A lot has been said about the nature of Really Real MusicTM and its role in society. I am here to tell you it's all horseshit, and you should never listen to that Dirty Old Uncle Roger anyway.
Music is, at its heart, a GAME. It's a game of making noises. Sometimes, those noises are things the rest of the world wants to hear, and will pay you good money to continue making. Other times, those noises are awful and make everyone wish you would fall off a cliff onto some llamas just to make it go away. This is all part of the game. Music brings NOISE into the world, and noise is frequently more interesting than silence. Those who create music, even if they aren't creating Really Real Music, are engaged in creative acts, and creativity is a thing we should all have more of, mmmkay?
Some music is played by strict rules: minuets, concertos, 3 minute verse-chorus-verse-bridge-chorus pop songs, etc. Some music is played by loose rules, or none at all. Whether musicians are playing games of Order or Disorder is irrelevant to the fact that they are playing games. Whether one person prefers to hear games of Order or Disorder is irrelevant to the fact that both are games. Comparing an Opera to whatever the fuck Skrillex is making is every bit as nonsensical as comparing the 2014 Canadian Olympic Curling team to the 1984 Denver Broncos. Different. Fucking. Games.
It is worth discussing when games become toxic to the players. Just like people are starting to question why all these former football players are turning up with massive brain damage, we should examine why it is that certain generas of music seem to have a detrimental effect on the performers. This does not mean we ban the game, it means we look at the evidence in front of us and come up with solutions that preserve the game for those who want to play it while preventing undue harm to the players.
Music is an excellent game, because it spawns new versions of itself all the time. Musicians try on new sets of rules like teenage girls in a thrift store: enthusiastically and often with a poor sense of taste. What comes out isn't always good (maybe not even frequently good) but sometimes they succeed in making their audience feel things, and that is a Noble Fucking Cause.
As an example, here is a clip from, of all things, American Idol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uRz6MgpkGw
That is as Middle-of-the-Fucking-System as you can get for the music industry, and it doesn't matter because I still had feels.
If you want to talk about tearing down an industry that stifles creativity, I'm all for that. If you want to talk about the toxic effects of certain musical tropes, I'm there. But fuck every last one of you that feels like they have the right to say "THIS is music, and THIS is not music." That's not how games work, and that's not how subjective things like "taste" work. You can dislike it, but that doesn't make it not real. Let them play.
(edited to correct link)
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 09, 2013, 03:04:40 PM
and you should never listen to that Dirty Old Uncle Roger anyway.
True fact.
AMEN, SISTER!
That's brilliant! However... while the jpg is lovely, too, is in intentionally inserted instead of a clip from American Idol?
Quote from: holist on October 09, 2013, 04:50:49 PM
That's brilliant! However... while the jpg is lovely, too, is in intentionally inserted instead of a clip from American Idol?
Is it a flat jpg? There were a bunch of versions of that video, I just picked one at random.
Let's talk about one game in particular: Cocktease.
Cocktease has its roots set in Sexy Rock, while borrowing some rules from Fuck Music Just Dance, Sad Pretty Girl With Guitar, and Selling Sex to Little Girls (among others).
The rules of Cocktease are as follows:
> Be a pretty young girl/woman
> Sing about sex
> Express regret that you are not sexually available to your listeners
> Music videos are required
> Videos must include highly choreographed dances with no less than a dozen participants in bizarre settings (ideally multiple sets per video), multiple costumes, and at least one set of crazy hair/make up
> Songs must include strong hooks and follow all other "radio pop" rules (3-5 min, verse chorus verse, etc.)
> Smile all the time
> Don't be sexually available to anyone
Here is Selina Gomez, playing the game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-D1EB74Ckg
The lyrics:
QuoteYou ain't gotta worry, it's an open invitation
I'll be sittin' right here, real patient
All day, all night, I'll be waitin' standby
Can't stop because I love it, hate the way I love you
All day, all night, maybe I'm addicted for life, no lie.
I'm not too shy to show I love you, I got no regrets.
I love you much, too much to hide you, this love ain't finished yet.
This love ain't finished yet...
So baby whenever you're ready...
When you're ready come and get it
Na na na na
You got the kind of love that I want, let me get that. (Let me get that yeah)
And baby once I get it, I'm yours no take backs.
Gon' love you for life, I ain't leaving your side
Even if you knock it, ain't no way to stop it
Forever you're mine, baby I'm addicted, no lie, no lie.
I assure you, that's
the entirety of the lyrics, just left out the bits that repeat endlessly.
This video won awards (http://"http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/25/best-pop-video-vma-mtv-2013-video-music-awards_n_3798949.html").
Here's Britney Spears, playing the game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CduA0TULnow
The lyrics:
QuoteI think I did it again
I made you believe we're more than just friends
Oh baby
It might seem like a crush
But it doesn't mean that I'm serious
'Cause to lose all my senses
That is just so typically me
Oh baby, baby
[CHORUS:]
Oops!...I did it again
I played with your heart, got lost in the game
Oh baby, baby
Oops!...You think I'm in love
That I'm sent from above
I'm not that innocent
You see my problem is this
I'm dreaming away
Wishing that heroes, they truly exist
I cry, watching the days
Can't you see I'm a fool in so many ways
But to lose all my senses
That is just so typically me
Again, just deleted stuff that's repeated (and a small spoken section).
For your homework, come up with one more example of a female artist playing Cocktease. Next, we'll compare and contrast these examples to "Wrecking Ball" and "We Can't Stop."
-
Quote from: Cain on October 09, 2013, 06:52:37 PM
Sinead O'Connor, Nothing Compares 2U.
Incorrect. This video does not include any highly choreographed dance numbers, no back up dancers, and the costumes and makeup are not sufficiently wacky. Also, Sinead does not smile all the time.
-
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 09, 2013, 06:02:20 PM
Quote from: holist on October 09, 2013, 04:50:49 PM
That's brilliant! However... while the jpg is lovely, too, is in intentionally inserted instead of a clip from American Idol?
Is it a flat jpg? There were a bunch of versions of that video, I just picked one at random.
I think you pasted the wrong link.
Quote from: holist on October 09, 2013, 07:00:51 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 09, 2013, 06:02:20 PM
Quote from: holist on October 09, 2013, 04:50:49 PM
That's brilliant! However... while the jpg is lovely, too, is in intentionally inserted instead of a clip from American Idol?
Is it a flat jpg? There were a bunch of versions of that video, I just picked one at random.
I think you pasted the wrong link.
You are correct.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 09, 2013, 06:58:59 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 09, 2013, 06:52:37 PM
Sinead O'Connor, Nothing Compares 2U.
Incorrect. This video does not include any highly choreographed dance numbers, no back up dancers, and the costumes and makeup are not sufficiently wacky. Also, Sinead does not smile all the time.
But that woman Gomez hardly ever smiles in that song, either! :)
Maybe the rule should be corrected to "Either smile or pout all the time"
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 09, 2013, 07:02:08 PM
Quote from: holist on October 09, 2013, 07:00:51 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 09, 2013, 06:02:20 PM
Quote from: holist on October 09, 2013, 04:50:49 PM
That's brilliant! However... while the jpg is lovely, too, is in intentionally inserted instead of a clip from American Idol?
Is it a flat jpg? There were a bunch of versions of that video, I just picked one at random.
I think you pasted the wrong link.
You are correct.
Thanks
Quote from: holist on October 09, 2013, 07:08:28 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 09, 2013, 06:58:59 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 09, 2013, 06:52:37 PM
Sinead O'Connor, Nothing Compares 2U.
Incorrect. This video does not include any highly choreographed dance numbers, no back up dancers, and the costumes and makeup are not sufficiently wacky. Also, Sinead does not smile all the time.
But that woman Gomez hardly ever smiles in that song, either! :)
Maybe the rule should be corrected to "Either smile or pout all the time"
Smile all the time does not apply to the video, but irl. Sinead does not smile all the time in interviews and whatnot.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 09, 2013, 07:15:06 PM
Quote from: holist on October 09, 2013, 07:08:28 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 09, 2013, 06:58:59 PM
Quote from: Cain on October 09, 2013, 06:52:37 PM
Sinead O'Connor, Nothing Compares 2U.
Incorrect. This video does not include any highly choreographed dance numbers, no back up dancers, and the costumes and makeup are not sufficiently wacky. Also, Sinead does not smile all the time.
But that woman Gomez hardly ever smiles in that song, either! :)
Maybe the rule should be corrected to "Either smile or pout all the time"
Smile all the time does not apply to the video, but irl. Sinead does not smile all the time in interviews and whatnot.
Aha! Makes sense. Smile on PR occasions, pout in videos, then? Sorry, I can't think of an example, I only ever catch glimpses in public places with the tv on.
It's fine, the example thing was just so i would stop grabbing them. Basically anything from Britney Spears and Cristina Aguilera's catalogs fit, along with earlier Miley Cyrus, Nikki Minaj is arguable (she's not playing the right type of music, but otherwise spot on for the game), Katy Perry (most of the time), I don't know who this Ariana Grande chick is, but this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJuWlMFToNo looks like she's playing the game, too.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 09, 2013, 06:51:30 PM
Let's talk about one game in particular: Cocktease.
Cocktease has its roots set in Sexy Rock, while borrowing some rules from Fuck Music Just Dance, Sad Pretty Girl With Guitar, and Selling Sex to Little Girls (among others).
The rules of Cocktease are as follows:
> Be a pretty young girl/woman
> Sing about sex
> Express regret that you are not sexually available to your listeners
> Music videos are required
> Videos must include highly choreographed dances with no less than a dozen participants in bizarre settings (ideally multiple sets per video), multiple costumes, and at least one set of crazy hair/make up
> Songs must include strong hooks and follow all other "radio pop" rules (3-5 min, verse chorus verse, etc.)
> Smile all the time
> Don't be sexually available to anyone
Here is Selina Gomez, playing the game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-D1EB74Ckg
The lyrics:
QuoteYou ain't gotta worry, it's an open invitation
I'll be sittin' right here, real patient
All day, all night, I'll be waitin' standby
Can't stop because I love it, hate the way I love you
All day, all night, maybe I'm addicted for life, no lie.
I'm not too shy to show I love you, I got no regrets.
I love you much, too much to hide you, this love ain't finished yet.
This love ain't finished yet...
So baby whenever you're ready...
When you're ready come and get it
Na na na na
You got the kind of love that I want, let me get that. (Let me get that yeah)
And baby once I get it, I'm yours no take backs.
Gon' love you for life, I ain't leaving your side
Even if you knock it, ain't no way to stop it
Forever you're mine, baby I'm addicted, no lie, no lie.
I assure you, that's the entirety of the lyrics, just left out the bits that repeat endlessly.
This video won awards (http://"http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/25/best-pop-video-vma-mtv-2013-video-music-awards_n_3798949.html").
Here's Britney Spears, playing the game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CduA0TULnow
The lyrics:QuoteI think I did it again
I made you believe we're more than just friends
Oh baby
It might seem like a crush
But it doesn't mean that I'm serious
'Cause to lose all my senses
That is just so typically me
Oh baby, baby
[CHORUS:]
Oops!...I did it again
I played with your heart, got lost in the game
Oh baby, baby
Oops!...You think I'm in love
That I'm sent from above
I'm not that innocent
You see my problem is this
I'm dreaming away
Wishing that heroes, they truly exist
I cry, watching the days
Can't you see I'm a fool in so many ways
But to lose all my senses
That is just so typically me
Again, just deleted stuff that's repeated (and a small spoken section).
For your homework, come up with one more example of a female artist playing Cocktease. Next, we'll compare and contrast these examples to "Wrecking Ball" and "We Can't Stop."
Does this count? :lol:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQa7SvVCdZk
Yes, I'm pretty sure that counts :)
Based on the OP, I'm glad to see that my point in my thread was completely missed or ignored.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 09:04:26 PM
Based on the OP, I'm glad to see that my point in my thread was completely missed or ignored.
Music prevents me from De-evolving back to a inbred savage?
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 09:05:47 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 09:04:26 PM
Based on the OP, I'm glad to see that my point in my thread was completely missed or ignored.
Music prevents me from De-evolving back to a inbred savage?
Apparently, the counterpoint is that all music is music. Which I apparently denied at some point.
I must have been drunk, though, because I don't remember that shit at all.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 09:06:50 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 09:05:47 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 09:04:26 PM
Based on the OP, I'm glad to see that my point in my thread was completely missed or ignored.
Music prevents me from De-evolving back to a inbred savage?
Apparently, the counterpoint is that all music is music. Which I apparently denied at some point.
I must have been drunk, though, because I don't remember that shit at all.
It was an error in my reading of your first post, the idea that stuff gets old and needs to be demolished and anything that's not PUNK AS FUCK (whatever that means this generation) isn't worth playing. It came across (to me) as very AUTHENTIC MUSIC OR GTFO, like what holist was later arguing. Your second post made it clear that you weren't saying old shit isn't music, just that new shit needs to be included too. Sorry I missed the point the first go round.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 09, 2013, 09:20:14 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 09:06:50 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 09:05:47 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 09:04:26 PM
Based on the OP, I'm glad to see that my point in my thread was completely missed or ignored.
Music prevents me from De-evolving back to a inbred savage?
Apparently, the counterpoint is that all music is music. Which I apparently denied at some point.
I must have been drunk, though, because I don't remember that shit at all.
It was an error in my reading of your first post, the idea that stuff gets old and needs to be demolished and anything that's not PUNK AS FUCK (whatever that means this generation) isn't worth playing. It came across (to me) as very AUTHENTIC MUSIC OR GTFO, like what holist was later arguing. Your second post made it clear that you weren't saying old shit isn't music, just that new shit needs to be included too. Sorry I missed the point the first go round.
S'ok. In fact, one of my central points has been that "authenticity" is more or less a completely bullshit catagory. It was written because RWHN had been insisting that certain forms of music, etc, didn't count, and basically for the same reason Holist was getting at with the authenticity thing.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 09:22:15 PM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on October 09, 2013, 09:20:14 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 09:06:50 PM
Quote from: Reverend What's His Bear on October 09, 2013, 09:05:47 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 09, 2013, 09:04:26 PM
Based on the OP, I'm glad to see that my point in my thread was completely missed or ignored.
Music prevents me from De-evolving back to a inbred savage?
Apparently, the counterpoint is that all music is music. Which I apparently denied at some point.
I must have been drunk, though, because I don't remember that shit at all.
It was an error in my reading of your first post, the idea that stuff gets old and needs to be demolished and anything that's not PUNK AS FUCK (whatever that means this generation) isn't worth playing. It came across (to me) as very AUTHENTIC MUSIC OR GTFO, like what holist was later arguing. Your second post made it clear that you weren't saying old shit isn't music, just that new shit needs to be included too. Sorry I missed the point the first go round.
S'ok. In fact, one of my central points has been that "authenticity" is more or less a completely bullshit catagory. It was written because RWHN had been insisting that certain forms of music, etc, didn't count, and basically for the same reason Holist was getting at with the authenticity thing.
That means Nirvana is utter shit because their white and male, and not to shut up about having a "hard life". But not to RWHN, see there's hidden gold.