It has been stewing in the back of my brain for some time now that there is something interesting going on with people who dislike children. I'm not talking about people who are simply uncomfortable with kids, or don't know how to handle them, or who don't want kids of their own. I'm talking about people who express an arbitrary contempt and/or aversion towards all people below the age at which they are able to have articulate adult conversations.
I wonder if it has something to do with self-loathing, with hating their own child selves, rooted in a lack of nurturing, love, and respect shown to them by adult figures in their lives; a sort of self-defensive move. Perhaps their child-selves felt rejected, and to ease their cognitive dissonance and preserve a sense of worth, they unconsciously adapted by forming a belief that it is not that they were rejected because they, individually, were unlovable, but because children are not worth loving. Almost unvaryingly, these same people fail to express liking, compassion, or respect for their own child-selves.
I can't seem to find any research on this, wondering if it's something I should explore at some point.
I think a lot of it is resentment about getting old.
Jealousy is a terrible thing.
Just my untrained opinion.
Quote from: FOCUS GROUP RAGEMONKEY OF HATE HATE HATE on August 23, 2013, 10:47:02 PM
It has been stewing in the back of my brain for some time now that there is something interesting going on with people who dislike children. I'm not talking about people who are simply uncomfortable with kids, or don't know how to handle them, or who don't want kids of their own. I'm talking about people who express an arbitrary contempt and/or aversion towards all people below the age at which they are able to have articulate adult conversations.
I wonder if it has something to do with self-loathing, with hating their own child selves, rooted in a lack of nurturing, love, and respect shown to them by adult figures in their lives; a sort of self-defensive move. Perhaps their child-selves felt rejected, and to ease their cognitive dissonance and preserve a sense of worth, they unconsciously adapted by forming a belief that it is not that they were rejected because they, individually, were unlovable, but because children are not worth loving. Almost unvaryingly, these same people fail to express liking, compassion, or respect for their own child-selves.
I can't seem to find any research on this, wondering if it's something I should explore at some point.
That sounds plausible.
On the other hand, this got me thinking. I now have some reading to do this weekend.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 23, 2013, 10:48:15 PM
I think a lot of it is resentment about getting old.
Jealousy is a terrible thing.
Just my untrained opinion.
I don't think so, and the reason I don't think so is because everyone I have ever met who actively dislikes children, I met when they were young, and they started out with disliking themselves.
Quote from: FOCUS GROUP RAGEMONKEY OF HATE HATE HATE on August 23, 2013, 10:59:09 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 23, 2013, 10:48:15 PM
I think a lot of it is resentment about getting old.
Jealousy is a terrible thing.
Just my untrained opinion.
I don't think so, and the reason I don't think so is because everyone I have ever met who actively dislikes children, I met when they were young, and they started out with disliking themselves.
I can see that. I can't think about it now, because Larry's talking at me while I read & type.
I will do some googling this weekend.
It seems pretty plausible and something worthy of researching he it hasnt been looked into yet.
I also suspect that some people who say they dont like children are thinking something akin to saying i dont like people with cellphones when they mean i dont like it when people yell at their sexual partner on the phone in the middle of the street.
Quote from: Aloha Ackbar on August 23, 2013, 11:08:36 PM
I also suspect that some people who say they dont like children are thinking something akin to saying i dont like people with cellphones when they mean i dont like it when people yell at their sexual partner on the phone in the middle of the street.
Right, I'm talking about something far more specific than that, which is why I specifically said:
QuoteI'm not talking about people who are simply uncomfortable with kids, or don't know how to handle them, or who don't want kids of their own. I'm talking about people who express an arbitrary contempt and/or aversion towards all people below the age at which they are able to have articulate adult conversations.
You know the sort... the kind who proclaim their disgust at the mere idea of being in the same building with a child. The ones who call children "disgusting" or "stupid".
It occurs to me that these behaviors have an awful lot in common with homophobia.
Right right. Sorry about that. Brain fog.
Homophobia? Like they are similar traits? The hate?
I dislike children. They make me uncomfortable. And I hated myself as a child.
This is an interesting thing I think you should look into.
May I suggest that at one point or another, EVERY person hated their childhood?
Not to derail your thesis, but childhood sucking seems to be fairly universal.
Quote from: Sir Squid Diddimus on August 24, 2013, 06:25:26 AM
Homophobia? Like they are similar traits? The hate?
I dislike children. They make me uncomfortable. And I hated myself as a child.
This is an interesting thing I think you should look into.
Yeah, like maybe there are some similarities in redirecting a sort of self-hating outward. It makes me wonder. I was very uncomfortable with children (and disliked my child self) until I'd been through a particularly relevant spot of therapy.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 24, 2013, 08:35:42 AM
May I suggest that at one point or another, EVERY person hated their childhood?
Not to derail your thesis, but childhood sucking seems to be fairly universal.
But then there's the people who hated their ENTIRE childhood.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 24, 2013, 08:35:42 AM
May I suggest that at one point or another, EVERY person hated their childhood?
Not to derail your thesis, but childhood sucking seems to be fairly universal.
Actually, no. Not everybody hated their childhood, interestingly, or hated being a kid.
Nonetheless, those are different things from hating your past self, particularly when you carry that self-loathing into adulthood. It's interesting, because people can more or less like who they are as adults and yet still carry around a load of unresolved loathing for who they were as children, even quite young children, blaming themselves for mistakes and even abuse. They often compartmentalize, too, viewing that past self as almost a different person. It's pretty complicated.
WHAT ON EARTH ARE WE ALL DOING UP RIGHT NOW? DO WE KNOW WHAT TIME IT IS?
:crankey:
Quote from: FOCUS GROUP RAGEMONKEY OF HATE HATE HATE on August 24, 2013, 08:48:46 AM
WHAT ON EARTH ARE WE ALL DOING UP RIGHT NOW? DO WE KNOW WHAT TIME IT IS?
:crankey:
I'm listening to my techs howl like the damned over push-to-talk.
It's you, me, LMNO, and Cain in the middle of the fucking night. Gang's all here. :lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 24, 2013, 08:50:26 AM
Quote from: FOCUS GROUP RAGEMONKEY OF HATE HATE HATE on August 24, 2013, 08:48:46 AM
WHAT ON EARTH ARE WE ALL DOING UP RIGHT NOW? DO WE KNOW WHAT TIME IT IS?
:crankey:
I'm listening to my techs howl like the damned over push-to-talk.
It's you, me, LMNO, and Cain in the middle of the fucking night. Gang's all here. :lulz:
It's like the dark forces are calling us to the board. :lol:
I just got back from the hospital, for reasons that will go unexplained here. Suffice it to say that everyone is fine.
Quote from: FOCUS GROUP RAGEMONKEY OF HATE HATE HATE on August 24, 2013, 09:04:05 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 24, 2013, 08:50:26 AM
Quote from: FOCUS GROUP RAGEMONKEY OF HATE HATE HATE on August 24, 2013, 08:48:46 AM
WHAT ON EARTH ARE WE ALL DOING UP RIGHT NOW? DO WE KNOW WHAT TIME IT IS?
:crankey:
I'm listening to my techs howl like the damned over push-to-talk.
It's you, me, LMNO, and Cain in the middle of the fucking night. Gang's all here. :lulz:
It's like the dark forces are calling us to the board. :lol:
I just got back from the hospital, for reasons that will go unexplained here. Suffice it to say that everyone is fine.
Burn ward theme park?
Jesus.
I used to handle over-nighters WAY better than this.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 24, 2013, 09:06:57 AM
Quote from: FOCUS GROUP RAGEMONKEY OF HATE HATE HATE on August 24, 2013, 09:04:05 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 24, 2013, 08:50:26 AM
Quote from: FOCUS GROUP RAGEMONKEY OF HATE HATE HATE on August 24, 2013, 08:48:46 AM
WHAT ON EARTH ARE WE ALL DOING UP RIGHT NOW? DO WE KNOW WHAT TIME IT IS?
:crankey:
I'm listening to my techs howl like the damned over push-to-talk.
It's you, me, LMNO, and Cain in the middle of the fucking night. Gang's all here. :lulz:
It's like the dark forces are calling us to the board. :lol:
I just got back from the hospital, for reasons that will go unexplained here. Suffice it to say that everyone is fine.
Burn ward theme park?
:lulz:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 24, 2013, 09:07:28 AM
Jesus.
