http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/04/opinion/brooks-suffering-fools-gladly.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0
QuoteThe phrase originally came from William Tyndale's 1534 translation of the Bible. In it, Paul was ripping into the decadent citizens of Corinth for turning away from his own authoritative teaching and falling for a bunch of second-rate false apostles. "For ye suffers fool gladly," Paul says with withering sarcasm, "seeing ye yourselves are wise."
Today, the phrase is often used as an ambiguous compliment. It suggests that a person is so smart he has trouble tolerating people who are far below his own high standards. It is used to describe a person who is so passionately committed to a vital cause that he doesn't have time for social niceties toward those idiots who stand in its way. It is used to suggest a level of social courage; a person who has the guts to tell idiots what he really thinks.
Sure, it would be better if such people were nicer to those around them, the phrase implies, but this is a forgivable sin in one so talented. The actor Ed Harris's "penetrating gaze signals that this is a serious, somber man on a singular quest," a writer observed in The Toronto Sun. "He doesn't suffer fools gladly, if at all."
This article came along at the perfect time for me, because just last night I was thinking about how burnt out I am on the cynical superiority complex and smug faux-misanthropy that I seem to see everywhere, particularly among my intellectual/age peer group. Among cafe, bar, and internet hipsters who clutch their cloak of disdain for humanity closely around them to conceal their own insecurities and flaws... they hope.
I realized that I'm sick of it. I'm done with it. I'm out of patience for humoring it, let alone participating in it. I'm glad this article articulated so well what I was just beginning to think about... it's just another form of petty cruelty. It doesn't make us better people to look down on others, it just makes us brats.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 04, 2013, 04:12:02 PM
This article came along at the perfect time for me, because just last night I was thinking about how burnt out I am on the cynical superiority complex and smug faux-misanthropy that I seem to see everywhere, particularly among my intellectual/age peer group. Among cafe, bar, and internet hipsters who clutch their cloak of disdain for humanity closely around them to conceal their own insecurities and flaws... they hope.
I realized that I'm sick of it. I'm done with it. I'm out of patience for humoring it, let alone participating in it. I'm glad this article articulated so well what I was just beginning to think about... it's just another form of petty cruelty. It doesn't make us better people to look down on others, it just makes us brats.
I make a distinction...On one hand, I assume that most people that I deal with are in error (they believe things that aren't so)...Which doesn't make them fools, it makes them wrong, while on the other hand, I view large groups of primates as fools. What's that line from
Men in Black? "A person can be smart; people are stupid."
On the gripping hand, I also have a large amount of hope for humans. Despite their pettiness and mean-spirited meddling, they also do AMAZING things sometimes.
I think the best way to say this is that I love people, but am driven batshit by humanity.
Another way to say it is that a lot of human stupidity is forgiveable. They get tired. They get afraid. They get desperate. Or hell, maybe they just get bored. On top of all that, they have been denied a proper education by some very smart (and evil) people, and thus lack the critical thinking skills used to determine whether or not things are good for them, or bad for them. I'm thinking the "Fair Tax", right now.
Oh, yeah, and one other thing: The most annoying part of hearing someone say "People are all stupid" with a straight face is that they always seem to not be including themselves.
Edit to add: Also, calling people in a REGION "stupid" is incorrect. Seguin, Texas, for example, is STUFFED FULL OF ACTUAL STUPID PEOPLE. However, Stella also happens to live there, and SHE'S not stupid.
But isn't "people in Seguin are stupid" simply a conversationally useful way to say "the majority of people in Seguin are stupid"?
Wasn't the whole "anti-e-prime" fiasco a few years ago exactly about just this?
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 04, 2013, 04:59:28 PM
But isn't "people in Seguin are stupid" simply a conversationally useful way to say "the majority of people in Seguin are stupid"?
Wasn't the whole "anti-e-prime" fiasco a few years ago exactly about just this?
Yeah, but you CAN swing too far the other way, and speak in nothing BUT generalizations, I think. Also, you may have noticed that my 5 part stories have become a little upbeat. That's not because you have a kinder, gentler TGRR (perish the notion), but because I've been trying to see the world the way it really is...And bitter, endless disdain and pessimism is just as inaccurate as e-prime and
The Secret.
