http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Delhi_gang_rape_case
This sort of puts a damper on the "learn to protect yourself" argument. The couple in this case had no chance to escape or even fight effectively.
About the only good thing to say about it is the actions of the police following the incident (though not, apparently, in the hours leading up to it).
When I taught self-defense, I actually taught a lot more about awareness than self-defence. Except in low-level incidents, you're likely to be attacked by someone better armed than you, with far more people on their side than you, and in a place of their choosing, prepared for the attack.
As such, the best tactic is avoidance first and foremost. And that isn't necessarily always doable, even if you are highly aware.
Even when I was at the height of my fitness, and doing two hour daily martial arts sessions, I couldn't have taken on six armed people in a locked bus. Certainly not while protecting someone. Maybe not even with a firearm - in close quarters, a knife often beats a gun, especially if the knife is already in the hand and the gun is still in the holster. I probably wouldn't have noticed something was wrong until the bus deviated from it's route and locked the doors, either. In other words, things would have gone as they otherwise did, and all my training and ability in applied violence and the avoidance thereof wouldn't have made the slightest difference.
I've tried to make it clear so often when teaching that if you're at a point that you're actually fighting, then something has already gone terribly wrong. So many people don't seem to get it though. "When can we skip this boring shit and get onto the "punching people in the balls" part?" Trying to impart my mindset on these things is so difficult, though, and I can only believe it's down to people believing they are more skilled at violence than they think (Dunning-Kruger) and that violence they see on TV is like violence in real life (rarely the case).
It's not like there is a magic bullet that can ensure safety. You can take sensible steps and precautions. You can learn a martial art or go on some sort of combatives course. But unless you're psychic, you can never be certain. And against a sufficiently motivated and intelligent attacker, there may well be no defence. I mean, if I had an overriding need to attack someone, I wouldn't let them be in a position to be able to defend themselves. So why assume your potential attacker will be any more generous?
That is a horrible thing. It seems to have stirred up a whole shit storm of outrage, I hope the momentum continues and the victims recover. My mind is kind of blown by this. All the shit that has happened in my life, I've never been raped to the point where part of my intestines had to be removed due to such severe damage that gangrene was a potential issue.
I have the petty, bitter thought that the only reason this is such a thing is because the woman was with a man and thus properly escorted and thus - not automatically to blame.
Gotta stop and think about this a little bit.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 26, 2012, 09:07:35 PM
That is a horrible thing. It seems to have stirred up a whole shit storm of outrage, I hope the momentum continues and the victims recover. My mind is kind of blown by this. All the shit that has happened in my life, I've never been raped to the point where part of my intestines had to be removed due to such severe damage that gangrene was a potential issue.
I have the petty, bitter thought that the only reason this is such a thing is because the woman was with a man and thus properly escorted and thus - not automatically to blame.
Gotta stop and think about this a little bit.
Another way to say it is that she was taking reasonable precautions and got caught in a very unreasonable situation.
Nobody blamed her, and there's no reason to expect they would have, had she been on the bus alone.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on December 26, 2012, 09:32:22 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on December 26, 2012, 09:07:35 PM
That is a horrible thing. It seems to have stirred up a whole shit storm of outrage, I hope the momentum continues and the victims recover. My mind is kind of blown by this. All the shit that has happened in my life, I've never been raped to the point where part of my intestines had to be removed due to such severe damage that gangrene was a potential issue.
I have the petty, bitter thought that the only reason this is such a thing is because the woman was with a man and thus properly escorted and thus - not automatically to blame.
Gotta stop and think about this a little bit.
Another way to say it is that she was taking reasonable precautions and got caught in a very unreasonable situation.
Nobody blamed her, and there's no reason to expect they would have, had she been on the bus alone.
My head is not happy fun times about this. Too much noise.
My wife's been following this case rather closely. She's always told me that she's never felt safe in Delhi.
(http://arkitipintel.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/rapex-condom4.jpg)
It may not be protection, but at least it is revenge.
Quote from: Pergamos on December 27, 2012, 06:55:59 AM
(http://arkitipintel.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/rapex-condom4.jpg)
It may not be protection, but at least it is revenge.
If she had been wearing that she would be dead now, not just in hospital.