I used to handle over-nighters WAY better than this.
Yeah, I just got all kinds of cranky and yelled at my children and took EFO's tea away and poured it down the drain. Tea. At one thirty in the morning.
Quote from: FOCUS GROUP RAGEMONKEY OF HATE HATE HATE on August 24, 2013, 08:47:37 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 24, 2013, 08:35:42 AM
May I suggest that at one point or another, EVERY person hated their childhood?
Not to derail your thesis, but childhood sucking seems to be fairly universal.
Actually, no. Not everybody hated their childhood, interestingly, or hated being a kid.
Nonetheless, those are different things from hating your past self, particularly when you carry that self-loathing into adulthood. It's interesting, because people can more or less like who they are as adults and yet still carry around a load of unresolved loathing for who they were as children, even quite young children, blaming themselves for mistakes and even abuse. They often compartmentalize, too, viewing that past self as almost a different person. It's pretty complicated.
Hang on, i understand the need to stop blaming yourself for abuse or shit you had no say in, but why should you stop blaming your younger self for mistakes?
Oh, oh! I just asked that question of my adult self and i did not get the answer i was expecting. Mistakes are learning moments, not crimes. Well sometimes they are crimes in the legal sense, but never in the sense that punishment is a useful response.
Shit, I got some shit to work through.
I will often say that I hate kids, however, I don't actually HATE them or don't like them, I just don't particularly like being around them. I'm definitely uncomfortable with babies and elementary age kids, and I do not want any for myself. I'm not going to go out of the way to steer clear of them, though. They're kinda everywhere, and I do have friends that are reproducing. I just find that I particularly have no interest in making an effort to get to know children or making them a part of my lives if I do not have to. There are kids in my apartment building, one of them in a constant screamer which can get rather annoying, but I'm not about to pack up and leave because of it.
Well. I hated my entire childhood. I can't think of a single good memory. Even the okay ones are filled with fear and hate and loathing. I realized that's why I didn't like kids, at some point.
Not just that I wasn't treated properly as a kid but because of that and what followed, I had NO IDEA how to interact with kids in a healthy way and I don't want to inadvertently contribute to their future therapy sessions.
Now I just don't like the loud ones, their voices fall into the instant-headache range. And I don't like the poorly behaved ones but that is the parent's flaw, not the kid so much.
Quote from: :regret: on August 24, 2013, 03:46:04 PM
Quote from: FOCUS GROUP RAGEMONKEY OF HATE HATE HATE on August 24, 2013, 08:47:37 AM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 24, 2013, 08:35:42 AM
May I suggest that at one point or another, EVERY person hated their childhood?
Not to derail your thesis, but childhood sucking seems to be fairly universal.
Actually, no. Not everybody hated their childhood, interestingly, or hated being a kid.
Nonetheless, those are different things from hating your past self, particularly when you carry that self-loathing into adulthood. It's interesting, because people can more or less like who they are as adults and yet still carry around a load of unresolved loathing for who they were as children, even quite young children, blaming themselves for mistakes and even abuse. They often compartmentalize, too, viewing that past self as almost a different person. It's pretty complicated.
Hang on, i understand the need to stop blaming yourself for abuse or shit you had no say in, but why should you stop blaming your younger self for mistakes?
Oh, oh! I just asked that question of my adult self and i did not get the answer i was expecting. Mistakes are learning moments, not crimes. Well sometimes they are crimes in the legal sense, but never in the sense that punishment is a useful response.
Shit, I got some shit to work through.
Bingo! I love those "aha!" moments.
-
I never hated my childhood. I had a good one. I hated parts of it DURING the matter, but that was because I was an overdramatic teenager. I just have had no real desire to have children since I was about...7-8? I decided pretty early on.
What I also can't stand are the people who constantly question my motives for not wanting kids. Nigel is not doing this, she already said some people just don't want them, but when I have friends and family STILL telling me "Oh, you'll change your mind!" and "It's different when they're your own!" or "Don't you want a kid to carry on your husband/boyfriend's last name?" I just think that's fucking petty a hell. Do not try to change my mind based on this ancient idea that women should reproduce for their husbands. Some of us just want to have a good career that may involve travel and research, and cannot be bogged down by having children. They just aren't for me, and don't fit my proposed lifestyle. This is when people call me "selfish" that I don't want to reproduce and "share my life" with kids, and I usually tell them to fuck off. There's tons of wonderful parents in this world. I just can't see myself being one of them.
I have, however, resigned to the fact that I will be that "awesome crazy aunt."
Quote from: Suu on August 24, 2013, 07:43:37 PM
I never hated my childhood. I had a good one. I hated parts of it DURING the matter, but that was because I was an overdramatic teenager. I just have had no real desire to have children since I was about...7-8? I decided pretty early on.
What I also can't stand are the people who constantly question my motives for not wanting kids. Nigel is not doing this, she already said some people just don't want them, but when I have friends and family STILL telling me "Oh, you'll change your mind!" and "It's different when they're your own!" or "Don't you want a kid to carry on your husband/boyfriend's last name?" I just think that's fucking petty a hell. Do not try to change my mind based on this ancient idea that women should reproduce for their husbands. Some of us just want to have a good career that may involve travel and research, and cannot be bogged down by having children. They just aren't for me, and don't fit my proposed lifestyle. This is when people call me "selfish" that I don't want to reproduce and "share my life" with kids, and I usually tell them to fuck off. There's tons of wonderful parents in this world. I just can't see myself being one of them.
I have, however, resigned to the fact that I will be that "awesome crazy aunt."
Awwww :) you'd be a great crazy aunt!
Quote from: Suu on August 24, 2013, 07:43:37 PM
I never hated my childhood. I had a good one. I hated parts of it DURING the matter, but that was because I was an overdramatic teenager. I just have had no real desire to have children since I was about...7-8? I decided pretty early on.
What I also can't stand are the people who constantly question my motives for not wanting kids. Nigel is not doing this, she already said some people just don't want them, but when I have friends and family STILL telling me "Oh, you'll change your mind!" and "It's different when they're your own!" or "Don't you want a kid to carry on your husband/boyfriend's last name?" I just think that's fucking petty a hell. Do not try to change my mind based on this ancient idea that women should reproduce for their husbands. Some of us just want to have a good career that may involve travel and research, and cannot be bogged down by having children. They just aren't for me, and don't fit my proposed lifestyle. This is when people call me "selfish" that I don't want to reproduce and "share my life" with kids, and I usually tell them to fuck off. There's tons of wonderful parents in this world. I just can't see myself being one of them.
I have, however, resigned to the fact that I will be that "awesome crazy aunt."
I hate that sort of thing. It would be even more selfish to have children knowing that it's not a good idea for the child.
Quote from: Aloha Ackbar on August 24, 2013, 08:00:35 PM
Quote from: Suu on August 24, 2013, 07:43:37 PM
I never hated my childhood. I had a good one. I hated parts of it DURING the matter, but that was because I was an overdramatic teenager. I just have had no real desire to have children since I was about...7-8? I decided pretty early on.
What I also can't stand are the people who constantly question my motives for not wanting kids. Nigel is not doing this, she already said some people just don't want them, but when I have friends and family STILL telling me "Oh, you'll change your mind!" and "It's different when they're your own!" or "Don't you want a kid to carry on your husband/boyfriend's last name?" I just think that's fucking petty a hell. Do not try to change my mind based on this ancient idea that women should reproduce for their husbands. Some of us just want to have a good career that may involve travel and research, and cannot be bogged down by having children. They just aren't for me, and don't fit my proposed lifestyle. This is when people call me "selfish" that I don't want to reproduce and "share my life" with kids, and I usually tell them to fuck off. There's tons of wonderful parents in this world. I just can't see myself being one of them.
I have, however, resigned to the fact that I will be that "awesome crazy aunt."
I hate that sort of thing. It would be even more selfish to have children knowing that it's not a good idea for the child.
My mom told me YEARS ago that not everyone should be parents, and it was okay for me to not want any. I'm 31, my brother is 28, and my sister is 25, and my parents still have no grandchildren. They are perfectly happy with this, despite pressure from my surviving grandmother that they should be pushing for it.
Pushing for your own kids to have kids for the sake of earning a title? No way. It'll happen when it happens. And if it happens while Gramma is alive, then she's a Great Grandmother, if not, well, shit happens.
