Yeah, so we're using drones for domestic surveilance, and also for blowing people into cat meat on the other side of the planet. I can think of any number of things wrong with this, and so can you...But there's one BIG thing wrong with it that - in my opinion - makes it something beyond "odious". In fact, "monstrous" would be the right word.
Just as with torture, the problem with drones is the effect it has on the operators of the drones and also on the nation as a whole. It's brutality by remote control.
Sometimes brutality is in fact called for...Whether the situation in Pakistan actually calls for brutality is another argument, to be dealt with elsewhere. Thing is, when brutality is dished out by proxy (torture) or by remote control (drones), it suddenly becomes just another day. We become desensitized to it. It becomes acceptable. In world war II, they referred to this condition as "bombadier's eyes"...When you kill from 20,000 feet up, it's not really "killing", and human life loses all of its value.
In fact, before long it becomes the FIRST solution to a problem...As Terry Pratchett has pointed out, "If you do something wrong for a good reason, soon you'll do it for a bad reason."
It's also easy. What this means is that suddenly the ends justify the means, which is basic human morality stood on its head. The ends never justify the means. Any person who forgets that becomes evil, sure as night follows day, and any nation that forgets that becomes an abomination.
Not that we had far to fall, of course, as any remaining Cherokee can tell you. Or any Black person, Chinese person, or any of the other groups whose bones form the foundation of this country...But the sins of the father are not the sins of the son unless the son keeps committing those sins.
And that, I think, is the critical flaw in American morality. Precedent allows any monstrosity.
Thomas Jefferson once said, "I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just".
I can see what he meant.
Or Kill Me.
100% truth.
Death is sanitized these days. It's kind of like those sausage labels with smiling cartoon pigs, only it's people and we're doing it for DEMOCRACY(TM).
Quote from: Pope Partum Depression on February 19, 2013, 04:07:33 PM
100% truth.
Death is sanitized these days. It's kind of like those sausage labels with smiling cartoon pigs, only it's people and we're doing it for DEMOCRACY(TM).
:horrormirth:
By the way, this series was inspired by Cain's stuff in the political area.
Next one is about financial fuckery.
i read yesterday that drone pilots are getting derision for not being 'actual war fighters' from civilians and from the boots on the ground soldiers, but that they are getting PTSD in high numbers. (hell, i read that facebook image filtering employees get PTSD.) it must be a helluva mindfuck blowing up a funeral procession and then heading home to your wife and children for dinner. day after day.
but there's a new medal for the drone pilots:
(http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/xml/news/2013/02/mct-new-high-tech-medal-distinguised-warfare-medal-draws-backlash-021413/021313-dist-warfare-medal-800.JPG)
So that should fix the psychological damage, right? i mean, you don't get medals for doing the Wrong Thing, right?
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 19, 2013, 05:33:37 PM
i read yesterday that drone pilots are getting derision for not being 'actual war fighters' from civilians and from the boots on the ground soldiers, but that they are getting PTSD in high numbers. (hell, i read that facebook image filtering employees get PTSD.) it must be a helluva mindfuck blowing up a funeral procession and then heading home to your wife and children for dinner. day after day.
but there's a new medal for the drone pilots:
(http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/xml/news/2013/02/mct-new-high-tech-medal-distinguised-warfare-medal-draws-backlash-021413/021313-dist-warfare-medal-800.JPG)
So that should fix the psychological damage, right? i mean, you don't get medals for doing the Wrong Thing, right?
Medals make it
worse. They are a tangible reminder that you may never again sleep the sleep of the just.
In fact, they are a mark placed on you by the military, to remind you that you are theirs for the rest of your days, no matter how long you live after you leave the service.
yeah, i was being facetious about them making it better, but i hadn't thought about them actually making it worse.
even when these kids are old and retired, they'll wake up in the morning and open their sock drawer to get dressed, and there's the memory of pushbutton flowers blooming in a crowd of civilians half a world away...
Quote from: Elder Iptuous on February 19, 2013, 06:45:46 PM
yeah, i was being facetious about them making it better, but i hadn't thought about them actually making it worse.
even when these kids are old and retired, they'll wake up in the morning and open their sock drawer to get dressed, and there's the memory of pushbutton flowers blooming in a crowd of civilians half a world away...
The HEALTHY ones are the ones that pitch their medals over the White House fence.
The ones that keep them are either the ones who never stopped believing the lies, or those who keep them for self-flagellation purposes.
This is heavy stuff, Roger. And good.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on February 19, 2013, 07:56:09 PM
This is heavy stuff, Roger. And good.
Thanks. Cain got me thinking.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 19, 2013, 03:18:12 PM
But the sins of the father are not the sins of the son unless the son keeps committing those sins.
