...on the other hand, anti-zero-tolerance legislation makes RWHN cry.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/11/pop-tart-gun-bill_n_2852472.html?ir=Politics&ncid=edlinkusaolp00000009
It really is sad that there is a need for a law to tell people to use common sense.
What's even worse is that there isn't every single parent at the school where these stupid suspensions are happening getting outraged and making the school change policy. The "It's not my kid" and "That's just how it is, what can you do?" way of thinking has become too entrenched I fear.
IME, the parents often DO get outraged.
Nobody gives a shit.
Quote from: stelz on March 11, 2013, 04:17:55 PM
IME, the parents often DO get outraged.
Nobody gives a shit.
I've said it a dozen times...This is the sort of shit America DEMANDED for decades. The hair shirt punishment freaks INSIST on voting for people who will "get tough on crime" in a system that is already tough on crime.
Eventually, to get elected, you have to expand your working definition of crime.
Let me see if I have this straight there is no effort to legislate at all on gun ownership or access to guns.
but if a twelve year old makes a pretend gun people raise hell?
For me that is worse then no effort at all.
Quote from: Faust on March 11, 2013, 04:31:04 PM
Let me see if I have this straight there is no effort to legislate at all on gun ownership or access to guns.
but if a twelve year old makes a pretend gun people raise hell?
For me that is worse then no effort at all.
Faust, it's almost impossible to explain to a European just exactly how insane the United States is. Canadians have a good idea, in the same sense that you might know that your neighbor is a little nutty, but
you've never been in his basement, so you don't know exactly
how nutty he is.
We're that neighbor. And those Goddamn Canucks aren't seeing the basement without a warrant.
Quote from: Sita on March 11, 2013, 04:07:58 PM
It really is sad that there is a need for a law to tell people to use common sense.
What's even worse is that there isn't every single parent at the school where these stupid suspensions are happening getting outraged and making the school change policy. The "It's not my kid" and "That's just how it is, what can you do?" way of thinking has become too entrenched I fear.
THIS. If this happened at my daughter's school the Super, Principal, and School Board would be getting an earful on a daily basis until they reversed course.
I'm surprised the school didn't ban pop-tarts.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 11, 2013, 04:40:46 PM
Quote from: Faust on March 11, 2013, 04:31:04 PM
Let me see if I have this straight there is no effort to legislate at all on gun ownership or access to guns.
but if a twelve year old makes a pretend gun people raise hell?
For me that is worse then no effort at all.
Faust, it's almost impossible to explain to a European just exactly how insane the United States is. Canadians have a good idea, in the same sense that you might know that your neighbor is a little nutty, but you've never been in his basement, so you don't know exactly how nutty he is.
We're that neighbor. And those Goddamn Canucks aren't seeing the basement without a warrant.
It's just a new level, I can accept there are people who don't want regulation, and I can accept that there are people who do, so now we have a third group who don't really want to deal with the issue of actually owning guns, but want to feel involved so they get outraged when a kid points a poptart at someone menacingly. That is going to take a while to get my head around.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 11, 2013, 05:10:54 PM
Quote from: Sita on March 11, 2013, 04:07:58 PM
It really is sad that there is a need for a law to tell people to use common sense.
What's even worse is that there isn't every single parent at the school where these stupid suspensions are happening getting outraged and making the school change policy. The "It's not my kid" and "That's just how it is, what can you do?" way of thinking has become too entrenched I fear.
THIS. If this happened at my daughter's school the Super, Principal, and School Board would be getting an earful on a daily basis until they reversed course.
I'm surprised the school didn't ban pop-tarts.
Because schools really DO reverse course if you stay on their ass, instead of lying and trumping up even MORE absurd shit on your kids.
RWHN: Makes a big pretense of enforcing sobriety because he's mainlining Derpfairy dust.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 11, 2013, 04:40:46 PM
Quote from: Faust on March 11, 2013, 04:31:04 PM
Let me see if I have this straight there is no effort to legislate at all on gun ownership or access to guns.
but if a twelve year old makes a pretend gun people raise hell?
For me that is worse then no effort at all.
