http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/30/19771789-bradley-manning-verdict-could-test-notion-of-aiding-enemy
This sounds like it would be used to close the door on any future inhouse whistleblowing from within the military. Be interesting to see how the judge rules. Though with the shenanigans already going on, secret evidence, MPs standing behind journalists with guns watching their computers, I'm not optimistic.
Whatever the verdict is I am getting drunk off my ass tonight.
Quote from: McGrupp on July 30, 2013, 05:38:35 PM
This sounds like it would be used to close the door on any future inhouse whistleblowing from within the military. Be interesting to see how the judge rules. Though with the shenanigans already going on, secret evidence, MPs standing behind journalists with guns watching their computers, I'm not optimistic.
Not just that. It also means that we can redefine treason to mean "inconvenient to the administration".
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 05:39:26 PM
Quote from: McGrupp on July 30, 2013, 05:38:35 PM
This sounds like it would be used to close the door on any future inhouse whistleblowing from within the military. Be interesting to see how the judge rules. Though with the shenanigans already going on, secret evidence, MPs standing behind journalists with guns watching their computers, I'm not optimistic.
Not just that. It also means that we can redefine treason to mean "inconvenient to the administration".
That would be a pretty big umbrella. Scary one too.
On the one hand I think that maybe a guilty verdict will be another step towards 'they've finally gone too far'
But on another hand, I've seen far too many 'ahah! they've gone and done it!' moments to know that this one too won't have that effect either. Well, other than make me feel like less of a paranoid crackpot. I miss being a paranoid crackpot.
Quote from: McGrupp on July 30, 2013, 06:00:48 PM
On the one hand I think that maybe a guilty verdict will be another step towards 'they've finally gone too far'
:lulz:
There is no "too far".
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 06:02:45 PM
Quote from: McGrupp on July 30, 2013, 06:00:48 PM
On the one hand I think that maybe a guilty verdict will be another step towards 'they've finally gone too far'
:lulz:
There is no "too far".
:lulz: There is a tiny pocket of incredibly naive idealism that rests somewhere near my pancreas. Sometimes it tells me things like this.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 05:39:26 PM
Quote from: McGrupp on July 30, 2013, 05:38:35 PM
This sounds like it would be used to close the door on any future inhouse whistleblowing from within the military. Be interesting to see how the judge rules. Though with the shenanigans already going on, secret evidence, MPs standing behind journalists with guns watching their computers, I'm not optimistic.
Not just that. It also means that we can redefine treason to mean "inconvenient to the administration".
Treason - The new popular crime. How can you prevent it in your neighbourhood! How to spot a traitor! All this and more at 11!
Seriously, regardless of the outcome here I'd guess you'll see a lot more people charged with treason over the next few decades. It's a great "snarl" word. Anyone defending it is already of suspect character.
How far do you think we really are from televised executions of traitors? I'm pretty sure we're a lot closer than we'd like to think we are.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/30/19776548-manning-acquitted-of-aiding-enemy-but-convicted-on-other-charges?lite
You may now return to your F5.
It's almost a shame that the judge went this way.
Why?
This way he gets a life sentence...
If they sentenced him to death? I think people would be more outraged.
Not that a life sentence isn't an outrage. :argh!:
Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on July 30, 2013, 07:01:51 PM
This way he gets a life sentence...
If they sentenced him to death? I think people would be more outraged.
Let's just think that through, shall we?
Because I think a guilty count on that charge would actually get a reaction from the populace.
He's pled guilty to a lot of it, his only real hope is massive public support/protests about the injustice of a guilty count on that front.
Also, if he had been given the death sentence for that, it might actually get a real change on that front too. There seems to potentially be a lot of groups that would work with each other if this went really fucking wrong. As it is, it can just go away quietly.
It also shortcuts a lot of bullshit. That treason issue isn't going away. I'm sure that will be back in Patriot Act #2 - Electric Boogaloo. It's such a powerful tool for a government that now they've tasted the possibilities they WILL get it.
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 30, 2013, 07:05:42 PM
Also, if he had been given the death sentence for that, it might actually get a real change on that front too. There seems to potentially be a lot of groups that would work with each other if this went really fucking wrong.
You don't understand US military justice. They wouldn't care, they'd just kill the kid.
I dunno. I'm not sure there was any scenario where he was getting off free. A larger public reaction wasn't going to free him now that this was national news. They've dug in their heels on this.
