This is going to come out wrong, but if I try to wait til it's right it'll fall out my brain entirely.
What the hell are we supposed to do about the bad shit?
We can't sanctions assholes into not being assholes. We can't diplomacy them into not murdering prisoners, poisoning kids, punishing rape victims, and all that shit. We can't limited missile strike them into respecting human rights. We can't invade them into democracy. We can't protest them out of genocide and sectarian violence.
The fuck do we do about all this shit?
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on September 06, 2013, 11:03:29 PM
This is going to come out wrong, but if I try to wait til it's right it'll fall out my brain entirely.
What the hell are we supposed to do about the bad shit?
We can't sanctions assholes into not being assholes. We can't diplomacy them into not murdering prisoners, poisoning kids, punishing rape victims, and all that shit. We can't limited missile strike them into respecting human rights. We can't invade them into democracy. We can't protest them out of genocide and sectarian violence.
The fuck do we do about all this shit?
Historically speaking?
You kill them.
Utopian speaking?
Create the science where we become immortal on earth.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on September 06, 2013, 11:05:17 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on September 06, 2013, 11:03:29 PM
This is going to come out wrong, but if I try to wait til it's right it'll fall out my brain entirely.
What the hell are we supposed to do about the bad shit?
We can't sanctions assholes into not being assholes. We can't diplomacy them into not murdering prisoners, poisoning kids, punishing rape victims, and all that shit. We can't limited missile strike them into respecting human rights. We can't invade them into democracy. We can't protest them out of genocide and sectarian violence.
The fuck do we do about all this shit?
Historically speaking?
You kill them.
Can't argue with that.
I think there are tools at our disposal, should we wish to use them. Sanctions, shaming, things other than randomly shoving bombs into little girl's birthday parties.
We just don't because greedy motherfuckers.
Hell, where real live problems exist a few bombs would probably be very, very effective. If they were used with surgical precision, as a group effort of humans trying to ensure as little harm to innocents as possible occurs on this little.planet.
But we don't do that.
For the same reason we don't stop fucking up the environment, the mental capacities of our youth, and our own economy as well as the rest of the world's.
Greedy, powerful motherfuckers in charge, apathetic know-nothings reaping the rewards AND BITCHING ABOUT THEM.
Quote from: Alty on September 06, 2013, 11:31:30 PM
I think there are tools at our disposal, should we wish to use them. Sanctions, shaming, things other than randomly shoving bombs into little girl's birthday parties.
We just don't because greedy motherfuckers.
Hell, where real live problems exist a few bombs would probably be very, very effective. If they were used with surgical precision, as a group effort of humans trying to ensure as little harm to innocents as possible occurs on this little.planet.
But we don't do that.
For the same reason we don't stop fucking up the environment, the mental capacities of our youth, and our own economy as well as the rest of the world's.
Greedy, powerful motherfuckers in charge, apathetic know-nothings reaping the rewards AND BITCHING ABOUT THEM.
We sanctioned the
fuck out of North Korea, though, and a lot of other countries that are up to all flavors of no good. And nothing changes, and people complain that "SANCTIONS AREN'T ENOUGH" and then you bomb things and they yell "YOU BLEW UP THAT WEDDING YOU FASCIST IMPERIALIST BASTARDS" and maybe you stop bombing and shit just gets worse and someone blows up
your embassy and they yell "WHY DIDN'T YOU PROTECT US FROM THE BAD GUYS?" or you keep bombing and add troops and they yell "ILLEGAL WARS NO BLOOD FOR OIL" or you just do nothing and everyone dies.
It's complicated.
If you jump on every problem early, you're a psychopath.
If you don't ever jump on a problem, you're a sociopath.
There are no hard and fast rules about when it's time to get involved in someone else's country, or if it's appropriate at all.
I am in favor of taking out the North Korean government via military force.
I am not in favor of taking out the Syrian government via military force.
Honestly, I'm having a lot of problems with Syria because some of the early people involved in that reached out to people I know for help. They were good people, they wanted good things for their country. If they'd gotten more help earlier on, maybe they could have made things better. Now the ones who are left are getting help from shady motherfuckers and a lot of the good folks (and way too fucking many bystanders) are dead and gone. I understand why most of the people I know now don't want anything to do with that mess, and given what's happened in the intervening years I can't say I'm 100% for intervention either, but I can't pretend that I'm not biased against Assad, or that the smarmy fucker doesn't deserve to get his teeth kicked in.
We could stop exploiting people and countries for financial profit. That would be a good place to start.
Quote from: Facemeat on September 07, 2013, 12:35:59 AM
We could stop exploiting people and countries for financial profit. That would be a good place to start.
This. There are so many ways to make the the world function in such a way that these things dont begin.
Then system using sanctions and other tools is broken.
It's like a leper doing brain surgery.
