http://www.psmag.com/magazines/pacific-standard-cover-story/joe-henrich-weird-ultimatum-game-shaking-up-psychology-economics-53135/
"HAY GUISE MAYBE WE SHOULD SEE HOW OTHER PEOPLES' BRAINS WORK NOW?" :lulz:
That was a great fuckin' article! I learned a little bit about these guys, and especially their explorations with the Asch conformity experiments, last year. I'm looking forward to getting back into psych classes so I can learn more, because social psychology is my favorite. One of the things that is, IMO, incredibly fascinating and important about Henrich and his colleagues' research is that it absolutely blows apart what we think we know about "human nature"; even the shorthands we use here on the board, the idea that "because monkeys" and "ook oook motherfucker", all of these "truths" about human behavior are based on and limited to WESTERN human behavior, and are not, in most cases, biologically rooted or universal at all.
does this mean evo psych can suck my strap on now?
One thing the article kind of skimmed past in a way that could be misleading is that it was Asch himself who challenged the universality of his results by performing his tests in different cultures. He was fascinated to find that cultures we tend to consider more socially conforming, such as the Japanese, actually succumbed less to social pressure in his experiments.
it's a great website, as well, Thanks for digging that out.
Quote from: Pixie on January 04, 2014, 09:12:21 PM
does this mean evo psych can suck my strap on now?
Evolutionary psychology is an interesting budding field of investigation that is closely related to medical anthropology. However, it is, as an infant science, highly speculative and subject to loosely formed standards of rigor, as well as widely, WIDELY misunderstood/misappropriated/misrepresented by popular media.
Quote from: Nigel's Red Velveteen Skinmeat Snacks on January 04, 2014, 09:09:43 PM
That was a great fuckin' article! I learned a little bit about these guys, and especially their explorations with the Asch conformity experiments, last year. I'm looking forward to getting back into psych classes so I can learn more, because social psychology is my favorite. One of the things that is, IMO, incredibly fascinating and important about Henrich and his colleagues' research is that it absolutely blows apart what we think we know about "human nature"; even the shorthands we use here on the board, the idea that "because monkeys" and "ook oook motherfucker", all of these "truths" about human behavior are based on and limited to WESTERN human behavior, and are not, in most cases, biologically rooted or universal at all.
Yeah, I was tickled to see it call out something that always bothered me about (what little I know about) the study of psychology. And the concept that many of our failings as a species are due to cultural imprint rather than biological hardwiring seems like it should be HUGE.
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on January 04, 2014, 09:29:20 PM
Quote from: Nigel's Red Velveteen Skinmeat Snacks on January 04, 2014, 09:09:43 PM
That was a great fuckin' article! I learned a little bit about these guys, and especially their explorations with the Asch conformity experiments, last year. I'm looking forward to getting back into psych classes so I can learn more, because social psychology is my favorite. One of the things that is, IMO, incredibly fascinating and important about Henrich and his colleagues' research is that it absolutely blows apart what we think we know about "human nature"; even the shorthands we use here on the board, the idea that "because monkeys" and "ook oook motherfucker", all of these "truths" about human behavior are based on and limited to WESTERN human behavior, and are not, in most cases, biologically rooted or universal at all.
Yeah, I was tickled to see it call out something that always bothered me about (what little I know about) the study of psychology. And the concept that many of our failings as a species are due to cultural imprint rather than biological hardwiring seems like it should be HUGE.
Oh yeah, absolutely. We make a lot of decisions about how we structure society based on what we think is human nature, when what we're calling "human nature" are cultural traits fostered by a cancerous society of colonialism.
Which, I would add, we do have the option of walking away from. Not individually, but as a society.
Quote from: Nigel's Red Velveteen Skinmeat Snacks on January 04, 2014, 09:12:41 PM
One thing the article kind of skimmed past in a way that could be misleading is that it was Asch himself who challenged the universality of his results by performing his tests in different cultures. He was fascinated to find that cultures we tend to consider more socially conforming, such as the Japanese, actually succumbed less to social pressure in his experiments.
Yeah. It seems every decade or so, some study has come along which undercuts all the basic assumptions of universal rationality, only to be then ignored by the community at large.
