In the spirit of treating mythology as the art of speaking of the ineffable, I have been messing around with a more expanded Discordian pantheon to allow a greater vocabulary for elaborated mythos. For I always felt Aneris should have been Male - and the consort of Eris (after all, isn't sex the ultimate physical symbol of non-duality?).
The Dude (cf. Dudism) corresponds to the closest thing I can see for a Discordian Buddha / Christ archetype - the Son, which represents the union of Order and Disorder. Of course these Buddha figures are inherently bias - they are Mystics and thus focus on guiding people from the Order of the Manifest to the Disorder of the Unmanifest. I have been trying to figure out what the reverse is - which would be the corresponding figure for the archetype of the Wizard. Simon Magus came to mind, and he definitely fits the bill, but I wanted a female. Then I found Hecate! She seems like the perfect deity for this role as a manifester, and is certainly considered a deity of Magi in European tradition. While the Dude is of the Way (= Dao = Chao), Hecate is the Goddess of Crossroads! She is traditionally depicted as a Three fold entity, which is fun because we can depict her as a five fold figure.
I earlier messed around with some Discordian elemental system http://www.fluxcraft.net/index.php/Magic (http://www.fluxcraft.net/index.php/Magic), and I figures I could convert it to a DiPentatheon of Discordian Gods. The result is this silly sigil I call the Wholy Fnord. Some of these could probably do with improved names, especially Hecate which I particularly love.
As a fan of Alan Watts' work, I wanted to add Maya and Lilla (Illusion/Magic and Play in Sanskrit) - such beautiful names that fit the scheme so well. I envision them as eternally 5 year old androgenous deities - sometimes playing nice, sometimes fighting one another.
(http://www.fluxcraft.net/images/5/57/The-wholy-fnord.png)
I might wanna try for a cosmogony later, but I am still questioning some of these choices. This could also possibly be used in an attempt to unify Discordianism with the SunGenius Church and Dudism, and expanding the pantheon to prevent it from being a trinity like Christianity xD
I was gonna do my little dance, but everyone already knows what I was about to say, so...
Question: Are they all aspects of a whole, or are they separate manifestations?
Kai,
getting all Arian Heresy up in here
What the fuck did I just skip reading? :eek:
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on August 21, 2013, 10:46:36 PM
What the fuck did I just skip reading? :eek:
Someone's out making up Gods to believe in again.
Oh what the fuck
Quote from: Ixxie on August 21, 2013, 10:30:17 PM
In the spirit of treating mythology as the art of speaking of the ineffable, I have been messing around with a more expanded Discordian pantheon to allow a greater vocabulary for elaborated mythos. For I always felt Aneris should have been Male - and the consort of Eris (after all, isn't sex the ultimate physical symbol of non-duality?).
The Dude (cf. Dudism) corresponds to the closest thing I can see for a Discordian Buddha / Christ archetype - the Son, which represents the union of Order and Disorder. Of course these Buddha figures are inherently bias - they are Mystics and thus focus on guiding people from the Order of the Manifest to the Disorder of the Unmanifest. I have been trying to figure out what the reverse is - which would be the corresponding figure for the archetype of the Wizard. Simon Magus came to mind, and he definitely fits the bill, but I wanted a female. Then I found Hecate! She seems like the perfect deity for this role as a manifester, and is certainly considered a deity of Magi in European tradition. While the Dude is of the Way (= Dao = Chao), Hecate is the Goddess of Crossroads! She is traditionally depicted as a Three fold entity, which is fun because we can depict her as a five fold figure.
I earlier messed around with some Discordian elemental system http://www.fluxcraft.net/index.php/Magic (http://www.fluxcraft.net/index.php/Magic), and I figures I could convert it to a DiPentatheon of Discordian Gods. The result is this silly sigil I call the Wholy Fnord. Some of these could probably do with improved names, especially Hecate which I particularly love.
As a fan of Alan Watts' work, I wanted to add Maya and Lilla (Illusion/Magic and Play in Sanskrit) - such beautiful names that fit the scheme so well. I envision them as eternally 5 year old androgenous deities - sometimes playing nice, sometimes fighting one another.
