we can tell because we have language. and art. and designer handbags.
this is comforting, because in the great scheme of things where things can go horrible at any moment, at least every one of us has won the genetic lottery and been born as a truly intelligent creature.
if you wish to maintain this belief and preserve this comfort, please do not click this link (http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2013/06/21/science-prairie-dog-language-decoded.html).
:lulz: White people finally figure out something EVERYONE ELSE ON EARTH HAS KNOWN FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.
Those silly, naive primitives, thinking animals talk to each other!
Quote from: TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR GENITALS on August 18, 2013, 06:53:39 PM
:lulz: White people finally figure out something EVERYONE ELSE ON EARTH HAS KNOWN FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.
Those silly, naive primitives, thinking animals talk to each other!
I do not believe Caucasians are alone in assuming other animals to be inherently inferior to humans. In fact the primary source of such belief in European culture is a religion that originated with decidedly non-White people. I think this article is more important as a statement about the short-sighted arrogance of "technological supremacy" than about shaming Whites for being automatically racist.
Quote from: V3X on August 18, 2013, 07:01:16 PM
Quote from: TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR GENITALS on August 18, 2013, 06:53:39 PM
:lulz: White people finally figure out something EVERYONE ELSE ON EARTH HAS KNOWN FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.
Those silly, naive primitives, thinking animals talk to each other!
I do not believe Caucasians are alone in assuming other animals to be inherently inferior to humans. In fact the primary source of such belief in European culture is a religion that originated with decidedly non-White people. I think this article is more important as a statement about the short-sighted arrogance of "technological supremacy" than about shaming Whites for being automatically racist.
I was more jokingly mocking Western colonial culture for its automatic assumption that all non-human animals were incapable of communication, and also that all the people it considered "primitive" were just silly/naive for their beliefs that animals could talk. You're right, some nonwestern societies make the same assumption, they just haven't been quite as good at shitting all over everyone else on the globe with it.
But you can get all uptight about it if you want, I won't try to stop you.
Quote from: TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR GENITALS on August 18, 2013, 07:08:37 PM
Quote from: V3X on August 18, 2013, 07:01:16 PM
Quote from: TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR GENITALS on August 18, 2013, 06:53:39 PM
:lulz: White people finally figure out something EVERYONE ELSE ON EARTH HAS KNOWN FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.
Those silly, naive primitives, thinking animals talk to each other!
I do not believe Caucasians are alone in assuming other animals to be inherently inferior to humans. In fact the primary source of such belief in European culture is a religion that originated with decidedly non-White people. I think this article is more important as a statement about the short-sighted arrogance of "technological supremacy" than about shaming Whites for being automatically racist.
I was more jokingly mocking Western colonial culture for its automatic assumption that all non-human animals were incapable of communication, and also that all the people it considered "primitive" were just silly/naive for their beliefs that animals could talk. You're right, some nonwestern societies make the same assumption, they just haven't been quite as good at shitting all over everyone else on the globe with it.
But you can get all uptight about it if you want, I won't try to stop you.
Not up tight. Also not 100% clear on "when Nigel is joking and when Nigel is not really joking."
*
The article itself surprised me -- not just in that it documents animals communicating with each other (I already knew that happened), and not just at the complexity of the communication (Dolphins can retransmit 3D images via language, FFS), but at how much more
efficient groundhog language is than human language. It takes them 1/10 of one second to say "There's a tall thin human in a blue shirt walking across the colony."
So not only are humans
not unique in having language (I already knew that much), but human language is LESS EFFICIENT than PRAIRIE DOG language. This I did not know.
Quote from: V3X on August 18, 2013, 07:19:36 PM
Quote from: TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR GENITALS on August 18, 2013, 07:08:37 PM
Quote from: V3X on August 18, 2013, 07:01:16 PM
Quote from: TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR GENITALS on August 18, 2013, 06:53:39 PM
:lulz: White people finally figure out something EVERYONE ELSE ON EARTH HAS KNOWN FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.
Those silly, naive primitives, thinking animals talk to each other!
I do not believe Caucasians are alone in assuming other animals to be inherently inferior to humans. In fact the primary source of such belief in European culture is a religion that originated with decidedly non-White people. I think this article is more important as a statement about the short-sighted arrogance of "technological supremacy" than about shaming Whites for being automatically racist.
