Most of the time, I feel like I should rate "fair to average" in the "Parenting Skills" category. I mean, I play with my kids, I try to help them maintain their innocence and wonder, I try to teach them awesome science whenever possible, but I also snap and bark at them like the idiot monkey I am, sometimes when I play with them I'm doing it out of obligation and not because I really want to, and in general I am consciously aware of a few things I could and should improve about my parenting, so there must be quite a few things I'm failing at and don't realize.
So, given that, I would expect my kids to be "fair to average" in the smarts-and-behavior category, but that isn't what happens. Compared to the 10 or so neighborhood kids that are always breezing through our house (apparently ours is the only kid-friendly house out of all of them), my two children are light years ahead of the rest in just about every category. This makes me wonder:
IF I CAN DO IT, WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH THE REST OF THESE PARENTS OUT THERE?
I mean, how motherfucking hard is it to raise kids who
- Don't steal things
- Don't lie
- Get to eat reasonably healthy food at reasonably predictable intervals*
- Know how to share while also respecting the property of others
- Don't play the "do it my way or I'm going home" game
- etc.
I am not a rock star, and neither is my wife. We don't make a ton of money. We don't hire nannies and tutors. We just understand how to put the kids' needs ahead of our own desires, which seems to be a skill nobody knows anymore. What I don't understand is nobody taught us that skill -- not our parents, not the schools -- it just seems to be the natural order of things, so it doesn't seem like that much of a sacrifice. But if WE can do this, 90% by instinct and the other 10% by failing hard the first time and trying a different approach, why are we in what appears to be such a tiny minority of parents?
But these other kids who come over here, apparently at their houses, they never eat anything, they aren't expected to be civilized, they can take things without asking, they prefer to scream and kick and punch rather than discuss things, and yet their parents are "strict" and "don't allow us to do nothing." I don't understand.
* Seriously, my kids' doctor was actually surprised at their recent check-up that neither of them were anemic. Apparently, being anemic due to under-eating in general or overeating junk food is now considered "average." WHAT THE FUCK AMERICA?
My theory/opinion...shifts in priorities.
Too much focus on providing materially compared to providing socially/emotionally.
My kids have gone through this divorce like champs because despite all of the screeching my ex and I have done at each other through this whole thing. Without question, the understanding was the screeching doesn't happen in front of the kids AND the kids get a united front as parents. That is because as parent the social/emotional needs have always been #1. And that, in part, is why my kids are happy, healthy, and thriving.
Okay, kids fuck up. They're kids. They lie, steal (silly, LITTLE pilfering, I mean. Little kids stealing a lipgloss off my bathroom counter, yes. Going through my wallet, NO), make shit up, try to get away with mouthing off to non-parent adults and generally act little little douchenozzles until they're about 24 years old.
Maybe I've been in the South too long but I'm a believer in "It takes a village." If they're being douchey, call their parents. In front of them.
If the parents are outraged and correct the behavior, WIN.
If the parents are lackadaisical, fail to respond entirely or get defensive with YOU, Get that kid out of your house. Promptly. I don't care if it hurts their feelings, tell them they aren't invited back at your house. There are a couple of reasons for this:
1. If you let the kid stay, it will only get worse: "My mom told YOU. Haha." The kid has now been proactively taught the lesson to disrespect you.
2. It only gets worse as they get older. The kid gains a sense of entitlement being around your things. There will come a day when this kid is a teenager and if he's still around, the minute you trust your kid to hold down the fort while you're at the store, he will treat your home like a used sock at a Cosplay Con. When it gets so bad, you finally have to ask him to leave, he gets angry at you and starts pulling "pranks" like nails in your tires and stolen bicycles.
3. Keeping the nasty kid around teaches YOUR kid a fucked up lesson too.
4. The pain of being UNinvited from your home might be the first and only lesson this kid gets about the embarrassing social consequences of being a douchenozzle and may, in fact, make him sorry enough to apologize and behave himself.
I'm wondering: where do you live, V3X?
I live around Phoenix.