(http://www.fluxcraft.net/images/5/57/The-wholy-fnord.png)
I might wanna try for a cosmogony later, but I am still questioning some of these choices. This could also possibly be used in an attempt to unify Discordianism with the SunGenius Church and Dudism, and expanding the pantheon to prevent it from being a trinity like Christianity xD
Cool stuff. Thanks for sharing! I find this stuff very interesting.
Pedantic point- magi refers to ancient zoroastrian priesthood which had no goddesses and was persian. Hecate is anatolian in origin.
Quote from: Aloha Ackbar on August 21, 2013, 11:29:02 PM
Pedantic point- magi refers to ancient zoroastrian priesthood which had no goddesses and was persian. Hecate is anatolian in origin.
Gods are freely available at WalMart, now. You can just go to the right aisle, and there you are.
Quote from: Ixxie on August 21, 2013, 10:30:17 PM
Hecate is the Goddess of Crossroads! She is traditionally depicted as a Three fold entity, which is fun because we can depict her as a five fold figure.
GOT IT
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/94/Roseanne_cast.png/350px-Roseanne_cast.png)
THE CAST OF ROSEANNE
(http://thirdanddelaware.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/lookalikeroseanne16496roseanne.jpg)
Roseanne
(http://por-img.cimcontent.net/api/assets/bin-201308/10f919f0ee23fc85eaec5e6b28d03fcc.jpg)
Beverly (her mom)
(http://www.fnordinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/beckys1.jpg)
Becky (older daughter)
(http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_md2164tE6r1rkv6sto1_500.png)
Darlene (younger daughter)
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/e697567890e30d88461ca16d4724e60e/tumblr_mjiud59q1U1qfc062o1_250.gif)
Jackie (sister)
or Desinty's Childe
(http://24.media.tumblr.com/7b4115137edc7535ffd868fbf3d4c030/tumblr_mho9676wL61qzalq2o1_400.gif)
(http://i.imgur.com/NXAsMEO.jpg)
if that doesn't say triple goddess, get off the bridge
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 21, 2013, 11:57:45 PM
Quote from: Aloha Ackbar on August 21, 2013, 11:29:02 PM
Pedantic point- magi refers to ancient zoroastrian priesthood which had no goddesses and was persian. Hecate is anatolian in origin.
Gods are freely available at WalMart, now. You can just go to the right aisle, and there you are.
Should i consult my physician if i have an reaction to taking two gods at once?
(http://whatcanilearntoday.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/spice-girls.jpg)
ye spyce wymen
Discussion reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cam2kK7J_8k
:?
I can't decide if I want to encourage it, laugh or just watch the show...
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 22, 2013, 09:37:25 AM
:?
I can't decide if I want to encourage it, laugh or just watch the show...
There's no reason you can't try a bit of each before you decide
Kai: all are Manifestations of the Chao. I agree with the observation of TGRR - its all Maya. Then again - I would supplement that by saying that the preceding sentence is also Maya.
Aloha: interesting! Zoroasterism seemed to be quite Dualistic when I last examined it - although admittedly this was a superficial graze. On the other hand that fits the seem of the Magi - which after all plays with the Dual (Maya). Anatolian origin makes sense..... I read Hecate played a big part of Demeter's Agrarian cult and the Eleusinian Mysteries. AFAIR current theories place the origin of agriculture in Anatolia so its possible this is a case of Cultural Hitchhiking (as indeed I suspect is the case with the Proto-Indo-European language).
Cram: nice idea xD those look like mighty fine witches, it seems Hecate has been manifesting her ass in the 20th century too.
Kai: That video is awesome xD that guy is awesome - I have but one gripe: I believe he misinterpreted religion's etymology, for clearly the binding is not to a belief but to the universe.
(http://i3.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/005/954/wtf_is_this_shit2_RE_73_Million_Sharks_Killed_Every_Year-s468x349-71815.jpg)
cf. the first sentence of this thread :fap:
Quote from: Ixxie on August 22, 2013, 11:22:27 AM
cf. the first sentence of this thread :fap:
No, shut up, you are clearly some kind of wizard.
