Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Aneristic Illusions => Topic started by: Cain on January 11, 2013, 04:04:54 PM

Title: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Cain on January 11, 2013, 04:04:54 PM
Is anyone else following this idiocy?

I thought about putting it in the financial fuckery thread, but decided it was stupid enough to warrant its own discussion.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: LMNO on January 11, 2013, 04:10:37 PM
I think it would be amazing, and a perfect example of the social fiction of money.

On the other hand, Ezra Klein makes a good case for not going for the easy fix: (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/01/10/mr-president-dont-mint-that-platinum-coin/)

QuoteThat problem is not the debt ceiling, per se, though it manifests itself most dangerously through the debt ceiling. It's a Republican Party that has grown extreme enough to persuade itself that stratagems like threatening default are reasonable. It's that our two-party political system breaks down when one of the two parties comes unmoored. Minting the coin doesn't so much solve that problem as surrender to it.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 11, 2013, 04:17:10 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 11, 2013, 04:04:54 PM
Is anyone else following this idiocy?

No.  What the fuck?
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Cain on January 11, 2013, 04:17:14 PM
Ezra Klein is a dweeb, but I actually agree with him here, if not for the reasons he gives.

Allowing this to go ahead just enshrines the power of the executive over the legislative, and increases the likelihood of the Man On A Horse scenario for the USA.

Of course, that scenario is probably inevitable in the long-term, but ideally it should be avoided where possible...
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Cain on January 11, 2013, 04:18:50 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 11, 2013, 04:17:10 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 11, 2013, 04:04:54 PM
Is anyone else following this idiocy?

No.  What the fuck?

Basically, Obama supporters and the White House have suggested that, if the Republicans don't play ball on the debt ceiling vote, they'll get the Treasury to mint a trillion dollar platinum coin.

See http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/08/1177211/-Co-author-of-platinum-coin-law-weighs-in-on-trillion-dollar-coin# for details.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 11, 2013, 04:26:17 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 11, 2013, 04:18:50 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 11, 2013, 04:17:10 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 11, 2013, 04:04:54 PM
Is anyone else following this idiocy?

No.  What the fuck?

Basically, Obama supporters and the White House have suggested that, if the Republicans don't play ball on the debt ceiling vote, they'll get the Treasury to mint a trillion dollar platinum coin.

See http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/01/08/1177211/-Co-author-of-platinum-coin-law-weighs-in-on-trillion-dollar-coin# for details.

:lulz:

Blocked, but the idea is hilarious.  I love this century.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Faust on January 11, 2013, 04:34:17 PM
The only way to beat the republicans is to out crazy them.
Wouldn't want to lose that coin down the back of the couch.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 11, 2013, 04:37:50 PM
Quote from: Faust on January 11, 2013, 04:34:17 PM
The only way to beat the republicans is to out crazy them.
Wouldn't want to lose that coin down the back of the couch.

Alongside the forklift you'd need to move it.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 11, 2013, 04:39:54 PM
Wow, OK.  :lulz:

Oh, America.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 11, 2013, 04:41:26 PM
Oh, wait.  That would weigh more than 1500 tons.  Forklift aint gonna do it.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: LMNO on January 11, 2013, 04:45:00 PM
The coin, or the couch?

Because the coin would simply be about the size of a poker chip, and simply say $1,000,000,000,000 on it.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 11, 2013, 04:45:36 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 11, 2013, 04:45:00 PM
The coin, or the couch?

Because the coin would simply be about the size of a poker chip, and simply say $1,000,000,000,000 on it.

That's not nearly as cool.

They need to involve me in decisions like this.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Faust on January 11, 2013, 04:47:55 PM
Using up 1500 tons of platinum would also have the effect of setting back manufacturing and and healthcare for about a thousand years.

We don't have an awful lot of platinum.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Cain on January 11, 2013, 04:52:21 PM
Using up the entire world's platinum supply is worth it to beat the Republicans at their own metallic currency nuttery.

I'm hoping 20 years from now we'll have lunatic Democrats demanding all coins be issued in platinum, and websites with names like Platinumismoney.com cropping up.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: LMNO on January 11, 2013, 04:53:06 PM
Why wait 20 years?  We can start setting up those websites right now.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 11, 2013, 04:53:35 PM
Quote from: Faust on January 11, 2013, 04:47:55 PM
Using up 1500 tons of platinum would also have the effect of setting back manufacturing and and healthcare for about a thousand years.

We don't have an awful lot of platinum.

We don't have a lot of lulz like this either.  I am willing to take that risk.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Cain on January 11, 2013, 04:53:55 PM
We have to find a host who is willing to accept payment in platinum first.

Cain,
no compromise, ever.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 11, 2013, 05:50:13 PM
WE DEMAND A RETURN TO THE PLATINUM STANDARD.