Yeah, the US Military is a different sort of mentality entirely. What can you do to pressure them? It's not like they're running for office or have to ask you for a donation. They're getting paid one way or the other.
Quote from: FRIDAY TIME on July 30, 2013, 07:13:00 PM
Yeah, the US Military is a different sort of mentality entirely. What can you do to pressure them? It's not like they're running for office or have to ask you for a donation. They're getting paid one way or the other.
Also, Obama can't be reelected, and everyone will have forgotten the kid by the end of his administration.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 07:07:14 PM
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 30, 2013, 07:05:42 PM
Also, if he had been given the death sentence for that, it might actually get a real change on that front too. There seems to potentially be a lot of groups that would work with each other if this went really fucking wrong.
You don't understand US military justice. They wouldn't care, they'd just kill the kid.
Probably quite correct. It would need to be a massive campaign to even stand a chance of something happening. I doubt the required scale is going to (Or even could) happen. I'm pretty sure there are instances of military justice ruling being overturned by popular opinion, though very few and far between. Thinking about it, I don't think any were US either. Tended to be places where justice is a little more flexible. By flexible, I mean corrupt.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 07:13:59 PM
Quote from: FRIDAY TIME on July 30, 2013, 07:13:00 PM
Yeah, the US Military is a different sort of mentality entirely. What can you do to pressure them? It's not like they're running for office or have to ask you for a donation. They're getting paid one way or the other.
Also, Obama can't be reelected, and everyone will have forgotten the kid by the end of his administration.
I think that's the goal and part of the reason for the ruling. Too punitive and people
remember.
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 30, 2013, 07:14:27 PM
I'm pretty sure there are instances of military justice ruling being overturned by popular opinion, though very few and far between. Thinking about it, I don't think any were US either.
They let Michael Calley go. :lulz:
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 30, 2013, 07:16:07 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 07:13:59 PM
Quote from: FRIDAY TIME on July 30, 2013, 07:13:00 PM
Yeah, the US Military is a different sort of mentality entirely. What can you do to pressure them? It's not like they're running for office or have to ask you for a donation. They're getting paid one way or the other.
Also, Obama can't be reelected, and everyone will have forgotten the kid by the end of his administration.
I think that's the goal and part of the reason for the ruling. Too punitive and people remember.
Yeah, ask Leonard Peltier about that.
2 Google searches and a quick skim and I see it's time to SHUT UP and read more. Again.
Thanks Gents, much appreciated.
Not sure if like.
Interesting. Everyone wanted the kid to get the death penalty, so people would be 'outraged'.
NEWS FLASH: 53% of the country would throw the switch themselves.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 07:30:43 PM
Interesting. Everyone wanted the kid to get the death penalty, so people would be 'outraged'.
NEWS FLASH: 53% of the country would throw the switch themselves.
It is a disturbing thought, that right there.
Sure, martyrdom is effective, but is it preferable? I think not.
It's easy to expect someone else to play the martyr if you don't have to.
Twid,
Never saw any news reports of bin Ladin with a suicide bomb vest
Quote from: FRIDAY TIME on July 30, 2013, 07:34:30 PM
It's easy to expect someone else to play the martyr if you don't have to.
Twid,
Never saw any news reports of bin Ladin with a suicide bomb vest
:potd:
Thanks, Dok. It is an important bit to remember though. It's good that he's not getting executed.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 07:30:43 PM
Interesting. Everyone wanted the kid to get the death penalty, so people would be 'outraged'.
NEWS FLASH: 53% of the country would throw the switch themselves.
The worst thing is, I KNEW this and still considered it as some kind of possible "positive" outcome.
I guess it's just reaching for a way for shit to somehow get better for the kid rather than being utterly and totally fucked.
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 30, 2013, 07:44:14 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 07:30:43 PM
Interesting. Everyone wanted the kid to get the death penalty, so people would be 'outraged'.
NEWS FLASH: 53% of the country would throw the switch themselves.
The worst thing is, I KNEW this and still considered it as some kind of possible "positive" outcome.
I guess it's just reaching for a way for shit to somehow get better for the kid rather than being utterly and totally fucked.
Well, if he's alive, he can be pardoned or commuted later.
Also, the administration cannot now just invent new meanings for "aiding the enemy".
This was the best possible outcome, in this particular world.
The espionage charge is bad enough on it's own. 100 years in prison, possibly.
Furthermore, it's bullshit. Unfortunately, the espionage act has a long history of being used against whistleblowers providing information to the press.
