Where do these assumptions about fat content in the body come from?
Where do the assumptions about how well any one person can lose weight and keep it off through known, effective diet methods come from?
How many people who choose to diet to do by what some may see as the correct way VS harmful ways that most often result in not only regaining of the weight, but even more weight then they had before?
By what standard is an amount of fat, visibly noticeable, considered healthy or unhealthy?
When you say "health" just what exactly do you mean? Can you offer a concise, broadly applicable definition of health? Generally? In this specific context?
We can safely say that BMI is a very, very poor indicator of what amounts to "healthy" weight.
Do you know for certain, by looking at someone, that their fat is causing them health problems? Can you count their cholesterol levels by seeing how far their belly hangs over their belt?
What do you suppose is a more serious problem:
Accepting fat people's bodies for what they are at that precise moment as it is the only body they have at that same moment, and allowing them to believe that they will not be judged harshly for it, thus, supposedly, leading them to get fatter and fatter.
OR
The already existing massive amounts of pressure our society imposes on people, most especially women, to possess a specific body type, that MOST DEFINITELY leads to eating disorders, depression, suicidal thoughts, and an altogether vicious cycle that makes people feel the kind of shame that keeps them away from exercise because they barely want to be seen out of the house, let alone in the gym.
Faust, I am sort of surprised to see you compare the proliferation of gun use leading to more deaths by gun, to obesity.
What medical knowledge do you possess that allows you to make an informed comparison between the two? Not to mention the callousness toward people who really, really already have enough to deal without being made to feel they should DIE because of their bodies.
I ask again:
How do you know, from looking at someone and their body, that they are unhealthy? How do you know their arteries are caked on the inside out with muck that will eventually clog their hearts? Based on what data do you make these broad assumptions?
Yeah, exercise is good for you. Yeah, eating certain foods over others is good for you.
No, none of you here are qualified in any way to make judgements on people about their state of health based off external observations. No one is. Blood work, that's what tells you about what's ticking in the human body. When you can afford it. Not big bellies, not saddle-bags, not love-handles.
Nor are any of you qualified to determine whether someone is able to exercise at all. Not everyone can.
It is often said that there are only few instances when someone can associate their weight with glandular problems or the like. When is it okay apply this acceptance? When they tell you about their thyroid disorder? Just what business is it of anyone's?
Here's the deal:
YOU can deal with YOUR weight, and your own shame, however the hell you want.
You can can avoid dating people who don't fit a body type you are attracted to.
And hell, you can even make broad, sweeping generalizations about a large group of human beings whose physiology you can only make assumptions about. I am definitely not going to try to stop you.
I just have to wonder: why? Why do you even care?
Furthermore, what makes you care more about the dangerous obesity epidemic than the shame that such people must endure?
I don't have much of any kind of medical training. But I do deal with the human body, and I will say this with some great deal of certainty:
Your mind spends a great deal of time in your body, if only in a secondary manner. And when you want to permanently undo something in the body the VERY WORST thing you can do is try to force it.
When you force the body to do something it reacts in a protective and defensive manner.
When you allow the body to be as it is, without trying to change it, without telling it that it is BEING WRONG, it feels safe and secure enough to change.
I think people are like that to.
I think if there is any one thing that causes people to fluctuate wildly in their weight is the pressure they feel. Fat people are told every single day that they aren't worth love, or kindness, or even life itself, because of they way their body is shaped at that exact moment.
They are told this by their family, by every single media outlet, by their doctors.
I may be repeating myself at this point, but I am wholly convinced that the pressure and shame people experiences is way, way, way more harmful than the food you THINK they are eating or the lifestyle you THINK they are maintaining.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17469900
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10449014
http://www.nutritionj.com/content/10/1/9
The thing of it is, you don't know how anyone is predisposed to burn a given amount of calories.
I cannot find the damned link, but there was a study recently done on mice that heavily suggested that mice do not burn the same amount of calories at the same rate given the same level of physical exercise.
So, IF that can be applied to human beings, which is an assumption, but not an unfair one, IMO, then what advice would you give to the millions people out there constantly worrying about the fat on their bodies? With such a potential for variance of metabolic rate in any given human how do you know their fat is cause by their activity level and caloric intake just by looking at them?
Quote from: Alty on March 09, 2014, 10:20:35 PM
Faust, I am sort of surprised to see you compare the proliferation of gun use leading to more deaths by gun, to obesity.
What medical knowledge do you possess that allows you to make an informed comparison between the two? Not to mention the callousness toward people who really, really already have enough to deal without being made to feel they should DIE because of their bodies.
I ask again:
How do you know, from looking at someone and their body, that they are unhealthy? How do you know their arteries are caked on the inside out with muck that will eventually clog their hearts? Based on what data do you make these broad assumptions?
I was comparing the proliferation of obesity to the proliferation of guns, it's dangerous and harmful.
I've no medical knowledge in the least, I can only comment on the statistics
In Ireland at the present time 39% of adults are overweight and 18% are obeses these figures are double what they were ten years ago. In ireland the leading cause of death is heart disease. There are many causes to it, alcoholism being a far more detrimental then obesity but the amount of complications associated with obesity is growing.
As to your second question because it is not the same thing you asked me the first time.
If I looked at a fat person I'm not going to make any assumptions on their health. However If I look at a room full of obese people, I can safely say that there are a number of people there not at their optimal body weight.
I'm not judging them, nor have I an interest in their personal appearance or health, they can be whatever they want to be. But I'm not going to lie, I'm not going to say they aren't an at risk group and I'm not going to say statistically some of them will go on to develop complications because of their lifestyle.
I don't think fat people should be shamed. Fat is not shameful. But I also am not in favor of celebrating fat, because fat is, whether you like this idea or not, strongly correlated with serious health problems and premature death. I don't want people I love to be fat, because I have seen people I cared about die from obesity-related disease.