Saying "some dumbfuck from Seguin" would be okay, because there's no denying that there are dumbfucks in the world, and there's CERTAINLY no denying that there are no dumbfucks in Seguin...But saying "some guy from Seguin" as a means of implying that he's stupid isn't as okay.
This isn't to say that I won't rant about stupid people. I just plan to
aim better, so I don't shoot my OWN toe off.
Last thought: Some people ARE stupid, and DO fail to live up to my standards. This is usually in an industrial setting, where stupidity and lack of a set standard (no matter how arbitrary) will get someone killed.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 04, 2013, 04:47:09 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 04, 2013, 04:12:02 PM
This article came along at the perfect time for me, because just last night I was thinking about how burnt out I am on the cynical superiority complex and smug faux-misanthropy that I seem to see everywhere, particularly among my intellectual/age peer group. Among cafe, bar, and internet hipsters who clutch their cloak of disdain for humanity closely around them to conceal their own insecurities and flaws... they hope.
I realized that I'm sick of it. I'm done with it. I'm out of patience for humoring it, let alone participating in it. I'm glad this article articulated so well what I was just beginning to think about... it's just another form of petty cruelty. It doesn't make us better people to look down on others, it just makes us brats.
I make a distinction...On one hand, I assume that most people that I deal with are in error (they believe things that aren't so)...Which doesn't make them fools, it makes them wrong, while on the other hand, I view large groups of primates as fools. What's that line from Men in Black? "A person can be smart; people are stupid."
On the gripping hand, I also have a large amount of hope for humans. Despite their pettiness and mean-spirited meddling, they also do AMAZING things sometimes.
I think the best way to say this is that I love people, but am driven batshit by humanity.
Another way to say it is that a lot of human stupidity is forgiveable. They get tired. They get afraid. They get desperate. Or hell, maybe they just get bored. On top of all that, they have been denied a proper education by some very smart (and evil) people, and thus lack the critical thinking skills used to determine whether or not things are good for them, or bad for them. I'm thinking the "Fair Tax", right now.
Yes, all of this. Especially the fact that people in unfair circumstances are the people denied the resources to be "smart".
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 04, 2013, 05:19:13 PM
Yes, all of this. Especially the fact that people in unfair circumstances are the people denied the resources to be "smart".
Yep. Because even though intelligence and education are two separate things, they definitely influence each other.
Examples:
Guy A has tools, but no experience in using them. He's stupid with respect to machinery, but maybe smart in other areas.
Guy B is a total moron with a degree from Harvard. Unless he is elected president, he is stupid.
Guy C is a very smart but very poor kid from a shitty school district. In many ways, he will act stupid. In other ways, he will run circles around you.
Guy D is a smart guy with a narrow education. He may be brilliant at circuit board design, but when the conversation goes to politics, he puts on his stupid mask and starts talking about how amazing Sarah Palin is.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 04, 2013, 04:51:06 PM
Oh, yeah, and one other thing: The most annoying part of hearing someone say "People are all stupid" with a straight face is that they always seem to not be including themselves.
Edit to add: Also, calling people in a REGION "stupid" is incorrect. Seguin, Texas, for example, is STUFFED FULL OF ACTUAL STUPID PEOPLE. However, Stella also happens to live there, and SHE'S not stupid.
Yes; if people are stupid, than I'm stupid and you're stupid. We're all a bunch of dumbfucks, actually, who make mistakes left and right... foreseeable mistakes, from those with the perspective to be able to see where they'll go wrong. We are all WILLFULLY blinded by wishful thinking and short term gain.
Take the Smartest Guy in the Room. Have you seen the movie by the same name, about the Enron execs? They KNEW they were smarter than everybody, and they laughed about how stupid everyone else was while planning rolling blackouts through California. How stupid is it to endanger your own people in order to make some extra money? But they employed the illusion of their own superiority, and therefore the inflated notion of their human worth, to justify hurting millions of people in order to benefit themselves. And then they ended up in prison.