Quote from: deadfong on December 27, 2012, 01:02:46 AM
My wife's been following this case rather closely. She's always told me that she's never felt safe in Delhi.
My sister has considered travelling to India, but she has said she would never go there alone, because of the increasingly negative attitude towards women there. I don't know enough about India to know why this is the case, but I know it wasn't always like that.
Quote from: Cain on December 27, 2012, 12:12:02 PM
Quote from: deadfong on December 27, 2012, 01:02:46 AM
My wife's been following this case rather closely. She's always told me that she's never felt safe in Delhi.
My sister has considered travelling to India, but she has said she would never go there alone, because of the increasingly negative attitude towards women there. I don't know enough about India to know why this is the case, but I know it wasn't always like that.
My wife has female friends who say the same thing about Delhi, and she says that she's never felt that way in other parts of India, but only in Delhi and Jaipur, which are both in the north.
While the culture in India is pretty chauvinistic everywhere, she says it's only in the north that she fears for her safety, where the chauvinism seems to be taken to an extreme, and that seems to be the consensus among our friends who are from or who have been to India.
I have to say, I felt a little uncomfortable in Delhi, but that might be because I knew my wife didn't like it there. However, neither my wife nor I ever felt any concern or fear in Bombay, Pune, or Bangalore - they all seem much more cosmopolitan. My wife's from Pune, so I've been there several times, and I have to say it seems fairly progressive to me, as Indian cities go.
I used to interact with a young woman from Mumbai, as Bombay is called now, online. I think we were both looking for someone outside our own culture to interact with so we could feel worldly, or something like that. In any case she said that the streets and public transit are not at all safe for women there. She has to be very careful not to make eye contact, as it is taken as an invitation to rape, and random groping of women on busses is not uncommon at all. Apparently the women usually do not react, as reacting can provoke worse.
This is purely anecdotal, and based on what I was told by a young woman who was decidedly dramatic, so I am not claiming it is anything like authoritative, but it does indicate that even if Mumbai is better than Delhi it's still got a lot of problems in those respects.
Quote from: Faust on December 27, 2012, 11:48:07 AM
Quote from: Pergamos on December 27, 2012, 06:55:59 AM
(http://arkitipintel.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/rapex-condom4.jpg)
It may not be protection, but at least it is revenge.
If she had been wearing that she would be dead now, not just in hospital.
Yep, not a smart choice for people who values their lives.
The cumulative advantages when enough women do it would be worth considering though. All you need is enough women willing to martyr themselves for the cause.
Quote from: deadfong on December 27, 2012, 03:07:57 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 27, 2012, 12:12:02 PM
Quote from: deadfong on December 27, 2012, 01:02:46 AM
My wife's been following this case rather closely. She's always told me that she's never felt safe in Delhi.
My sister has considered travelling to India, but she has said she would never go there alone, because of the increasingly negative attitude towards women there. I don't know enough about India to know why this is the case, but I know it wasn't always like that.
My wife has female friends who say the same thing about Delhi, and she says that she's never felt that way in other parts of India, but only in Delhi and Jaipur, which are both in the north.
While the culture in India is pretty chauvinistic everywhere, she says it's only in the north that she fears for her safety, where the chauvinism seems to be taken to an extreme, and that seems to be the consensus among our friends who are from or who have been to India.
I have to say, I felt a little uncomfortable in Delhi, but that might be because I knew my wife didn't like it there. However, neither my wife nor I ever felt any concern or fear in Bombay, Pune, or Bangalore - they all seem much more cosmopolitan. My wife's from Pune, so I've been there several times, and I have to say it seems fairly progressive to me, as Indian cities go.
Interesting, the differences that are there.
Bombay makes sense, as you say, it's
much more cosmopolitan. Hating takes up too much time, which could be used to make money trading with the obese sheiks who oil their beards in Dubai.
I'll definitely recommend those to my sister as a possibility for travel....I wonder if the differences have anything to do with religion/historical strongholds of the British Empire/poverty. I would guess all those are linked as factors, and no doubt the religious resurgence in India is not evenly distributed...
How are the Naxalite areas for womens rights? If you know them in any detail, that is. I would imagine the Maoists would in theory be all for equal rights, but theory is frequently compromised when working with the local culture, especially when one is aiming for a rural insurgency. I had friends who said the Maoist areas were very clean and safe, but this was nearly a decade ago now, so lots has changed in India.