OH WAIT
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Ben Shapiro on January 13, 2013, 04:22:12 AM
Isn't the current supply of platinum able to fill two bath tubs only?
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Eater of Clowns on January 13, 2013, 05:22:53 AM
You're all fools for not converting to platinum standard before the pendulum swings in its direction.  I've been investing all of my money in platinum standard since I was 10.  I have .00024 ounces of PURE platinum.  Platinum is the only medium that continues to rise.  It's at a all time high.  My safe (combination 682448265489618 (binary for ahahahahaha)) buried in the third floorboard down and seventh floorboard in from the rightmost cabinet by the stove is the sole depository of my worldly wealth, which, unlike you FEDERAL RESERVE STANDARD idiots, is actually manifest and verifiable.

Ron Paul '12.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 13, 2013, 05:23:39 AM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on January 13, 2013, 05:22:53 AM
You're all fools for not converting to platinum standard before the pendulum swings in its direction.  I've been investing all of my money in platinum standard since I was 10.  I have .00024 ounces of PURE platinum.  Platinum is the only medium that continues to rise.  It's at a all time high.  My safe (combination 682448265489618 (binary for ahahahahaha)) buried in the third floorboard down and seventh floorboard in from the rightmost cabinet by the stove is the sole depository of my worldly wealth, which, unlike you FEDERAL RESERVE STANDARD idiots, is actually manifest and verifiable.

Ron Paul '12.

:lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Jaidyn Casey on January 13, 2013, 05:33:39 AM
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on January 13, 2013, 05:22:53 AM
You're all fools for not converting to platinum standard before the pendulum swings in its direction.  I've been investing all of my money in platinum standard since I was 10.  I have .00024 ounces of PURE platinum.  Platinum is the only medium that continues to rise.  It's at a all time high.  My safe (combination 682448265489618 (binary for ahahahahaha)) buried in the third floorboard down and seventh floorboard in from the rightmost cabinet by the stove is the sole depository of my worldly wealth, which, unlike you FEDERAL RESERVE STANDARD idiots, is actually manifest and verifiable.

Ron Paul '12.

Like you, I also planned in advance. I actually managed to hoard way more than that paltry amount. Instead I have a whopping .00050 ounces of pure platinum... except mine is in a shoe-box under the toilet at 1060 W. Addison in Chicago. But I mean I am certain it is pretty safe.  :evil:
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Bruno on January 13, 2013, 05:47:42 AM
I think they should male billion dollar coins out of Depleted Uranium.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on January 13, 2013, 03:30:33 PM
LOL - this makes no coherent sense to me whatsoever, so it's entirely in keeping with pretty much everything else they've done since the heist was pulled off global economic crisis struck.

The idea of some lazy fat rich fuck, walking past me on a dark street with a trillion bucks in his/her pocket does strike me as something that ought to be encouraged, tho :lulz:
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Bruno on January 13, 2013, 07:29:24 PM
Lazy AND rich?

Keep dreaming, comrade.  :wink:
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 13, 2013, 07:45:58 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on January 13, 2013, 07:29:24 PM
Lazy AND rich?

Keep dreaming, comrade.  :wink:

On average, the rich work less than the poor.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Bruno on January 13, 2013, 07:58:21 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 13, 2013, 07:45:58 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on January 13, 2013, 07:29:24 PM
Lazy AND rich?

Keep dreaming, comrade.  :wink:

On average, the rich work less than the poor.

I was just yanking his chain, or warbling his dongleberries. Whatever they say over there.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 13, 2013, 08:00:14 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on January 13, 2013, 07:58:21 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 13, 2013, 07:45:58 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on January 13, 2013, 07:29:24 PM
Lazy AND rich?

Keep dreaming, comrade.  :wink:

On average, the rich work less than the poor.

I was just yanking his chain, or warbling his dongleberries. Whatever they say over there.

Ah

I probably need more sleep.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Cain on January 13, 2013, 09:00:09 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on January 13, 2013, 07:58:21 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 13, 2013, 07:45:58 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on January 13, 2013, 07:29:24 PM
Lazy AND rich?

Keep dreaming, comrade.  :wink:

On average, the rich work less than the poor.

I was just yanking his chain, or warbling his dongleberries. Whatever they say over there.

"Donkey-punching his Thatcher".
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Bruno on January 13, 2013, 09:40:58 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 13, 2013, 09:00:09 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on January 13, 2013, 07:58:21 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 13, 2013, 07:45:58 PM
Quote from: Emo Howard on January 13, 2013, 07:29:24 PM
Lazy AND rich?

Keep dreaming, comrade.  :wink:

On average, the rich work less than the poor.

I was just yanking his chain, or warbling his dongleberries. Whatever they say over there.

"Donkey-punching his Thatcher".