You may condemn me for "judging" my daughter because I want her to consume less crap food and get more exercise. But fuck you, she doesn't eat well and she doesn't get enough exercise, and I'm her mother and I don't want her to end up diabetic like her father, hypertensive like her mother, or prematurely dead like her grandmother. Seriously, just fuck you, fuck you, fuck you.
Quote from: Faust on March 09, 2014, 10:35:19 PM
Quote from: Alty on March 09, 2014, 10:20:35 PM
Faust, I am sort of surprised to see you compare the proliferation of gun use leading to more deaths by gun, to obesity.
What medical knowledge do you possess that allows you to make an informed comparison between the two? Not to mention the callousness toward people who really, really already have enough to deal without being made to feel they should DIE because of their bodies.
I ask again:
How do you know, from looking at someone and their body, that they are unhealthy? How do you know their arteries are caked on the inside out with muck that will eventually clog their hearts? Based on what data do you make these broad assumptions?
I was comparing the proliferation of obesity to the proliferation of guns, it's dangerous and harmful.
I've no medical knowledge in the least, I can only comment on the statistics
In Ireland at the present time 39% of adults are overweight and 18% are obeses these figures are double what they were ten years ago. In ireland the leading cause of death is heart disease. There are many causes to it, alcoholism being a far more detrimental then obesity but the amount of complications associated with obesity is growing.
As to your second question because it is not the same thing you asked me the first time.
If I looked at a fat person I'm not going to make any assumptions on their health. However If I look at a room full of obese people, I can safely say that there are a number of people there not at their optimal body weight.
I'm not judging them, nor have I an interest in their personal appearance or health, they can be whatever they want to be. But I'm not going to lie, I'm not going to say they aren't an at risk group and I'm not going to say statistically some of them will go on to develop complications because of their lifestyle.
Based on what? On this?
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/obe/risks.html
QuoteAs your body mass index rises, so does your risk for coronary heart disease (CHD). CHD is a condition in which a waxy substance called plaque (plak) builds up inside the coronary arteries. These arteries supply oxygen-rich blood to your heart.
http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/GettingHealthy/WeightManagement/Obesity/Obesity-Information_UCM_307908_Article.jsp
QuotePeople with a body mass index (BMI) of 30 or higher are considered obese.
BMI is bullshit.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106268439&sc=fb&cc=fp
The definition of obesity is based off BMI and only BMI.
Quote from: Tom on March 09, 2014, 10:40:34 PM
I don't think fat people should be shamed. Fat is not shameful. But I also am not in favor of celebrating fat, because fat is, whether you like this idea or not, strongly correlated with serious health problems and premature death. I don't want people I love to be fat, because I have seen people I cared about die from obesity-related disease.
You may condemn me for "judging" my daughter because I want her to consume less crap food and get more exercise. But fuck you, she doesn't eat well and she doesn't get enough exercise, and I'm her mother and I don't want her to end up diabetic like her father, hypertensive like her mother, or prematurely dead like her grandmother. Seriously, just fuck you, fuck you, fuck you.
Right, OK.
Fuck it, then.
Quote from: Alty on March 09, 2014, 10:33:37 PM
The thing of it is, you don't know how anyone is predisposed to burn a given amount of calories.
I cannot find the damned link, but there was a study recently done on mice that heavily suggested that mice do not burn the same amount of calories at the same rate given the same level of physical exercise.
So, IF that can be applied to human beings, which is an assumption, but not an unfair one, IMO, then what advice would you give to the millions people out there constantly worrying about the fat on their bodies? With such a potential for variance of metabolic rate in any given human how do you know their fat is cause by their activity level and caloric intake just by looking at them?
People don't all burn the same amount of calories for the same amount of exercise. Some people are always going to be predisposed to storing fat even if they eat very little. I don't know the technical details (it's not my bag) but I have a friend at UW who is doing research on a very little-known heritable factor that makes a huge difference in weight gain in mice.
It's not my place to tell anyone who isn't my kid to eat better and get more exercise. I don't know what's going on with them, it's none of my fucking business. But don't tell me it isn't my business to try to keep my kids healthy, and don't even start with the fantasy la-la-land dreampipe bullshit that obesity isn't strongly associated with a host of health problems.
Yeah, totally, Alty. My kid's health is none of my business, and I'm harming her by telling her she can't drink soda and needs to go for walks. Just go fuck yourself, asshole.
Nor am I saying that any one magic bullet is going to assist those that are overweight.
Dietary changes help for some and in the society I live in a culture where most of the food that is presented to us is fattening, or contains to much salt, or too much sugar.
For others exercise is all that is needed to improve their metabolic process. I know it doesn't make me lose weight, it makes me bulk up. I am also part of a culture that promotes a sedentary lifestyle.
For some they never vary in weight slim or heavy, it's just their natural weight, they are neither underweight or overweight even if at a glance people would assume so.
Actually no. Nigel, I did not say anything about you or your daughter. I would not presume to do so. If it came across that way, I apologize. Not my intention.
You know your own family history. I don't. Why would I claim to do so?
I am talking about people in general, not people of whom you do, in fact, have medical or historically based knowledge of as that is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT STORY.
But, you know, thanks for immediately assuming I would do such a thing.
Like I don't struggle all the time with how to encourage healthier habits WITHOUT giving her more of a complex than she already has thanks to this fucked-up toxic society.
THAT IS NOT AT ALL WHAT I WAS TRYING TO SAY.
Did I say, Nigel, wake the fuck up and take better care of your kid?
Did I say, HEY ANYONE, YOU SHOULD JUST LET YOUR KIDS BE FAT?
When have I ever presumed to tell people how to raise their children?