"Those people are stupid" is quite possibly the heart of evil, because it justifies either doing terrible things to other people or letting terrible things happen to other people.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 04, 2013, 05:24:57 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 04, 2013, 05:19:13 PM
Yes, all of this. Especially the fact that people in unfair circumstances are the people denied the resources to be "smart".
Yep. Because even though intelligence and education are two separate things, they definitely influence each other.
Examples:
Guy A has tools, but no experience in using them. He's stupid with respect to machinery, but maybe smart in other areas.
Guy B is a total moron with a degree from Harvard. Unless he is elected president, he is stupid.
Guy C is a very smart but very poor kid from a shitty school district. In many ways, he will act stupid. In other ways, he will run circles around you.
Guy D is a smart guy with a narrow education. He may be brilliant at circuit board design, but when the conversation goes to politics, he puts on his stupid mask and starts talking about how amazing Sarah Palin is.
Yes... we've come to equate "disadvantaged", "ignorant", and "uninformed" with "stupid". To make matters worse, we seem to have defined "stupid" as "undeserving of good things". People who are "stupid" are
bad people. They
deserve what's coming to them.
We should probably define a few terms here:
Uneducated - While a person may be smart or stupid, they lack the tools to put what brainpower they have to use, or to optimum use.
Stupid - The condition of ignoring skills learned when attempting a task or conversation.
Willfully ignorant - The condition of NOT WANTING the tools to use your intelligence, because you've put on a uniform that disagrees with those tools for one reason or another.
Smart - The condition of having the brains, education, and emotional stability required to make good decisions.
Fool. - One who blindly follows the reasoning of another, because thinking for themselves is either too much bother, or they need to follow the pack.
Brain damaged - Physical damage to the brain that prevents one from learning or making good decisions.
Emotionally impaired - The condition of having emotions overriding thought.
Dunning/Kruger - I am a genius in all things, surrounded by retards. I know more about your specialty than you do, even though I have no training in the field.
Anyone want to change or add to this?
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 04, 2013, 05:30:58 PM
Yes... we've come to equate "disadvantaged", "ignorant", and "uninformed" with "stupid". To make matters worse, we seem to have defined "stupid" as "undeserving of good things". People who are "stupid" are bad people. They deserve what's coming to them.
Heh...There's a split in the Church of the Subgenius over that. The Ivangelicals believe that stupid people should be ignored when possible, and the holocaustals believe they should be wiped out, even if it decimates the church itself.
I work with some stupid kids, man. In the sense that these kids are fucked over by the world from day one, before they're even born. It's easy to see where a lot of these guys are headed, and it isn't anywhere good. They are going to do some stupid things, and end up in stupid places. I probably wouldn't like the adults many of them are going to become. But only a monster would feel disdain for these kids. Only a monster would fail to feel compassion.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 04, 2013, 05:36:44 PM
We should probably define a few terms here:
Uneducated - While a person may be smart or stupid, they lack the tools to put what brainpower they have to use, or to optimum use.
Stupid - The condition of ignoring skills learned when attempting a task or conversation.
Willfully ignorant - The condition of NOT WANTING the tools to use your intelligence, because you've put on a uniform that disagrees with those tools for one reason or another.
Smart - The condition of having the brains, education, and emotional stability required to make good decisions.
Fool. - One who blindly follows the reasoning of another, because thinking for themselves is either too much bother, or they need to follow the pack.
Brain damaged - Physical damage to the brain that prevents one from learning or making good decisions.
Emotionally impaired - The condition of having emotions overriding thought.
Dunning/Kruger - I am a genius in all things, surrounded by retards. I know more about your specialty than you do, even though I have no training in the field.
Anyone want to change or add to this?
The only thing I would add is that we all fall prey to all of those conditions, from time to time, with the possible exception of brain damage.
I don't think your definition of "stupid" really matches up with the most commonly used definition of "stupid"; I personally prefer to use dictionary definitions wherever possible.