I was more jokingly mocking Western colonial culture for its automatic assumption that all non-human animals were incapable of communication, and also that all the people it considered "primitive" were just silly/naive for their beliefs that animals could talk. You're right, some nonwestern societies make the same assumption, they just haven't been quite as good at shitting all over everyone else on the globe with it.
But you can get all uptight about it if you want, I won't try to stop you.
Not up tight. Also not 100% clear on "when Nigel is joking and when Nigel is not really joking."
*
The article itself surprised me -- not just in that it documents animals communicating with each other (I already knew that happened), and not just at the complexity of the communication (Dolphins can retransmit 3D images via language, FFS), but at how much more efficient groundhog language is than human language. It takes them 1/10 of one second to say "There's a tall thin human in a blue shirt walking across the colony."
So not only are humans not unique in having language (I already knew that much), but human language is LESS EFFICIENT than PRAIRIE DOG language. This I did not know.
It makes sense to me, because they only live about eight years and have much faster metabolisms. From that perspective, their entire existence is more efficient than human existence.
Dolphins can basically speak 3d images? Weird
Quote from: Aloha Ackbar on August 18, 2013, 11:43:04 PM
Dolphins can basically speak 3d images? Weird
Yeah they reproduce the results of their echolocation when talking to other dolphins. Plus context.
... But we're not implying sentience yet, right?
Because that's a can of worms humanity is not phychologically nor morally prepared for.
Quote from: TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR GENITALS on August 18, 2013, 06:53:39 PM
:lulz: White people finally figure out something EVERYONE ELSE ON EARTH HAS KNOWN FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.
Those silly, naive primitives, thinking animals talk to each other!
Hey, historically speaking, White people just figured out that Brown people can talk to each other.
:lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 19, 2013, 06:03:38 PM
Quote from: TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR GENITALS on August 18, 2013, 06:53:39 PM
:lulz: White people finally figure out something EVERYONE ELSE ON EARTH HAS KNOWN FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.
Those silly, naive primitives, thinking animals talk to each other!
Hey, historically speaking, White people just figured out that Brown people can talk to each other.
:lulz:
:lulz: Good point.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 19, 2013, 05:36:50 PM
... But we're not implying sentience yet, right?
Because that's a can of worms humanity is not phychologically nor morally prepared for.
Depends on who "we" is; in India dolphins are legally considered nonhuman persons.
Whoa, really?
Yep! Just officially as of April of this year, I think.
Ah, even more recently; it was just last month!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/07/30/1226634/-India-Declares-Dolphins-Non-Human-Persons-Dolphin-shows-BANNED
Did anyone throw up the link with the research indicating dolphins have names?
Which adds several extra layers of horror to "The Cove". When the google app exists to translate this shit easily that is going to be turbo nightmare fuel.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23410137
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 19, 2013, 06:03:38 PM
Quote from: TALK TO ME ABOUT YOUR GENITALS on August 18, 2013, 06:53:39 PM
:lulz: White people finally figure out something EVERYONE ELSE ON EARTH HAS KNOWN FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.
Those silly, naive primitives, thinking animals talk to each other!
Hey, historically speaking, White people just figured out that Brown people can talk to each other.
:lulz:
Depending on your timeframe, white people have only just been able to figure out how to talk to each other too.
Some are still learning.
Quote from: Junkenstein on August 19, 2013, 09:28:02 PM
Did anyone throw up the link with the research indicating dolphins have names?
Which adds several extra layers of horror to "The Cove". When the google app exists to translate this shit easily that is going to be turbo nightmare fuel.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-23410137
Oh, jesus. Yeah.
:horror:
I really really like the idea of designating dolphins as nonhuman persons. It feels like its a stronger statement than admitting they are sentient. Id like to see that extended to other aquatic animals and primates.
QuoteSeems reasonable enough. Considering dolphin intelligence has been long been established, this declaration doesn't seem to be a particularly radical move. They exhibit self-awareness, use tools, cooperate to solve tasks, don't vote Republican, and very recently it was found that they possibly communicate to each other using individual names.