And yeah, I know kids fuck up. Mine aren't PERFECT or anything. But they don't steal actual things from other kids. Also we do involve their parents, but we do get a lot of the "meh, whatever, kids are kids LOL" bullshit.
Also they eat ALL THE FOOD. But that's normal, I don't worry about that too much.
As a child I lied, I stole (shoplifting, not from other kids, but still, stupid) I spraypainted and vandalized. My parent's parented me, my sister, and my brother about the same. I was the only one who got in trouble, my sister was completely straight edge and straight A, my brother drank a little and got B's. Kids are different, some kids are easy. I'm not the best dad in the world but my daughter is a basically good kid, so I got lucky. Sounds like you got lucky too. Sometimes a shitty kid has shitty parents, sometimes he or she just has unlucky parents.
it's a mixed bag in my observation.
when my sister and i were growing up, my parents did a good job, and we were both 'model kids'. we behaved very well.
when we saw other kids acting up in public, and it was obvious to us that their parents were doing it wrong. they obviously weren't laying down the law, or were inconsistent, etc.
when we had our first child this was reinforced. my wife and i thought we were just awesome parents because this was so easy and our child behaved so well.
then we had our second child. he's hell on wheels and we struggle every damned day. he's a good kid, and smart, but it's tough. (i never used the word 'willful' as much as i have these past couple of years.) I'd still say he's above average in behavior to the untamed masses' kiddos, but he doesn't have the inherent empathy and consideration that my older one has.
so, although it is inexcusable for the parents to allow such behavior with a shrug and a 'lol, kids!', i understand, only recently, that it can be motherfucking hard to raise some kids to maintain proper behavior while unsupervised.
We do have headaches. My son is borderline autistic, and my daughter was born with a severe (~73 degree) curvature of her spine (Thanks, Zoloft! LOL). So we aren't exactly the Brady Bunch or anything. My son has wild mood swings, tantrums, etc. It can be awful to deal with sometimes, especially in public where we can't just let him cry it out, but we refuse to give in to his demands just because he's making demands, and we can't hit him with things because he has an attractive face and I'd hate to mess that up for him.
But there are clues that other parents give fewer fucks than we do about their kids. Things like "we don't ever have food at our house," but their parents have brand new cars. Or the kids go to school unwashed, hair all greasy, clothes dirty and/or worn out, but the parents always have their makeup done, their suit pressed, etc. It just bugs me to see so many kids who get stuck so far down on their parents' list of priorities.
i hear you, man.
i see it all the time,too.
for instance, my wife does lunch monitor at my son's kindergarten, and she said there's a couple kids that come to school with a bag of chips for their lunch. like a family size bag of chips. only. regularly. wtf?
in dealing with my younger son, my wife and i will not infrequently express that we feel like bad parents because of how difficult it can be. but being a bad parent is probably like what i've heard about being a madman. if you worry that you are one, you probably aren't.
A few thoughts:
Often, "We don't have any food at my house" is kid code for "The food at my house isn't as tasty and exotic as the food at your house, so I'm gonna eat all your food so I can say I'm not hungry when I go home and my mom tries to give me meatloaf and peas".
Also, often kids who respect the boundaries in their own home know that different boundaries apply in different places, and act like it's a free-for-all as soon as they're in a new environment. That means that you have to set boundaries for them in YOUR home.
The apparent contradiction in "my parents are strict and don't let us do anything" coming from a kid that has no apparent manners or boundaries is something I've seen over and over again, especially from kids who are routinely spanked for misbehavior, or have similarly authoritarian punishments. Not to say that spanking is bad, but when parents rely on it to the exclusion of other useful parental tools like talking sense, shaming, and applying guilt, a kid's sole sense of moral development becomes "whether I got caught". So, those rotten beasts who act like a pack of baboons at your house, might, indeed, get their asses beat for similar behavior at home... but Momma ain't there to belt 'em good, so all bets are off.
Lastly, the correct answer to "Well, kids will be kids" is, "If that's how you're raising him, he is no longer welcome at my house, I'm sorry."