Quote from: Alty on March 09, 2014, 10:48:21 PM
Actually no. Nigel, I did not say anything about you or your daughter. I would not presume to do so. If it came across that way, I apologize. Not my intention.
You know your own family history. I don't. Why would I claim to do so?
I am talking about people in general, not people of whom you do, in fact, have medical or historically based knowledge of as that is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT STORY.
But, you know, thanks for immediately assuming I would do such a thing.
Well, you sure as well were talking to someone here in your fired-up preachy voice.
And I certainly did say something earlier today about the issues I have with the fat-acceptance movement; some of which you appeared to specifically take issue with.
I see. So it must have been you. I was talking, specifically, about you and your kid. Because that's the kind of thing I do. All the time.
Quote from: Tom on March 09, 2014, 10:51:16 PM
And I certainly did say something earlier today about the issues I have with the fat-acceptance movement; some of which you appeared to specifically take issue with.
Which means I am saying, ITT, that you're a shitty parent. Got it.
Because I take personal stances like that with people I respect. I must have mean I know your family history better than you do.
We live in a society where excess, empty calories, and sedentary behavior is the norm. That is not healthy. That is not to be encouraged, embraced, or accepted. There is nothing wrong with trying to foster social shift by pointing this out. If anything, obesity and other excess-and-inactivity-related health issues are social issues, not individual issues, and they are therefore to be improved through social action, not individual action.
Quote from: Alty on March 09, 2014, 10:43:09 PM
Quote from: Faust on March 09, 2014, 10:35:19 PM
Quote from: Alty on March 09, 2014, 10:20:35 PM
Faust, I am sort of surprised to see you compare the proliferation of gun use leading to more deaths by gun, to obesity.
What medical knowledge do you possess that allows you to make an informed comparison between the two? Not to mention the callousness toward people who really, really already have enough to deal without being made to feel they should DIE because of their bodies.
I ask again:
How do you know, from looking at someone and their body, that they are unhealthy? How do you know their arteries are caked on the inside out with muck that will eventually clog their hearts? Based on what data do you make these broad assumptions?
I was comparing the proliferation of obesity to the proliferation of guns, it's dangerous and harmful.
I've no medical knowledge in the least, I can only comment on the statistics
In Ireland at the present time 39% of adults are overweight and 18% are obeses these figures are double what they were ten years ago. In ireland the leading cause of death is heart disease. There are many causes to it, alcoholism being a far more detrimental then obesity but the amount of complications associated with obesity is growing.
As to your second question because it is not the same thing you asked me the first time.
If I looked at a fat person I'm not going to make any assumptions on their health. However If I look at a room full of obese people, I can safely say that there are a number of people there not at their optimal body weight.
I'm not judging them, nor have I an interest in their personal appearance or health, they can be whatever they want to be. But I'm not going to lie, I'm not going to say they aren't an at risk group and I'm not going to say statistically some of them will go on to develop complications because of their lifestyle.
Based on what? On this?
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/obe/risks.html
QuoteAs your body mass index rises, so does your risk for coronary heart disease (CHD). CHD is a condition in which a waxy substance called plaque (plak) builds up inside the coronary arteries. These arteries supply oxygen-rich blood to your heart.
http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/GettingHealthy/WeightManagement/Obesity/Obesity-Information_UCM_307908_Article.jsp
QuotePeople with a body mass index (BMI) of 30 or higher are considered obese.
BMI is bullshit.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106268439&sc=fb&cc=fp
The definition of obesity is based off BMI and only BMI.
Um BMI might be bullshit but mechanics is not. You have a pump running in rtyhm in your chest. From the moment it starts to the day it stops it has a finite lifespan before it wears out.
Without complicating it by talking about cholesterol we can take the simple case, same size pump, larger mass to provide for.
Take it on a case by case basis, two people with the same BMI will have different results, one may have no negative effect from his or her weight. Take it on a larger scale and a pattern emerges.
There is no way for me to say that a single person is unhealthy because of their weight (though I will make certain judgements if I hear them struggling for breath which might be unfair), but on a group you can draw some pretty grim conclusions.
Quote from: Tom on March 09, 2014, 10:48:27 PM
Like I don't struggle all the time with how to encourage healthier habits WITHOUT giving her more of a complex than she already has thanks to this fucked-up toxic society.
That sounds REALLY stressful.
The entire core of the issue seems to be encapsulated in that sentence.
Quote from: Tom on March 09, 2014, 10:53:40 PM
We live in a society where excess, empty calories, and sedentary behavior is the norm. That is not healthy. That is not to be encouraged, embraced, or accepted. There is nothing wrong with trying to foster social shift by pointing this out. If anything, obesity and other excess-and-inactivity-related health issues are social issues, not individual issues, and they are therefore to be improved through social action, not individual action.
Oh, we are having a debate now. A possibly heated debate about social health issues?
News to me. I thought I was shitting all over your parenting.
Quote from: Alty on March 09, 2014, 10:53:13 PM
Because I take personal stances like that with people I respect. I must have mean I know your family history better than you do.
I didn't see a lot of wiggle room for concerned family members back there. In fact, the only mention of family was negative. So pardon me if I was supposed to write in an exception for myself, because I'm "not like all the others", or whatever.
Quote from: Alty on March 09, 2014, 10:56:28 PM
Quote from: Tom on March 09, 2014, 10:53:40 PM
We live in a society where excess, empty calories, and sedentary behavior is the norm. That is not healthy. That is not to be encouraged, embraced, or accepted. There is nothing wrong with trying to foster social shift by pointing this out. If anything, obesity and other excess-and-inactivity-related health issues are social issues, not individual issues, and they are therefore to be improved through social action, not individual action.
Oh, we are having a debate now. A possibly heated debate about social health issues?
News to me. I thought I was shitting all over your parenting.