Quote from: Suu on August 24, 2013, 07:43:37 PM
I never hated my childhood. I had a good one. I hated parts of it DURING the matter, but that was because I was an overdramatic teenager. I just have had no real desire to have children since I was about...7-8? I decided pretty early on.
What I also can't stand are the people who constantly question my motives for not wanting kids. Nigel is not doing this, she already said some people just don't want them, but when I have friends and family STILL telling me "Oh, you'll change your mind!" and "It's different when they're your own!" or "Don't you want a kid to carry on your husband/boyfriend's last name?" I just think that's fucking petty a hell. Do not try to change my mind based on this ancient idea that women should reproduce for their husbands. Some of us just want to have a good career that may involve travel and research, and cannot be bogged down by having children. They just aren't for me, and don't fit my proposed lifestyle. This is when people call me "selfish" that I don't want to reproduce and "share my life" with kids, and I usually tell them to fuck off. There's tons of wonderful parents in this world. I just can't see myself being one of them.
I have, however, resigned to the fact that I will be that "awesome crazy aunt."
Not to bring up a sore point, but when I first found PD I thought you were trying to conceive, but gave up after a rash of miscarriages? :?
Am I thinking of someone else?
Quote from: FOCUS GROUP RAGEMONKEY OF HATE HATE HATE on August 24, 2013, 09:01:24 PM
Quote from: Suu on August 24, 2013, 07:43:37 PM
I never hated my childhood. I had a good one. I hated parts of it DURING the matter, but that was because I was an overdramatic teenager. I just have had no real desire to have children since I was about...7-8? I decided pretty early on.
What I also can't stand are the people who constantly question my motives for not wanting kids. Nigel is not doing this, she already said some people just don't want them, but when I have friends and family STILL telling me "Oh, you'll change your mind!" and "It's different when they're your own!" or "Don't you want a kid to carry on your husband/boyfriend's last name?" I just think that's fucking petty a hell. Do not try to change my mind based on this ancient idea that women should reproduce for their husbands. Some of us just want to have a good career that may involve travel and research, and cannot be bogged down by having children. They just aren't for me, and don't fit my proposed lifestyle. This is when people call me "selfish" that I don't want to reproduce and "share my life" with kids, and I usually tell them to fuck off. There's tons of wonderful parents in this world. I just can't see myself being one of them.
I have, however, resigned to the fact that I will be that "awesome crazy aunt."
Not to bring up a sore point, but when I first found PD I thought you were trying to conceive, but gave up after a rash of miscarriages? :?
I did miscarry twice, but they were both early term and from unplanned pregnancies due to my pill at the time failing, and caused a great deal of issues with my marriage at the time because he thought I was doing it on purpose (trust me ladies, you don't want to do this "on purpose".)
I've never actually
tried to conceive, so that may be a confusion with someone else.
Quote from: Suu on August 24, 2013, 09:09:33 PM
Quote from: FOCUS GROUP RAGEMONKEY OF HATE HATE HATE on August 24, 2013, 09:01:24 PM
Quote from: Suu on August 24, 2013, 07:43:37 PM
I never hated my childhood. I had a good one. I hated parts of it DURING the matter, but that was because I was an overdramatic teenager. I just have had no real desire to have children since I was about...7-8? I decided pretty early on.
What I also can't stand are the people who constantly question my motives for not wanting kids. Nigel is not doing this, she already said some people just don't want them, but when I have friends and family STILL telling me "Oh, you'll change your mind!" and "It's different when they're your own!" or "Don't you want a kid to carry on your husband/boyfriend's last name?" I just think that's fucking petty a hell. Do not try to change my mind based on this ancient idea that women should reproduce for their husbands. Some of us just want to have a good career that may involve travel and research, and cannot be bogged down by having children. They just aren't for me, and don't fit my proposed lifestyle. This is when people call me "selfish" that I don't want to reproduce and "share my life" with kids, and I usually tell them to fuck off. There's tons of wonderful parents in this world. I just can't see myself being one of them.
I have, however, resigned to the fact that I will be that "awesome crazy aunt."
Not to bring up a sore point, but when I first found PD I thought you were trying to conceive, but gave up after a rash of miscarriages? :?
I did miscarry twice, but they were both early term and from unplanned pregnancies due to my pill at the time failing, and caused a great deal of issues with my marriage at the time because he thought I was doing it on purpose (trust me ladies, you don't want to do this "on purpose".)
I've never actually tried to conceive, so that may be a confusion with someone else.
Ahhh gotcha
Getting back to the OP, I think you ARE onto something, Nigel. I noticed something weird about people who actively loathe cats (not apathy, or mild dislike, or people who prefer dogs, but the people who are always yammering about how they "CAN'T STAND fucking cats") - IME, they don't seem to like people they can't control, either. I've always wondered if nonsensical strong aversions in general point to something else, and I think the child angle is definitely worth looking into.
Quote from: stelz on August 24, 2013, 09:42:49 PM
Getting back to the OP, I think you ARE onto something, Nigel. I noticed something weird about people who actively loathe cats (not apathy, or mild dislike, or people who prefer dogs, but the people who are always yammering about how they "CAN'T STAND fucking cats") - IME, they don't seem to like people they can't control, either. I've always wondered if nonsensical strong aversions in general point to something else, and I think the child angle is definitely worth looking into.
There's got to be something else going on. I mean, sure, in a small percentage of cases it could simply be a random, irrational phobia (but most phobias have a rational root) but in general it has to be indicative of some other pathology.
I don't get hating cats, either. I sometimes say I don't like cate, but what I really mean by that is that I would rather not have pet cats because their litterboxes are gross and they pee on things. As individual living creatures, though, I don't hold anything against them, and I like animals in general.
There are people who will kill cats if they have a chance. That's fucking weird.
I really enjoyed being a kid, to the point where a significant part of my teenage blargh was related to the awareness that I was leaving that space and desperately wanting to hold on anyway. As would be expected based on the OP theory, I think kids are awesome and have trouble with teenagers.
I like my kids. Other people's kids annoy the shit out of me. Not because I hate them. In fact when I think of "children" I think of innocence, potential, the future, probably all the general things that children represent. There's nothing more upsetting to me emotionally than a person who harms children physically or emotionally. There's nothing I've ever done in my life that I'm more ashamed of than the times when I lose my patience and say something mean to my kids. And I tend to count every child I see in that same sort of "hands off these small people, asshole" category. But they still annoy the shit out of me, mostly because they are raised by idiots who don't know how to raise a child without instilling their own prejudices into them.
I have no idea what (if anything) this has to do with my own childhood. I don't actually remember a whole lot of the time I spent being a child. I don't know if this is normal or not, but my memory of that time is limited to a number of specific self-contained events and circumstances years apart and not too numerous to count on my fingers.
I don't mind kids, actually quite enjoy some of them, just like with adults you get good ones and shitty ones but, for the most part, they're fun little people. But babies...
I don't mind admitting. Babies creep me the fuck out. No shit, they're fucking weird and creepy and like little fucking aliens or something. I find it hard to even associate them with being human at times. I mean them no harm but please, keep them the fuck away from me until they can at least walk and, preferably, talk a little.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on August 26, 2013, 08:07:03 AM
I don't mind kids, actually quite enjoy some of them, just like with adults you get good ones and shitty ones but, for the most part, they're fun little people. But babies...
I don't mind admitting. Babies creep me the fuck out. No shit, they're fucking weird and creepy and like little fucking aliens or something. I find it hard to even associate them with being human at times. I mean them no harm but please, keep them the fuck away from me until they can at least walk and, preferably, talk a little.
Babies are intimidating. They're small, delicate, and tend to look like Winston Churchill for the first couple of months. I will openly admit to having a fear of holding babies. AND THEY BLOW BOOGER BUBBLES OUT OF THEIR NOSES!
Babies are scary. And also, not very entertaining. Nonetheless, I can spend hours holding and staring at them, and sniffing their heads and kissing their LITTLE FEET OMG
But that's largely because I've had three of my own and they make my hormones go.
I think it's very normal for people who have not had children or spent much time around them to be pretty intimidated by babies.
Babies aren't entertaining? Really? My kids were both hilariously cute when they were babies.
Babies under three months aren't really people. Once they can start to interact it gets better.
Obviously, doing what I do, I like children. My own, of course, are awesome, but I've always liked children and from a very early nage knew I would want to have children and a family. And for me, children are reminders of the happy, silly joy of "Nonsense as Salvation".