I think that the problem with focusing on definitions is that it sidesteps the point of my OP, which is not about how to define those we look down on or feel contempt for, but the act of looking down on and feeling contempt for them in the first place.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 04, 2013, 05:39:15 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 04, 2013, 05:30:58 PM
Yes... we've come to equate "disadvantaged", "ignorant", and "uninformed" with "stupid". To make matters worse, we seem to have defined "stupid" as "undeserving of good things". People who are "stupid" are bad people. They deserve what's coming to them.
Heh...There's a split in the Church of the Subgenius over that. The Ivangelicals believe that stupid people should be ignored when possible, and the holocaustals believe they should be wiped out, even if it decimates the church itself.
:lulz: It would wipe out humanity itself. So maybe the holocaustals have a point.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 04, 2013, 05:39:30 PM
I work with some stupid kids, man. In the sense that these kids are fucked over by the world from day one, before they're even born. It's easy to see where a lot of these guys are headed, and it isn't anywhere good. They are going to do some stupid things, and end up in stupid places. I probably wouldn't like the adults many of them are going to become. But only a monster would feel disdain for these kids. Only a monster would fail to feel compassion.
Yep. Based on the definitions I wrote above, it's not "stupid" people that I have a real problem with (most often), but rather the willfully ignorant.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 04, 2013, 05:47:20 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 04, 2013, 05:36:44 PM
We should probably define a few terms here:
Uneducated - While a person may be smart or stupid, they lack the tools to put what brainpower they have to use, or to optimum use.
Stupid - The condition of ignoring skills learned when attempting a task or conversation.
Willfully ignorant - The condition of NOT WANTING the tools to use your intelligence, because you've put on a uniform that disagrees with those tools for one reason or another.
Smart - The condition of having the brains, education, and emotional stability required to make good decisions.
Fool. - One who blindly follows the reasoning of another, because thinking for themselves is either too much bother, or they need to follow the pack.
Brain damaged - Physical damage to the brain that prevents one from learning or making good decisions.
Emotionally impaired - The condition of having emotions overriding thought.
Dunning/Kruger - I am a genius in all things, surrounded by retards. I know more about your specialty than you do, even though I have no training in the field.
Anyone want to change or add to this?
The only thing I would add is that we all fall prey to all of those conditions, from time to time, with the possible exception of brain damage.
And I even have THAT one nailed.
QuoteI don't think your definition of "stupid" really matches up with the most commonly used definition of "stupid"; I personally prefer to use dictionary definitions wherever possible.
Excellent point:
Quote1.regarded as unintelligent: regarded as showing a lack of intelligence, perception, or common sense
Quote
I think that the problem with focusing on definitions is that it sidesteps the point of my OP, which is not about how to define those we look down on or feel contempt for, but the act of looking down on and feeling contempt for them in the first place.
Problem is, there are certain kinds of "stupid" people for which I DO have contempt.
Greg, for example, is a border patrol agent that I know. He hates all minorities, even (and especially) those with which he's had no contact. He takes a stupid pleasure in literally tormenting Hispanics. He is
proud to receive ALL of his opinions from right wing radio. He's the kind of guy that would pull wings off of a fly. On top of all of this, he's DENSE.
I DO have contempt for him. In fact, I like it when bad things happen to him.
On the other hand, my wife has a stupid friend. She's a sweet person, but cannot seem to make any decisions that don't lead to disaster, disasters that anyone could see coming. I don't feel contempt for her; God simply wasn't kind to her. I do tend to keep my distance, though, out of sheer self-preservation.
And yes, I myself am a dumbfuck, more often than I care to detail. Everyone is a dumbfuck, at least part of the time. The goal, of course, is to minimize that time.
Maybe it's better to say "harmless stupid" vs "hostile stupid" or even THIS:
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/04/16347234-court-voids-rape-conviction-because-woman-not-married?lite
How about "Assholes" or "People who hurt other people"?
It might be worth focusing instead on what differentiates Greg from your wife's friend, in that particular case.