No, you were shitting all over my perspective on obesity, because it isn't my place to judge or think I know what's healthy for
anyone else ever, remember?
Quote from: Alty on March 09, 2014, 10:20:35 PM
YOU can deal with YOUR weight, and your own shame, however the hell you want.
Just to address this in particular;
I am 15-ish pounds overweight. My blood sugar is stable, my cholesterol is excellent, I look pretty damn good, especially for going-on-43 and having had three kids, and I really, really need to lose weight. Not because I'm ashamed of how I look.
It's because I am dangerously hypertensive and at high risk for a stroke, and losing 15-20 pounds would probably bring me out of the red zone.
Soooooo
I think you should take your judgement-on-judgement and reconsider what you're saying and how you're coming across to people who have REAL concerns about their own excess fat and that of their families, because you may be on fire with righteous indignation but it isn't YOURS to be on fire WITH.
Im "skinny" by society's standard, because i weight around 61kg and am about 6'2 tall... the thing is, that i live a kind of unhealthy sedentary life, and i know i have a problem with my fatty percentage (Im ok with my weight, i just think i need to transform the fat percentage to muscle percentage).
End result? Im unhealthy and i dont get judged while there are people with "bigger bodies" that probably are healthier with more muscle composition that get tons of shit.
I have gone out with a girl who would in BMI terms be quantified as dangerously anorexic, It was her choice, I know this because she was capable of gaining weight when she wanted to.
Is it OK for her to be that thin? Sure, it is none of my business. Do I have to delude myself that she was healthy? No.
A great many of my friends are obese, have any of them health complications because of it? Some yes. Is it any of my business, no. Do I have to pretend that they are healthy? fuck no.
I fall into the fat range of the BMI scale, it doesn't really bother me and I don't consider myself unhealthy because of it, I'm a tall guy. (Am I healthy? Fuck no but probably not because of my weight)
The BMI is a rule of thumb, an average taken on a large set, not a figure set in stone to say this is right and this is wrong, the over/underweight is very much an approximation. But the further ranges from the median ARE high values, there is a difference of 4.5 stone from nominal weight to obese for a person my height.
Taken on a large enough sample and I can with confidence say that a sizeable proportion of them will be prone to health issues because of it.
Quote from: The Johnny on March 09, 2014, 11:08:24 PM
Im "skinny" by society's standard, because i weight around 61kg and am about 6'2 tall... the thing is, that i live a kind of unhealthy sedentary life, and i know i have a problem with my fatty percentage (Im ok with my weight, i just think i need to transform the fat percentage to muscle percentage).
End result? Im unhealthy and i dont get judged while there are people with "bigger bodies" that probably are healthier with more muscle composition that get tons of shit.
Yes there is a social stigma with overweight people and you are on the very low end for a person your height. But I was only a stone heavier than you until I hit 23 when I gained about three stone in a year.
And it's true underweight (unless they are quiet obviously emaciated) don't get targeted for bullying or any of that.
No one is saying that the bullying is ok. For overweight people, or for underweight or anyone else.
But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be awareness of how unhealthy having a polarised weight in either direction is.
Quote from: Faust on March 09, 2014, 11:16:16 PM
Quote from: The Johnny on March 09, 2014, 11:08:24 PM
Im "skinny" by society's standard, because i weight around 61kg and am about 6'2 tall... the thing is, that i live a kind of unhealthy sedentary life, and i know i have a problem with my fatty percentage (Im ok with my weight, i just think i need to transform the fat percentage to muscle percentage).
End result? Im unhealthy and i dont get judged while there are people with "bigger bodies" that probably are healthier with more muscle composition that get tons of shit.
Yes there is a social stigma with overweight people and you are on the very low end for a person your height. But I was only a stone heavier than you until I hit 23 when I gained about three stone in a year.
And it's true underweight (unless they are quiet obviously emaciated) don't get targeted for bullying or any of that.
No one is saying that the bullying is ok. For overweight people, or for underweight or anyone else.
But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be awareness of how unhealthy having a polarised weight in either direction.
Well, im 27 just for reference... at my peak health moment i was 65kg but pure muscle and i did get A LOT of positive attention... contrast with my worst moment where i got to 53kg of pure bones and fat and i didnt get any shit for it - now lets say, if by the same ammount ive been UNDER, imagine if i was OVER, how much shit i would had gotten... calculating that "supposed ideal weight" is around 75, doing the under-to-over comparison, the example would be: 97kg.
Im not sure how 6'2 with 100kg (220lbs) even looks like, but im sure no positive comments would come out of it.
I'm sorry if my comment made you feel bad alty. I was being 100% facetious with it when I said it's a self correcting problem like gun ownership. I am staunchly anti gun ownership and am staunchly against a society that continues to grow in obesity numbers but I don't want or believe a single person should die in either case. I think both outcomes are avoidable.
Bear here!
The only things that set me off are.
1.) Telling fat people who are happy that they're not really happy because lolfatlol.
2.) People who smoke cigarettes, and lecture others about the health problems.
3.) Fat people telling me I should care when non-fat people call me fat. I don't care unless they're trying to dehumanize me. I mean beyond petty cheap insults.
Alty, I LOVE how you look out for people when they're being belittled, but remember there's always a line when you're not part of that said group. My wife will never understand what it's like being Hispanic, and I'll never understand what it's like being a woman, or pansexual.
Nigel, I agree with you. I pretty much have to re-teach my parents how to cook lower GI meals. My mother is type 1 diabetic, and my dad is type 2 diabetic. I've had to make sure they understand that anything with HFC is not a great choice for them. This has been going on for them since I was 10. I have to tell them to stop buying canned, and boxed things. Focus on buying frozen veggies, and staying away from red meat all together. Since they're both 58+ I don't mind taking care of them, or looking out for them because fuck the free market, and fuck the idea of sending them to a home when they're older.