Quote from: Cramulus on August 22, 2013, 12:13:43 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/NXAsMEO.jpg)
if that doesn't say triple goddess, get off the bridge
Tasha Yar Died for our sins.
Quote from: Ixxie on August 22, 2013, 11:12:45 AM
Kai: all are Manifestations of the Chao. I agree with the observation of TGRR - its all Maya. Then again - I would supplement that by saying that the preceding sentence is also Maya.
Aloha: interesting! Zoroasterism seemed to be quite Dualistic when I last examined it - although admittedly this was a superficial graze. On the other hand that fits the seem of the Magi - which after all plays with the Dual (Maya). Anatolian origin makes sense..... I read Hecate played a big part of Demeter's Agrarian cult and the Eleusinian Mysteries. AFAIR current theories place the origin of agriculture in Anatolia so its possible this is a case of Cultural Hitchhiking (as indeed I suspect is the case with the Proto-Indo-European language).
Cram: nice idea xD those look like mighty fine witches, it seems Hecate has been manifesting her ass in the 20th century too.
Kai: That video is awesome xD that guy is awesome - I have but one gripe: I believe he misinterpreted religion's etymology, for clearly the binding is not to a belief but to the universe.
1) So, some sort of pseudo-panentheism?
2) No, he got that right, binding to a belief.
Quote from: Ixxie on August 22, 2013, 11:12:45 AM
Kai: all are Manifestations of the Chao. I agree with the observation of TGRR - its all Maya. Then again - I would supplement that by saying that the preceding sentence is also Maya.
Aloha: interesting! Zoroasterism seemed to be quite Dualistic when I last examined it - although admittedly this was a superficial graze. On the other hand that fits the seem of the Magi - which after all plays with the Dual (Maya). Anatolian origin makes sense..... I read Hecate played a big part of Demeter's Agrarian cult and the Eleusinian Mysteries. AFAIR current theories place the origin of agriculture in Anatolia so its possible this is a case of Cultural Hitchhiking (as indeed I suspect is the case with the Proto-Indo-European language).
Cram: nice idea xD those look like mighty fine witches, it seems Hecate has been manifesting her ass in the 20th century too.
Kai: That video is awesome xD that guy is awesome - I have but one gripe: I believe he misinterpreted religion's etymology, for clearly the binding is not to a belief but to the universe.
Zoroastrianism appears dualistic on the surface, and at various points during its history it may well have been dualistic, but at least one modern Zoroastrian priest defines Ahriman as the absence of Ahura Mazda, rather than the opposite of Ahura Mazda. It's an intriguing thought, since that would be like describing Satan as the absence of Jesus, rather than his enemy. Then again, Christianity is not properly dualistic either, since Satan is not given equal status. And also, even if Zoroastrianism is entirely dualistic, it's a different sort of dualism than that found in Discordianism, since it's morality based.
1) I guess it is a sort of Non-Dual Panentheism yes - with these deities intended to metaphorically map the relationships between the Erisian and Anerisian aspects.
2) I would love a citation on that! I always figured the Binding was taken in the sense of Yoga - a Union of self and non-self or any apparent polarity..... Perhaps the meaning drifted?
3) I'll take your word for it; so it seems the Ahura Mazda is like the Non-Dual (i.e. the Chao) and the absence of this - Ahriman -is the dual? In the above proposed scheme the Dude is the Jesus figure - a symbol of the non-dual bridging. Hecate is the converse Duality producing entity - the Witch Goddess / Satan. I do understand the difference in the type of Dualism - indeed the Entropic dualism in Discordianism is one of its chief appeals to me :)
This discussion produced the following thought: The supreme brilliance of the Sacred Chao is that it inherently symbolizes to the Non-Dualism of Dualism (the Anerisian) and Non-Dual (the Erisian).
