A year or so ago, it was pointed out to me that "cunt" is an offensive term, no matter how it is used. It is basically the same as calling women "bitches". Since I wouldn't want anyone referring to my wife or daughter that way, I guess I really can't go around using terms like that myself, can I?
Problem: Part of the motivation (not all, but part) of those who correct such terms is control. So when you agree to the idea that a given term or terms is/are offensive, then control has been partially established. The next step is for the range of unacceptable terms to be enlarged so that it is always just beyond what the agreeable person has, at any given moment, agreed to. If the person catches up or even bypasses the controlling person's restricted vocabulary, then control has been lost, as the controller is no longer dictating what is and is not acceptable.
I have heard two objections to the term "Irish-Americans". One by po'buckers, who think if you have any cultural identity other than that provided by Uncle Sugar, you are insufficiently American. The other objection has come from the other end, where you can't be Irish if you're American, unless you have a piece of paper that says you are. By that definition, Native Americans are only True Native Americans if they live on a reservation or have some kind of card on them.
Interestingly enough, this exact same line of thinking has allowed Oregon to maintain the outrageous "legally Black" argument for an absurd and obscene amount of time. There are, on a moral level, no difference between the two outlooks.
Fact #1: You don't get to decide who is what.
Fact #2: You shouldn't WANT to decide that sort of thing.
The only thing achieved by the politics of exclusion is exclusion. This suits some people, because they can't feel special unless they're "fighting for the rights of" <insert group here>, or - in other cases - unless they have a monopoly on the status of "persecuted". Both behaviors are indulgence.
I expect this sort of behavior from a good chunk of the population. I do not expect it from Discordians, at least as *I* understand Discordianism, because we're supposed to be teaching ourselves how to THINK, and how to inculcate that subversive activity into others. Stress that last part. "Everyone is a Discordian", after all, and the idea is to get as many people INSIDE the tent pissing OUT as possible, rather than sitting in a tent full of piss feeling all romantic about the whole thing.
And if a mere word drives you berserk, then you ought to examine your filters, because you are allowing other people to dictate your behavior.
Now, this isn't all leading up to some epiphany towards me suddenly deciding that terms like "cunt" are okay again. They aren't, and the reasons they aren't haven't changed. And it's not saying that people who get riled up over politically incorrect language are all zealots or bad people or anything. They aren't. But the deliberate push to zealotry is puzzling in people who ought to know better, and depressingly normal in the nation in which I live.
And I've had just about enough normal for a lifetime, thank you very much.
Or Kill Me.
Very well stated, you Cornish bastard.
And since control is a kind of power, would entitlement and privilege work their way in here?
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 16, 2013, 07:44:59 PM
A year or so ago, it was pointed out to me that "cunt" is an offensive term, no matter how it is used. It is basically the same as calling women "bitches". Since I wouldn't want anyone referring to my wife or daughter that way, I guess I really can't go around using terms like that myself, can I?
Problem: Part of the motivation (not all, but part) of those who correct such terms is control. So when you agree to the idea that a given term or terms is/are offensive, then control has been partially established. The next step is for the range of unacceptable terms to be enlarged so that it is always just beyond what the agreeable person has, at any given moment, agreed to. If the person catches up or even bypasses the controlling person's restricted vocabulary, then control has been lost, as the controller is no longer dictating what is and is not acceptable.
I have heard two objections to the term "Irish-Americans". One by po'buckers, who think if you have any cultural identity other than that provided by Uncle Sugar, you are insufficiently American. The other objection has come from the other end, where you can't be Irish if you're American, unless you have a piece of paper that says you are. By that definition, Native Americans are only True Native Americans if they live on a reservation or have some kind of card on them.
Interestingly enough, this exact same line of thinking has allowed Oregon to maintain the outrageous "legally Black" argument for an absurd and obscene amount of time. There are, on a moral level, no difference between the two outlooks.
Fact #1: You don't get to decide who is what.
Fact #2: You shouldn't WANT to decide that sort of thing.
The only thing achieved by the politics of exclusion is exclusion. This suits some people, because they can't feel special unless they're "fighting for the rights of" <insert group here>, or - in other cases - unless they have a monopoly on the status of "persecuted". Both behaviors are indulgence.
I expect this sort of behavior from a good chunk of the population. I do not expect it from Discordians, at least as *I* understand Discordianism, because we're supposed to be teaching ourselves how to THINK, and how to inculcate that subversive activity into others. Stress that last part. "Everyone is a Discordian", after all, and the idea is to get as many people INSIDE the tent pissing OUT as possible, rather than sitting in a tent full of piss feeling all romantic about the whole thing.
