should try it sometime - maybe for a year? And then see what you say when after a year you see no other way to pay the bills.
No, I can't. It's too much for me. I mean, I'll suck a diseased cock to pay the bills, but you'll never get me to write some words I'm not fond of.
Can't help you there, I'm afraid. (Unless I'm already doing it?) Do you have extensive experience of freelance commercial document management as a main source of income for an extended period of time? The odd bit here and there doesn't count.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 07:54:15 AM
I've been a freelance artist (for ten years)
As a result, I am surrounded by and deeply entrenched in a community of freelance artists and other self-employed people, including tech writers, product photographers, and people who write catalog copy.
I've been a freelance translator/interpreter for 17 years. I am surrounded by people barely making enough for daily life, definitely not capable of saving up for their old age or getting private health insurance to replace the public one which has practically failed. Oh, and people constantly asking if I have any work I could through their way. And people moving from freelance translation to running an agency, thereby switching to exploiting others instead of themselves and keeping prices and quality down in the process. (That is something my poor entitled stomach does not take) Some of them take pride in their work, many of them don't at all.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 07:54:15 AM
I've also been a sex worker. So have other people I know, to various levels of entrenchment. And I haven't been a day laborer, but I've worked at the day labor center among day laborers and I've lived with a day laborer and neither are in any way realistic way comparable, in the ordinary use of the word, to being a freelance writer.
As I have made clear, I am talking about freelance commercial document management and writing. Prices here, by the way, are about a fifth of what they are about a hundred miles to the west, and while breaking into the (rather small) western market is not impossible, it is a saturated market.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 07:54:15 AM
You, sir, may throw as many indignant tantrums as you like, but you are still talking 100% out of your entitled, bratty ass.
As to who is throwing the tantrum, I think I beg to differ.
I come from a country that mastered ferret-legging, ergo I am a greater expert on ferret-leggingnomics than you.
Don't try and refute me, or ask me for links and citations, just accept my authority on this subject as a natural and enduring fact of the Universe.
I hate my job. I don't have Aids. STFU :argh!:
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 06:49:16 AM
Quote from: holist on September 26, 2012, 02:11:10 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 25, 2012, 09:17:37 PM
So, if I'm reading you right, what you are saying is that after you set aside the differences, sex work and other forms of work are pretty similar. Do I have that correct?
'Fraid not. I'm saying one factor that makes unpleasant work unpleasant, namely complete alienation (a.k.a. doing something purely and exclusively for the money) is present in spades in sex work. Also, freelancing shares some further qualities with sex-work that make both unpleasant. And the performing arts share some other further qualities with sex-work that make both unpleasant. This is over and above the further qualities of sex work beyond being totally alienated work that are unique to it, which make it particularly, terribly unpleasant, or, rather, horrible, in a majority of instances.
So what you want to talk about is not what factors in society contribute to sex-work being uniquely eroding to the psyche, but about alienation, which sex-work generally has in common with other soul-crushing jobs?
So, why insist on borrowing terms, unless your thesis isn't strong enough on its own, using the appropriate vocabulary?
Do you get PTSD from translating? Do translators get forcibly turned out from their teens? Do people post reviews of him on the internet statng that "he didn't really seem into it?" I'd suggest Holist reads some writing from ex-prostitutes, sees the reality of their experiences and hopefully gets WHY his analogy is utterly fucked.
http://theprostitutionexperience.com/
Here's a good jumping off point, from an ex-prostitute from Dublin.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 06:51:53 AM
Every bead I make
is a tiny glass piece of rape.
- An excerpt from
The PD.com Book of Horrormirth Haiku.
Quote from: Pixie on September 26, 2012, 11:56:40 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 06:49:16 AM
Quote from: holist on September 26, 2012, 02:11:10 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 25, 2012, 09:17:37 PM
So, if I'm reading you right, what you are saying is that after you set aside the differences, sex work and other forms of work are pretty similar. Do I have that correct?
'Fraid not. I'm saying one factor that makes unpleasant work unpleasant, namely complete alienation (a.k.a. doing something purely and exclusively for the money) is present in spades in sex work. Also, freelancing shares some further qualities with sex-work that make both unpleasant. And the performing arts share some other further qualities with sex-work that make both unpleasant. This is over and above the further qualities of sex work beyond being totally alienated work that are unique to it, which make it particularly, terribly unpleasant, or, rather, horrible, in a majority of instances.
So what you want to talk about is not what factors in society contribute to sex-work being uniquely eroding to the psyche, but about alienation, which sex-work generally has in common with other soul-crushing jobs?
So, why insist on borrowing terms, unless your thesis isn't strong enough on its own, using the appropriate vocabulary?
Do you get PTSD from translating? Do translators get forcibly turned out from their teens? Do people post reviews of him on the internet statng that "he didn't really seem into it?" I'd suggest Holist reads some writing from ex-prostitutes, sees the reality of their experiences and hopefully gets WHY his analogy is utterly fucked.
http://theprostitutionexperience.com/
Here's a good jumping off point, from an ex-prostitute from Dublin.
I really want to click that, but I am at work.
Living in Dublin will erode the psyche on its own, I can't imagine how bad it must be for a prostitute there.
Faust, to help you around your nannywall:
QuoteTrafficking and Prostitution are two areas that are very easy to separate; and they would be, as they are inhabited by two groups of women whose experience is characterised by two different kinds of coercion, two different kinds of force.
In one group, trafficked women, we will find the young Eastern European woman who has been tricked onto an international flight under the pretence that she is to be an au pair, only to find herself gang-raped and imprisoned in a brothel. We will find the African teenaged girl who has been kidnapped and sold within the female slave trade, sometimes with the added psychological violence of voodoo rituals to incapacitate her mentally as well as physically. In Canada we will find young women and girls of native descent trafficked to brothels in numbers far disproportionate to the females of the white population, because their lives are deemed less valuable, because the western world has decided them to be so.
I will focus for a while on the situation here in Ireland, with which of course, being an Irish woman, I am most familiar. Our national television broadcaster, RTE, aired the documentary 'Profiting from Prostitution' in the spring of this year. It focused on what was going on in Irish brothels, along with how they are organised and run. It also included interview evidence from numerous women; some trafficked, others having ended up in the brothels by what I call 'the traditional route'.
Some of the video footage was truly shocking. One Asian woman babbling, seemingly out of her mind on some substance, was not in a position to have a conversation, never mind involvement in any kind of sexual exchange. The only thing she said that made any kind of sense was "Work here, live here. No go outside"
A young African woman described in broken English her years of sexual slavery in Ireland, beginning when she was only twenty years old:
"I went to Waterford. After Waterford I went to Kilkenny, then Enniscorthy, then Navan. She (the pimp) would text me the address of the place where they would tell me to go this day. I have to do it because, I don't know, it's what I have to do because I was so scared. I don't want her to come and kill me. I had nobody to run to".
Asked how the clients treated her, she responded:
"The first man that came, I was crying to the man. The man called the woman that I refuse him sleeping with me. Anything could happen to me, so I don't have any choice. Whenever they come, I always tell them my situation, crying to some of them, but some of them, I don't cry to them. Some of them, the way they treated me, violence, calling me names, 'bitch' 'whore', you know, things like that".
"When I look at myself in the mirror in the morning I cry. I don't even eat. I was thinking 'what kind of a life is this?' Men coming in, going out, coming in, going out. So I said, this is not the kind of life I want for myself, you know? I don't even know what is going to happen to me. I don't know where to go; it was what I had to do because I had nobody to run to".
The words of that African girl haunt me for two reasons. Firstly, because I feel such compassion for her. Secondly, because I so identify with her, because the truth was, neither did I. I will include some text here from a blog I wrote this spring, which best explains the constraints of my own choices:
'Many people think of choice as I might have done, had I never worked as a prostitute. For many, choice is something perceived akin to standing in front of a deli-counter. Choose this, choose that, pick out your preferred option. The men who choose which woman they'd like to fuck as they stare at those lined up for their consumption understand choice in just this way. Their concept of choice is rooted in the privilege of a genuine alternative. Their concept of choice itself is limited.
'Choice does not always present as balanced; it does not always offer a different-but-equal alternative. When I think of my choices they were simply these: have men on and inside you, or continue to suffer homelessness and hunger. Take your pick. Make your 'choice'.
'People will never understand the concept of choice as it operates in prostitution until they understand the concept of constraint so active within it. As long as the constrained nature of this choice is ignored it will be impossible to understand the pitiful role of 'choice' for women within prostitution.
'I'm going to reveal something very personal now, and I'm going to do that simply to illustrate how warped the concept of choice was in my circumstances. I had a conversation recently with my sixty-something relative who is currently spending a few months visiting Ireland, after having lived forty years in America. She reiterated something I'd heard many years ago in our family. It was a conversation my paternal grandmother had with the psychiatrist treating my parents in the local mental hospital. My grandmother (and this was before I was ever born) had made an appointment with the doctor, very upset as she was that my manic-depressive father and his schizophrenic girlfriend had just announced their intention to marry.
'She wanted to know what could be done. How could this marriage be stopped? How could these two very unwell people be allowed to go ahead and marry? The doctor told her that mental illness could not be used as a reason to curtail a persons civil liberties and that was his view of the matter. But what, my grandmother wanted to know, would happen to any children born into that union?
'I wish I could go back in time and give my grandmother a hug for having the compassion and the foresight to think of where that situation would leave us. She was right to worry. It left us in state care, one after the other. And as a young teenager it left me homeless, hungry, and prostituted, in that order.
'The constraints of my own choices began even before I did. And if we were to shift this situation into the deli-counter analogy, there is no young girl standing there deliberating on what choice to make.
'There is only a young girl standing waiting for what's already been selected and pre-wrapped for her, and she can take it or leave it. Those are her options. That is her 'choice'.'
People will say (and rightly say) that the trafficked child or woman and the destitute child or woman constitute two different situations. Yes, they do – but what is so often ignored is that they also constitute two different situations that culminate in exactly the same place; with both sets of women lying with their legs open on a brothel's bed. In both situations, choice has been severely constrained. In both situations, the fear of one outcome leads to another. In both situations 'choices' have been made that lead to women's bodies being sexually accessed against their will, which is lived as sexual molestation, in both cases.
In the case of the trafficked woman, she can 'choose' to keep kicking and screaming and ignoring the threats against herself and her family. Nobody sees this as a choice that she might be maligned for not making. In the case of the woman who is either in destitution or in fear of destitution, she can keep kicking and screaming mentally, and ignoring the reality of the economic threat against herself and her family, but people do see this as a choice that she is maligned for not making. The bald-faced reality however is that both women are caught in two different versions of the same bind, and both women pay the same price for it. The difference is that the latter group of women pay an additional price – it is the price of a socially-assigned culpability.
I will return now to the situation in Ireland.
Irelands best known online escort agency 'Escort Ireland' was proven in the documentary I've mentioned to have advertised women trafficked internationally by one notorious criminal gang, who were busted by the Police Service of Northern Ireland in an operation codenamed 'Apsis'. The operation would have been better named 'abscess', in my opinion. This situation would be better expressed by the likening to a pustule or a boil.
The documentary tracked the movements of prostituted women nationally through the Escort Ireland website and in doing so revealed a disturbing pattern of constant motion from city to city and town to town, where these women, advertised as 'independent escorts', were shown to be anything but independent and in fact were being prostituted under the direction and control of international pimping gangs.
The women documented were very racially and ethnically diverse. They had been trafficked from South America, Eastern Europe, Africa and Asia. This left the viewer with one incontrovertible fact: the women whose bodies feed this trade are black women from Africa, brown women from South America, lighter-toned women from Asia and white women from several countries in Eastern Europe. What links all these women from various ethnicities and nations? Well, it's the fact that they're women, of course, which means that what we're seeing here is gender-based slavery. We are so used to thinking of slavery as being something that is imposed by one race upon another that we are now witnessing slavery being imposed by one gender upon another – without the capacity for recognising it for what it is – without the social competence to assign it its true name.
About six weeks after the 'Profiting from Prostitution' documentary another Irish documentary was aired. It was called 'Ireland's Vice Girls', in an unfortunate editorial decision. The content, however, was revealing and important. Again, several women were interviewed, each with a different background, some having come to prostitution through trafficking, others through what's commonly understood as 'personal choice'. What stayed with me after the documentary was the response of one woman, one of those who had supposedly made this 'choice'. Her attitude towards prostitution and the men who used her within it was starker, more marked and more undeniably fixed than anything expressed by any of the trafficked women. She said 'If I ever had to do one more punter, one of us would be leaving in a body bag'.
The woman who said these words spent ten years in prostitution, and I must ask, do these sound like the words of a woman who made some kind of benign and autonomous choice? Does a woman who'd rather kill or be killed before she'd return to prostitution sound like a woman who was ever involved in it through true autonomous choice in the first place?
People view prostitution and trafficking as distinct because they want to, because they need to, or because they've been taught to – or perhaps a combination of all of the above. But women like myself understand, though our personal lived experience, that these are not two different individualised experiences. They are not distinct and separate and wholly apart at all, and the only real difference of note is that a woman prostituted through destitution or the fear of it can never say 'I was forced'. She can never say that because the world will never accept that, and she, consequently, must deal with a far greater weight of shame than the woman who can say she was physically forced.
I think we need to really examine, as a people, what we understand about the concepts of choice and force, and I think that until we do, we will never be able to decipher that murky hinterland with which the vast majority of prostituted women are intimately familiar; that place that bridges the gap between wanting to and having to; that place where so many women must occupy before they make a decision that is not a decision, a choice that is not a choice. It is a place that is imbued with a certain heaviness; the weight of an oppressive and secret force.
It is currently largely unrecognised – but it needs to be recognised. It needs to be unmasked. It needs to be understood for what it is. Because, as I have written in my memoir 'It is a very human foolishness to insist on the presence of a knife or a gun or a fist in order to recognise the existence of force, when often the most compelling forces on this earth present intangibly, in coercive situations'.
FreeIrishWoman
I HAVE TO TRANSLATE WHATEVER PROJECTS PEOPLE WANT TO HIRE ME FOR IF I WANT TO GET PAID, WHETHER IT'S INTERESTING OR NOT. THAT IS TOTALLY COMPARABLE TO SELLING MY BODY AND ORIFICES FOR OTHER PEOPLE TO PUT THEIR ERECT PENIS IN.
ALSO IT'S WORKER ALIENATION ACCORDING TO MARX, AT LEAST THAT IS WHAT I HEARD BECAUSE I WENT TO SCHOOL WITH A PICTURE OF HIM.
ALSO I HAVE ASSBURGERS.
ALSO NO U.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 06:51:53 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 25, 2012, 10:18:20 PM
Hey, either way I'm getting my ass reamed, right?
I mean, one's only figurative, but its still equivalent, I guess.
Every bead I make
is a tiny glass piece of rape.
My ass just crawled up into my skull. THERE'S NO ROOM THERE!
Quote from: Cain on September 26, 2012, 02:36:35 PM
Faust, to help you around your nannywall:
QuoteTrafficking and Prostitution are two areas that are very easy to separate; and they would be, as they are inhabited by two groups of women whose experience is characterised by two different kinds of coercion, two different kinds of force.
In one group, trafficked women, we will find the young Eastern European woman who has been tricked onto an international flight under the pretence that she is to be an au pair, only to find herself gang-raped and imprisoned in a brothel. We will find the African teenaged girl who has been kidnapped and sold within the female slave trade, sometimes with the added psychological violence of voodoo rituals to incapacitate her mentally as well as physically. In Canada we will find young women and girls of native descent trafficked to brothels in numbers far disproportionate to the females of the white population, because their lives are deemed less valuable, because the western world has decided them to be so.
I will focus for a while on the situation here in Ireland, with which of course, being an Irish woman, I am most familiar. Our national television broadcaster, RTE, aired the documentary 'Profiting from Prostitution' in the spring of this year. It focused on what was going on in Irish brothels, along with how they are organised and run. It also included interview evidence from numerous women; some trafficked, others having ended up in the brothels by what I call 'the traditional route'.
Some of the video footage was truly shocking. One Asian woman babbling, seemingly out of her mind on some substance, was not in a position to have a conversation, never mind involvement in any kind of sexual exchange. The only thing she said that made any kind of sense was "Work here, live here. No go outside"
A young African woman described in broken English her years of sexual slavery in Ireland, beginning when she was only twenty years old:
"I went to Waterford. After Waterford I went to Kilkenny, then Enniscorthy, then Navan. She (the pimp) would text me the address of the place where they would tell me to go this day. I have to do it because, I don't know, it's what I have to do because I was so scared. I don't want her to come and kill me. I had nobody to run to".
Asked how the clients treated her, she responded:
"The first man that came, I was crying to the man. The man called the woman that I refuse him sleeping with me. Anything could happen to me, so I don't have any choice. Whenever they come, I always tell them my situation, crying to some of them, but some of them, I don't cry to them. Some of them, the way they treated me, violence, calling me names, 'bitch' 'whore', you know, things like that".
"When I look at myself in the mirror in the morning I cry. I don't even eat. I was thinking 'what kind of a life is this?' Men coming in, going out, coming in, going out. So I said, this is not the kind of life I want for myself, you know? I don't even know what is going to happen to me. I don't know where to go; it was what I had to do because I had nobody to run to".
The words of that African girl haunt me for two reasons. Firstly, because I feel such compassion for her. Secondly, because I so identify with her, because the truth was, neither did I. I will include some text here from a blog I wrote this spring, which best explains the constraints of my own choices:
'Many people think of choice as I might have done, had I never worked as a prostitute. For many, choice is something perceived akin to standing in front of a deli-counter. Choose this, choose that, pick out your preferred option. The men who choose which woman they'd like to fuck as they stare at those lined up for their consumption understand choice in just this way. Their concept of choice is rooted in the privilege of a genuine alternative. Their concept of choice itself is limited.
'Choice does not always present as balanced; it does not always offer a different-but-equal alternative. When I think of my choices they were simply these: have men on and inside you, or continue to suffer homelessness and hunger. Take your pick. Make your 'choice'.
'People will never understand the concept of choice as it operates in prostitution until they understand the concept of constraint so active within it. As long as the constrained nature of this choice is ignored it will be impossible to understand the pitiful role of 'choice' for women within prostitution.
'I'm going to reveal something very personal now, and I'm going to do that simply to illustrate how warped the concept of choice was in my circumstances. I had a conversation recently with my sixty-something relative who is currently spending a few months visiting Ireland, after having lived forty years in America. She reiterated something I'd heard many years ago in our family. It was a conversation my paternal grandmother had with the psychiatrist treating my parents in the local mental hospital. My grandmother (and this was before I was ever born) had made an appointment with the doctor, very upset as she was that my manic-depressive father and his schizophrenic girlfriend had just announced their intention to marry.
'She wanted to know what could be done. How could this marriage be stopped? How could these two very unwell people be allowed to go ahead and marry? The doctor told her that mental illness could not be used as a reason to curtail a persons civil liberties and that was his view of the matter. But what, my grandmother wanted to know, would happen to any children born into that union?
'I wish I could go back in time and give my grandmother a hug for having the compassion and the foresight to think of where that situation would leave us. She was right to worry. It left us in state care, one after the other. And as a young teenager it left me homeless, hungry, and prostituted, in that order.
'The constraints of my own choices began even before I did. And if we were to shift this situation into the deli-counter analogy, there is no young girl standing there deliberating on what choice to make.
'There is only a young girl standing waiting for what's already been selected and pre-wrapped for her, and she can take it or leave it. Those are her options. That is her 'choice'.'
People will say (and rightly say) that the trafficked child or woman and the destitute child or woman constitute two different situations. Yes, they do – but what is so often ignored is that they also constitute two different situations that culminate in exactly the same place; with both sets of women lying with their legs open on a brothel's bed. In both situations, choice has been severely constrained. In both situations, the fear of one outcome leads to another. In both situations 'choices' have been made that lead to women's bodies being sexually accessed against their will, which is lived as sexual molestation, in both cases.
In the case of the trafficked woman, she can 'choose' to keep kicking and screaming and ignoring the threats against herself and her family. Nobody sees this as a choice that she might be maligned for not making. In the case of the woman who is either in destitution or in fear of destitution, she can keep kicking and screaming mentally, and ignoring the reality of the economic threat against herself and her family, but people do see this as a choice that she is maligned for not making. The bald-faced reality however is that both women are caught in two different versions of the same bind, and both women pay the same price for it. The difference is that the latter group of women pay an additional price – it is the price of a socially-assigned culpability.
I will return now to the situation in Ireland.
Irelands best known online escort agency 'Escort Ireland' was proven in the documentary I've mentioned to have advertised women trafficked internationally by one notorious criminal gang, who were busted by the Police Service of Northern Ireland in an operation codenamed 'Apsis'. The operation would have been better named 'abscess', in my opinion. This situation would be better expressed by the likening to a pustule or a boil.
The documentary tracked the movements of prostituted women nationally through the Escort Ireland website and in doing so revealed a disturbing pattern of constant motion from city to city and town to town, where these women, advertised as 'independent escorts', were shown to be anything but independent and in fact were being prostituted under the direction and control of international pimping gangs.
The women documented were very racially and ethnically diverse. They had been trafficked from South America, Eastern Europe, Africa and Asia. This left the viewer with one incontrovertible fact: the women whose bodies feed this trade are black women from Africa, brown women from South America, lighter-toned women from Asia and white women from several countries in Eastern Europe. What links all these women from various ethnicities and nations? Well, it's the fact that they're women, of course, which means that what we're seeing here is gender-based slavery. We are so used to thinking of slavery as being something that is imposed by one race upon another that we are now witnessing slavery being imposed by one gender upon another – without the capacity for recognising it for what it is – without the social competence to assign it its true name.
About six weeks after the 'Profiting from Prostitution' documentary another Irish documentary was aired. It was called 'Ireland's Vice Girls', in an unfortunate editorial decision. The content, however, was revealing and important. Again, several women were interviewed, each with a different background, some having come to prostitution through trafficking, others through what's commonly understood as 'personal choice'. What stayed with me after the documentary was the response of one woman, one of those who had supposedly made this 'choice'. Her attitude towards prostitution and the men who used her within it was starker, more marked and more undeniably fixed than anything expressed by any of the trafficked women. She said 'If I ever had to do one more punter, one of us would be leaving in a body bag'.
The woman who said these words spent ten years in prostitution, and I must ask, do these sound like the words of a woman who made some kind of benign and autonomous choice? Does a woman who'd rather kill or be killed before she'd return to prostitution sound like a woman who was ever involved in it through true autonomous choice in the first place?
People view prostitution and trafficking as distinct because they want to, because they need to, or because they've been taught to – or perhaps a combination of all of the above. But women like myself understand, though our personal lived experience, that these are not two different individualised experiences. They are not distinct and separate and wholly apart at all, and the only real difference of note is that a woman prostituted through destitution or the fear of it can never say 'I was forced'. She can never say that because the world will never accept that, and she, consequently, must deal with a far greater weight of shame than the woman who can say she was physically forced.
I think we need to really examine, as a people, what we understand about the concepts of choice and force, and I think that until we do, we will never be able to decipher that murky hinterland with which the vast majority of prostituted women are intimately familiar; that place that bridges the gap between wanting to and having to; that place where so many women must occupy before they make a decision that is not a decision, a choice that is not a choice. It is a place that is imbued with a certain heaviness; the weight of an oppressive and secret force.
It is currently largely unrecognised – but it needs to be recognised. It needs to be unmasked. It needs to be understood for what it is. Because, as I have written in my memoir 'It is a very human foolishness to insist on the presence of a knife or a gun or a fist in order to recognise the existence of force, when often the most compelling forces on this earth present intangibly, in coercive situations'.
FreeIrishWoman
Cheers Cain.
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 26, 2012, 02:46:00 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 06:51:53 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 25, 2012, 10:18:20 PM
Hey, either way I'm getting my ass reamed, right?
I mean, one's only figurative, but its still equivalent, I guess.
Every bead I make
is a tiny glass piece of rape.
My ass just crawled up into my skull. THERE'S NO ROOM THERE!
:lulz:
Quote from: Faust on September 26, 2012, 02:47:26 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 26, 2012, 02:36:35 PM
Faust, to help you around your nannywall:
QuoteTrafficking and Prostitution are two areas that are very easy to separate; and they would be, as they are inhabited by two groups of women whose experience is characterised by two different kinds of coercion, two different kinds of force.
In one group, trafficked women, we will find the young Eastern European woman who has been tricked onto an international flight under the pretence that she is to be an au pair, only to find herself gang-raped and imprisoned in a brothel. We will find the African teenaged girl who has been kidnapped and sold within the female slave trade, sometimes with the added psychological violence of voodoo rituals to incapacitate her mentally as well as physically. In Canada we will find young women and girls of native descent trafficked to brothels in numbers far disproportionate to the females of the white population, because their lives are deemed less valuable, because the western world has decided them to be so.
I will focus for a while on the situation here in Ireland, with which of course, being an Irish woman, I am most familiar. Our national television broadcaster, RTE, aired the documentary 'Profiting from Prostitution' in the spring of this year. It focused on what was going on in Irish brothels, along with how they are organised and run. It also included interview evidence from numerous women; some trafficked, others having ended up in the brothels by what I call 'the traditional route'.
Some of the video footage was truly shocking. One Asian woman babbling, seemingly out of her mind on some substance, was not in a position to have a conversation, never mind involvement in any kind of sexual exchange. The only thing she said that made any kind of sense was "Work here, live here. No go outside"
A young African woman described in broken English her years of sexual slavery in Ireland, beginning when she was only twenty years old:
"I went to Waterford. After Waterford I went to Kilkenny, then Enniscorthy, then Navan. She (the pimp) would text me the address of the place where they would tell me to go this day. I have to do it because, I don't know, it's what I have to do because I was so scared. I don't want her to come and kill me. I had nobody to run to".
Asked how the clients treated her, she responded:
"The first man that came, I was crying to the man. The man called the woman that I refuse him sleeping with me. Anything could happen to me, so I don't have any choice. Whenever they come, I always tell them my situation, crying to some of them, but some of them, I don't cry to them. Some of them, the way they treated me, violence, calling me names, 'bitch' 'whore', you know, things like that".
"When I look at myself in the mirror in the morning I cry. I don't even eat. I was thinking 'what kind of a life is this?' Men coming in, going out, coming in, going out. So I said, this is not the kind of life I want for myself, you know? I don't even know what is going to happen to me. I don't know where to go; it was what I had to do because I had nobody to run to".
The words of that African girl haunt me for two reasons. Firstly, because I feel such compassion for her. Secondly, because I so identify with her, because the truth was, neither did I. I will include some text here from a blog I wrote this spring, which best explains the constraints of my own choices:
'Many people think of choice as I might have done, had I never worked as a prostitute. For many, choice is something perceived akin to standing in front of a deli-counter. Choose this, choose that, pick out your preferred option. The men who choose which woman they'd like to fuck as they stare at those lined up for their consumption understand choice in just this way. Their concept of choice is rooted in the privilege of a genuine alternative. Their concept of choice itself is limited.
'Choice does not always present as balanced; it does not always offer a different-but-equal alternative. When I think of my choices they were simply these: have men on and inside you, or continue to suffer homelessness and hunger. Take your pick. Make your 'choice'.
'People will never understand the concept of choice as it operates in prostitution until they understand the concept of constraint so active within it. As long as the constrained nature of this choice is ignored it will be impossible to understand the pitiful role of 'choice' for women within prostitution.
'I'm going to reveal something very personal now, and I'm going to do that simply to illustrate how warped the concept of choice was in my circumstances. I had a conversation recently with my sixty-something relative who is currently spending a few months visiting Ireland, after having lived forty years in America. She reiterated something I'd heard many years ago in our family. It was a conversation my paternal grandmother had with the psychiatrist treating my parents in the local mental hospital. My grandmother (and this was before I was ever born) had made an appointment with the doctor, very upset as she was that my manic-depressive father and his schizophrenic girlfriend had just announced their intention to marry.
'She wanted to know what could be done. How could this marriage be stopped? How could these two very unwell people be allowed to go ahead and marry? The doctor told her that mental illness could not be used as a reason to curtail a persons civil liberties and that was his view of the matter. But what, my grandmother wanted to know, would happen to any children born into that union?
'I wish I could go back in time and give my grandmother a hug for having the compassion and the foresight to think of where that situation would leave us. She was right to worry. It left us in state care, one after the other. And as a young teenager it left me homeless, hungry, and prostituted, in that order.
'The constraints of my own choices began even before I did. And if we were to shift this situation into the deli-counter analogy, there is no young girl standing there deliberating on what choice to make.
'There is only a young girl standing waiting for what's already been selected and pre-wrapped for her, and she can take it or leave it. Those are her options. That is her 'choice'.'
People will say (and rightly say) that the trafficked child or woman and the destitute child or woman constitute two different situations. Yes, they do – but what is so often ignored is that they also constitute two different situations that culminate in exactly the same place; with both sets of women lying with their legs open on a brothel's bed. In both situations, choice has been severely constrained. In both situations, the fear of one outcome leads to another. In both situations 'choices' have been made that lead to women's bodies being sexually accessed against their will, which is lived as sexual molestation, in both cases.
In the case of the trafficked woman, she can 'choose' to keep kicking and screaming and ignoring the threats against herself and her family. Nobody sees this as a choice that she might be maligned for not making. In the case of the woman who is either in destitution or in fear of destitution, she can keep kicking and screaming mentally, and ignoring the reality of the economic threat against herself and her family, but people do see this as a choice that she is maligned for not making. The bald-faced reality however is that both women are caught in two different versions of the same bind, and both women pay the same price for it. The difference is that the latter group of women pay an additional price – it is the price of a socially-assigned culpability.
I will return now to the situation in Ireland.
Irelands best known online escort agency 'Escort Ireland' was proven in the documentary I've mentioned to have advertised women trafficked internationally by one notorious criminal gang, who were busted by the Police Service of Northern Ireland in an operation codenamed 'Apsis'. The operation would have been better named 'abscess', in my opinion. This situation would be better expressed by the likening to a pustule or a boil.
The documentary tracked the movements of prostituted women nationally through the Escort Ireland website and in doing so revealed a disturbing pattern of constant motion from city to city and town to town, where these women, advertised as 'independent escorts', were shown to be anything but independent and in fact were being prostituted under the direction and control of international pimping gangs.
The women documented were very racially and ethnically diverse. They had been trafficked from South America, Eastern Europe, Africa and Asia. This left the viewer with one incontrovertible fact: the women whose bodies feed this trade are black women from Africa, brown women from South America, lighter-toned women from Asia and white women from several countries in Eastern Europe. What links all these women from various ethnicities and nations? Well, it's the fact that they're women, of course, which means that what we're seeing here is gender-based slavery. We are so used to thinking of slavery as being something that is imposed by one race upon another that we are now witnessing slavery being imposed by one gender upon another – without the capacity for recognising it for what it is – without the social competence to assign it its true name.
About six weeks after the 'Profiting from Prostitution' documentary another Irish documentary was aired. It was called 'Ireland's Vice Girls', in an unfortunate editorial decision. The content, however, was revealing and important. Again, several women were interviewed, each with a different background, some having come to prostitution through trafficking, others through what's commonly understood as 'personal choice'. What stayed with me after the documentary was the response of one woman, one of those who had supposedly made this 'choice'. Her attitude towards prostitution and the men who used her within it was starker, more marked and more undeniably fixed than anything expressed by any of the trafficked women. She said 'If I ever had to do one more punter, one of us would be leaving in a body bag'.
The woman who said these words spent ten years in prostitution, and I must ask, do these sound like the words of a woman who made some kind of benign and autonomous choice? Does a woman who'd rather kill or be killed before she'd return to prostitution sound like a woman who was ever involved in it through true autonomous choice in the first place?
People view prostitution and trafficking as distinct because they want to, because they need to, or because they've been taught to – or perhaps a combination of all of the above. But women like myself understand, though our personal lived experience, that these are not two different individualised experiences. They are not distinct and separate and wholly apart at all, and the only real difference of note is that a woman prostituted through destitution or the fear of it can never say 'I was forced'. She can never say that because the world will never accept that, and she, consequently, must deal with a far greater weight of shame than the woman who can say she was physically forced.
I think we need to really examine, as a people, what we understand about the concepts of choice and force, and I think that until we do, we will never be able to decipher that murky hinterland with which the vast majority of prostituted women are intimately familiar; that place that bridges the gap between wanting to and having to; that place where so many women must occupy before they make a decision that is not a decision, a choice that is not a choice. It is a place that is imbued with a certain heaviness; the weight of an oppressive and secret force.
It is currently largely unrecognised – but it needs to be recognised. It needs to be unmasked. It needs to be understood for what it is. Because, as I have written in my memoir 'It is a very human foolishness to insist on the presence of a knife or a gun or a fist in order to recognise the existence of force, when often the most compelling forces on this earth present intangibly, in coercive situations'.
FreeIrishWoman
Cheers Cain.
THREAD ORVER.
:thanks:
That whole blog is both informative and terrifying.
Luckily for FreeIrishWoman she has a book deal now. :D
Quote from: holist on September 26, 2012, 03:47:06 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 26, 2012, 02:50:14 PM
THREAD ORVER.
no, not yet
I'm pretty sure that translates to:
"The content part of this thread, for whatever it's worth, is now over. From this point forward will be screeching, stick-poking, shit-flinging, and butthurt."
Quote from: holist on September 25, 2012, 05:36:58 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 25, 2012, 11:17:23 AM
Yes, and the fact that people are choosing to explore, in-depth, whether there aren't relevant differences between translation services and porn (there are, obviously) rather than laying out a clear and concise argument about what qualities make porn exploitative to the point that there is moral obligation on the part of the consumer/viewer to not support it, speaks volumes.
That's like a Snide CommentTM, right? But actually, the compare-and-contrast job I am trying to do here is, in my irritatingly divergent and roundabout manner, an attempt at figuring out what gives the sex industry it's (you have to admit, I think, do you?) very particular flavour of nasty. I think some of the ingredients are sex-related, but others are not, and are shared by some (but not all) other types of work.
We were working at cross-purposes. My purpose was to get people to identify their line of exploitation. Some people were saying that all porn is exploitative. Some were saying some porn was ok, but without drawing clear lines. Some were saying that their uncertainty about the exploitation was part of the problem. I also think that some people's baggage about sex was a factor, which is this nebulous background thing that is there, just as there is this intuition that the porn industry is nasty.
And then, there is also the question of once we define an unacceptable level of exploitation and what level of certainty we have about it, what is the moral obligation of the consumer/viewer of porn? If a woman makes $500 doing a 2 hour masturbation set? Is that bad? How about if she is Eastern European? Doing it to feed her family? What if it is a cam show - for her website? On some other website? On and on and on. How much information is necessary?
But no one wanted to go this route, into specifics, because that's the reality, and despite LMNO's comments to the contrary below, this discussion, thus far, has been plagued by sweeping generalities and mistaking the map for the territory. And, it's also clear why. Ultimately, it's personal where you draw these lines, and it is hard to really lay down any kind of criteria unless you are just totally against it. It's the whole problem with porn in general, you know it when you see it. And while the totally against it argument is a clean argument, it's one that denies a lot of the realities of why porn exists in the first place. It's like abstinence education. It doesn't work.
I thought your efforts were a bit off-topic of the OP, and while there was general agreement this was the case, people focused on your arguments. I'm starting to think some of the reason for that might have something to do with my selecting a variant of asshole as my forum handle.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 25, 2012, 05:48:18 PM
Holist, that reads as a very well-thought out philosophical argument.
However, it really is miles away from the reality of the situation. You may want to read up on The Barstool Experiment (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,10125.0.html) for now. This board tends to deal with things in a pragmatic, rather than idealistic, way. If what you're proposing doesn't reflect the reality, all the reality of a situation, then you are mistaking the map for the territory.
Not to nitpick, but I doubt we have any real understanding of reality of the sex work situation. We all may have a vague feeling of badwrong, but it is also hard to figure out whether that's the same feeling that prevented me from seriously considering offering up fucking my ass for dollars before.
And with that, I've gone through about half this thread and the last few comments before this post that just got added, and I guess I'm just going to say I'm not interested in reading any further.
No real understanding of the reality of sex work?
There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.
I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.
I think I see what AA is talking about, and there is some truth to it. Yes, a solo masturbation set on a live feed doesn't feel "as bad" as an anal gangbang "non-con" scene. So there is a line, but it's hard to define.
Quote from: Pixie on September 26, 2012, 04:00:52 PM
No real understanding of the reality of sex work?
There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.
I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.
How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 04:14:32 PM
Quote from: Pixie on September 26, 2012, 04:00:52 PM
No real understanding of the reality of sex work?
There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.
I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.
How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?
Having had contact with the local porn industry, I can say with 169% certainty that is is nothing short of dehumanizing.
Can't speak about anywhere else, but I suspect it's the same.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 26, 2012, 03:49:55 PM
Quote from: holist on September 26, 2012, 03:47:06 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 26, 2012, 02:50:14 PM
THREAD ORVER.
no, not yet
I'm pretty sure that translates to:
"The content part of this thread, for whatever it's worth, is now over. From this point forward will be screeching, stick-poking, shit-flinging, and butthurt."
LMNO, you speak excellent Roger.
Fact: No new arguments have been brought up. Thread is not about wage slavery, it's about pron/prostitute apologism.
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 26, 2012, 04:26:13 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 04:14:32 PM
Quote from: Pixie on September 26, 2012, 04:00:52 PM
No real understanding of the reality of sex work?
There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.
I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.
How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?
Having had contact with the local porn industry, I can say with 169% certainty that is is nothing short of dehumanizing.
Can't speak about anywhere else, but I suspect it's the same.
Roger, I think the Ayatollah is chasing unicorns, personally.
Quote from: Pixie on September 26, 2012, 04:28:24 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 26, 2012, 04:26:13 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 04:14:32 PM
Quote from: Pixie on September 26, 2012, 04:00:52 PM
No real understanding of the reality of sex work?
There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.
I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.
How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?
Having had contact with the local porn industry, I can say with 169% certainty that is is nothing short of dehumanizing.
Can't speak about anywhere else, but I suspect it's the same.
Roger, I think the Ayatollah is chasing unicorns, personally.
Dunno. All I can say is what I DO know, which is to say that the films made in the Tucson area are just what you'd expect, and the horrors behind the scenes are also just what you'd expect.
What I DON'T know is whether this is a Tucson thing or a porn thing.
And there are no happy prostitutes. Just saying.
Quote from: Pixie on September 26, 2012, 03:43:31 PM
Luckily for FreeIrishWoman she has a book deal now. :D
THE POOR WOMAN'S ESCAPED ONE FORM OF PROSTITUTION ONLY TO LAND IN ANOTHER!!! :horrormirth:
AA, something I think you might just be missing here is the odd focus on reality here on PDCOM. Unlike discussions on this kind if topic in most places, the focus here seems to me first and foremost – especially in this discussion – to lie in understanding reality. Not in making normative statements (i.e. "x is badwrong") or imaginary policy concepts (i.e. "x should be banned") and when people do make normative statements, the culture here seems to, perhaps unusually, not add an implication of policy, public or otherwise. In other words, the discussion of porn, to me and to many of the others, I suspect, is not about what should be done, but about how things are. Not about drawing sharp lines that can be used in some imaginary world in which we dictate policy, not even sharp lines for personal policy – since the conclusion on personal policy is typically "think for yourself, schmuck." I think this community sees itself more as a way to thoroughly inform oneself, and to hash out ideas, but emphatically not a way to hash out guidelines for life, personal or public.
I see that you understand this to a degree, I just feel your line of argumentation assumes an implication that is not there. It's a valid pursuit to try to figure out where one should draw the line, and you raise interesting thoughts and questions. I just think you're missing something fundamental about how this community approaches this kind of discussion, or at least the discussion this thread branched off from. When another thread is started with a clear mission statement, that'll be a different situation, and might possibly generate less animosity, at least in a perfect world where this thread never happened so people aren't predisposed to that animosity.
I'm very open to the possibility that I'm speaking out of my anus here, BTW.
VERB,
Amateur Interweb anthropologist
Quote from: VERBL on September 26, 2012, 05:19:14 PM
Quote from: Pixie on September 26, 2012, 03:43:31 PM
Luckily for FreeIrishWoman she has a book deal now. :D
THE POOR WOMAN'S ESCAPED ONE FORM OF PROSTITUTION ONLY TO LAND IN ANOTHER!!! :horrormirth:
:spittake:
I agree, for the most part.
I think porn and prostitution is degrading and wrong, but I don't they should be illegal for the same reason I don't think pot smoking should be illegal...That is to say, I don't get to tell you what to do.
(Note that the above is not an invitation to turn this into drug thread #3459. It was just a comparison. So shut up.)
For the benefit of AA, on going to recount a conversation I had with my bestie Torch, who has had to return to stripping. I have to get my comp out for this, gimmie a minute.
And as far as drawing a moral line goes, that's like asking "at what point does stomping on kittens become immoral?"
If you hire a prostitute, you are immoral. Not because of the sex, but because you have treated a human being like a rental car.
Porn is a little less clear, for obvious reasons. Someone puts up a video of themselves getting off, I can't see any problem with that. Renting a copy of "Double Anal Quakers" is probably immoral, because there comes a certain point where you CAN'T produce the movie without SOMEONE being abused in one manner or another.
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 26, 2012, 05:39:48 PM
For the benefit of AA, on going to recount a conversation I had with my bestie Torch, who has had to return to stripping. I have to get my comp out for this, gimmie a minute.
Stripping is just
dismal.
First, a little back story on Torchie.
Torch has done porn before. These are the things I remember what she told me:
-She only did lesbian porn, because if she did straight porn it would fuck her brain up, what with the attachment chemicals and whatnot.
-She will never ever return to porn, ever. She'd hook first.
I also know she knows what it's like to hook, and she told me she'd rather hook than have her daughter starve. She never told me what it was like about hooking, but here's what she had to say about stripping, the least of all person commoditification evils:
"I try not to let it affect me, but it does. It affects my personal relationships. When I'm stripping for a living, my first instinct is to get you to like me, because you liking me means you'll give me more stuff. So I end up having ulterior motives for making friends and getting to know people. And it sucks, and I know it's a shitty thing to be thinking, but I can't help it."
Quote from: Pixie on September 26, 2012, 04:28:24 PM
Quote from: Fidel Castro on September 26, 2012, 04:26:13 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 04:14:32 PM
Quote from: Pixie on September 26, 2012, 04:00:52 PM
No real understanding of the reality of sex work?
There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.
I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.
How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?
Having had contact with the local porn industry, I can say with 169% certainty that is is nothing short of dehumanizing.
Can't speak about anywhere else, but I suspect it's the same.
Roger, I think the Ayatollah is chasing unicorns, personally.
My argument is simple.
1. There is porn that is okay by practically anyone's definition, e.g., a self-filmed masturbation video uploaded by the person themselves. (This basically destroys the bullshit "unicorn" argument.)
2. If there is porn that is okay, we need a way to differentiate it from porn that is not okay, e.g., we might say that any "industry produced" porn is not okay because of the typical working conditions in "industry produced" porn. If you go with that, it would probably useful to layout some conception of what a non-exploitative porn industry might look like and how we might get there, and during the exercise, you might come to the conclusion that it isn't possible. However, then you'd have to explain 1. Presumably the industry could change to a self-publishing format that would enable okay porn by some definition. The only real failure in doing this is limited imaginations and we're lazy. Easier just to say, porn is bad.
C. We need a way to differentiate porn that is okay from porn that is not okay.
The responses basically reduce to some version of the following:
1. You're chasing unicorns (or porn is always bad). I specifically went to the trouble to lay out an acceptable type. If you want to go the unicorns route, you have to explain why 1. is exploitative, which no one wants to do because that's a stupid argument.
2. The porn industry is dirty and nasty. I agree. So, is it inherently so? You argue yes. But, what if people choose it because it is their best option? Enter the soft paternalism charge no one wants to answer.
Can it be regulated and cleaned up? No one wants to do that either because then you'd have to define what the problems are and how they might be solved. And you're not interested in that project, you just want to say porn is inherently bad, which you can do, but you need to do the work first of laying out something a little better than anecdotal evidence based on your perception of a preponderance of blog posts and the problem posed by premise 1.
One avenue is saying that the social effects of porn are ultimately negative, and it's a social problem. People going this route would have to address: a) the fundamental problem of providing evidence for this claim, and 2) even if we accept this is true, why does society's interest trump the individual's? Easier just to say I don't know much about social theory (which is true, I don't, but I do know logic) and ignore the soft paternalism here too. And ultimately, there still is the fact of premise 1. There are parts of "porn" that you aren't including in your critique (1. isn't dirty or nasty), because that'd make it messy.
Can't think of any other real objections that have been raised, maybe I most those postings too. But, my sense of the discussion here is there is a whole lot of group think going on. You have a legitimate issue about we need to think harder about the ethical and social implications of porn, and then you go fuck it up by painting with an overly broad brush and sweeping generalities.
Hey kids, the answer to teenage pregnancies, STDs and sexuality in general is just to have no sex! Well, thank you moms and dads for your very helpful insight into this matter. You're offering up the abstinence education argument, and it sucks just as much here.
Also, with regard to people who strip to pay their way through college, I really think that's an outlier to the point of being a myth. Has anyone ever met these strippers-turned-lawyers?
I know for a fact that the ones Torch works with are really, honestly dumb. Just dumb.
Quote from: holist on September 26, 2012, 07:18:15 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 07:09:18 AM
I grew up in a country that has a mountain carved into the shape of Presidents, and that has exactly jack shit to do with anything. I asked you to please elucidate on where you are coming from with your insistence that the freelance worker who is in control and contact with the product of their labor from beginning to end is alienated according to Marx.
Resorting to ad-hominem like "fashion lefties" is not strengthening your point, it's making you look like you don't know what you're talking about.
No ad hominem intended. I hope you agree that there are many fashion-lefties in the West with no personal experience of any attempts at putting communism or marxism or indeed socialism (monopolistic state capitalism) into practice? I mentioned them.
"the freelance worker who is in control and contact with the product of their labor from beginning to end" - this could be true of the freelance novelist (some of them, anyway, probably not those that churn out pulp for a living). It is not at all a good description of the "industrial" (quotes meant to indicate figurative use - comment, again, not intended as an ad hominem, I'm simply being cagey) freelance brainwork I have in mind. I am not in contact with the product beginning to end, and I see most of it as essentially pointless. I would not do it if I could develop a better way of making a living. But the freelancing tends to get in the way of that a lot. And I'm lazy.
So because not every job is THE MOST INTERESTING THING EVER and it's hard to come by business sometimes, you're life is just like that of a prostitute. Really? Do you realize how much of a spoiled brat that makes you sound like? Reminds me of a friend that I got a job with/for me, filing papers. She was genuinely disappointed that the job was not as interesting as she had imagined it. Well no shit, sherlock! :lulz: Filing probably isn't going to be...whatever the hell she thought it would be (I find it relaxing).
Most cases my boss deals with aren't terribly exciting, some can be quite depressing. On top of that sometimes there are deadlines and I get pretty stressed. Sometimes I have to deal with assholes or mentally unstable (or both) people rambling, ranting or screaming at me. Sometimes certain things do wear on me. But yet, I am not abused or degraded (someone may yell at me, but I certainly don't have to go anywhere near their disgusting, horrible bodies and can call the police should things get out of had - haven't had to in the 10 years I've been doing this, and it's highly unlikely). I haven't picked up some terrible drug addiction that traps me in this work. And I am perfectly safe to seek out other career options without fear of being hurt or killed, even if I might have to tighten the budget for a while.
Not to mention, I deal and have dealt with several court reporters/stenographers/interpreters and yes, even some translators. And well, rather than continuing on, let's just say, I wouldn't compare their situations as anything close to a sex worker's. Business sometimes slow/uninteresting? Yes, but that's where any comparison ends, FAR from any real similarity. Did you even read Cain's post on narrowness?
17 years eh? Sounds like plenty of time to evaluate your life and make some long-term goals about a career change. But that would require actual effort right? Or is the big translator pimp going to come and kill you if you decide to quit? What's soul crushing, is pathetic lazy fucks like you that don't want to do any actual work to earn a living and blame everyone else around them for their lack of enjoyment.
DAYUM. :lulz:
Note to self: Don't act like a holist when trippinprincesz is around.
Quote from: VERBL on September 26, 2012, 05:34:31 PM
AA, something I think you might just be missing here is the odd focus on reality here on PDCOM. Unlike discussions on this kind if topic in most places, the focus here seems to me first and foremost – especially in this discussion – to lie in understanding reality. Not in making normative statements (i.e. "x is badwrong") or imaginary policy concepts (i.e. "x should be banned") and when people do make normative statements, the culture here seems to, perhaps unusually, not add an implication of policy, public or otherwise. In other words, the discussion of porn, to me and to many of the others, I suspect, is not about what should be done, but about how things are. Not about drawing sharp lines that can be used in some imaginary world in which we dictate policy, not even sharp lines for personal policy – since the conclusion on personal policy is typically "think for yourself, schmuck." I think this community sees itself more as a way to thoroughly inform oneself, and to hash out ideas, but emphatically not a way to hash out guidelines for life, personal or public.
I see that you understand this to a degree, I just feel your line of argumentation assumes an implication that is not there. It's a valid pursuit to try to figure out where one should draw the line, and you raise interesting thoughts and questions. I just think you're missing something fundamental about how this community approaches this kind of discussion, or at least the discussion this thread branched off from. When another thread is started with a clear mission statement, that'll be a different situation, and might possibly generate less animosity, at least in a perfect world where this thread never happened so people aren't predisposed to that animosity.
I'm very open to the possibility that I'm speaking out of my anus here, BTW.
VERB,
Amateur Interweb anthropologist
I hear you. My question is whose and what reality? Let's say we gloss over all the problems I've been hammering away at here, and let's suppose for a moment that we accept something like this argument.
1. Porn is inherently exploitative and dehumanizing.
2. If something in inherently exploitative and dehumanizing, then we should not support/do it.
C. We should not support/do porn.
Fine. Now, what happens to whatever needs/desires that were being met by porn? Maybe you guys should start a fun thread of all the ways people could get off without it? Should people sit on top of their washing machines? Read romance novels? Maybe find real people (because no one consuming porn thought of that)? Personally, I'm going to check in with the Cistercians, because nothing is hotter than a man in uniform.
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 06:05:56 PM
Enter the soft paternalism charge no one wants to answer.
I'll answer that.
I have already said I have no wish to ban porn. I'm pretty sure that most people here don't, either. I can render a judgment, my own opinion, all day long without becoming paternal.
Fact: It's bad for people.
Fact: So is smoking.
Fact: Barring or shutting down discussion of a subject because we don't want to look "paternal" is no different than shutting down a conversation because one side has a perceived privilege from which they are speaking. Talking about it doesn't suddenly make everyone a limosine liberal.
The fuck is "soft paternalism" supposed to mean, anyway?
And I guess a firsthand (well, secondhand now, I guess) story that falsifies AA's what-if sccenario deserves to get ignored, because it doesn't line up with his argument.
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 06:18:55 PM
1. Porn is inherently exploitative and dehumanizing.
2. If something in inherently exploitative and dehumanizing, then we should not support/do it.
C. We should not support/do porn.
I don't agree with #1. It's not inherent. It IS, however, endemic.
QuoteFine. Now, what happens to whatever needs/desires that were being met by porn?
Pretty sure porn's not going away.
In addition, there's the "Little Angels Hentai" argument. It was a board we trolled out of existence about 6 years ago or so. These freaks spent all day drawing pictures of little girls being abused, etc (it turns out that drawn images of kiddie porn aren't illegal, just photographs). When we started burning their board down, they screeched shit like "This is what gets us through the day! MAYBE THIS IS KEEPING US FROM BECOMING REAL PEDOPHILES!"
Two problems with that:
1. They were already real pedophiles.
2. You don't get rid of a fixation by indulging it. There is not some finite quantity of evil in the human soul...It is a learned behavior, and the more you indulge it, the more you want it, and the more intense it has to be to satisfy you. This goes for degrading porn, too. You don't feel less of a need to use a woman as a sex toilet by watching it, you become even more desensitized to the idea that women are human beings (or men, whichever).
Fact is, the question ought to be "WHY is there a need for porn to get certain people off?".
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 26, 2012, 06:22:20 PM
The fuck is "soft paternalism" supposed to mean, anyway?
White Man's Burden.
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 26, 2012, 06:30:26 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 06:27:59 PM
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 26, 2012, 06:22:20 PM
The fuck is "soft paternalism" supposed to mean, anyway?
White Man's Burden.
Ah.
Sort of a "WE know what's best for these little people in the porn industry", etc etc.
Only really comes into play if you're trying to ban or restrict it. Same with the abstinence only comment.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 06:31:49 PM
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 26, 2012, 06:30:26 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 06:27:59 PM
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 26, 2012, 06:22:20 PM
The fuck is "soft paternalism" supposed to mean, anyway?
White Man's Burden.
Ah.
Sort of a "WE know what's best for these little people in the porn industry", etc etc.
Only really comes into play if you're trying to ban or restrict it. Same with the abstinence only comment.
Yeah, I didn't really understand that. I also don't get why he thinks we're all repressed and that's why PORN IS BAD, MMKAY?
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 26, 2012, 06:14:38 PM
DAYUM. :lulz:
Note to self: Don't act like a holist when trippinprincesz is around.
You wouldn't think it, but I actually REALLY enjoy being nice to people and making them happy and for the most part I tend to be pretty live and let live. I just can't stand laziness (perpetual laziness, not just "imma take it easy today before I explode") and selfishness, especially when it's accompanied with complaints (and it usually is) about "why this" and "poor me" and "everybody else...." when the problems could very easily solved by actually doing anything or thinking outside of their own bubble for one second. But no, it's just excuses about how they're a special little snowflake whose problems are different than anyone elses and they're entitled to this because of that.
Yea, I guess it does bother me, lol. But it seems like a lot of the world's problems can be boiled down to "me first"
:lulz: I wasn't criticizing you, and I actually have gotten that vibee of "live and let live" from you before now, which is why your smackdown of holist was doubly awesome.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 06:51:53 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 25, 2012, 10:18:20 PM
Hey, either way I'm getting my ass reamed, right?
I mean, one's only figurative, but its still equivalent, I guess.
Every bead I make
is a tiny glass piece of rape.
And one of them was even ANGRY. :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 26, 2012, 06:36:56 PM
:lulz: I wasn't criticizing you, and I actually have gotten that vibee of "live and let live" from you before now, which is why your smackdown of holist was doubly awesome.
:lol: I didn't really think you were, but occassionally I feel the need to clarify that I don't sit around waiting for the perfect opportunity to say mean things to people. It's just that willfully stupid/selfish/hurtful statements tend to set off my rage gland and then I can't help myself because CAN'T SEE HOW AWFUL HE SOUNDS. But plenty here have elaborated on that point before and after me, so it's not like my post will make any difference. But it had to be said.
The Good Reverend Roger's Official Holy Man™ Statement on Porn:
I was listening to a war correspondent speak at the U of A, a few years back. He said that humans like to destroy, especially to destroy other humans. That it gives them a feeling of godlike power to revoke another person's charter. That one of humans' favorite activities is to dehumanize and objectify others, literally objectify them if possible by changing their status from living human individual to inert object over which they have total power and superiority. And I'm going "Uh huh, sad but true," and then he says "Just like pornography." And I said, "Well dammit that too is unfortunately correct. If I am opposed to one of those things I sure can't justifiably cater to my whims in enjoying the other."
Now I am not interested in discussing or debating any of these points, all I know is that that one sentence was exactly what I needed to hear at that time to break my opinion of porn (which has never had a big attraction for me in the first place). And I don't really care about a lot of dumbass opinions you jerks are likely to have about it either. I'm just telling you a thing that happened, so shut up.
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 26, 2012, 06:08:04 PM
Also, with regard to people who strip to pay their way through college, I really think that's an outlier to the point of being a myth. Has anyone ever met these strippers-turned-lawyers?
I know for a fact that the ones Torch works with are really, honestly dumb. Just dumb.
Truth. They tend to stay fucked up a lot, too.
So, this "Wage Slavery" thread wasn't really about wage slavery, it was still just about porn and prostitution. I shouldn't have bothered splitting the thread in the first place, because it turns out that Holist didn't have a point, he had a need to argue for its own sake.
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 26, 2012, 06:02:10 PM
First, a little back story on Torchie.
Torch has done porn before. These are the things I remember what she told me:
-She only did lesbian porn, because if she did straight porn it would fuck her brain up, what with the attachment chemicals and whatnot.
-She will never ever return to porn, ever. She'd hook first.
I also know she knows what it's like to hook, and she told me she'd rather hook than have her daughter starve. She never told me what it was like about hooking, but here's what she had to say about stripping, the least of all person commoditification evils:
"I try not to let it affect me, but it does. It affects my personal relationships. When I'm stripping for a living, my first instinct is to get you to like me, because you liking me means you'll give me more stuff. So I end up having ulterior motives for making friends and getting to know people. And it sucks, and I know it's a shitty thing to be thinking, but I can't help it."
That really is just awful - well, I can't even imagine, really. :sad: Even though stripping is generally considered a "less bad" area of the sex industry, her statements certainly give an overview of how demeaning it can all be (and without going into details). That last paragraph, especially. In a sense it's good (not quite, but something like that) that she is aware of the change in her, but just really sad that that has to be reality for her for the present time. I hope that she is able to get back on her feet soon.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 07:06:19 PM
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 26, 2012, 06:02:10 PM
First, a little back story on Torchie.
Torch has done porn before. These are the things I remember what she told me:
-She only did lesbian porn, because if she did straight porn it would fuck her brain up, what with the attachment chemicals and whatnot.
-She will never ever return to porn, ever. She'd hook first.
I also know she knows what it's like to hook, and she told me she'd rather hook than have her daughter starve. She never told me what it was like about hooking, but here's what she had to say about stripping, the least of all person commoditification evils:
"I try not to let it affect me, but it does. It affects my personal relationships. When I'm stripping for a living, my first instinct is to get you to like me, because you liking me means you'll give me more stuff. So I end up having ulterior motives for making friends and getting to know people. And it sucks, and I know it's a shitty thing to be thinking, but I can't help it."
That really is just awful - well, I can't even imagine, really. :sad: Even though stripping is generally considered a "less bad" area of the sex industry, her statements certainly give an overview of how demeaning it can all be (and without going into details). That last paragraph, especially. In a sense it's good (not quite, but something like that) that she is aware of the change in her, but just really sad that that has to be reality for her for the present time. I hope that she is able to get back on her feet soon.
I don't see it as less bad.
I see it as Prostitution is worse than stripping is worse than porn.
Because at least porn actresses aren't being pawed at by random creepers in a dreary dimly-lit room with worn out carpeting and horrible stains on the undersides of the tables. They are at least isolated from their audience.
I'm a bit more nuanced, as I actually have met college strippers (although it was for spending money, not tuition, and it was usually amateur nights). And I do know personally at least two women who voluntarily entered and are in the porn biz, but didn't have to (the caveat is that it's niche market porn). So, there are outliers. Of course there are outliers.
But this question isn't binary. A lot of lip service has been paid to, "a lot of porn is degrading, but..." and then acting as if the outliers throw the whole thing into doubt. When, in truth, most porn is degrading, and therefore it is entirely reasonable to say and behave as if that is the default. To act as if the outliers somehow redeem the entire concept of porn is disingenuous.
And for the record, showing people fucking, be it cartoons, film, books, or live, is not inherently bad. If I was going to draw the line anywhere, it would be somewhere around the time when the need for cash surpasses the need for sex/exhibitionism/desire.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 06:27:31 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 06:18:55 PM
1. Porn is inherently exploitative and dehumanizing.
2. If something in inherently exploitative and dehumanizing, then we should not support/do it.
C. We should not support/do porn.
I don't agree with #1. It's not inherent. It IS, however, endemic.
QuoteFine. Now, what happens to whatever needs/desires that were being met by porn?
Pretty sure porn's not going away.
In addition, there's the "Little Angels Hentai" argument. It was a board we trolled out of existence about 6 years ago or so. These freaks spent all day drawing pictures of little girls being abused, etc (it turns out that drawn images of kiddie porn aren't illegal, just photographs). When we started burning their board down, they screeched shit like "This is what gets us through the day! MAYBE THIS IS KEEPING US FROM BECOMING REAL PEDOPHILES!"
Two problems with that:
1. They were already real pedophiles.
2. You don't get rid of a fixation by indulging it. There is not some finite quantity of evil in the human soul...It is a learned behavior, and the more you indulge it, the more you want it, and the more intense it has to be to satisfy you. This goes for degrading porn, too. You don't feel less of a need to use a woman as a sex toilet by watching it, you become even more desensitized to the idea that women are human beings (or men, whichever).
Fact is, the question ought to be "WHY is there a need for porn to get certain people off?".
It's weird with art. People like R. Crumb can draw the sickest shit and it's just funny. There's wit behind it, it's like commentary on something that's ALREADY fucked up.
Then there's other shit that just creeps me out. I was looking for fresh attention whore memes last night and I found this NSFW (http://www.newgrounds.com/art/view/mavruda/attention-whore-short-comic). It's pretty straight-up misogyny.
So yeah. Those guys were real pedos. I don't have any answers on why some people need porn to get off, though. I always just assumed they got habituated to it, but that could be totally wrong.
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 03:54:20 PM
Not to nitpick, but I doubt we have any real understanding of reality of the sex work situation.
Hey, who are you speaking for, friend? Certainly not me.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 26, 2012, 07:12:04 PM
I'm a bit more nuanced, as I actually have met college strippers (although it was for spending money, not tuition, and it was usually amateur nights). And I do know personally at least two women who voluntarily entered and are in the porn biz, but didn't have to (the caveat is that it's niche market porn). So, there are outliers. Of course there are outliers.
But this question isn't binary. A lot of lip service has been paid to, "a lot of porn is degrading, but..." and then acting as if the outliers throw the whole thing into doubt. When, in truth, most porn is degrading, and therefore it is entirely reasonable to say and behave as if that is the default. To act as if the outliers somehow redeem the entire concept of porn is disingenuous.
And for the record, showing people fucking, be it cartoons, film, books, or live, is not inherently bad. If I was going to draw the line anywhere, it would be somewhere around the time when the need for cash surpasses the need for sex/exhibitionism/desire.
I knew one college stripper, only did parties, had two goons that showed up to keep the frat boys in line. She seemed to enjoy it. However, I also knew her from a history study group, and she was a bundle of bad wiring, so maybe not the best counter-example.
The rest of your post I agree with, 100%.
Also, there's been talk in this thread or the other one about how "in an ideal world" porn and/or prostitution wouldn't be degrading. Problem is, we live in THIS world.
Another thing I've been thinking about is this: There is no need to separate porn and prostitution. After all, what is prostitution? When a person performs sexual acts for money. What is pornography (as an industry)? The same thing.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 06:52:25 PM
The Good Reverend Roger's Official Holy Man™ Statement on Porn:
I was listening to a war correspondent speak at the U of A, a few years back. He said that humans like to destroy, especially to destroy other humans. That it gives them a feeling of godlike power to revoke another person's charter. That one of humans' favorite activities is to dehumanize and objectify others, literally objectify them if possible by changing their status from living human individual to inert object over which they have total power and superiority. And I'm going "Uh huh, sad but true," and then he says "Just like pornography." And I said, "Well dammit that too is unfortunately correct. If I am opposed to one of those things I sure can't justifiably cater to my whims in enjoying the other."
Please use this for your next Porn Princess thread.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on September 26, 2012, 07:12:04 PM
I'm a bit more nuanced, as I actually have met college strippers (although it was for spending money, not tuition, and it was usually amateur nights). And I do know personally at least two women who voluntarily entered and are in the porn biz, but didn't have to (the caveat is that it's niche market porn). So, there are outliers. Of course there are outliers.
But this question isn't binary. A lot of lip service has been paid to, "a lot of porn is degrading, but..." and then acting as if the outliers throw the whole thing into doubt. When, in truth, most porn is degrading, and therefore it is entirely reasonable to say and behave as if that is the default. To act as if the outliers somehow redeem the entire concept of porn is disingenuous.
And for the record, showing people fucking, be it cartoons, film, books, or live, is not inherently bad. If I was going to draw the line anywhere, it would be somewhere around the time when the need for cash surpasses the need for sex/exhibitionism/desire.
Hmmm, this is also a good point. Perhaps 1. is not doing what I think it is doing.
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 07:18:09 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 06:52:25 PM
The Good Reverend Roger's Official Holy Man™ Statement on Porn:
I was listening to a war correspondent speak at the U of A, a few years back. He said that humans like to destroy, especially to destroy other humans. That it gives them a feeling of godlike power to revoke another person's charter. That one of humans' favorite activities is to dehumanize and objectify others, literally objectify them if possible by changing their status from living human individual to inert object over which they have total power and superiority. And I'm going "Uh huh, sad but true," and then he says "Just like pornography." And I said, "Well dammit that too is unfortunately correct. If I am opposed to one of those things I sure can't justifiably cater to my whims in enjoying the other."
Please use this for your next Porn Princess thread.
There won't be another one. We've had an unfortunate tendency over the years to have 8 different threads about the same thing going. I posted one thread. I expected THIS thread to be something a little different, but it wasn't.
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 26, 2012, 06:02:10 PM
"I try not to let it affect me, but it does. It affects my personal relationships. When I'm stripping for a living, my first instinct is to get you to like me, because you liking me means you'll give me more stuff. So I end up having ulterior motives for making friends and getting to know people. And it sucks, and I know it's a shitty thing to be thinking, but I can't help it."
I responded to this, but lost the post because I'm still not quite used to the "hey, some people have posted since you started writing this so might want to check it out before this goes through" functionality. This ties in well, with Fidel's point above and the psychology of it.
I'm going to have to give this some more thought.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 07:21:18 PM
There won't be another one. We've had an unfortunate tendency over the years to have 8 different threads about the same thing going. I posted one thread. I expected THIS thread to be something a little different, but it wasn't.
Are you going to merge threads? And if someone has an epiphany on this topic a year from now, the hope is that they will Google search, find it and bump it and not start a new thread?
In an ideal world, that would happen.
We live in THIS one, which means some jackass will start four more threads, because he's a special snowflake whose ideas make us ALL look badwrong and we will flock to agree.
Or shit on his head.
Whichever.