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 04, 2013, 11:20:52 PM
A few thoughts:
Often, "We don't have any food at my house" is kid code for "The food at my house isn't as tasty and exotic as the food at your house, so I'm gonna eat all your food so I can say I'm not hungry when I go home and my mom tries to give me meatloaf and peas".
Also, often kids who respect the boundaries in their own home know that different boundaries apply in different places, and act like it's a free-for-all as soon as they're in a new environment. That means that you have to set boundaries for them in YOUR home.
The apparent contradiction in "my parents are strict and don't let us do anything" coming from a kid that has no apparent manners or boundaries is something I've seen over and over again, especially from kids who are routinely spanked for misbehavior, or have similarly authoritarian punishments. Not to say that spanking is bad, but when parents rely on it to the exclusion of other useful parental tools like talking sense, shaming, and applying guilt, a kid's sole sense of moral development becomes "whether I got caught". So, those rotten beasts who act like a pack of baboons at your house, might, indeed, get their asses beat for similar behavior at home... but Momma ain't there to belt 'em good, so all bets are off.
Lastly, the correct answer to "Well, kids will be kids" is, "If that's how you're raising him, he is no longer welcome at my house, I'm sorry."
That's helpful! Thanks. I guess there's a lot going on that simple assumptions don't necessarily explain very well. Of course, it would be hard to find food less exotic than what we have around most of the time (ramen, PB&J, occasional fruit snacks). But on the food thing specifically, I notice that almost none of these kids' families actually do "lunch time" or "dinner time." I don't know what it's like in their houses, but I can't imagine having any sanity without routines (not that we have many of them), even if they do seem 'old fashioned.'
I'm not really pulling my hair out in exasperation at these kids, they actually are fairly good for the most part except for one or two of them that aren't allowed inside (and their parents know it, and know why). It's just that it seems like they're lawless barbarians most of the time, like tiny little Visigoths.
Kids fucking love ramen, if they don't have to (or aren't allowed to) eat it all the time. It's pretty much empty calories. If you have store-bought bread and non-hippie peanut butter, that shit is like a total nom-treat to kids whose parents won't feed them that kind of thing. Jam is pure sugar. Fruit snacks are basically candy. Plus, kids tend to like whatever food isn't on offer at their house.
So, yeah, that might very well be your answer.
Peanut butter is horrific.
A friend of mine and his girlfriend, due to money issues, once lived off peanut butter and nothing else for about 3 weeks. The results were...not pretty.
Peanut butter is a miracle food. It is second only to bacon in Vitamin Awesome, I'll have you know. And the calories in peanut butter are good calories.
You know what's better than peanut butter AND bacon?
peanut butter and bacon.
I am not terribly fond of peanut butter, although, every once in a while, it's really good for a minute.
It's really good when you're hungry as a she-wolf and there's nothing better in the house. :lol:
Kind of like eating putty if you don't doctor it up, though.
I did the WIC thing once, when I was prego with my son.
Peanut butter. Peanut butter. Peanut butter. So much peanut butter.
And MILK MILK MILK MILK MILK.
They didn't CARE that I'm lactose intolerant. "TAKE THE MILK VOUCHERS!"
Sounds like the main issue with your kids friends is lack of parental attention.
And it's also true that food at someone's elses house always looks tastier than the crap your mom serves you.
But that doesn't explain the greasy unwashed look you describe, and lack of parental attention does.
My best guess based on the info in this thread combined with personal experience as a parent is that it is a combination of those and other unnamed factors.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 05, 2013, 05:18:32 AM
I did the WIC thing once, when I was prego with my son.
Peanut butter. Peanut butter. Peanut butter. So much peanut butter.
WIC is one of the few things America does that makes me proud.
All things considered, that's a very sad statement.
Quote from: insideout on April 05, 2013, 09:48:20 PM
Sounds like the main issue with your kids friends is lack of parental attention.
And it's also true that food at someone's elses house always looks tastier than the crap your mom serves you.
But that doesn't explain the greasy unwashed look you describe, and lack of parental attention does.
My best guess based on the info in this thread combined with personal experience as a parent is that it is a combination of those and other unnamed factors.