The victim has died (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57561187/indian-gang-rape-victim-dies-in-hospital/).
Quote from: Juana Go? on December 28, 2012, 10:44:20 PM
The victim has died (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57561187/indian-gang-rape-victim-dies-in-hospital/).
Well, shit.
Statement from the hospital says she "died peacefully".
Apparently they have a different definition of "peaceful" to what I do.
Quote from: Signora Pæsior on December 29, 2012, 12:08:29 AM
Statement from the hospital says she "died peacefully".
Apparently they have a different definition of "peaceful" to what I do.
I hope it means, "Died under the influence of power painkillers, antidepressants, and anything else to give her artificial happiness."
Quote from: Cain on December 28, 2012, 01:05:32 PM
How are the Naxalite areas for womens rights? If you know them in any detail, that is. I would imagine the Maoists would in theory be all for equal rights, but theory is frequently compromised when working with the local culture, especially when one is aiming for a rural insurgency. I had friends who said the Maoist areas were very clean and safe, but this was nearly a decade ago now, so lots has changed in India.
You know, I'm not sure about their stance on women's rights. First of all, I've never had the sense of a central Naxalite organization, but the Indian newspapers I've read typically just report on another dozen police killed in Naxalite ambush and things like that, and don't really go into details about the issue. (The police don't seem to be able to get a handle on the Naxalites at all; last I heard, the government was mulling over sending in regular army troops, because that's working so well in Jammu and Kashmir :roll:) At least
some of the Naxalite groups have essentially degenerated into gangs who abuse and extort the villagers they're supposed to be "liberating."
I've been stuck deep in dissertation writing for a while now, so I haven't been able to get to it, but I want to read
Red Sun by Sudeep Chakravarti - I gather he's a reporter who's spent quite a bit of time with the Maoists in Naxalite-affected areas. I can't say how good or accurate it is, but it's the only in-depth account that I can think of off the top of my head.
I've never been to the eastern half of India, so I can't say, but my wife tells me that men from Bihar have a reputation of being thugs - not in the Kali-worshiping sense, but just goons - and Bihar generally as being a land of criminals, but as I say, that's just the reputation, I don't know how much truth there is to it.
Quote from: Pergamos on December 27, 2012, 08:21:00 PM
I used to interact with a young woman from Mumbai, as Bombay is called now, online. I think we were both looking for someone outside our own culture to interact with so we could feel worldly, or something like that. In any case she said that the streets and public transit are not at all safe for women there. She has to be very careful not to make eye contact, as it is taken as an invitation to rape, and random groping of women on busses is not uncommon at all. Apparently the women usually do not react, as reacting can provoke worse.
This is purely anecdotal, and based on what I was told by a young woman who was decidedly dramatic, so I am not claiming it is anything like authoritative, but it does indicate that even if Mumbai is better than Delhi it's still got a lot of problems in those respects.
My wife's told me that the trains in Bombay are so crowded that, yeah, women are inevitably groped. That is, I gather, a fact of life on public transport everywhere in India. She did tell me that looking a man in the eye wouldn't get a woman raped, per se, but could very well encourage further harassment. And she has told me that she never travels alone by bus or train at night anywhere, even in her home town, and Pune is generally speaking a pretty safe place. So there's that.
Quote from: Juana Go? on December 28, 2012, 10:44:20 PM
The victim has died (http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57561187/indian-gang-rape-victim-dies-in-hospital/).
. . .
QuoteSeparately, authorities in Punjab state took action Thursday when an 18-year-old woman killed herself by drinking poison a month after she told police she was gang-raped.
QuoteAuthorities in the eastern state of Chhattisgarh also suspended a police officer on accusations he refused to register a rape complaint from a woman who said she had been attacked by a driver.
I hope things will change.
Quote from: deadfong on December 29, 2012, 01:12:09 AM
Quote from: Cain on December 28, 2012, 01:05:32 PM
How are the Naxalite areas for womens rights? If you know them in any detail, that is. I would imagine the Maoists would in theory be all for equal rights, but theory is frequently compromised when working with the local culture, especially when one is aiming for a rural insurgency. I had friends who said the Maoist areas were very clean and safe, but this was nearly a decade ago now, so lots has changed in India.