Quote from: Cain on July 30, 2013, 07:52:47 PM
The espionage charge is bad enough on it's own. 100 years in prison, possibly.
Furthermore, it's bullshit. Unfortunately, the espionage act has a long history of being used against whistleblowers providing information to the press.
Well, here's the thing: He'll still be alive. There's at least the hope that they will pull a Calley on him and spring him later via clemency.
Yeah, though I would advise Manning not to hold his breath in regards to that. Since a "Democratic" President did it, there will be little mandate to rectify it among the party, and the Republicans, as we know, are even more batshit insane when it comes to things like this. Maybe if Obama ends up going too far and discrediting himself...though given the shit the Democrats have gleefully swallowed up until now, I suspect that there is actually nothing he could do which would cause his policies to be disavowed.
Paranoid lunatic angle - Could this decision have something to do with the alleged actions against Assange? Something like if they went guilty on that count they need to ID "The enemy" which could/may result in Assange's or similar names coming into proceedings?
Just thinking that now that this is effectively dealt with, the resources and pressure can be shifted.
That was certainly part of it. Though part of it is also vindictiveness at not being able to get at Assange. Manning therefore becomes his proxy, and they act out on him what they'd like to do with Assange.
I'm glad he isn't going to be executed. But my oh my are people at my unit flipping their shit. :lulz:
Quote from: Don Coyote on July 30, 2013, 08:10:15 PM
I'm glad he isn't going to be executed. But my oh my are people at my unit flipping their shit. :lulz:
Yeah? Glad the little traitor got his comeuppance, or pissed that the army scapegoated the kid?
Quote from: Cain on July 30, 2013, 08:07:04 PM
That was certainly part of it. Though part of it is also vindictiveness at not being able to get at Assange. Manning therefore becomes his proxy, and they act out on him what they'd like to do with Assange.
He says some shit about Assange, my money is they reduce his sentence.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 08:15:54 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 30, 2013, 08:07:04 PM
That was certainly part of it. Though part of it is also vindictiveness at not being able to get at Assange. Manning therefore becomes his proxy, and they act out on him what they'd like to do with Assange.
He says some shit about Assange, my money is they reduce his sentence.
That would be interesting, and not surprising.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 08:15:30 PM
Quote from: Don Coyote on July 30, 2013, 08:10:15 PM
I'm glad he isn't going to be executed. But my oh my are people at my unit flipping their shit. :lulz:
Yeah? Glad the little traitor got his comeuppance, or pissed that the army scapegoated the kid?
pissed he isn't getting executed.
Quote from: Don Coyote on July 30, 2013, 08:22:29 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 08:15:30 PM
Quote from: Don Coyote on July 30, 2013, 08:10:15 PM
I'm glad he isn't going to be executed. But my oh my are people at my unit flipping their shit. :lulz:
Yeah? Glad the little traitor got his comeuppance, or pissed that the army scapegoated the kid?
pissed he isn't getting executed.
:lulz: at your mates.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 08:22:50 PM
Quote from: Don Coyote on July 30, 2013, 08:22:29 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 08:15:30 PM
Quote from: Don Coyote on July 30, 2013, 08:10:15 PM
I'm glad he isn't going to be executed. But my oh my are people at my unit flipping their shit. :lulz:
Yeah? Glad the little traitor got his comeuppance, or pissed that the army scapegoated the kid?
pissed he isn't getting executed.
:lulz: at your mates.
there are people in my unit I wouldn't piss on of they were on fire while telling them to stop choosing to be on fire and expecting government handouts.
Quote from: Don Coyote on July 30, 2013, 08:25:25 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 08:22:50 PM
Quote from: Don Coyote on July 30, 2013, 08:22:29 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 08:15:30 PM
Quote from: Don Coyote on July 30, 2013, 08:10:15 PM
I'm glad he isn't going to be executed. But my oh my are people at my unit flipping their shit. :lulz:
Yeah? Glad the little traitor got his comeuppance, or pissed that the army scapegoated the kid?
pissed he isn't getting executed.
:lulz: at your mates.
there are people in my unit I wouldn't piss on of they were on fire while telling them to stop choosing to be on fire and expecting government handouts.
Every unit has them.