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 06:18:55 PM
Quote from: VERBL on September 26, 2012, 05:34:31 PM
AA, something I think you might just be missing here is the odd focus on reality here on PDCOM. Unlike discussions on this kind if topic in most places, the focus here seems to me first and foremost – especially in this discussion – to lie in understanding reality. Not in making normative statements (i.e. "x is badwrong") or imaginary policy concepts (i.e. "x should be banned") and when people do make normative statements, the culture here seems to, perhaps unusually, not add an implication of policy, public or otherwise. In other words, the discussion of porn, to me and to many of the others, I suspect, is not about what should be done, but about how things are. Not about drawing sharp lines that can be used in some imaginary world in which we dictate policy, not even sharp lines for personal policy – since the conclusion on personal policy is typically "think for yourself, schmuck." I think this community sees itself more as a way to thoroughly inform oneself, and to hash out ideas, but emphatically not a way to hash out guidelines for life, personal or public.
I see that you understand this to a degree, I just feel your line of argumentation assumes an implication that is not there. It's a valid pursuit to try to figure out where one should draw the line, and you raise interesting thoughts and questions. I just think you're missing something fundamental about how this community approaches this kind of discussion, or at least the discussion this thread branched off from. When another thread is started with a clear mission statement, that'll be a different situation, and might possibly generate less animosity, at least in a perfect world where this thread never happened so people aren't predisposed to that animosity.
I'm very open to the possibility that I'm speaking out of my anus here, BTW.
VERB,
Amateur Interweb anthropologist
I hear you. My question is whose and what reality? Let's say we gloss over all the problems I've been hammering away at here, and let's suppose for a moment that we accept something like this argument.
1. Porn is inherently exploitative and dehumanizing.
2. If something in inherently exploitative and dehumanizing, then we should not support/do it.
C. We should not support/do porn.
Fine. Now, what happens to whatever needs/desires that were being met by porn? Maybe you guys should start a fun thread of all the ways people could get off without it? Should people sit on top of their washing machines? Read romance novels? Maybe find real people (because no one consuming porn thought of that)? Personally, I'm going to check in with the Cistercians, because nothing is hotter than a man in uniform.
I think you don't quite understand.
The bolded parts seem to assume the goal is to reach a joint conclusion. That is not the goal for me, nor, I suspect, for most regulars here. There's a saying around here, or at least there used to be, that "a conclusion is simply where you stopped thinking." (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/memebombs/kwotes.pl?action=show&id=590) (remember that one, old-timers?)
And the general premise of this community seems to be "DONT TELL ME WHAT TO THINK YOURE NOT MY REAL FATHER."
This was a discussion about how things are, in reality. Whose reality? The reality of those directly involved in the matter at hand, in this case people working in the sex industry. You keep trying to make it about how things could/should be. And you do it as if the consideration of meaningless hypotheticals has some bearing on the original discussion of very concrete realities, which a few people here have had direct or second-hand experience of, whereas I and apparently you have only had media depictions and imagination to work with. What drew me into the porn princess thread was the information about what that industry is really like, and that's probably what a lot of the participants there were after too. Comparisons with language work and with hypothetical worlds are just completely off-topic, and I think the mistake you and holist keep making (and quite likely a lot of the rest of us too) is to talk about these things as if they were all part of one topic. They are not. Your introspective exploration of how porn could be, or as LMNO points out, how some outlying cases are, has practically no bearing on the discussion of
how the porn industry generally is, in the majority of cases. Nor does Holist's musings about how cerebral freelance work is exploitative.
And I honestly don't know why I keep trying to smooth over this rift, rather than just enjoying the show while occasionally fanning the flames like my esteemed colleagues do. What the fuck is wrong with me? Can we please now discuss, in this thread, my need to understand and explain this meta stuff? It's super important that we do it here, because it occurred to me while participating in this thread! I WILL NOT BE SILENCED.
*cough*
Yeah whatever.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 07:08:59 PM
I don't see it as less bad.
I see it as Prostitution is worse than stripping is worse than porn.
Because at least porn actresses aren't being pawed at by random creepers in a dreary dimly-lit room with worn out carpeting and horrible stains on the undersides of the tables. They are at least isolated from their audience.
Yea, that's true, actually. I was thinking of some of the awful things porn stars are subjected to in videos, but, thinking about it more, some strippers are subjected to much the same, but have a leering audience to deal with as well, is much worse. Whether it's "regular" stripping or any number of other "performances", that *live* aspect does make it that much more demeaning.
Quote from: VERBL on September 26, 2012, 07:38:52 PM
There's a saying around here, or at least there used to be, that "a conclusion is simply where you stopped thinking." (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/memebombs/kwotes.pl?action=show&id=590) (remember that one, old-timers?)
No. Because that itself was a conclusion, and so I stopped thinking. Haven't started since.
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 07:33:10 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 07:21:18 PM
There won't be another one. We've had an unfortunate tendency over the years to have 8 different threads about the same thing going. I posted one thread. I expected THIS thread to be something a little different, but it wasn't.
Are you going to merge threads? And if someone has an epiphany on this topic a year from now, the hope is that they will Google search, find it and bump it and not start a new thread?
No, my policy is to just let the burning remains sink into the swamp.
Quote from: Luna on September 26, 2012, 07:38:00 PM
In an ideal world, that would happen.
We live in THIS one, which means some jackass will start four more threads, because he's a special snowflake
You could have stopped right there.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 07:46:40 PM
Quote from: Luna on September 26, 2012, 07:38:00 PM
In an ideal world, that would happen.
We live in THIS one, which means some jackass will start four more threads, because he's a special snowflake
You could have stopped right there.
Yeah, but I like to hear myself type.
Quote from: VERBL on September 26, 2012, 07:38:52 PM
Comparisons with language work and with hypothetical worlds are just completely off-topic, and I think the mistake you and holist keep making (and quite likely a lot of the rest of us too) is to talk about these things as if they were all part of one topic. They are not. Your introspective exploration of how porn could be, or as LMNO points out, how some outlying cases are, has practically no bearing on the discussion of how the porn industry generally is, in the majority of cases. Nor does Holist's musings about how cerebral freelance work is exploitative.
I'm new. Been meaning to check out this forum for some time, and while you (and everyone else) may have been interested in getting a handle on what working conditions in porn is like, I took the original Porn Princess narrative to be one akin to a kind of "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas" allegory aimed at consumers/viewers of porn. In retrospect, maybe the fact that no one was offering up a perspective from that angle, it should have been a sign that the thread was about something else. Perhaps that was a mistake. But, if that's the worst fuck-up I have all week, I'll consider it a success.
This thread is now about LMNO.
SHAKE THAT
EV'RY DAY I'M SHUFFLING.
:noodledance:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 05:38:09 PM
I agree, for the most part.
I think porn and prostitution is degrading and wrong, but I don't they should be illegal for the same reason I don't think pot smoking should be illegal...That is to say, I don't get to tell you what to do.
(Note that the above is not an invitation to turn this into drug thread #3459. It was just a comparison. So shut up.)
Like using pot, hiring a prostitute makes me more creative and in touch with my Higher Self, man.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 08:44:20 PM
This thread is now about LMNO.
SHAKE THAT
(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ma1wafniaA1rbonrno8_400.gif)
Holy shit, that's a cowboy hat, not a cat ears hood.
I am disappoint.
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 04:14:32 PM
Quote from: Pixie on September 26, 2012, 04:00:52 PM
No real understanding of the reality of sex work?
There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.
I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.
How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?
As I mentioned before, in apparently yet another portion of the thread you couldn't be bothered to read, I don't
need to read such a blog, particularly, because I did that myself. And dated a stripper. And know people in sex work. Furthermore I am extremely sex-positive, as are most of my friends who have worked/still work in the sex industry. I'm not exactly a "Virtuous Woman™", although I am a woman of many virtues.
So wait, what was your point?
One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".
If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism. When I get bored taking the train downtown I send upskirt shots to my boy du jour. Not industry. Just sex. Not relevant to this conversation, any more than a woman making love to her husband in the privacy of their bedroom is relevant to this conversation.
I'm just hoping that nobody else will bring up that particular red herring AGAIN.
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 26, 2012, 09:22:28 PM
Holy shit, that's a cowboy hat, not a cat ears hood.
I am disappoint.
GANGNAM STYLE!
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 26, 2012, 09:22:28 PM
Holy shit, that's a cowboy hat, not a cat ears hood.
I am disappoint.
THAT IS WHAT MAKES IT ALL THE MORE BETTERER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :argh!: :argh!:
Quote from: Doktor D. Jennifer Phox on September 26, 2012, 07:15:08 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 03:54:20 PM
Not to nitpick, but I doubt we have any real understanding of reality of the sex work situation.
Hey, who are you speaking for, friend? Certainly not me.
He's speaking to Theoretical Internet People, who are all just like him and lack the diversity of background and life experiences that make up the actual people who participate on this board.
(http://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/assets/international/EjzIJ.gif)
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 07:28:09 PM
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 26, 2012, 06:02:10 PM
"I try not to let it affect me, but it does. It affects my personal relationships. When I'm stripping for a living, my first instinct is to get you to like me, because you liking me means you'll give me more stuff. So I end up having ulterior motives for making friends and getting to know people. And it sucks, and I know it's a shitty thing to be thinking, but I can't help it."
I responded to this, but lost the post because I'm still not quite used to the "hey, some people have posted since you started writing this so might want to check it out before this goes through" functionality. This ties in well, with Fidel's point above and the psychology of it.
I'm going to have to give this some more thought.
Holy shit, what is this?
Thinking about things and perhaps reconsidering your position?
ON THE INTERNET?
:asplode:
WHERE IS THE GODDAMN HEAD-EXPLODE EMOTE
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 10:10:28 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 07:28:09 PM
Quote from: Freeky Queen of DERP on September 26, 2012, 06:02:10 PM
"I try not to let it affect me, but it does. It affects my personal relationships. When I'm stripping for a living, my first instinct is to get you to like me, because you liking me means you'll give me more stuff. So I end up having ulterior motives for making friends and getting to know people. And it sucks, and I know it's a shitty thing to be thinking, but I can't help it."
I responded to this, but lost the post because I'm still not quite used to the "hey, some people have posted since you started writing this so might want to check it out before this goes through" functionality. This ties in well, with Fidel's point above and the psychology of it.
I'm going to have to give this some more thought.
Holy shit, what is this?
Thinking about things and perhaps reconsidering your position?
ON THE INTERNET?
:asplode:
WHERE IS THE GODDAMN HEAD-EXPLODE EMOTE
IKNORITE?
Also, we need :asplode: back. :cry:
As a theoretical internet prostitute who specializes in translator roleplays, I am offended.
(http://i.imgur.com/eQhXi.jpg)
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 09:46:30 PM
One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".
It's also the horrible part.
The very fact that sex can be industrialized gives me the jimjams.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 10:42:15 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 10:26:03 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 09:46:30 PM
One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".
It's also the horrible part.
Yep. Exactly.
I just had this nightmare thought of being a maintenance supervisor in that industry.
QuoteWork order 1325538
Johnny Bigschlong's gonads have deteriorated again. Please remove and replace. Use zirconium parts to avoid future corrosion.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 10:44:27 PM
QuoteWork order 1325538
Johnny Bigschlong's gonads have deteriorated again. Please remove and replace. Use zirconium parts to avoid future corrosion.
In reality, sadly it would probably be cheaper to simply replace Johnny Bigschlong... therefor that is what would happen.
Quote from: Hoopla on September 26, 2012, 10:47:04 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 10:44:27 PM
QuoteWork order 1325538
Johnny Bigschlong's gonads have deteriorated again. Please remove and replace. Use zirconium parts to avoid future corrosion.
In reality, sadly it would probably be cheaper to simply replace Johnny Bigschlong... therefor that is what would happen.
Quit stomping on my dreams. :sadbanana:
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 09:36:41 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 04:14:32 PM
Quote from: Pixie on September 26, 2012, 04:00:52 PM
No real understanding of the reality of sex work?
There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.
I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.
How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?
As I mentioned before, in apparently yet another portion of the thread you couldn't be bothered to read, I don't need to read such a blog, particularly, because I did that myself. And dated a stripper. And know people in sex work. Furthermore I am extremely sex-positive, as are most of my friends who have worked/still work in the sex industry. I'm not exactly a "Virtuous Woman™", although I am a woman of many virtues.
So wait, what was your point?
So, your experience and circle of friends is all the anecdotal evidence anyone could ever need and maybe you could just issue proclamations on the topic? Why didn't you just say so?
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 09:46:30 PM
One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".
If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism. When I get bored taking the train downtown I send upskirt shots to my boy du jour. Not industry. Just sex. Not relevant to this conversation, any more than a woman making love to her husband in the privacy of their bedroom is relevant to this conversation.
I'm just hoping that nobody else will bring up that particular red herring AGAIN.
Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry. But, hey, since I don't have my Discordian topic secret decoder ring yet, I'll take your word for it.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 10:49:50 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on September 26, 2012, 10:47:04 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 10:44:27 PM
QuoteWork order 1325538
Johnny Bigschlong's gonads have deteriorated again. Please remove and replace. Use zirconium parts to avoid future corrosion.
In reality, sadly it would probably be cheaper to simply replace Johnny Bigschlong... therefor that is what would happen.
Quit stomping on my dreams. :sadbanana:
It hurts me more than it hurts you, sonny-jim.
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 10:50:50 PM
Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry.
Porn is part of the sex industry.
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 10:50:50 PMI thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry.
Wait wait wait... you think the two are mutually exclusive? *giggle*
Quote from: Hoopla on September 26, 2012, 10:51:06 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 10:49:50 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on September 26, 2012, 10:47:04 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 10:44:27 PM
QuoteWork order 1325538
Johnny Bigschlong's gonads have deteriorated again. Please remove and replace. Use zirconium parts to avoid future corrosion.
In reality, sadly it would probably be cheaper to simply replace Johnny Bigschlong... therefor that is what would happen.
Quit stomping on my dreams. :sadbanana:
It hurts me more than it hurts you, sonny-jim.
I bet.
Doo dee doo dee doo, firing up photoshop.
Doo dee doo dee OH FUCK OH GAWD WHAT IS THAT?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 10:52:50 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on September 26, 2012, 10:51:06 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 10:49:50 PM
Quote from: Hoopla on September 26, 2012, 10:47:04 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 10:44:27 PM
QuoteWork order 1325538
Johnny Bigschlong's gonads have deteriorated again. Please remove and replace. Use zirconium parts to avoid future corrosion.
In reality, sadly it would probably be cheaper to simply replace Johnny Bigschlong... therefor that is what would happen.
Quit stomping on my dreams. :sadbanana:
It hurts me more than it hurts you, sonny-jim.
I bet.
Doo dee doo dee doo, firing up photoshop.
Doo dee doo dee OH FUCK OH GAWD WHAT IS THAT?
I never knew hemorrhoids were so common five years ago... that's something I can't unlearn.
Quote from: Hoopla on September 26, 2012, 10:54:10 PM
I never knew hemorrhoids were so common five years ago... that's something I can't unlearn.
Also, what the fuck is up with the guys in porn? Is it really necessary to have 10 face piercings and obnoxious tattoos?
I mean, I was lining up for another run at the 700 Club a while back, and I had to go to Germany to get ammunition, because the domestic stuff was EMBARRASSING.
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 10:50:50 PM
But, hey, since I don't have my Discordian topic secret decoder ring yet, I'll take your word for it.
Two things:
1. Watch your butthurt levels, sir. It's hard to say, but it looks like you're getting into Chris Brown territory, there.
2. The codes are all for stupid Ovaltine commercials anyway.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 10:51:54 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 10:50:50 PM
Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry.
Porn is part of the sex industry.
Let me quote:
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 09:46:30 PM
One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".
If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism...
So apparently, we'll just pretend that making a video for your own exhibitionist pleasure and posting it online isn't porn. Hope the people watching it know that and can feel good about it. So, now that we have that all cleared up...
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 10:58:42 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 10:51:54 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 10:50:50 PM
Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry.
Porn is part of the sex industry.
Let me quote:
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 09:46:30 PM
One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".
If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism...
So apparently, we'll just pretend that making a video for your own exhibitionist pleasure and posting it online isn't porn. Hope the people watching it know that and can feel good about it. So, now that we have that all cleared up...
I can agree with that statement, if we're distinguishing between exhibitionism and porn.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 10:58:32 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 10:50:50 PM
But, hey, since I don't have my Discordian topic secret decoder ring yet, I'll take your word for it.
Two things:
1. Watch your butthurt levels, sir. It's hard to say, but it looks like you're getting into Chris Brown territory, there.
2. The codes are all for stupid Ovaltine commercials anyway.
Should I know who Chris Brown is? Is that another life experience I'm missing?
:lulz:
Okay,since you need your hand held through this: Professional sex workers work in the sex industry. Porn stars, strippers, prostitutes, phone sex workers, etc. People who post naked pictures of videos on the internet=/= professional sex workers.
Is it difficult for you to divorce the word "porn" from meaning "random naked pictures" and apply it in context to "commercially produced, for-profit, often exploitative erotic media"?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 11:00:59 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 10:58:42 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 10:51:54 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 10:50:50 PM
Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry.
Porn is part of the sex industry.
Let me quote:
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 09:46:30 PM
One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".
If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism...
So apparently, we'll just pretend that making a video for your own exhibitionist pleasure and posting it online isn't porn. Hope the people watching it know that and can feel good about it. So, now that we have that all cleared up...
I can agree with that statement, if we're distinguishing between exhibitionism and porn.
I can too, except for the fact that exhibitionism looks, smells and tastes like porn. And one of the problems raised previously is that the sex industry makes porn that looks like exhibitionism. So, nice IDEALISTIC distinction, but not one that works in REALITY everyone here cares about.
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 10:50:50 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 09:36:41 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 04:14:32 PM
Quote from: Pixie on September 26, 2012, 04:00:52 PM
No real understanding of the reality of sex work?
There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.
I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.
How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?
As I mentioned before, in apparently yet another portion of the thread you couldn't be bothered to read, I don't need to read such a blog, particularly, because I did that myself. And dated a stripper. And know people in sex work. Furthermore I am extremely sex-positive, as are most of my friends who have worked/still work in the sex industry. I'm not exactly a "Virtuous Woman™", although I am a woman of many virtues.
So wait, what was your point?
So, your experience and circle of friends is all the anecdotal evidence anyone could ever need and maybe you could just issue proclamations on the topic? Why didn't you just say so?
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 09:46:30 PM
One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".
If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism. When I get bored taking the train downtown I send upskirt shots to my boy du jour. Not industry. Just sex. Not relevant to this conversation, any more than a woman making love to her husband in the privacy of their bedroom is relevant to this conversation.
I'm just hoping that nobody else will bring up that particular red herring AGAIN.
Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry. But, hey, since I don't have my Discordian topic secret decoder ring yet, I'll take your word for it.
Thanks for being dismissive about my perspective coming from the exact angle you suggested people read a blog to get perspective on.
And no, the topic, originally, was prostitution, and this thread split, specifically, includes "wage" in the title. This topic is about sex for money, not sex for fun. Pornography can be fun, both in the making and the consuming, and it can be non-exploitative in reality as well as in theory. The porn INDUSTRY is a subset of pornography, and that's the one people are talking about here, which is why the alienation and wage slave sub-topic came up.
I still don't believe you read the early pages of the other thread, because all of this was spelled out quite clearly there.
Quote from: Doktor D. Jennifer Phox on September 26, 2012, 11:07:03 PM
:lulz:
Okay,since you need your hand held through this: Professional sex workers work in the sex industry. Porn stars, strippers, prostitutes, phone sex workers, etc. People who post naked pictures of videos on the internet=/= professional sex workers.
Is it difficult for you to divorce the word "porn" from meaning "random naked pictures" and apply it in context to "commercially produced, for-profit, often exploitative erotic media"?
Once again, you can be counted on to say exactly what I'm thinking. :)
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 10:58:42 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 10:51:54 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 10:50:50 PM
Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry.
Porn is part of the sex industry.
Let me quote:
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 09:46:30 PM
One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".
If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism...
So apparently, we'll just pretend that making a video for your own exhibitionist pleasure and posting it online isn't porn. Hope the people watching it know that and can feel good about it. So, now that we have that all cleared up...
Why are you quoting two different people as if one is responsible for the posts of the other? :? We're not interchangeable.
Here, guys, let's get this semantic nonsense cleared up:
QuoteDefinition of PORNOGRAPHY
1: the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual excitement
2: material (as books or a photograph) that depicts erotic behavior and is intended to cause sexual excitement
3: the depiction of acts in a sensational manner so as to arouse a quick intense emotional reaction <the pornography of violence>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pornography
I write pornography. I take pornographic pictures. I am, however, not a purveyor of pornography nor a participant in the porn industry.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 11:09:45 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 10:50:50 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 09:36:41 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 04:14:32 PM
Quote from: Pixie on September 26, 2012, 04:00:52 PM
No real understanding of the reality of sex work?
There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.
I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.
How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?
As I mentioned before, in apparently yet another portion of the thread you couldn't be bothered to read, I don't need to read such a blog, particularly, because I did that myself. And dated a stripper. And know people in sex work. Furthermore I am extremely sex-positive, as are most of my friends who have worked/still work in the sex industry. I'm not exactly a "Virtuous Woman™", although I am a woman of many virtues.
So wait, what was your point?
So, your experience and circle of friends is all the anecdotal evidence anyone could ever need and maybe you could just issue proclamations on the topic? Why didn't you just say so?
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 09:46:30 PM
One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".
If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism. When I get bored taking the train downtown I send upskirt shots to my boy du jour. Not industry. Just sex. Not relevant to this conversation, any more than a woman making love to her husband in the privacy of their bedroom is relevant to this conversation.
I'm just hoping that nobody else will bring up that particular red herring AGAIN.
Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry. But, hey, since I don't have my Discordian topic secret decoder ring yet, I'll take your word for it.
Thanks for being dismissive about my perspective coming from the exact angle you suggested people read a blog to get perspective on.
And no, the topic, originally, was prostitution, and this thread split, specifically, includes "wage" in the title. This topic is about sex for money, not sex for fun. Pornography can be fun, both in the making and the consuming, and it can be non-exploitative in reality as well as in theory. The porn INDUSTRY is a subset of pornography, and that's the one people are talking about here, which is why the alienation and wage slave sub-topic came up.
I still don't believe you read the early pages of the other thread, because all of this was spelled out quite clearly there.
I actually never suggested people read a blog to get perspective on it. I was critical of that point. But, you are right that I shouldn't be dismissive, but from my view, I'm giving a little of what you are giving me.
As was pointed out, it is questionable whether there really is something different going on here, and I have proceeded as if there isn't. Maybe I'm wrong, yet again.
I'll read the whole OP thread again. I don't have time at the moment, but in the next few days. I had read the first few pages and than continued reading the thread a few days later, so maybe it all become a jumbled mess in my mind. If I missed as badly as you say, I'll be embarrassed and apologize. Fair enough?
Am I right in saying that, in accordance with what I picked up from the context of posts from the "Porn Princess" thread and earlier in this thread, those here who are critical of "porn" are referring specifically to the industry which produces sexual content for profit, and not, say, to dirty emails Roger might write to his wife or to naughty cell phone pics Phox might send to a girl or boyfriend, even though those are also, technically, pornographic?
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 11:08:06 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 11:00:59 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 10:58:42 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 10:51:54 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 10:50:50 PM
Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry.
Porn is part of the sex industry.
Let me quote:
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 09:46:30 PM
One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".
If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism...
So apparently, we'll just pretend that making a video for your own exhibitionist pleasure and posting it online isn't porn. Hope the people watching it know that and can feel good about it. So, now that we have that all cleared up...
I can agree with that statement, if we're distinguishing between exhibitionism and porn.
I can too, except for the fact that exhibitionism looks, smells and tastes like porn. And one of the problems raised previously is that the sex industry makes porn that looks like exhibitionism. So, nice IDEALISTIC distinction, but not one that works in REALITY everyone here cares about.
Well, then, it seems that we have some definitions to hammer out.
And there is in fact a real distinction. Exhibitionists are doing it to get their kink on. Porn professionals do it because they need a paycheck.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 11:30:54 PM
Am I right in saying that, in accordance with what I picked up from the context of posts from the "Porn Princess" thread and earlier in this thread, those here who are critical of "porn" are referring specifically to the industry which produces sexual content for profit, and not, say, to dirty emails Roger might write to his wife or to naughty cell phone pics Phox might send to a girl or boyfriend, even though those are also, technically, pornographic?
That is what I'm talking about.
And the emails weren't that dirty, no matter what those FBI bastards say.
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 11:30:18 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 11:09:45 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 10:50:50 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 09:36:41 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 04:14:32 PM
Quote from: Pixie on September 26, 2012, 04:00:52 PM
No real understanding of the reality of sex work?
There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.
I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.
How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?
As I mentioned before, in apparently yet another portion of the thread you couldn't be bothered to read, I don't need to read such a blog, particularly, because I did that myself. And dated a stripper. And know people in sex work. Furthermore I am extremely sex-positive, as are most of my friends who have worked/still work in the sex industry. I'm not exactly a "Virtuous Woman™", although I am a woman of many virtues.
So wait, what was your point?
So, your experience and circle of friends is all the anecdotal evidence anyone could ever need and maybe you could just issue proclamations on the topic? Why didn't you just say so?
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 09:46:30 PM
One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".
If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism. When I get bored taking the train downtown I send upskirt shots to my boy du jour. Not industry. Just sex. Not relevant to this conversation, any more than a woman making love to her husband in the privacy of their bedroom is relevant to this conversation.
I'm just hoping that nobody else will bring up that particular red herring AGAIN.
Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry. But, hey, since I don't have my Discordian topic secret decoder ring yet, I'll take your word for it.
Thanks for being dismissive about my perspective coming from the exact angle you suggested people read a blog to get perspective on.
And no, the topic, originally, was prostitution, and this thread split, specifically, includes "wage" in the title. This topic is about sex for money, not sex for fun. Pornography can be fun, both in the making and the consuming, and it can be non-exploitative in reality as well as in theory. The porn INDUSTRY is a subset of pornography, and that's the one people are talking about here, which is why the alienation and wage slave sub-topic came up.
I still don't believe you read the early pages of the other thread, because all of this was spelled out quite clearly there.
I actually never suggested people read a blog to get perspective on it. I was critical of that point. But, you are right that I shouldn't be dismissive, but from my view, I'm giving a little of what you are giving me.
You didn't? What did you mean when you said the bolded, below?
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 04:14:32 PM
Quote from: Pixie on September 26, 2012, 04:00:52 PM
No real understanding of the reality of sex work?
There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.
I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.
How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?
I replied to the bolded by saying that I don't really feel I need to read someone else's blog, since that was my own experience and it, naturally, helps inform my perspective.
Quote
As was pointed out, it is questionable whether there really is something different going on here, and I have proceeded as if there isn't. Maybe I'm wrong, yet again.
I'll read the whole OP thread again. I don't have time at the moment, but in the next few days. I had read the first few pages and than continued reading the thread a few days later, so maybe it all become a jumbled mess in my mind. If I missed as badly as you say, I'll be embarrassed and apologize. Fair enough?
Sure. But when I suggested you do this before, in the other thread, while it was still fairly manageably small, you got snarky on me, so I'm skeptical now.
Also, Ayatollah, you seem to be arguing a definition that involves "obscenity" standards. While this is a worthy subject of debate, it isn't the actual topic here. What we've been discussing is the exploitive nature of the sex industry.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 11:38:06 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 11:08:06 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 11:00:59 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 10:58:42 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 10:51:54 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 10:50:50 PM
Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry.
Porn is part of the sex industry.
Let me quote:
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 09:46:30 PM
One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".
If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism...
So apparently, we'll just pretend that making a video for your own exhibitionist pleasure and posting it online isn't porn. Hope the people watching it know that and can feel good about it. So, now that we have that all cleared up...
I can agree with that statement, if we're distinguishing between exhibitionism and porn.
I can too, except for the fact that exhibitionism looks, smells and tastes like porn. And one of the problems raised previously is that the sex industry makes porn that looks like exhibitionism. So, nice IDEALISTIC distinction, but not one that works in REALITY everyone here cares about.
Well, then, it seems that we have some definitions to hammer out.
And there is in fact a real distinction. Exhibitionists are doing it to get their kink on. Porn professionals do it because they need a paycheck.
Being probably one of the most anti-sex-industry spag here, I have no problem with those getting their exhibitionist kink on AT ALL. Being against the sex industry does not equal sex negative prude, or a desire to censor.
I have also written porn stories too, for the kinky lulz... isn't enough temperature play erotic fiction imho, so I wrote my own.
(https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1715856/clips/frosty.jpg)
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 10:38:01 PM
The very fact that sex can be industrialized gives me the jimjams.
Bollocks. We've all heard about your...
device.
If that isn't industrial sex, I'm Pat Robertson.
In Ireland, they're explicitly denying sex workers are part of an industry.
http://feministire.wordpress.com/2012/09/09/the-irish-trade-union-movement-throws-sex-workers-under-a-bus-2/
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on September 27, 2012, 04:58:51 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 10:38:01 PM
The very fact that sex can be industrialized gives me the jimjams.
Bollocks. We've all heard about your...device.
If that isn't industrial sex, I'm Pat Robertson.
MAAAAAYONAAAAIIIIIISE!!! :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :vom:
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on September 27, 2012, 04:58:51 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 10:38:01 PM
The very fact that sex can be industrialized gives me the jimjams.
Bollocks. We've all heard about your...device.
If that isn't industrial sex, I'm Pat Robertson.
Doesn't count. That was SCIENCE.
The question is, was it a hard SCIENCE?
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on September 27, 2012, 05:49:33 PM
The question is, was it a hard SCIENCE?
Yes. Also, apparently, an aerospace project, though with limited range.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 27, 2012, 05:51:13 PM
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on September 27, 2012, 05:49:33 PM
The question is, was it a hard SCIENCE?
Yes. Also, apparently, an aerospace project, though with limited range.
I don't think that guy has forgiven you yet, for his dog thinking it was a chew toy. :lulz:
Quote from: Cain on September 27, 2012, 05:06:24 PM
In Ireland, they're explicitly denying sex workers are part of an industry.
http://feministire.wordpress.com/2012/09/09/the-irish-trade-union-movement-throws-sex-workers-under-a-bus-2/
:argh!:
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 11:41:34 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 11:30:18 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 11:09:45 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 10:50:50 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 09:36:41 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 04:14:32 PM
Quote from: Pixie on September 26, 2012, 04:00:52 PM
No real understanding of the reality of sex work?
There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.
I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.
How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?
As I mentioned before, in apparently yet another portion of the thread you couldn't be bothered to read, I don't need to read such a blog, particularly, because I did that myself. And dated a stripper. And know people in sex work. Furthermore I am extremely sex-positive, as are most of my friends who have worked/still work in the sex industry. I'm not exactly a "Virtuous Woman™", although I am a woman of many virtues.
So wait, what was your point?
So, your experience and circle of friends is all the anecdotal evidence anyone could ever need and maybe you could just issue proclamations on the topic? Why didn't you just say so?
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 09:46:30 PM
One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".
If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism. When I get bored taking the train downtown I send upskirt shots to my boy du jour. Not industry. Just sex. Not relevant to this conversation, any more than a woman making love to her husband in the privacy of their bedroom is relevant to this conversation.
I'm just hoping that nobody else will bring up that particular red herring AGAIN.
Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry. But, hey, since I don't have my Discordian topic secret decoder ring yet, I'll take your word for it.
Thanks for being dismissive about my perspective coming from the exact angle you suggested people read a blog to get perspective on.
And no, the topic, originally, was prostitution, and this thread split, specifically, includes "wage" in the title. This topic is about sex for money, not sex for fun. Pornography can be fun, both in the making and the consuming, and it can be non-exploitative in reality as well as in theory. The porn INDUSTRY is a subset of pornography, and that's the one people are talking about here, which is why the alienation and wage slave sub-topic came up.
I still don't believe you read the early pages of the other thread, because all of this was spelled out quite clearly there.
I actually never suggested people read a blog to get perspective on it. I was critical of that point. But, you are right that I shouldn't be dismissive, but from my view, I'm giving a little of what you are giving me.
You didn't? What did you mean when you said the bolded, below?
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 04:14:32 PM
Quote from: Pixie on September 26, 2012, 04:00:52 PM
No real understanding of the reality of sex work?
There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.
I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.
How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?
I replied to the bolded by saying that I don't really feel I need to read someone else's blog, since that was my own experience and it, naturally, helps inform my perspective.
Quote
As was pointed out, it is questionable whether there really is something different going on here, and I have proceeded as if there isn't. Maybe I'm wrong, yet again.
I'll read the whole OP thread again. I don't have time at the moment, but in the next few days. I had read the first few pages and than continued reading the thread a few days later, so maybe it all become a jumbled mess in my mind. If I missed as badly as you say, I'll be embarrassed and apologize. Fair enough?
Sure. But when I suggested you do this before, in the other thread, while it was still fairly manageably small, you got snarky on me, so I'm skeptical now.
From the context, I think it is clear that I'm saying these blogs don't actually exist partly because of the danger to the author's reputation, pointing to a selection bias and only getting one part of the story? Maybe not.