And if a mere word drives you berserk, then you ought to examine your filters, because you are allowing other people to dictate your behavior.
Now, this isn't all leading up to some epiphany towards me suddenly deciding that terms like "cunt" are okay again. They aren't, and the reasons they aren't haven't changed. And it's not saying that people who get riled up over politically incorrect language are all zealots or bad people or anything. They aren't. But the deliberate push to zealotry is puzzling in people who ought to know better, and depressingly normal in the nation in which I live.
And I've had just about enough normal for a lifetime, thank you very much.
Or Kill Me.
FTR: I'll continue to use the word "cunt" whenever I fucking well feel like it, on account of it's a part of my day to day vocabulary. If you can't deal with that and it makes you curl up into a little ball and try to chew your own ears off ... cool!
I see what you're saying. My having an Irish born parent does not make me less Irish than having been born in Ireland, nor more Irish than having great-grandparents emigrate from there.
QuoteThe only thing achieved by the politics of exclusion is exclusion. This suits some people, because they can't feel special unless they're "fighting for the rights of" <insert group here>, or - in other cases - unless they have a monopoly on the status of "persecuted". Both behaviors are indulgence.
Oh this.
I try to avoid labels as much as possible. It seems that there will always be a background argument about what everything on the map should be called rather than exploring.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 16, 2013, 07:49:59 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 16, 2013, 07:44:59 PM
A year or so ago, it was pointed out to me that "cunt" is an offensive term, no matter how it is used. It is basically the same as calling women "bitches". Since I wouldn't want anyone referring to my wife or daughter that way, I guess I really can't go around using terms like that myself, can I?
Problem: Part of the motivation (not all, but part) of those who correct such terms is control. So when you agree to the idea that a given term or terms is/are offensive, then control has been partially established. The next step is for the range of unacceptable terms to be enlarged so that it is always just beyond what the agreeable person has, at any given moment, agreed to. If the person catches up or even bypasses the controlling person's restricted vocabulary, then control has been lost, as the controller is no longer dictating what is and is not acceptable.
I have heard two objections to the term "Irish-Americans". One by po'buckers, who think if you have any cultural identity other than that provided by Uncle Sugar, you are insufficiently American. The other objection has come from the other end, where you can't be Irish if you're American, unless you have a piece of paper that says you are. By that definition, Native Americans are only True Native Americans if they live on a reservation or have some kind of card on them.
Interestingly enough, this exact same line of thinking has allowed Oregon to maintain the outrageous "legally Black" argument for an absurd and obscene amount of time. There are, on a moral level, no difference between the two outlooks.
Fact #1: You don't get to decide who is what.
Fact #2: You shouldn't WANT to decide that sort of thing.
The only thing achieved by the politics of exclusion is exclusion. This suits some people, because they can't feel special unless they're "fighting for the rights of" <insert group here>, or - in other cases - unless they have a monopoly on the status of "persecuted". Both behaviors are indulgence.
I expect this sort of behavior from a good chunk of the population. I do not expect it from Discordians, at least as *I* understand Discordianism, because we're supposed to be teaching ourselves how to THINK, and how to inculcate that subversive activity into others. Stress that last part. "Everyone is a Discordian", after all, and the idea is to get as many people INSIDE the tent pissing OUT as possible, rather than sitting in a tent full of piss feeling all romantic about the whole thing.
And if a mere word drives you berserk, then you ought to examine your filters, because you are allowing other people to dictate your behavior.
Now, this isn't all leading up to some epiphany towards me suddenly deciding that terms like "cunt" are okay again. They aren't, and the reasons they aren't haven't changed. And it's not saying that people who get riled up over politically incorrect language are all zealots or bad people or anything. They aren't. But the deliberate push to zealotry is puzzling in people who ought to know better, and depressingly normal in the nation in which I live.
And I've had just about enough normal for a lifetime, thank you very much.
Or Kill Me.
FTR: I'll continue to use the word "cunt" whenever I fucking well feel like it, on account of it's a part of my day to day vocabulary. If you can't deal with that and it makes you curl up into a little ball and try to chew your own ears off ... cool!
I don't care if you say "cunt" all day long. I won't say it. I cannot and would not (if I could) control what you say.
That was kind of my point. I have decided that the word is offensive to me. I won't use it.
You have to make your own decisions as to what is or is not offensive.
ETA: I COULD do it for you, but I'll be sending an invoice.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on April 16, 2013, 07:49:41 PM
Very well stated, you Cornish bastard.
And since control is a kind of power, would entitlement and privilege work their way in here?
Naw, not really.
Privilege is something that happens to you.