The truly violent and disgusting criminal murdering despots, though they may be who they are because of some mishap of upbringing or genetics, are only able to act on their perverse tendencies to such an atrocious degree because they are in power. And often, they are only in power because someone even more powerful put them there. Their despicable violence is their fault, but it was enabled -- if not planned outright -- by others, usually very far away, who believe the games they play are more important than mere human happiness (or lives).
If five tons of explosives can punish a tyrant after the fact, what could half a ton do to his puppeteers before the fact?
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Thank you for weighing in Cain. That sounds an awful lot like the right answer, even if it's not pleasant.
You are framing "we" as our government. Although the US is nominally a democracy we, as in you and I, don't have much say over what our government does. I think a better question is not what should we, the government, which we, the people don't actually have much control over, do. A better question is what should we, you and I, people without a strong voice in government, do to make things better for ourselves as well as for those poor bastards over in Syria.
And I'm strongly leaning towards Roger's solution of killing them, but them is our government. Clearly protests don't work, letter writing campaigns don't work, petitions don't work, hactivism doesn't work. Maybe targeted assassinations of politicians who vote for complete assbaggery would be a step toward actually taking control of the country.
Unfortunately I don't have the skills or resources to do this sort of thing.
Excellent analysis, Cain.
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I don't think the US Government can do anything overt to change it, especially over the short term. Any intervention will be instigation.
What can /we/ do? Absolutely nothing. Much like gravity, our usefulness drops off rapidly with distance.
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2013, 07:53:06 PM
Since when has targeted assassination worked?
Israel has been "targeting" Hamas leaders for assassination since 2003. Obama with Al-Qaeda since 2009. Hasn't really worked now, has it. Do you really think states are top down, hierarchical structures and striking at the top will bring the whole thing grinding to a halt? This isn't 1095.
True enough, I'm just pissed and feeling powerless and flailing about.
Quote from: Pergamos on September 07, 2013, 08:14:31 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2013, 07:53:06 PM
Since when has targeted assassination worked?
Israel has been "targeting" Hamas leaders for assassination since 2003. Obama with Al-Qaeda since 2009. Hasn't really worked now, has it. Do you really think states are top down, hierarchical structures and striking at the top will bring the whole thing grinding to a halt? This isn't 1095.
True enough, I'm just pissed and feeling powerless and flailing about.
It's generally considered "bad form" to talk about murdering government officials when you're "flailing about." Might wanna ask Barrett about that one, except now he's got a gag order.
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on September 07, 2013, 08:19:10 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on September 07, 2013, 08:14:31 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2013, 07:53:06 PM
Since when has targeted assassination worked?
Israel has been "targeting" Hamas leaders for assassination since 2003. Obama with Al-Qaeda since 2009. Hasn't really worked now, has it. Do you really think states are top down, hierarchical structures and striking at the top will bring the whole thing grinding to a halt? This isn't 1095.
True enough, I'm just pissed and feeling powerless and flailing about.
It's generally considered "bad form" to talk about murdering government officials when you're "flailing about." Might wanna ask Barrett about that one, except now he's got a gag order.
I dunno, I think more people ought to at least advocate for it. Might get them a little bit scared of the people and a government that is scared of it's people is going to do a better job of governing.
Quote from: Pergamos on September 07, 2013, 08:23:34 PM
Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on September 07, 2013, 08:19:10 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on September 07, 2013, 08:14:31 PM
Quote from: Cain on September 07, 2013, 07:53:06 PM
Since when has targeted assassination worked?
Israel has been "targeting" Hamas leaders for assassination since 2003. Obama with Al-Qaeda since 2009. Hasn't really worked now, has it. Do you really think states are top down, hierarchical structures and striking at the top will bring the whole thing grinding to a halt? This isn't 1095.
True enough, I'm just pissed and feeling powerless and flailing about.
It's generally considered "bad form" to talk about murdering government officials when you're "flailing about." Might wanna ask Barrett about that one, except now he's got a gag order.
I dunno, I think more people ought to at least advocate for it. Might get them a little bit scared of the people and a government that is scared of it's people is going to do a better job of governing.
What on earth would make you think that could scare them? They don't just have the better hand, they have
all the cards. They already have a story ready and waiting for any idiot willing to start shooting up congress. You won't be a "freedom fighter" you'll be "mentally disturbed" and drugged before trial to look the part. For your own good. Unless you're brown, then you're a terrorist and a Muslim, of course. And the more you talk about it the more case they'll have for throwing you in a bin somewhere the moment you look like you might be accomplishing anything they don't like.
And I'm aware how much "us" and "them" thinking I'm using here, and that's not helpful either but I really don't have a better frame for these thoughts.
Well, what I am seeing appears to be the consensus as to what we should do is do our best to relax as we take what the powers that be choose to give us. I may be resigned to that at some point but I'm not yet.
Also, if I were killing congresspeople for political reasons I would be a terrorist. That's sort of the definition of terrorism (killing people for political ends) so they wouldn't really be mislabelling me.
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Quote from: Pergamos on September 07, 2013, 09:59:00 PM
the definition of terrorism (killing people for political ends)
Not going to Requia on this, but is it?