THIS!
I wish we would could turn all those nuclear warheads into power plants, and forbid building any town within 15 miles of it.
Quote from: /b/earman on February 19, 2013, 08:15:26 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 19, 2013, 03:18:12 PM
But the sins of the father are not the sins of the son unless the son keeps committing those sins.
THIS!
I wish would could turn all thos enuclear warheads into power plants, and forbid building any town within 15 miles of it.
Not me. Nuclear weapons ended global war. I LIKE them.
"Grow up or die."
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 19, 2013, 03:18:12 PMAnd that, I think, is the critical flaw in American morality. Precedent allows any monstrosity.
Our American justice system is based more on the credibility of the testimony than it is on the rightness or wrongness of the action. Precedent is one way of establishing credibility, since you can discredit something in the eyes of many by saying that it's never been done that way before.
If someone gets murdered, and the witness is a known crack addict, and the murderer is a police officer that has no blemishes on his reputation, guess who will get punished? The Police officer with no previous blemishes will have an easy time establishing his credibility and getting off scot free for the murder, and the crack addict will not be taken seriously by anyone, and could well get the murder rap pinned on his shoulders.
Justice doesn't matter, but credibility does, and precedent can establish credibility.
This has been my opinion for years, and so far, I've not seen it proven wrong.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 19, 2013, 08:16:24 PM
Quote from: /b/earman on February 19, 2013, 08:15:26 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 19, 2013, 03:18:12 PM
But the sins of the father are not the sins of the son unless the son keeps committing those sins.
THIS!
I wish would could turn all thos enuclear warheads into power plants, and forbid building any town within 15 miles of it.
Not me. Nuclear weapons ended global war. I LIKE them.
"Grow up or die."
What's stopping America from making new ones?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 19, 2013, 07:57:18 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on February 19, 2013, 07:56:09 PM
This is heavy stuff, Roger. And good.
Thanks. Cain got me thinking.
What Nigel said.
Cain tends to do that.
It is interfering with my escapism.
Just for the record: I hate you all for forcing me to wake up everytime i visit PD for WOMPs (and accidentally keep reading).
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 19, 2013, 08:16:24 PM
Quote from: /b/earman on February 19, 2013, 08:15:26 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 19, 2013, 03:18:12 PM
But the sins of the father are not the sins of the son unless the son keeps committing those sins.
THIS!
I wish would could turn all thos enuclear warheads into power plants, and forbid building any town within 15 miles of it.
Not me. Nuclear weapons ended global war. I LIKE them.
"Grow up or die."
Fukken optimist, just you wait.
The future is right around the corner and you won't like it.
Quote from: /b/earman on February 19, 2013, 08:21:17 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 19, 2013, 08:16:24 PM
Quote from: /b/earman on February 19, 2013, 08:15:26 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 19, 2013, 03:18:12 PM
But the sins of the father are not the sins of the son unless the son keeps committing those sins.
THIS!
I wish would could turn all thos enuclear warheads into power plants, and forbid building any town within 15 miles of it.
Not me. Nuclear weapons ended global war. I LIKE them.
"Grow up or die."
What's stopping America from making new ones?
The fact that we have 6400 already, and you can kill every living thing on Earth, aside from those ocean vent worm things, with about 1000 warheads.
So why build more? They're expensive as hell to maintain, and you only have to kill everyone once. After that, it sort of loses the effect.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 19, 2013, 08:16:24 PM
Quote from: /b/earman on February 19, 2013, 08:15:26 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 19, 2013, 03:18:12 PM
But the sins of the father are not the sins of the son unless the son keeps committing those sins.
THIS!
I wish would could turn all thos enuclear warheads into power plants, and forbid building any town within 15 miles of it.
Not me. Nuclear weapons ended global war. I LIKE them.
"Grow up or die."
I'd like them more if we could find a way to deal with their refuse.
Also, excellent stuff.
Like, I kind of want to print it out and post it around, having heard some of my classmates talk about drones, etc. in a positive manner.
Quote from: :regret: on February 19, 2013, 08:24:46 PM
Just for the record: I hate you all for forcing me to wake up everytime i visit PD for WOMPs (and accidentally keep reading).
And I hate you all because you're primates.
QuoteFukken optimist, just you wait.
The future is right around the corner and you won't like it.
HAR! An optimist would expect those weapons to be USED. I
know, though, because I am a Holy Man™, that this will never happen. The world will just stagger along with its pants around its ankles and a stupid look on its face, until we all drown in our own shit.
