I Am a Nihilist, and I'm Ok With That
or
How I Learned to Stop Worrying, and Love the Lack of Intrinsic Meaning or Value in Life
"Say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos." -Walter Sobchak
My name is Rex Bologna, and I am an existential nihilist.
[crowd: "Hi Rex."]
I first suspected I was a nihilist in my mid-teens, though I probably would have denied it at that time. I was only just coming to terms with accepting that I didn't think it was likely that gods existed, I didn't need the added burden of grappling with the meaning, or lack thereof, of life. But, once you toss the idea of an omniscient creator out of the mix, the idea that the universe is devoid of objective meaning pops up as a reasonable option fair quickly.
Science classes offered interesting possibilities which might answer such a question... procreation, for instance. It occurred to me that observation of nature seemed to indicate that the continued presence of your DNA in the future was a viable meaning of life for most creatures, but to what end? Replication for the sake of replication seemed as devoid of meaning as the nihilism which loomed behind it. And then, to further the angst, as I learned more about how life began on this mudball, the arbitrary randomness of the process filled me with dread. And so, I did what any teen would do: I avoided the question altogether.
But, eventually, teenage high school science experiments gave way to experiments of a more psychedelic nature. However, a deeply introspective state, with life's usual filters taken away, is not the best place to hide from questions of an existential nature. The horrible gaping cold blackness of nothing seemed to surround me. Life was without meaning, we were the end result of blind mistakes, and when we fucked it all up it would matter to nobody. I could scream, but my voice would be lost in the void.
These conclusions followed me into the crashed sober state which inevitably follows. A period of mourning set in, where I missed the innocence of my youthful naivety, when I could believe things happened for a reason, even if I didn't agree with them. A scornful misanthropy replaced my formerly playful outlook, as so many people around me seemed to parrot empty useless phrases like "everything happens for a reason", or spoke of karma, and cosmic justice. Those sad deluded fools stared into the inky nothingness with their rose-tinted glasses on, the joke would be on them in the end.
But, I eventually stumbled upon the biggest joke of all, which was a silly religion, or maybe a philosophy, or maybe just a joke... called Discordianism. This... whatever it was... seemed to confirm my nihilism, but at the same time described it in a manner which could be amusing... dare I say, even fun? Suddenly the lack of meaning in the universe seemed not only freeing, but hugely hilarious. And the meaning others found in the universe was even funnier, but now not in a mean-spirited manner, but instead with an awed glee. To me humanity was still a strange mistake, but also a fantastic mistake. The argument made by theists about the wind blowing scrap metal and turning it into a roller coaster suddenly made perfect sense to me, but not in the way they likely intended. Yes, it was a perfect analogy for humanity. Not because it implied a creator, but because it was completely batshit insane... which we clearly are.
I am Rex Bologna, the Handsome Devil of Discordia, and I believe life has no intrinsic meaning.
And, I am ok with that.
Interesting angle there, you mad bastard.
I'm not sure I'll ever get to that point, because I believe in the creative ability of humans to generate their own meaning, which puts me in the Absurdist realm. But you stated your POV quite well.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 27, 2013, 04:18:52 PM
Interesting angle there, you mad bastard.
I'm not sure I'll ever get to that point, because I believe in the creative ability of humans to generate their own meaning, which puts me in the Absurdist realm. But you stated your POV quite well.
I'm much happier in these last 8ish years, than I ever have been before in my life. Even when I'm not happy, if that makes any sense.
Of course, as always, YMMV.
I think it'd be boring if life had intrinsic meaning. I prefer the choose your own adventure model of self defined purpose.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 27, 2013, 04:18:52 PM
Interesting angle there, you mad bastard.
I'm not sure I'll ever get to that point, because I believe in the creative ability of humans to generate their own meaning, which puts me in the Absurdist realm. But you stated your POV quite well.
I don't understand the difference. Pretty sure I'd be a nihilist, too, if it wasn't for the fact that most of the nihilists I'm aware of seem a bit butthurt and/or depressed by the revelation. I'm with OP - life has no meaning and that's totally liberating. It also makes us the nearest things to gods we've encountered so far and that helps feed my ego monster.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on November 27, 2013, 10:07:35 PMIt also makes us the nearest things to gods we've encountered so far and that helps feed my ego monster.