Quote from: Ixxie on August 22, 2013, 02:01:57 PM
3) I'll take your word for it; so it seems the Ahura Mazda is like the Non-Dual (i.e. the Chao) and the absence of this - Ahriman -is the dual? In the above proposed scheme the Dude is the Jesus figure - a symbol of the non-dual bridging. Hecate is the converse Duality producing entity - the Witch Goddess / Satan. I do understand the difference in the type of Dualism - indeed the Entropic dualism in Discordianism is one of its chief appeals to me :)
Not quite. Ahura Mazda is a distinct and unambiguous figure, like the creator god of Abrahamic faiths. Well, less ambiguous anyway, since Yahweh is known to contradict himself for the purpose of being a jerk. For example, Ahura Mazda is worshiped with fire because he is associated with light. Darkness isn't its own thing, and not even the opposite of light. It's just an absence of light. No photons, nothing to talk about. In the dualistic model, Ahriman is an evil spirit, rather than some spot that Ahura Mazda missed, but the priest I said there really wasn't anything to Ahriman, since Ahriman is merely a descriptor of something that lacks that Mazda touch. (Ahura Mazda="Wise Lord" or something like that)
Allrighty.... curious configuration that is :P I filed this wonderful curiosity for my later senile years when I plan on taking copious amounts of drugs and studying obscure mysticism.
Eris and Aneris, I get... though I'm not sure why Aneris should necessarily be male. That seems like an unnecessary stereotype and might give rise to the idea that the feminine is disordered and the masculine is ordered. I also find The Dude to be a poor fit for the Son/Sun archetype... particularly if he's the product of Eris/Aneris. The Dude doesn't strike me as a balance or bridge between order and disorder, The Dude seems more likely a tie to The Fool, the innocent Parsifal starting on a journey that he doesn't understand and doesn't control, becoming something greater by the end of the journey.
As for the Magus, I would think this might be better fit with an identity of one who brings about change, the alchemical conversion of order to disorder, or disorder to order. In fact, I might be tempted to call this entity "Apophenia" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia) which is a cool name for a deity and also one that has shown up before in Discordia/Chaos Magic circles.
So who would the Son/Sun be, if not The Dude?
The bridge between that which is ordered and that which is disordered. Something that flip flops between the two perhaps? If we were to consider chaos theory for a moment, we may investigate the so-called "Feigenbaum sequence" that is the process wherein a system given a range of parameters is ordered for a period of time (T), when we go beyond the range the system becomes chaotic until we reach 2T (period doubling) at which point it again becomes ordered, then we reach the next threshold and the system becomes chaotic agaon until the next doubling wherein it returns to order and on and on. Perhaps an inspiration for a Son figure might arise from this?
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 22, 2013, 02:28:08 PM
Eris and Aneris, I get... though I'm not sure why Aneris should necessarily be male. That seems like an unnecessary stereotype and might give rise to the idea that the feminine is disordered and the masculine is ordered. I also find The Dude to be a poor fit for the Son/Sun archetype... particularly if he's the product of Eris/Aneris. The Dude doesn't strike me as a balance or bridge between order and disorder, The Dude seems more likely a tie to The Fool, the innocent Parsifal starting on a journey that he doesn't understand and doesn't control, becoming something greater by the end of the journey.
As for the Magus, I would think this might be better fit with an identity of one who brings about change, the alchemical conversion of order to disorder, or disorder to order. In fact, I might be tempted to call this entity "Apophenia" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia) which is a cool name for a deity and also one that has shown up before in Discordia/Chaos Magic circles.
So who would the Son/Sun be, if not The Dude?
The bridge between that which is ordered and that which is disordered. Something that flip flops between the two perhaps? If we were to consider chaos theory for a moment, we may investigate the so-called "Feigenbaum sequence" that is the process wherein a system given a range of parameters is ordered for a period of time (T), when we go beyond the range the system becomes chaotic until we reach 2T (period doubling) at which point it again becomes ordered, then we reach the next threshold and the system becomes chaotic agaon until the next doubling wherein it returns to order and on and on. Perhaps an inspiration for a Son figure might arise from this?
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111022154723/marveldatabase/images/thumb/c/c7/TheIncredibleHulkBruceBanner.jpg/250px-TheIncredibleHulkBruceBanner.jpg)
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on August 22, 2013, 02:30:33 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 22, 2013, 02:28:08 PM
Eris and Aneris, I get... though I'm not sure why Aneris should necessarily be male. That seems like an unnecessary stereotype and might give rise to the idea that the feminine is disordered and the masculine is ordered. I also find The Dude to be a poor fit for the Son/Sun archetype... particularly if he's the product of Eris/Aneris. The Dude doesn't strike me as a balance or bridge between order and disorder, The Dude seems more likely a tie to The Fool, the innocent Parsifal starting on a journey that he doesn't understand and doesn't control, becoming something greater by the end of the journey.