Faust, it's almost impossible to explain to a European just exactly how insane the United States is. Canadians have a good idea, in the same sense that you might know that your neighbor is a little nutty, but you've never been in his basement, so you don't know exactly how nutty he is.
We're that neighbor. And those Goddamn Canucks aren't seeing the basement without a warrant.
I think the Pop Tart looks like a square stylized penis and balls, and they need to press charges on this kid for molesting himself.
Quote from: stelz on March 11, 2013, 05:24:25 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 11, 2013, 04:40:46 PM
Quote from: Faust on March 11, 2013, 04:31:04 PM
Let me see if I have this straight there is no effort to legislate at all on gun ownership or access to guns.
but if a twelve year old makes a pretend gun people raise hell?
For me that is worse then no effort at all.
Faust, it's almost impossible to explain to a European just exactly how insane the United States is. Canadians have a good idea, in the same sense that you might know that your neighbor is a little nutty, but you've never been in his basement, so you don't know exactly how nutty he is.
We're that neighbor. And those Goddamn Canucks aren't seeing the basement without a warrant.
I think the Pop Tart looks like a square stylized penis and balls, and they need to press charges on this kid for molesting himself.
Please don't give them any more ideas :horrormirth:
Quote from: Faust on March 11, 2013, 05:18:21 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 11, 2013, 04:40:46 PM
Quote from: Faust on March 11, 2013, 04:31:04 PM
Let me see if I have this straight there is no effort to legislate at all on gun ownership or access to guns.
but if a twelve year old makes a pretend gun people raise hell?
For me that is worse then no effort at all.
Faust, it's almost impossible to explain to a European just exactly how insane the United States is. Canadians have a good idea, in the same sense that you might know that your neighbor is a little nutty, but you've never been in his basement, so you don't know exactly how nutty he is.
We're that neighbor. And those Goddamn Canucks aren't seeing the basement without a warrant.
It's just a new level, I can accept there are people who don't want regulation, and I can accept that there are people who do, so now we have a third group who don't really want to deal with the issue of actually owning guns, but want to feel involved so they get outraged when a kid points a poptart at someone menacingly. That is going to take a while to get my head around.
I wouldn't, if I were you. There's nothing there but a headache, at best.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 11, 2013, 05:10:54 PM
Quote from: Sita on March 11, 2013, 04:07:58 PM
It really is sad that there is a need for a law to tell people to use common sense.
What's even worse is that there isn't every single parent at the school where these stupid suspensions are happening getting outraged and making the school change policy. The "It's not my kid" and "That's just how it is, what can you do?" way of thinking has become too entrenched I fear.
THIS. If this happened at my daughter's school the Super, Principal, and School Board would be getting an earful on a daily basis until they reversed course.
I'm surprised the school didn't ban pop-tarts.
This is the face of zero tolerance, RWHN.
Quote from: stelz on March 11, 2013, 05:22:52 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 11, 2013, 05:10:54 PM
Quote from: Sita on March 11, 2013, 04:07:58 PM
It really is sad that there is a need for a law to tell people to use common sense.
What's even worse is that there isn't every single parent at the school where these stupid suspensions are happening getting outraged and making the school change policy. The "It's not my kid" and "That's just how it is, what can you do?" way of thinking has become too entrenched I fear.
THIS. If this happened at my daughter's school the Super, Principal, and School Board would be getting an earful on a daily basis until they reversed course.
I'm surprised the school didn't ban pop-tarts.
Because schools really DO reverse course if you stay on their ass, instead of lying and trumping up even MORE absurd shit on your kids.
It just happened here. The school department wanted to go through a redistricting process and shuffle kids all over the place. The citizens got together, said "Fuck No!", and the school nixed the redistricting. It took some work and rallying to pull it off but it did work.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 11, 2013, 05:58:41 PM
Quote from: stelz on March 11, 2013, 05:22:52 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 11, 2013, 05:10:54 PM
Quote from: Sita on March 11, 2013, 04:07:58 PM
It really is sad that there is a need for a law to tell people to use common sense.
What's even worse is that there isn't every single parent at the school where these stupid suspensions are happening getting outraged and making the school change policy. The "It's not my kid" and "That's just how it is, what can you do?" way of thinking has become too entrenched I fear.