When they were conducting the tests on game theory at RAND, the secretaries didn't act as the tests predicted they should...so they just dropped those test results from the final reports.
And then there is all the behavioural economics tests too, some of which were done in the 70s and 80s.
Quote from: Cain on January 04, 2014, 09:54:24 PM
Quote from: Nigel's Red Velveteen Skinmeat Snacks on January 04, 2014, 09:12:41 PM
One thing the article kind of skimmed past in a way that could be misleading is that it was Asch himself who challenged the universality of his results by performing his tests in different cultures. He was fascinated to find that cultures we tend to consider more socially conforming, such as the Japanese, actually succumbed less to social pressure in his experiments.
Yeah. It seems every decade or so, some study has come along which undercuts all the basic assumptions of universal rationality, only to be then ignored by the community at large.
When they were conducting the tests on game theory at RAND, the secretaries didn't act as the tests predicted they should...so they just dropped those test results from the final reports.
And then there is all the behavioural economics tests too, some of which were done in the 70s and 80s.
Right, and of course, how scientific is dropping unexpected/unwanted results? Not at all. But it is fairly common practice.
Good gravy, I have been giving our society too much credit, it seems.
Quote from: Pixie on January 04, 2014, 09:15:00 PM
it's a great website, as well, Thanks for digging that out.
Seconded.
Did you read this one?
http://www.psmag.com/navigation/nature-and-technology/the-senseless-environment-crime-of-the-20th-century-russia-whaling-67774/
QuoteClapham and Ivashchenko now think that Soviet whalers killed at least 180,000 more whales than they reported between 1948 and 1973.
Hey guys, guess why there are so few whales.
:)
...Same author's thoughts on the DSM
http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/real-problem-with-dsm-study-mental-illness-58843/
Quote from: hylierandom, A.D.D. on January 19, 2014, 06:40:42 AM
:)
...Same author's thoughts on the DSM
http://www.psmag.com/navigation/health-and-behavior/real-problem-with-dsm-study-mental-illness-58843/
Yes, which is why the NIMH withdrew support for the DSM last year http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/side-effects/201305/the-nimh-withdraws-support-dsm-5, with a bit of a scathing statement in explanation. http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/2013/transforming-diagnosis.shtml :lol:
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on January 04, 2014, 08:37:27 PM
http://www.psmag.com/magazines/pacific-standard-cover-story/joe-henrich-weird-ultimatum-game-shaking-up-psychology-economics-53135/
"HAY GUISE MAYBE WE SHOULD SEE HOW OTHER PEOPLES' BRAINS WORK NOW?" :lulz:
:lulz:
Good stuff.
The Western/Eastern differences in how we perceive context is one of my favorite social psychology rabbit holes to get lost in.
But I didn't realize how little cross-cultural research actually gets done.
Quote from: Net on January 21, 2014, 12:38:22 AM
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on January 04, 2014, 08:37:27 PM
http://www.psmag.com/magazines/pacific-standard-cover-story/joe-henrich-weird-ultimatum-game-shaking-up-psychology-economics-53135/
"HAY GUISE MAYBE WE SHOULD SEE HOW OTHER PEOPLES' BRAINS WORK NOW?" :lulz:
:lulz:
Good stuff.
The Western/Eastern differences in how we perceive context is one of my favorite social psychology rabbit holes to get lost in.
But I didn't realize how little cross-cultural research actually gets done.
We need way way way more.
Because when we say "Humans", 99.999% of the time, what we actually mean is "Humans in Western colonial civilization". What fascinates me about that, as a person who is into the whole human research subjects scene, is that it means we not only know way less than we think we do about human nature, we also don't even know HOW the pieces we do know fit into the broader scope of human nature. For right now, I am looking for cues from primatologists to help me interpret the results of psychology or even neuroscience research. Even though we Westerners are very resistant to the idea, we humans aren't that special, and share more in common with other animals than we tend to think.
This thread needs to get re-bumped from time to time, I think.
My problem is that I don't know enough. I can only gauge things according to the culture I grew up in.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on January 21, 2014, 06:43:50 PM
My problem is that I don't know enough. I can only gauge things according to the culture I grew up in.