OR
The kid is just being a shit. I was a shit. It's part of being a kid in America...Or was. My kids aren't shits. I can't understand why.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 05, 2013, 10:04:34 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 05, 2013, 05:18:32 AM
I did the WIC thing once, when I was prego with my son.
Peanut butter. Peanut butter. Peanut butter. So much peanut butter.
WIC is one of the few things America does that makes me proud.
All things considered, that's a very sad statement.
Yeah, WIC wears a white hat.
It's about not feeding your kids Cheetos for breakfast and getting them accustomed to actual FOOD.
This makes me expect it to go away soon. Can't have THAT in America
(TM).
Oh man, I fucking loved WIC. Except for the dickholes at S&S that were like "we don't need to stock 1lb bags of non-organic carrots because you can get cans instead and that's totally complying with their rules for us!" Because canned carrots are worth eating :vom:
Something I learned from my mom recently, about how she raised me and my brother:
Never threaten any punishment for misbehavior that you aren't 100% committed to following up on. Severity of punishment is less important than consistency.
Looking back, I realized that one of the major differences between me and many other kids was that I had nearly zero desire to test my parents' boundaries. There was no thrill in trying to get away with being a little shit, because being a little shit meant being punished for it.
Quote from: Cainad on April 06, 2013, 03:13:15 AM
Something I learned from my mom recently, about how she raised me and my brother:
Never threaten any punishment for misbehavior that you aren't 100% committed to following up on. Severity of punishment is less important than consistency.
Looking back, I realized that one of the major differences between me and many other kids was that I had nearly zero desire to test my parents' boundaries. There was no thrill in trying to get away with being a little shit, because being a little shit meant being punished for it.
:lulz: One of the things I never wavered from was following through, no matter how crazy my threats were. I mean, one time I threatened to spray them with the kitchen spray hose if they didn't stop whatever annoying behavior they were engaged in, and they didn't stop. So I hosed them. They were stunned, and I had a mess to clean up, but ever since then they have never questioned whether I would do whatever crazy shit it takes. (There have been a couple of glasses of cold water over the head, too, and also on a few occasions a squirt bottle. I'm sure some people would think I'm a monster, but whatever.)
Fucking solid. :lulz:
Quote from: stelz on April 05, 2013, 11:08:20 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 05, 2013, 10:04:34 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 05, 2013, 05:18:32 AM
I did the WIC thing once, when I was prego with my son.
Peanut butter. Peanut butter. Peanut butter. So much peanut butter.
WIC is one of the few things America does that makes me proud.
All things considered, that's a very sad statement.
Yeah, WIC wears a white hat.
It's about not feeding your kids Cheetos for breakfast and getting them accustomed to actual FOOD.
This makes me expect it to go away soon. Can't have THAT in America(TM).
Assholes have been trying desperately to kill WIC since the day it was introduced. It's still there.
And while it's still there, you can assume that the USA isn't ALL dickhead and assmunch.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 06, 2013, 03:40:48 AM
Quote from: stelz on April 05, 2013, 11:08:20 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 05, 2013, 10:04:34 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 05, 2013, 05:18:32 AM
I did the WIC thing once, when I was prego with my son.
Peanut butter. Peanut butter. Peanut butter. So much peanut butter.
WIC is one of the few things America does that makes me proud.
All things considered, that's a very sad statement.
Yeah, WIC wears a white hat.
It's about not feeding your kids Cheetos for breakfast and getting them accustomed to actual FOOD.
This makes me expect it to go away soon. Can't have THAT in America(TM).
Assholes have been trying desperately to kill WIC since the day it was introduced. It's still there.
And while it's still there, you can assume that the USA isn't ALL dickhead and assmunch.
What's been keeping WIC dickhead and assmunch proof, though, and HOW THE FUCK DO WE DEPLOY THIS IN DEFENSE OF THE LAST FEW THINGS BETWEEN US AND ALEC?
Quote from: stelz on April 06, 2013, 03:45:16 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 06, 2013, 03:40:48 AM
Quote from: stelz on April 05, 2013, 11:08:20 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 05, 2013, 10:04:34 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 05, 2013, 05:18:32 AM
I did the WIC thing once, when I was prego with my son.