THIS. If this happened at my daughter's school the Super, Principal, and School Board would be getting an earful on a daily basis until they reversed course.
I'm surprised the school didn't ban pop-tarts.
Because schools really DO reverse course if you stay on their ass, instead of lying and trumping up even MORE absurd shit on your kids.
It just happened here. The school department wanted to go through a redistricting process and shuffle kids all over the place. The citizens city councilmen's families and other smalltown "elite" got together, said "Fuck No!", and the school nixed the redistricting. It took some work and rallying to pull it off but it did work.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 11, 2013, 04:19:33 PM
Quote from: stelz on March 11, 2013, 04:17:55 PM
IME, the parents often DO get outraged.
Nobody gives a shit.
I've said it a dozen times...This is the sort of shit America DEMANDED for decades. The hair shirt punishment freaks INSIST on voting for people who will "get tough on crime" in a system that is already tough on crime.
Eventually, to get elected, you have to expand your working definition of crime.
The bold gives rise to many of the fucked up decisions in history. I wonder, will there eventually be a shift from "Freed from" legislation to "freedom to"?
A lot of stupid laws to me seem based in the need to free or reassure people that they will not encounter X, or if you do there is some kind of recourse. I think a shift to "You are free to encounter X, and there is no recourse if you do" If this law was from the opposite angle and it's kind of hard to disagree with.
It also builds a degree of "Deal with it" into law, which I suspect 'Merika could really do with.
Anyway, on topic, I'd say the best way to deal with this would be for every parent who disagrees to send their child in with a pop-tart-penis. Let everyone shit themselves over potential lawsuits until they realise it's just food and fuck off. This is why I would be a terrible parent.
£5 says the kid grows up to make erotic cakes anyway.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 11, 2013, 05:53:26 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 11, 2013, 05:10:54 PM
Quote from: Sita on March 11, 2013, 04:07:58 PM
It really is sad that there is a need for a law to tell people to use common sense.
What's even worse is that there isn't every single parent at the school where these stupid suspensions are happening getting outraged and making the school change policy. The "It's not my kid" and "That's just how it is, what can you do?" way of thinking has become too entrenched I fear.
THIS. If this happened at my daughter's school the Super, Principal, and School Board would be getting an earful on a daily basis until they reversed course.
I'm surprised the school didn't ban pop-tarts.
This is the face of zero tolerance, RWHN.
:barstool:
Quote from: Sita on March 11, 2013, 05:52:45 PM
Quote from: stelz on March 11, 2013, 05:24:25 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 11, 2013, 04:40:46 PM
Quote from: Faust on March 11, 2013, 04:31:04 PM
Let me see if I have this straight there is no effort to legislate at all on gun ownership or access to guns.
but if a twelve year old makes a pretend gun people raise hell?
For me that is worse then no effort at all.
Faust, it's almost impossible to explain to a European just exactly how insane the United States is. Canadians have a good idea, in the same sense that you might know that your neighbor is a little nutty, but you've never been in his basement, so you don't know exactly how nutty he is.
We're that neighbor. And those Goddamn Canucks aren't seeing the basement without a warrant.
I think the Pop Tart looks like a square stylized penis and balls, and they need to press charges on this kid for molesting himself.
Please don't give them any more ideas :horrormirth:
I believe children have been arrested on child pornography related charges for sending naked (or half naked or whatever) pictures of themselves, to other kids of their own age.
Quote from: Junkenstein on March 11, 2013, 06:04:02 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 11, 2013, 04:19:33 PM
Quote from: stelz on March 11, 2013, 04:17:55 PM
IME, the parents often DO get outraged.
Nobody gives a shit.
I've said it a dozen times...This is the sort of shit America DEMANDED for decades. The hair shirt punishment freaks INSIST on voting for people who will "get tough on crime" in a system that is already tough on crime.
Eventually, to get elected, you have to expand your working definition of crime.
The bold gives rise to many of the fucked up decisions in history. I wonder, will there eventually be a shift from "Freed from" legislation to "freedom to"?