Greg is stupid, but his stupidity alone is not why you take pleasure in his misfortunes....it's his malice. If Greg had a PhD in neuroscience and could play Bach and Mozart like a word class musician, would you hate him any less, if his attitude was otherwise the same? I suspect you would probably hate him even more.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 04, 2013, 06:07:04 PM
How about "Assholes" or "People who hurt other people"?
Okay.
Quote from: Cain on January 04, 2013, 06:07:40 PM
It might be worth focusing instead on what differentiates Greg from your wife's friend, in that particular case.
Greg is stupid, but his stupidity alone is not why you take pleasure in his misfortunes....it's his malice. If Greg had a PhD in neuroscience and could play Bach and Mozart like a word class musician, would you hate him any less, if his attitude was otherwise the same? I suspect you would probably hate him even more.
Yes, this... in this case, it isn't looking down on him because he's stupid, but not respecting or liking him because he's malicious.
Of course, this trashes about half of my rants.
How about stupidity itself, as opposed to individuals or groups in particular?
Also, I am on the fence over this example:
"We, through our own stupidity, are making our planet uninhabitable."
Interesting thought just flashed through my mind... I rarely see/hear people talking about how much they hate mean people in the way that I see/hear people talking about how much they hate stupid people. I think that maybe saying you hate mean people doesn't get you the same kind of edgy, cynical hipster cred as saying you hate stupid people. It's cool to be mean, and you can be mean and edgy and say you hate stupid people, and it will make other cool mean edgy people think you're cool. If you say you hate mean people, maybe you lose your cool edgy points.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 04, 2013, 06:12:25 PM
Of course, this trashes about half of my rants.
How about stupidity itself, as opposed to individuals or groups in particular?
Also, I am on the fence over this example:
"We, through our own stupidity, are making our planet uninhabitable."
I think that's valid. It's certainly not SMART to be making our planet uninhabitable. And we're all participating in it willy-nilly, so it's not like we have room to be elitist about it.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 04, 2013, 06:15:47 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 04, 2013, 06:12:25 PM
Of course, this trashes about half of my rants.
How about stupidity itself, as opposed to individuals or groups in particular?
Also, I am on the fence over this example:
"We, through our own stupidity, are making our planet uninhabitable."
I think that's valid. It's certainly not SMART to be making our planet uninhabitable.
So, saying it in proper context is okay. "That fool was texting while he was driving, and knocked the ass end off of my car." In this case, the person WAS a fool. Same with "The stupid bastard didn't isolate the circuit before he jammed a screwdriver into the panel".
And yeah, your earlier post is right on the money. Mean is cool, stupid is the victim.
But I get the impression (and I could be really wrong here) that what's on your arse is useless fuckers sitting around complaining that the world is fucked because of stupid people, and that's why they can't get a job/write the great American novel that will expose the alienation inherent in the system, etc.
I see that, every time I log into HFT. A huge pack of freaks, all sitting around crying that their brilliant social engineering ideas would be AWESOME if people weren't too stupid (or "sheep") to recognize their genius.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 04, 2013, 06:15:47 PM
I think that's valid. It's certainly not SMART to be making our planet uninhabitable. And we're all participating in it willy-nilly, so it's not like we have room to be elitist about it.
So it's the elitist part that bugs you. That makes perfect sense, and now I think I understand what you meant in general.
"Good thing WE'RE not stupid like all the humans! HAW HAW!"
I think it's time for the obligatory xkcd comic on this topic:
(http://i.imgur.com/kxNci.png)
Of course, I AM an elitist. Not because I'm smart...There are many people smarter than me. Not because of my education (3 years of university aren't brag-worthy), or my pay (I lucked out to get this job), or any of those other Pink rationalizations.
No, I am an elitist not because I am smarter than them, but because I am BETTER than them. And why is that? I have "Bob". That's really all there is to it.
Quote from: Cain on January 04, 2013, 06:29:22 PM
I think it's time for the obligatory xkcd comic on this topic:
(http://i.imgur.com/kxNci.png)
Can't see it. :sad:
Bunch of people on the subway.
All of them are thinking: "Look at these people. Glassy-eyed automatons going about their daily lives, never stopping to look around and think! I'm the only conscious human in a world of sheep."
HAH!
I always knew there was something I disliked about Kornbluth's The Marching Morons (which inspired, in part, Idiocracy.) The premise was that the stupid people were breeding, but smart people weren't, so the planet became crowded with idiots.
Thing is, Kornbluth's premise was based on his observation that lower class people had more children than upper class people. In short, the working class is STUPID, because they don't have money. Anyone who has worked with tradesmen can tell you differently, of course. Stupid tradesmen don't last in the field. What you have is smart people with low formal education levels but high levels of experientially-gained skills.
So, yeah, elitism. Pretty blatant elitism, in fact.
Quote from: Cain on January 04, 2013, 06:53:08 PM
Bunch of people on the subway.
All of them are thinking: "Look at these people. Glassy-eyed automatons going about their daily lives, never stopping to look around and think! I'm the only conscious human in a world of sheep."
Oh, yeah, I've seen that one. :lulz:
Gary Larson and Gahan Wilson did a few like that, too.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 04, 2013, 06:55:23 PM
HAH!
I always knew there was something I disliked about Kornbluth's The Marching Morons (which inspired, in part, Idiocracy.) The premise was that the stupid people were breeding, but smart people weren't, so the planet became crowded with idiots.
Thing is, Kornbluth's premise was based on his observation that lower class people had more children than upper class people. In short, the working class is STUPID, because they don't have money. Anyone who has worked with tradesmen can tell you differently, of course. Stupid tradesmen don't last in the field. What you have is smart people with low formal education levels but high levels of experientially-gained skills.
So, yeah, elitism. Pretty blatant elitism, in fact.
Often lacking critical thinking and rationalist thought patterns, yes. Stupid, no. But that's what learning is for, right?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 04, 2013, 05:36:44 PM
We should probably define a few terms here:
Uneducated - While a person may be smart or stupid, they lack the tools to put what brainpower they have to use, or to optimum use.
Stupid - The condition of ignoring skills learned when attempting a task or conversation.
Willfully ignorant - The condition of NOT WANTING the tools to use your intelligence, because you've put on a uniform that disagrees with those tools for one reason or another.
Smart - The condition of having the brains, education, and emotional stability required to make good decisions.
Fool. - One who blindly follows the reasoning of another, because thinking for themselves is either too much bother, or they need to follow the pack.
Brain damaged - Physical damage to the brain that prevents one from learning or making good decisions.
Emotionally impaired - The condition of having emotions overriding thought.
Dunning/Kruger - I am a genius in all things, surrounded by retards. I know more about your specialty than you do, even though I have no training in the field.
Anyone want to change or add to this?
I like this list. Can we call it The Spectrum of Derp?
It's also been shown that quality of teaching and income affect a child's later intelligence far more than the intelligence of the parents.
So it's bad science, in addition to classist snobbery and factually incorrect. In fact, it's pretty much a total re-hash of the late 19th/early 20th century mania for eugenics...and we all know how that turned out.
Mental capacity is not a reason to hate people. I know a couple of totally cool people who are (by my definition) thick as pigshit. Doesn't make them bad people any more than being smart would make them good people. And yeah, I tend to look down my nose at the kind of superior asshole who feels the need to brim with distain.
Watching someone who, through no fault of their own, is a bit dim, completely missing some "intellectual" wanker making themselves look like a dick at the thick punters expense is one of those priceless little moments that I get to experience from time to time.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 04, 2013, 06:57:49 PM
Often lacking critical thinking and rationalist thought patterns, yes.
You might be surprised.
That panel isn't going to be troubleshot by Baby Jesus and Market Forces. It requires logic, rational thinking, and the ability to drop a cherished theory when it turns out to be wrong.
Some of the best chess players I've ever met were tradesmen. Some of the smartest people I've met were tradesmen. All of these things go hand in hand.
Granted, they did have to take the long route to get there...20 years of experience vs 4 years of school. On the other hand, everything they learned is useful for them.
Another interesting fact: Probably because of the need for the above mental faculties, tradesmen often become bored with vanilla television culture, and start reading Roman history, Voltaire, etc.