My personal goals are to minimize the burden on my joints. Has nothing to do with vanity, but I do enjoy having larger selection of clothes to wear since I dropped a few sizes.
Carry on.
Quote from: Faust on March 09, 2014, 11:16:16 PM
Quote from: The Johnny on March 09, 2014, 11:08:24 PM
Im "skinny" by society's standard, because i weight around 61kg and am about 6'2 tall... the thing is, that i live a kind of unhealthy sedentary life, and i know i have a problem with my fatty percentage (Im ok with my weight, i just think i need to transform the fat percentage to muscle percentage).
End result? Im unhealthy and i dont get judged while there are people with "bigger bodies" that probably are healthier with more muscle composition that get tons of shit.
Yes there is a social stigma with overweight people and you are on the very low end for a person your height. But I was only a stone heavier than you until I hit 23 when I gained about three stone in a year.
And it's true underweight (unless they are quiet obviously emaciated) don't get targeted for bullying or any of that.
No one is saying that the bullying is ok. For overweight people, or for underweight or anyone else.
But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be awareness of how unhealthy having a polarised weight in either direction is.
Just as an aside, in the US underweight girls also are subject to bullying. I have to assume that boys are, too. Girls get accused of being anorexic, teased for being bony, having a flat chest, and so on. "Pointy as a sack of wet mice" <---- actual saying about thin girls.
The US is basically absolutely brutal to anyone
who doesn't live up to a ridiculous ideal standard of beauty. Come to think of it, girls with "ideal" bodies are also subject to harassment, either being accused of dressing like whores or of being frumpy, of being too flirty or of being stuck up. There's no fucking winning.
Quote from: /b/earman on March 09, 2014, 11:47:03 PM
Bear here!
The only things that set me off are.
1.) Telling fat people who are happy that they're not really happy because lolfatlol.
2.) People who smoke cigarettes, and lecture others about the health problems.
3.) Fat people telling me I should care when non-fat people call me fat. I don't care unless they're trying to dehumanize me. I mean beyond petty cheap insults.
Alty, I LOVE how you look out for people when they're being belittled, but remember there's always a line when you're not part of that said group. My wife will never understand what it's like being Hispanic, and I'll never understand what it's like being a woman, or pansexual.
Nigel, I agree with you. I pretty much have to re-teach my parents how to cook lower GI meals. My mother is type 1 diabetic, and my dad is type 2 diabetic. I've had to make sure they understand that anything with HFC is not a great choice for them. This has been going on for them since I was 10. I have to tell them to stop buying canned, and boxed things. Focus on buying frozen veggies, and staying away from red meat all together. Since they're both 58+ I don't mind taking care of them, or looking out for them because fuck the free market, and fuck the idea of sending them to a home when they're older.
My personal goals are to minimize the burden on my joints. Has nothing to do with vanity, but I do enjoy having larger selection of clothes to wear since I dropped a few sizes.
Carry on.
Bear, bringing the reasonableness. <3 you!
Alty, I'm sorry I went off like a gun on you. Your OP hit some hot buttons for me and I reacted badly.
Quote from: Tom on March 10, 2014, 12:36:00 AM
Quote from: /b/earman on March 09, 2014, 11:47:03 PM
Bear here!
The only things that set me off are.
1.) Telling fat people who are happy that they're not really happy because lolfatlol.
2.) People who smoke cigarettes, and lecture others about the health problems.
3.) Fat people telling me I should care when non-fat people call me fat. I don't care unless they're trying to dehumanize me. I mean beyond petty cheap insults.
Alty, I LOVE how you look out for people when they're being belittled, but remember there's always a line when you're not part of that said group. My wife will never understand what it's like being Hispanic, and I'll never understand what it's like being a woman, or pansexual.
Nigel, I agree with you. I pretty much have to re-teach my parents how to cook lower GI meals. My mother is type 1 diabetic, and my dad is type 2 diabetic. I've had to make sure they understand that anything with HFC is not a great choice for them. This has been going on for them since I was 10. I have to tell them to stop buying canned, and boxed things. Focus on buying frozen veggies, and staying away from red meat all together. Since they're both 58+ I don't mind taking care of them, or looking out for them because fuck the free market, and fuck the idea of sending them to a home when they're older.
My personal goals are to minimize the burden on my joints. Has nothing to do with vanity, but I do enjoy having larger selection of clothes to wear since I dropped a few sizes.
Carry on.
Bear, bringing the reasonableness. <3 you!
Alty, I'm sorry I went off like a gun on you. Your OP hit some hot buttons for me and I reacted badly.
So this is what God feels like when it has a gun!
I'm a little weary of advocacy.
I've had it up to my bottom lip with hearing about this shit.
I have to say, I am not very fond of the "I can't believe you're such an asshole that you would think that I meant the shitty generalization I made included YOU" thing.
I just have this horrible fucking premonition.
If PD goes down this road again, I'm taking some fucking time off. Seriously. I can't tolerate another August 2012. Mostly because it makes me not want to give a fuck about ANYONE'S problems.
Quote from: Tom on March 09, 2014, 10:53:40 PM
We live in a society where excess, empty calories, and sedentary behavior is the norm. That is not healthy. That is not to be encouraged, embraced, or accepted. There is nothing wrong with trying to foster social shift by pointing this out. If anything, obesity and other excess-and-inactivity-related health issues are social issues, not individual issues, and they are therefore to be improved through social action, not individual action.
I'm in pretty much complete agreement with this. I won't judge someone personally for their weight or body shape. And I'm not afraid to call other people out for doing so in my presence. But there's a huge difference between that and saying that there's not a problem with obesity in our society or that obesity isn't inherently dangerous and unhealthful. That I am not personally qualified to judge an individual person's level of health or whether or not they are obese in no way negates the larger fact at play here.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 10, 2014, 01:41:36 AM
I'm a little weary of advocacy.