Quote from: Don Coyote on July 30, 2013, 08:25:25 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 08:22:50 PM
Quote from: Don Coyote on July 30, 2013, 08:22:29 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 08:15:30 PM
Quote from: Don Coyote on July 30, 2013, 08:10:15 PM
I'm glad he isn't going to be executed. But my oh my are people at my unit flipping their shit. :lulz:
Yeah? Glad the little traitor got his comeuppance, or pissed that the army scapegoated the kid?
pissed he isn't getting executed.
:lulz: at your mates.
there are people in my unit I wouldn't piss on of they were on fire while telling them to stop choosing to be on fire and expecting government handouts.
That's an image.
Subject matter aside, this article makes me sad.
QuotePfc. Bradley Manning, the former Army intelligence officer who was branded both a whistle-blower and a traitor after he sent 700,000 secret government documents to WikiLeaks, was acquitted Tuesday of aiding the enemy but convicted of most other charges.
Private First Class is not an officer rank.
QuoteWikiLeaks founder Julian Assange said from the Ecuadorean Embassy in London, where he has been hold up for more than a year to avoid extradition to Sweden, that Manning was a hero and that the case set a dangerous precedent.
"Holed", not "hold". Who the fuck writes this stuff?
QuoteRep. Mike Rogers, R-Mich., and Rep. Dutch Ruppersberger, D-Md., the chairman and ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee, said that justice was served by Tuesday's verdict.
"PFC Manning harmed our national security, violated the public's trust, and now stands convicted of multiple serious crimes," they said in a joint statement. "There is still much work to be done to reduce the ability of criminals like Bradley Manning and Edward Snowden to harm our national security."
When "national security" means "doing whatever the fuck the government feels like doing, for any reason or no reason at all."
Of course, this is the same House Intelligence Committee who thinks the NSA is super-awesome, when they can actually agree on what specific lie they are peddling about it that day. I would expect no less.
And, well, dictionaries are Old Media.
Quote from: Cain on July 30, 2013, 09:37:12 PM
Of course, this is the same House Intelligence Committee who thinks the NSA is super-awesome, when they can actually agree on what specific lie they are peddling about it that day. I would expect no less.
And, well, dictionaries are Old Media.
I expect illiteracy from the general public, ranging from "Texas" to "Semi-Literate", bottom to top. I don't know why I expect anything more from staff writers.
And as for these yahoos, well, Harry S Truman is dead and gone.
Well, journalism school is expensive. Way too expensive for journalists.
Quote from: Cain on July 30, 2013, 09:41:05 PM
Well, journalism school is expensive. Way too expensive for journalists.
What's funny is that Journalism degrees are mostly good for permanently unpaid interns.
It is a good question though- who does write these things?
I've actually pondered that for years. To be honest if I pointed out every fuckup in any news story I post (Even BBC links) there's at least one typo per article usually.
There seems to be some kind of correlation between the availability of spell-checkers and the total lack of using them. Or the vast majority of articles are written by non-native speakers. That would make sense, we've outsourced most other things, why not reporting?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 09:39:04 PM
I expect illiteracy from the general public, ranging from "Texas" to "Semi-Literate",
:crankey:
AR YEW IMPLINING I CAIN'T SPEL RAIGHT?
@ CPD...military culture...
I'm sure the military would have been happy to kill him for revealing possibly illegal activities, and certainly unethical activities, of our current government...
*Mutters something about defending the constitution against enemies foreign and domestic*
Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on July 31, 2013, 01:41:52 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 09:39:04 PM
I expect illiteracy from the general public, ranging from "Texas" to "Semi-Literate",
:crankey:
AR YEW IMPLINING I CAIN'T SPEL RAIGHT?
@ CPD...military culture...
I'm sure the military would have been happy to kill him for revealing possibly illegal activities, and certainly unethical activities, of our current government...
*Mutters something about defending the constitution against enemies foreign and domestic*
Thing is, the military doesn't
care. It's a big stupid beast, with a rulebook for a brain. There is no "happy" to do ANYTHING. Just things get done. Because.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 31, 2013, 01:43:38 AM
Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on July 31, 2013, 01:41:52 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 09:39:04 PM
I expect illiteracy from the general public, ranging from "Texas" to "Semi-Literate",
:crankey:
AR YEW IMPLINING I CAIN'T SPEL RAIGHT?
@ CPD...military culture...
I'm sure the military would have been happy to kill him for revealing possibly illegal activities, and certainly unethical activities, of our current government...
*Mutters something about defending the constitution against enemies foreign and domestic*
Thing is, the military doesn't care. It's a big stupid beast, with a rulebook for a brain. There is no "happy" to do ANYTHING. Just things get done. Because.