As for the Magus, I would think this might be better fit with an identity of one who brings about change, the alchemical conversion of order to disorder, or disorder to order. In fact, I might be tempted to call this entity "Apophenia" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia) which is a cool name for a deity and also one that has shown up before in Discordia/Chaos Magic circles.
So who would the Son/Sun be, if not The Dude?
The bridge between that which is ordered and that which is disordered. Something that flip flops between the two perhaps? If we were to consider chaos theory for a moment, we may investigate the so-called "Feigenbaum sequence" that is the process wherein a system given a range of parameters is ordered for a period of time (T), when we go beyond the range the system becomes chaotic until we reach 2T (period doubling) at which point it again becomes ordered, then we reach the next threshold and the system becomes chaotic agaon until the next doubling wherein it returns to order and on and on. Perhaps an inspiration for a Son figure might arise from this?
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111022154723/marveldatabase/images/thumb/c/c7/TheIncredibleHulkBruceBanner.jpg/250px-TheIncredibleHulkBruceBanner.jpg)
Hey, it was your idea for me to try a bit of each... :lulz:
Quote from: Ixxie on August 22, 2013, 02:27:40 PM
Allrighty.... curious configuration that is :P I filed this wonderful curiosity for my later senile years when I plan on taking copious amounts of drugs and studying obscure mysticism.
What configuration and whats curious about it?
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 22, 2013, 02:31:54 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on August 22, 2013, 02:30:33 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 22, 2013, 02:28:08 PM
Eris and Aneris, I get... though I'm not sure why Aneris should necessarily be male. That seems like an unnecessary stereotype and might give rise to the idea that the feminine is disordered and the masculine is ordered. I also find The Dude to be a poor fit for the Son/Sun archetype... particularly if he's the product of Eris/Aneris. The Dude doesn't strike me as a balance or bridge between order and disorder, The Dude seems more likely a tie to The Fool, the innocent Parsifal starting on a journey that he doesn't understand and doesn't control, becoming something greater by the end of the journey.
As for the Magus, I would think this might be better fit with an identity of one who brings about change, the alchemical conversion of order to disorder, or disorder to order. In fact, I might be tempted to call this entity "Apophenia" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia) which is a cool name for a deity and also one that has shown up before in Discordia/Chaos Magic circles.
So who would the Son/Sun be, if not The Dude?
The bridge between that which is ordered and that which is disordered. Something that flip flops between the two perhaps? If we were to consider chaos theory for a moment, we may investigate the so-called "Feigenbaum sequence" that is the process wherein a system given a range of parameters is ordered for a period of time (T), when we go beyond the range the system becomes chaotic until we reach 2T (period doubling) at which point it again becomes ordered, then we reach the next threshold and the system becomes chaotic agaon until the next doubling wherein it returns to order and on and on. Perhaps an inspiration for a Son figure might arise from this?
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111022154723/marveldatabase/images/thumb/c/c7/TheIncredibleHulkBruceBanner.jpg/250px-TheIncredibleHulkBruceBanner.jpg)
Hey, it was your idea for me to try a bit of each... :lulz:
I took my own advice. Hulk is sometimes chaos and other tiems he's bruce banner. Inspiration for the sun figure. So we get like, the father the son and HULK SMASH!!! or something like that
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on August 22, 2013, 02:36:52 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 22, 2013, 02:31:54 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on August 22, 2013, 02:30:33 PM
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 22, 2013, 02:28:08 PM
Eris and Aneris, I get... though I'm not sure why Aneris should necessarily be male. That seems like an unnecessary stereotype and might give rise to the idea that the feminine is disordered and the masculine is ordered. I also find The Dude to be a poor fit for the Son/Sun archetype... particularly if he's the product of Eris/Aneris. The Dude doesn't strike me as a balance or bridge between order and disorder, The Dude seems more likely a tie to The Fool, the innocent Parsifal starting on a journey that he doesn't understand and doesn't control, becoming something greater by the end of the journey.