One of my goals as a parent is to help provide them a life that protects that as long as possible.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on August 26, 2013, 02:17:11 PM
Babies under three months aren't really people. Once they can start to interact it gets better.
I've heard sentiments like this before and in my opinion it's kind of a fucked-up thing to say, because it's basically the position that people who are unable to interact aren't really people. I mean, think about it.
Quote from: Surprise Happy Endings Whether You Want Them Or Not on August 26, 2013, 02:49:44 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on August 26, 2013, 02:17:11 PM
Babies under three months aren't really people. Once they can start to interact it gets better.
I've heard sentiments like this before and in my opinion it's kind of a fucked-up thing to say, because it's basically the position that people who are unable to interact aren't really people. I mean, think about it.
I can see where you're coming from, and I don't mean that people who are in a "locked in" type scenario aren't people or anything like that, but I think someone who's in a persistent vegetative state isn't really a person anymore, either. Which, in my head, is a separate thing from being human, for some reason... and this is uncomfortable thinking about, so I should probably spend some time sitting in it.
I dunno, I don't hate babies but I can really only enjoy them on the same level as a bunny or something. Spending time with a kid or a toddler that's still very much not an adult but is able to interact and think interesting thoughts is a whole different thing and in my mind way better.
According to the logic you seem to be using, if you took Stephen Hawking's machines away he wouldn't really be a person anymore. That may not be what you're trying to say.
Babies aren't in a vegetative state, their inputs are simply completely disorganized and they have not yet learned how to interpret stimuli into making sense.
It is understandable that you don't find infants as enjoyable to interact with... they really aren't, in my opinion, as fun as older kids... but I do really object to what seems to still be a fairly widespread idea that they aren't really people because they can't communicate.
I was thinking about Hawking specifically when I was trying to put together a response. I think the point in my head was that he can think organized thoughts, he has a sense of self and desires and fantasies that are more complex than simple comfort/discomfort. Babies in those very early months aren't there yet, and that distinction of complex thoughts and sense of self is where my head puts that line between "person" and "not person."
This bias may be somewhat influenced by my experience with post-partum with the first kid, but even with the second one where the bonding went well right away he was still a baby-blob before transforming into a baby-person.
Do people who have had strokes cease to be people, until they recover, at which point they become people again? I just don't think it's a valid distinction. I would also argue that newborns do have a sense of self; in fact, it is all they do have, although they are incapable of articulating that. What they lack is a sense that the rest of the world is not their self.
I will concede the point that it's offensive. I don't think it's something I'll be able to shift at all, though.
Fair enough.
Both of my kids had very distinct and noticeable personalities as babies. They are much more than "baby-blobs".
I've seen some pretty damn animated newborns.
I'm also going to out and fucking say it: Newborns are not cute. They look positively alien. Until they develop more and get out of the fryer chicken/Winston Churchill phase, I have a really hard time just saying, "Oh she's beautiful!/He's handsome!" when there's no real discerning features yet.
I don't like babies at all.
They make me uncomfortable and cringy.
A friend of mine has a 1 yr old or something and though she's really cute, still makes me nervous.
I didn't even know what to do with mine. I'm kind of glad on the inside that he's grown up now.
Kind of a shit thing to say but... fuck it.
babies are cool, I'm not a person that wants kids but the OMG INFO OVERLOAD face they make is a beautiful and wondrous thing. They are very boring past that, and get much much cooler as they get to the smiling and sitting up phase, and it gets more awesome after that. Holding babies intimidates me for fear of doing it wrong and injuring a kid but they do love a large boobed person and apparently my chest has a calming effect on infants. I get more comfortable once they can support their own head and it's stopped being all soft and stuff, and once they start talking they crack me up. (my friend Jenny's babba is 2 and cute, blonde and actually quite self assured and funny.)
the loud volumes they emit like the screeching is bothersome, but I don't begrudge babies and toddlers crying at all because they can't tell you what is wrong yet. If I had to sit in my own waste and need someone else to sort that out for me, to rely on someone to feed me, make me comfy and unable to use words to pinpoint my needs I'd be fucking cranky too.
teenagers and screeching older kids bug me, but not as much as the adults at functions whose kids run around and the hosts that failed to make some way of keeping me from tripping over the (and i say this affectionately)noisy little bastards by keeping them amused.
Quote from: Surprise Happy Endings Whether You Want Them Or Not on August 23, 2013, 10:47:02 PM
It has been stewing in the back of my brain for some time now that there is something interesting going on with people who dislike children. I'm not talking about people who are simply uncomfortable with kids, or don't know how to handle them, or who don't want kids of their own. I'm talking about people who express an arbitrary contempt and/or aversion towards all people below the age at which they are able to have articulate adult conversations.(1)
I wonder if it has something to do with self-loathing, with hating their own child selves, rooted in a lack of nurturing, love, and respect shown to them by adult figures in their lives; a sort of self-defensive move.(2) Perhaps their child-selves felt rejected, and to ease their cognitive dissonance and preserve a sense of worth, they unconsciously adapted by forming a belief that it is not that they were rejected because they, individually, were unlovable, but because children are not worth loving.(3) Almost unvaryingly, these same people fail to express liking, compassion, or respect for their own child-selves.(4)
I can't seem to find any research on this, wondering if it's something I should explore at some point.
Strangely, I've been considering something similar as well. Disclaimer - I neither like, trust or want children. The following is an attempt to explain some of that.
1 - I have a strong aversion to younger children, particularly on the basis that I know I will probably not be able to communicate effectively with them. I lack the patience. As frustration builds on both sides, I can't help but blame myself (I'm the adult) for both of our failings. I'm at fault because I can't make myself understood. While I consciously know they are not at fault for being unable to articulate things, I still struggle to maintain my veener of calm. I've probably taken the avoidance role in part to avoid upsetting children and their associated parents.
Another aspect of this, is that I have no idea what an appropriate age is for information. Obviously discussing dildos with a 5 year old is not cool, but is it OK to talk about politics with an 8 year old? How about Scientology with a 9 year old (One of the few conversations I recall going well, the kids was pretty advanced and seemed to get that it was insane). I don't want to "talk down" to kids (more on that shortly) so as a result I end up engaging them in "adult" topics and it goes badly, mostly.
2 - As a child I was made very aware of the ages where my opinion would actually matter. These were 12,15,16,18 and 21. While these ages carried several legal responsibilities (or could, if inclined) the treatment you got was largely based solely on your physical age. This caused numerous problems throughout my younger years where I was interested in "more mature" subjects and activities and restricted from enjoying them based solely on my age. This probably ties into my first point to a degree as it constantly infuriated me having to explain simple wants that are then denied based around my age. This became more frustrating as things were magically permitted in a matter of weeks or months due to a new date of the calendar. My disdain for this practice has actually become pretty severe. I can't recall the last birthday I celebrated, I suspect it was my 18th.
3 - This is where I start to struggle. I do not have a favourable view of my child-self. Invariably it's easier to recall negative memories rather than positive ones. There is some dissonance here because I am quite aware that my childhood was hardly deprived and I certainly support and nurturing. What I suspect is more the problem here is that the support I wanted was not the support I got. I'd suspect this to be in part from my inability to communicate and partly from "Adults know what is best" mindset. It's tricky to judge this in hindsight.
4- When considering my childhood self, I can fairly safely say I neither liked or respected myself. As I've aged, I still struggle to have much compassion for me. I was quite aware of childhood being a transitory process and tried to speed it up as much as possible. It frequently felt like all the GOOD SHIT was just another X months away so there was more time trapped waiting than doing. I can't consider that in a good light. I'm also quite concious of how much time I WASTED as a child. Literally wasted. I consider that a minor positive however as I'm considerably more motivated to do shit today.
Additionally, there are constant questions and assumptions regarding children and Junkenwife. These can and do come from immediate family to total fucking strangers. This seems to have put me into something of a negative reinforcement loop as I've noticed my replies getting more blunt over the years.
I hope there's something in that that's useful, I'd be interested to see what conclusions you come to.
I had a good childhood, in terms of parents and privilege. The social scene was pretty generally shitty, but nowhere close to "fearing for my life and/or grevious bodily harm". So: didn't hate my childhood.
However, I've noticed this topic has made me uncomfortable. So, I thought about it. Preliminary considerations:
I don't like humans (people) who bother me. This includes:
-People who scream because they're hungry.