Yep. The military is a bureaucracy. it does what Policy and Rules tell it to do.
Militaries (and prisons for that matter) are what sociologists call total institutions. They are designed to basically strip you of your previous identity(both also give you a serial number) and build a new you from the ground up. And that new you is supposed to be you for the rest of your life. They both literally give you a uniform and you are supposed to be that uniform. Matter of fact i have no doubt that is why dok specifically chose uniforms for his metaphor for a group identity that takes your individuality over. You can use the word label or ism or what have you. But honestly i cant think of a better metaphor. And i never would have thought of it myself.
I also just realized that the united states has given me- as either a citizen or otherwise legal resident- my own serial number.
Twid
Has a social security number
Quote from: FRIDAY TIME on July 31, 2013, 06:09:43 AM
I also just realized that the united states has given me- as either a citizen or otherwise legal resident- my own serial number.
Twid
Has a social security number
:? Did you just get one?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 05:28:24 PM
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07/30/19771789-bradley-manning-verdict-could-test-notion-of-aiding-enemy
A far better outcome than I expected, honestly.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on July 31, 2013, 07:43:15 AM
Quote from: FRIDAY TIME on July 31, 2013, 06:09:43 AM
I also just realized that the united states has given me- as either a citizen or otherwise legal resident- my own serial number.
Twid
Has a social security number
:? Did you just get one?
No, it's just that I remembered that I have one and that also counts as a form of serial number.
Quote from: Don Coyote on July 31, 2013, 03:05:29 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 31, 2013, 01:43:38 AM
Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on July 31, 2013, 01:41:52 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on July 30, 2013, 09:39:04 PM
I expect illiteracy from the general public, ranging from "Texas" to "Semi-Literate",
:crankey:
AR YEW IMPLINING I CAIN'T SPEL RAIGHT?
@ CPD...military culture...
I'm sure the military would have been happy to kill him for revealing possibly illegal activities, and certainly unethical activities, of our current government...
*Mutters something about defending the constitution against enemies foreign and domestic*
Thing is, the military doesn't care. It's a big stupid beast, with a rulebook for a brain. There is no "happy" to do ANYTHING. Just things get done. Because.
Yep. The military is a bureaucracy. it does what Policy and Rules tell it to do.
Agreed... :x
Quote from: FRIDAY TIME on July 31, 2013, 02:31:05 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on July 31, 2013, 07:43:15 AM
Quote from: FRIDAY TIME on July 31, 2013, 06:09:43 AM
I also just realized that the united states has given me- as either a citizen or otherwise legal resident- my own serial number.
Twid
Has a social security number
:? Did you just get one?
No, it's just that I remembered that I have one and that also counts as a form of serial number.
Yeah, that was for a while a source of great paranoia and agitation about social security numbers, especially when they started linking them to your everything. Which has only occurred within my lifetime.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on July 31, 2013, 04:14:47 PM
Quote from: FRIDAY TIME on July 31, 2013, 02:31:05 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on July 31, 2013, 07:43:15 AM
Quote from: FRIDAY TIME on July 31, 2013, 06:09:43 AM
I also just realized that the united states has given me- as either a citizen or otherwise legal resident- my own serial number.
Twid
Has a social security number
:? Did you just get one?
No, it's just that I remembered that I have one and that also counts as a form of serial number.
Yeah, that was for a while a source of great paranoia and agitation about social security numbers, especially when they started linking them to your everything. Which has only occurred within my lifetime.
It's something I only really think about when I'm doing my taxes or something of that sort, and even then only for a moment.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/31/us/bradley-manning-verdict.html
QuoteThe government's theory was that providing defense-related information to an entity that published it for the world to see constituted aiding the enemy because the world includes adversaries, like members of Al Qaeda, who could read the documents online.
Alternatively, this could be interpreted that the government is conceding the world and/or truth is the enemy.
Also http://www.salon.com/2013/07/30/manning_verdict_what_you_need_to_know/
QuoteThere is one more significant detail in Lind's ruling today. In addition to aiding the enemy, the one other charge she found Manning innocent of involved leaking a video of a civilian massacre in Garani, Afghanstan. While Manning admitted accessing the video, the government insisted he had leaked it months before Manning admitted to accessing the video (and before forensic evidence showed he had). This claim — one Lind said they did not prove — was key to their claims that Manning had planned to leak to WikiLeaks from the start of his deployment to Iraq.