That is exactly everyone's problem. And it will take more than one lifetime to amass the knowledge to rectify that. Even a little bit.
This is the kind of shit that gets me all excited. SO MUCH UNKOWN! :fap: Maybe I can find some of it out, and then it will be NEW KNOWLEDGE!
Quote from: Nigel's Red Velveteen Skinmeat Snacks on January 21, 2014, 06:52:06 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on January 21, 2014, 06:43:50 PM
My problem is that I don't know enough. I can only gauge things according to the culture I grew up in.
That is exactly everyone's problem. And it will take more than one lifetime to amass the knowledge to rectify that.
Fortunately, I rarely leave my culture, and when I do, I usually SHUT UP.
Shutting up in foreign cultures is a pretty good strategy, even if it takes every ounce of will power I have. I learn more.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on January 21, 2014, 06:54:04 PM
Quote from: Nigel's Red Velveteen Skinmeat Snacks on January 21, 2014, 06:52:06 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on January 21, 2014, 06:43:50 PM
My problem is that I don't know enough. I can only gauge things according to the culture I grew up in.
That is exactly everyone's problem. And it will take more than one lifetime to amass the knowledge to rectify that.
Fortunately, I rarely leave my culture, and when I do, I usually SHUT UP.
Shutting up in foreign cultures is a pretty good strategy, even if it takes every ounce of will power I have. I learn more.
It is a very good strategy, and one that it seems most Americans are unable to employ.
But you're a Canuck, so that explains that. :lol:
Quote from: Nigel's Red Velveteen Skinmeat Snacks on January 22, 2014, 06:26:03 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on January 21, 2014, 06:54:04 PM
Quote from: Nigel's Red Velveteen Skinmeat Snacks on January 21, 2014, 06:52:06 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on January 21, 2014, 06:43:50 PM
My problem is that I don't know enough. I can only gauge things according to the culture I grew up in.
That is exactly everyone's problem. And it will take more than one lifetime to amass the knowledge to rectify that.
Fortunately, I rarely leave my culture, and when I do, I usually SHUT UP.
Shutting up in foreign cultures is a pretty good strategy, even if it takes every ounce of will power I have. I learn more.
It is a very good strategy, and one that it seems most Americans are unable to employ.
But you're a Canuck, so that explains that. :lol:
Lies. I am a PATRIOTIC AMERICAN™, not some Northern commie slurpin' on Tim Horton's and watching CURLING.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on January 22, 2014, 06:27:51 PM
Quote from: Nigel's Red Velveteen Skinmeat Snacks on January 22, 2014, 06:26:03 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on January 21, 2014, 06:54:04 PM
Quote from: Nigel's Red Velveteen Skinmeat Snacks on January 21, 2014, 06:52:06 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on January 21, 2014, 06:43:50 PM
My problem is that I don't know enough. I can only gauge things according to the culture I grew up in.
That is exactly everyone's problem. And it will take more than one lifetime to amass the knowledge to rectify that.
Fortunately, I rarely leave my culture, and when I do, I usually SHUT UP.
Shutting up in foreign cultures is a pretty good strategy, even if it takes every ounce of will power I have. I learn more.
It is a very good strategy, and one that it seems most Americans are unable to employ.
But you're a Canuck, so that explains that. :lol:
Lies. I am a PATRIOTIC AMERICAN™, not some Northern commie slurpin' on Tim Horton's and watching CURLING.
What the hell kind of a sport is curling, anyway? :lol:
Shut up. Curling is awesome.
I don't understand it.
Neither do I. To be honest, that's one of the things i like about it. You watch it, and you're all, "what the hell?" and it progresses, very slowly, punctuated by yells of "SCRUB!" and everybody seems drunk.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 22, 2014, 06:38:30 PM
Shut up. Curling is awesome.
No. It is silly. You're not even allowed to tackle people.
Curling would be vastly improved if instead of shoving the rock, you yell it down the ice instead. That is usually what it looks like anyway, plus I would win.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 22, 2014, 07:01:09 PM
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on January 22, 2014, 07:00:20 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 22, 2014, 06:38:30 PM
Shut up. Curling is awesome.