They also tend to be liberal as hell, despite what Fox might say about things.
My grandfather was a tradesman his whole life, and he insisted that every man should be at least minimally capable as one sort of artist or another, or that person had wasted their life by existing as a mule.
So Kornbluth can kiss my entire spotty arse.
Both my grandfather's were tradesmen. My mom's dad left school at 14 and spent his life making shoes. Although he had limited formal education, he was very skillful artistically and had quite a philosophical bent.
My dad's father was an electrician in the dockyard. Was hamfisted with just about everything he did unless he had to do with wires and electricity in which case, he was really good. He also had a limited formal education but read widely and voraciously as an adult.
My dad was the first person on either side of the family to go to University in the early 60s. Although he did get the formal education his parents didn't, he's one of the most pragmatic & resourceful people I know. He's got the kind of brain where he can see something in his head and build it right away with very little fuss. Given that I can't even hammer a fucking nail straight into a piece of wood, this is never ceases to amaze me!
My father is a smart guy, except that he doesn't adjust well. Stupidity appalls him. Not in a "You People are DUMB" kind of way, but in a "HOW CAN ANYONE ACT LIKE THAT?"
The specific type of stupidity that seems to bother him is, from the dictionary definition, "lack of common sense" with a dash of "can't see past next week", and is usually aimed at Arizona politicians.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 04, 2013, 05:39:30 PM
I work with some stupid kids, man. In the sense that these kids are fucked over by the world from day one, before they're even born. It's easy to see where a lot of these guys are headed, and it isn't anywhere good. They are going to do some stupid things, and end up in stupid places. I probably wouldn't like the adults many of them are going to become. But only a monster would feel disdain for these kids. Only a monster would fail to feel compassion.
Well, they were born guilty. Lots of people are. It's not their fault, but there you have it. Take any of them and put them in front of a jury in Oro Valley, and they'd be sent to prison for life,
before any charges are named.
Guilty = WRONG = Stupid = tired and poor and weak.
Innocent = RIGHT = Smart = rich and powerful.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 04, 2013, 07:26:37 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 04, 2013, 05:39:30 PM
I work with some stupid kids, man. In the sense that these kids are fucked over by the world from day one, before they're even born. It's easy to see where a lot of these guys are headed, and it isn't anywhere good. They are going to do some stupid things, and end up in stupid places. I probably wouldn't like the adults many of them are going to become. But only a monster would feel disdain for these kids. Only a monster would fail to feel compassion.
Well, they were born guilty. Lots of people are. It's not their fault, but there you have it. Take any of them and put them in front of a jury in Oro Valley, and they'd be sent to prison for life, before any charges are named.
Guilty = WRONG = Stupid = tired and poor and weak.
Innocent = RIGHT = Smart = rich and powerful.
A friend of mine works as an investigator for the Public Defender's office. He used to be a marine and a cop and now his job is to make sure that the police are doing their jobs properly. One day, he was particularly pleased with the outcome of a case. Goes something like this:
"Many of the people I have to deal with have actually done what they're accused of. Still, I have to make sure that everything has been dealt with properly. However, every now and then, you get someone who gets snarled up in the system. This one guy I'm helping is, without doubt, really really stupid....but he's not a bad person and he's definitely not guilty of what he's accused of."
I can't remember the exact details of the situation but it involved a not very bright individual, drugs and a hooker. However, it was too easy for the cops to say "Ok, dumb guy with issues, it
must be him."
Reading ability/inclination could factor in, don't you think?
I've known a lot of people who could think fast, but they were semi-illiterate and therefore ignorant because they the bulk of their information from television. You have to read to get a lot of things.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 04, 2013, 06:21:59 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 04, 2013, 06:15:47 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 04, 2013, 06:12:25 PM
Of course, this trashes about half of my rants.
How about stupidity itself, as opposed to individuals or groups in particular?
Also, I am on the fence over this example:
"We, through our own stupidity, are making our planet uninhabitable."
I think that's valid. It's certainly not SMART to be making our planet uninhabitable.
