Apropos of nothing; studies indicate that, although the belief has long been that people lose influence as they get older, because people become gradually less likely to give weight to what they have to say, there is evidence that what may be happening is that as people age, their sense of confidence and self-esteem often erodes due to their reduced perception of sexual attractiveness and vitality, causing them to present themselves to others with less authority and confidence, in turn creating a self-reinforcing feedback loop wherein others respond to them according to their reduced confidence, and so on. Evidently, people who don't think people take them less seriously as they age are right, and people who do think people take them less seriously... are also right.
I think people take me more seriously as I age. And they ought to, I have more experience now.
Quote from: Pergamos on August 01, 2013, 07:00:34 AM
I think people take me more seriously as I age. And they ought to, I have more experience now.
Well, of course it's usually true that people take adults more seriously as they move from adolescence into middle age. I am specifically referring to "older adults", who often feel that they are taken less seriously and have less influence as they move from middle age into advanced age, and their sexual viability wanes. It's easy to see why, in a society that so strongly values sexual desirability, an individual's general confidence might decline as their reproductive desirability declines.
I certainly think I am less sexually desirable than I was in my 20's. My hair is thinning and has grey in it, my metabolism has slowed down and changed lean muscle to pudge, and the other problems that come with middle age. But just because the women may not be as likely to want to get in bed with me doesn't change the fact that people are more likely to respect my opinion now.
Back in the day when I stared at a hawt chick all leerily, a lot of them would stare back the same way and we'd end up fucking.
Nowadays they turn chalk white, freak out and run, and I'm all like, "yeah, you still think the hotpants and see through top were such a good idea now?"
The trick to staying confident, for me, is enjoying this newfound effect and not missing the old one so much. Looking forward to the colostomy bag - I'm gonna have so much fun with one of those :evil:
This makes a lot of sense to me, and it reminds me a pope bob exercise... I am certain that i have more influence and beauty than i had when i was younger and i try to maintain the belief that these things improve as time goes by(watch out when I'm finally 80!!! :evil: ). i firmly believe that beauty, as is influence, is more dependent on the persons self image than on anything else.
Quote from: Pergamos on August 01, 2013, 08:58:00 AM
I certainly think I am less sexually desirable than I was in my 20's. My hair is thinning and has grey in it, my metabolism has slowed down and changed lean muscle to pudge, and the other problems that come with middle age. But just because the women may not be as likely to want to get in bed with me doesn't change the fact that people are more likely to respect my opinion now.
The key is to, as you progress from middle-age to elderly, retain that mindset. Evidently a lot of people who are moving into senior territory start to feel like they are taken less seriously than they were in middle age, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy because they start to present themselves and their opinions more tentatively, with less confidence. However, for those who continue to believe that they are heard and that their input is valued, that effect doesn't occur.
Also, our culture has a pretty strong recurring narrative of "we don't value our elderly" that feeds into this waning confidence. I think it's important to combat that by retaining a strong and confident voice as we age.
I would be interested to see how the changes in society affect this.
Do elderly people feel less confident solely because of their age, or is it also impacted by the shifts in social norms, beliefs, technology etc. Is it just sexual attractiveness, or are they also less sure of themselves because the world around them has changed?
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 01, 2013, 04:31:43 PM
I would be interested to see how the changes in society affect this.
Do elderly people feel less confident solely because of their age, or is it also impacted by the shifts in social norms, beliefs, technology etc. Is it just sexual attractiveness, or are they also less sure of themselves because the world around them has changed?
My guess: "Yes."
I think this will shift as the elderly population continues to grow with aging boomers.
Strength in numbers.
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 01, 2013, 04:31:43 PM
I would be interested to see how the changes in society affect this.
Do elderly people feel less confident solely because of their age, or is it also impacted by the shifts in social norms, beliefs, technology etc. Is it just sexual attractiveness, or are they also less sure of themselves because the world around them has changed?
I need to find some links and post them... I'll work on that tomorrow morning, perhaps.
Perhaps that role models kick in again, as when we were younger?
I have no doubt I'll be an influential old man, because my imprint of how an old man should be is my dad, who was King Shit of Fuck Mountain, as far as I'm concerned.