You know, I'm not sure about their stance on women's rights. First of all, I've never had the sense of a central Naxalite organization, but the Indian newspapers I've read typically just report on another dozen police killed in Naxalite ambush and things like that, and don't really go into details about the issue. (The police don't seem to be able to get a handle on the Naxalites at all; last I heard, the government was mulling over sending in regular army troops, because that's working so well in Jammu and Kashmir :roll:) At least some of the Naxalite groups have essentially degenerated into gangs who abuse and extort the villagers they're supposed to be "liberating."
I've been stuck deep in dissertation writing for a while now, so I haven't been able to get to it, but I want to read Red Sun by Sudeep Chakravarti - I gather he's a reporter who's spent quite a bit of time with the Maoists in Naxalite-affected areas. I can't say how good or accurate it is, but it's the only in-depth account that I can think of off the top of my head.
I've never been to the eastern half of India, so I can't say, but my wife tells me that men from Bihar have a reputation of being thugs - not in the Kali-worshiping sense, but just goons - and Bihar generally as being a land of criminals, but as I say, that's just the reputation, I don't know how much truth there is to it.
I'll have to give that a read then. Thanks again.
Also, everyone, you may want to know a crowd of young Indians decided to demonstrate in Delhi on Christmas Eve. There is a strong feeling that the current government simply does not care about the ongoing assaults on women and recent incidents, such as the one Roger posted about, have confirmed that feeling. So, protest time.
The police responded by dispersing the protestors with lathis. A lathi, for those who don't know, is a cane with a metal tip. Used in coordination by riot police, they are very capable of crippling people, or even killing them. Over a dozen lathi charges were carried out against unarmed protestors, with more than a few incidents of the police beating protestors lying prone and posing no threat into unconsciousness.
There are laws about where to protest in Delhi, and some of those laws were broken. But nothing justified that kind of response from the police there.
I can't even...
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/12/29/had-the-girl-simply-surrendered/
QuoteHad the girl simply surrendered (and not resisted) when surrounded by six men, she would not have lost her intestine. Why was she out with her boyfriend at 10 pm?" These comments made by an agricultural scientist [Dr Anita Shukla] at a seminar organised by the police provoked an outrage in Madhya Pradesh on Thursday, and demands for punitive action against her.
I honest to fuck can not believe someone masquerading as a human being would say something like that.
Quote from: Luna on December 30, 2012, 02:12:23 AM
I can't even...
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/12/29/had-the-girl-simply-surrendered/
QuoteHad the girl simply surrendered (and not resisted) when surrounded by six men, she would not have lost her intestine. Why was she out with her boyfriend at 10 pm?" These comments made by an agricultural scientist [Dr Anita Shukla] at a seminar organised by the police provoked an outrage in Madhya Pradesh on Thursday, and demands for punitive action against her.
I honest to fuck can not believe someone masquerading as a human being would say something like that.
I don't even know what to say at this point. I've written and deleted about a dozen replies. There are no adequate descriptors.
Quote from: Luna on December 30, 2012, 02:12:23 AM
I can't even...
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/12/29/had-the-girl-simply-surrendered/
QuoteHad the girl simply surrendered (and not resisted) when surrounded by six men, she would not have lost her intestine. Why was she out with her boyfriend at 10 pm?" These comments made by an agricultural scientist [Dr Anita Shukla] at a seminar organised by the police provoked an outrage in Madhya Pradesh on Thursday, and demands for punitive action against her.
I honest to fuck can not believe someone masquerading as a human being would say something like that.
So basically, even when we follow all the bullshit fucking rules about our dress, behaviour, etc, it's still our fault.
All right, then.
:argh!:
Quote from: Signora Pæsior on December 30, 2012, 09:14:25 AM
Quote from: Luna on December 30, 2012, 02:12:23 AM
I can't even...
http://freethoughtblogs.com/greta/2012/12/29/had-the-girl-simply-surrendered/
QuoteHad the girl simply surrendered (and not resisted) when surrounded by six men, she would not have lost her intestine. Why was she out with her boyfriend at 10 pm?" These comments made by an agricultural scientist [Dr Anita Shukla] at a seminar organised by the police provoked an outrage in Madhya Pradesh on Thursday, and demands for punitive action against her.