Entitlement is how you perceive your privilege.
Control is something you do.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 16, 2013, 08:06:21 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on April 16, 2013, 07:49:41 PM
Very well stated, you Cornish bastard.
And since control is a kind of power, would entitlement and privilege work their way in here?
Naw, not really.
Privilege is something that happens to you.
Entitlement is how you perceive your privilege.
Control is something you do.
Hm. The way I was looking at it, your genetic stock and place of birth
is something that happens to you, and controlling the terms around that creates a Special Class of people, which could treated as privilege.
So, perhaps ersatz entitlement.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 16, 2013, 08:05:28 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 16, 2013, 07:49:59 PM
FTR: I'll continue to use the word "cunt" whenever I fucking well feel like it, on account of it's a part of my day to day vocabulary. If you can't deal with that and it makes you curl up into a little ball and try to chew your own ears off ... cool!
I don't care if you say "cunt" all day long. I won't say it. I cannot and would not (if I could) control what you say.
That was kind of my point. I have decided that the word is offensive to me. I won't use it.
You have to make your own decisions as to what is or is not offensive.
ETA: I COULD do it for you, but I'll be sending an invoice.
Yup! And I respect you for it. Ask me nicely to stop and I won't even ask your reasons. Launch into some tirade about how I'm what's wrong the the world with a side order of suppressed female lecture and I'll just call you a cunt and walk away.
I try to call people what they would prefer to be called. I do get pissy about one piece of PC speech and that is African-American. Usually a hyphenated American implies an immigrant, rather than descent. I think that's why Pixie was objecting to the use of Irish-American. Pretending that for some reason calling someone African-American rather than Black is more respectful (without actually asking the person in question) seems to point at the need to periodically change the word being used because there is something wrong with the person it refers to. After all, we've gone through Negro, Colored, Black, and now African-American. None of those terms was intended as offensive to begin with, but you call a Black person a Negro or Colored nowadays and you are absolutely being offensive. The only other area that we see a need to keep changing the term is dealing with metal deficiency.
And I use the word cunt as slang for a vagina, I don't think I've ever used it to refer to a person. Is calling a guy a dick as bad? Cause I do that a lot.
Quote from: Pergamos on April 16, 2013, 08:17:05 PMIs calling a guy a dick as bad? Cause I do that a lot.
Negative - men aren't a suppressed minority.
Bloody great writing, Roger.
QuoteAnd if a mere word drives you berserk, then you ought to examine your filters, because you are allowing other people to dictate your behavior.
This need to be hammered into great big slabs of concrete in major cities.
Quote from: Pergamos on April 16, 2013, 08:17:05 PM
I try to call people what they would prefer to be called. I do get pissy about one piece of PC speech and that is African-American. Usually a hyphenated American implies an immigrant, rather than descent. I think that's why Pixie was objecting to the use of Irish-American. Pretending that for some reason calling someone African-American rather than Black is more respectful (without actually asking the person in question) seems to point at the need to periodically change the word being used because there is something wrong with the person it refers to. After all, we've gone through Negro, Colored, Black, and now African-American. None of those terms was intended as offensive to begin with, but you call a Black person a Negro or Colored nowadays and you are absolutely being offensive. The only other area that we see a need to keep changing the term is dealing with metal deficiency.
And I use the word cunt as slang for a vagina, I don't think I've ever used it to refer to a person. Is calling a guy a dick as bad? Cause I do that a lot.
I always saw it as a indicator of ethnicity combined with country of origin. In that way I can be considered an Irish-American, but I prefer to think of them as two different things. I am Irish, and I am American. But I wouldn't be offended if one called me an Irish-American. I just feel that it's slapping two equally applicable labels to me at once, but why? When I play guitar, I don't think of myself as either. When I'm in line for my flight, I don't think of myself as a guitarist. It's a largely situational thing. Unless I am doing something that is unique to being both Irish and American, it would be one, or the other, or neither.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 16, 2013, 08:21:27 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on April 16, 2013, 08:17:05 PMIs calling a guy a dick as bad? Cause I do that a lot.
Negative - men aren't a suppressed minority.
it's just a synecdochic dysphemistic euphemism. no big deal.
(i just wanted to use those words.)
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 16, 2013, 08:21:27 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on April 16, 2013, 08:17:05 PMIs calling a guy a dick as bad? Cause I do that a lot.
Negative - men aren't a suppressed minority.
Why would that even matter? Of course it's just as bad.
"Asshole" is nice and neutral, don't you think?
If anyone else feels the need to use my post as an excuse to get a cheap shot in, would you please just go ahead and do it now? If the thread is going to be killed, we may as well not drag it out.