NOW yer talking! Rah!
Traditionally, nihilists don't believe in creating their own meaning, because there's no meaning to create.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 27, 2013, 10:40:14 PM
Traditionally, nihilists don't believe in creating their own meaning, because there's no meaning to create.
Hm, my understanding was that the two terms were not mutually exclusive, but I only know about the concepts from my own readings... I never studied them in school, and there is every chance I grossly misunderstand the concepts. My understanding was that the existential nihilists didn't believe there was any inherent meaning to life, yet we are compelled to find meaning, and that the response of there being no inherent meaning was to realize existence itself is absurd.
Well, here's me derping all over the page again.
Don't care, still liked it :D
Yay!
A fantastic mistake!
Frankly, the more I learn about science, the more amazed and awed I am by everything there is. I mean, it's almost enough to make me religious, the fantastic complexity of everything.
Rex, it sounds like you're referencing Camus, who spun Absurdism from Nihilism.
I'm being a mind tease, as I can't expand on this right now.
Quote from: Radagast's Red Velvet Pancake Puppies on November 27, 2013, 11:28:29 PM
A fantastic mistake!
Frankly, the more I learn about science, the more amazed and awed I am by everything there is. I mean, it's almost enough to make me religious, the fantastic complexity of everything.
I thinkt he core of any good religion is that "awe" factor, so we're a good way there already.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on November 27, 2013, 11:34:28 PM
Rex, it sounds like you're referencing Camus, who spun Absurdism from Nihilism.
I'm being a mind tease, as I can't expand on this right now.
Camus is absolutely where I gleaned that from. I've read much more existentialism than I have nihilism, but I was under the impression my grasping of the concept was sound, maybe not. But then, when I consider my own personal view of existence, I don't think I ascribe it any particular "meaning", so... perhaps the OP stands as is.
Quote from: Rex Bologna on November 27, 2013, 11:41:41 PM
Quote from: Radagast's Red Velvet Pancake Puppies on November 27, 2013, 11:28:29 PM
A fantastic mistake!
Frankly, the more I learn about science, the more amazed and awed I am by everything there is. I mean, it's almost enough to make me religious, the fantastic complexity of everything.
I thinkt he core of any good religion is that "awe" factor, so we're a good way there already.
Seriously, the idea that I can exist is AMAZING. I mean, everything that goes into making just one cell, or one chromosome... life is the most astounding thing imaginable. You would think it would be improbable, yet it appears to not only be probable, but INEVITABLE that when you get matter together, this happens.
WHAT THE FUCK
ARE YOU SHITTING ME, UNIVERSE?
ALL THIS, BECAUSE ELECTRONS? REALLY?
I mean, fucking, seriously. Mind blown.
permission to reuse in things?
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on November 27, 2013, 11:57:23 PM
permission to reuse in things?
Mine, or what Nigel is saying? If mine: fo sho.
You're all a bunch of apostates, and you're gonna BURN.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on November 28, 2013, 12:18:57 AM
You're all a bunch of apostates, and you're gonna BURN.
You better believe it! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_sY2rjxq6M)
:noodledance:
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on November 28, 2013, 12:18:57 AM
You're all a bunch of apostates, and you're gonna BURN.
Jaa, die nahighillzm, eetz ehxauzting :lulz:
On a side note: Is there a school of thought that concludes that, even if there is a god, with a plan (ergo: meaning) that, ultimately, he too is meaningless? Like, a kinda - turtles all the way down - thing? If not then I'm claiming it!
P3nT1sT3nT1aL1sM
Nihilism strikes me as being kinda pointless.
If you know what I mean. And I think you do.
Quote from: Rex Bologna on November 28, 2013, 03:44:53 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on November 28, 2013, 01:30:10 AM
Quote from: Rex Bologna on November 28, 2013, 12:09:34 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on November 27, 2013, 11:57:23 PM
permission to reuse in things?
Mine, or what Nigel is saying? If mine: fo sho.
Yours. What attribution, if any?
Says Rex in the text, so... let's go with Hoopla. :lulz:
Here is as good a place as any to tell you that I have recently been replacing Hopeless
and Hapless with Hoopless in my conversations (I use these words a lot, I work with truck drivers) in homage to you.
When questioned on it, I look shifty and tell the questioner I cannot tell them about it as Salazorians have ears
all over.
It's been fun.
Quote from: Payne on November 29, 2013, 08:48:53 AM
Quote from: Rex Bologna on November 28, 2013, 03:44:53 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on November 28, 2013, 01:30:10 AM
Quote from: Rex Bologna on November 28, 2013, 12:09:34 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on November 27, 2013, 11:57:23 PM
permission to reuse in things?
Mine, or what Nigel is saying? If mine: fo sho.
Yours. What attribution, if any?
Says Rex in the text, so... let's go with Hoopla. :lulz:
Here is as good a place as any to tell you that I have recently been replacing Hopeless and Hapless with Hoopless in my conversations (I use these words a lot, I work with truck drivers) in homage to you.
When questioned on it, I look shifty and tell the questioner I cannot tell them about it as Salazorians have ears all over.
It's been fun.
:lulz:
Quote from: Payne on November 29, 2013, 08:48:53 AM
Quote from: Rex Bologna on November 28, 2013, 03:44:53 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on November 28, 2013, 01:30:10 AM
Quote from: Rex Bologna on November 28, 2013, 12:09:34 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on November 27, 2013, 11:57:23 PM
permission to reuse in things?
Mine, or what Nigel is saying? If mine: fo sho.
Yours. What attribution, if any?
Says Rex in the text, so... let's go with Hoopla. :lulz:
Here is as good a place as any to tell you that I have recently been replacing Hopeless and Hapless with Hoopless in my conversations (I use these words a lot, I work with truck drivers) in homage to you.
When questioned on it, I look shifty and tell the questioner I cannot tell them about it as Salazorians have ears all over.
It's been fun.
You just made my day.
Wait,
no, my year.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on November 29, 2013, 07:20:43 AM
Nihilism strikes me as being kinda pointless.
If you know what I mean. And I think you do.
:rimshot:
Quote from: Rex Bologna on November 29, 2013, 01:53:43 PM
Quote from: Payne on November 29, 2013, 08:48:53 AM
Quote from: Rex Bologna on November 28, 2013, 03:44:53 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on November 28, 2013, 01:30:10 AM
Quote from: Rex Bologna on November 28, 2013, 12:09:34 AM
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on November 27, 2013, 11:57:23 PM
permission to reuse in things?
Mine, or what Nigel is saying? If mine: fo sho.
Yours. What attribution, if any?
Says Rex in the text, so... let's go with Hoopla. :lulz:
Here is as good a place as any to tell you that I have recently been replacing Hopeless and Hapless with Hoopless in my conversations (I use these words a lot, I work with truck drivers) in homage to you.
When questioned on it, I look shifty and tell the questioner I cannot tell them about it as Salazorians have ears all over.
It's been fun.
You just made my day.
Wait, no, my year.
Thought you'd like it.
I know I'm splitting hairs with this response, but I'm fairly sure what you're describing Rex is just plain old existentialism. "Existence has no intrinsic meaning" and all that.
I mean, metaphysical, epistemological and moral nihilism are pretty damn extreme positions. Nietzsche was approaching metaphysical and epistemological nihilism in his last years of writing, of the sort which says while there may be an objective world, we cannot know anything about it, as all our observations are open to interpretation. And, of course, Nietzsche viewed nihilism as something to be overcome (then again, he viewed everything as something to be overcome).
And almost no-one, except certain closeted academics, have affirmed moral nihilism as a position, for it literally states that there are no such thing as ethics, and all acts are beyond moral judgement.
The key word is, of course, intrinsic. It seems to me that nihilists would argue that since there is no instrinsic meaning, there is therefore no meaning at all (and contrary assertions are delusions), whereas an existentialist would argue that since there is no intrinsic meaning, one can either seek for one in trying to understand the ineffable (whether that is God, or the Absurd), or else, in the more atheistic variations of existentialism, forge one's own meanings, based on subjective experience and knowledge.
Cain comes through once again.