Also, Cain, your post was excellent.
Quote from: Pæs on September 07, 2013, 11:42:13 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on September 07, 2013, 09:59:00 PM
the definition of terrorism (killing people for political ends)
Not going to Requia on this, but is it?
Also, Cain, your post was excellent.
I forgot about Requia. Where did she go anyway?
Quote from: Pergamos on September 07, 2013, 07:47:36 PM
You are framing "we" as our government. Although the US is nominally a democracy we, as in you and I, don't have much say over what our government does. I think a better question is not what should we, the government, which we, the people don't actually have much control over, do. A better question is what should we, you and I, people without a strong voice in government, do to make things better for ourselves as well as for those poor bastards over in Syria.
And I'm strongly leaning towards Roger's solution of killing them, but them is our government. Clearly protests don't work, letter writing campaigns don't work, petitions don't work, hactivism doesn't work. Maybe targeted assassinations of politicians who vote for complete assbaggery would be a step toward actually taking control of the country.
Unfortunately I don't have the skills or resources to do this sort of thing.
I'm more than a little disturbed by this statement.
Quote from: Pergamos on September 07, 2013, 09:59:00 PM
Also, if I were killing congresspeople for political reasons I would be a terrorist. That's sort of the definition of terrorism (killing people for political ends) so they wouldn't really be mislabelling me.
You're still advocating murder for your own political ends. It's just that your ideology is directed outside of your borders.
Quote from: Kai on September 08, 2013, 03:30:31 AM
Quote from: Pæs on September 07, 2013, 11:42:13 PM
Quote from: Pergamos on September 07, 2013, 09:59:00 PM
the definition of terrorism (killing people for political ends)
Not going to Requia on this, but is it?
Also, Cain, your post was excellent.
I forgot about Requia. Where did she go anyway?
Decided to autistically continue her beef with Roger while his grandfather was dying. Predictable results followed.
Anyway, in answer to the question, and sort of building on what Nigel said about getting rid of exploitation helping a lot, (and really excellent post Cain, that said a lot that should have prevented Pergamos from advocating international vigilantism), the only thing that will really fix this is a post-scarcity Earth. War, even internal wars, aren't really about ideologies or religions or political systems or what not. It's mainly about resources, as far as I can tell. Note, that power and education are also resources, just as much as energy, or food, or shelter, or clothing. What causes governments to crack down on their populations? What causes populations to overthrow their governments? Could you see a government existing where the people have little rights and little say but being perfectly fine with the status quo? I can.
Maybe a helpful place to start, if you want to minimize the benefit you get from exploitation: http://www.fairphone.com (http://www.fairphone.com)
Quote from: V3X on September 08, 2013, 04:30:53 AM
Maybe a helpful place to start, if you want to minimize the benefit you get from exploitation: http://www.fairphone.com (http://www.fairphone.com)
This might well be helpful. I'm tired of my phone.
Quote from: V3X on September 08, 2013, 04:30:53 AM
Maybe a helpful place to start, if you want to minimize the benefit you get from exploitation: http://www.fairphone.com (http://www.fairphone.com)
The fact that this is on the market at all is a very helpful start, I hope it becomes available in the US soon. I also hope they expand to computers, I need a new computer for school and I really have no choice in the matter but ALL of my options are built by what is essentially slave labor.
Excellent post, Cain.
It really disturbs me, but I suspect you're right --- that the cost of intervention may be higher than payoff (in terms of deaths prevented).
I am visualizing a world where millions of people are being axemurdered in some far off corner of the globe, and they are begging the international community for help, and they go go, "Yeah, so the thing is, we don't want a global war, so...."
And at the other end of the spectrum you've got America World Police, that "solves" humanitarian problems in select countries. Not desirable either, but I guess that's what we bought with all that cold war money.
What can WE do?
I occasionally fantasize about starting a political platform called "Vote the Motherfuckers Out". All incumbents must go, clearance sale, going out of business, act now while supplies last.
Quote from: Cramulus on September 09, 2013, 07:02:23 PM
I occasionally fantasize about starting a political platform called "Vote the Motherfuckers Out". All incumbents must go, clearance sale, going out of business, act now while supplies last.
There's a problem with that.
Maybe a one-time Mega Sale where everyone gets to vote in somebody else's district.
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Quote from: Queen Gogira Pennyworth, BSW on September 06, 2013, 11:03:29 PM
The fuck do we do about all this shit?
Honest answer: There is nothing you can do. What you're seeing is talking monkeys trying to exist in group sizes they were never designed to exist in, using monkey psychology which is, at best, brutal and, at worst, horrific.
The only solution is one which does not require any action on the part of the talking monkeys. Basically the solution lies somewhere between cataclysmic natural or man-made disaster or invasion by a race of benevolent aliens.
So here's what I'm personally going to do - party like there's no tomorrow and fuck humanity. Sooner or later there will be no tomorrow for me. I'd like to get my yuks in before that happens