A lot of stupid laws to me seem based in the need to free or reassure people that they will not encounter X, or if you do there is some kind of recourse. I think a shift to "You are free to encounter X, and there is no recourse if you do" If this law was from the opposite angle and it's kind of hard to disagree with.
It also builds a degree of "Deal with it" into law, which I suspect 'Merika could really do with.
Anyway, on topic, I'd say the best way to deal with this would be for every parent who disagrees to send their child in with a pop-tart-penis. Let everyone shit themselves over potential lawsuits until they realise it's just food and fuck off. This is why I would be a terrible parent.
£5 says the kid grows up to make erotic cakes anyway.
Just leave the wrapper on. http://www.flickr.com/photos/sethyg/2374167074/
In the UK, Europe and US if google is to believed.
"Sexting" appears to be the term the kool kids use. I recall a few cases where the child was charged with manufacturing child pornography by taking/sending the picture.Can't see immediate details about results, I would hope that a few got dropped as it's bloody stupid. I suspect others resulted in some kind of legal entanglement that is court locked due to the ages of those involved.
Quote from: stelz on March 11, 2013, 06:09:53 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on March 11, 2013, 06:04:02 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 11, 2013, 04:19:33 PM
Quote from: stelz on March 11, 2013, 04:17:55 PM
IME, the parents often DO get outraged.
Nobody gives a shit.
I've said it a dozen times...This is the sort of shit America DEMANDED for decades. The hair shirt punishment freaks INSIST on voting for people who will "get tough on crime" in a system that is already tough on crime.
Eventually, to get elected, you have to expand your working definition of crime.
The bold gives rise to many of the fucked up decisions in history. I wonder, will there eventually be a shift from "Freed from" legislation to "freedom to"?
A lot of stupid laws to me seem based in the need to free or reassure people that they will not encounter X, or if you do there is some kind of recourse. I think a shift to "You are free to encounter X, and there is no recourse if you do" If this law was from the opposite angle and it's kind of hard to disagree with.
It also builds a degree of "Deal with it" into law, which I suspect 'Merika could really do with.
Anyway, on topic, I'd say the best way to deal with this would be for every parent who disagrees to send their child in with a pop-tart-penis. Let everyone shit themselves over potential lawsuits until they realise it's just food and fuck off. This is why I would be a terrible parent.
£5 says the kid grows up to make erotic cakes anyway.
Just leave the wrapper on. http://www.flickr.com/photos/sethyg/2374167074/
I was thinking more like:
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2118/2152408327_8fe40201c7_z.jpg)
Subtlety is not the way to go here. Tie it in to HIV/Sex/gay pride awareness week or something for extra awkward conversations.
Edited to show picture. Apparently it's 1000 words so this is one of my longer posts.
Quote from: stelz on March 11, 2013, 05:22:52 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 11, 2013, 05:10:54 PM
Quote from: Sita on March 11, 2013, 04:07:58 PM
It really is sad that there is a need for a law to tell people to use common sense.
What's even worse is that there isn't every single parent at the school where these stupid suspensions are happening getting outraged and making the school change policy. The "It's not my kid" and "That's just how it is, what can you do?" way of thinking has become too entrenched I fear.
THIS. If this happened at my daughter's school the Super, Principal, and School Board would be getting an earful on a daily basis until they reversed course.
I'm surprised the school didn't ban pop-tarts.
Because schools really DO reverse course if you stay on their ass, instead of lying and trumping up even MORE absurd shit on your kids.
RWHN: Makes a big pretense of enforcing sobriety because he's mainlining Derpfairy dust.
Well, they used to, sometimes. I suspect that as this lovely little culture of fear we've developed settled into schools, it's become near impossible to get stupid-ass decisions like this reversed. Zero-tolerance is total horseshit, btw, RWHN. 100% fact.
Quote from: stelz on March 11, 2013, 06:03:20 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 11, 2013, 05:58:41 PM
Quote from: stelz on March 11, 2013, 05:22:52 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 11, 2013, 05:10:54 PM
Quote from: Sita on March 11, 2013, 04:07:58 PM
It really is sad that there is a need for a law to tell people to use common sense.
What's even worse is that there isn't every single parent at the school where these stupid suspensions are happening getting outraged and making the school change policy. The "It's not my kid" and "That's just how it is, what can you do?" way of thinking has become too entrenched I fear.