Peanut butter. Peanut butter. Peanut butter. So much peanut butter.
WIC is one of the few things America does that makes me proud.
All things considered, that's a very sad statement.
Yeah, WIC wears a white hat.
It's about not feeding your kids Cheetos for breakfast and getting them accustomed to actual FOOD.
This makes me expect it to go away soon. Can't have THAT in America(TM).
Assholes have been trying desperately to kill WIC since the day it was introduced. It's still there.
And while it's still there, you can assume that the USA isn't ALL dickhead and assmunch.
What's been keeping WIC dickhead and assmunch proof, though, and HOW THE FUCK DO WE DEPLOY THIS IN DEFENSE OF THE LAST FEW THINGS BETWEEN US AND ALEC?
What's been keeping it safe is that no matter how much advertising you do, most people don't want babies to be malnourished.
Also, ALEC hasn't really got a vested interest in getting rid of it, for reasons that should be fairly obvious.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 06, 2013, 03:47:06 AM
Quote from: stelz on April 06, 2013, 03:45:16 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 06, 2013, 03:40:48 AM
Quote from: stelz on April 05, 2013, 11:08:20 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 05, 2013, 10:04:34 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 05, 2013, 05:18:32 AM
I did the WIC thing once, when I was prego with my son.
Peanut butter. Peanut butter. Peanut butter. So much peanut butter.
WIC is one of the few things America does that makes me proud.
All things considered, that's a very sad statement.
Yeah, WIC wears a white hat.
It's about not feeding your kids Cheetos for breakfast and getting them accustomed to actual FOOD.
This makes me expect it to go away soon. Can't have THAT in America(TM).
Assholes have been trying desperately to kill WIC since the day it was introduced. It's still there.
And while it's still there, you can assume that the USA isn't ALL dickhead and assmunch.
What's been keeping WIC dickhead and assmunch proof, though, and HOW THE FUCK DO WE DEPLOY THIS IN DEFENSE OF THE LAST FEW THINGS BETWEEN US AND ALEC?
What's been keeping it safe is that no matter how much advertising you do, most people don't want babies to be malnourished.
Also, ALEC hasn't really got a vested interest in getting rid of it, for reasons that should be fairly obvious.
Yeah, a well-nourished slave class.
Until they're five, anyway.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 04, 2013, 11:20:52 PM
A few thoughts:
Often, "We don't have any food at my house" is kid code for "The food at my house isn't as tasty and exotic as the food at your house, so I'm gonna eat all your food so I can say I'm not hungry when I go home and my mom tries to give me meatloaf and peas".
That's so fucked. I came from a home where my mom didn't even
start cooking until 9 and then she'd serve my dad, serve herself and they'd eat in their beds, watching TV with the door closed. My sister and I were "welcome to make a plate" but had to wash EVERYONE's dishes afterwards. We often ate standing up in the kitchen (if at all) after 10PM because there was no place to sit at the table and were up until 11 or midnight, doing dishes while good ol' Mom and Dad were in their room, reading and lounging and drinking GALLONS of diet soda that we had to go fetch them. Growing up with an UN-nurturing mom was probably so much worse than no mom because my idea of what a child deserves and should expect was "ZERO. You deserve and should expect nothing. Not even meals or a clean place to eat or do your homework."
If I ever found myself at a friend's house after school, I was too embarrassed to mention "I probably won't eat until 10." I was too ashamed to ask for
anything and probably just felt lucky to be around people who hadn't kicked me out for being weird yet. My standard reply to everything was "No, thank you. I'm okay."
Kinda pisses me off that there are kids who abuse people's hospitality simply because they don't
like what mom makes. That hits me in the gut.
QuoteAlso, often kids who respect the boundaries in their own home know that different boundaries apply in different places, and act like it's a free-for-all as soon as they're in a new environment. That means that you have to set boundaries for them in YOUR home.
...
Lastly, the correct answer to "Well, kids will be kids" is, "If that's how you're raising him, he is no longer welcome at my house, I'm sorry."