I serendipitously came across this yesterday, which I thought would be interesting to add:
"The production manager printed out a copy of each performer's page in the APHSS database. I signed my own copy and James's, indicating that my results were mine and accurate and that I had seen James's and was comfortable working with him and his clean test which had been taken less than 14 days prior. He did the same. Then the production manager performed an inspection. He looked in our mouths, at both sides of our hands, and at our genitals to make sure there were no visible sores or open wounds. There was another paper to sign stating that we have no sores or open wounds on or in our mouths, hands, and genitals and had been inspected. We also looked at each others genitals, mostly for fun but if either of us had seen (or smelled) something odd we would have called off the scene ourselves...We were able to have fun, uninhibited sex with each other without a condom because we both knew that the chances of either of us being infected with an STD are very low. Far lower than, say, a stranger at a bar or a person who hasn't been tested in a year or more. Our frequent STD testing, the APHSS database (and AIM before them), and the skin inspections are self-imposed."
http://stoya.tumblr.com/post/32205235912/testing-vs-condoms-in-pornography (http://stoya.tumblr.com/post/32205235912/testing-vs-condoms-in-pornography)
I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be with a visual inspection and sniff test, but then again, I probably couldn't tell a herpes lesion from an ass pimple anyway (sheltered life, I guess). I think what I found even more interesting given the context of this PD discussion is how often she uses the word "fun", four times. It doesn't negate was is being said here, but it is definitely a very different picture of working conditions and exploitation than what Roger's OP was painting.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 26, 2012, 11:44:43 PM
Also, Ayatollah, you seem to be arguing a definition that involves "obscenity" standards. While this is a worthy subject of debate, it isn't the actual topic here. What we've been discussing is the exploitive nature of the sex industry.
I think a lot of the discussion is just talking past one another. I understand this thread, or at least the previous one this was part of, was on exploitation in the sex industry. I have been trying to get at the issue of what this means for a consumer/viewer of porn, as a practical guideline for life - which is what I take to be part of the point of asking this question in the first place. However, depending on your perspective, this issue might be off-topic.
I have not been trying to make any kind of obscenity claims, or to claim any particular person is a prude or people holding an anti-sex industry position are prudes or some of the other things being ascribed to me. Although, I did say that we need to be careful about our sex baggage we smuggle in and rationalize - which applies to everyone. For example, if porn doesn't do anything for you, then you're going to view it differently than someone who regularly watches it with their spouse/lover/whatever before having sex with them.
In any event, I think the best course for me at this point is to just shut up. I'll read the thread through, if I think I was out of line, I'll post one more time to say so. Cheers!
Sorry to miss out on all the fun, been... working. about 25 hours in the last 33.
Had to do drugs to handle it, now I need to work more. Entitled ain't all it's
trumped up to be, sometimes.
***
BUT IN THE MEANTIME, I've been thinking about this subject and about this community
a lot, and my conclusion is a sneaking suspicion that you, Roger, may perhaps be a
teeny bit of a disaster tourist. So I'd like to shake your hand.
***
A Description of the Journey that Got Me ThereSo there I was, minding my own business...
...getting irate with Roger and Nigel and LMNO and v3x and a few others i'm sure ...
but, you know, in my good own time, hippie-ing along with the flow, indulging in
baboonery like only i know how (though very similarly to most everyone, at a guess),
thinking to myself, hey, much as i'd love to give it up, there'd be no point in
trying to force it, 'cos much as i do wish I walked away from them dead horses, it
would do me no good if I did so
against my better judgment...
... much as I'd love to get up on me hind feet, if it doesn't come
naturally I may fall over and break my tail... a fat lot of good that would do me...
...thinking about how to get around this problem and getting nowhere with it (I'm
sure you know the feeling), collecting equitable share of enmity like wild flowers
in a meadow as is my wont, when, ALL OF A SUDDEN...
Pixie struck with the blog of the "Free Irish Woman" trafficking/prostitution
survivor. So I went there and started to read her story.
It was gutwrenching, I almost threw up on my computer, and I'm pretty scared of
vomiting.
It was very hard to keep reading, and I almost immediately started looking for
something to suggest it wasn't real. But I kept reading, and then moved onto the
survivor community page, then read maybe two more stories by others, and my feeble
attempt at denial was blown away: this was undoubtedly real. These stories. These traumas.
You can retrace my steps, if you like:
http://theprostitutionexperience.com/?p=148
http://theprostitutionexperience.com/?p=173
http://theprostitutionexperience.com/?p=15
http://survivorsconnect.wordpress.com/
http://survivorsconnect.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/chong-kim-doing-nothing-makes-you-part-of-the-problem/
http://secretlifeofamanhattancallgirl.wordpress.com/2012/02/23/terrible-beauty-survivor-angel-k-on-prostitution-the-inadequacy-of-language/
But then I got to the part where one of these survivors starts going on about how
sex-workers non-profit organisations all over the place are infiltrated by pimps and madames who are out to get the real survivors, who know and want to tell the world that what they experienced is the only kind of sex-work there is. And my Reality Calibrator TM went to yellow alert. Let me reassert: the personal stories of terrible woe and sordid evil rang overwhelmingly true, but when it got to the generalisations, I became somehow suspicious.
http://survivorsconnect.wordpress.com/tag/bedford/
That survivor is particularly upset (among several others) about someone she calls an admitted pimp, Maggie McNeill.
This person also hates Maggie:
http://secretlifeofamanhattancallgirl.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/our-bonds-are-just-too-strong-for-you/
ANd here's awful Maggie herself: Articulate, reasoned, at ease.
https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/ad-scortum/#comment-22722
Articulate, reasoned, at ease. I found not a hint of paranoia, a level-headed person who is OK with herself. Someone personally important once told me: you are basically okay if you know what compromises you have made, and you are basically okay with them.
There are others on her side, too. I clicked around some more.
Then I remembered that a few years ago I spent a couple of hours lurking around a Hungarian site which is like a "product forum" for Johns (not linking, it's in Hungarian), where the "service providers" also posted frequently. They all seemed to be self-employed, without pimp or panderer. Among the punters, the utmost, somewhat stuffy and boring politesse was the norm, various entirely uncrude code-words were used for the various sex acts on offer and the whole board was almost victorian in its verbal prudery - while discussing sex all the time. The women put up photos about themselves, clothed and naked, about two thirds photoshopped their faces out, the rest did not. The Johns didn't put up photos, but had a functioning reputation network running and often wrote reports about their "visits" shortly afterwards: it seemed that peer approval of their little reviews was pretty important to them.
Now you may think that this is gross or perverse or kind of sinister or just plain sad (is what I think), but it is very different to the scene Roger described. Oh, and many of the women were in their thirties and forties, some in their fifties.
*******
I decided I had enough empirical evidence. Maybe not enough for you, but enough for me. I just started thinking again.
It is, I suppose, possible, that one or the other of these two groups, obviously pitted in a struggle which to my shamefully uncompassionate eyes seems to have the characteristics of a power-struggle, is lying. Or, in the case of the survivors, I would rather expect them to have gone through their own very terrible hells and come out scarred, seeing what they have been through everywhere they look. Some of them sometimes seem to agree that to some extent this is going on. But I think the most likely scenario is this:
There are actually many distinct ways of getting into sex work. If we arrange those along the dimension of "quality of worker experience" or "job satisfaction", I would not be surprised to find two sorts of typical stories (among many totally amazing different ones). They are at the two ends of the scale. The bottom end are people I shall call Sex-Work PrincessesTM in Roger's honour. The paradigmatic stories there are even worse than that OP: Sex-WOrk Princesses usually come from majorly disfunctional families, are often abused first by their own families, or they grew up institutionalised, without a family at all, and as they turn sexual (from the very onset of puberty) their abuse turns sexual. And then it is commercialised by evil, violent and dangerous people, with all the unpleasant consequences like Stockholm Syndrome and drug addiction... I am sure their survival statistics are pretty dire.
And at the other end of the scale there are the Happy HookersTM. These are women who had relatively less dangerous and unpredicable, but certainly not particularly loving childhood homes, but only started prostitution after their sexual awakening, either as self-employed people or in a well-regulated and clean part of the industry such as the one that was described above (which, to me, is also spooky as fuck, but I think there's not much in the way of worker exploitation going on). Also, despite their name, they are probably rarely happy about having the job they do, but they are sort of "under the circumstances" satisfied: compared to any other way they could make money, this sort of work comes out the best for them. I'm sure many of them make mistakes, overtake boundaries they later regret, and I would expect their prospects to be worse than the average. Though I wouldn't be surprised if at least a few were actually prudent enough to plan for their later years.
I would not want to hazard a guess as to the proportions of these main types. I expect they vary a great deal with locale: perhaps the city where Roger's experience is from is in general not the most liberal and human-rights-conscious neighbourhood in the world? But my sense of reality tells me that Happy HookersTM are unlikely to be unicornish outliers. And I don't know what to think of the terrible things that the other group suffered. How prevalent is it, really? Also, if this were true, it stands to reason that there would be very little contact between the two types of sex-work. On the one hand, totally exploitative trafficking, which is essentially the enslavement of children for financial gain, which is pretty awful, though the sex thing does make it a great deal awfuler. On the other hand, sex workers who provide a service to gentlemen (and women? I have no idea, really) or film-studios because, as with-it and competent adults, choose to do this.
But Roger needs his drama.
********
So then I come back to the forum after 25 hours of expert reports about the malfunctions of motorway bridges, cantilever finger joints, mostly, to find, as expected, a new line of insults just waiting to be delivered. This was the most stringent, it brought tears to my eyes:
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
So because not every job is THE MOST INTERESTING THING EVER and it's hard to come by business sometimes, you're life is just like that of a prostitute. Really? Do you realize how much of a spoiled brat that makes you sound like? Reminds me of a friend that I got a job with/for me, filing papers. She was genuinely disappointed that the job was not as interesting as she had imagined it. Well no shit, sherlock! :lulz: Filing probably isn't going to be...whatever the hell she thought it would be (I find it relaxing).
Most cases my boss deals with aren't terribly exciting, some can be quite depressing. On top of that sometimes there are deadlines and I get pretty stressed. Sometimes I have to deal with assholes or mentally unstable (or both) people rambling, ranting or screaming at me. Sometimes certain things do wear on me. But yet, I am not abused or degraded (someone may yell at me, but I certainly don't have to go anywhere near their disgusting, horrible bodies and can call the police should things get out of had - haven't had to in the 10 years I've been doing this, and it's highly unlikely). I haven't picked up some terrible drug addiction that traps me in this work. And I am perfectly safe to seek out other career options without fear of being hurt or killed, even if I might have to tighten the budget for a while.
Not to mention, I deal and have dealt with several court reporters/stenographers/interpreters and yes, even some translators. And well, rather than continuing on, let's just say, I wouldn't compare their situations as anything close to a sex worker's. Business sometimes slow/uninteresting? Yes, but that's where any comparison ends, FAR from any real similarity. Did you even read Cain's post on narrowness?
17 years eh? Sounds like plenty of time to evaluate your life and make some long-term goals about a career change. But that would require actual effort right? Or is the big translator pimp going to come and kill you if you decide to quit? What's soul crushing, is pathetic lazy fucks like you that don't want to do any actual work to earn a living and blame everyone else around them for their lack of enjoyment.
Well you know, I'm gonna have to take this one bit by bit.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
So because not every job is THE MOST INTERESTING THING EVER and it's hard to come by business sometimes, you're life is just like that of a prostitute. Really?
Nope. It isn't. I didn't think it was, so I fail to see why you hold that against me.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
Do you realize how much of a spoiled brat that makes you sound like?
No, I don't. But hang on, hey, the thing you are referring to with "that" is my belief that my life is just like that of a prostitute. Which does not exist, right? So you are making me sound like a spoiled brat by lyin'! That's character defamation, that is!!
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
Reminds me of a friend that I got a job with/for me, filing papers. She was genuinely disappointed that the job was not as interesting as she had imagined it. Well no shit, sherlock! :lulz: Filing probably isn't going to be...whatever the hell she thought it would be (I find it relaxing).
You remind me of a friend also. Jumped to conclusions, that girl.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
Most cases my boss deals with aren't terribly exciting, some can be quite depressing. On top of that sometimes there are deadlines and I get pretty stressed. Sometimes I have to deal with assholes or mentally unstable (or both) people rambling, ranting or screaming at me. Sometimes certain things do wear on me.
Wanna, like, hang out and bitch?
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
But yet, I am not abused or degraded (someone may yell at me, but I certainly don't have to go anywhere near their disgusting, horrible bodies
I am certainly glad to hear that. I am also one of the lucky few.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
and can call the police should things get out of had - haven't had to in the 10 years I've been doing this, and it's highly unlikely).
I haven't picked up some terrible drug addiction that traps me in this work. And I am perfectly safe to seek out other career options without fear of being hurt or killed, even if I might have to tighten the budget for a while.
Okay, okay, you are not a Sex-WOrk PrincessTM. Neither am I. Let's start a club.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
Not to mention, I deal and have dealt with several court reporters/stenographers/interpreters and yes, even some translators. And well, rather than continuing on, let's just say, I wouldn't compare their situations as anything close to a sex worker's.
I'm not going to wise you up on the economic differences between Eastern Europe and the States. On the one hand, it is much harder here, on the other, you are perfectly right, I have it incomparably better than even a pretty settled Happy HookerTM, and anyway, I'm not complaining. But there are undeniable parallels, which I even numbered. Did anyone care? No. Boo-hoo.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
Business sometimes slow/uninteresting? Yes, but that's where any comparison ends,
well no, is listed them before: irregular working hours (hell, days, weeks!), no job security, no collective representation, dog-eat-dog price wars in which the freelancers predictably lose out to the exploiters (the large agencies who run several dozen freelancers), no pension (I for one can't afford one, but of course my kids are my pension - but many of the translators I know survive month to month without any reserves), the temptation to self-exploitation - very clearly, nothing like the life of Sex-WOrk Princesses and by and large a great deal better than that of sex-workers (though I am sure some hookers wouldn't trade places, and most of them are not qualified, sad truth is). No health insurance.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
FAR from any real similarity.
Well quite. Actually, it seems to me my work and their work is actually wanting in many of the same areas. Theirs tends to want a great deal more.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
Did you even read Cain's post on narrowness?
yes, great observation. I should have started the "what makes work good or bad" thread. I realise now.
*****
AND THEN, AFTER GETTING ALL HET UP:
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
17 years eh? Sounds like plenty of time to evaluate your life and make some long-term goals about a career change. But that would require actual effort right? Or is the big translator pimp going to come and kill you if you decide to quit? What's soul crushing, is pathetic lazy fucks like you that don't want to do any actual work to earn a living and blame everyone else around them for their lack of enjoyment.
Hey, you know what? Fuck you, too. Sugarpuff.
I give up.
I love you, Rog!
Quote from: holist on September 27, 2012, 11:38:44 PM
I love you, Rog!
You know, Holist, the whole "FIGHTING TEH POWER and takin' Roger down" thing gets really, really fucking old after a while. And by old, I mean "boring". I mean, really, really boring. You're about the 500th special snowflake to come along and develop some kind of weird fucking obsession with me.
Also:
QuoteBUT IN THE MEANTIME, I've been thinking about this subject and about this community
a lot, and my conclusion is a sneaking suspicion that you, Roger, may perhaps be a
teeny bit of a disaster tourist.
Suck the peanuts out of my shit, pilgrim. Seriously, that tells me everything I need to know about you.
QuoteBut my sense of reality tells me that Happy HookersTM are unlikely to be unicornish outliers.
That's because you're an entitled, privileged piece of shit with no connections to anything resembling reality.
Quote from: holist on September 27, 2012, 11:38:44 PM
Hey, you know what? Fuck you, too. Sugarpuff.
And here's the root of Holist's support of prostitution. He's a misogynist.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 12:32:05 AM
Quote from: holist on September 27, 2012, 11:38:44 PM
Hey, you know what? Fuck you, too. Sugarpuff.
And here's the root of Holist's support of prostitution. He's a misogynist.
Hell, I just figured it was the only way he could get any.
Quote from: Luna on September 28, 2012, 12:46:36 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 12:32:05 AM
Quote from: holist on September 27, 2012, 11:38:44 PM
Hey, you know what? Fuck you, too. Sugarpuff.
And here's the root of Holist's support of prostitution. He's a misogynist.
Hell, I just figured it was the only way he could get any.
Well, if you actually read his post (I did, for the humor value), he goes on and on about how the pimps "seem reasonable".
Which is a level of squick that puts him somewhere between Todd Akin and Babylon Horuv.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 12:49:24 AM
Quote from: Luna on September 28, 2012, 12:46:36 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 12:32:05 AM
Quote from: holist on September 27, 2012, 11:38:44 PM
Hey, you know what? Fuck you, too. Sugarpuff.
And here's the root of Holist's support of prostitution. He's a misogynist.
Hell, I just figured it was the only way he could get any.
Well, if you actually read his post (I did, for the humor value), he goes on and on about how the pimps "seem reasonable".
Which is a level of squick that puts him somewhere between Todd Akin and Babylon Horuv.
Couldn't be bothered to give it half the attention that I give to posts from actual bipeds.
Or from n00bs, for that matter.
QuoteBut my sense of reality tells me that Happy HookersTM are unlikely to be unicornish outliers.
QuoteBut my sense of reality tells me that Happy HookersTM are unlikely to be unicornish outliers.
QuoteBut my sense of reality tells me that Happy HookersTM are unlikely to be unicornish outliers.
QuoteBut my sense of reality tells me that Happy HookersTM are unlikely to be unicornish outliers.
Wow. I can't even describe how awful you look right now.
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 27, 2012, 08:34:11 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 11:41:34 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 11:30:18 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 11:09:45 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 10:50:50 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 09:36:41 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 04:14:32 PM
Quote from: Pixie on September 26, 2012, 04:00:52 PM
No real understanding of the reality of sex work?
There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.
I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.
How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?
As I mentioned before, in apparently yet another portion of the thread you couldn't be bothered to read, I don't need to read such a blog, particularly, because I did that myself. And dated a stripper. And know people in sex work. Furthermore I am extremely sex-positive, as are most of my friends who have worked/still work in the sex industry. I'm not exactly a "Virtuous Woman™", although I am a woman of many virtues.
So wait, what was your point?
So, your experience and circle of friends is all the anecdotal evidence anyone could ever need and maybe you could just issue proclamations on the topic? Why didn't you just say so?
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 09:46:30 PM
One word I think is really significant when we're talking about the sex industry is the word "industry".
If people make a video for their own exhibitionist pleasure and post it online, if it's not about profit, there's no industry. Just exhibitionism. When I get bored taking the train downtown I send upskirt shots to my boy du jour. Not industry. Just sex. Not relevant to this conversation, any more than a woman making love to her husband in the privacy of their bedroom is relevant to this conversation.
I'm just hoping that nobody else will bring up that particular red herring AGAIN.
Speaking of red herrings, I thought the topic was porn, not the sex industry. But, hey, since I don't have my Discordian topic secret decoder ring yet, I'll take your word for it.
Thanks for being dismissive about my perspective coming from the exact angle you suggested people read a blog to get perspective on.
And no, the topic, originally, was prostitution, and this thread split, specifically, includes "wage" in the title. This topic is about sex for money, not sex for fun. Pornography can be fun, both in the making and the consuming, and it can be non-exploitative in reality as well as in theory. The porn INDUSTRY is a subset of pornography, and that's the one people are talking about here, which is why the alienation and wage slave sub-topic came up.
I still don't believe you read the early pages of the other thread, because all of this was spelled out quite clearly there.
I actually never suggested people read a blog to get perspective on it. I was critical of that point. But, you are right that I shouldn't be dismissive, but from my view, I'm giving a little of what you are giving me.
You didn't? What did you mean when you said the bolded, below?
Quote from: Ayotollah of Assehollah on September 26, 2012, 04:14:32 PM
Quote from: Pixie on September 26, 2012, 04:00:52 PM
No real understanding of the reality of sex work?
There are a metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars, they aren't that hard to find.
I just think you don't WANT to see the reality of the situation.
How easy is it to see the parts of porn that are alright when you are viewing it through a "metric boatload of blogs and testimonies from ex-prostitutes and porn stars"? Ever read a "I dabbled in porn and it didn't leave me irrevocably damaged" blog? How about the "I worked in a strip club to pay for college" blog? Because the now successful lawyers and moms want to highlight this information in a world that would stigmatize them if they were to find out about this part of their lives?
I replied to the bolded by saying that I don't really feel I need to read someone else's blog, since that was my own experience and it, naturally, helps inform my perspective.
Quote
As was pointed out, it is questionable whether there really is something different going on here, and I have proceeded as if there isn't. Maybe I'm wrong, yet again.
I'll read the whole OP thread again. I don't have time at the moment, but in the next few days. I had read the first few pages and than continued reading the thread a few days later, so maybe it all become a jumbled mess in my mind. If I missed as badly as you say, I'll be embarrassed and apologize. Fair enough?
Sure. But when I suggested you do this before, in the other thread, while it was still fairly manageably small, you got snarky on me, so I'm skeptical now.
From the context, I think it is clear that I'm saying these blogs don't actually exist partly because of the danger to the author's reputation, pointing to a selection bias and only getting one part of the story? Maybe not.
I serendipitously came across this yesterday, which I thought would be interesting to add:
"The production manager printed out a copy of each performer's page in the APHSS database. I signed my own copy and James's, indicating that my results were mine and accurate and that I had seen James's and was comfortable working with him and his clean test which had been taken less than 14 days prior. He did the same. Then the production manager performed an inspection. He looked in our mouths, at both sides of our hands, and at our genitals to make sure there were no visible sores or open wounds. There was another paper to sign stating that we have no sores or open wounds on or in our mouths, hands, and genitals and had been inspected. We also looked at each others genitals, mostly for fun but if either of us had seen (or smelled) something odd we would have called off the scene ourselves...We were able to have fun, uninhibited sex with each other without a condom because we both knew that the chances of either of us being infected with an STD are very low. Far lower than, say, a stranger at a bar or a person who hasn't been tested in a year or more. Our frequent STD testing, the APHSS database (and AIM before them), and the skin inspections are self-imposed."
http://stoya.tumblr.com/post/32205235912/testing-vs-condoms-in-pornography (http://stoya.tumblr.com/post/32205235912/testing-vs-condoms-in-pornography)
I'm not sure how comfortable I'd be with a visual inspection and sniff test, but then again, I probably couldn't tell a herpes lesion from an ass pimple anyway (sheltered life, I guess). I think what I found even more interesting given the context of this PD discussion is how often she uses the word "fun", four times. It doesn't negate was is being said here, but it is definitely a very different picture of working conditions and exploitation than what Roger's OP was painting.
From the context, I am thinking "Has this motherfucker ever had an online discussion in his fucking life?" and also "is this really the only point he was capable of making after quoting a mile of previous conversation, then quoting an unrelated yet entirely horrifying account of a completely inadequate "health inspection" from the porn industry?"
Holist, this may should seem ridiculously obvious to the point that it nearly goes without saying, but when you have primary providers (former prostitutes) speaking out against an industry they were in, they not only have no financial gain from doing so, but also the high probability of financial handicap. When you have current facilitating managers (madams/pimps) in that same industry refuting those who are speaking against it, they have a vested financial interest in the industry. One group has not only power, but also financial interest, and the other group has no power and no financial interest. An impartial investigator, therefore, has to consider those variables.
I just wanted to quote this bit of confirmation bias for posterity:
Quote from: holist on September 27, 2012, 11:38:44 PM
[elide Roger fanboiism]
But then I got to the part where one of these survivors starts going on about how
sex-workers non-profit organisations all over the place are infiltrated by pimps and madames who are out to get the real survivors, who know and want to tell the world that what they experienced is the only kind of sex-work there is. And my Reality Calibrator TM went to yellow alert. Let me reassert: the personal stories of terrible woe and sordid evil rang overwhelmingly true, but when it got to the generalisations, I became somehow suspicious.
http://survivorsconnect.wordpress.com/tag/bedford/
That survivor is particularly upset (among several others) about someone she calls an admitted pimp, Maggie McNeill.
This person also hates Maggie:
http://secretlifeofamanhattancallgirl.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/our-bonds-are-just-too-strong-for-you/
ANd here's awful Maggie herself: Articulate, reasoned, at ease.
https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/ad-scortum/#comment-22722
Articulate, reasoned, at ease. I found not a hint of paranoia, a level-headed person who is OK with herself. Someone personally important once told me: you are basically okay if you know what compromises you have made, and you are basically okay with them.
There are others on her side, too. I clicked around some more.
Then I remembered that a few years ago I spent a couple of hours lurking around a Hungarian site which is like a "product forum" for Johns (not linking, it's in Hungarian), where the "service providers" also posted frequently. They all seemed to be self-employed, without pimp or panderer. Among the punters, the utmost, somewhat stuffy and boring politesse was the norm, various entirely uncrude code-words were used for the various sex acts on offer and the whole board was almost victorian in its verbal prudery - while discussing sex all the time. The women put up photos about themselves, clothed and naked, about two thirds photoshopped their faces out, the rest did not. The Johns didn't put up photos, but had a functioning reputation network running and often wrote reports about their "visits" shortly afterwards: it seemed that peer approval of their little reviews was pretty important to them.
Now you may think that this is gross or perverse or kind of sinister or just plain sad (is what I think), but it is very different to the scene Roger described. Oh, and many of the women were in their thirties and forties, some in their fifties.
*******
I decided I had enough empirical evidence. Maybe not enough for you, but enough for me. I just started thinking again.
It is, I suppose, possible, that one or the other of these two groups, obviously pitted in a struggle which to my shamefully uncompassionate eyes seems to have the characteristics of a power-struggle, is lying. Or, in the case of the survivors, I would rather expect them to have gone through their own very terrible hells and come out scarred, seeing what they have been through everywhere they look. Some of them sometimes seem to agree that to some extent this is going on. But I think the most likely scenario is this:
There are actually many distinct ways of getting into sex work. If we arrange those along the dimension of "quality of worker experience" or "job satisfaction", I would not be surprised to find two sorts of typical stories (among many totally amazing different ones). They are at the two ends of the scale. The bottom end are people I shall call Sex-Work PrincessesTM in Roger's honour. The paradigmatic stories there are even worse than that OP: Sex-WOrk Princesses usually come from majorly disfunctional families, are often abused first by their own families, or they grew up institutionalised, without a family at all, and as they turn sexual (from the very onset of puberty) their abuse turns sexual. And then it is commercialised by evil, violent and dangerous people, with all the unpleasant consequences like Stockholm Syndrome and drug addiction... I am sure their survival statistics are pretty dire.
And at the other end of the scale there are the Happy HookersTM. These are women who had relatively less dangerous and unpredicable, but certainly not particularly loving childhood homes, but only started prostitution after their sexual awakening, either as self-employed people or in a well-regulated and clean part of the industry such as the one that was described above (which, to me, is also spooky as fuck, but I think there's not much in the way of worker exploitation going on). Also, despite their name, they are probably rarely happy about having the job they do, but they are sort of "under the circumstances" satisfied: compared to any other way they could make money, this sort of work comes out the best for them. I'm sure many of them make mistakes, overtake boundaries they later regret, and I would expect their prospects to be worse than the average. Though I wouldn't be surprised if at least a few were actually prudent enough to plan for their later years.
I would not want to hazard a guess as to the proportions of these main types. I expect they vary a great deal with locale: perhaps the city where Roger's experience is from is in general not the most liberal and human-rights-conscious neighbourhood in the world? But my sense of reality tells me that Happy HookersTM are unlikely to be unicornish outliers. And I don't know what to think of the terrible things that the other group suffered. How prevalent is it, really? Also, if this were true, it stands to reason that there would be very little contact between the two types of sex-work. On the one hand, totally exploitative trafficking, which is essentially the enslavement of children for financial gain, which is pretty awful, though the sex thing does make it a great deal awfuler. On the other hand, sex workers who provide a service to gentlemen (and women? I have no idea, really) or film-studios because, as with-it and competent adults, choose to do this.
It basically boils down to "I don't WAN'T the sex industry that I enjoy to be exploitative/bad, so I'll just buy into a convenient commercially-driven reality in which it's GOOD."
Also, the weird side-justification that some of the prostitutes are older? What is that, exactly?
Relevant for similarity to this discussion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR6Cw_3q1Pg&feature=share (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR6Cw_3q1Pg&feature=share)
Quote from: v3x on September 28, 2012, 07:06:51 AM
Relevant for similarity to this discussion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR6Cw_3q1Pg&feature=share (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR6Cw_3q1Pg&feature=share)
Hahahahaha what the SHIT?
:lulz:
can someone make that video into a gif emote?
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 06:50:31 AM
Holist, this may should seem ridiculously obvious to the point that it nearly goes without saying, but when you have primary providers (former prostitutes) speaking out against an industry they were in, they not only have no financial gain from doing so, but also the high probability of financial handicap. When you have current facilitating managers (madams/pimps) in that same industry refuting those who are speaking against it, they have a vested financial interest in the industry. One group has not only power, but also financial interest, and the other group has no power and no financial interest. An impartial investigator, therefore, has to consider those variables.
On top of that, I think it's to be expected that a person who professionally exploits others to provide themselves with a comfortable life will have rationalized and justified their line of work to themselves to the point that in their head, it all totally makes sense and they are fine with themselves. The same applies even to people whose work involves regular brutal violence and murder.
On the other hand, their victims will be traumatized and tend to seem less stable.
It doesn't make much sense to judge people in that kind of situation primarily by their own view of themselves and their experience.
And one more thing, Holist:
I used to think basically what you stated – that there are miserably abused prostitutes and well-off, independent, empowered ones, and that the two are very separate from one another.
Then I read a post, a while back, from an Israeli ex-prostitute who described the kind of self-exploitation trap you keep mentioning. Basically, at first she was independent, empowered, and making ridiculous amounts of money as a classy call girl. She got addicted to the easy money, and things started spiraling down from there. In the end, she was on all kinds of drugs, abused and demolished as a person.
And that's kinda what Roger's Porn Princess story is about, really: the two groups you describe are in many (most?) cases two different stages in the same process, not two separate worlds with little contact between them. The "Happy Hooker" is just a Sex-Work Princess in the making. The ones who aren't are quite possibly unicorns.
And we've already discussed to death what makes it so difficult and unlikely for a Princess to cut her losses and quit while she's ahead, so I'm not gonna belabor that again.
Also, the stories that end up online are not going to be a representative sample, you know.
If you can't see how ridiculous/disgusting you're being, Holist, maybe you should, again, step back, and take time to think over what you wrote in that post in light of the replies. And by step back and think I don't mean between drug-addled work marathons. Wait till you have a free half hour and take some time to actually just think about it, without work, writing, or distraction. Having that kind of time is a privilege, but so is participating in online discussions, so you can evidently afford it.
Quote from: holist on September 27, 2012, 11:38:44 PM
Sorry to miss out on all the fun, been... working. about 25 hours in the last 33.
Had to do drugs to handle it, now I need to work more. Entitled ain't all it's
trumped up to be, sometimes.
***
BUT IN THE MEANTIME, I've been thinking about this subject and about this community
a lot, and my conclusion is a sneaking suspicion that you, Roger, may perhaps be a
teeny bit of a disaster tourist. So I'd like to shake your hand.
***
A Description of the Journey that Got Me There
So there I was, minding my own business...
...getting irate with Roger and Nigel and LMNO and v3x and a few others i'm sure ...
but, you know, in my good own time, hippie-ing along with the flow, indulging in
baboonery like only i know how (though very similarly to most everyone, at a guess),
thinking to myself, hey, much as i'd love to give it up, there'd be no point in
trying to force it, 'cos much as i do wish I walked away from them dead horses, it
would do me no good if I did so against my better judgment...
... much as I'd love to get up on me hind feet, if it doesn't come naturally
I may fall over and break my tail... a fat lot of good that would do me...
...thinking about how to get around this problem and getting nowhere with it (I'm
sure you know the feeling), collecting equitable share of enmity like wild flowers
in a meadow as is my wont, when, ALL OF A SUDDEN...
Pixie struck with the blog of the "Free Irish Woman" trafficking/prostitution
survivor. So I went there and started to read her story.
It was gutwrenching, I almost threw up on my computer, and I'm pretty scared of
vomiting.
It was very hard to keep reading, and I almost immediately started looking for
something to suggest it wasn't real. But I kept reading, and then moved onto the
survivor community page, then read maybe two more stories by others, and my feeble
attempt at denial was blown away: this was undoubtedly real. These stories. These traumas.
You can retrace my steps, if you like:
http://theprostitutionexperience.com/?p=148
http://theprostitutionexperience.com/?p=173
http://theprostitutionexperience.com/?p=15
http://survivorsconnect.wordpress.com/
http://survivorsconnect.wordpress.com/2012/03/27/chong-kim-doing-nothing-makes-you-part-of-the-problem/
http://secretlifeofamanhattancallgirl.wordpress.com/2012/02/23/terrible-beauty-survivor-angel-k-on-prostitution-the-inadequacy-of-language/
But then I got to the part where one of these survivors starts going on about how
sex-workers non-profit organisations all over the place are infiltrated by pimps and madames who are out to get the real survivors, who know and want to tell the world that what they experienced is the only kind of sex-work there is. And my Reality Calibrator TM went to yellow alert. Let me reassert: the personal stories of terrible woe and sordid evil rang overwhelmingly true, but when it got to the generalisations, I became somehow suspicious.
http://survivorsconnect.wordpress.com/tag/bedford/
That survivor is particularly upset (among several others) about someone she calls an admitted pimp, Maggie McNeill.