Such a beautiful language...
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Cain on January 13, 2013, 10:15:16 PM
Language of Shakespeare, innit.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Durivan on January 14, 2013, 03:35:08 AM
The plan isn't as nutty as it seems.  The coin will be small and not have that much platinum in it, just have a high dollar value on the face of the coin. The idea behind it is it is a way to print money instead of borrowing.  The reason it sounds so ridiculous is because it is the only way for the president to do this without congress is with the a literal reading of a specific law. The law allows the treasury to issue platinum coins of a design and valuation of the Treasury Secretaries choosing.  Supposedly it was meant for commemorative coins. The law did however come after the debt ceiling crisis between Gingrich and Clinton, so some say it was worded the way it is just for this use.

Despite how stupid it sounds it is actually the best idea I've seen to deal with the debt limit and debt in general.  In our current system money is only generated by debt, debt that requires more in payment than what was borrowed. This means for the economy just to continue at the same level overall debt has to continuously increase or some debts have to be unpaid. Whining about the governments debt in such a system is even sillier than minting a trillion dollar platinum coin to get around it.

Ideally we'd have congress decide that a certain amount of spending in excess of taxes can just be printed instead of borrowed, but with our current congress,  both republicans and democrats, there is no chance of that happening. Anyway, there is also no chance Obama would take the platinum coin option, as you've said it sounds (and to some degree is) rather silly and he doesn't want that as his legacy. Besides it would piss off the banks and the rich for the government to print is own money, that is another reason it just won't happen.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 14, 2013, 08:25:11 AM
We totally didn't understand that, thank you for patiently explaining it.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on January 14, 2013, 06:31:13 PM
I want to accidentally get it in my change.
No, scratch that, they'd riddle me with bullets if I tried to spend it.
I imagine it will have some kind of tracking device in it and never leave DC.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 14, 2013, 06:48:33 PM
Quote from: Wuli Fufu on January 14, 2013, 06:31:13 PM
I want to accidentally get it in my change.
No, scratch that, they'd riddle me with bullets if I tried to spend it.
I imagine it will have some kind of tracking device in it and never leave DC.

"Hey, Joe.  We have a problem.  Your register came up short a trillion dollars."
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on January 14, 2013, 06:54:14 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 14, 2013, 06:48:33 PM
Quote from: Wuli Fufu on January 14, 2013, 06:31:13 PM
I want to accidentally get it in my change.
No, scratch that, they'd riddle me with bullets if I tried to spend it.
I imagine it will have some kind of tracking device in it and never leave DC.

"Hey, Joe.  We have a problem.  Your register came up short a trillion dollars."

The Suzy B. Anthony coin mistake. x 1 trillion.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 14, 2013, 06:56:01 PM
Quote from: Wuli Fufu on January 14, 2013, 06:54:14 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 14, 2013, 06:48:33 PM
Quote from: Wuli Fufu on January 14, 2013, 06:31:13 PM
I want to accidentally get it in my change.
No, scratch that, they'd riddle me with bullets if I tried to spend it.
I imagine it will have some kind of tracking device in it and never leave DC.

"Hey, Joe.  We have a problem.  Your register came up short a trillion dollars."

The Suzy B. Anthony coin mistake. x 1 trillion.

x 250 Billion.  The SBAD error is usually made by giving out a SBAD instead of a quarter.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on January 14, 2013, 07:01:47 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 14, 2013, 06:56:01 PM
Quote from: Wuli Fufu on January 14, 2013, 06:54:14 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 14, 2013, 06:48:33 PM
Quote from: Wuli Fufu on January 14, 2013, 06:31:13 PM
I want to accidentally get it in my change.
No, scratch that, they'd riddle me with bullets if I tried to spend it.
I imagine it will have some kind of tracking device in it and never leave DC.

"Hey, Joe.  We have a problem.  Your register came up short a trillion dollars."

The Suzy B. Anthony coin mistake. x 1 trillion.

x 250 Billion.  The SBAD error is usually made by giving out a SBAD instead of a quarter.

$999,999,999,999.75?
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 14, 2013, 07:02:32 PM
Quote from: Wuli Fufu on January 14, 2013, 07:01:47 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 14, 2013, 06:56:01 PM
Quote from: Wuli Fufu on January 14, 2013, 06:54:14 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 14, 2013, 06:48:33 PM
Quote from: Wuli Fufu on January 14, 2013, 06:31:13 PM
I want to accidentally get it in my change.
No, scratch that, they'd riddle me with bullets if I tried to spend it.
I imagine it will have some kind of tracking device in it and never leave DC.

"Hey, Joe.  We have a problem.  Your register came up short a trillion dollars."

The Suzy B. Anthony coin mistake. x 1 trillion.

x 250 Billion.  The SBAD error is usually made by giving out a SBAD instead of a quarter.

$999,999,999,999.75?

Whoops.  Yeah.