-People who scream because they're in an unfamiliar environment.
-People who scream when they're on an airplane and the air pressure changes.
-People who scream in a quiet restaurant*.
etc.
I don't like humans who interrupt me when I'm concentrating on something simply because they're bored.
I don't like humans who wander out into traffic with no consideration of the consequences, especially when its in front of my car.
I'm not saying it's only kids who do this, mind you, and I've tried to make sure I haven't said that.
Yes, I know this seems very self-centered and selfish. But I didn't say I was trying to present myself in the best light, I'm trying to figure out my discomfort.
In addition:
-I don't like people who feel they deserve special consideration or advantage, simply because of who they are or what they've done with their bodies.
-I don't like people who single-mindedly obsess about a subject that only affects them personally, with no regard to whether their peer group is also interested.
-I don't like people who feel that my behavior must change because they don't approve of it when certain other people are within earshot/sightline.
Again, I'm not saying it's only parents who do this, nor am I saying all parents do this. I just don't really like those kinds of people.
Finally, to put this in perspective, only a few people I know personally have had children, and I haven't spend much time in the homes of those that have. This would skew my experience of children towards the above scenarios (i.e. bothering me).
Look, I know that the above makes me out to be a dick. And I'll probably get a lot of shit from people who have been parents. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying this is my point of view.
SOMEONE TAKE THAT GOOD REVEREND OUTSIDE ALREADY!
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 27, 2013, 04:20:54 PM
SOMEONE TAKE THAT GOOD REVEREND OUTSIDE ALREADY!
YES. SOMEONE
DO.
TGRR,
Knows they knew the risks when they took the job.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 27, 2013, 03:51:15 PM
I had a good childhood, in terms of parents and privilege. The social scene was pretty generally shitty, but nowhere close to "fearing for my life and/or grevious bodily harm". So: didn't hate my childhood.
However, I've noticed this topic has made me uncomfortable. So, I thought about it. Preliminary considerations:
I don't like humans (people) who bother me. This includes:
-People who scream because they're hungry.
-People who scream because they're in an unfamiliar environment.
-People who scream when they're on an airplane and the air pressure changes.
-People who scream in a quiet restaurant*.
etc.
I don't like humans who interrupt me when I'm concentrating on something simply because they're bored.
I don't like humans who wander out into traffic with no consideration of the consequences, especially when its in front of my car.
I'm not saying it's only kids who do this, mind you, and I've tried to make sure I haven't said that.
Yes, I know this seems very self-centered and selfish. But I didn't say I was trying to present myself in the best light, I'm trying to figure out my discomfort.
In addition:
-I don't like people who feel they deserve special consideration or advantage, simply because of who they are or what they've done with their bodies.
-I don't like people who single-mindedly obsess about a subject that only affects them personally, with no regard to whether their peer group is also interested.
-I don't like people who feel that my behavior must change because they don't approve of it when certain other people are within earshot/sightline.
Again, I'm not saying it's only parents who do this, nor am I saying all parents do this. I just don't really like those kinds of people.
Finally, to put this in perspective, only a few people I know personally have had children, and I haven't spend much time in the homes of those that have. This would skew my experience of children towards the above scenarios (i.e. bothering me).
Look, I know that the above makes me out to be a dick. And I'll probably get a lot of shit from people who have been parents. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying this is my point of view.
If it's any consolation, I don't think that makes you look like a dick. It makes children look like dicks. Which is probably true. I fucking hate when they get all interrupty and in my face with their meaningless bullshit. I figure completely ignoring them is teaching them a valuable life lesson. Even if their parents take offence to the fact that I just blanked their little darling's attempt to interrupt me in the middle of saying something. That's cool. I can ignore the parents bitching and whining, too. I'm not ageist. I can be an ignorant bastard to anyone.
Having raised two sprogs of my own, my personal peeves are:
1. People who give parents shit about their kid crying on an airplane (they can't take the kid outside, and they can't do shit about the pressure changes).
2. People who let their kids run wild in stores, etc, and/or allow the kid to make a scene when the kid doesn't get the impulse item of their choice at the register.
3. People who try to outlaw any fun thing a kid might want to do (rollerblade, skateboard, etc), simply on account of DAMN KIDS.
4. People who get offended when a woman breast feeds. It's biology, you stupid bastards, deal with it. And NO, LMNO, YOU DO NOT GET TO ASK FOR A SAMPLE.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on August 27, 2013, 04:24:17 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on August 27, 2013, 03:51:15 PM
I had a good childhood, in terms of parents and privilege. The social scene was pretty generally shitty, but nowhere close to "fearing for my life and/or grevious bodily harm". So: didn't hate my childhood.
However, I've noticed this topic has made me uncomfortable. So, I thought about it. Preliminary considerations:
I don't like humans (people) who bother me. This includes:
-People who scream because they're hungry.
-People who scream because they're in an unfamiliar environment.
-People who scream when they're on an airplane and the air pressure changes.
-People who scream in a quiet restaurant*.
etc.
I don't like humans who interrupt me when I'm concentrating on something simply because they're bored.
I don't like humans who wander out into traffic with no consideration of the consequences, especially when its in front of my car.
I'm not saying it's only kids who do this, mind you, and I've tried to make sure I haven't said that.
Yes, I know this seems very self-centered and selfish. But I didn't say I was trying to present myself in the best light, I'm trying to figure out my discomfort.
In addition:
-I don't like people who feel they deserve special consideration or advantage, simply because of who they are or what they've done with their bodies.
-I don't like people who single-mindedly obsess about a subject that only affects them personally, with no regard to whether their peer group is also interested.
-I don't like people who feel that my behavior must change because they don't approve of it when certain other people are within earshot/sightline.
Again, I'm not saying it's only parents who do this, nor am I saying all parents do this. I just don't really like those kinds of people.
Finally, to put this in perspective, only a few people I know personally have had children, and I haven't spend much time in the homes of those that have. This would skew my experience of children towards the above scenarios (i.e. bothering me).
Look, I know that the above makes me out to be a dick. And I'll probably get a lot of shit from people who have been parents. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying this is my point of view.
If it's any consolation, I don't think that makes you look like a dick. It makes children look like dicks. Which is probably true. I fucking hate when they get all interrupty and in my face with their meaningless bullshit. I figure completely ignoring them is teaching them a valuable life lesson. Even if their parents take offence to the fact that I just blanked their little darling's attempt to interrupt me in the middle of saying something. That's cool. I can ignore the parents bitching and whining, too. I'm not ageist. I can be an ignorant bastard to anyone.
I'd have to agree with P3nt here. I'd take it a little further though.
Minor change to the above -
It makes people look like dicks. Which is probably true. I fucking hate when they get all interrupty and in my face with their meaningless bullshit. Some children take this behaviour and continue though life with it. Which probably explains my aversion to most people.
LMNO's list seems to mainly cover people who are incapable of controlling themselves in a social environment where these behaviours could/will affect/annoy other people. I've known a few parents that shit themselves blue because they were asked to leave/not allowed into a quiet romantic restaurant with their shrieking spawn. Needless to say, they could not understand why this is and felt it to be gross discrimination. I feel quite the opposite in most of these situations.
I think it may be highlighted in behaviours to children more as there is a social expectation of treating kids differently and allowing them to get away with shit that would make you punch an adult that did the same thing. I'd suspect that some parents encourage and validate these behaviours rather than correcting them. Looking at YOU indigo parents.
I try to treat everyone in a similar way. This breaks down with kids because of the inherent protection and "Special snowflake" that follows them. In short, I think I'm struggling with interacting with kids partly because I'm treating them as equal to myself and then getting frustrated that they're not functioning at remotely the same level.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 27, 2013, 04:30:13 PM
Having raised two sprogs of my own, my personal peeves are:
1. People who give parents shit about their kid crying on an airplane (they can't take the kid outside, and they can't do shit about the pressure changes).
2. People who let their kids run wild in stores, etc, and/or allow the kid to make a scene when the kid doesn't get the impulse item of their choice at the register.
3. People who try to outlaw any fun thing a kid might want to do (rollerblade, skateboard, etc), simply on account of DAMN KIDS.
4. People who get offended when a woman breast feeds. It's biology, you stupid bastards, deal with it. And NO, LMNO, YOU DO NOT GET TO ASK FOR A SAMPLE.