This person also hates Maggie:
http://secretlifeofamanhattancallgirl.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/our-bonds-are-just-too-strong-for-you/
ANd here's awful Maggie herself: Articulate, reasoned, at ease.
https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/ad-scortum/#comment-22722
Articulate, reasoned, at ease. I found not a hint of paranoia, a level-headed person who is OK with herself. Someone personally important once told me: you are basically okay if you know what compromises you have made, and you are basically okay with them.
There are others on her side, too. I clicked around some more.
Then I remembered that a few years ago I spent a couple of hours lurking around a Hungarian site which is like a "product forum" for Johns (not linking, it's in Hungarian), where the "service providers" also posted frequently. They all seemed to be self-employed, without pimp or panderer. Among the punters, the utmost, somewhat stuffy and boring politesse was the norm, various entirely uncrude code-words were used for the various sex acts on offer and the whole board was almost victorian in its verbal prudery - while discussing sex all the time. The women put up photos about themselves, clothed and naked, about two thirds photoshopped their faces out, the rest did not. The Johns didn't put up photos, but had a functioning reputation network running and often wrote reports about their "visits" shortly afterwards: it seemed that peer approval of their little reviews was pretty important to them.
Now you may think that this is gross or perverse or kind of sinister or just plain sad (is what I think), but it is very different to the scene Roger described. Oh, and many of the women were in their thirties and forties, some in their fifties.
*******
I decided I had enough empirical evidence. Maybe not enough for you, but enough for me. I just started thinking again.
It is, I suppose, possible, that one or the other of these two groups, obviously pitted in a struggle which to my shamefully uncompassionate eyes seems to have the characteristics of a power-struggle, is lying. Or, in the case of the survivors, I would rather expect them to have gone through their own very terrible hells and come out scarred, seeing what they have been through everywhere they look. Some of them sometimes seem to agree that to some extent this is going on. But I think the most likely scenario is this:
There are actually many distinct ways of getting into sex work. If we arrange those along the dimension of "quality of worker experience" or "job satisfaction", I would not be surprised to find two sorts of typical stories (among many totally amazing different ones). They are at the two ends of the scale. The bottom end are people I shall call Sex-Work PrincessesTM in Roger's honour. The paradigmatic stories there are even worse than that OP: Sex-WOrk Princesses usually come from majorly disfunctional families, are often abused first by their own families, or they grew up institutionalised, without a family at all, and as they turn sexual (from the very onset of puberty) their abuse turns sexual. And then it is commercialised by evil, violent and dangerous people, with all the unpleasant consequences like Stockholm Syndrome and drug addiction... I am sure their survival statistics are pretty dire.
And at the other end of the scale there are the Happy HookersTM. These are women who had relatively less dangerous and unpredicable, but certainly not particularly loving childhood homes, but only started prostitution after their sexual awakening, either as self-employed people or in a well-regulated and clean part of the industry such as the one that was described above (which, to me, is also spooky as fuck, but I think there's not much in the way of worker exploitation going on). Also, despite their name, they are probably rarely happy about having the job they do, but they are sort of "under the circumstances" satisfied: compared to any other way they could make money, this sort of work comes out the best for them. I'm sure many of them make mistakes, overtake boundaries they later regret, and I would expect their prospects to be worse than the average. Though I wouldn't be surprised if at least a few were actually prudent enough to plan for their later years.
I would not want to hazard a guess as to the proportions of these main types. I expect they vary a great deal with locale: perhaps the city where Roger's experience is from is in general not the most liberal and human-rights-conscious neighbourhood in the world? But my sense of reality tells me that Happy HookersTM are unlikely to be unicornish outliers. And I don't know what to think of the terrible things that the other group suffered. How prevalent is it, really? Also, if this were true, it stands to reason that there would be very little contact between the two types of sex-work. On the one hand, totally exploitative trafficking, which is essentially the enslavement of children for financial gain, which is pretty awful, though the sex thing does make it a great deal awfuler. On the other hand, sex workers who provide a service to gentlemen (and women? I have no idea, really) or film-studios because, as with-it and competent adults, choose to do this.
But Roger needs his drama.
********
So then I come back to the forum after 25 hours of expert reports about the malfunctions of motorway bridges, cantilever finger joints, mostly, to find, as expected, a new line of insults just waiting to be delivered. This was the most stringent, it brought tears to my eyes:
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
So because not every job is THE MOST INTERESTING THING EVER and it's hard to come by business sometimes, you're life is just like that of a prostitute. Really? Do you realize how much of a spoiled brat that makes you sound like? Reminds me of a friend that I got a job with/for me, filing papers. She was genuinely disappointed that the job was not as interesting as she had imagined it. Well no shit, sherlock! :lulz: Filing probably isn't going to be...whatever the hell she thought it would be (I find it relaxing).
Most cases my boss deals with aren't terribly exciting, some can be quite depressing. On top of that sometimes there are deadlines and I get pretty stressed. Sometimes I have to deal with assholes or mentally unstable (or both) people rambling, ranting or screaming at me. Sometimes certain things do wear on me. But yet, I am not abused or degraded (someone may yell at me, but I certainly don't have to go anywhere near their disgusting, horrible bodies and can call the police should things get out of had - haven't had to in the 10 years I've been doing this, and it's highly unlikely). I haven't picked up some terrible drug addiction that traps me in this work. And I am perfectly safe to seek out other career options without fear of being hurt or killed, even if I might have to tighten the budget for a while.
Not to mention, I deal and have dealt with several court reporters/stenographers/interpreters and yes, even some translators. And well, rather than continuing on, let's just say, I wouldn't compare their situations as anything close to a sex worker's. Business sometimes slow/uninteresting? Yes, but that's where any comparison ends, FAR from any real similarity. Did you even read Cain's post on narrowness?
17 years eh? Sounds like plenty of time to evaluate your life and make some long-term goals about a career change. But that would require actual effort right? Or is the big translator pimp going to come and kill you if you decide to quit? What's soul crushing, is pathetic lazy fucks like you that don't want to do any actual work to earn a living and blame everyone else around them for their lack of enjoyment.
Well you know, I'm gonna have to take this one bit by bit.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
So because not every job is THE MOST INTERESTING THING EVER and it's hard to come by business sometimes, you're life is just like that of a prostitute. Really?
Nope. It isn't. I didn't think it was, so I fail to see why you hold that against me.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
Do you realize how much of a spoiled brat that makes you sound like?
No, I don't. But hang on, hey, the thing you are referring to with "that" is my belief that my life is just like that of a prostitute. Which does not exist, right? So you are making me sound like a spoiled brat by lyin'! That's character defamation, that is!!
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
Reminds me of a friend that I got a job with/for me, filing papers. She was genuinely disappointed that the job was not as interesting as she had imagined it. Well no shit, sherlock! :lulz: Filing probably isn't going to be...whatever the hell she thought it would be (I find it relaxing).
You remind me of a friend also. Jumped to conclusions, that girl.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
Most cases my boss deals with aren't terribly exciting, some can be quite depressing. On top of that sometimes there are deadlines and I get pretty stressed. Sometimes I have to deal with assholes or mentally unstable (or both) people rambling, ranting or screaming at me. Sometimes certain things do wear on me.
Wanna, like, hang out and bitch?
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
But yet, I am not abused or degraded (someone may yell at me, but I certainly don't have to go anywhere near their disgusting, horrible bodies
I am certainly glad to hear that. I am also one of the lucky few.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
and can call the police should things get out of had - haven't had to in the 10 years I've been doing this, and it's highly unlikely).
I haven't picked up some terrible drug addiction that traps me in this work. And I am perfectly safe to seek out other career options without fear of being hurt or killed, even if I might have to tighten the budget for a while.
Okay, okay, you are not a Sex-WOrk PrincessTM. Neither am I. Let's start a club.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
Not to mention, I deal and have dealt with several court reporters/stenographers/interpreters and yes, even some translators. And well, rather than continuing on, let's just say, I wouldn't compare their situations as anything close to a sex worker's.
I'm not going to wise you up on the economic differences between Eastern Europe and the States. On the one hand, it is much harder here, on the other, you are perfectly right, I have it incomparably better than even a pretty settled Happy HookerTM, and anyway, I'm not complaining. But there are undeniable parallels, which I even numbered. Did anyone care? No. Boo-hoo.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
Business sometimes slow/uninteresting? Yes, but that's where any comparison ends,
well no, is listed them before: irregular working hours (hell, days, weeks!), no job security, no collective representation, dog-eat-dog price wars in which the freelancers predictably lose out to the exploiters (the large agencies who run several dozen freelancers), no pension (I for one can't afford one, but of course my kids are my pension - but many of the translators I know survive month to month without any reserves), the temptation to self-exploitation - very clearly, nothing like the life of Sex-WOrk Princesses and by and large a great deal better than that of sex-workers (though I am sure some hookers wouldn't trade places, and most of them are not qualified, sad truth is). No health insurance.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
FAR from any real similarity.
Well quite. Actually, it seems to me my work and their work is actually wanting in many of the same areas. Theirs tends to want a great deal more.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
Did you even read Cain's post on narrowness?
yes, great observation. I should have started the "what makes work good or bad" thread. I realise now.
*****
AND THEN, AFTER GETTING ALL HET UP:
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
17 years eh? Sounds like plenty of time to evaluate your life and make some long-term goals about a career change. But that would require actual effort right? Or is the big translator pimp going to come and kill you if you decide to quit? What's soul crushing, is pathetic lazy fucks like you that don't want to do any actual work to earn a living and blame everyone else around them for their lack of enjoyment.
Hey, you know what? Fuck you, too. Sugarpuff.
I give up.
I love you, Rog!
:tldr:
Quote from: v3x on September 28, 2012, 07:06:51 AM
Relevant for similarity to this discussion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR6Cw_3q1Pg&feature=share (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR6Cw_3q1Pg&feature=share)
Oh. My. God. I was having a pretty shitty morning, but things are only looking up from here :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Quote from: holist on September 27, 2012, 11:38:44 PM
well no, is listed them before: irregular working hours (hell, days, weeks!), no job security, no collective representation, dog-eat-dog price wars in which the freelancers predictably lose out to the exploiters (the large agencies who run several dozen freelancers), no pension (I for one can't afford one, but of course my kids are my pension - but many of the translators I know survive month to month without any reserves), the temptation to self-exploitation - very clearly, nothing like the life of Sex-WOrk Princesses and by and large a great deal better than that of sex-workers (though I am sure some hookers wouldn't trade places, and most of them are not qualified, sad truth is). No health insurance.
Right, I read all this (and/or similar complaints) before, and it still just sounds like "my job is sometimes difficult, boring and/or unstable. Therefore it is very similar to the degredation and harships that most sex-workers go through". You still sound like a spoiled brat. And while I don't know what it's like to live in Eastern Europe, the above issues are things that stenographers/interpreters/freelance workers of all sorts have to deal with, yet I'm sure the majority of them would not compare themselves to prostitutes or claim that what they do is as degrading as that. Hell, while I have some benefits here, if I wanted more, I could go get a corporate job, if I wanted more job security AND better benefits I could try to get a state job; if I even just wanted more money I could go work in/closer to Boston. Back before I had benefits, steady hours, etc. here, I nearly did quit to go work at a grocery store because I knew I'd have full time hours and benefits there. But, things worked out and as it stands, I'm happy where I am.
But I am also well aware that if I want to make a change in my circumstances, it's up to me to actually do something about it. Even when things were tough I never though "Oh noes! I'm living month to month, no health insurance, scrounging around living paycheck to paycheck and hey, I can't afford to live at this place anymore. This/these part time filing and part time cashier jobs are just as soul-crushing as letting random dudes shove things in various orifices for cash". I'm not saying you're not having a tough time of things, I'm just saying there's no comparison.
Quote from: holist on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
AND THEN, AFTER GETTING ALL HET UP:
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 26, 2012, 06:09:44 PM
17 years eh? Sounds like plenty of time to evaluate your life and make some long-term goals about a career change. But that would require actual effort right? Or is the big translator pimp going to come and kill you if you decide to quit? What's soul crushing, is pathetic lazy fucks like you that don't want to do any actual work to earn a living and blame everyone else around them for their lack of enjoyment.
Hey, you know what? Fuck you, too. Sugarpuff.
I give up.
I love you, Rog!
There, there. I know growing up's tough to do, but we all need to do it sometime. Like I said, it's not that I don't believe you're having a tough time of things - a lot of people are. There's just no comparison, that's all.
And I know reading comprehension is a bit difficult, but I'm not Roger.
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 28, 2012, 03:17:25 PM
And I know reading comprehension is a bit difficult, but I'm not Roger.
You don't have enough hair on your backside.
:lol:
That sounds like a challenge. Just give me a few days to raid some hair salon dumpsters, hire some weavers, and maybe glue on some chia
Holist, may I ask you a question?
Would you prefer that your daughter became a translator, or a prostitute? Can you explain your reasoning for your preference?
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 28, 2012, 03:17:25 PM
And I know reading comprehension is a bit difficult, but I'm not Roger.
That Assholist guy did the same thing.... quoted Roger, and then to show where Roger was being inconsistent he quoted me as we were the same person. :lol:
WHO'S SUFFERING FROM MIND LAZORS NOW!
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 06:41:40 AM
From the context, I am thinking "Has this motherfucker ever had an online discussion in his fucking life?" and also "is this really the only point he was capable of making after quoting a mile of previous conversation, then quoting an unrelated yet entirely horrifying account of a completely inadequate "health inspection" from the porn industry?"
I've gone through the Porn Princess thread up until the point you make this comment:
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 25, 2012, 12:41:17 AM
You clearly either missed a lot of posts, or don't understand what social theory is. There was an extensive conversation about it earlier in the thread.
Re-reading it, my sense of it is that you all were having a pretty nice circle-jerk, with an occasional counter-point from Hoopla and a few others to keep it, you know, reasonable, and then some fucking n00b (me) came in with his "special snowflake" commentary, followed by holist taking one minor point and running with it to maximum stupid, and then, the merits of anything I might be saying become more or less irrelevant. My points must be as stupid as what holist's, and who does this n00b think he is anyway?
I tried to be reasonable. Even packed off quite a bit, because there are a lot of good ideas here. But unfortunately, there is also a lot of sloppy thinking that is being justified by Discordian tropes, like "A conclusion is just where you stopped thinking," which I take to mean you should always try to take a fresh look rather than hey, let's come up with whatever bullshit we like and go with that.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 03:46:33 PM
Quote from: trippinprincezz13 on September 28, 2012, 03:17:25 PM
And I know reading comprehension is a bit difficult, but I'm not Roger.
That Assholist guy did the same thing.... quoted Roger, and then to show where Roger was being inconsistent he quoted me as we were the same person. :lol:
And in the one place where I pushed back even a little bit, you have Roger coming to your aid, "oh, watch it now!" and even when I quote you back to Roger, it becomes I'm conflating the two of you. You might want to re-read your posts and see how much you are doing the same with me and holist, because it's a lot.
But, the first comment quoted above is where I'd like to stop. Rather than acknowledge that hey, I read that wrong, you went straight onto the attack again. There's a person describing their situation and using words like "fun" and because you find it to be an "entirely horrifying account" it is irrelevant, even though it is a interesting counter-example. So, your commentary is an example of:
"Obviously, the faster we process information, the more rich and complex our models or glosses — our reality-tunnels — will become. Resistance to new information, however, has a strong neurological foundation in all animals, as indicated by studies of imprinting and conditioning. Most animals, including most domesticated primates (humans) show a truly staggering ability to "ignore" certain kinds of information — that which does not "fit" their imprinted/conditioned reality-tunnel." -RAW
So, you'll pardon me while I go look at some of the other threads on PD.com. There's a lot of excellent stuff here, some of which you've written, which I'd like to read. And, there's very little value to be had in continuing discussion here.
Quote from: Ayotollah of Ass on September 28, 2012, 04:04:28 PM
And in the one place where I pushed back even a little bit, you have Roger coming to your aid, "oh, watch it now!" and even when I quote you back to Roger, it becomes I'm conflating the two of you. You might want to re-read your posts and see how much you are doing the same with me and holist, because it's a lot.
There's no comparison between you and Holist. You are proposing arguments, and you at least look at what other people read. Holist is and has always been a prick.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 03:45:08 PM
Holist, may I ask you a question?
Would you prefer that your daughter became a translator, or a prostitute? Can you explain your reasoning for your preference?
From what I gather, he flounced again.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 04:40:52 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Ass on September 28, 2012, 04:04:28 PM
And in the one place where I pushed back even a little bit, you have Roger coming to your aid, "oh, watch it now!" and even when I quote you back to Roger, it becomes I'm conflating the two of you. You might want to re-read your posts and see how much you are doing the same with me and holist, because it's a lot.
There's no comparison between you and Holist. You are proposing arguments, and you at least look at what other people read. Holist is and has always been a prick.
Yes, Ayotolalh, I was enjoying your perspective, despite having some misgivings about how you were connecting ideas.
To elaborate a bit, there are a number of factors with the link you posted in which the person uses the word "fun" to describe various aspects of her porn experience, that I would like to discuss, but if I'm writing to dead air, I won't bother.
To show sincerity, though, I will give you an example: I noted that the word fun was used as an adjective for the sex itself (i.e. that sex without a condom is more "fun" than sex with a condom), or in cases like when they looked at each other's genitals "for fun", which doesn't necessarily that it was actually a fun experience, but that they were doing it despite the fact they really didn't have the ability to identify signs of STDs unless it was something obvious, to stave off boredom while they waited for the shoot to begin.
AA, I am still wondering what the point of quoting that account of "STD inspection" was. I am not saying that it was irrelevant, I am ASKING WHAT POINT YOU WERE TRYING TO MAKE, because as far as I can tell it is not a very good counterpoint, and in fact reinforces the impression of pornography as a terribly unsafe venture, health-wise. I am also hoping that you realize that what I mean by "horrifying" is that a visual inspection of the genitals, even by a medical expert, is completely inadequate as a screening for STDs. I mean, absolutely completely. It's somewhat analogous to looking at a person's tonsils to determine whether they have heart disease. The article itself comments on that.
So, what point, exactly, were you attempting to reinforce by quoting that excerpt? It seems to be a condemnation of the porn industry. Is that what you meant it to be?
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 07:53:27 PM
AA, I am still wondering what the point of quoting that account of "STD inspection" was. I am not saying that it was irrelevant, I am ASKING WHAT POINT YOU WERE TRYING TO MAKE, because as far as I can tell it is not a very good counterpoint, and in fact reinforces the impression of pornography as a terribly unsafe venture, health-wise. I am also hoping that you realize that what I mean by "horrifying" is that a visual inspection of the genitals, even by a medical expert, is completely inadequate as a screening for STDs. I mean, absolutely completely. It's somewhat analogous to looking at a person's tonsils to determine whether they have heart disease. The article itself comments on that.
So, what point, exactly, were you attempting to reinforce by quoting that excerpt? It seems to be a condemnation of the porn industry. Is that what you meant it to be?
"Here, Ms Porn star, take a gander at this guy's genitals! See, no sores. Everything's fine. Lube up your ass now, please."
That's like saying I should buy a car without opening the hood, because the paint job is okay.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 04:41:40 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 03:45:08 PM
Holist, may I ask you a question?
Would you prefer that your daughter became a translator, or a prostitute? Can you explain your reasoning for your preference?
From what I gather, he flounced again.
Like fuck I did! I do have a life, though. Might need another couple of hours before I get my mitts on a decent keyboard and collect my latest batch of reward. :-)
Quote from: holist on September 28, 2012, 08:55:57 PM
Like fuck I did! I do have a life, though.
Yep. Fapping to quackery/pseudoscience.
Whatever it takes, right?
Ok, against my better judgment, here it goes.
Quote from: Doktor D. Jennifer Phox on September 28, 2012, 04:53:43 PM
To show sincerity, though, I will give you an example: I noted that the word fun was used as an adjective for the sex itself (i.e. that sex without a condom is more "fun" than sex with a condom), or in cases like when they looked at each other's genitals "for fun", which doesn't necessarily that it was actually a fun experience, but that they were doing it despite the fact they really didn't have the ability to identify signs of STDs unless it was something obvious, to stave off boredom while they waited for the shoot to begin.
It's an interesting point. I'm going to start a new thread called "Soft paternalism, linguistic parsing and exploitation" using not porn examples (since we don't need a Porn Princess thread #3), and see if there is an interest in what I see as a categorical problem. If you want to talk about this specific example, I suppose it makes sense to do that here.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 07:53:27 PM
AA, I am still wondering what the point of quoting that account of "STD inspection" was. I am not saying that it was irrelevant, I am ASKING WHAT POINT YOU WERE TRYING TO MAKE, because as far as I can tell it is not a very good counterpoint, and in fact reinforces the impression of pornography as a terribly unsafe venture, health-wise. I am also hoping that you realize that what I mean by "horrifying" is that a visual inspection of the genitals, even by a medical expert, is completely inadequate as a screening for STDs. I mean, absolutely completely. It's somewhat analogous to looking at a person's tonsils to determine whether they have heart disease. The article itself comments on that.
So, what point, exactly, were you attempting to reinforce by quoting that excerpt? It seems to be a condemnation of the porn industry. Is that what you meant it to be?
I think it is a counter-example to Roger's OP's ideas of exploitation. As I said:
Quote from: Ayotollah of Ass on September 27, 2012, 08:34:11 PM
I think what I found even more interesting given the context of this PD discussion is how often she uses the word "fun", four times. It doesn't negate was is being said here, but it is definitely a very different picture of working conditions and exploitation than what Roger's OP was painting.
It's not just visual inspection. It's also blood tests. And, the process at least gives the appearance that there is concern from the people producing/directing that the people involved in the scene are all okay with what they are doing. Is it adequate, or more to the point, would I be comfortable with risking my health in this way? No. But, then again, I'm not the one whose ass is on the line. If they choose it to do it, why shouldn't someone else watch it?
And I think what bothers me most about this discussion is that many of you seem to be making moral claims about what people should or should not be doing, but at the same time, want to absolve yourself from the consequences that taking those positions might have outside your personal situation.
Let me be slightly unfair here. It's like saying: Hey, I don't think you should be hiring 6 year olds to work 16 hour days in a sweat shop to make clothing for The Gap. I don't buy clothes from Gap, and because practically every other apparel retailer out there might have sweat shop produced clothes from 6 year olds (let's assume its the industry standard or just acknowledge that there is no way to exclude the possibility), I don't feel comfortable buying clothes and personally have been making all of my clothes by hand using a spinning wheel. It's more "natural" for people to make their own clothes anyway.
I could get more ridiculous, but you see where I'm going with this line. Despite claims of reality, you seem to be dismissive of the real, legitimate needs for sex/sexual aids of real people. And some of it is also implausible, relative to a Playboy (which got a free pass) how much more exploitative are industry produced masturbation shots relative to the amateur created exhibitionist ones (which also got a free pass)? Are masturbation videos a gateway drug? All of which gets to what I have been trying to bring up from post one about levels of exploitation, defining what constitutes porn (where somewhere along this thread someone even tried to exclude exhibitionist stuff as "not porn"), etc. It all starts getting into some real nebulous stuff, real quick, and the temptation is to go with the easy answer, to just say no to all of it, just like we can all use the spinning wheel. But, it doesn't change the fact its either a cop-out or displays a surprising lack of sensitivity for the whole range of situations people can find themselves in during the course of their lives.
Quote from: Ayotollah of Ass on September 28, 2012, 08:58:16 PM
Despite claims of reality, you seem to be dismissive of the real, legitimate needs for sex/sexual aids of real people.
So, if someone has a "real, legitimate need" to slap people around, that's okay? I mean, I'm just trying to understand where ONE PERSON'S needs suddenly justificate exploitation of OTHER peoples' bodies.
Also, I have made a real effort to be civil with you, but you are being deliberately insulting and dismissive...talking about the
constant reitteration of "You People claim to seek reality, but". I think I'm done being civil, now. Enough is enough.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 09:04:26 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Ass on September 28, 2012, 08:58:16 PM
Despite claims of reality, you seem to be dismissive of the real, legitimate needs for sex/sexual aids of real people.
So, if someone has a "real, legitimate need" to slap people around, that's okay? I mean, I'm just trying to understand where ONE PERSON'S needs suddenly justificate exploitation of OTHER peoples' bodies.
Also, I have made a real effort to be civil with you, but you are being deliberately insulting and dismissive...talking about the constant reitteration of "You People claim to seek reality, but". I think I'm done being civil, now. Enough is enough.
Seriously, WTF is that?
I'm kind of feeling the same way. For one thing, he's conveniently ignoring everywhere that people have stated that it's not a moral judgement against pornography, as well as my posting of the definition of pornography and clarification (by means of asking if I understood correctly) that most people here are referring to the porn
industry when they talk about porn and exploitation. In addition, he's completely falling into the "You People" trap by lumping everyone's arguments together instead of addressing individual perspectives, and ignoring responses that don't fit into his argument.
Lastly, either he's not reading carefully, or he's deliberately misinterpreting, or his reading comprehension is terrible.
It's impossible to have a rational discussion with a person who isn't actually listening/responding to what you're saying, so I'm not going to keep trying.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:13:05 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 09:04:26 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Ass on September 28, 2012, 08:58:16 PM
Despite claims of reality, you seem to be dismissive of the real, legitimate needs for sex/sexual aids of real people.
So, if someone has a "real, legitimate need" to slap people around, that's okay? I mean, I'm just trying to understand where ONE PERSON'S needs suddenly justificate exploitation of OTHER peoples' bodies.
Also, I have made a real effort to be civil with you, but you are being deliberately insulting and dismissive...talking about the constant reitteration of "You People claim to seek reality, but". I think I'm done being civil, now. Enough is enough.
I'm kind of feeling the same way. For one thing, he's conveniently ignoring everywhere that people have stated that it's not a moral judgement against pornography, as well as my posting of the definition of pornography and clarification (by means if asking if I understood correctly) that most people here are referring to the porn industry when they talk about porn and exploitation. In addition, he's completely falling into the "You People" trap by lumping everyone's arguments together instead of addressing individual perspectives, and ignoring responses that don't fit into his argument.
Lastly, either he's not reading carefully, or he's deliberately misinterpreting, or his reading comprehension is terrible.
It's impossible to have a rational discussion with a person who isn't actually listening/responding to what you're saying, so I'm not going to keep trying.
That's why I'm not bothering with his new thread. I've seen all I need to see.
Another thing I'm having a hard time with is that this guy actually quotes from current porn actors self-promotion blogs as "evidence". Is he trolling, or just really REALLY bad at that whole "credibility" concept?
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:17:14 PM
Another thing I'm having a hard time with is that this guy actually quotes from current porn actors self-promotion blogs as "evidence". Is he trolling, or just really REALLY bad at that whole "credibility" concept?
I'm not even worried about that, because I've stopped trying to have a discussion with him. He can quote anything he likes, it makes no difference.
He's not on my AKK list, like Holist is, I just have no further need to read his posts.
Why are there so many people for who have no problem with personal liberties overriding someone's right to dignity, but not okay with someone's right to dignity overriding anyone's personal liberties? Either way, somebody's losing a piece of their sovereignty (if you want to see it that way), so why is there such resistance to "erring" on the side of the world not being full of assholes?
Quote from: v3x on September 28, 2012, 09:19:21 PM
so why is there such resistance to "erring" on the side of the world not being full of assholes?
Because the world is full of assholes.
Quote from: v3x on September 28, 2012, 09:19:21 PM
Why are there so many people for who have no problem with personal liberties overriding someone's right to dignity, but not okay with someone's right to dignity overriding anyone's personal liberties? Either way, somebody's losing a piece of their sovereignty (if you want to see it that way), so why is there such resistance to "erring" on the side of the world not being full of assholes?
That's a great question.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 09:18:52 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:17:14 PM
Another thing I'm having a hard time with is that this guy actually quotes from current porn actors self-promotion blogs as "evidence". Is he trolling, or just really REALLY bad at that whole "credibility" concept?
I'm not even worried about that, because I've stopped trying to have a discussion with him. He can quote anything he likes, it makes no difference.
He's not on my AKK list, like Holist is, I just have no further need to read his posts.
Holist still wins, possibly an all-time win, for appealing to authority regarding his depth of knowledge on Marx by saying it's because he
went to school with a picture of him. :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
I am never gonna get over that.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:27:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 09:18:52 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:17:14 PM
Another thing I'm having a hard time with is that this guy actually quotes from current porn actors self-promotion blogs as "evidence". Is he trolling, or just really REALLY bad at that whole "credibility" concept?
I'm not even worried about that, because I've stopped trying to have a discussion with him. He can quote anything he likes, it makes no difference.
He's not on my AKK list, like Holist is, I just have no further need to read his posts.
Holist still wins, possibly an all-time win, for appealing to authority regarding his depth of knowledge on Marx by saying it's because he went to school with a picture of him.
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
I am never gonna get over that.
What? Where? I totally missed that one.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 09:04:26 PM
So, if someone has a "real, legitimate need" to slap people around, that's okay? I mean, I'm just trying to understand where ONE PERSON'S needs suddenly justificate exploitation of OTHER peoples' bodies.
Also, I have made a real effort to be civil with you, but you are being deliberately insulting and dismissive...talking about the constant reitteration of "You People claim to seek reality, but". I think I'm done being civil, now. Enough is enough.
Is there no relevant difference between slapping someone and watching a masturbation video?
The second is a valid point. It's hard not to slip into a deliberately insulting and dismissive mode when I'm having my ass constantly chapped for nonsense, such as the unfair comparison above, supposedly not reading posts, etc., etc. But, you are right. I need to do a better job of keeping it out or not get involved here. In any event, only reentered this discussion for Phox, and I guess that was a mistake. So, moving along.
Quote from: holist on September 26, 2012, 07:05:06 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 26, 2012, 06:57:13 AM
Holist, have you actually read Marx? I am just curious because of the odd inconsistency of equating the freelance writer to the alienated wage slave when, according to Marx, the writer would be an example of a non-alienated worker who is directly in control of and intimately in contact with his product, from inception to completion. Can you explain a little more about where you are coming from with that?
Yes, I have. Not all of it, that would be excessively kinky in my book. But as I grew up in a country that was at the time declaring itself communist, then socialist, where I was forced to learn Russian from age 10 and spent all school dos under massive portraits of the three bearded guys
((http://foto.art-print-for-you.com/images/46Lenin_Marx_Engels_Bann.jpg)),
I think I've had a more thorough grounding in the ideology and the practical aspects of Marxism than most Western fashion-lefties.
I'm not saying freelance brainwork is necessarily alienated (and I don't think sex-work is necessarily alienated, either, though I fully agree that counterexamples must be extremely rare). I guess the point I am trying to get to is that while the factors that drive the worker towards alienation in those two fields are massively different in scale, they are somewhat similar in structure (see my numbered points in the OP).
:lulz::hammer: :lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 09:28:56 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:27:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 09:18:52 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:17:14 PM
Another thing I'm having a hard time with is that this guy actually quotes from current porn actors self-promotion blogs as "evidence". Is he trolling, or just really REALLY bad at that whole "credibility" concept?
I'm not even worried about that, because I've stopped trying to have a discussion with him. He can quote anything he likes, it makes no difference.
He's not on my AKK list, like Holist is, I just have no further need to read his posts.
Holist still wins, possibly an all-time win, for appealing to authority regarding his depth of knowledge on Marx by saying it's because he went to school with a picture of him.
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
I am never gonna get over that.
What? Where? I totally missed that one.
Oh my god, I'll find it. It's PRICELESS.
Oh, you already did. ISN'T THAT AMAZING??? :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
As everyone knows, in the capitalist west the reading of Marx and study of Communist history are forbidden by the ruling Supreme Chambers of Commerce.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:40:21 PM
Oh, you already did. ISN'T THAT AMAZING??? :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Have I mentioned that I keep a picture of Richard Feynman in my living room? I am now an expert on advanced physics.
Quote from: Cain on September 28, 2012, 09:42:29 PM
As everyone knows, in the capitalist west the reading of Marx and study of Communist history are forbidden by the ruling Supreme Chambers of Commerce.
More to the point: We don't have enough pictures of Marx, Engels, and Lenin.
Supply and demand, comr-uh, citizen.
The demand is so low, and the cost of production is so high, only decadent college professors can afford pictures of Famous Dead Communists, Che Guevara aside.
Quote from: Cain on September 28, 2012, 09:42:29 PM
As everyone knows, in the capitalist west the reading of Marx and study of Communist history are forbidden by the ruling Supreme Chambers of Commerce.
Even if you can get hold of a copy of his Manifesto it's useless unless you started learning Russian at age 10.
Quote from: Cain on September 28, 2012, 09:45:33 PM
Supply and demand, comr-uh, citizen.
The demand is so low, and the cost of production is so high, only decadent college professors can afford pictures of Famous Dead Communists, Che Guevara aside.
Well, it's a good thing we have Holist, then, who certainly isn't a dilittante at this sort of thing. Or everything else.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:46:07 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 28, 2012, 09:42:29 PM
As everyone knows, in the capitalist west the reading of Marx and study of Communist history are forbidden by the ruling Supreme Chambers of Commerce.