I honest to fuck can not believe someone masquerading as a human being would say something like that.
So basically, even when we follow all the bullshit fucking rules about our dress, behaviour, etc, it's still our fault.
All right, then.
:argh!:
From the same link, part of the blogger's reply to the horrible comment above.
QuoteRape victims get blamed when they resist... and when they don't.
When rape victims don't resist, people ask them, "Why didn't you fight back? Why didn't you scream for help? if only you'd fought back, maybe this wouldn't have happened."
And when rape victims do resist, people — such as Anita Shukla — ask them, "Why did you fight back? Why did you scream for help? You only made it worse."
So how about this. Hear me out, I know this is a little out there, but just for a wild change of pace, let's try this instead: "If these six men hadn't raped and beaten her, she would not have lost her intestine. If these six men hadn't raped and beaten her, she would not have died."
Expecting it not to be the victim's fault is where fantasy meets reality.
Quote from: Cain on December 29, 2012, 09:21:29 AM
Quote from: deadfong on December 29, 2012, 01:12:09 AM
Quote from: Cain on December 28, 2012, 01:05:32 PM
How are the Naxalite areas for womens rights? If you know them in any detail, that is. I would imagine the Maoists would in theory be all for equal rights, but theory is frequently compromised when working with the local culture, especially when one is aiming for a rural insurgency. I had friends who said the Maoist areas were very clean and safe, but this was nearly a decade ago now, so lots has changed in India.
You know, I'm not sure about their stance on women's rights. First of all, I've never had the sense of a central Naxalite organization, but the Indian newspapers I've read typically just report on another dozen police killed in Naxalite ambush and things like that, and don't really go into details about the issue. (The police don't seem to be able to get a handle on the Naxalites at all; last I heard, the government was mulling over sending in regular army troops, because that's working so well in Jammu and Kashmir :roll:) At least some of the Naxalite groups have essentially degenerated into gangs who abuse and extort the villagers they're supposed to be "liberating."
I've been stuck deep in dissertation writing for a while now, so I haven't been able to get to it, but I want to read Red Sun by Sudeep Chakravarti - I gather he's a reporter who's spent quite a bit of time with the Maoists in Naxalite-affected areas. I can't say how good or accurate it is, but it's the only in-depth account that I can think of off the top of my head.
I've never been to the eastern half of India, so I can't say, but my wife tells me that men from Bihar have a reputation of being thugs - not in the Kali-worshiping sense, but just goons - and Bihar generally as being a land of criminals, but as I say, that's just the reputation, I don't know how much truth there is to it.
I'll have to give that a read then. Thanks again.
Also, everyone, you may want to know a crowd of young Indians decided to demonstrate in Delhi on Christmas Eve. There is a strong feeling that the current government simply does not care about the ongoing assaults on women and recent incidents, such as the one Roger posted about, have confirmed that feeling. So, protest time.
The police responded by dispersing the protestors with lathis. A lathi, for those who don't know, is a cane with a metal tip. Used in coordination by riot police, they are very capable of crippling people, or even killing them. Over a dozen lathi charges were carried out against unarmed protestors, with more than a few incidents of the police beating protestors lying prone and posing no threat into unconsciousness.
There are laws about where to protest in Delhi, and some of those laws were broken. But nothing justified that kind of response from the police there.
I'm glad to hear that people are protesting. Maybe if the police were using their lathi on rapists instead of protestors things would be different.
The police are part of the problem. (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/28/world/asia/rape-victim-commits-suicide-in-india.html)
QuoteA 18-year-old girl who was gang-raped last month committed suicide after a police officer pressed her to drop the case and marry one of her attackers
Bump. Craig Murray (http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2013/04/india-and-women/) shares some insights from his own time spent in India:
QuoteYes, the stories about rape in India have touched on a very important point about the position of women in an increasingly oppressive and rabidly conservative Hindu society. But that is part of a much wider picture. In the UK a combination of India's historic anti-colonial role, its legend in hippy chic and latterly a reverence for economic growth appears to be handicapping a much needed airing of truths on just what a narrow, nationalist, repressive and bigoted country India is becoming.