Interesting.
1- Reasonable. I can't say I've ever done this, though I have had a number of shitty flights due to this exact problem. Offering gin tends to offend the parent. Just a handy tip.
2- Here I would advocate my patented F.A.T.E (Five Across The Eyes) solution. Observation of parents indicates this to be a good method of silencing a child.
3 - This, I don't get at all. I suspect it may be a generational thing added with the modern drive to make everything ultra safe. There's probably something in the level of potential danger/harm kids are exposed to and behaviours in later life. I can't imagine many kids raised in bubbles about to take up free climbing or somesuch.
4 - I've never understood this. I understand even less that it generally comes from straight males. It's called a free show you ungrateful bastards. If its really that bad have you tried not looking?
Tangents. Tangents everywhere with no real contribution.
I do recognize that some people have only been on this planet a few years and haven't figured stuff out yet, and with those people, I understand why they might be behaving that way. However, I still don't really like it.
Babies on a plane? Not the parents' fault. I still don't like hearing it, though.
Sort of like my feelings about Libertarians, I am fascinated by people who want the benefits of living in a society, but resent the less-than-totally-pleasurable-to-them aspects of living in a society. It seems, not so much dickish, as (perhaps ironically) just very immature when people actively resent the (normally well-controlled, nobody likes a brat) behaviors of children (or old people, or gay people, or people in love, or deaf people, or retarded people) in communal spaces; reminiscent of the me-me-me stage of childhood, when kids haven't yet realized that they are not actually the most important people in the world.
I'll need to think about this, and figure out whether it's consistent or inconsistent with my hypothesis.
Like I said, it makes me sound self-centered and selfish.
I actually am pretty sure that the real reason so many straight men have a problem with breastfeeding in public is because it is a very distinctly unsexy context for breasts. They don't object to it because it's sexy, they object to it because it emphatically desexualizes a body part that they fetishize.
Quote from: Junkenstein on August 27, 2013, 04:52:38 PM
3 - This, I don't get at all. I suspect it may be a generational thing added with the modern drive to make everything ultra safe. There's probably something in the level of potential danger/harm kids are exposed to and behaviours in later life. I can't imagine many kids raised in bubbles about to take up free climbing or somesuch.
No, they do it mostly out of mean-spiritness.
I will say that I don't think that anyone looks favorably upon bad parenting and the products thereof. Including good parents, and their children.
Children are adorable bundles of joy and love, and also copious amounts of barf and poop. This is the biological reality of the matter. Emotionally, children run the entire spectrum from "OMG SO HAPPY" to "Jesus fucking Christ would you please remove that thing." And every individual child is capable of existing at any point on that spectrum at any given moment, because, well, children are humans and that's just how humans are. I find, however, that the emotional reaction to children is more a thing that happens inside the brain of the person who's doing the reacting than it is anything the child is in control of (usually).
It is not the child's fault that parents seem to have lost all bearing in the past few generations on what the fuck it means bring new humans online on this planet. I blame Dr. Spock for starting a trend of know-it-all new-age parenting "gurus" telling people that the way our species has reared its young for eons is somehow inadequate.
Here are a few helpful tips on when to call "Bullshit" when your stupid 500-page book about how to ruin a child's life forever gives you advice:
- Fuck you. Spanking a child is not only legitimate, it is necessary. Have you been around children who have never been spanked? They are holy terrors, and often they rule their parents like some kind of a god damn demented Baby Hitler with a bottle full of Hate Juice. SPANK. YOUR. CHILD.
- Do not use your "Mommy loves you" voice when reprimanding your child. It is important that the child understands where she has crossed a line, and that consequences will bee SRSBSNS if she does not immediately withdraw her errant behavior.
- Do not bribe your fucking children with toys or candy. Holy mother of fuck, if I could punch a person every time I saw them pleading with their child to "PLEASE BE GOOD, I'LL PROMISE TO BUY YOU SOME RIDICULOUS THING MADE BY SLAVE CHILDREN IF YOU'RE GOOD!" I would have a lot of broken knuckles and I'd be much more at peace with the universe. Are you trying to reinforce the idiotic notion that simply doing what is expected of civilized people is somehow grounds for a bonus? No wonder the fucks I deal with at the office seem to think making approximately 1,000x more per hour than the average human is somehow "not enough."
- DO listen to your child when she has something to say -- even if your wrinkled, cynical, jaded old brain thinks it is trite or unimportant. In fact, listen especially hard in those cases, because your child is trying to convey to you the fucking meaning of life, you bitter old senior citizen.
- DO comfort your child when she is crying. Fuck this "let them cry it out" bollocks. Do you want them to begin life feeling like they are alone and there's no one around who gives a shit? Really? They'll grow up voting Republican that way. Think twice.
I mostly agree with V3X.
Of course, it is also nearly impossible to tell the difference, from a stranger's perspective, between a child who is behaving badly because their parents never enforce boundaries and good behavior, and a child who is behaving badly because they have a developmental disorder or are coming down with something or some other factor outside of the parents' control.
Quote from: V3X on August 27, 2013, 05:04:37 PM
Children are adorable bundles of joy and love, and also copious amounts of barf and poop. This is the biological reality of the matter. Emotionally, children run the entire spectrum from "OMG SO HAPPY" to "Jesus fucking Christ would you please remove that thing." And every individual child is capable of existing at any point on that spectrum at any given moment, because, well, children are humans and that's just how humans are. I find, however, that the emotional reaction to children is more a thing that happens inside the brain of the person who's doing the reacting than it is anything the child is in control of (usually).
It is not the child's fault that parents seem to have lost all bearing in the past few generations on what the fuck it means bring new humans online on this planet. I blame Dr. Spock for starting a trend of know-it-all new-age parenting "gurus" telling people that the way our species has reared its young for eons is somehow inadequate.
Here are a few helpful tips on when to call "Bullshit" when your stupid 500-page book about how to ruin a child's life forever gives you advice:
- Fuck you. Spanking a child is not only legitimate, it is necessary. Have you been around children who have never been spanked? They are holy terrors, and often they rule their parents like some kind of a god damn demented Baby Hitler with a bottle full of Hate Juice. SPANK. YOUR. CHILD.
- Do not use your "Mommy loves you" voice when reprimanding your child. It is important that the child understands where she has crossed a line, and that consequences will bee SRSBSNS if she does not immediately withdraw her errant behavior.
- Do not bribe your fucking children with toys or candy. Holy mother of fuck, if I could punch a person every time I saw them pleading with their child to "PLEASE BE GOOD, I'LL PROMISE TO BUY YOU SOME RIDICULOUS THING MADE BY SLAVE CHILDREN IF YOU'RE GOOD!" I would have a lot of broken knuckles and I'd be much more at peace with the universe. Are you trying to reinforce the idiotic notion that simply doing what is expected of civilized people is somehow grounds for a bonus? No wonder the fucks I deal with at the office seem to think making approximately 1,000x more per hour than the average human is somehow "not enough."
- DO listen to your child when she has something to say -- even if your wrinkled, cynical, jaded old brain thinks it is trite or unimportant. In fact, listen especially hard in those cases, because your child is trying to convey to you the fucking meaning of life, you bitter old senior citizen.
- DO comfort your child when she is crying. Fuck this "let them cry it out" bollocks. Do you want them to begin life feeling like they are alone and there's no one around who gives a shit? Really? They'll grow up voting Republican that way. Think twice.
THIS. END OF THREAD.
Although I will say that I don't think spanking is vital. It can be useful for some children, but not at all for others.
Quote from: Surprise Happy Endings Whether You Want Them Or Not on August 27, 2013, 05:07:17 PM
Of course, it is also nearly impossible to tell the difference, from a stranger's perspective, between a child who is behaving badly because their parents never enforce boundaries and good behavior, and a child who is behaving badly because they have a developmental disorder or are coming down with something or some other factor outside of the parents' control.
It's the Fundamental Attribution Error, but for kids.
Quote from: Surprise Happy Endings Whether You Want Them Or Not on August 27, 2013, 05:07:17 PM
Of course, it is also nearly impossible to tell the difference, from a stranger's perspective, between a child who is behaving badly because their parents never enforce boundaries and good behavior, and a child who is behaving badly because they have a developmental disorder or are coming down with something or some other factor outside of the parents' control.
Agreed. Unless you can see the
parents in action...Which might not be a sure indicator, but can let you make a reasonably accurate guess.