Even if you can get hold of a copy of his Manifesto it's useless unless you started learning Russian at age 10.
TOO OLD HE IS!
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 09:42:39 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:40:21 PM
Oh, you already did. ISN'T THAT AMAZING??? :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Have I mentioned that I keep a picture of Richard Feynman in my living room? I am now an expert on advanced physics.
My bedroom has pictures of Richard Nixon on every wall. I'll leave it to you to figure out what I'm an expert in.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:47:30 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 09:42:39 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:40:21 PM
Oh, you already did. ISN'T THAT AMAZING??? :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Have I mentioned that I keep a picture of Richard Feynman in my living room? I am now an expert on advanced physics.
My bedroom has pictures of Richard Nixon on every wall. I'll leave it to you to figure out what I'm an expert in.
BIBI REBOZO?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 09:47:57 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:47:30 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 09:42:39 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:40:21 PM
Oh, you already did. ISN'T THAT AMAZING??? :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Have I mentioned that I keep a picture of Richard Feynman in my living room? I am now an expert on advanced physics.
My bedroom has pictures of Richard Nixon on every wall. I'll leave it to you to figure out what I'm an expert in.
BIBI REBOZO?
CLOTH COATS? COCKER SPANIELS?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 09:47:57 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:47:30 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 09:42:39 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:40:21 PM
Oh, you already did. ISN'T THAT AMAZING??? :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Have I mentioned that I keep a picture of Richard Feynman in my living room? I am now an expert on advanced physics.
My bedroom has pictures of Richard Nixon on every wall. I'll leave it to you to figure out what I'm an expert in.
BIBI REBOZO?
I'll give you some "covert payments", if you know what I'm sayin'.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:49:42 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 09:47:57 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:47:30 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 09:42:39 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:40:21 PM
Oh, you already did. ISN'T THAT AMAZING??? :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Have I mentioned that I keep a picture of Richard Feynman in my living room? I am now an expert on advanced physics.
My bedroom has pictures of Richard Nixon on every wall. I'll leave it to you to figure out what I'm an expert in.
BIBI REBOZO?
I'll give you some "covert payments", if you know what I'm sayin'.
Just sucked my jeans up my arse.
This is yet another feature of Roger™ of which I was not aware, and would turn off if the fucking menus were in any way comprehensible.
:lulz:
Nigel's tough. I'm not sure I could even sleep good with Nixon gazing down at me, much less do teh secks. :aaaah:
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 28, 2012, 09:55:34 PM
Nigel's tough. I'm not sure I could even sleep good with Nixon gazing down at me, much less do teh secks. :aaaah:
The gentlemen LOVE it!
Well, they don't usually come back, but I'm pretty sure they love it. Secretly.
Quote from: Ayotollah of Ass on September 28, 2012, 08:58:16 PM
Ok, against my better judgment, here it goes.
Quote from: Doktor D. Jennifer Phox on September 28, 2012, 04:53:43 PM
To show sincerity, though, I will give you an example: I noted that the word fun was used as an adjective for the sex itself (i.e. that sex without a condom is more "fun" than sex with a condom), or in cases like when they looked at each other's genitals "for fun", which doesn't necessarily that it was actually a fun experience, but that they were doing it despite the fact they really didn't have the ability to identify signs of STDs unless it was something obvious, to stave off boredom while they waited for the shoot to begin.
It's an interesting point. I'm going to start a new thread called "Soft paternalism, linguistic parsing and exploitation" using not porn examples (since we don't need a Porn Princess thread #3), and see if there is an interest in what I see as a categorical problem. If you want to talk about this specific example, I suppose it makes sense to do that here.
You are missing my point, if I understand your other thread correctly. That was only the surface, since your argument against Nigel seemed to be that because that porn star used the word "fun" that she: A) legitimately enjoyed her experience
overall, 2) is not mentally, emotionally, or physically harmed in some way, or will end up as such if she continues in the industry, or iii) that she isn't forced to give a positive statement because doing otherwise would cause her more problems. Now, staying away from the credibility issue at this point, and looking
just at the context, unless I missed something, she does not say that working in the porn industry has been a fun, positive experience for her, but rather relates an anecdote about a particular experience. I'm not saying that she wouldn't say that, nor that she wouldn't legitimately feel that way, but when working with textual accounts with little or no context like this,
the specific use of language is the ONLY means we have to draw conclusions from., and it seems to me that you drew a conclusion that is not supported by the evidence, on this one.
To add another point: Have you ever noticed that most of the time, emotionally damaged people,
don't realize/admit that they are emotionally damaged? Even if they do, do you think that a person who saw no way out of the porn industry would bad mouth it publicly?
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:56:18 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 28, 2012, 09:55:34 PM
Nigel's tough. I'm not sure I could even sleep good with Nixon gazing down at me, much less do teh secks. :aaaah:
The gentlemen LOVE it!
Well, they don't usually come back, but I'm pretty sure they love it. Secretly.
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:56:18 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 28, 2012, 09:55:34 PM
Nigel's tough. I'm not sure I could even sleep good with Nixon gazing down at me, much less do teh secks. :aaaah:
The gentlemen LOVE it!
Well, they don't usually come back, but I'm pretty sure they love it. Secretly.
That's because, in order to come back, they'd have to dig themselves out of the rose garden... And they're too afraid to do that, because they know another Nigeling is waiting for them if they DO get out.
Quote from: Doktor D. Jennifer Phox on September 28, 2012, 10:23:35 PM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Ass on September 28, 2012, 08:58:16 PM
Ok, against my better judgment, here it goes.
Quote from: Doktor D. Jennifer Phox on September 28, 2012, 04:53:43 PM
To show sincerity, though, I will give you an example: I noted that the word fun was used as an adjective for the sex itself (i.e. that sex without a condom is more "fun" than sex with a condom), or in cases like when they looked at each other's genitals "for fun", which doesn't necessarily that it was actually a fun experience, but that they were doing it despite the fact they really didn't have the ability to identify signs of STDs unless it was something obvious, to stave off boredom while they waited for the shoot to begin.
It's an interesting point. I'm going to start a new thread called "Soft paternalism, linguistic parsing and exploitation" using not porn examples (since we don't need a Porn Princess thread #3), and see if there is an interest in what I see as a categorical problem. If you want to talk about this specific example, I suppose it makes sense to do that here.
You are missing my point, if I understand your other thread correctly. That was only the surface, since your argument against Nigel seemed to be that because that porn star used the word "fun" that she: A) legitimately enjoyed her experience overall, 2) is not mentally, emotionally, or physically harmed in some way, or will end up as such if she continues in the industry, or iii) that she isn't forced to give a positive statement because doing otherwise would cause her more problems. Now, staying away from the credibility issue at this point, and looking just at the context, unless I missed something, she does not say that working in the porn industry has been a fun, positive experience for her, but rather relates an anecdote about a particular experience. I'm not saying that she wouldn't say that, nor that she wouldn't legitimately feel that way, but when working with textual accounts with little or no context like this, the specific use of language is the ONLY means we have to draw conclusions from., and it seems to me that you drew a conclusion that is not supported by the evidence, on this one.
To add another point: Have you ever noticed that most of the time, emotionally damaged people, don't realize/admit that they are emotionally damaged? Even if they do, do you think that a person who saw no way out of the porn industry would bad mouth it publicly?
My point was that she's not painting the same chamber of horrors as Roger. And to play devil's advocate for a moment, what are the consequences when we start picking and choosing what we decide to believe of what someone else says based on our beliefs, filtered through our amateur psychological assessments of people and let our ideas about exploitation and the long term impact of sex work determine what is true or not? We probably end up seeing what we want to see.
Every point you make here are all good and valid points. And for the record, I don't really think you can argue against any of them. Porn can't be anybody's dream job. It has to have long term negative effects on people. And, there has to be an element of coercion going on here. These points alone make for a pretty good anti-porn argument - all by themselves.
And now, I'm going to go think about it, without the benefit of someone calling me an asshole because I'm not on the same page as them yet. And, thanks. This comment was a kindness.
Waitwaitwait. Is part of your hostility toward me based in you being offended because I referred to you as "that asshole guy" and variations thereof?
Dude, just to point out, I don't know about other people but the reason I was calling you "that asshole guy" because ASSHOLE WAS IN YOUR USERNAME. Your username was long and I couldn't remember exactly what it was so I just pulled a memorable piece out and used it for shorthand. Sort of like someone might call me "that monkey guy" if they couldn't remember my username off the top of their head.
If you don't like it when people to call you "Asshole", perhaps it would be wise to not make it your NAME.
As far as picking and choosing who to listen to based on their assessed credibility, it's actually a very important skill; not for confirmation bias purposes, but for gleaning the information that is most likely to be accurate. When there's money involved, it's important to look at who is making the money and where it's coming from. If you are trying to assess whether a product is safe, and you have three studies in front of you, one funded by the maker of the product, one funded by a competitor of the product, and one from an objective third party, when you assess the credibility of the three studies, how do you weight them?
I did not, previously, even as a former sex worker, have the opinions I have today about the sex trade. As a matter of fact, I didn't have these opinions when I came to this board. Changing my mind took a combination of compelling arguments from people here, notably Roger, and of doing additional research that included weeding out, or at least viewing with a high degree of skepticism, opinions from parties who have religious moralistic reasons to denounce the sex trade, and opinions from parties who stand to profit from sex trade. Both have insurmountable biases, in my assessment.
Quote from: Luna on September 29, 2012, 01:39:45 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 09:56:18 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 28, 2012, 09:55:34 PM
Nigel's tough. I'm not sure I could even sleep good with Nixon gazing down at me, much less do teh secks. :aaaah:
The gentlemen LOVE it!
Well, they don't usually come back, but I'm pretty sure they love it. Secretly.
That's because, in order to come back, they'd have to dig themselves out of the rose garden... And they're too afraid to do that, because they know another Nigeling is waiting for them if they DO get out.
:lulz:
Also, AA, not to split hairs but technically I'm not an amateur psychologist, I'm a student psychologist. Which does not necessarily mean more qualified.
:lulz:
(http://i.imgur.com/IQbP3.jpg)
Quote from: Doktor D. Jennifer Phox on September 28, 2012, 10:23:35 PM
You are missing my point, if I understand your other thread correctly. That was only the surface, since your argument against Nigel seemed to be that because that porn star used the word "fun" that she: A) legitimately enjoyed her experience overall, 2) is not mentally, emotionally, or physically harmed in some way, or will end up as such if she continues in the industry, or iii) that she isn't forced to give a positive statement because doing otherwise would cause her more problems. Now, staying away from the credibility issue at this point, and looking just at the context, unless I missed something, she does not say that working in the porn industry has been a fun, positive experience for her, but rather relates an anecdote about a particular experience. I'm not saying that she wouldn't say that, nor that she wouldn't legitimately feel that way, but when working with textual accounts with little or no context like this, the specific use of language is the ONLY means we have to draw conclusions from., and it seems to me that you drew a conclusion that is not supported by the evidence, on this one.
To add another point: Have you ever noticed that most of the time, emotionally damaged people, don't realize/admit that they are emotionally damaged? Even if they do, do you think that a person who saw no way out of the porn industry would bad mouth it publicly?
In retrospect, I think the two major problems, at least for me, in Nigel's and Roger's arguments against sex industry produced porn is that it seemed they were over-stating the case for exploitation, commodification and what not and there was a disconnect between that issue and the viewer. Maybe its I just wasn't seeing it.
But, if we take the points you made, I do see it. If we lay it out like this:
1. Most performers in sex industry produced porn are not enjoying what they are doing, e.g., the doing it for money argument.
2. It seems likely that performing in sex industry produced porn is mentally, emotionally, or physically damaging in some way.
3. On some level, performers are being coerced into giving false witness against 1. and 2., i.e., give some kind of indication that they like it and everything is a-okay, partly to make it okay to watch what they are doing.
If you accept 1-3, and I do, then the watching of industry produced porn is basically watching someone harm themselves and getting off on it. And looking at it that way, it is horrifying.
Bingo.
Quote from: Cain on September 29, 2012, 08:37:42 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/IQbP3.jpg)
Cain, I am sure you are actually aware that growing up behind the Berlin Wall when it was still standing included Marxist indoctrination at all levels of the child-care and education system. By the time I had got out of here at 18, I'd had eight years of formal studies in the Marxist interpretation of history as well as capitalism as it existed then (they called it "history" and later "citizenship studies"). This is not the same as university-level study of Marxism in several ways, but it was protracted and immersive. Not to mention the fact that I explained why I thought freelancing in the wild east was pretty alienated work.
As for the rest of what's been happening here, I see that my prediction on page 16 (I think) that it was not over was correct. This is all very interesting. Has the Ayotollah seen the light? Or does he have his tail between his legs now? Is all sex-work significantly worse in terms of psychological damage to the worker than all other varieties of work (I think I did mention soldiering??? No responses? Prison wardens, doctors, I mean particularly doctors practicing in areas with totally inadquate welfare resources? Obstetricians? Subsistence farmers under increasingly desert-like conditions?). Or is it more the case that the nature of sex-work provides a unique leverage for exploitation partly because sex is, well, sex (though the commercialisation aspect runs deep, did you know that chimps exchange meat for sex? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7988169.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7988169.stm)), and partially because of this particular society's hang-ups about sex are so atrocious?
As for Ayotollah's three points, this also flies, I think:(sorry, I was going to go further there, then decided not to, but failed to delete this fragment, which is meaningless on its own, hence the edit)It seems we have no justifiably generalisable data or means of assessing the evidential power of the data that we do have. We have shocking testimony from one group of people, rather contradictory testimony from another group of people (who claim to be by and large alright with being sex-workers), no way of getting reliable information about the veracity or size of either group... in actual fact, what are we on about? I mean apart from the fact that I am an incorrigible wanker?
I'll think some more, and share the results. Beware.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 29, 2012, 03:27:17 AM
Waitwaitwait. Is part of your hostility toward me based in you being offended because I referred to you as "that asshole guy" and variations thereof?
Dude, just to point out, I don't know about other people but the reason I was calling you "that asshole guy" because ASSHOLE WAS IN YOUR USERNAME. Your username was long and I couldn't remember exactly what it was so I just pulled a memorable piece out and used it for shorthand. Sort of like someone might call me "that monkey guy" if they couldn't remember my username off the top of their head.
If you don't like it when people to call you "Asshole", perhaps it would be wise to not make it your NAME.
Quote from: v3x on September 28, 2012, 09:19:21 PM
Why are there so many people for who have no problem with personal liberties overriding someone's right to dignity, but not okay with someone's right to dignity overriding anyone's personal liberties? Either way, somebody's losing a piece of their sovereignty (if you want to see it that way), so why is there such resistance to "erring" on the side of the world not being full of assholes?
Could you give an example each, please (one of personal liberties overriding right to dignity, and one the other way)?
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 03:45:08 PM
Holist, may I ask you a question?
Would you prefer that your daughter became a translator, or a prostitute? Can you explain your reasoning for your preference?
If I had to choose between those two, I would prefer her to become a translator. The reason for that preference is that prostitution has a far greater chance of damaging her and causing her problems in the long term, and it is also quite likely to cause certain types of damage that freelancing is very unlikely to cause.
But I would warn her, whichever profession she chose to dabble in, about the lure that "easy money" is, the dangers of self-exploitation and the long-term effects of alienated work - all of which are much less brutal and more subtle in translation than they are in prostitution, but are present and problematic, anyway. Which is why (given that her daddy is a freelance translator), I think she may well end up thinking this sort of thing (freelancing) may be a good idea, while I pretty confidently predict that at no point in her life will she think prostitution may be a good idea. So, despite the fact that prostitution is much more dangerous, the freelance angle (a pattern I am passing on right now - she already thinks that "working" is largely equivalent to sitting in front of a computer and being boring) is actually more of a worry for me.
Quote from: Cain on September 27, 2012, 05:06:24 PM
In Ireland, they're explicitly denying sex workers are part of an industry.
http://feministire.wordpress.com/2012/09/09/the-irish-trade-union-movement-throws-sex-workers-under-a-bus-2/
Are you implying that this may have something to do with the fact that so many Irish prostitutes seem to have such a gruesome time of it?
Or if you are not implying that, I would like to.
Quote from: Luna on September 28, 2012, 12:46:36 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 12:32:05 AM
Quote from: holist on September 27, 2012, 11:38:44 PM
Hey, you know what? Fuck you, too. Sugarpuff.
And here's the root of Holist's support of prostitution. He's a misogynist.
Hell, I just figured it was the only way he could get any.
I do not support prostitution, I am not a mysogynist and, thankfully, there is another way I can get some. :lulz:
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 06:50:31 AM
Holist, this may should seem ridiculously obvious to the point that it nearly goes without saying, but when you have primary providers (former prostitutes) speaking out against an industry they were in, they not only have no financial gain from doing so, but also the high probability of financial handicap. When you have current facilitating managers (madams/pimps) in that same industry refuting those who are speaking against it, they have a vested financial interest in the industry. One group has not only power, but also financial interest, and the other group has no power and no financial interest. An impartial investigator, therefore, has to consider those variables.
Well I beg to disagree. Distasteful as you may again find this comment, people actually do get paid for book contracts, especially if the book is sensational enough to be very successful, in which case being a former prostitute speaking out against an industry may actually end up being quite lucrative.
Also, if the picture that the survivors themselves paint (a sketch: a very small handful of terribly intimidated and damaged valiant professors of the "real real" about the sex industry who are being actively, manipulatively and secretly persecuted by those standing to make a profit from the sex industry from the one side and media standing to make a profit from sensationalising their stories from the other), then, to be honest, I don't see why the madams/pimps bother. Whatever else it takes (stomach, a great deal of it, I imagine), I am pretty sure that masquerading as sex-worker rights advocates while keeping up a full-time pimping business is actually a time-consuming, resource-intensive undertaking. The sex industry is massive, entrenched, global, these few dozen crybabies (not what I think about them! what these hypothetical pimps-pretending-to-be-activitists would see them as!) can't pose much of a threat? Especially as they are also denied their voice by the global media, who only see them as fodder for the thrills market.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 12:49:24 AM
Well, if you actually read his post (I did, for the humor value), he goes on and on about how the pimps "seem reasonable".
Liar.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 12:49:24 AM
Which is a level of squick that puts him somewhere between Todd Akin and Babylon Horuv.
I agree it would be, except I didn't go on and on about how the pimps seem reasonable.
I said that one particular person, who is accused by the Survivors of being a madam pretending to be an ex sex-worker and the sex-workers' rights activist in order to discredit them, responded to the accusations with an article that I found convincingly argued and sane. I further mentioned that she's not alone. That's not "going on and on about how the pimps seem reasonable".
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 07:04:19 AM
I just wanted to quote this bit of confirmation bias for posterity:
Quote from: holist on September 27, 2012, 11:38:44 PM
[elide Roger fanboiism]
But then I got to the part where one of these survivors starts going on about how
sex-workers non-profit organisations all over the place are infiltrated by pimps and madames who are out to get the real survivors, who know and want to tell the world that what they experienced is the only kind of sex-work there is. And my Reality Calibrator TM went to yellow alert. Let me reassert: the personal stories of terrible woe and sordid evil rang overwhelmingly true, but when it got to the generalisations, I became somehow suspicious.
http://survivorsconnect.wordpress.com/tag/bedford/
That survivor is particularly upset (among several others) about someone she calls an admitted pimp, Maggie McNeill.
This person also hates Maggie:
http://secretlifeofamanhattancallgirl.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/our-bonds-are-just-too-strong-for-you/
ANd here's awful Maggie herself: Articulate, reasoned, at ease.
https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/ad-scortum/#comment-22722
Articulate, reasoned, at ease. I found not a hint of paranoia, a level-headed person who is OK with herself. Someone personally important once told me: you are basically okay if you know what compromises you have made, and you are basically okay with them.
There are others on her side, too. I clicked around some more.
Then I remembered that a few years ago I spent a couple of hours lurking around a Hungarian site which is like a "product forum" for Johns (not linking, it's in Hungarian), where the "service providers" also posted frequently. They all seemed to be self-employed, without pimp or panderer. Among the punters, the utmost, somewhat stuffy and boring politesse was the norm, various entirely uncrude code-words were used for the various sex acts on offer and the whole board was almost victorian in its verbal prudery - while discussing sex all the time. The women put up photos about themselves, clothed and naked, about two thirds photoshopped their faces out, the rest did not. The Johns didn't put up photos, but had a functioning reputation network running and often wrote reports about their "visits" shortly afterwards: it seemed that peer approval of their little reviews was pretty important to them.
Now you may think that this is gross or perverse or kind of sinister or just plain sad (is what I think), but it is very different to the scene Roger described. Oh, and many of the women were in their thirties and forties, some in their fifties.
*******
I decided I had enough empirical evidence. Maybe not enough for you, but enough for me. I just started thinking again.
It is, I suppose, possible, that one or the other of these two groups, obviously pitted in a struggle which to my shamefully uncompassionate eyes seems to have the characteristics of a power-struggle, is lying. Or, in the case of the survivors, I would rather expect them to have gone through their own very terrible hells and come out scarred, seeing what they have been through everywhere they look. Some of them sometimes seem to agree that to some extent this is going on. But I think the most likely scenario is this:
There are actually many distinct ways of getting into sex work. If we arrange those along the dimension of "quality of worker experience" or "job satisfaction", I would not be surprised to find two sorts of typical stories (among many totally amazing different ones). They are at the two ends of the scale. The bottom end are people I shall call Sex-Work PrincessesTM in Roger's honour. The paradigmatic stories there are even worse than that OP: Sex-WOrk Princesses usually come from majorly disfunctional families, are often abused first by their own families, or they grew up institutionalised, without a family at all, and as they turn sexual (from the very onset of puberty) their abuse turns sexual. And then it is commercialised by evil, violent and dangerous people, with all the unpleasant consequences like Stockholm Syndrome and drug addiction... I am sure their survival statistics are pretty dire.
And at the other end of the scale there are the Happy HookersTM. These are women who had relatively less dangerous and unpredicable, but certainly not particularly loving childhood homes, but only started prostitution after their sexual awakening, either as self-employed people or in a well-regulated and clean part of the industry such as the one that was described above (which, to me, is also spooky as fuck, but I think there's not much in the way of worker exploitation going on). Also, despite their name, they are probably rarely happy about having the job they do, but they are sort of "under the circumstances" satisfied: compared to any other way they could make money, this sort of work comes out the best for them. I'm sure many of them make mistakes, overtake boundaries they later regret, and I would expect their prospects to be worse than the average. Though I wouldn't be surprised if at least a few were actually prudent enough to plan for their later years.
I would not want to hazard a guess as to the proportions of these main types. I expect they vary a great deal with locale: perhaps the city where Roger's experience is from is in general not the most liberal and human-rights-conscious neighbourhood in the world? But my sense of reality tells me that Happy HookersTM are unlikely to be unicornish outliers. And I don't know what to think of the terrible things that the other group suffered. How prevalent is it, really? Also, if this were true, it stands to reason that there would be very little contact between the two types of sex-work. On the one hand, totally exploitative trafficking, which is essentially the enslavement of children for financial gain, which is pretty awful, though the sex thing does make it a great deal awfuler. On the other hand, sex workers who provide a service to gentlemen (and women? I have no idea, really) or film-studios because, as with-it and competent adults, choose to do this.
It basically boils down to "I don't WAN'T the sex industry that I enjoy to be exploitative/bad, so I'll just buy into a convenient commercially-driven reality in which it's GOOD."
No, it doesn't (reading skillz??? Pot calling the kettle black.) It boils down to: "I am trying to buy into reality. While I think the sex-industry is terribly exploitative/bad, I don't think it is as homogeneous or as uniformly exploitative/bad as the Survivors, who have a particular experience (a terrible, terrible experience that nobody should have, but many people, and not only sex-workers do have, though freelance translators do not have) of one particular slice of the industry, make it look like. Now that particular slice is in all likelihood the largest slice, it is even very likely to be larger than all the other slices put together, but it still matters whether it is 99.9% or 60% or 80%. Also, that situation is likely to be the result of a number of factors. First and foremost among them is, again, in all likelihood the fact that sex provides a unique lever for exploitation. But I think even that is only partially motivated by the special place sex has within human biology, while it is also partially motivated by the special stigma/taboo/distorted thinking that surrounds sex in this particular culture. That distinction is uncertain because while the human biology aspect should probably be treated as a given, the cultural aspect is susceptible to change and conscious efforts can actually help make that change. Also, the special status of sex (in biology and in culture) is only part of the story: we live in a day and age that is showing a million other signs of severe crisis, and exploitation is increasing across the board - that is, again, largely cultural (though, as you are so fond of pointing out, it probably does have some primate origins) and hence available for sustained human effort to change in a couple-three lifetimes.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 07:06:24 AM
Also, the weird side-justification that some of the prostitutes are older? What is that, exactly?
It's a reference to the OP. In that picture, people entering the porn industry are used up in a manner of years, die young (on average, much younger than other people) - but it seems that is not always the case?
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Holist reminds me of those people who keep talking when you lay the phone down, you go do whatever for an hour or two and come back, and they're still on the line yammering.
Hey, VERBL, thanks for responding without scorn.
Quote from: VERBL on September 28, 2012, 10:01:55 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 06:50:31 AM
Holist, this may should seem ridiculously obvious to the point that it nearly goes without saying, but when you have primary providers (former prostitutes) speaking out against an industry they were in, they not only have no financial gain from doing so, but also the high probability of financial handicap. When you have current facilitating managers (madams/pimps) in that same industry refuting those who are speaking against it, they have a vested financial interest in the industry. One group has not only power, but also financial interest, and the other group has no power and no financial interest. An impartial investigator, therefore, has to consider those variables.
On top of that, I think it's to be expected that a person who professionally exploits others to provide themselves with a comfortable life will have rationalized and justified their line of work to themselves to the point that in their head, it all totally makes sense and they are fine with themselves. The same applies even to people whose work involves regular brutal violence and murder.
On the other hand, their victims will be traumatized and tend to seem less stable.
It doesn't make much sense to judge people in that kind of situation primarily by their own view of themselves and their experience.
These are all entirely valid points. I agree. But, ultimately, what do we have to go on? What else can we do (given that representative, generalisable evidence is still not forthcoming, perhaps it doesn't even exist), but read the people describing their own lives (and those of others) and, keeping in mind that they may be cleverly crafted rationalisations and justifications aimed at achieving the necessary level of self-deception, judge them on their merits? Have you looked at that Maggie's blog? (https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/ (https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/))? Can you honestly say that this is the blog of a callous, cruel, exploitative madam who is out to get the Survivors because they are threatening her business? Really?
Quote from: VERBL on September 28, 2012, 10:01:55 AM
And one more thing, Holist:
I used to think basically what you stated – that there are miserably abused prostitutes and well-off, independent, empowered ones, and that the two are very separate from one another.
Then I read a post, a while back, from an Israeli ex-prostitute who described the kind of self-exploitation trap you keep mentioning. Basically, at first she was independent, empowered, and making ridiculous amounts of money as a classy call girl.
I am so sorry to have to say this, but that's one piece of anecdotal evidence, about one particular person who fell into the self-exploitation trap good and proper. If you changed your thinking solely on the power of that, your reasoning was fallacious. Or am I missing something here?
Quote from: VERBL on September 28, 2012, 10:01:55 AM
She got addicted to the easy money, and things started spiraling down from there. In the end, she was on all kinds of drugs, abused and demolished as a person.
Okay. But this happens to people in other lines of work, too. Again, I am not saying that prostitution is one of the very few lines of work in which this sort of thing is the most likely to happen (the violence-business you mentioned is likely to be the other one), because it is. But it is not exclusive to prostitution and hence it is not caused by the commercialisation of sex alone. Other factors (coercive, violent exploitation in general, and the sociocultural conditions that are conducive to it) must also have something to do with it.
Quote from: VERBL on September 28, 2012, 10:01:55 AM
And that's kinda what Roger's Porn Princess story is about, really: the two groups you describe are in many (most?) cases two different stages in the same process, not two separate worlds with little contact between them. The "Happy Hooker" is just a Sex-Work Princess in the making. The ones who aren't are quite possibly unicorns.
Quite possibly. But actually, we don't know. At least, nothing that could count as robust evidence for that has been offered so far. There is a great deal of confusing and contradictory information, and various interpretations of that mixed and inconsistent data-set.
Quote from: VERBL on September 28, 2012, 10:01:55 AM
And we've already discussed to death what makes it so difficult and unlikely for a Princess to cut her losses and quit while she's ahead, so I'm not gonna belabor that again.
Well yes, but the very fact that I personally know two people who have gone and done just that, coupled with the fact that I have never, I mean never ever have seen a unicorn, speaks against it.
Quote from: VERBL on September 28, 2012, 10:01:55 AM
Also, the stories that end up online are not going to be a representative sample, you know.
That's entirely true and also important to keep in mind in general. I fail to see its particular relevance, could you explain?
Quote from: VERBL on September 28, 2012, 10:01:55 AM
If you can't see how ridiculous/disgusting you're being, Holist, maybe you should, again, step back, and take time to think over what you wrote in that post in light of the replies. And by step back and think I don't mean between drug-addled work marathons. Wait till you have a free half hour and take some time to actually just think about it, without work, writing, or distraction. Having that kind of time is a privilege, but so is participating in online discussions, so you can evidently afford it.
Yes, it is a luxury I can afford. I have gone and done what you have suggested, and this is where it got me. I fully appreciate the points about my not being particularly lucid or clear, but I still don't think that what I have written makes me look ridiculous/disgusting. People with strong opinions about sex-work see me that way, because I disagree with their strongly held opinions. Which, as far as I can see, are not grounded in fact, but in emotional responses to truly gruesome stories, and personal anecdotal evidence.
I am very interested in your ideas about not only this, but the few other responses I have written, above. And, once more, thanks for the sensible voice.
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 06:21:53 AM
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Holist reminds me of those people who keep talking when you lay the phone down, you go do whatever for an hour or two and come back, and they're still on the line yammering.
Well yes, quite. :lulz:
Except I am doing this while confident that your answering machine is actually on and recording everything... and in fact it is a public answering machine that anyone can listen to anytime they like... which makes it marginally less stupid. Or it doesn't, hell, I don't know anymore.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 29, 2012, 11:43:57 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 29, 2012, 03:27:17 AM
Waitwaitwait. Is part of your hostility toward me based in you being offended because I referred to you as "that asshole guy" and variations thereof?
Dude, just to point out, I don't know about other people but the reason I was calling you "that asshole guy" because ASSHOLE WAS IN YOUR USERNAME. Your username was long and I couldn't remember exactly what it was so I just pulled a memorable piece out and used it for shorthand. Sort of like someone might call me "that monkey guy" if they couldn't remember my username off the top of their head.
If you don't like it when people to call you "Asshole", perhaps it would be wise to not make it your NAME.
Thanks, I'm still wondering about that too. I certainly wasn't calling him "asshole guy" just for disagreeing with me. And when he made a point (can't remember what it was now) I thought was accurate and valid, I quoted and agreed with him on it.
Quote from: holist on September 30, 2012, 05:47:23 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 03:45:08 PM
Holist, may I ask you a question?
Would you prefer that your daughter became a translator, or a prostitute? Can you explain your reasoning for your preference?
If I had to choose between those two, I would prefer her to become a translator. The reason for that preference is that prostitution has a far greater chance of damaging her and causing her problems in the long term, and it is also quite likely to cause certain types of damage that freelancing is very unlikely to cause.
But I would warn her, whichever profession she chose to dabble in, about the lure that "easy money" is, the dangers of self-exploitation and the long-term effects of alienated work - all of which are much less brutal and more subtle in translation than they are in prostitution, but are present and problematic, anyway. Which is why (given that her daddy is a freelance translator), I think she may well end up thinking this sort of thing (freelancing) may be a good idea, while I pretty confidently predict that at no point in her life will she think prostitution may be a good idea. So, despite the fact that prostitution is much more dangerous, the freelance angle (a pattern I am passing on right now - she already thinks that "working" is largely equivalent to sitting in front of a computer and being boring) is actually more of a worry for me.
OK. I'm not sure how that really diverges from my points on prostitution and sex work.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 30, 2012, 06:45:57 AM
Quote from: holist on September 30, 2012, 05:47:23 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 28, 2012, 03:45:08 PM
Holist, may I ask you a question?
Would you prefer that your daughter became a translator, or a prostitute? Can you explain your reasoning for your preference?
If I had to choose between those two, I would prefer her to become a translator. The reason for that preference is that prostitution has a far greater chance of damaging her and causing her problems in the long term, and it is also quite likely to cause certain types of damage that freelancing is very unlikely to cause.
But I would warn her, whichever profession she chose to dabble in, about the lure that "easy money" is, the dangers of self-exploitation and the long-term effects of alienated work - all of which are much less brutal and more subtle in translation than they are in prostitution, but are present and problematic, anyway. Which is why (given that her daddy is a freelance translator), I think she may well end up thinking this sort of thing (freelancing) may be a good idea, while I pretty confidently predict that at no point in her life will she think prostitution may be a good idea. So, despite the fact that prostitution is much more dangerous, the freelance angle (a pattern I am passing on right now - she already thinks that "working" is largely equivalent to sitting in front of a computer and being boring) is actually more of a worry for me.