THIS. If this happened at my daughter's school the Super, Principal, and School Board would be getting an earful on a daily basis until they reversed course.
I'm surprised the school didn't ban pop-tarts.
Because schools really DO reverse course if you stay on their ass, instead of lying and trumping up even MORE absurd shit on your kids.
It just happened here. The school department wanted to go through a redistricting process and shuffle kids all over the place. The citizens city councilmen's families and other smalltown "elite" got together, said "Fuck No!", and the school nixed the redistricting. It took some work and rallying to pull it off but it did work.
:lol: Also, redistricting doesn't fall into the culture-of-fear thing like poptart guns do.
Quote from: stelz on March 11, 2013, 06:03:20 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 11, 2013, 05:58:41 PM
Quote from: stelz on March 11, 2013, 05:22:52 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 11, 2013, 05:10:54 PM
Quote from: Sita on March 11, 2013, 04:07:58 PM
It really is sad that there is a need for a law to tell people to use common sense.
What's even worse is that there isn't every single parent at the school where these stupid suspensions are happening getting outraged and making the school change policy. The "It's not my kid" and "That's just how it is, what can you do?" way of thinking has become too entrenched I fear.
THIS. If this happened at my daughter's school the Super, Principal, and School Board would be getting an earful on a daily basis until they reversed course.
I'm surprised the school didn't ban pop-tarts.
Because schools really DO reverse course if you stay on their ass, instead of lying and trumping up even MORE absurd shit on your kids.
It just happened here. The school department wanted to go through a redistricting process and shuffle kids all over the place. The citizens city councilmen's families and other smalltown "elite" got together, said "Fuck No!", and the school nixed the redistricting. It took some work and rallying to pull it off but it did work.
Nope. The meetings were full of poor, blue-collars and Somali families. About as far from elite as you can get.
Quote from: Juana Go? on March 11, 2013, 06:21:13 PM
Quote from: stelz on March 11, 2013, 05:22:52 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 11, 2013, 05:10:54 PM
Quote from: Sita on March 11, 2013, 04:07:58 PM
It really is sad that there is a need for a law to tell people to use common sense.
What's even worse is that there isn't every single parent at the school where these stupid suspensions are happening getting outraged and making the school change policy. The "It's not my kid" and "That's just how it is, what can you do?" way of thinking has become too entrenched I fear.
THIS. If this happened at my daughter's school the Super, Principal, and School Board would be getting an earful on a daily basis until they reversed course.
I'm surprised the school didn't ban pop-tarts.
Because schools really DO reverse course if you stay on their ass, instead of lying and trumping up even MORE absurd shit on your kids.
RWHN: Makes a big pretense of enforcing sobriety because he's mainlining Derpfairy dust.
Well, they used to, sometimes. I suspect that as this lovely little culture of fear we've developed settled into schools, it's become near impossible to get stupid-ass decisions like this reversed. Zero-tolerance is total horseshit, btw, RWHN. 100% fact.
No shit? That's why I've lectured to school administration that zero-tolerance drug policies are wrong and shouldnt be used. But have fun having at the man made of straw.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 11, 2013, 06:24:14 PM
Quote from: Juana Go? on March 11, 2013, 06:21:13 PM
Quote from: stelz on March 11, 2013, 05:22:52 PM
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name? on March 11, 2013, 05:10:54 PM
Quote from: Sita on March 11, 2013, 04:07:58 PM
It really is sad that there is a need for a law to tell people to use common sense.
What's even worse is that there isn't every single parent at the school where these stupid suspensions are happening getting outraged and making the school change policy. The "It's not my kid" and "That's just how it is, what can you do?" way of thinking has become too entrenched I fear.
THIS. If this happened at my daughter's school the Super, Principal, and School Board would be getting an earful on a daily basis until they reversed course.
I'm surprised the school didn't ban pop-tarts.
Because schools really DO reverse course if you stay on their ass, instead of lying and trumping up even MORE absurd shit on your kids.
RWHN: Makes a big pretense of enforcing sobriety because he's mainlining Derpfairy dust.