As for the Magus, I would think this might be better fit with an identity of one who brings about change, the alchemical conversion of order to disorder, or disorder to order. In fact, I might be tempted to call this entity "Apophenia" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia) which is a cool name for a deity and also one that has shown up before in Discordia/Chaos Magic circles.
So who would the Son/Sun be, if not The Dude?
The bridge between that which is ordered and that which is disordered. Something that flip flops between the two perhaps? If we were to consider chaos theory for a moment, we may investigate the so-called "Feigenbaum sequence" that is the process wherein a system given a range of parameters is ordered for a period of time (T), when we go beyond the range the system becomes chaotic until we reach 2T (period doubling) at which point it again becomes ordered, then we reach the next threshold and the system becomes chaotic agaon until the next doubling wherein it returns to order and on and on. Perhaps an inspiration for a Son figure might arise from this?
(http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111022154723/marveldatabase/images/thumb/c/c7/TheIncredibleHulkBruceBanner.jpg/250px-TheIncredibleHulkBruceBanner.jpg)
Hey, it was your idea for me to try a bit of each... :lulz:
I took my own advice. Hulk is sometimes chaos and other tiems he's bruce banner. Inspiration for the sun figure. So we get like, the father the son and HULK SMASH!!! or something like that
I like it!
I am aware of sexual stereotyping issues, but find that they are often taken too far. Eris is female, and that's the main reason I chose to make Aneris male. The whole point of non-dualism is that these lines are blurred, and the sexual reproductive metaphor is beautiful to that end. This is the motivation for this rather arbitrary choice, but I am all for modifying this into a more LGBTH friendly pantheon if it can be done in a cool way. Maybe Maya and Lilla are Lesbian Lovers, Light and Darkness a Gay Couple, and the Dude and Hecate Transgendered in opposite directions. Ultimately - there's no fair way to do this - but this is not pretended to be some kind of ultimate correct model. Its a story telling tool.
I think you may have misunderstood my intention about the Dude - I did not intend him as a balancing force. The idea was to symbolize a Directional Guide from Order to Disorder (i.e. the typical Mystic) and conversely a Directional Guide from Disorder to Order (i.e. the typical Wizard/Witch). Thus these offspring do correspond to phase transitions in chaotic systems - each in a different direction. Incidentally - when I made this, I figured the gender issue you mentioned is elegantly mitigated by a Male Mystic archetype which moves from the Male Aneris to the Female Eris, and conversly a Female Witch archetype moving from the Female Eris to the Male Aneris.
If we consider Apophenia as the Magus, we could say that the Magus IS (in some sense) Perception, the magic of finding order in the disorder. Finding patterns, creating filters that allow us to create the the world around us. Indeed, one could say that Apophenia could be considered responsible for all religion, magic and other concepts that require humans to perceive patterns where they are none.
Quote from: Ixxie on August 22, 2013, 02:50:08 PM
I am aware of sexual stereotyping issues, but find that they are often taken too far. Eris is female, and that's the main reason I chose to make Aneris male. The whole point of non-dualism is that these lines are blurred, and the sexual reproductive metaphor is beautiful to that end. This is the motivation for this rather arbitrary choice, but I am all for modifying this into a more LGBTH friendly pantheon if it can be done in a cool way. Maybe Maya and Lilla are Lesbian Lovers, Light and Darkness a Gay Couple, and the Dude and Hecate Transgendered in opposite directions. Ultimately - there's no fair way to do this - but this is not pretended to be some kind of ultimate correct model. Its a story telling tool.
I think you may have misunderstood my intention about the Dude - I did not intend him as a balancing force. The idea was to symbolize a Directional Guide from Order to Disorder (i.e. the typical Mystic) and conversely a Directional Guide from Disorder to Order (i.e. the typical Wizard/Witch). Thus these offspring do correspond to phase transitions in chaotic systems - each in a different direction. Incidentally - when I made this, I figured the gender issue you mentioned is elegantly mitigated by a Male Mystic archetype which moves from the Male Aneris to the Female Eris, and conversly a Female Witch archetype moving from the Female Eris to the Male Aneris.