:motorcycle: Vroom-vroooooom!
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 05, 2013, 10:05:21 PM
Quote from: insideout on April 05, 2013, 09:48:20 PM
Sounds like the main issue with your kids friends is lack of parental attention.
And it's also true that food at someone's elses house always looks tastier than the crap your mom serves you.
But that doesn't explain the greasy unwashed look you describe, and lack of parental attention does.
My best guess based on the info in this thread combined with personal experience as a parent is that it is a combination of those and other unnamed factors.
OR
The kid is just being a shit. I was a shit. It's part of being a kid in America...Or was. My kids aren't shits. I can't understand why.
That's yes! I can honestly say that the only thing that I've done right is when my kids *do* fuck up, I get it. Beyond that I can only assume that not being massive little shit-asses is their form of rebellion, cause Eris knows, they didn't learn that shit from their parents.
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on April 07, 2013, 06:03:51 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 05, 2013, 10:05:21 PM
Quote from: insideout on April 05, 2013, 09:48:20 PM
Sounds like the main issue with your kids friends is lack of parental attention.
And it's also true that food at someone's elses house always looks tastier than the crap your mom serves you.
But that doesn't explain the greasy unwashed look you describe, and lack of parental attention does.
My best guess based on the info in this thread combined with personal experience as a parent is that it is a combination of those and other unnamed factors.
OR
The kid is just being a shit. I was a shit. It's part of being a kid in America...Or was. My kids aren't shits. I can't understand why.
That's yes! I can honestly say that the only thing that I've done right is when my kids *do* fuck up, I get it. Beyond that I can only assume that not being massive little shit-asses is their form of rebellion, cause Eris knows, they didn't learn that shit from their parents.
Ahahahahahahahaaaa!
Yeah, I kind of love it when kids take a look at their parents and go, "Yeah, I'm not doing that" and proceed to be orderly, sensible, respectful human beings. AS A FORM OF REBELLION. :lol:
Quote from: navkat: navkat of...navkat! on April 07, 2013, 02:12:48 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on April 04, 2013, 11:20:52 PM
A few thoughts:
Often, "We don't have any food at my house" is kid code for "The food at my house isn't as tasty and exotic as the food at your house, so I'm gonna eat all your food so I can say I'm not hungry when I go home and my mom tries to give me meatloaf and peas".
That's so fucked. I came from a home where my mom didn't even start cooking until 9 and then she'd serve my dad, serve herself and they'd eat in their beds, watching TV with the door closed. My sister and I were "welcome to make a plate" but had to wash EVERYONE's dishes afterwards. We often ate standing up in the kitchen (if at all) after 10PM because there was no place to sit at the table and were up until 11 or midnight, doing dishes while good ol' Mom and Dad were in their room, reading and lounging and drinking GALLONS of diet soda that we had to go fetch them. Growing up with an UN-nurturing mom was probably so much worse than no mom because my idea of what a child deserves and should expect was "ZERO. You deserve and should expect nothing. Not even meals or a clean place to eat or do your homework."
If I ever found myself at a friend's house after school, I was too embarrassed to mention "I probably won't eat until 10." I was too ashamed to ask for anything and probably just felt lucky to be around people who hadn't kicked me out for being weird yet. My standard reply to everything was "No, thank you. I'm okay."
Kinda pisses me off that there are kids who abuse people's hospitality simply because they don't like what mom makes. That hits me in the gut.
Thing is, they're just being kids who, by virtue of having had their needs met, assume that they
deserve to have their needs met, or even to level up if that's an option. Yeah, it's entitlement, but it's a form of entitlement that's really just natural human opportunism. It's what Eve's story is all about. I can't bring myself to disapprove of it, because children SHOULD be opportunistic, and adults should set limits. Yes, a kid will eat ALL the ice cream unless you tell him not to. Why wouldn't he?
Update! Mrs. Vex just caught one of these squirmy little brats telling my child to ask for permission before they got into some stuff. What's wrong with these kids? It's like they don't even know the proper meaning of chaos.
Moral of story: some kids are better than others.