I just figured once I have a masters degree people will actually take me seriously, because when I told myself that people would take me seriously when I got into my 30s, they didn't. :lol:
Joking aside, I have this thing where most adults (say, 40s-50s) actually think I'm older, that I'm one of their peers, whereas many young adults in their 20s assume I'm their age or just a tad older. It's always been this way. I figure I'm aging very well (I never wear make up unless I'm in costume or it's a special occasion. I've been told by several people I don't need it and look much better without it.) but I've always been one of those kids that hung out with the grown-ups. Mom often joked that I was born 45 years old and sprang fully grown from my father's head brandishing sarcasm and a PhD.
Honestly, I just try to be myself. I have moments of extreme self-doubt, such as when I borked a final project last semester. It nearly KILLED me, but at the same time, I feel like I have a great support network to help me out of those tough spots. I figured failure would be easier to accept as you get older, but it's not.
I think that a lot of it comes from a position of power, which peaks right before retirement when one has the most experience in a given field and has underlings, then one retires and a lot of that confidence that revolved around those factors suddenly have no sustain.
Another reason not to build your entire self around your job.
Quote from: The Johnny on August 01, 2013, 07:49:21 PM
Another reason not to build your entire self around your job.
:mittens:
Quote from: The Johnny on August 01, 2013, 07:49:21 PM
I think that a lot of it comes from a position of power, which peaks right before retirement when one has the most experience in a given field and has underlings, then one retires and a lot of that confidence that revolved around those factors suddenly have no sustain.
Another reason not to build your entire self around your job.
I like this.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 01, 2013, 03:35:08 AM
Apropos of nothing; studies indicate that, although the belief has long been that people lose influence as they get older, because people become gradually less likely to give weight to what they have to say, there is evidence that what may be happening is that as people age, their sense of confidence and self-esteem often erodes due to their reduced perception of sexual attractiveness and vitality, causing them to present themselves to others with less authority and confidence, in turn creating a self-reinforcing feedback loop wherein others respond to them according to their reduced confidence, and so on. Evidently, people who don't think people take them less seriously as they age are right, and people who do think people take them less seriously... are also right.
I buy into this. As I grow older, I become more horrible. My influence increases.
I have also noticed this trait among the more senior management. Of course, they also have advanced degrees and an expectation of power.
Maybe some of the problem for old people is misinterpreted body language? A lot of them have a hesitant way of moving because they don't see well, don't want to fall on their ass lest they break something, etc. and it probably gets mistaken for timidity.
So yeah. Doubling up on the horrible as time goes on seems like sound policy.
The only "elders" I have special consideration for in the influence exerted over me, are those in my family, or those from related professions which have shown to have great knowledge and ethics, whom i would grant some semblance of "leadership" i can legitimately follow.
Mind you, that doesn't mean i treat other elders as crap, its just an equal respect granted to every other human being which is a basic guideline of manners and dignity... but influencing me without coercion? only the first group i mentioned.
For example, a very intelligent and educated, 120 year old Randite? I'd probably tell them to fuck off by all means.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 01, 2013, 03:35:08 AM
Apropos of nothing; studies indicate that, although the belief has long been that people lose influence as they get older, because people become gradually less likely to give weight to what they have to say, there is evidence that what may be happening is that as people age, their sense of confidence and self-esteem often erodes due to their reduced perception of sexual attractiveness and vitality, causing them to present themselves to others with less authority and confidence, in turn creating a self-reinforcing feedback loop wherein others respond to them according to their reduced confidence, and so on. Evidently, people who don't think people take them less seriously as they age are right, and people who do think people take them less seriously... are also right.
This is encouraging. My old plan for aging was just to hit people indiscriminately with my cane.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 01, 2013, 03:19:43 PM
Also, our culture has a pretty strong recurring narrative of "we don't value our elderly" that feeds into this waning confidence. I think it's important to combat that by retaining a strong and confident voice as we age.
Yes! Also it would be pretty cool to somehow integrate the concept of the village elders into our culture. We don't have elders, just old folks who we eventually export to Florida. It seems that maybe if you've been alive for 70 years you might know something. Or at least just a different perspective.
I'm more worried about staying employed as I age.