Oh I wasn't going for LBGTH specific stuff... but rather I find that the sexual identity may detract from the concept. Having them as sisters, in my mind gives them an association without bringing gender into the discussion. Besides, its not like order and disorder are boinking each other to bring about offspring, rather, Order and Disorder are perceptions of Chaos, no?
Eris and Aneris the children of Chaos, the Magus and Witch are that which interpret the perception and the Fool, Parsifal is the one who begins the journey without knowledge, he then must be transformed* so that by the end of the journey learns the power of the Magus and Witch and thus can order and disorder as he wishes, perhaps in this way becoming The Hierophant (Experience, Knowledge, Duality).
*Transformed through sacrifice in some sense... for are we not all forced to sacrifice when we embrace the absurd? Like Odin hung on Yggdrasil and losing an eye to gain knowledge, we sacrifice the blissful Conformity and Normality and gain the knowledge and power of Absurdity.
I may be misinterpreting you ixxie but are you saying that ahura mazda is a configuration of the chao? Because that feels a bit like trying to put the square peg in the round hole.
I guess Apophenia corresponds then to Hecate / the Witch. The reverse is perceiving the random patterns in what you thought was order - and this, imo, is the the mystical initiation. This is why I put the Mystic as opposing the Witch.
I donno man, I find the whole PC avoidance of gender in this taking the issue to far. As long as we remember Mythos is just a story and a metaphor and nothing more this is fine imo. The Sexual symbolism is so elegant I find it a shame to drop it, so I won't.
My understanding is that as babies - we are far more Erisian then after education. The typical process seems to be that in growing up we must have Apophenia in order to recognize general patterns by habit (fire=hot). But then we need to learn that this is just an Aneristic Illusion in one sense - and to learn to treat it as a tool and be able to see through it to the randomness. This lesson comes from initiation into mysticism, and does indeed entail a sort of sacrifice.
Quote from: Ixxie on August 22, 2013, 03:47:48 PM
I guess Apophenia corresponds then to Hecate / the Witch. The reverse is perceiving the random patterns in what you thought was order - and this, imo, is the the mystical initiation. This is why I put the Mystic as opposing the Witch.
Indeed!
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I donno man, I find the whole PC avoidance of gender in this taking the issue to far. As long as we remember Mythos is just a story and a metaphor and nothing more this is fine imo. The Sexual symbolism is so elegant I find it a shame to drop it, so I won't.
I'm not intending this to be PC or non-PC... I just don't see the elegance of sexual symbolism between order and disorder. These seem opposed and divergent aspects/interpretations of Chaos, rather than two things that come together to create. Which is why I see the sibling (could be brother/sister the sex of the individuals doesn't seem as key as the 'relationship' between them) as more symbolic than one with sexual connotations.
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My understanding is that as babies - we are far more Erisian then after education. The typical process seems to be that in growing up we must have Apophenia in order to recognize general patterns by habit (fire=hot). But then we need to learn that this is just an Aneristic Illusion in one sense - and to learn to treat it as a tool and be able to see through it to the randomness. This lesson comes from initiation into mysticism, and does indeed entail a sort of sacrifice.
The knowledge of a sage and the wisdom of a child ;-)
Stop trying to desex my mysticism, damnit! I'll have you know I fapped one off to every sephira on the otz chaim :argh!:
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on August 22, 2013, 05:06:31 PM
Stop trying to desex my mysticism, damnit! I'll have you know I fapped one off to every sephira on the otz chaim :argh!:
You could fap to brother/sister mysticism... ITS TRADITIONAL!
Quote from: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 22, 2013, 05:07:51 PM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on August 22, 2013, 05:06:31 PM
Stop trying to desex my mysticism, damnit! I'll have you know I fapped one off to every sephira on the otz chaim :argh!:
You could fap to brother/sister mysticism... ITS TRADITIONAL!
Could they be dressed up as my little pony? No particular reason, just wondering if that could maybe happen?
I'm sorry, but you just can't use the Dude in there. I've already soul-bonded with him because deep down, my fursona is an oriental rug.