Quote from: Cain on November 30, 2013, 03:20:52 PM
I know I'm splitting hairs with this response, but I'm fairly sure what you're describing Rex is just plain old existentialism. "Existence has no intrinsic meaning" and all that.
I mean, metaphysical, epistemological and moral nihilism are pretty damn extreme positions. Nietzsche was approaching metaphysical and epistemological nihilism in his last years of writing, of the sort which says while there may be an objective world, we cannot know anything about it, as all our observations are open to interpretation. And, of course, Nietzsche viewed nihilism as something to be overcome (then again, he viewed everything as something to be overcome).
And almost no-one, except certain closeted academics, have affirmed moral nihilism as a position, for it literally states that there are no such thing as ethics, and all acts are beyond moral judgement.
The key word is, of course, intrinsic. It seems to me that nihilists would argue that since there is no instrinsic meaning, there is therefore no meaning at all (and contrary assertions are delusions), whereas an existentialist would argue that since there is no intrinsic meaning, one can either seek for one in trying to understand the ineffable (whether that is God, or the Absurd), or else, in the more atheistic variations of existentialism, forge one's own meanings, based on subjective experience and knowledge.
I don't think you're splitting hairs at all, you make an excellent point. I certainly don't deny meaning in any sense. I hadn't considered that.
That's what I'm here for, philosophical precision and, uh, pictures of cats.
I'm kinda surprised you hadn't looked so much at Existentialism though. I thought I remembered you being interested in it...though I would totally understand being put off by Sartre's long exercise in obsfucation, aka Being and Nothingness. Kierkegaard and Camus are far more accessible, and amusing in the case of the former.
That's great stuff, Rex! I really enjoyed reading it (and the rest of the thread).
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on November 29, 2013, 07:20:43 AM
Nihilism strikes me as being kinda pointless.
If you know what I mean. And I think you do.
And you said you hated puns. :lulz:
Quote from: Chelagoras The Boulder on December 04, 2013, 01:23:58 AM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on November 29, 2013, 07:20:43 AM
Nihilism strikes me as being kinda pointless.
If you know what I mean. And I think you do.
And you said you hated puns. :lulz:
That's not a pun.
Quote from: Cain on December 03, 2013, 12:33:34 PM
That's what I'm here for, philosophical precision and, uh, pictures of cats.
I'm kinda surprised you hadn't looked so much at Existentialism though. I thought I remembered you being interested in it...though I would totally understand being put off by Sartre's long exercise in obsfucation, aka Being and Nothingness. Kierkegaard and Camus are far more accessible, and amusing in the case of the former.
M.M. Ponty categorically defenestrates a lamentable Sartre.
Quite likely. I've heard good things about Merleau-Ponty, but I've never had the time to check for myself.
Quote from: Cain on December 03, 2013, 12:33:34 PM
That's what I'm here for, philosophical precision and, uh, pictures of cats.
I'm kinda surprised you hadn't looked so much at Existentialism though. I thought I remembered you being interested in it...though I would totally understand being put off by Sartre's long exercise in obsfucation, aka Being and Nothingness. Kierkegaard and Camus are far more accessible, and amusing in the case of the former.
I'm pretty well grounded in existentialism, for what amounts to a layman. I've read everything Sartre wrote, and though I admittedly needed a guide to take me step by step through
Being and Nothingness, I would argue that is because the book I read is not printed in English, despite being printed in English. I know the words, but the sentences seemed not to add up to anything I could gather meaning from. The guide was more helpful in that respect. Besides that, his thesis is stated extremely directly and succinctly in
Existentialism is a Humanism, which nobody would need a guide for.
I am admittedly less brushed-up on nihilism, despite my affirmation in the OP to being one. I've read mostly second-hand accounts of nihilism, but was under the impression that I basically understood the concept(s). I fully admit that I may be wrong about that.
I would, however, argue that my position is still existential nihilism. Keep in mind, I made no claims about moral or epistemological nihilism, only existential (which probably makes the title incorrect, or at best overly sensational). Others can create meaning for themselves if they so choose, but in all honesty I do not. I mean, I prefer to be happy rather sad, but I'm not certain anyone would consider that a valid "meaning" on existence, apart from hedonists. But, I don't consider myself a hedonist. I'm content not to be happy at all moments. And yes, while others can create meaning for their lives, I don't think their meaning...
means anything. If they find their notions pleasing, well, bully for them, it doesn't change my view of the universe.