OK. I'm not sure how that really diverges from my points on prostitution and sex work.
I recommend my other recent posts in this thread.
Quote from: holist on September 30, 2012, 06:40:10 AM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 06:21:53 AM
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Holist reminds me of those people who keep talking when you lay the phone down, you go do whatever for an hour or two and come back, and they're still on the line yammering.
Well yes, quite. :lulz:
Except I am doing this while confident that your answering machine is actually on and recording everything... and in fact it is a public answering machine that anyone can listen to anytime they like... which makes it marginally less stupid. Or it doesn't, hell, I don't know anymore.
Erm...the answering machine comes on when a person doesn't pick up the phone, and records for a short time.
You're crazy Aunt Dottie, or the guy who calls to read entire issues of pro wrestling magazines over the phone.
Quote from: holist on September 30, 2012, 06:38:29 AM
Have you looked at that Maggie's blog?
'Cause she's really good.
http://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/amazingly-stupid-statements/ (http://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2010/10/10/amazingly-stupid-statements/)
In fact, in that article, she sounds positively Discordian.
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 07:31:55 AM
Quote from: holist on September 30, 2012, 06:40:10 AM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 06:21:53 AM
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Holist reminds me of those people who keep talking when you lay the phone down, you go do whatever for an hour or two and come back, and they're still on the line yammering.
Well yes, quite. :lulz:
Except I am doing this while confident that your answering machine is actually on and recording everything... and in fact it is a public answering machine that anyone can listen to anytime they like... which makes it marginally less stupid. Or it doesn't, hell, I don't know anymore.
Erm...the answering machine comes on when a person doesn't pick up the phone, and records for a short time.
You're crazy Aunt Dottie, or the guy who calls to read entire issues of pro wrestling magazines over the phone.
!!WARNING, PARODY!!
Are you seriously suggesting that the PD board is anything like an answering machine? Can you substantiate that ridiculous assertion? Are you out of your mind? Do you realise how squicky that makes you sound? The PD board is a fucking great cornucopia of conversations going back a good many years, some of which are ephemeral but some of which are still going on and spawning new perspectives, new realisations, new FUN after several years! WHile a fucking answering machine is a fucking answering machine! Get a Grip! Support your ridiculous assertions! AND fuck off!
Quote from: holist on September 30, 2012, 07:36:01 AM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 07:31:55 AM
Quote from: holist on September 30, 2012, 06:40:10 AM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 06:21:53 AM
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Holist reminds me of those people who keep talking when you lay the phone down, you go do whatever for an hour or two and come back, and they're still on the line yammering.
Well yes, quite. :lulz:
Except I am doing this while confident that your answering machine is actually on and recording everything... and in fact it is a public answering machine that anyone can listen to anytime they like... which makes it marginally less stupid. Or it doesn't, hell, I don't know anymore.
Erm...the answering machine comes on when a person doesn't pick up the phone, and records for a short time.
You're crazy Aunt Dottie, or the guy who calls to read entire issues of pro wrestling magazines over the phone.
!!WARNING, PARODY!!
Are you seriously suggesting that the PD board is anything like an answering machine? Can you substantiate that ridiculous assertion? Are you out of your mind? Do you realise how squicky that makes you sound? The PD board is a fucking great cornucopia of conversations going back a good many years, some of which are ephemeral but some of which are still going on and spawning new perspectives, new realisations, new FUN after several years! WHile a fucking answering machine is a fucking answering machine! Get a Grip! Support your ridiculous assertions! AND fuck off!
I think I found some of the problem.
holist has reading comprehension FAIL.
holist noted on one of these threads that Nigel posts a lot. He thinks MAYBE IF HE POSTS A REAL LOT, HE CAN BE LIKE NIGEL AND ROGER AND THEM.
I think the holist quote above might have been an attempt to be a WILD AND CRAZY RILLY REAL DISCORDIAN. Pinkboyism.
Not ruling out brain syph, either, actually.
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 07:42:48 AM
I think I found some of the problem.
But actually, you haven't
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 07:42:48 AM
holist has reading comprehension FAIL.
Nope.
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 07:42:48 AM
holist noted on one of these threads that Nigel posts a lot. He thinks MAYBE IF HE POSTS A REAL LOT, HE CAN BE LIKE NIGEL AND ROGER AND THEM.
Not my ambition, I'm afraid. I'm quite happy being like me.
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 07:42:48 AM
I think the holist quote above might have been an attempt to be a WILD AND CRAZY RILLY REAL DISCORDIAN. Pinkboyism.
[/quite]
Well no, it was more like a veiled attempt at demonstrating that some of your attempts at humour suck.
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 07:42:48 AM
Not ruling out brain syph, either, actually.
I get tested regularly, as we do in this business, and nope. :lulz:
Quote from: holist on September 30, 2012, 07:47:05 AM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 07:42:48 AM
I think I found some of the problem.
But actually, you haven't
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 07:42:48 AM
holist has reading comprehension FAIL.
Nope.
You got an answering machine out of a statement about moronic people who blather endlessly.
If it wasn't comprehension FAIL, it was the lamest attempt at a straw man ever.
QuoteQuote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 07:42:48 AM
holist noted on one of these threads that Nigel posts a lot. He thinks MAYBE IF HE POSTS A REAL LOT, HE CAN BE LIKE NIGEL AND ROGER AND THEM.
Not my ambition, I'm afraid. I'm quite happy being like me.
So instead of posting yet more TL;DR, you posted 8 times in succession. Pathetic. :lol:
QuoteQuote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 07:42:48 AM
I think the holist quote above might have been an attempt to be a WILD AND CRAZY RILLY REAL DISCORDIAN. Pinkboyism.
[/quite]
Well no, it was more like a veiled attempt at demonstrating that some of your attempts at humour suck.
Quote FAIL.
And it wasn't a joke, BTW.
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 04:29:26 PM
Quote FAIL.
OOOOH I AM SO SORRYY!!!! "I" AND "O" ARE RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER ON MY KEYBOARD, BUT I HAVE ALREADY CUT OFF THE OFFENDING FINGER AND I PROMISE TO DO BETTER AND TO SPEND SIX YEARS IN SELF-IMPOSED EXILE!
Quote from: holist on September 30, 2012, 06:28:32 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 04:29:26 PM
Quote FAIL.
OOOOH I AM SO SORRYY!!!! "I" AND "O" ARE RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER ON MY KEYBOARD, BUT I HAVE ALREADY CUT OFF THE OFFENDING FINGER AND I PROMISE TO DO BETTER AND TO SPEND SIX YEARS IN SELF-IMPOSED EXILE!
:crybaby:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 30, 2012, 06:29:12 PM
Quote from: holist on September 30, 2012, 06:28:32 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 04:29:26 PM
Quote FAIL.
OOOOH I AM SO SORRYY!!!! "I" AND "O" ARE RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER ON MY KEYBOARD, BUT I HAVE ALREADY CUT OFF THE OFFENDING FINGER AND I PROMISE TO DO BETTER AND TO SPEND SIX YEARS IN SELF-IMPOSED EXILE!
:crybaby:
Yup.
What's that avvie of his anyway? A stuffed coyote with holes punched out? Makes about as much sense as his posts.
All I can say is...
:assburgers:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 30, 2012, 06:35:53 PM
All I can say is...
:assburgers:
Did anybody ever find out what happened to that one? :lol:
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 06:40:42 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 30, 2012, 06:35:53 PM
All I can say is...
:assburgers:
Did anybody ever find out what happened to that one? :lol:
Yeah, Faust knows him vaguely. I gather he bounces from sofa to sofa, bitterly complaining about how he's being treated.
Last I heard, anyway.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 30, 2012, 06:35:53 PM
All I can say is...
:assburgers:
Well quite. But why don't you use this? It's better, cause it's actually me:
(http://blog.holist.hu/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/ez-meg-en.jpg)
Quote from: holist on September 30, 2012, 06:45:27 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 30, 2012, 06:35:53 PM
All I can say is...
:assburgers:
Well quite. But why don't you use this? It's better, cause it's actually me:
(http://blog.holist.hu/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/ez-meg-en.jpg)
Because there's no actual difference.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 30, 2012, 06:45:53 PM
Because there's no actual difference.
Yes there is! My photo wasn't taken with a flash.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 30, 2012, 06:42:53 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 06:40:42 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 30, 2012, 06:35:53 PM
All I can say is...
:assburgers:
Did anybody ever find out what happened to that one? :lol:
Yeah, Faust knows him vaguely. I gather he bounces from sofa to sofa, bitterly complaining about how he's being treated.
Last I heard, anyway.
Assburgers. :roll:
Quote from: holist on September 30, 2012, 06:45:27 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 30, 2012, 06:35:53 PM
All I can say is...
:assburgers:
Well quite. But why don't you use this? It's better, cause it's actually me:
(http://blog.holist.hu/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/ez-meg-en.jpg)
holist: wants to be Robert Plant SOOOOOOO bad.
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 06:49:23 PM
holist: wants to be Robert Plant SOOOOOOO bad.
Well, I sure did, but then I had to realise I was just essentially too short and podgy.
Quote from: holist on September 30, 2012, 06:51:03 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 06:49:23 PM
holist: wants to be Robert Plant SOOOOOOO bad.
Well, I sure did, but then I had to realise I was just essentially to short and podgy.
You look like a muppet.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 30, 2012, 06:51:49 PM
Quote from: holist on September 30, 2012, 06:51:03 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 06:49:23 PM
holist: wants to be Robert Plant SOOOOOOO bad.
Well, I sure did, but then I had to realise I was just essentially to short and podgy.
You look like a muppet.
So does his ideal, these days. :lulz:
(http://img.spokeo.com/public/900-600/robert_plant_2011_03_14.jpg)
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on September 30, 2012, 07:57:56 PM
You look like my neighbor's poodle's ass.
Do I? That dog needs a checkup. :lol:
Quote from: Dishonest Wanker on September 30, 2012, 07:32:04 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 30, 2012, 06:51:49 PM
You look like a muppet.
You look like a clown.
What gave it away? The polka-dotted pants or the big red nose?
Now, everyone else:
We are doing the same fucking thing that happens anytime people start coming back to PD full time, creative efforts get underway, whatever. Some assburgers jackass comes on the board and gets his 15 minutes, and everything else stops.
We have failed the pattern recognition portion of the test.
You're right. I'ma stop now.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on October 01, 2012, 01:14:30 AM
Quote from: Dishonest Wanker on September 30, 2012, 07:32:04 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 30, 2012, 06:51:49 PM
You look like a muppet.
You look like a clown.
What gave it away? The polka-dotted pants or the big red nose?
No, it was the constant stream of fair-to-middling jokes and the pronounced dependence on positive audience feedback, actually.
:lulz:
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 29, 2012, 03:27:17 AM
Waitwaitwait. Is part of your hostility toward me based in you being offended because I referred to you as "that asshole guy" and variations thereof?
Not at all. And, if you think about that fact and the rest of your comment, you can see the problem. It's like you do the inverse of the principle of charity, rendering the worst interpretation or making up something whole-cloth, and then you attack that - while adding in a side dish of scorn and derision. But, I did a bit of that myself. It is an "inflammatory topic", after all. And, in the end, my thinking ended up in a better place. So, really, there's no room to bitch about it, and it's probably just a sign I need thicker skin.
Quote from: Dishonest Wanker on September 29, 2012, 10:29:31 PM
Has the Ayotollah seen the light? Or does he have his tail between his legs now? Is all sex-work significantly worse in terms of psychological damage to the worker than all other varieties of work (I think I did mention soldiering??? No responses? Prison wardens, doctors, I mean particularly doctors practicing in areas with totally inadquate welfare resources? Obstetricians? Subsistence farmers under increasingly desert-like conditions?). Or is it more the case that the nature of sex-work provides a unique leverage for exploitation partly because sex is, well, sex (though the commercialisation aspect runs deep, did you know that chimps exchange meat for sex? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7988169.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7988169.stm)), and partially because of this particular society's hang-ups about sex are so atrocious?
I see the light. I think the exploitation/wage slavery lens makes this topic much more difficult to understand - or at least opens the door for vigorous rationalization. Part of the problem with this lens is that it treats sex as if it were an economic transaction. While economics may figure into it, sex is never only about economics (if I recall correctly, even Marx identifies capitalism as social relations), and when you make it only about economics, you are blinding yourself to other important issues and treating it as merely an economics transaction is part of the violence of it.
Even if you want to go the comparative exploitation route, what is the difference between a soldier going to war and killing themselves after because they would rather not live with the things they have done, and a sex industry performer doing sex industry porn and then doing the same? Or, let's imagine that individual soldiers had soldier cams. What kind of person would watch these war cams? Maybe there is a case for getting information about facts on the ground, but what kind of person enjoys it?
Another important point, since we are using the economic lens, is that there are ready substitutes. Real sexual relationships, erotica, reflections on pass experience, or whatever. It is an act of commission that is completely optional.
It is possible to could go round and round on this topic. But, I find the argument above convincing. In order to attack it, you would have to argue that sex industry porn is not harmful mentally, emotionally or physically to the performers, and while there may not be definitive studies on the matter, to take a phrase from Roger, the fact that it is harmful is how you bet. And the whole thing turns on that point. Whether it is as harmful as being in a war zone, a prison, an area of subsistence farming, etc., who cares?
Anyway, everyone has rightly moved on. I just wanted to address a few loose ends since I dropped out of the conversation. Thanks to everyone who helped change my mind.
Quote from: Ayotollah of Ass on October 02, 2012, 08:53:48 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 29, 2012, 03:27:17 AM
Waitwaitwait. Is part of your hostility toward me based in you being offended because I referred to you as "that asshole guy" and variations thereof?
Not at all. And, if you think about that fact and the rest of your comment, you can see the problem. It's like you do the inverse of the principle of charity, rendering the worst interpretation or making up something whole-cloth, and then you attack that - while adding in a side dish of scorn and derision. But, I did a bit of that myself. It is an "inflammatory topic", after all. And, in the end, my thinking ended up in a better place. So, really, there's no room to bitch about it, and it's probably just a sign I need thicker skin.
:? I am not sure what you mean by this. I re-read the rest of my comment, and can't figure out what you're referring to with this. Can you please be more specific? Here's the post again.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 29, 2012, 03:27:17 AM
Waitwaitwait. Is part of your hostility toward me based in you being offended because I referred to you as "that asshole guy" and variations thereof?
Dude, just to point out, I don't know about other people but the reason I was calling you "that asshole guy" because ASSHOLE WAS IN YOUR USERNAME. Your username was long and I couldn't remember exactly what it was so I just pulled a memorable piece out and used it for shorthand. Sort of like someone might call me "that monkey guy" if they couldn't remember my username off the top of their head.
If you don't like it when people to call you "Asshole", perhaps it would be wise to not make it your NAME.
As far as picking and choosing who to listen to based on their assessed credibility, it's actually a very important skill; not for confirmation bias purposes, but for gleaning the information that is most likely to be accurate. When there's money involved, it's important to look at who is making the money and where it's coming from. If you are trying to assess whether a product is safe, and you have three studies in front of you, one funded by the maker of the product, one funded by a competitor of the product, and one from an objective third party, when you assess the credibility of the three studies, how do you weight them?
I did not, previously, even as a former sex worker, have the opinions I have today about the sex trade. As a matter of fact, I didn't have these opinions when I came to this board. Changing my mind took a combination of compelling arguments from people here, notably Roger, and of doing additional research that included weeding out, or at least viewing with a high degree of skepticism, opinions from parties who have religious moralistic reasons to denounce the sex trade, and opinions from parties who stand to profit from sex trade. Both have insurmountable biases, in my assessment.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on October 03, 2012, 05:15:54 AM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Ass on October 02, 2012, 08:53:48 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 29, 2012, 03:27:17 AM
Waitwaitwait. Is part of your hostility toward me based in you being offended because I referred to you as "that asshole guy" and variations thereof?
Not at all. And, if you think about that fact and the rest of your comment, you can see the problem. It's like you do the inverse of the principle of charity, rendering the worst interpretation or making up something whole-cloth, and then you attack that - while adding in a side dish of scorn and derision. But, I did a bit of that myself. It is an "inflammatory topic", after all. And, in the end, my thinking ended up in a better place. So, really, there's no room to bitch about it, and it's probably just a sign I need thicker skin.
:? I am not sure what you mean by this. I re-read the rest of my comment, and can't figure out what you're referring to with this. Can you please be more specific? Here's the post again.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 29, 2012, 03:27:17 AM
Waitwaitwait. Is part of your hostility toward me based in you being offended because I referred to you as "that asshole guy" and variations thereof?
Dude, just to point out, I don't know about other people but the reason I was calling you "that asshole guy" because ASSHOLE WAS IN YOUR USERNAME. Your username was long and I couldn't remember exactly what it was so I just pulled a memorable piece out and used it for shorthand. Sort of like someone might call me "that monkey guy" if they couldn't remember my username off the top of their head.
If you don't like it when people to call you "Asshole", perhaps it would be wise to not make it your NAME.
As far as picking and choosing who to listen to based on their assessed credibility, it's actually a very important skill; not for confirmation bias purposes, but for gleaning the information that is most likely to be accurate. When there's money involved, it's important to look at who is making the money and where it's coming from. If you are trying to assess whether a product is safe, and you have three studies in front of you, one funded by the maker of the product, one funded by a competitor of the product, and one from an objective third party, when you assess the credibility of the three studies, how do you weight them?
I did not, previously, even as a former sex worker, have the opinions I have today about the sex trade. As a matter of fact, I didn't have these opinions when I came to this board. Changing my mind took a combination of compelling arguments from people here, notably Roger, and of doing additional research that included weeding out, or at least viewing with a high degree of skepticism, opinions from parties who have religious moralistic reasons to denounce the sex trade, and opinions from parties who stand to profit from sex trade. Both have insurmountable biases, in my assessment.
Sure. You went with an interpretation, "This guy is complaining about being called an asshole." And then, spend two paragraphs pointed out how absurd that is, given my name. The absurdity was definitely a sign, but was it a sign that I was complaining about something I essentially do to myself or that the interpretation wasn't quite right? In the end, it's hard to accept the logic of a position while reading and responding to people who are saying they think you're not worth talking to, compare your position to stomping on puppies, so forth and so on, which was my point.
The second half is valid. I brought in the porn star's blog as a weak counter-example and because I thought it was interesting. But, your subsequent commentary focused on me - your perceptions of my ability to evaluate evidence, things I might need to learn, etc. - rather than what you see as the problems of the counter-example. This came across as condescending in the context of the larger discussion, but reading it again now and taking it on its own, it's innocuous.
Nigel; Really sorry if you addressed this already but it's midnight and there's 24 pages of conversation I haven't read, which, from a glance, look kind of painful to read.
I'm just really curious; you said your opinions have changed a lot in regards to sex work and said that that came from conversations here and your own research. I'm wondering what they changed FROM, what they changed TO, and what was the compelling feature that you came across that made that change happen?
Quote from: Ayotollah of Ass on October 04, 2012, 03:08:23 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on October 03, 2012, 05:15:54 AM
Quote from: Ayotollah of Ass on October 02, 2012, 08:53:48 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 29, 2012, 03:27:17 AM
Waitwaitwait. Is part of your hostility toward me based in you being offended because I referred to you as "that asshole guy" and variations thereof?
Not at all. And, if you think about that fact and the rest of your comment, you can see the problem. It's like you do the inverse of the principle of charity, rendering the worst interpretation or making up something whole-cloth, and then you attack that - while adding in a side dish of scorn and derision. But, I did a bit of that myself. It is an "inflammatory topic", after all. And, in the end, my thinking ended up in a better place. So, really, there's no room to bitch about it, and it's probably just a sign I need thicker skin.
:? I am not sure what you mean by this. I re-read the rest of my comment, and can't figure out what you're referring to with this. Can you please be more specific? Here's the post again.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on September 29, 2012, 03:27:17 AM
Waitwaitwait. Is part of your hostility toward me based in you being offended because I referred to you as "that asshole guy" and variations thereof?
Dude, just to point out, I don't know about other people but the reason I was calling you "that asshole guy" because ASSHOLE WAS IN YOUR USERNAME. Your username was long and I couldn't remember exactly what it was so I just pulled a memorable piece out and used it for shorthand. Sort of like someone might call me "that monkey guy" if they couldn't remember my username off the top of their head.
If you don't like it when people to call you "Asshole", perhaps it would be wise to not make it your NAME.
As far as picking and choosing who to listen to based on their assessed credibility, it's actually a very important skill; not for confirmation bias purposes, but for gleaning the information that is most likely to be accurate. When there's money involved, it's important to look at who is making the money and where it's coming from. If you are trying to assess whether a product is safe, and you have three studies in front of you, one funded by the maker of the product, one funded by a competitor of the product, and one from an objective third party, when you assess the credibility of the three studies, how do you weight them?
I did not, previously, even as a former sex worker, have the opinions I have today about the sex trade. As a matter of fact, I didn't have these opinions when I came to this board. Changing my mind took a combination of compelling arguments from people here, notably Roger, and of doing additional research that included weeding out, or at least viewing with a high degree of skepticism, opinions from parties who have religious moralistic reasons to denounce the sex trade, and opinions from parties who stand to profit from sex trade. Both have insurmountable biases, in my assessment.
Sure. You went with an interpretation, "This guy is complaining about being called an asshole." And then, spend two paragraphs pointed out how absurd that is, given my name. The absurdity was definitely a sign, but was it a sign that I was complaining about something I essentially do to myself or that the interpretation wasn't quite right? In the end, it's hard to accept the logic of a position while reading and responding to people who are saying they think you're not worth talking to, compare your position to stomping on puppies, so forth and so on, which was my point.
The second half is valid. I brought in the porn star's blog as a weak counter-example and because I thought it was interesting. But, your subsequent commentary focused on me - your perceptions of my ability to evaluate evidence, things I might need to learn, etc. - rather than what you see as the problems of the counter-example. This came across as condescending in the context of the larger discussion, but reading it again now and taking it on its own, it's innocuous.
You're attributing all kinds of weird intent to my post.
A. I explained why I was calling you "That Asshole guy" (after you said something that indicated that you may have taken offense to people calling you an asshole in their responses to you) and B. I responded to your implied accusation that I was picking and choosing who I found credible by explaining why selecting for credibility is important. Maybe you disagree. Either way, I was responding directly to the "picking and choosing" criticism. Yes, it was also an implied criticism of your apparent lack of vetting when you chose which sources you found more credible, but that's how we learn, isn't it?
The problem of the counter-example was that it was provided by someone who has a direct monetary interest in portraying a positive image of the porn industry. I don't think I failed to address that in my post.
I also am not interested in engaging further with you, because you argue like a butthurt teenager.
Quote from: 🐳🐙🐳🐙 on October 04, 2012, 03:15:57 PM
Nigel; Really sorry if you addressed this already but it's midnight and there's 24 pages of conversation I haven't read, which, from a glance, look kind of painful to read.
I'm just really curious; you said your opinions have changed a lot in regards to sex work and said that that came from conversations here and your own research. I'm wondering what they changed FROM, what they changed TO, and what was the compelling feature that you came across that made that change happen?
When I came here, I believed that sex work can be empowering. I thought that sex work is simply providing a service that fills a need, and that it can be provided as a safe, sane, consensual exchange between equals.
Now, I believe that while under ideal circumstances the above would be true, those ideal circumstances are so unlikely as to contribute negligibly to the overall reality of sex work, and that sex work as it exists in reality contributes negatively to human equality, particularly gender-based human equality. The compelling feature that I came across, or rather which came into focus for me, was isolating the concept of the commodity being sold, and what it is sold for. The commodity is human bodies, and it is sold for physical gratification... consumption, after a fashion. It is peddled like a consumer good. I think this is harmful both to the consumer and to the consumed.
Thanks.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on October 04, 2012, 04:18:48 PM
Quote from: 🐳🐙🐳🐙 on October 04, 2012, 03:15:57 PM
Nigel; Really sorry if you addressed this already but it's midnight and there's 24 pages of conversation I haven't read, which, from a glance, look kind of painful to read.
I'm just really curious; you said your opinions have changed a lot in regards to sex work and said that that came from conversations here and your own research. I'm wondering what they changed FROM, what they changed TO, and what was the compelling feature that you came across that made that change happen?
When I came here, I believed that sex work can be empowering. I thought that sex work is simply providing a service that fills a need, and that it can be provided as a safe, sane, consensual exchange between equals.
Now, I believe that while under ideal circumstances the above would be true, those ideal circumstances are so unlikely as to contribute negligibly to the overall reality of sex work, and that sex work as it exists in reality contributes negatively to human equality, particularly gender-based human equality. The compelling feature that I came across, or rather which came into focus for me, was isolating the concept of the commodity being sold, and what it is sold for. The commodity is human bodies, and it is sold for physical gratification... consumption, after a fashion. It is peddled like a consumer good. I think this is harmful both to the consumer and to the consumed.
Should it be illegal?
Quote from: hunter s.durden on October 05, 2012, 06:29:55 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on October 04, 2012, 04:18:48 PM
Quote from: 🐳🐙🐳🐙 on October 04, 2012, 03:15:57 PM
Nigel; Really sorry if you addressed this already but it's midnight and there's 24 pages of conversation I haven't read, which, from a glance, look kind of painful to read.
I'm just really curious; you said your opinions have changed a lot in regards to sex work and said that that came from conversations here and your own research. I'm wondering what they changed FROM, what they changed TO, and what was the compelling feature that you came across that made that change happen?
When I came here, I believed that sex work can be empowering. I thought that sex work is simply providing a service that fills a need, and that it can be provided as a safe, sane, consensual exchange between equals.
Now, I believe that while under ideal circumstances the above would be true, those ideal circumstances are so unlikely as to contribute negligibly to the overall reality of sex work, and that sex work as it exists in reality contributes negatively to human equality, particularly gender-based human equality. The compelling feature that I came across, or rather which came into focus for me, was isolating the concept of the commodity being sold, and what it is sold for. The commodity is human bodies, and it is sold for physical gratification... consumption, after a fashion. It is peddled like a consumer good. I think this is harmful both to the consumer and to the consumed.
Should it be illegal?
It shouldn't be illegal, it should be
unnecessary.
Quote from: vȝx on October 05, 2012, 06:43:31 AM
It shouldn't be illegal, it should be unnecessary.
Care to elaborate?
Like any vice, you can't legislate or enforce it out of existence. Plus, the more illegal you make it and the more harshly you enforce its prohibition, the more you contribute to the overall problem of disenfranchised people with nowhere to turn having to resort to extremely self-destructive behaviors just to survive.
The sex trade is ancient -- it's existed for as long as people have been able to trade things for other things. But in today's world it is largely a product of a culture that expects males to dominate females; a society that shuns sex as almost always dirty and invariably secret; and it is reinforced by the fact that we make it damn near impossible for anyone to make anything of their lives if they're not born into privilege and opportunity. All of those factors need to be eliminated just because they tend to make our society a shitty one to live in for millions of people.
The sex trade could be seriously reduced, if not eliminated, just by having a culture where women are equals instead of objects, where sex (in all of its consensual forms) is accepted as natural and healthy, and where opportunity is ubiquitous. If the sex trade were to survive cultural shifts like these, it would certainly be less of a trap and carry less of a stigma than it does now.
Quote from: hunter s.durden on October 05, 2012, 06:29:55 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on October 04, 2012, 04:18:48 PM
Quote from: 🐳🐙🐳🐙 on October 04, 2012, 03:15:57 PM
Nigel; Really sorry if you addressed this already but it's midnight and there's 24 pages of conversation I haven't read, which, from a glance, look kind of painful to read.
I'm just really curious; you said your opinions have changed a lot in regards to sex work and said that that came from conversations here and your own research. I'm wondering what they changed FROM, what they changed TO, and what was the compelling feature that you came across that made that change happen?
When I came here, I believed that sex work can be empowering. I thought that sex work is simply providing a service that fills a need, and that it can be provided as a safe, sane, consensual exchange between equals.
Now, I believe that while under ideal circumstances the above would be true, those ideal circumstances are so unlikely as to contribute negligibly to the overall reality of sex work, and that sex work as it exists in reality contributes negatively to human equality, particularly gender-based human equality. The compelling feature that I came across, or rather which came into focus for me, was isolating the concept of the commodity being sold, and what it is sold for. The commodity is human bodies, and it is sold for physical gratification... consumption, after a fashion. It is peddled like a consumer good. I think this is harmful both to the consumer and to the consumed.
Should it be illegal?
No. Just because something's wrong doesn't mean it should be illegal.
Most prohibition creates at least as many problems as it solves because prohibition does not tackle demand, it merely shifts responsibility for supply into the hands of criminals. Organised crime by it's very nature fucks the market. It degrades the product and annihilates trading standards. Disputes are almost always settled violently, it's a pretty shitty state of affairs. That's before you even factor in the cost of enforcement, which has no ceiling and depends entirely on how much piss you want to aim into the wind.
Quote from: hunter s.durden on October 05, 2012, 06:29:55 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on October 04, 2012, 04:18:48 PM
Quote from: 🐳🐙🐳🐙 on October 04, 2012, 03:15:57 PM
Nigel; Really sorry if you addressed this already but it's midnight and there's 24 pages of conversation I haven't read, which, from a glance, look kind of painful to read.
I'm just really curious; you said your opinions have changed a lot in regards to sex work and said that that came from conversations here and your own research. I'm wondering what they changed FROM, what they changed TO, and what was the compelling feature that you came across that made that change happen?
When I came here, I believed that sex work can be empowering. I thought that sex work is simply providing a service that fills a need, and that it can be provided as a safe, sane, consensual exchange between equals.
Now, I believe that while under ideal circumstances the above would be true, those ideal circumstances are so unlikely as to contribute negligibly to the overall reality of sex work, and that sex work as it exists in reality contributes negatively to human equality, particularly gender-based human equality. The compelling feature that I came across, or rather which came into focus for me, was isolating the concept of the commodity being sold, and what it is sold for. The commodity is human bodies, and it is sold for physical gratification... consumption, after a fashion. It is peddled like a consumer good. I think this is harmful both to the consumer and to the consumed.
Should it be illegal?
I don't think pornography should be illegal, because I think that legislating what consenting adults do with their bodies as a form of expression is more wrong.
I am torn on prostitution. I don't think prostitution itself should ever be a crime, because that punishes the prostitute, compounding the problem rather than solving it. I think that perhaps rather than criminalizing it, it should be legalized and regulated, and in fact I think that the strongest laws out there should be "Madam laws", which require anyone acting as a manager to be credentialed and licensed, and regulate madam fees. It should be an intensive training (perhaps a graduate program) and an expensive license, and there should also be a prostitution tax which goes into a fund for therapy and education for prostitutes and former prostitutes. Practicing as a madam without a license should be a big, big crime, as should "black market" prostitution, which should simply be considered human trafficking. Further, all prostitutes should need to maintain a state-issued license, and in order to maintain it they would undergo regular STD testing. In order to help minimize human trafficking, in order to obtain a license they must be citizens.
What's anyone's take on the Amsterdam situation? I know it's legal or decriminalised or something over there. How close is it to the scenario Nigel just described? Do prostitutes have better/longer lives?
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on October 05, 2012, 03:43:56 PM
Quote from: hunter s.durden on October 05, 2012, 06:29:55 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on October 04, 2012, 04:18:48 PM
Quote from: 🐳🐙🐳🐙 on October 04, 2012, 03:15:57 PM
Nigel; Really sorry if you addressed this already but it's midnight and there's 24 pages of conversation I haven't read, which, from a glance, look kind of painful to read.
I'm just really curious; you said your opinions have changed a lot in regards to sex work and said that that came from conversations here and your own research. I'm wondering what they changed FROM, what they changed TO, and what was the compelling feature that you came across that made that change happen?
When I came here, I believed that sex work can be empowering. I thought that sex work is simply providing a service that fills a need, and that it can be provided as a safe, sane, consensual exchange between equals.
Now, I believe that while under ideal circumstances the above would be true, those ideal circumstances are so unlikely as to contribute negligibly to the overall reality of sex work, and that sex work as it exists in reality contributes negatively to human equality, particularly gender-based human equality. The compelling feature that I came across, or rather which came into focus for me, was isolating the concept of the commodity being sold, and what it is sold for. The commodity is human bodies, and it is sold for physical gratification... consumption, after a fashion. It is peddled like a consumer good. I think this is harmful both to the consumer and to the consumed.
Should it be illegal?
I don't think pornography should be illegal, because I think that legislating what consenting adults do with their bodies as a form of expression is more wrong.
I am torn on prostitution. I don't think prostitution itself should ever be a crime, because that punishes the prostitute, compounding the problem rather than solving it. I think that perhaps rather than criminalizing it, it should be legalized and regulated, and in fact I think that the strongest laws out there should be "Madam laws", which require anyone acting as a manager to be credentialed and licensed, and regulate madam fees. It should be an intensive training (perhaps a graduate program) and an expensive license, and there should also be a prostitution tax which goes into a fund for therapy and education for prostitutes and former prostitutes. Practicing as a madam without a license should be a big, big crime, as should "black market" prostitution, which should simply be considered human trafficking. Further, all prostitutes should need to maintain a state-issued license, and in order to maintain it they would undergo regular STD testing. In order to help minimize human trafficking, in order to obtain a license they must be citizens.