I've had it up to my bottom lip with hearing about this shit.
Yeah, but like me, how much can you actually put yourself there? I am in a perpetual stage of SHUT UP SHUT UP SERIOUSLY ARE YOU EVEN STILL TALKING MY DOG IS DRUNK SHUT UP.
Quote from: Tom on March 10, 2014, 12:33:56 AM
Quote from: Faust on March 09, 2014, 11:16:16 PM
Quote from: The Johnny on March 09, 2014, 11:08:24 PM
Im "skinny" by society's standard, because i weight around 61kg and am about 6'2 tall... the thing is, that i live a kind of unhealthy sedentary life, and i know i have a problem with my fatty percentage (Im ok with my weight, i just think i need to transform the fat percentage to muscle percentage).
End result? Im unhealthy and i dont get judged while there are people with "bigger bodies" that probably are healthier with more muscle composition that get tons of shit.
Yes there is a social stigma with overweight people and you are on the very low end for a person your height. But I was only a stone heavier than you until I hit 23 when I gained about three stone in a year.
And it's true underweight (unless they are quiet obviously emaciated) don't get targeted for bullying or any of that.
No one is saying that the bullying is ok. For overweight people, or for underweight or anyone else.
But that doesn't mean there shouldn't be awareness of how unhealthy having a polarised weight in either direction is.
Just as an aside, in the US underweight girls also are subject to bullying. I have to assume that boys are, too. Girls get accused of being anorexic, teased for being bony, having a flat chest, and so on. "Pointy as a sack of wet mice" <---- actual saying about thin girls.
The US is basically absolutely brutal to anyone who doesn't live up to a ridiculous ideal standard of beauty. Come to think of it, girls with "ideal" bodies are also subject to harassment, either being accused of dressing like whores or of being frumpy, of being too flirty or of being stuck up. There's no fucking winning.
Yeah, the bigotry you see even for the archetypical pretty girls is that they must be stupid. Basically girls get the shit end of the stick all the time.
Quote from: Alty on March 09, 2014, 10:20:35 PM
When you force the body to do something it reacts in a protective and defensive manner.
When you allow the body to be as it is, without trying to change it, without telling it that it is BEING WRONG, it feels safe and secure enough to change.
Really? You actually just said that? :lulz:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/07/26/fat_shaming_leads_to_weight_gain_not_loss_according_to_a_new_study.html
QuoteThe debate over the fat acceptance movement often gets lost in the weeds of debating whether obesity is the cause of problems like heart disease and diabetes, or if it's just a correlation and therefore it's perfectly possible to be a fit fat person. But whether it is objectively unhealthy to be fat, shaming people over being fat is a bad idea no matter how you look at it. All shaming someone gets you is a person who feels bad and is probably making even more unhealthy choices because of it. Regardless of where science falls on the subject of "is fat bad for you?" we know that shame absolutely is.
http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/is-psychology-making-us-sick/201301/shame-body-image-and-weight-loss
QuoteAnother all too common example of shaming occurs when a person looks in the mirror (or steps on a scale, or puts on some clothes) and doesn't like what they see. "My arms are flabby," "My belly rolls in on itself," "My thighs are too big," This shirt looks terrible on me." In fact, a Glamour Magazine study found that 97% of women are "cruel to their bodies" every day.[1] These criticisms are an assault—they have the capacity to hurt, to injure, but they do not shame. However, the story rarely stops there. Another part of the person, an internalized witness, says, "You are lazy;" "Why did you eat that ice cream last night?" How come you can't stay on a diet?" "You eat too much comfort food," "Can't you deal with your psychological problems and lose more weight?" This internalized witness, this "voice," ignores that there was an assault, demonstrates no compassion for the pain, and blames the person (the victim) for their suffering. Making matters even more egregious, many people, especially girls, perceive themselves to be overweight even when they are not! (e.g. a Teen Magazine Study found that 50 to 70 percent of normal-weight girls think they are overweight.[2])
Interestingly, someone pointed this out to me yesterday...
http://www.queerty.com/photos-guys-with-bellies-drive-us-bonkers-20140309/
(Possibly NSFW, depending on how draconian your workplace is.)
uhhh, Not sure I wanted to click that at work.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on March 10, 2014, 11:32:44 AM
Interestingly, someone pointed this out to me yesterday...
http://www.queerty.com/photos-guys-with-bellies-drive-us-bonkers-20140309/
(Possibly NSFW, depending on how draconian your workplace is.)
QuoteSure, a six-pack may be nice to look at, but maintaing one is another story. It requires regular abdominal exercises which — let's be honest — nobody wants to deal with. Anyone who says they love doing crunches is lying.
I regularly hang out with dozens of people who do rotational crunches as part of their hobby. The ones who are really into it all have six packs so, yeah, I call bullshit :argh!:
Quote from: Faust on March 10, 2014, 11:34:15 AM
uhhh, Not sure I wanted to click that at work.
Sorry about that. I realized as I posted that I should probably have tagged that, so I went back and updated it.
Too late, unfortunately.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on March 10, 2014, 11:46:42 AM
Quote from: Faust on March 10, 2014, 11:34:15 AM
uhhh, Not sure I wanted to click that at work.
Sorry about that. I realized as I posted that I should probably have tagged that, so I went back and updated it.
Too late, unfortunately.
It's ok, I've no boss checking my traffic, just the guy beside me going "What the fuck are you looking up?"
Quote from: Tom on March 10, 2014, 06:19:56 AM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 10, 2014, 01:41:36 AM
I'm a little weary of advocacy.
I've had it up to my bottom lip with hearing about this shit.