If we DID nuke ourselves, alien archeologists would at least say "Clever monkeys, developed fission tech and then did what monkeys do." What they WILL say is, "Dumb bastards choked on their own waste like fruit flies in a test tube."
"Optimist." :lulz:
Quote from: Juana Go? on February 19, 2013, 08:27:12 PM
Like, I kind of want to print it out and post it around, having heard some of my classmates talk about drones, etc. in a positive manner.
Be my guest. Usual rules (slap my name on it, so they know whose door to kick in).
well... we do need the submersible drones to get rid of those damn vent worms that the nukes are gonna miss...
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 19, 2013, 08:28:56 PM
Quote from: Juana Go? on February 19, 2013, 08:27:12 PM
Like, I kind of want to print it out and post it around, having heard some of my classmates talk about drones, etc. in a positive manner.
Be my guest. Usual rules (slap my name on it, so they know whose door to kick in).
I need to go find myself a stapler that'll open all the way first, but I'm thinking about it.
Turn America's 15 inch dick into a 13 inch dick? It's still the biggest one around, and we can increase the power grid?
Does Russia have more nuclear warheads to this day, or did they disarm alot them making America #1?
I'd Google this shit myself, but roger probably has the credible sources with realistic numbers.
Quote from: /b/earman on February 19, 2013, 08:45:52 PM
Turn America's 15 inch dick into a 13 inch dick? It's still the biggest one around, and we can increase the power grid?
Doesn't really work that way. You could scavenge the fissionables, I suppose, but that would be like putting high-octane fuel in a smartcar. Why?
QuoteDoes Russia have more nuclear warheads to this day, or did they disarm alot them making America #1?
I'd Google this shit myself, but roger probably has the credible sources with realistic numbers.
As long as they have any warheads, they're a player, and as long as they have the 1000 Mt threshhold, they're a superpower, same as us. Russia is being fairly quiet right now, because Putin seems to value actual strength over international temper tantrums, but they're still there.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 19, 2013, 08:28:15 PM
Quote from: :regret: on February 19, 2013, 08:24:46 PM
Just for the record: I hate you all for forcing me to wake up everytime i visit PD for WOMPs (and accidentally keep reading).
And I hate you all because you're primates.
QuoteFukken optimist, just you wait.
The future is right around the corner and you won't like it.
HAR! An optimist would expect those weapons to be USED. I know, though, because I am a Holy Man™, that this will never happen. The world will just stagger along with its pants around its ankles and a stupid look on its face, until we all drown in our own shit.
If we DID nuke ourselves, alien archeologists would at least say "Clever monkeys, developed fission tech and then did what monkeys do." What they WILL say is, "Dumb bastards choked on their own waste like fruit flies in a test tube."
"Optimist." :lulz:
Sometimes the way you take unimaginably horrific scenarios and then, make them look like something you'd beg for gives me a hardon two foot wide!
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on February 19, 2013, 10:14:28 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on February 19, 2013, 08:28:15 PM
Quote from: :regret: on February 19, 2013, 08:24:46 PM
Just for the record: I hate you all for forcing me to wake up everytime i visit PD for WOMPs (and accidentally keep reading).
And I hate you all because you're primates.
QuoteFukken optimist, just you wait.
The future is right around the corner and you won't like it.
HAR! An optimist would expect those weapons to be USED. I know, though, because I am a Holy Man™, that this will never happen. The world will just stagger along with its pants around its ankles and a stupid look on its face, until we all drown in our own shit.
If we DID nuke ourselves, alien archeologists would at least say "Clever monkeys, developed fission tech and then did what monkeys do." What they WILL say is, "Dumb bastards choked on their own waste like fruit flies in a test tube."
"Optimist." :lulz:
Sometimes the way you take unimaginably horrific scenarios and then, make them look like something you'd beg for gives me a hardon two foot wide!
Doom is an absolute. The
method, however, is not.
Ironically, the very thing that is creating this push button warfare is also the thing preventing it from happening tomorrow:
Capitalism
The defense contractors said "how can we make a cool product that we can charge the government obscene amounts for, that will also minimize US casualties, so the US government will have more money to spend on our overpriced toys, rather than VA healthcare and emergency services?"
Ta-Da!
But, we will only use them on brown people in huts, and American citizens who don't bow when in the presence of their betters. Because if, God forbid, we were to use them on countries that actually pose a threat to our security, like China, Russia, or Pakistan, it would be devastating to our "trade".
"Trade"= Where our cheap workers are. Ruinous to hedge funds, and whatnot.
Plus, since the mid-90s, the American plutocracy has had an envious streak of the Russian ogliarchs. I mean "...we/capitalism won. Why are there Russians with bigger yachts/dicks than me? Must be I didn't capitalism hard enough. "