No. It is silly. You're not even allowed to tackle people.
These terms are not mutually exclusive.
The curling thingie doesn't even explode. I feel ripped off every time I see that shit.
Quote from: Dirty Old Uncle Roger on January 22, 2014, 07:00:20 PM
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 22, 2014, 06:38:30 PM
Shut up. Curling is awesome.
No. It is silly. You're not even allowed to tackle people.
You're clearly playing from a different rulebook than I am.
In my rulebook, ALL sports are tackle sports. Including Golf.
Especially Golf.
I have to admit, I take the exact opposite approach when I find myself immersed in an unfamiliar culture. I tend to be more open/friendly/conversational than normal and completely unabashed about it. But I'm also not DOUCHEY about it which is, obviously, an important thing that many people overlook when traveling. It gets me some weird looks sometimes but it also gets me invited to dinner/drinks/party/BBQ/whatever alot and 98% of the time that ends up being the most awesome part of wherever I was and whatever I was doing there.
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on January 22, 2014, 07:11:32 PM
I have to admit, I take the exact opposite approach when I find myself immersed in an unfamiliar culture. I tend to be more open/friendly/conversational than normal and completely unabashed about it. But I'm also not DOUCHEY about it which is, obviously, an important thing that many people overlook when traveling. It gets me some weird looks sometimes but it also gets me invited to dinner/drinks/party/BBQ/whatever alot and 98% of the time that ends up being the most awesome part of wherever I was and whatever I was doing there.
My douche self-detection skills are lacking, so I don't take chances.
Bah. Chances exist for the sole purpose of being taken.
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on January 22, 2014, 07:34:28 PM
Bah. Chances exist for the sole purpose of being taken.
Well, I exercised my right to SHUT UP, and I wound up having 2 berserk Germans haul me around to Heidelberg Castle, 20 beer gardens, and a punk show.
So whatever works.
Oh, absolutely. I'm not arguing the point, just adding to it.
There's also a strong possibility that we are both drawn to places where our respective methods are more likely to work out for the better.
Quote from: Jet City Hustle on January 22, 2014, 07:47:11 PM
There's also a strong possibility that we are both drawn to places where our respective methods are more likely to work out for the better.
Also a possibility that more than one approach works.
I tend to use your approach in the USA, because I know what's going on.
Also, Germany is a little different, but it's still Western, so they share a lot of the same assumptions about how people are that we have.
Quote from: Nigel's Red Velveteen Skinmeat Snacks on January 22, 2014, 10:12:44 PM
Also, Germany is a little different, but it's still Western, so they share a lot of the same assumptions about how people are that we have.
True, but I've also been all over the Middle East, plus South Korea.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 22, 2014, 06:49:06 PM
Neither do I. To be honest, that's one of the things i like about it. You watch it, and you're all, "what the hell?" and it progresses, very slowly, punctuated by yells of "SCRUB!" and everybody seems drunk.
You know, after reading this post, I actually have entirely different feelings about curling. :lol:
BUMP FOR RELEVANCE
This is your brain.
This is your brain on STFU YOURS ISN'T THE ONLY BRAIN.
FUCK WHAT YOU "KNOW" ABOUT NEUROLOGICAL ARCHITECTURE.
JUST SAY NO TO THE CONCEPT OF NEURAL "HARDWIRING".
I didn't fully read this last time I found this thread, but kind of ran into enough references to it elsewhere to think that I'd fully catch it later. Thanks for the bump!
Alty :lol:
There are certainly some behavioral traits that are biologically embedded, but it's surprising not only how malleable most of our social behaviors are, but how deeply people tend to take for granted that the behaviors they are familiar with are the natural and universal human condition.
Is "Think for yourself, Schmuck" as appropriate advice in cultures where the hivemind is healthier, or does it need to be modified in those situations to something like "Be aware that you can think for yourself, but to be honest, your culturally ingrained behaviours are actually a pretty stable foundation for happiness. Schmuck."?
I've always felt that "thinking for yourself" doesn't mean "do the opposite of everyone else," or "ignore outside advice".
If you think it over, and decide the hivemind is a better tool for your current needs, then you should use it.