Yeah, but like me, how much can you actually put yourself there? I am in a perpetual stage of SHUT UP SHUT UP SERIOUSLY ARE YOU EVEN STILL TALKING MY DOG IS DRUNK SHUT UP.
Dunno. Rant to follow.
Okay, I'd like to address a few things.
First, a long time ago, a guy known here as "Corbet E Renaurd" managed to more or less single-handedly end the great privilege fiasco by actually EXPLAINING what privilege meant, in terms that anyone could understand (even cavemen such as myself). He said something like:
QuotePrivilige is something that happens to you, not something you do.
This of course means that if you earned it or did something, it wasn't privilege. An olympic gold medalist figure skater is not operating on privilege, but rather a lifetime of hard work.
Now, I've been to the poisonous fucking cesspool "this is thin privilege" over on tumblr, and there's a few things worth mentioning.
1. "Thin privilege" does not fucking exist. Fat shaming exists, but thin privilege does not. This is because, with very few exceptions, people who are thin or fat are that way based on things they do or do not do.
2. Said tumblr is a collection of whinging fucks. The place is toxic as hell. There is nothing of redeeming value there, and nobody there - so far - has had a fucking thing to say other than some absolute BULLSHIT about being overweight not being a health issue. Anyone who says that carrying around an unnecessary 50+ pounds isn't going to fuck up your back, hips, knees, ankles, and feet is a FUCKING RETARD...Not to mention all the fun stuff that happens with an enlarged heart and/or high blood pressure. What you have at that particular "Cause" is a pile of self-indulgent shit heads who insist on screeching that the world isn't how it is, it's how they'd LIKE it to be. In other words, DUMBFUCKS.
3. Said tumblr is also a fart blanket of the FIRST FUCKING ORDER. Anyone wants to crawl under it, I ain't here to stop you. But I will say that I don't have much use for fart-huffers. I am unsure if I am alone in this. We already HAD a fucking Garbo. Shit, that goes for the whole fucking site, excepting the goofballs that are just there to post hilarious pics.
4. Implying that parents are evil and wrong or just bad parents because they would rather their children aren't fat is the GODDAMN STUPIDEST FUCKING THING I HAVE EVER HEARD ON THIS GODDAMN BOARD, and it's INSULTING AS HELL as well as being FUCKING WRONG-HEADED, and "I wasn't talking about you" DOESN'T CUT THE FUCKING MUSTARD. Teaching your kid that being overweight is just as "valid" as being is shape is BAD PARENTING. Whether or not the kid listens is on the kid.
5. This bears repeating: THE UNIVERSE DOES NOT CHANGE ITS RULES BECAUSE SOME WHINGING FUCKWAD - ON TUMBLR OR ELSEWHERE - DOES NOT LIKE THOSE RULES. Doesn't matter if they're claiming that being overweight is healthy (dumbasses) or if they're claiming that the big bang isn't a thing because Jesus.
Also, the very IDEA that thin is a privilege in a world full of hungry people is fucking hilarious. Bowel-voiding, scream your spleen out hilarious.
AMERICA
FUCK YEAH.
You would think there was no such thing as food insecurity here.
:cry:
Anyway, I'm about out of patience for the month so I probably won't be around much for a while.
Quote from: Tom on March 10, 2014, 03:31:38 PM
AMERICA
FUCK YEAH.
You would think there was no such thing as food insecurity here.
:cry:
Anyway, I'm about out of patience for the month so I probably won't be around much for a while.
:sad:
Well, that about does it, then. May as well rent the place out as a morgue.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 10, 2014, 02:40:11 PM
Okay, I'd like to address a few things.
First, a long time ago, a guy known here as "Corbet E Renaurd" managed to more or less single-handedly end the great privilege fiasco by actually EXPLAINING what privilege meant, in terms that anyone could understand (even cavemen such as myself). He said something like:
QuotePrivilige is something that happens to you, not something you do.
This of course means that if you earned it or did something, it wasn't privilege. An olympic gold medalist figure skater is not operating on privilege, but rather a lifetime of hard work.
Now, I've been to the poisonous fucking cesspool "this is thin privilege" over on tumblr, and there's a few things worth mentioning.
1. "Thin privilege" does not fucking exist. Fat shaming exists, but thin privilege does not. This is because, with very few exceptions, people who are thin or fat are that way based on things they do or do not do.
2. Said tumblr is a collection of whinging fucks. The place is toxic as hell. There is nothing of redeeming value there, and nobody there - so far - has had a fucking thing to say other than some absolute BULLSHIT about being overweight not being a health issue. Anyone who says that carrying around an unnecessary 50+ pounds isn't going to fuck up your back, hips, knees, ankles, and feet is a FUCKING RETARD...Not to mention all the fun stuff that happens with an enlarged heart and/or high blood pressure. What you have at that particular "Cause" is a pile of self-indulgent shit heads who insist on screeching that the world isn't how it is, it's how they'd LIKE it to be. In other words, DUMBFUCKS.
3. Said tumblr is also a fart blanket of the FIRST FUCKING ORDER. Anyone wants to crawl under it, I ain't here to stop you. But I will say that I don't have much use for fart-huffers. I am unsure if I am alone in this. We already HAD a fucking Garbo. Shit, that goes for the whole fucking site, excepting the goofballs that are just there to post hilarious pics.
4. Implying that parents are evil and wrong or just bad parents because they would rather their children aren't fat is the GODDAMN STUPIDEST FUCKING THING I HAVE EVER HEARD ON THIS GODDAMN BOARD, and it's INSULTING AS HELL as well as being FUCKING WRONG-HEADED, and "I wasn't talking about you" DOESN'T CUT THE FUCKING MUSTARD. Teaching your kid that being overweight is just as "valid" as being is shape is BAD PARENTING. Whether or not the kid listens is on the kid.