Well, they used to, sometimes. I suspect that as this lovely little culture of fear we've developed settled into schools, it's become near impossible to get stupid-ass decisions like this reversed. Zero-tolerance is total horseshit, btw, RWHN. 100% fact.
No shit? That's why I've lectured to school administration that zero-tolerance drug policies are wrong and shouldnt be used. But have fun having at the man made of straw.
Sorry, dude. Zero tolerance is the inevitable outcome of prohibition.
Certainly on the drug front. But not on the violence one, like the poptart gun.
The zero-tolerance policy on violence is humans being dumb, panicky animals.
30 pages.
Quote from: Juana Go? on March 11, 2013, 06:34:46 PM
The zero-tolerance policy on violence is humans being dumb, panicky animals.
Naw. I think it's a little more sinister than that.
The zero tolerance policies are driven by insurance rules.
The zero tolerance laws are driven by lobbyists from Corrections Corporation of America (CCA), who are primarily responsible for the sort of laws that make school a pipeline to prison or the military.
Now, I wonder if CCA owns any stock in the insurance companies that insure the schools?
Hmm, good point. The US prison population skyrocketed 1,664% between 1990 and 2009, and ZT became a thing in 1994. So yes, that makes sense.
Quote from: Juana Go? on March 11, 2013, 07:15:42 PM
Hmm, good point. The US prison population skyrocketed 1,664% between 1990 and 2009, and ZT became a thing in 1994. So yes, that makes sense.
1,664%
1,664%1,664%
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 11, 2013, 07:16:32 PM
Quote from: Juana Go? on March 11, 2013, 07:15:42 PM
Hmm, good point. The US prison population skyrocketed 1,664% between 1990 and 2009, and ZT became a thing in 1994. So yes, that makes sense.
1,664%
1,664%
1,664%
doesn't matter they were all criminals anyways
Quote from: six to the quixotic on March 11, 2013, 07:34:13 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 11, 2013, 07:16:32 PM
Quote from: Juana Go? on March 11, 2013, 07:15:42 PM
Hmm, good point. The US prison population skyrocketed 1,664% between 1990 and 2009, and ZT became a thing in 1994. So yes, that makes sense.
1,664%
1,664%
1,664%
doesn't matter they were all criminals anyways
Well, sure, if the police suddenly became 1,664% better at catching crooks. :lulz:
Incidentally, if you times that number by 30, that's about how overexposed Goldman Sachs is in regards to derivatives versus its assets.
Quote from: Cain on March 11, 2013, 07:35:48 PM
Incidentally, if you times that number by 30, that's about how overexposed Goldman Sachs is in regards to derivatives versus its assets.
There's no such thing as "overexposed", when it comes to GS. They're too big to fail.
I'd bet there's a large spike 1999-2002. Source? Looks like time for MATH
Yep. :horrormirth: Source for that first number here (https://www.aclu.org/files/assets/bankingonbondage_20111102.pdf). (ETA: re-read the source and that's the private prison rate. The total increase between 1970, the beginning of the TUFF ON CRIME era, and 2005, the rate was 700%. Which is still breath taking, but more explicable than the other number, since private prisons only became a thing for adults in 1990).
Quote from: Junkenstein on March 11, 2013, 07:37:22 PM
I'd bet there's a large spike 1999-2002. Source? Looks like time for MATH
I'll look when I get a chance.
Also, I haven't finished it, but there's a really good book on this subject, called Punishment for Sale, which I can get for anyone interested.
Quote from: Cain on March 11, 2013, 06:34:52 PM
30 pages.
I think Nixon-San should be called in LONG before that happens. :lulz:
Quote from: Juana Go? on March 11, 2013, 07:51:25 PM
Also, I haven't finished it, but there's a really good book on this subject, called Punishment for Sale, which I can get for anyone interested.
Colour me interested!
Quote from: Junkenstein on March 11, 2013, 08:26:47 PM
Quote from: Juana Go? on March 11, 2013, 07:51:25 PM
Also, I haven't finished it, but there's a really good book on this subject, called Punishment for Sale, which I can get for anyone interested.
Colour me interested!
PM me your email addy and I'll link you to the DL. :)