Big thing is, the easiest thing in the world is SCREWING A KID UP. It isn't society. It isn't vaccinations or violent video games or television. It's parenting.
Now, I think parenting is, more or less, BETTER than it was two generations ago, despite the media frenzy, etc...And I say this because children and young adults are far more civilized now than they were when P3NT and Nigel and I were little hoodlums.
Quote from: Surprise Happy Endings Whether You Want Them Or Not on August 27, 2013, 05:10:10 PM
Although I will say that I don't think spanking is vital. It can be useful for some children, but not at all for others.
I found it useful from age 1-5.
You can't reason with a 2 year old about a light socket, for example.
After age 5, it serves no purpose, in my personal experience. RESULTS MAY VARY.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 27, 2013, 05:12:27 PM
Quote from: Surprise Happy Endings Whether You Want Them Or Not on August 27, 2013, 05:10:10 PM
Although I will say that I don't think spanking is vital. It can be useful for some children, but not at all for others.
I found it useful from age 1-5.
You can't reason with a 2 year old about a light socket, for example.
After age 5, it serves no purpose, in my personal experience. RESULTS MAY VARY.
Accurate statement. It's useful for those ages, but past that age you're playing with fire -- emotionally and disciplinary. After about 5 years, a child is cognitively mature enough to prepare for, endure, and then disregard a spanking. Especially if that's your only means of correction. I say correction because spanking should never be "punishment." It should be applied quickly and
at the exact moment the infraction takes place. Not "go to your room and dread the next hour until someone comes upstairs to beat you." It's a corrective action, not a punitive one.
"Punishment" should be
much worse than just spanking. It needs to involve the revocation of privileges or luxuries (not food, you Barbarians), with the understanding that they are extras the child has access to only because of good behavior.
I used to be one of those people who hated hearing kids scream in a store. Now i just get a big ass grin because it's not me that has to handle it. Also, I'm just more at ease around them now.
I like it when little kids scream in public places if only because adults don't scream enough.
Quote from: V3X on August 27, 2013, 05:24:54 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 27, 2013, 05:12:27 PM
Quote from: Surprise Happy Endings Whether You Want Them Or Not on August 27, 2013, 05:10:10 PM
Although I will say that I don't think spanking is vital. It can be useful for some children, but not at all for others.
I found it useful from age 1-5.
You can't reason with a 2 year old about a light socket, for example.
After age 5, it serves no purpose, in my personal experience. RESULTS MAY VARY.
Accurate statement. It's useful for those ages, but past that age you're playing with fire -- emotionally and disciplinary. After about 5 years, a child is cognitively mature enough to prepare for, endure, and then disregard a spanking. Especially if that's your only means of correction. I say correction because spanking should never be "punishment." It should be applied quickly and at the exact moment the infraction takes place. Not "go to your room and dread the next hour until someone comes upstairs to beat you." It's a corrective action, not a punitive one.
"Punishment" should be much worse than just spanking. It needs to involve the revocation of privileges or luxuries (not food, you Barbarians), with the understanding that they are extras the child has access to only because of good behavior.
After age 5, if the kid hasn't learned to listen, he/she probably won't. In addition, after age 5, spankings are only humiliation, which is the WORST form of discipline except for
possibly no discipline at all.
Quote from: Alty on August 27, 2013, 05:25:16 PM
I like it when little kids scream in public places if only because adults don't scream enough.
THIS.
Quote from: Surprise Happy Endings Whether You Want Them Or Not on August 27, 2013, 05:10:10 PM
Although I will say that I don't think spanking is vital. It can be useful for some children, but not at all for others.
Kid 1 is doing remarkably well from a discipline standpoint, kid 2 is having serious problems listening to any authority ever no matter the context. I don't know how much of it is gender, birth order, or temperment, but we didn't spank either.
I have the joyous duty of parenting a child who is, in all honesty, about twice as smart as I am. This keeps me on my toes, which is a necessity at this stage of my life. Without this job, I'd probably be grotesquely satisfied with my life. Still, I know that one day, probably sooner than I think, I will run out of knowledge- and aptitude-based authority over him. I dread that day more than I dread dropping dead. I also can't wait for it, because I'll get to find out whether my mad floundering about and many strings of consecutive fuck-ups will outweigh my successes in parenting.
My other child is unfathomably more intelligent than me, as her intelligence is an emotional one. She somehow knows how to be nice to people in a way that they respond to positively. This year at school it took her 2 weeks to turn the class bully into not only her friend, but also into a reasonably decent person. She makes doing the Right Thing look cool. I have no way to describe this, and it is definitely nothing I can take any credit for, so I know it must come from somewhere inside her own little being.
So, in relation to this thread, all I can really say is that anyone who dislikes children must be operating from a set of internal instructions that cannot be translated into my language.
Quote from: V3X on August 27, 2013, 05:39:58 PM
I have the joyous duty of parenting a child who is, in all honesty, about twice as smart as I am.
All children are smarter than their parents. This is why nature gave us "treachery".
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 27, 2013, 05:54:47 PM
Quote from: V3X on August 27, 2013, 05:39:58 PM
I have the joyous duty of parenting a child who is, in all honesty, about twice as smart as I am.
All children are smarter than their parents. This is why nature gave us "treachery".
Nature gave us treachery.
Karma gives us Alzheimer's.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 27, 2013, 04:30:13 PM
Having raised two sprogs of my own, my personal peeves are:
1. People who give parents shit about their kid crying on an airplane (they can't take the kid outside, and they can't do shit about the pressure changes).
2. People who let their kids run wild in stores, etc, and/or allow the kid to make a scene when the kid doesn't get the impulse item of their choice at the register.
3. People who try to outlaw any fun thing a kid might want to do (rollerblade, skateboard, etc), simply on account of DAMN KIDS.
4. People who get offended when a woman breast feeds. It's biology, you stupid bastards, deal with it. And NO, LMNO, YOU DO NOT GET TO ASK FOR A SAMPLE.
On point 2, I had to do that once...just once. Somehow my daughter had gotten it in her head that pitching a fit in the middle of the store would provoke a response (positive or negative, she didn't give a shit...she is her father's daughter). She warned me she was going to do it, "Well what if I start screaming?"
"Go right the fuck ahead," I said...
AND SHE FUCKING DID.
So I'm standing there in the middle of a crowded ass store staring dispassionately at this wailing 3-year-old who was pissed off cause I denied her some trinket she desparately needed to go on living, and all I really had short of dragging her ass out of there (which would have been inconsistent with my cockamamie ideas about parenting), was to say, "wow, you certainly are making quite a scene of yourself right now."
The upside was that shit like that, you only ever have to do once. The downside, dear lord, did I ever want to shrink away and hide.
Quote from: Surprise Happy Endings Whether You Want Them Or Not on August 27, 2013, 07:43:30 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 27, 2013, 05:30:20 PM
Quote from: Alty on August 27, 2013, 05:25:16 PM
I like it when little kids scream in public places if only because adults don't scream enough.
THIS.
Seconded.
...And thirded.
I'm of no use to this hypothesis because I generally like kids more than I like adults--err...I like interacting with kids more than I like interacting with adults. I enjoyed my childhood for the most part, but I grew up more than a little scared of adults. I still get "bad-reads" on adults, the results of which range from simple social paralysis, to full on paranoid delusions. This *never* happens with kids. In fact, at parties and such, if I'm feeling anxious and there are kids there, I'll often slink off with them. For some reason pretending like I'm a robot, acting goofy, kicking a ball around, whatever, seems to make a lot more sense to me, usually, than trying to figure out what the fuck to say to this strange woman who may or may not be subliminally fucking with me.
I'm not sure you can just flip that pathology (whatever the flip-side of that may be) and then just apply it to people who don't like children...but could be something there.
I just want to add to my original statement that I had a very unpleasant time interacting with people all the way up until my pd reg date, for the most part. All i can remember from my peers during childhood os horrible, violent, cruel, etc. I could go on and on about the minute amd various ways people have tormented me.
Being picked on is one thing, being so god damned weird that even the loser kids uses you like a community punching bag is something else.
I have such deep distrust of human beings because they showed me all of their nasty nature all at once, without the filters of "manners" and the societal pressures adulthood amd am awareness of a larger world bring.
Children will torture each other as soon as they have motivation and opporunity, or are jist bored.