Just sayin'.
Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on August 02, 2013, 05:04:12 AM
I'm more worried about staying employed as I age.
Just sayin'.
...and you think that isn't related, why?
Quote from: The Johnny on August 01, 2013, 07:49:21 PM
I think that a lot of it comes from a position of power, which peaks right before retirement when one has the most experience in a given field and has underlings, then one retires and a lot of that confidence that revolved around those factors suddenly have no sustain.
Another reason not to build your entire self around your job.
Personally, I'm simply planning to never retire.
However, many studies that talk about the disempowerment of the elderly deal with feelings of disempowerment in the workplace.
I think the disconnect is this:
People are under the idea that they either have to listen to the elderly unquestioningly, or reject their input completely. Given that A) primates always challenge their elders for leadership and B) living to an old age hasn't necessarily meant wisdom since about the time we stopped worrying about being eaten by leopards, most people decide to ignore their input entirely, leading to disempowerment.
The one place I don't see this happen is in the trades, where old age means experience, and experience is the single most important facet of a tradesman.
When I was doing other work, old age meant weakness.
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 02, 2013, 05:46:30 AM
Quote from: The Johnny on August 01, 2013, 07:49:21 PM
I think that a lot of it comes from a position of power, which peaks right before retirement when one has the most experience in a given field and has underlings, then one retires and a lot of that confidence that revolved around those factors suddenly have no sustain.
Another reason not to build your entire self around your job.
Personally, I'm simply planning to never retire.
My grandmother is still working well into her 80s. I think the day she retires is the day she dies. :(
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 02, 2013, 05:43:24 AM
Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on August 02, 2013, 05:04:12 AM
I'm more worried about staying employed as I age.
Just sayin'.
...and you think that isn't related, why?
Oh, it is...and it's another one of those damn things I don't quite know what to do about.
Quote from: stelz on August 01, 2013, 10:24:13 PM
Maybe some of the problem for old people is misinterpreted body language? A lot of them have a hesitant way of moving because they don't see well, don't want to fall on their ass lest they break something, etc. and it probably gets mistaken for timidity.
So yeah. Doubling up on the horrible as time goes on seems like sound policy.
This would seem to be a good point.
I wonder if those who take measures to keep mobile and physically active are less likely to be seen as less capable.
Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on August 04, 2013, 11:44:58 PM
Quote from: M. Nigel Salt on August 02, 2013, 05:43:24 AM
Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on August 02, 2013, 05:04:12 AM
I'm more worried about staying employed as I age.
Just sayin'.
...and you think that isn't related, why?
Oh, it is...and it's another one of those damn things I don't quite know what to do about.
Quote from: stelz on August 01, 2013, 10:24:13 PM
Maybe some of the problem for old people is misinterpreted body language? A lot of them have a hesitant way of moving because they don't see well, don't want to fall on their ass lest they break something, etc. and it probably gets mistaken for timidity.
So yeah. Doubling up on the horrible as time goes on seems like sound policy.
This would seem to be a good point.
I wonder if those who take measures to keep mobile and physically active are less likely to be seen as less capable.
I know that is the case, at least in my eyes.
I intend to become braver as i get older, instead of allowing fear of merely broken bones to stop me.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on August 02, 2013, 03:08:09 PM
I think the disconnect is this:
People are under the idea that they either have to listen to the elderly unquestioningly, or reject their input completely. Given that A) primates always challenge their elders for leadership and B) living to an old age hasn't necessarily meant wisdom since about the time we stopped worrying about being eaten by leopards, most people decide to ignore their input entirely, leading to disempowerment.
The one place I don't see this happen is in the trades, where old age means experience, and experience is the single most important facet of a tradesman.
When I was doing other work, old age meant weakness.
A heap of this. That experience is a pretty much invaluable confidence booster when you consider the trades in the UK. I've never seen a single "Older" person take any level of shit from a kid, regardless of rank and role.
I would suggest that Gender may be worth mentioning as a broader stroke. It seems that elderly women generally get less public attention/respect compared to elderly men. I suspect this may tie into the earlier point with age = work experience. It would help to explain the number of old/elderly politicians for example.
I have points to make here but I'm a bit disjointed and need to think more.