So, saying it in proper context is okay. "That fool was texting while he was driving, and knocked the ass end off of my car." In this case, the person WAS a fool. Same with "The stupid bastard didn't isolate the circuit before he jammed a screwdriver into the panel".
And yeah, your earlier post is right on the money. Mean is cool, stupid is the victim.
But I get the impression (and I could be really wrong here) that what's on your arse is useless fuckers sitting around complaining that the world is fucked because of stupid people, and that's why they can't get a job/write the great American novel that will expose the alienation inherent in the system, etc.
I see that, every time I log into HFT. A huge pack of freaks, all sitting around crying that their brilliant social engineering ideas would be AWESOME if people weren't too stupid (or "sheep") to recognize their genius.
Yeah, it's not about calling someone a fool for doing a foolish thing, or being mad because a bunch of people are doing something stupid. It's the smug superiority of "I hate stupid people", because it assumes that stupidity is a character flaw that makes people of less value, and that the speaker is immune from being stupid.
Stupid is situational, and we all do it. Some people are also less smart than others, and that is not so much a character flaw as luck of the draw. Some people are meaner than others, and that is a character flaw.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 04, 2013, 06:25:25 PM
"Good thing WE'RE not stupid like all the humans! HAW HAW!"
:lulz: Exactly.
At university, I think actually in my first ever tutor review, my tutor, a grand dame of cognitive science if ever there was one, put "Doesn't suffer fools gladly" on my report sheet. Being the arrogant young person I was, I naturally took this as something of a compliment, and said so when I went to discuss my report in person. Usually a smiley, chatty person even in her philosophy tutorials, she adopted a very serious stance and tone and gave me a proper bollocking, explaining very clearly that in her opinion, not suffering fools gladly was not the mark of genius but a character flaw. I felt shamed and cowed and of course did not agree with her, but kept that to myself. I now agree with her. If I was stupid enough to maneuver myself into a situation in which I need to suffer a fool (interact with a person who is being wilfully and unconsciously irrational due to prior baggage they are entirely clueless about), I can bloody well do it gladly. I can then be more careful the next time.
There is an exception: when dealing with coercive authorities, fuming about the stupidity of the drones I am forced to do business with is quite alright.
Nigel, I'm going to revise my statement.
The best way to say it is:
"I hate stupid people. However, the individuals making up the population of stupid people may vary from time to time and issue to issue. It will often include myself."
Our generation seems to be steeped in this sort of shit.
I can remember as early as Junior High being at school dances where none of the "hip" kids would actually dance until something like New Kids on the Block came on. It was very not cool to put yourself out there unless you were making fun of something.
The cute thing is how self-perpetuating that is. The more energy we put into "suffering fools" the more we build the insecurity about being the fool the more we have to put energy into "suffering fools" to assure ourselves that we are not, in fact, the fool in question.
Every act of elitist mockery is isolating. Isolated we are insecure. Insecure we seek to cover it up with elitist mockery.
-or-
Being a dick we become pussies. Being a pussy we become dicks.
--
ALSO -- What ever happened to the "Mean People Suck" bumper stickers/t-shirts, etc...there was a time when that was a cool, wasn't there?
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on January 11, 2013, 09:17:00 PM
Every act of elitist mockery is isolating.
Tell me about it.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 11, 2013, 06:28:33 PM
Nigel, I'm going to revise my statement.
The best way to say it is:
"I hate stupid people. However, the individuals making up the population of stupid people may vary from time to time and issue to issue. It will often include myself."
Upon further reflection, I'm drifting off the dictionary definition of "stupid" again.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 11, 2013, 09:27:48 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 11, 2013, 06:28:33 PM
Nigel, I'm going to revise my statement.
The best way to say it is:
"I hate stupid people. However, the individuals making up the population of stupid people may vary from time to time and issue to issue. It will often include myself."
Upon further reflection, I'm drifting off the dictionary definition of "stupid" again.
Some people are stupid, in the sense that their power of reasoning is deficient. These people are, in the dictionary sense, fools. All people do stupid things, in the sense that their power of reasoning is temporarily or situationally impaired. When they do, these people are, in the dictionary sense, foolish.