And yet, I like kids. So, i dunno, just thought that was somewhat pertinent.
*shrug*
My first memory of dealing with a group of children involved some kid I didnt know kicking sand into my face when I was 4. He was running, stopped and looked at me, and then sent sand flying. Pretty much all of early peer related memories are like that.
But, you know, babies are adorable.
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on August 27, 2013, 11:08:01 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 27, 2013, 04:30:13 PM
Having raised two sprogs of my own, my personal peeves are:
1. People who give parents shit about their kid crying on an airplane (they can't take the kid outside, and they can't do shit about the pressure changes).
2. People who let their kids run wild in stores, etc, and/or allow the kid to make a scene when the kid doesn't get the impulse item of their choice at the register.
3. People who try to outlaw any fun thing a kid might want to do (rollerblade, skateboard, etc), simply on account of DAMN KIDS.
4. People who get offended when a woman breast feeds. It's biology, you stupid bastards, deal with it. And NO, LMNO, YOU DO NOT GET TO ASK FOR A SAMPLE.
On point 2, I had to do that once...just once. Somehow my daughter had gotten it in her head that pitching a fit in the middle of the store would provoke a response (positive or negative, she didn't give a shit...she is her father's daughter). She warned me she was going to do it, "Well what if I start screaming?"
"Go right the fuck ahead," I said...
AND SHE FUCKING DID.
So I'm standing there in the middle of a crowded ass store staring dispassionately at this wailing 3-year-old who was pissed off cause I denied her some trinket she desparately needed to go on living, and all I really had short of dragging her ass out of there (which would have been inconsistent with my cockamamie ideas about parenting), was to say, "wow, you certainly are making quite a scene of yourself right now."
The upside was that shit like that, you only ever have to do once. The downside, dear lord, did I ever want to shrink away and hide.
:lulz: And sometimes what looks, to the uninitiated, like bad parenting, is actually good parenting.
Quote from: NoLeDeMiel on August 27, 2013, 11:47:19 PM
Quote from: Surprise Happy Endings Whether You Want Them Or Not on August 27, 2013, 07:43:30 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on August 27, 2013, 05:30:20 PM
Quote from: Alty on August 27, 2013, 05:25:16 PM
I like it when little kids scream in public places if only because adults don't scream enough.
THIS.
Seconded.
...And thirded.
I'm of no use to this hypothesis because I generally like kids more than I like adults--err...I like interacting with kids more than I like interacting with adults. I enjoyed my childhood for the most part, but I grew up more than a little scared of adults. I still get "bad-reads" on adults, the results of which range from simple social paralysis, to full on paranoid delusions. This *never* happens with kids. In fact, at parties and such, if I'm feeling anxious and there are kids there, I'll often slink off with them. For some reason pretending like I'm a robot, acting goofy, kicking a ball around, whatever, seems to make a lot more sense to me, usually, than trying to figure out what the fuck to say to this strange woman who may or may not be subliminally fucking with me.
I'm not sure you can just flip that pathology (whatever the flip-side of that may be) and then just apply it to people who don't like children...but could be something there.
It makes perfect sense, and I've seen something similar in a lot of people who had good peer relationships and enjoyed their childhood but had a hard time with adults, so yeah, I think it's probably related.
Quote from: Alty on August 27, 2013, 11:59:24 PM
I just want to add to my original statement that I had a very unpleasant time interacting with people all the way up until my pd reg date, for the most part. All i can remember from my peers during childhood os horrible, violent, cruel, etc. I could go on and on about the minute amd various ways people have tormented me.
Being picked on is one thing, being so god damned weird that even the loser kids uses you like a community punching bag is something else.
I have such deep distrust of human beings because they showed me all of their nasty nature all at once, without the filters of "manners" and the societal pressures adulthood amd am awareness of a larger world bring.
Children will torture each other as soon as they have motivation and opporunity, or are jist bored.
And yet, I like kids. So, i dunno, just thought that was somewhat pertinent.
*shrug*
That is pertinent, and interesting.
Just out of curiosity, how did your parents treat you? Did you feel valued by them?
Quote from: Alty on August 28, 2013, 12:02:43 AM
My first memory of dealing with a group of children involved some kid I didnt know kicking sand into my face when I was 4. He was running, stopped and looked at me, and then sent sand flying. Pretty much all of early peer related memories are like that.
But, you know, babies are adorable.
Have you seen the studies on children and violent behavior? Kids start out violent, and get less violent as they get older.
Quote from: Surprise Happy Endings Whether You Want Them Or Not on August 28, 2013, 02:55:20 AM
Quote from: Alty on August 27, 2013, 11:59:24 PM
I just want to add to my original statement that I had a very unpleasant time interacting with people all the way up until my pd reg date, for the most part. All i can remember from my peers during childhood os horrible, violent, cruel, etc. I could go on and on about the minute amd various ways people have tormented me.
Being picked on is one thing, being so god damned weird that even the loser kids uses you like a community punching bag is something else.
I have such deep distrust of human beings because they showed me all of their nasty nature all at once, without the filters of "manners" and the societal pressures adulthood amd am awareness of a larger world bring.
Children will torture each other as soon as they have motivation and opporunity, or are jist bored.
And yet, I like kids. So, i dunno, just thought that was somewhat pertinent.
*shrug*
That is pertinent, and interesting.
Just out of curiosity, how did your parents treat you? Did you feel valued by them?
My mom was good to me, but absent, unsupported, working, and unaware and ill equipped to notice certain things. My dad treated me with less enthusiasm than people hold toward, say, lamps. Lamps serve a purpose, after all.
Quote from: Surprise Happy Endings Whether You Want Them Or Not on August 28, 2013, 02:56:09 AM
Quote from: Alty on August 28, 2013, 12:02:43 AM
My first memory of dealing with a group of children involved some kid I didnt know kicking sand into my face when I was 4. He was running, stopped and looked at me, and then sent sand flying. Pretty much all of early peer related memories are like that.
But, you know, babies are adorable.
Have you seen the studies on children and violent behavior? Kids start out violent, and get less violent as they get older.
I have not, but would have liked to know that info from about the age of 5 on. That would have actually comforted me.
Fortunately, you spags helped pull me out of that horrible spiral of misanthropy, fear, and weak hate toward humans.
Quote from: Alty on August 28, 2013, 03:51:27 AM
Quote from: Surprise Happy Endings Whether You Want Them Or Not on August 28, 2013, 02:55:20 AM
Quote from: Alty on August 27, 2013, 11:59:24 PM
I just want to add to my original statement that I had a very unpleasant time interacting with people all the way up until my pd reg date, for the most part. All i can remember from my peers during childhood os horrible, violent, cruel, etc. I could go on and on about the minute amd various ways people have tormented me.
Being picked on is one thing, being so god damned weird that even the loser kids uses you like a community punching bag is something else.
I have such deep distrust of human beings because they showed me all of their nasty nature all at once, without the filters of "manners" and the societal pressures adulthood amd am awareness of a larger world bring.
Children will torture each other as soon as they have motivation and opporunity, or are jist bored.
And yet, I like kids. So, i dunno, just thought that was somewhat pertinent.
*shrug*
That is pertinent, and interesting.
Just out of curiosity, how did your parents treat you? Did you feel valued by them?
My mom was good to me, but absent, unsupported, working, and unaware and ill equipped to notice certain things. My dad treated me with less enthusiasm than people hold toward, say, lamps. Lamps serve a purpose, after all.
Quote from: Surprise Happy Endings Whether You Want Them Or Not on August 28, 2013, 02:56:09 AM
Quote from: Alty on August 28, 2013, 12:02:43 AM
My first memory of dealing with a group of children involved some kid I didnt know kicking sand into my face when I was 4. He was running, stopped and looked at me, and then sent sand flying. Pretty much all of early peer related memories are like that.
But, you know, babies are adorable.
Have you seen the studies on children and violent behavior? Kids start out violent, and get less violent as they get older.
I have not, but would have liked to know that info from about the age of 5 on. That would have actually comforted me.
Fortunately, you spags helped pull me out of that horrible spiral of misanthropy, fear, and weak hate toward humans.
Interesting!
I was trying to find the studies, but had a hard time because, um, well just imagine what happens when you search any of the conceivable associated keywords. I'll see if maybe it's still in my Dropbox from last term.
That would be cool, thanks.
There are awesome videos of toddler fights. Those fuckers are VICIOUS.