Quote from: Pergamos on April 16, 2013, 08:17:05 PM
I try to call people what they would prefer to be called. I do get pissy about one piece of PC speech and that is African-American.
You are perfectly free to get pissy about it.
But your pissiness ends with you. You don't get to dictate whether or not other people use the term.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 16, 2013, 08:15:52 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 16, 2013, 08:05:28 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 16, 2013, 07:49:59 PM
FTR: I'll continue to use the word "cunt" whenever I fucking well feel like it, on account of it's a part of my day to day vocabulary. If you can't deal with that and it makes you curl up into a little ball and try to chew your own ears off ... cool!
I don't care if you say "cunt" all day long. I won't say it. I cannot and would not (if I could) control what you say.
That was kind of my point. I have decided that the word is offensive to me. I won't use it.
You have to make your own decisions as to what is or is not offensive.
ETA: I COULD do it for you, but I'll be sending an invoice.
Yup! And I respect you for it. Ask me nicely to stop and I won't even ask your reasons. Launch into some tirade about how I'm what's wrong the the world with a side order of suppressed female lecture and I'll just call you a cunt and walk away.
And that's the whole point. I cannot and do not wish to control your speech. If it bothers me, I may ask you to stop. If you don't, I will stop listening, which is an entirely different thing than trying to shut you up.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 16, 2013, 08:31:25 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on April 16, 2013, 08:21:27 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on April 16, 2013, 08:17:05 PMIs calling a guy a dick as bad? Cause I do that a lot.
Negative - men aren't a suppressed minority.
Why would that even matter? Of course it's just as bad.
"Asshole" is nice and neutral, don't you think?
Indeed, and an asshole is full of shit.
Quote from: Waffles, Viking Princess of Northern Belgium on April 16, 2013, 08:23:26 PM
Bloody great writing, Roger.
QuoteAnd if a mere word drives you berserk, then you ought to examine your filters, because you are allowing other people to dictate your behavior.
This need to be hammered into great big slabs of concrete in major cities.
Someone would just tag it. :lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 16, 2013, 08:36:01 PM
Quote from: Waffles, Viking Princess of Northern Belgium on April 16, 2013, 08:23:26 PM
Bloody great writing, Roger.
QuoteAnd if a mere word drives you berserk, then you ought to examine your filters, because you are allowing other people to dictate your behavior.
This need to be hammered into great big slabs of concrete in major cities.
Someone would just tag it. :lulz:
I'll probably do that at some point.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on April 16, 2013, 08:34:03 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on April 16, 2013, 08:17:05 PM
I try to call people what they would prefer to be called. I do get pissy about one piece of PC speech and that is African-American.
You are perfectly free to get pissy about it.
But your pissiness ends with you. You don't get to dictate whether or not other people use the term.
Right. If I were black myself I might feel some entitlement to have a say in what I was being called, but I'm not, so it's purely my own choice of words. it's just when another White person looks at me and goes "They prefer being called African-American" that I'll go off on my little rant about that being exclusionary and suggesting that they are less American than me and the person who made the comment and the whole bit about continually changing the term and whatnot.
Quote from: Pergamos on April 16, 2013, 08:48:13 PM
it's just when another White person looks at me and goes "They prefer being called African-American"
Oh, yeah, that's priceless. :lulz:
At that point, you are morally free to squat over their heads and tell them your thoughts on the matter in "terms" they'll understand.
ETA: Because in that context, "They" sounds just like "Those People".
this reminds me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbZhpf3sQxQ
Quote from: insideout on April 16, 2013, 09:14:18 PM
this reminds me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbZhpf3sQxQ
Yeah. Everything I say is actually just a reflection of something George Carlin or someone else said. You can save time just by watching or listening to him, because the ideas are the same.
Or words to that effect, which have probably been said by someone famous at one point or another.
Note that the above was tongue in cheek.
Specifically, someone else's tongue in a cheek once described to me as resembling another cheek entirely.
That sounds unwieldy, overly complex, and quite erotic.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on April 16, 2013, 09:27:04 PM
That sounds unwieldy, overly complex, and quite erotic.
I know *I* was oddly aroused.
:lulz:
TGRR,
Turbine-powered asshole today. Unlike other days. Maybe.
No surprise. Your arousal is always odd.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on April 16, 2013, 09:33:55 PM
No surprise. Your arousal is always odd.
Balls. EVERYONE likes sex in a moving pickup truck. Even if there's someone else in the truck with you.
No one will ever get in a truck with me. :oops:
but the sex is still awesome so, yeah, I get your point :fap: