Okay, so if you want to compare to legal substances: Weed is more toxic than tobacco.
Higher tar content
Higher carbon monoxide content
More carcinogens
This is why the comparison to other legal substances is irrelevant.
Quote from: Not Your Average Mean on October 12, 2013, 12:32:18 AM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on October 12, 2013, 12:10:37 AM
Quote from: Not Your Average Mean on October 12, 2013, 12:09:38 AM
Speaking from first hand knowledge, and having direct conversations with them, they aren't worried about competition and market share. They are pissed about the "weed is safer than alcohol"'meme.
Because it effects their advertizing (and thus market share), or because they are true believers in their product?
It's more, in their eyes, about MPP talking smack about their products. Which certainly could impact sales, but they said that legalization hasn't impacted them at all from a strict competition point of view.
They believe it is an irrelevant comparison. I agree with them, but for different reasons.
Not because their product is safe, and they know where I stand on that. But because it distracts and obscures the real, documented dangers of marijuana, on its own merits.
Could you please stop posting, ITT?
I'm not trying to fight, argue, debate, or taunt. Just, please, RWHN, please stop posting in this thread.
If he continues to post statements presented as fact with no supporting academic studies, I will ask for a split.
The relative dangers of marijuana are in fact directly relevant to the topic of the thread, so if he has data from a credible source such as a peer-reviewed medical or science journal, I'd be interested in seeing it.
From the above website:
Myth: Marijuana is not as bad for you as tobacco.
Fact: Marijuana is linked to respiratory problems, just like tobacco.
While the co-occurrence of marijuana and tobacco smoking is high and makes differentiating between their individual negative effects difficult, research has shown that smoking ONE marijuana joint has the same impact on an individual's large lung airways as smoking 16 tobacco cigarettes.
Additionally, marijuana smoke contains between 50-70% more cancer-causing chemicals than the levels found in tobacco smoke. Smoking marijuana has been clearly linked to respiratory problems.
Did you not see the citations?
Here are the studies linked to the facts about impacts to resporatory system.
Tashkin, D.P. (2005). Smoked marijuana as a cause of lung injury. Monaldi Archives for Chest Disease, 63(2), 93-100.
Tashkin, D.P., Calvarese, B.M., Simmons, M.S., & Shapiro, B.J. (1980). Respiratory status of seventy-four habitual marijuana smokers. Chest, 78(5), 699-706.
Quote from: Not Your Average Mean on October 12, 2013, 01:17:17 AM
Did you not see the citations?
You cannot provide primary sources citing relative risk? This thread is about relative risk, not about whether there is any risk. Please stay on topic.
Yes, risk relative to tobacco.
There is apparently no correlation between marijuana use and increased cancer risk, despite marijuana containing carcinogens.
http://www.harmreductionjournal.com/content/2/1/21
Here is another primary source that talks about the relative risks of marijuana compared to tobacco:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1525-1497.2004.40081.x/full
Objective: Although a number of studies have examined the respiratory impact of marijuana smoking, such studies have generally used convenience samples of marijuana and tobacco users. The current study examined respiratory effects of marijuana and tobacco use in a nationally representative sample while controlling for age, gender, and current asthma.
Design: Analysis of the nationally representative third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES III).
Setting: U.S. households.
Participants: A total of 6,728 adults age 20 to 59 who completed the drug, tobacco, and health sections of the NHANES III questionnaire in 1988 and 1994. Current marijuana use was defined as self-reported 100+ lifetime use and at least 1 day of use in the past month.
Measurements and Main Results: Self-reported respiratory symptoms included chronic bronchitis, frequent phlegm, shortness of breath, frequent wheezing, chest sounds without a cold, and pneumonia. A medical exam also provided an overall chest finding and a measure of reduced pulmonary functioning. Marijuana use was associated with respiratory symptoms of chronic bronchitis (P=.02), coughing on most days (P=.001), phlegm production (P=.0005), wheezing (P<.0001), and chest sounds without a cold (P=.02).
Conclusion: The impact of marijuana smoking on respiratory health has some significant similarities to that of tobacco smoking. Efforts to prevent and reduce marijuana use, such as advising patients to quit and providing referrals for support and assistance, may have substantial public health benefits associated with decreased respiratory health problems.
Quote from: Not Your Average Mean on October 12, 2013, 01:28:38 AM
Here is another primary source that talks about the relative risks of marijuana compared to tobacco:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1525-1497.2004.40081.x/full
Objective: Although a number of studies have examined the respiratory impact of marijuana smoking, such studies have generally used convenience samples of marijuana and tobacco users. The current study examined respiratory effects of marijuana and tobacco use in a nationally representative sample while controlling for age, gender, and current asthma.
Design: Analysis of the nationally representative third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES III).
Setting: U.S. households.
Participants: A total of 6,728 adults age 20 to 59 who completed the drug, tobacco, and health sections of the NHANES III questionnaire in 1988 and 1994. Current marijuana use was defined as self-reported 100+ lifetime use and at least 1 day of use in the past month.
Measurements and Main Results: Self-reported respiratory symptoms included chronic bronchitis, frequent phlegm, shortness of breath, frequent wheezing, chest sounds without a cold, and pneumonia. A medical exam also provided an overall chest finding and a measure of reduced pulmonary functioning. Marijuana use was associated with respiratory symptoms of chronic bronchitis (P=.02), coughing on most days (P=.001), phlegm production (P=.0005), wheezing (P<.0001), and chest sounds without a cold (P=.02).
Conclusion: The impact of marijuana smoking on respiratory health has some significant similarities to that of tobacco smoking. Efforts to prevent and reduce marijuana use, such as advising patients to quit and providing referrals for support and assistance, may have substantial public health benefits associated with decreased respiratory health problems.
QuoteThe total sample consisted of 6,728 individuals: 4,789 nonsmokers, 1,525 tobacco-only smokers, and 414 marijuana smokers (320 also smoked tobacco).
So, how is concurrent use of tobacco controlled for if such a high percentage of marijuana users in this sample are also tobacco users?
Quote from: Not Your Average Mean on October 12, 2013, 01:20:27 AM
Yes, risk relative to tobacco.
Relative to tobacco, the risks associated with smoking marijuana is very low. It might potentially be higher if marijuana was smoked in the same quantities as tobacco, but it isn't. Smoking marijuana regularly puts users at a higher risk for lung cancer than not smoking, but a much lower risk than smoking tobacco.
http://www.nature.com/onc/journal/v21/n48/abs/1205807a.html
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1018427320658
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19004418
Quote from: Don Coyote on October 12, 2013, 01:31:27 AM
I thought this was about the risks of pot relative to alcohol. More specifically to the relative risks of driving while impaired, or not any potential correlations between potheads being less likely to actually drive than drunks.
It was, as a matter of fact. I am requesting a thread split; can a mod please split out all of the posts pertaining to the risk of smoking marijuana relative to the risk of smoking tobacco?
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 12, 2013, 01:36:18 AM
Quote from: Don Coyote on October 12, 2013, 01:31:27 AM
I thought this was about the risks of pot relative to alcohol. More specifically to the relative risks of driving while impaired, or not any potential correlations between potheads being less likely to actually drive than drunks.
It was, as a matter of fact. I am requesting a thread split; can a mod please split out all of the posts pertaining to the risk of smoking marijuana relative to the risk of smoking tobacco?
Which might make an interesting thread on its own anyway.
Quote from: Doktor Blight on October 12, 2013, 01:37:39 AM
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 12, 2013, 01:36:18 AM
Quote from: Don Coyote on October 12, 2013, 01:31:27 AM
I thought this was about the risks of pot relative to alcohol. More specifically to the relative risks of driving while impaired, or not any potential correlations between potheads being less likely to actually drive than drunks.
It was, as a matter of fact. I am requesting a thread split; can a mod please split out all of the posts pertaining to the risk of smoking marijuana relative to the risk of smoking tobacco?
Which might make an interesting thread on its own anyway.
Sure, it seems potentially worth discussing.
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 12, 2013, 01:39:09 AM
Quote from: Doktor Blight on October 12, 2013, 01:37:39 AM
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 12, 2013, 01:36:18 AM
Quote from: Don Coyote on October 12, 2013, 01:31:27 AM
I thought this was about the risks of pot relative to alcohol. More specifically to the relative risks of driving while impaired, or not any potential correlations between potheads being less likely to actually drive than drunks.
It was, as a matter of fact. I am requesting a thread split; can a mod please split out all of the posts pertaining to the risk of smoking marijuana relative to the risk of smoking tobacco?
Which might make an interesting thread on its own anyway.
Sure, it seems potentially worth discussing.
The past couple of lectures and labs in bio seem to have revolved around biochem. I'm a bit intrigued at this point, tbh.
Like a great many of STEM topics, they've become somehow easier for me to understand and pay attention to in college as opposed to high school when I wasted tax dollars.
Seriously, the only things I remember from Chemistry class was Mr. Russell shouting at me to stop doing the Devil's work (I was drawing occultist symbols instead of listening), and being miserable there the day after a Black Sabbath concert.
And possibly my best friend's "ex" from Jr. High seemingly taking an interest in my preferred wastes of time, but that just might have been male misinterpretation of female motives.
Marijuana is great for when you're obsessing on some utter bullshit (like spending every waking hour shitting up forum threads) and you need to get sane again.
No, actually that is pretty horrible advice. I suggest you do more homework.
I think it's great advice. I suggest you go smoke a bowl.
It would probably chill him out, and it might even make him more friendly.
I hear magic mushrooms have such an effect. Seeing the world from a new perspective apparently makes people more tolerant and thus nicer.
Quote from: :regret: on October 12, 2013, 11:45:43 PM
I hear magic mushrooms have such an effect. Seeing the world from a new perspective apparently makes people more tolerant and thus nicer.
Ohhhh I don't know that mushrooms or any psychedelic would be a good idea for him. They tend to temporarily remove your inner filters and that could result in a very bad trip indeed.
Quote from: Doktor Blight on October 12, 2013, 01:33:09 AM
Quote from: Not Your Average Mean on October 12, 2013, 01:28:38 AM
Here is another primary source that talks about the relative risks of marijuana compared to tobacco:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1525-1497.2004.40081.x/full
Objective: Although a number of studies have examined the respiratory impact of marijuana smoking, such studies have generally used convenience samples of marijuana and tobacco users. The current study examined respiratory effects of marijuana and tobacco use in a nationally representative sample while controlling for age, gender, and current asthma.
Design: Analysis of the nationally representative third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES III).
Setting: U.S. households.
Participants: A total of 6,728 adults age 20 to 59 who completed the drug, tobacco, and health sections of the NHANES III questionnaire in 1988 and 1994. Current marijuana use was defined as self-reported 100+ lifetime use and at least 1 day of use in the past month.
Measurements and Main Results: Self-reported respiratory symptoms included chronic bronchitis, frequent phlegm, shortness of breath, frequent wheezing, chest sounds without a cold, and pneumonia. A medical exam also provided an overall chest finding and a measure of reduced pulmonary functioning. Marijuana use was associated with respiratory symptoms of chronic bronchitis (P=.02), coughing on most days (P=.001), phlegm production (P=.0005), wheezing (P<.0001), and chest sounds without a cold (P=.02).
Conclusion: The impact of marijuana smoking on respiratory health has some significant similarities to that of tobacco smoking. Efforts to prevent and reduce marijuana use, such as advising patients to quit and providing referrals for support and assistance, may have substantial public health benefits associated with decreased respiratory health problems.
QuoteThe total sample consisted of 6,728 individuals: 4,789 nonsmokers, 1,525 tobacco-only smokers, and 414 marijuana smokers (320 also smoked tobacco).
So, how is concurrent use of tobacco controlled for if such a high percentage of marijuana users in this sample are also tobacco users?
Why is anyone even still asking him to address the problematic parts of his weak token gestures towards providing evidence?
Oh, a problem with my source. That's too hard to address, but I'ma maintain the belief anyway.
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 13, 2013, 12:00:41 AM
Quote from: :regret: on October 12, 2013, 11:45:43 PM
I hear magic mushrooms have such an effect. Seeing the world from a new perspective apparently makes people more tolerant and thus nicer.
Ohhhh I don't know that mushrooms or any psychedelic would be a good idea for him. They tend to temporarily remove your inner filters and that could result in a very bad trip indeed.
(http://i.imgur.com/drKPDdc.jpg)
Quote from: Pæs on October 13, 2013, 12:08:57 AM
Quote from: Not Your Nigel on October 13, 2013, 12:00:41 AM
Quote from: :regret: on October 12, 2013, 11:45:43 PM
I hear magic mushrooms have such an effect. Seeing the world from a new perspective apparently makes people more tolerant and thus nicer.
Ohhhh I don't know that mushrooms or any psychedelic would be a good idea for him. They tend to temporarily remove your inner filters and that could result in a very bad trip indeed.
(http://i.imgur.com/drKPDdc.jpg)
YEP. :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Quote from: Not Your Average Mean on October 12, 2013, 01:13:34 AMresearch has shown that smoking ONE marijuana joint has the same impact on an individual's large lung airways as smoking 16 tobacco cigarettes
So here they're citing Tashkin, D.P., Calvarese, B.M., Simmons, M.S., & Shapiro, B.J. (1980). Respiratory status of seventy-four habitual marijuana smokers. Chest, 78(5), 699-706
Same person in 2013 found that "Regular smoking of marijuana by itself causes visible and microscopic injury to the large airways that is consistently associated with an increased likelihood of symptoms of chronic bronchitis that subside after cessation of use. On the other hand, habitual use of marijuana alone does not appear to lead to significant abnormalities in lung function when assessed either cross-sectionally or longitudinally, except for possible increases in lung volumes and modest increases in airway resistance of unclear clinical significance."
(Donald P. Tashkin "Effects of Marijuana Smoking on the Lung", Annals of the American Thoracic Society, Vol. 10, No. 3 (2013), pp. 239-247.)
And in the paper cited as evidence that one 1 = 16 cigarettes as far as lung impact goes, Tashkin only actually referred to airway resistance comparable to 16 cigarettes and in that and future papers dismissed the significance of this change. NORML (lol, reputable sources) claim that Tashkin has specifically disavowed the notion that 1 joint = 16 cigarettes.
I don't have a stake in what happens with weed either way, I don't particularly care, but are you serious with the "WEED MYTHS BUSTED" page that looks like it was made in the 90s and is made of misrepresented studies?
Quote from: Pæs on October 14, 2013, 10:39:27 PM
Quote from: Not Your Average Mean on October 12, 2013, 01:13:34 AMresearch has shown that smoking ONE marijuana joint has the same impact on an individual's large lung airways as smoking 16 tobacco cigarettes
So here they're citing Tashkin, D.P., Calvarese, B.M., Simmons, M.S., & Shapiro, B.J. (1980). Respiratory status of seventy-four habitual marijuana smokers. Chest, 78(5), 699-706
Same person in 2013 found that "Regular smoking of marijuana by itself causes visible and microscopic injury to the large airways that is consistently associated with an increased likelihood of symptoms of chronic bronchitis that subside after cessation of use. On the other hand, habitual use of marijuana alone does not appear to lead to significant abnormalities in lung function when assessed either cross-sectionally or longitudinally, except for possible increases in lung volumes and modest increases in airway resistance of unclear clinical significance."
(Donald P. Tashkin "Effects of Marijuana Smoking on the Lung", Annals of the American Thoracic Society, Vol. 10, No. 3 (2013), pp. 239-247.)
And in the paper cited as evidence that one 1 = 16 cigarettes as far as lung impact goes, Tashkin only actually referred to airway resistance comparable to 16 cigarettes and in that and future papers dismissed the significance of this change. NORML (lol, reputable sources) claim that Tashkin has specifically disavowed the notion that 1 joint = 16 cigarettes.
I don't have a stake in what happens with weed either way, I don't particularly care, but are you serious with the "WEED MYTHS BUSTED" page that looks like it was made in the 90s and is made of misrepresented studies?
Ah, that was the Taskin update I was trying to remember. Thanks Paes.
http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan/ViewAbstract.aspx?mID=3086&sKey=3e3df4f9-a49f-40e7-a260-ccc3c54e0125&cKey=c7c6690d-3e5e-438e-9de4-d6f67a0703fb&mKey=9b2d28e7-24a0-466f-a3c9-07c21f6e9bc9 (http://www.abstractsonline.com/Plan/ViewAbstract.aspx?mID=3086&sKey=3e3df4f9-a49f-40e7-a260-ccc3c54e0125&cKey=c7c6690d-3e5e-438e-9de4-d6f67a0703fb&mKey=9b2d28e7-24a0-466f-a3c9-07c21f6e9bc9) (from this year)
QuoteConclusion
Our pooled results showed no significant association between the intensity, duration, or cumulative consumption of cannabis smoke and the risk of lung cancer overall or in never smokers. Cannabis use is under international control and its legal status varies, so reporting bias is of concern. However, since the reported prevalence in our data is comparable to nation-specific survey results and not differential between cases and controls, it is unlikely to fully explain the lack of significant association. Our results cannot preclude the possibility that cannabis may exhibit an association with lung cancer risk at extremely high dosage. We will also present data after applying restricted cubic splines to explore non-linear relationships.
Just the abstract, it would be nice to have access to the full paper.