"I got a double bachelors in sociology and pimpology with a masters in whorology."
I failed my big collared shirts module :cry:
Quote from: American Jackal on October 05, 2012, 05:37:50 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on October 05, 2012, 03:43:56 PM
Quote from: hunter s.durden on October 05, 2012, 06:29:55 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on October 04, 2012, 04:18:48 PM
Quote from: link=topic=33322.msg1213584#msg1213584 date=1349360157
Nigel; Really sorry if you addressed this already but it's midnight and there's 24 pages of conversation I haven't read, which, from a glance, look kind of painful to read.
I'm just really curious; you said your opinions have changed a lot in regards to sex work and said that that came from conversations here and your own research. I'm wondering what they changed FROM, what they changed TO, and what was the compelling feature that you came across that made that change happen?
When I came here, I believed that sex work can be empowering. I thought that sex work is simply providing a service that fills a need, and that it can be provided as a safe, sane, consensual exchange between equals.
Now, I believe that while under ideal circumstances the above would be true, those ideal circumstances are so unlikely as to contribute negligibly to the overall reality of sex work, and that sex work as it exists in reality contributes negatively to human equality, particularly gender-based human equality. The compelling feature that I came across, or rather which came into focus for me, was isolating the concept of the commodity being sold, and what it is sold for. The commodity is human bodies, and it is sold for physical gratification... consumption, after a fashion. It is peddled like a consumer good. I think this is harmful both to the consumer and to the consumed.
Should it be illegal?
I don't think pornography should be illegal, because I think that legislating what consenting adults do with their bodies as a form of expression is more wrong.
I am torn on prostitution. I don't think prostitution itself should ever be a crime, because that punishes the prostitute, compounding the problem rather than solving it. I think that perhaps rather than criminalizing it, it should be legalized and regulated, and in fact I think that the strongest laws out there should be "Madam laws", which require anyone acting as a manager to be credentialed and licensed, and regulate madam fees. It should be an intensive training (perhaps a graduate program) and an expensive license, and there should also be a prostitution tax which goes into a fund for therapy and education for prostitutes and former prostitutes. Practicing as a madam without a license should be a big, big crime, as should "black market" prostitution, which should simply be considered human trafficking. Further, all prostitutes should need to maintain a state-issued license, and in order to maintain it they would undergo regular STD testing. In order to help minimize human trafficking, in order to obtain a license they must be citizens.
"I got a double bachelors in sociology and pimpology with a masters in whorology."
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
I like your idea, Nigel! But what about the most desperate people who can't obtain a license because they aren't citizens, can't afford the fees, or whatever? Maybe just a better safety net in place for everybody would fix that?
The real question in my mind is, given that prostitution was legal and safe and clean and nice, with benefits, how many people would actually choose it as a career? Maybe more than I think?
We're dealing with two stereotypes here - the abused basket case who gets strung out on meth and pimped into it and Julia f'kin Roberts.
I can't wrap my head around the idea of some kid, at 12 or 13 years telling their careers advisor that they know it's going to take a lot of hard work but what they really want to be, when they leave university, is a cum dump for fat, balding middle aged creeps.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on October 05, 2012, 06:23:57 PM
The real question in my mind is, given that prostitution was legal and safe and clean and nice, with benefits, how many people would actually choose it as a career? Maybe more than I think?
We're dealing with two stereotypes here - the abused basket case who gets strung out on meth and pimped into it and Julia f'kin Roberts.
I can't wrap my head around the idea of some kid, at 12 or 13 years telling their careers advisor that they know it's going to take a lot of hard work but what they really want to be, when they leave university, is a cum dump for fat, balding middle aged creeps.
THIS
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on October 05, 2012, 06:23:57 PM
The real question in my mind is, given that prostitution was legal and safe and clean and nice, with benefits, how many people would actually choose it as a career? Maybe more than I think?
We're dealing with two stereotypes here - the abused basket case who gets strung out on meth and pimped into it and Julia f'kin Roberts.
I can't wrap my head around the idea of some kid, at 12 or 13 years telling their careers advisor that they know it's going to take a lot of hard work but what they really want to be, when they leave university, is a cum dump for fat, balding middle aged creeps.
See, now, you're just shitting all over the beliefs of those here who believe in Happy Hookers who do it because it's all empowering and shit.
I do believe there are people who do that, but they are, by far, the exception rather than the rule. Most hookers do it because they don't have any other options.
I really like Nigel's idea, mostly. The problem with a license, though, is that not everyone is going to come forward to get one because of worries about deported, if they're an undocumented immigrant, or arrested if they've been charged with prostitution before. Also, how much are states going to be allowed to charge? I could see some states, especially those that are more puritan than others, charging an arm and a leg and it's not like these people are going into hooking with a lot of money in their pockets to begin with.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on October 05, 2012, 06:46:11 PM
I do believe there are people who do that, but they are, by far, the exception rather than the rule.
I believe that sometimes you hear hoof-beats, and a horse comes down the road.
I believe that sometimes you hear hoof-beats, and a zebra comes down the road.
I believe that sometimes you hear hoof-beats, and a unicorn comes down the road, being ridden by pink monkeys and baby dolphins in specially-made saddlebags.
People believe in Happy Hookers for the same reason one man at random on a firing squad is given a rifle with a blank in it instead of a live cartridge.
Please note the key words, "by far, the exception." They're a zebra.
Quote from: Secret Agent GARBO on October 05, 2012, 07:19:26 PM
Please note the key words, "by far, the exception." They're a zebra.
In my rather limited experience, they're one of the baby dolphins on the unicorn.
So long as we're not equating the entire sex industry to prostitution, I can agree.
Now, I can kind of imagine some transgressive teen/twenties "rebel" trying to be all bad ass and "you can't tell me what to do/won't this piss off everybody" considering it, and maybe even following through a few times. But unless there's a serious desperately financial need, I don't see anyone continuing with it if they don't have to.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 05, 2012, 07:36:40 PM
Now, I can kind of imagine some transgressive teen/twenties "rebel" trying to be all bad ass and "you can't tell me what to do/won't this piss off everybody" considering it, and maybe even following through a few times. But unless there's a serious desperately financial need, I don't see anyone continuing with it if they don't have to.
Not after the first time they have to fuck some greasy-ass 45-55 year old fat guy with no idea what personal hygiene is.
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on October 05, 2012, 05:55:59 PM
Quote from: American Jackal on October 05, 2012, 05:37:50 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on October 05, 2012, 03:43:56 PM
Quote from: hunter s.durden on October 05, 2012, 06:29:55 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on October 04, 2012, 04:18:48 PM
Quote from: link=topic=33322.msg1213584#msg1213584 date=1349360157
Nigel; Really sorry if you addressed this already but it's midnight and there's 24 pages of conversation I haven't read, which, from a glance, look kind of painful to read.
I'm just really curious; you said your opinions have changed a lot in regards to sex work and said that that came from conversations here and your own research. I'm wondering what they changed FROM, what they changed TO, and what was the compelling feature that you came across that made that change happen?
When I came here, I believed that sex work can be empowering. I thought that sex work is simply providing a service that fills a need, and that it can be provided as a safe, sane, consensual exchange between equals.
Now, I believe that while under ideal circumstances the above would be true, those ideal circumstances are so unlikely as to contribute negligibly to the overall reality of sex work, and that sex work as it exists in reality contributes negatively to human equality, particularly gender-based human equality. The compelling feature that I came across, or rather which came into focus for me, was isolating the concept of the commodity being sold, and what it is sold for. The commodity is human bodies, and it is sold for physical gratification... consumption, after a fashion. It is peddled like a consumer good. I think this is harmful both to the consumer and to the consumed.
Should it be illegal?
I don't think pornography should be illegal, because I think that legislating what consenting adults do with their bodies as a form of expression is more wrong.
I am torn on prostitution. I don't think prostitution itself should ever be a crime, because that punishes the prostitute, compounding the problem rather than solving it. I think that perhaps rather than criminalizing it, it should be legalized and regulated, and in fact I think that the strongest laws out there should be "Madam laws", which require anyone acting as a manager to be credentialed and licensed, and regulate madam fees. It should be an intensive training (perhaps a graduate program) and an expensive license, and there should also be a prostitution tax which goes into a fund for therapy and education for prostitutes and former prostitutes. Practicing as a madam without a license should be a big, big crime, as should "black market" prostitution, which should simply be considered human trafficking. Further, all prostitutes should need to maintain a state-issued license, and in order to maintain it they would undergo regular STD testing. In order to help minimize human trafficking, in order to obtain a license they must be citizens.
"I got a double bachelors in sociology and pimpology with a masters in whorology."
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
I like your idea, Nigel! But what about the most desperate people who can't obtain a license because they aren't citizens, can't afford the fees, or whatever? Maybe just a better safety net in place for everybody would fix that?
I don't think they should be punished, and I do think there should be a better safety net in place. Testing and licensing for prostitutes should be free, subsidized by the prostitution tax paid by madams. The citizen/non-citizen issue is really important; other countries with legalized prostitution have major problems with women and girls being imported, essentially as slaves, usually under false pretenses. A work visa is not enough to prevent this from becoming an issue. The point is to try to ensure that women are becoming prostitutes of their own free will, to the greatest extent it is possible to do so.
The idea is to minimize exploitation as much as possible.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on October 05, 2012, 06:23:57 PM
The real question in my mind is, given that prostitution was legal and safe and clean and nice, with benefits, how many people would actually choose it as a career? Maybe more than I think?
We're dealing with two stereotypes here - the abused basket case who gets strung out on meth and pimped into it and Julia f'kin Roberts.
I can't wrap my head around the idea of some kid, at 12 or 13 years telling their careers advisor that they know it's going to take a lot of hard work but what they really want to be, when they leave university, is a cum dump for fat, balding middle aged creeps.
Probably a surprising number. I say this because one of my friends was, until recently, a marketing consultant for high-end prostitutes in the Bay area. Many of the girls have pimps, but his job was providing fee-based marketing services for girls who are operating independently. Most of them do have issues, most are in their twenties, and generally they are making a lot of money at this stage in their career. The problem, of course, is that they only last a few years, at which point hopefully they get out of it, because the alternative is ugly.
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on October 05, 2012, 07:54:12 PM
Quote from: TEXAS FAIRIES FOR ALL YOU SPAGS on October 05, 2012, 05:55:59 PM
Quote from: American Jackal on October 05, 2012, 05:37:50 PM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on October 05, 2012, 03:43:56 PM
Quote from: hunter s.durden on October 05, 2012, 06:29:55 AM
Quote from: A Very Hairy Monkey In An Ill-Fitting Tunic on October 04, 2012, 04:18:48 PM
Quote from: link=topic=33322.msg1213584#msg1213584 date=1349360157
Nigel; Really sorry if you addressed this already but it's midnight and there's 24 pages of conversation I haven't read, which, from a glance, look kind of painful to read.
I'm just really curious; you said your opinions have changed a lot in regards to sex work and said that that came from conversations here and your own research. I'm wondering what they changed FROM, what they changed TO, and what was the compelling feature that you came across that made that change happen?
When I came here, I believed that sex work can be empowering. I thought that sex work is simply providing a service that fills a need, and that it can be provided as a safe, sane, consensual exchange between equals.
Now, I believe that while under ideal circumstances the above would be true, those ideal circumstances are so unlikely as to contribute negligibly to the overall reality of sex work, and that sex work as it exists in reality contributes negatively to human equality, particularly gender-based human equality. The compelling feature that I came across, or rather which came into focus for me, was isolating the concept of the commodity being sold, and what it is sold for. The commodity is human bodies, and it is sold for physical gratification... consumption, after a fashion. It is peddled like a consumer good. I think this is harmful both to the consumer and to the consumed.
Should it be illegal?
I don't think pornography should be illegal, because I think that legislating what consenting adults do with their bodies as a form of expression is more wrong.
I am torn on prostitution. I don't think prostitution itself should ever be a crime, because that punishes the prostitute, compounding the problem rather than solving it. I think that perhaps rather than criminalizing it, it should be legalized and regulated, and in fact I think that the strongest laws out there should be "Madam laws", which require anyone acting as a manager to be credentialed and licensed, and regulate madam fees. It should be an intensive training (perhaps a graduate program) and an expensive license, and there should also be a prostitution tax which goes into a fund for therapy and education for prostitutes and former prostitutes. Practicing as a madam without a license should be a big, big crime, as should "black market" prostitution, which should simply be considered human trafficking. Further, all prostitutes should need to maintain a state-issued license, and in order to maintain it they would undergo regular STD testing. In order to help minimize human trafficking, in order to obtain a license they must be citizens.
"I got a double bachelors in sociology and pimpology with a masters in whorology."
:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
I like your idea, Nigel! But what about the most desperate people who can't obtain a license because they aren't citizens, can't afford the fees, or whatever? Maybe just a better safety net in place for everybody would fix that?
I don't think they should be punished, and I do think there should be a better safety net in place. Testing and licensing for prostitutes should be free, subsidized by the prostitution tax paid by madams. The citizen/non-citizen issue is really important; other countries with legalized prostitution have major problems with women and girls being imported, essentially as slaves, usually under false pretenses. A work visa is not enough to prevent this from becoming an issue. The point is to try to ensure that women are becoming prostitutes of their own free will, to the greatest extent it is possible to do so.
The idea is to minimize exploitation as much as possible.
THIS is ideal. Yes yes yes yes yes. 8)
Interesting little article from The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/global-development/poverty-matters/2012/jul/26/india-sex-workers-female-empowerment)
Also Nigel the idea you expressed sounds perfect.
Thanks you guys! And #### (that is your name now, in my head) that is a really interesting article, it sounds like a really important step towards equality and respect for sex workers and women is encapsulated in there, without either endorsing the "happy hooker" myth or diminishing the severity of the social conditions that lead to prostitution.
I want to highlight this quote:
QuoteSome had been married and returned to sex work full of pity for those women who had to put up with the privations and lack of freedom marriage brings.
I think it says a lot. Under social conditions where marriage includes "privations" and "lack of freedom", prostitution may indeed be an empowering alternative.
If you have emoji it's SQUID WHALE SQUID WHALE but otherwise its boxes.
I'll get bored of it soon enough.
Just to point out, to call that arrangement "marriage" is really a disservice to those who got married out of love and respect.
Not that that was your point, nor was it to say that all marriages are perfect exchanges of love, I just felt I needed to say something.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on October 06, 2012, 07:46:12 AM
Just to point out, to call that arrangement "marriage" is really a disservice to those who got married out of love and respect.
Not that that was your point, nor was it to say that all marriages are perfect exchanges of love, I just felt I needed to say something.
That was pretty much the purpose of picking out that line... to highlight that normal living conditions for women there are abysmal, so the fact that prostitution is a step up is not so much a glowing recommendation of prostitution but a pretty severe indictment of the inequality of women there.
so, 11 days late, but my take on the whole legal side of prostitution is I support the Nordic Model, where the women operating as prostitutes are not acting illegally, but men who pay for sex are committing the crime. On conviction the men are fined, and have the charge on record. It's actually decreased trafficking and a lot of street based prostitution. The organised crime side of things is simply too much risk and effort in Sweden. basically removing the anonymity of the purchasers has had an effect, and instead of women being prosecuted, they are given exit strategies. The vast majority of women in prostitution have come to it via a Morton's Fork, the UK figures for age of entering is scaryscaryscary (13-15 is quite common, according to Object, a UK based organisation who campaign against exploitation and objectification of women in society and the media.)
I'm pretty sure I've said this previously, that the legalisation/decriminalisation dopes not help the situation of trafficking of women and girls in Amsterdam. (I think in certain parts of Australia this is also the case)..
As for porn- I think it should be better regulated (banning that actually won't help, IMHO, it'll just make the whole thing seedier..) and that the physical and mental health of the participants would need regular screening..
Quote from: Pixie on October 18, 2012, 02:45:29 AM
so, 11 days late, but my take on the whole legal side of prostitution is I support the Nordic Model, where the women operating as prostitutes are not acting illegally, but men who pay for sex are committing the crime.
What about women hiring gigilos/"escorts"?
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 18, 2012, 02:46:21 AM
Quote from: Pixie on October 18, 2012, 02:45:29 AM
so, 11 days late, but my take on the whole legal side of prostitution is I support the Nordic Model, where the women operating as prostitutes are not acting illegally, but men who pay for sex are committing the crime.
What about women hiring gigilos/"escorts"?
Sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose, IMO.
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 03:30:59 AM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 18, 2012, 02:46:21 AM
Quote from: Pixie on October 18, 2012, 02:45:29 AM
so, 11 days late, but my take on the whole legal side of prostitution is I support the Nordic Model, where the women operating as prostitutes are not acting illegally, but men who pay for sex are committing the crime.
What about women hiring gigilos/"escorts"?
Sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose, IMO.
I'd say treating sex and someone's body as a thing that can be bought is pretty abhorrent whichever way it falls, although women are far less likely to buy sex. Straight male escorts are not a widespread thing.
These are the answers that I expected and hoped to hear.
Shouldn't have even asked, but my head is firmly lodged in my colon today.
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 03:30:59 AM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 18, 2012, 02:46:21 AM
Quote from: Pixie on October 18, 2012, 02:45:29 AM
so, 11 days late, but my take on the whole legal side of prostitution is I support the Nordic Model, where the women operating as prostitutes are not acting illegally, but men who pay for sex are committing the crime.
What about women hiring gigilos/"escorts"?
Sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose, IMO.
Oddly, male escorts are rarely dismissed and humiliated like female prostitutes. And, though I imagine more than a few abused ones are out there, gigalos are almost invariably portrayed by the media as smooth, clean, smart and even respectable. And, of course, they are there seeing to a
necessary job -- seeing to the needs of women who are either too wealthy or too unattractive to mingle like normal people. That's all bullshit of course, but that's what we're told about gigalos. The exact opposite of what we are told about prostitutes, even though they both exist for exactly the same reason and serve the same kind of clientele (aside from the assumption from male johns that prostitutes exist solely to be abused, insulted and taken advantage of).
Quote from: V3X on October 18, 2012, 04:02:08 AM
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 03:30:59 AM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 18, 2012, 02:46:21 AM
Quote from: Pixie on October 18, 2012, 02:45:29 AM
so, 11 days late, but my take on the whole legal side of prostitution is I support the Nordic Model, where the women operating as prostitutes are not acting illegally, but men who pay for sex are committing the crime.
What about women hiring gigilos/"escorts"?
Sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose, IMO.
Oddly, male escorts are rarely dismissed and humiliated like female prostitutes. And, though I imagine more than a few abused ones are out there, gigalos are almost invariably portrayed by the media as smooth, clean, smart and even respectable. And, of course, they are there seeing to a necessary job -- seeing to the needs of women who are either too wealthy or too unattractive to mingle like normal people. That's all bullshit of course, but that's what we're told about gigalos. The exact opposite of what we are told about prostitutes, even though they both exist for exactly the same reason and serve the same kind of clientele (aside from the assumption from male johns that prostitutes exist solely to be abused, insulted and taken advantage of).
Most male prostitutes sell their bodies to other men.
They usually don't die in their sleep.
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 18, 2012, 04:03:05 AM
Quote from: V3X on October 18, 2012, 04:02:08 AM
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 03:30:59 AM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 18, 2012, 02:46:21 AM
Quote from: Pixie on October 18, 2012, 02:45:29 AM
so, 11 days late, but my take on the whole legal side of prostitution is I support the Nordic Model, where the women operating as prostitutes are not acting illegally, but men who pay for sex are committing the crime.
What about women hiring gigilos/"escorts"?
Sauce for the gander is sauce for the goose, IMO.
Oddly, male escorts are rarely dismissed and humiliated like female prostitutes. And, though I imagine more than a few abused ones are out there, gigalos are almost invariably portrayed by the media as smooth, clean, smart and even respectable. And, of course, they are there seeing to a necessary job -- seeing to the needs of women who are either too wealthy or too unattractive to mingle like normal people. That's all bullshit of course, but that's what we're told about gigalos. The exact opposite of what we are told about prostitutes, even though they both exist for exactly the same reason and serve the same kind of clientele (aside from the assumption from male johns that prostitutes exist solely to be abused, insulted and taken advantage of).
Most male prostitutes sell their bodies to other men.
They usually don't die in their sleep.
Right, but for some reason that isn't the story we're told about male prostitutes.
Interestingly, media representation is more about presenting an idealized form of social norms in order to maintain the status quo than about presenting reality. You want to get into some interesting shit, look at how males and females are represented in young children's stories, and in what proportions.
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 06:09:04 AM
Interestingly, media representation is more about presenting an idealized form of social norms in order to maintain the status quo than about presenting reality. You want to get into some interesting shit, look at how males and females are represented in young children's stories, and in what proportions.
BBC's Woman's Hour have done features on this. and many UK feminists are alarmed by the BBC's Cbeebies channel (for the pre-school age group) and how under-represented women and girls are, and how the male characters seem to have all the action roles. Of course mainstream media in general is not awesome with it's representations of women.
Get this: Showtime even has a reality show (http://www.sho.com/sho/gigolos/home) about gigolos, casting them in a neutral-to-positive light. Imagine them doing that with female prostitutes. Not gonna happen. What you get are things like Hookers at the Point (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1407060/) which purports to be a documentary, but comes off as pretty exploitative.
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 06:09:04 AM
Interestingly, media representation is more about presenting an idealized form of social norms in order to maintain the status quo than about presenting reality.
Obviously, I'd think. Their owners have a vested interest in the status quo, and in pleasing fairy tales about how things are.
Tangentially related: I was just reading about a fascinating small experiment where a researcher reversed the genders in popular children's books as she was reading them to little boys 5 and under. With the genders reversed, the boys immediately noticed the lack of active male characters, were upset, and accused the researcher of "only liking girls and not liking boys".
Of course, for these boys such a reversal would have been extremely shocking and noticeable in contrast with the default signal they had been receiving all their lives. Little girls tend to notice the same thing and at some point usually ask the question "why aren't there many girls in stories?" but since they are raised with the default signal that female protagonists are a rarity, they are unlikely to be shocked and indignant about it at that age; it is the social norm.
If you had a link nearby, I'd be very interested to read up on this.
I don't have a link; it's referenced in chapter 4 of "Introduction to Sociology" by Giddens, Dunier, Applebaum, and Carr, and if I recall it's part of Statham's 1986 study of a group of parents consciously attempting nonsexist childrearing.
Oooh! You can get the paperback used for a penny on Amazon! http://www.amazon.com/Daughters-Sons-Experience-Non-Sexist-Childraising/dp/0631138854
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 04:37:16 PM
I don't have a link; it's referenced in chapter 4 of "Introduction to Sociology" by Giddens, Dunier, Applebaum, and Carr, and if I recall it's part of Statham's 1986 study of a group of parents consciously attempting nonsexist childrearing.
Jesus, where would you start? I mean, given that in that day and age, the people raising the kids still probably had a lot of baggage of their own. When I was a kid, I took feminism as a GIVEN, but I had no fucking idea at all that half of EVERYTHING around me was geared to reinforce gender roles...And as evidenced by the recent threads, I STILL haven't got even 10% of it down.
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 04:39:03 PM
Oooh! You can get the paperback used for a penny on Amazon! http://www.amazon.com/Daughters-Sons-Experience-Non-Sexist-Childraising/dp/0631138854
Buying this.
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 18, 2012, 04:55:46 PM
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 04:37:16 PM
I don't have a link; it's referenced in chapter 4 of "Introduction to Sociology" by Giddens, Dunier, Applebaum, and Carr, and if I recall it's part of Statham's 1986 study of a group of parents consciously attempting nonsexist childrearing.
Jesus, where would you start? I mean, given that in that day and age, the people raising the kids still probably had a lot of baggage of their own. When I was a kid, I took feminism as a GIVEN, but I had no fucking idea at all that half of EVERYTHING around me was geared to reinforce gender roles...And as evidenced by the recent threads, I STILL haven't got even 10% of it down.
Children's media has improved slightly since then, but unfortunately, not a whole lot. I'd love it if someone would do an analysis (fuck, maybe I'll do it, where's my project notebook) of current kids' media for the ratios of male to female characters, and also look at the roles the characters enact; particularly whether there are males enacting traditional female roles, because it seems that while our society has progressed to the point where depicting women as police officers and doctors and firefighters is accepted, depicting men as primary caregivers or nurturers is still quite rare, unless as a fulcrum for comedic plot development.
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 18, 2012, 04:56:51 PM
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 04:39:03 PM
Oooh! You can get the paperback used for a penny on Amazon! http://www.amazon.com/Daughters-Sons-Experience-Non-Sexist-Childraising/dp/0631138854
Buying this.
Good... I thought about it, but realized it would be a waste because my reading load is already more than I can keep up with and it might take me years to get to it.
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 05:08:39 PM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 18, 2012, 04:55:46 PM
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 04:37:16 PM
I don't have a link; it's referenced in chapter 4 of "Introduction to Sociology" by Giddens, Dunier, Applebaum, and Carr, and if I recall it's part of Statham's 1986 study of a group of parents consciously attempting nonsexist childrearing.
Jesus, where would you start? I mean, given that in that day and age, the people raising the kids still probably had a lot of baggage of their own. When I was a kid, I took feminism as a GIVEN, but I had no fucking idea at all that half of EVERYTHING around me was geared to reinforce gender roles...And as evidenced by the recent threads, I STILL haven't got even 10% of it down.
Children's media has improved slightly since then, but unfortunately, not a whole lot. I'd love it if someone would do an analysis (fuck, maybe I'll do it, where's my project notebook) of current kids' media for the ratios of male to female characters, and also look at the roles the characters enact; particularly whether there are males enacting traditional female roles, because it seems that while our society has progressed to the point where depicting women as police officers and doctors and firefighters is accepted, depicting men as primary caregivers or nurturers is still quite rare, unless as a fulcrum for comedic plot development.
In the 80s, there were several sitcoms (Charles in Charge, etc) where the idea of a man in the home raising kids WAS the "bit". No jokes were written; they were not necessary.
They also had nice, neat slots for elderly people, too (they were interchangeable with smartass, precocious 7 year olds in the formula).
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 18, 2012, 05:10:56 PM
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 05:08:39 PM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 18, 2012, 04:55:46 PM
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 04:37:16 PM
I don't have a link; it's referenced in chapter 4 of "Introduction to Sociology" by Giddens, Dunier, Applebaum, and Carr, and if I recall it's part of Statham's 1986 study of a group of parents consciously attempting nonsexist childrearing.
Jesus, where would you start? I mean, given that in that day and age, the people raising the kids still probably had a lot of baggage of their own. When I was a kid, I took feminism as a GIVEN, but I had no fucking idea at all that half of EVERYTHING around me was geared to reinforce gender roles...And as evidenced by the recent threads, I STILL haven't got even 10% of it down.
Children's media has improved slightly since then, but unfortunately, not a whole lot. I'd love it if someone would do an analysis (fuck, maybe I'll do it, where's my project notebook) of current kids' media for the ratios of male to female characters, and also look at the roles the characters enact; particularly whether there are males enacting traditional female roles, because it seems that while our society has progressed to the point where depicting women as police officers and doctors and firefighters is accepted, depicting men as primary caregivers or nurturers is still quite rare, unless as a fulcrum for comedic plot development.
In the 80s, there were several sitcoms (Charles in Charge, etc) where the idea of a man in the home raising kids WAS the "bit". No jokes were written; they were not necessary.
They also had nice, neat slots for elderly people, too (they were interchangeable with smartass, precocious 7 year olds in the formula).
Oh god, I remember that. Another very similar 1980's sitcom premise was "Divorced Dad With Custody", because what could be funnier than a man
actually raising his own children? Ho ho ho! So improbable!
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 18, 2012, 02:51:34 PM
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 06:09:04 AM
Interestingly, media representation is more about presenting an idealized form of social norms in order to maintain the status quo than about presenting reality.
Obviously, I'd think. Their owners have a vested interest in the status quo, and in pleasing fairy tales about how things are.
While I'm sure that's a significant factor, I also think a part of the explanation is something far more boring: if what you propose to produce is too unusual, the media people tasked with okaying it either won't get it, or will feel it's too weird.
And there's this thing Chomsky talked about in the documentary "Manufacturing Consent" (no idea what the overlap is with the book of the same title) – that (commerical, American) television is so fast-paced that you basically don't have the time to say anything new; if you can't package an idea in a soundbite comprised of familiar words and ideas, you're going to get interrupted or edited, because introducing a new thought requires a bit of thought.
That probably applies to the process behind making TV as well – I take it that mainstream media is a very fast-paced business, and if you sit down with some execs and start trying to explain why they should make your thing despite its unconventional gender roles, there's a pretty good chance you're gonna get interrupted, and they might never get it.
This all ties in, for me, with the binary choice between conformity and marginalization. Creatively repackaged status quo is just easier to get produced, not only because of the interests of those who own the means of production, but also because people can have a very negative reaction to nonconformism – especially when they have to keep in mind what other people will think, which media execs always, always do.
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 05:21:34 PM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 18, 2012, 05:10:56 PM
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 05:08:39 PM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 18, 2012, 04:55:46 PM
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 04:37:16 PM
I don't have a link; it's referenced in chapter 4 of "Introduction to Sociology" by Giddens, Dunier, Applebaum, and Carr, and if I recall it's part of Statham's 1986 study of a group of parents consciously attempting nonsexist childrearing.
Jesus, where would you start? I mean, given that in that day and age, the people raising the kids still probably had a lot of baggage of their own. When I was a kid, I took feminism as a GIVEN, but I had no fucking idea at all that half of EVERYTHING around me was geared to reinforce gender roles...And as evidenced by the recent threads, I STILL haven't got even 10% of it down.
Children's media has improved slightly since then, but unfortunately, not a whole lot. I'd love it if someone would do an analysis (fuck, maybe I'll do it, where's my project notebook) of current kids' media for the ratios of male to female characters, and also look at the roles the characters enact; particularly whether there are males enacting traditional female roles, because it seems that while our society has progressed to the point where depicting women as police officers and doctors and firefighters is accepted, depicting men as primary caregivers or nurturers is still quite rare, unless as a fulcrum for comedic plot development.
In the 80s, there were several sitcoms (Charles in Charge, etc) where the idea of a man in the home raising kids WAS the "bit". No jokes were written; they were not necessary.
They also had nice, neat slots for elderly people, too (they were interchangeable with smartass, precocious 7 year olds in the formula).
Oh god, I remember that. Another very similar 1980's sitcom premise was "Divorced Dad With Custody", because what could be funnier than a man actually raising his own children? Ho ho ho! So improbable!
When I was a little kid, I actually got made fun of by the other kids at school for having divorced parents and being mostly raised by my dad.
I also got made fun of because we only
rented our house, so I clearly lived in a town full of assholes at the time, but still. The divorced dad raising a kid thing was not only uncommon (or at least not commonly discussed in polite society) but such a break from the social norm that it was grounds for being socially ostracized.
Quote from: East Coast Hustle on October 18, 2012, 06:43:42 PM
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 05:21:34 PM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 18, 2012, 05:10:56 PM
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 05:08:39 PM
Quote from: Man Yellow on October 18, 2012, 04:55:46 PM
Quote from: Man Green on October 18, 2012, 04:37:16 PM
I don't have a link; it's referenced in chapter 4 of "Introduction to Sociology" by Giddens, Dunier, Applebaum, and Carr, and if I recall it's part of Statham's 1986 study of a group of parents consciously attempting nonsexist childrearing.
Jesus, where would you start? I mean, given that in that day and age, the people raising the kids still probably had a lot of baggage of their own. When I was a kid, I took feminism as a GIVEN, but I had no fucking idea at all that half of EVERYTHING around me was geared to reinforce gender roles...And as evidenced by the recent threads, I STILL haven't got even 10% of it down.
Children's media has improved slightly since then, but unfortunately, not a whole lot. I'd love it if someone would do an analysis (fuck, maybe I'll do it, where's my project notebook) of current kids' media for the ratios of male to female characters, and also look at the roles the characters enact; particularly whether there are males enacting traditional female roles, because it seems that while our society has progressed to the point where depicting women as police officers and doctors and firefighters is accepted, depicting men as primary caregivers or nurturers is still quite rare, unless as a fulcrum for comedic plot development.
In the 80s, there were several sitcoms (Charles in Charge, etc) where the idea of a man in the home raising kids WAS the "bit". No jokes were written; they were not necessary.
They also had nice, neat slots for elderly people, too (they were interchangeable with smartass, precocious 7 year olds in the formula).
Oh god, I remember that. Another very similar 1980's sitcom premise was "Divorced Dad With Custody", because what could be funnier than a man actually raising his own children? Ho ho ho! So improbable!
When I was a little kid, I actually got made fun of by the other kids at school for having divorced parents and being mostly raised by my dad.
I also got made fun of because we only rented our house, so I clearly lived in a town full of assholes at the time, but still. The divorced dad raising a kid thing was not only uncommon (or at least not commonly discussed in polite society) but such a break from the social norm that it was grounds for being socially ostracized.
I was brought up by a divorced dad, in a town where all the divorced kids were brought up by their mothers. This pissed me off, no end because they got away with murder and I used to get the shit kicked out of me if I got caught doing anything :argh!:
On the plus side - I found that the ability to take a beating without flinching is a fucking invaluable lifeskill. :lulz:
:lulz:
Yeah, that too.