It's a good thing I don't actually have to account for my annual budget, I suppose.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on January 14, 2013, 07:04:58 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 14, 2013, 07:02:32 PM
Quote from: Wuli Fufu on January 14, 2013, 07:01:47 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 14, 2013, 06:56:01 PM
Quote from: Wuli Fufu on January 14, 2013, 06:54:14 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on January 14, 2013, 06:48:33 PM
Quote from: Wuli Fufu on January 14, 2013, 06:31:13 PM
I want to accidentally get it in my change.
No, scratch that, they'd riddle me with bullets if I tried to spend it.
I imagine it will have some kind of tracking device in it and never leave DC.

"Hey, Joe.  We have a problem.  Your register came up short a trillion dollars."

The Suzy B. Anthony coin mistake. x 1 trillion.

x 250 Billion.  The SBAD error is usually made by giving out a SBAD instead of a quarter.

$999,999,999,999.75?

Whoops.  Yeah.

It's a good thing I don't actually have to account for my annual budget, I suppose.

I sat there counting the 9's a few times. It's a little boggling.  :lol:
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on January 14, 2013, 08:47:43 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on January 14, 2013, 08:25:11 AM
We totally didn't understand that, thank you for patiently explaining it.

You fail to account for my level of retarded. I have no idea what the fuck any of this is supposed to mean.  :oops:
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: Cain on January 14, 2013, 09:03:31 PM
Obama is trying overly clever, legalistic tricks in case the Republicans play hardball over the debt ceiling.

The thing is, ITT, no-one denied he could do that, theoretically, what we were talking about was whether it was a good idea to allow the President to unilaterally declare powers which should rest with Congress. 

I know it's a kind of naive liberalist concern, that the juggernaut death machinery of the USA is not observing correct formal division of power, but at the same time, the USA is increasingly moving towards the stage where all useful powers are vested in the office of the Presidency, making whoever holds the office effectively an elected dictator.

One could argue that the House Republicans, in their psychotic break from reality, have abrogated their responsibilities towards the electorate and the state, and that's an argument I have a certain amount of sympathy for.  At the same time, political dysfunction is only solved in the short term by these kind of solutions, and the long-term implications make them far worse than what is currently happening.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 14, 2013, 09:11:28 PM
Quote from: Cain on January 14, 2013, 09:03:31 PM
Obama is trying overly clever, legalistic tricks in case the Republicans play hardball over the debt ceiling.

The thing is, ITT, no-one denied he could do that, theoretically, what we were talking about was whether it was a good idea to allow the President to unilaterally declare powers which should rest with Congress. 

I know it's a kind of naive liberalist concern, that the juggernaut death machinery of the USA is not observing correct formal division of power, but at the same time, the USA is increasingly moving towards the stage where all useful powers are vested in the office of the Presidency, making whoever holds the office effectively an elected dictator.

One could argue that the House Republicans, in their psychotic break from reality, have abrogated their responsibilities towards the electorate and the state, and that's an argument I have a certain amount of sympathy for.  At the same time, political dysfunction is only solved in the short term by these kind of solutions, and the long-term implications make them far worse than what is currently happening.

Yeah, breaking the rules to fix another breach of the rules isn't a fix.

And you hit the nail on the head, Cain.  We're perfectly happy with a dictator, as long as we elected the bastard.  See:  Lincoln, FDR, LBJ, and Cheney's thing.
Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: LMNO on January 14, 2013, 09:22:50 PM
The thing is, the whole debt ceiling is a weird artifact to begin with, and is inherently contradictory. Obama is legally bound to spend the budget congress passed. He can't NOT spend the money without breaking the law. Then congress says they won't raise cover the debt *they already authorized* when they passed the budget. It's an intentional contradiction that purposefully fucks the president.

Obamas solution is essentially printing enough money to close the gap the congress already created. And according to Neo-Keynesian thinking, when interest rates are close to zero, printing money won't lead to inflation.


Title: Re: Minting a trillion dollar platinum coin
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 14, 2013, 09:29:42 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 14, 2013, 09:22:50 PM
The thing is, the whole debt ceiling is a weird artifact to begin with, and is inherently contradictory. Obama is legally bound to spend the budget congress passed. He can't NOT spend the money without breaking the law. Then congress says they won't raise cover the debt *they already authorized* when they passed the budget. It's an intentional contradiction that purposefully fucks the president.

Obamas solution is essentially printing enough money to close the gap the congress already created. And according to Neo-Keynesian thinking, when interest rates are close to zero, printing money won't lead to inflation.

Well, here's the thing:

1.  Obama cannot be reelected.  That means, short of impeaching him, there's nothing they can do to him.
2.  Congress is up for election in 2014.

The sad thing is, they are STILL unable to sniff the wind to see which way the farts are blowing.  They STILL think that pandering to their rapidly-shrinking base is going to somehow sweep the polls.

I think they're in for a very rude shock.