5. This bears repeating: THE UNIVERSE DOES NOT CHANGE ITS RULES BECAUSE SOME WHINGING FUCKWAD - ON TUMBLR OR ELSEWHERE - DOES NOT LIKE THOSE RULES. Doesn't matter if they're claiming that being overweight is healthy (dumbasses) or if they're claiming that the big bang isn't a thing because Jesus.
Fucking nailed it on ten counts (prolly more but I ran out of fingers)
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 10, 2014, 01:48:41 AM
I just have this horrible fucking premonition.
If PD goes down this road again, I'm taking some fucking time off. Seriously. I can't tolerate another August 2012. Mostly because it makes me not want to give a fuck about ANYONE'S problems.
Seconded, though i would wish there was a combination word for weary and horrible.
Quote from: :regret: on March 10, 2014, 06:33:25 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 10, 2014, 01:48:41 AM
I just have this horrible fucking premonition.
If PD goes down this road again, I'm taking some fucking time off. Seriously. I can't tolerate another August 2012. Mostly because it makes me not want to give a fuck about ANYONE'S problems.
Seconded, though i would wish there was a combination word for weary and horrible.
(http://www.wanttoteach.com/Tucson.jpg)
Beat me to it.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on March 10, 2014, 06:34:49 PM
Beat me to it.
It almost looks habitable, doesn't it?
1. That's during monsoon season.
2. On the other side of that mountain range, it's Road Warrior until you get to Utah.
That being said, I don't think Alty has a bad perspective.
Being (fat-)shamed is worse than being fat. Yes, being fat is likely to be bad for your health (notice the word likely there? it is important), being shamed is always bad for your health.
Let's not polarize here, we should be able to agree that, all other factors being the same, being fatter than average is bad for you. Hell, in our current culture, being averagely fat isn't actually all that healthy either. Statistics are fun that way.
There are many other things that are worse, of course: Alcohol, smoking, stress, bad diets, bad genes, adrenalin addiction, etcetera.
Too fat is bad, too thin is bad, shamed is bad(did you notice the lack of 'too'?), and POLARISATION IS BAD.
All of you should start to consider the position of your partners in this discussion. Apparantly i need to explain here that in a discussion you have partners, not adversaries. Nigel has a kid with weight issues (first i heard about it, but good luck with that Nigel and Nigel-spawn.) and Alty-GF regularly gets fat-shamed. Both are fookin horrible and we as a community should be nicer about that kind of shit.
I know, i'm a dick and I shouldn't lecture others on niceness... no FUCK that, you assholes better behave or i will hunt you all down and lick you in uncomfortable ways!
Quote from: :regret: on March 10, 2014, 06:45:40 PM
That being said, I don't think Alty has a bad perspective.
Being (fat-)shamed is worse than being fat. Yes, being fat is likely to be bad for your health (notice the word likely there? it is important), being shamed is always bad for your health.
Let's not polarize here, we should be able to agree that, all other factors being the same, being fatter than average is bad for you. Hell, in our current culture, being averagely fat isn't actually all that healthy either. Statistics are fun that way.
There are many other things that are worse, of course: Alcohol, smoking, stress, bad diets, bad genes, adrenalin addiction, etcetera.
Too fat is bad, too thin is bad, shamed is bad(did you notice the lack of 'too'?), and POLARISATION IS BAD.
All of you should start to consider the position of your partners in this discussion. Apparantly i need to explain here that in a discussion you have partners, not adversaries. Nigel has a kid with weight issues (first i heard about it, but good luck with that Nigel and Nigel-spawn.) and Alty-GF regularly gets fat-shamed. Both are fookin horrible and we as a community should be nicer about that kind of shit.
I know, i'm a dick and I shouldn't lecture others on niceness... no FUCK that, you assholes better behave or i will hunt you all down and lick you in uncomfortable ways!
There is no excuse for shaming people unless the shaming has to do with an unethical or dishonorable action on their part. For example, I'm fine with shaming a person who rips off the elderly.
"Fat-shaming", "slut-shaming", etc are all inexcusable. No exceptions.
However, this doesn't change the fact that being overweight IS a health risk, nor does it change the fact that tumblr is a toxic fucking pesthaus.
Fat-shaming is always bullshit and there's no excuse for it. I do agree with Alty that it makes it even harder for people to lose weight, and what's more, it makes it even harder for family members to even express concern about weight issues because societal fat-shaming has laden fat with all these value judgements, and that, honestly, SUCKS. I don't EVER mention my daughter's weight, because she is all too aware. I work hard to frame every suggestion as positive encouragement, and not as negative shaming.
The issues I had with Alty's OP in this thread were not that he was saying that fat-shaming is bad. The issues I had were the combination of the broad and aggressive brush with which he painted everyone, announced that none of us know what we're talking about or even have a place to speak, informed us that we're doing more harm than good by considering obesity unhealthy, and chastised us about dealing with our own shame about our fat bodies. But all of those things, as unnecessarily offensive as they are, would be more easily overlooked if he had a dog in this race, if this righteous indignation he was pouring over his dear readers was actually over an issue that he owns and struggles with, and not one that he is simply coming to be the champion of, which is, you know, kind of vaguely patronizing in the same way Mr. Language's Championing of the Hispanics was.
I am not Forever Mad at Alty or anything like that. Alty, if you're reading, I think I understand where you were coming from. The problem is, it's more complex an issue than you make it out to be, and being a massage therapist does not qualify you to dictate to everyone else how to think or feel about obesity. If you respect other people, you might want that respect to show in the way you address them, because you can't reasonably expect everyone who you consider an exception to your sweeping statements to assume you don't mean them, any more than someone can, say, make disparaging comments about religious people and then think it fixes everything to say "Well I didn't mean YOU".
Well said.