I've had a couple drinks this evening, so this may not have made as much sense as I had intended. But, I am open to Cain (or anyone else) picking apart what I have said for holes or mistakes. I am here to learn, and if it turns out I am simply a tried and true existentialist and not an existential nihilist, I am completely fine with that.
Quote from: Hoopla on December 04, 2013, 11:45:06 PM
Quote from: Cain on December 03, 2013, 12:33:34 PM
That's what I'm here for, philosophical precision and, uh, pictures of cats.
I'm kinda surprised you hadn't looked so much at Existentialism though. I thought I remembered you being interested in it...though I would totally understand being put off by Sartre's long exercise in obsfucation, aka Being and Nothingness. Kierkegaard and Camus are far more accessible, and amusing in the case of the former.
I'm pretty well grounded in existentialism, for what amounts to a layman. I've read everything Sartre wrote, and though I admittedly needed a guide to take me step by step through Being and Nothingness, I would argue that is because the book I read is not printed in English, despite being printed in English. I know the words, but the sentences seemed not to add up to anything I could gather meaning from. The guide was more helpful in that respect. Besides that, his thesis is stated extremely directly and succinctly in Existentialism is a Humanism, which nobody would need a guide for.
I am admittedly less brushed-up on nihilism, despite my affirmation in the OP to being one. I've read mostly second-hand accounts of nihilism, but was under the impression that I basically understood the concept(s). I fully admit that I may be wrong about that.
I would, however, argue that my position is still existential nihilism. Keep in mind, I made no claims about moral or epistemological nihilism, only existential (which probably makes the title incorrect, or at best overly sensational). Others can create meaning for themselves if they so choose, but in all honesty I do not. I mean, I prefer to be happy rather sad, but I'm not certain anyone would consider that a valid "meaning" on existence, apart from hedonists. But, I don't consider myself a hedonist. I'm content not to be happy at all moments. And yes, while others can create meaning for their lives, I don't think their meaning... means anything. If they find their notions pleasing, well, bully for them, it doesn't change my view of the universe.
I've had a couple drinks this evening, so this may not have made as much sense as I had intended. But, I am open to Cain (or anyone else) picking apart what I have said for holes or mistakes. I am here to learn, and if it turns out I am simply a tried and true existentialist and not an existential nihilist, I am completely fine with that.
I guess the bare bones of it is that anything beyond what you just said just amounts to frosting on the cake. The trick is to not romanticize obvious: elation is not the same ex-stasis. Happiness is not a value, however, it has meaning when you communicate it to others
Because there is no reason to do so beyond transmitting the wonder itself. If that sounds hokey, just try making sense of it by yourself :horror:
I really like this Hoopla. Cain seems to be right about the analysis but I don't think that takes away from the prose.
Thanks. I'm hardly an expert in any field, so the probability of me being incorrect on terms hovers around 99%.
Upon years of reflection I have decided to join LMNO in the absurdist camp. And I brought s'mores!
Quote from: Hoopla on August 22, 2018, 08:32:57 PM
Upon years of reflection I have decided to join LMNO in the absurdist camp. And I brought s'mores!
i always wondered why no one ever put together absurdism and surrealism as a subculture. Like, you'd think some group of hipsters would jump at the chance to wear the silliest shit in the thrift store while waxing poetic about postmodernism and staring at pictures of giraffes on stilts.
I think you could say the Situationists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situationist_International) rolled that way
How did you derive that?
Quote from: Cramulus on August 24, 2018, 02:34:49 PM
I think you could say the Situationists (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Situationist_International) rolled that way
dude yes, this shit right here.
A guy realized every social movement gets ruined presicely the moment they happen, no surreality would feel surreal after brought to reality.
Quote from: Con-troll on August 26, 2018, 08:17:58 PM
A guy realized every social movement gets ruined presicely the moment they happen, no surreality would feel surreal after brought to reality.
Vorshtein.