Wait, what? :lulz:
Quote from: :regret: on August 19, 2013, 10:26:16 PM
QuoteSeems reasonable enough. Considering dolphin intelligence has been long been established, this declaration doesn't seem to be a particularly radical move. They exhibit self-awareness, use tools, cooperate to solve tasks, don't vote Republican, and very recently it was found that they possibly communicate to each other using individual names.
Wait, what? :lulz:
Yeah i thought that quite good too. :lulz:
Nonhuman personhood both interests of and makes of uncomfortable since i quite like bacon and black pudding but recognize that porcine intelligence is in a bit of a grew area. Indeed when i was younger i refused to eat pork for that very reason but the smell is a bit hard to resist. If cloned meat becomes a viable thing though obviously i would opt for that.
Sentience, self awareness, whatever you want to call it is something that the scientists couldn't wrap their heads around for fucking years. I dismissed psychology as a crock of superstitious bullshit until they'd dealt with that particular issue. I remember a scientist (phd zoologist) patiently explaining to me how (unlike us humans) animals like dogs learn "by association". I shook my head and walked away. Ironically, I now associate that same guy with being a fucking idiot.
I mean, yeah, our thinking, especially at the meta-end of the scale would appear to be way in advance of anything observed in the rest of nature but brains are brains, bunch of neurons all wired up pretty much the same way. I'm almost certain that the belief that we are some special case springs more from religion than science.
Prarie dogs can't speak Human, so they don't look so smart to me.
"India considers dolphins non-human persons"
So, in the event of crime by dolphin, do they get tried under human laws? Do they wheel the accused into court in a tank equipped with an undewater microphone?
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on August 21, 2013, 09:07:47 PM
"India considers dolphins non-human persons"
So, in the event of crime by dolphin, do they get tried under human laws? Do they wheel the accused into court in a tank equipped with an undewater microphone?
Dolphins wouldnt be subject to indian laws since the recognition states that they cant be held in captivity. Its more that they have the right to not be bothered by or have to amuse humans.
Quote from: Aloha Ackbar on August 21, 2013, 09:15:25 PM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on August 21, 2013, 09:07:47 PM
"India considers dolphins non-human persons"
So, in the event of crime by dolphin, do they get tried under human laws? Do they wheel the accused into court in a tank equipped with an undewater microphone?
Dolphins wouldnt be subject to indian laws since the recognition states that they cant be held in captivity. Its more that they have the right to not be bothered by or have to amuse humans.
So they're basically like corporations.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20142858
Been cruising the BBC links from that dolphin one. Elephants and Beluga whales are getting in on the action.
Quote from: Kai on August 21, 2013, 09:07:47 PM
"India considers dolphins non-human persons"
So, in the event of crime by dolphin, do they get tried under human laws? Do they wheel the accused into court in a tank equipped with an undewater microphone?
I think the main ramification is that they can't be enslaved or exploited.
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on August 21, 2013, 10:30:23 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20142858
Been cruising the BBC links from that dolphin one. Elephants and Beluga whales are getting in on the action.
Pretty important to note the difference between imitation and language though.
Quote from: Kai on August 21, 2013, 10:36:56 PM
Quote from: Cardinal Pizza Deliverance. on August 21, 2013, 10:30:23 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20142858
Been cruising the BBC links from that dolphin one. Elephants and Beluga whales are getting in on the action.
Pretty important to note the difference between imitation and language though.
It is. However, there is increasingly significant evidence that these are animals which have their own languages, and understand the concept of language, and so imitating another language starts to cross over into "learning".
Many humans I know imitate language.
Just saying.
Quote from: Kai on August 21, 2013, 09:18:40 PM
Quote from: Aloha Ackbar on August 21, 2013, 09:15:25 PM
Quote from: ZL 'Kai' Burington, M.S. on August 21, 2013, 09:07:47 PM
"India considers dolphins non-human persons"
So, in the event of crime by dolphin, do they get tried under human laws? Do they wheel the accused into court in a tank equipped with an undewater microphone?
Dolphins wouldnt be subject to indian laws since the recognition states that they cant be held in captivity. Its more that they have the right to not be bothered by or have to amuse humans.
So they're basically like corporations.
:mittens:
Oh man how did i miss that? :lol: