http://www.turnto10.com/story/26044240/official-malaysian-plane-shot-down-over-ukraine
Oh this is going to be a shitshow if it's actually true and not the media spinning it.
Quote from: The Suu on July 17, 2014, 05:16:06 PM
http://www.turnto10.com/story/26044240/official-malaysian-plane-shot-down-over-ukraine
Oh this is going to be a shitshow if it's actually true and not the media spinning it.
Damn. I can see no reason why Ukraine would shoot it down... smells like Russians to me. But, what do I know?
Well the BBC seems to kind of believe it
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/
Quote from: Hoopla on July 17, 2014, 05:23:11 PM
Quote from: The Suu on July 17, 2014, 05:16:06 PM
http://www.turnto10.com/story/26044240/official-malaysian-plane-shot-down-over-ukraine
Oh this is going to be a shitshow if it's actually true and not the media spinning it.
Damn. I can see no reason why Ukraine would shoot it down... smells like Russians to me. But, what do I know?
I would guess Russians as well.
Oh shit.
Wait, that was at 10,000 feet. That's far too high to hit without radar guidance. Russia...I didn't think you were stupid enough to give the sepratists more than MANPADs.
Quote from: Cain on July 17, 2014, 05:41:15 PM
Oh shit.
Wait, that was at 10,000 feet. That's far too high to hit without radar guidance. Russia...I didn't think you were stupid enough to give the sepratists more than MANPADs.
DING.
"So, you gonna intervene NOW, or do I have to napalm a truck full of puppies?"
Quote from: Cain on July 17, 2014, 05:41:15 PM
Oh shit.
Wait, that was at 10,000 feet. That's far too high to hit without radar guidance. Russia...I didn't think you were stupid enough to give the sepratists more than MANPADs.
There is a dead rat in there somewhere. This doesn't add up.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on July 17, 2014, 05:51:14 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 17, 2014, 05:41:15 PM
Oh shit.
Wait, that was at 10,000 feet. That's far too high to hit without radar guidance. Russia...I didn't think you were stupid enough to give the sepratists more than MANPADs.
There is a dead rat in there somewhere. This doesn't add up.
That. Makes no fucking sense at all. Passenger roster available yet? Though I doubt it would be a well known name.
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 17, 2014, 05:57:44 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on July 17, 2014, 05:51:14 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 17, 2014, 05:41:15 PM
Oh shit.
Wait, that was at 10,000 feet. That's far too high to hit without radar guidance. Russia...I didn't think you were stupid enough to give the sepratists more than MANPADs.
There is a dead rat in there somewhere. This doesn't add up.
That. Makes no fucking sense at all. Passenger roster available yet? Though I doubt it would be a well known name.
That's not restricted airspace either, from what I understand. It's a pretty heavily traveled corridor from planes from Northern Europe toward the Middle East and Asia.
I have no idea what it takes to launch a radar guided missile toward a plane at cruising altitude, but I suspect it's more than "point and click."
Quote from: Junkenstein on July 17, 2014, 05:57:44 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on July 17, 2014, 05:51:14 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 17, 2014, 05:41:15 PM
Oh shit.
Wait, that was at 10,000 feet. That's far too high to hit without radar guidance. Russia...I didn't think you were stupid enough to give the sepratists more than MANPADs.
There is a dead rat in there somewhere. This doesn't add up.
That. Makes no fucking sense at all. Passenger roster available yet? Though I doubt it would be a well known name.
At least we know where this one went, right?
The fact that its Malaysian airlines is surely a coinky-dink... right?
QuoteBodies are scattered around what is believed to be the wreckage of the jet near the village of Grabovo, which is under the control of separatist rebels.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28354856
Apparently, and the count is 295.
Err.
QuoteAt least 100 bodies have been found so far at the scene, an emergencies worker told Reuters news agency at the scene, with wreckage spread across an area of up to about 15km (nine miles) in diameter.
A paranoid man might suspect potential shenanigans within that diameter as well.
Or that Malaysia is
really pissing someone off.
WTF did they think they were shooting at?
This is what happens when you give advanced weaponry to people who cannot tell a commercial airliner from a military plane.
On the other hand, I'm eagerly awaiting the conspiracy theories which suggest the CIA stole the first missing Malaysian Airlines flight in order to plant this flight over Ukraine to implicate Russia to, uh, something. New World Order-y.
I especially like it because at this point the pathetic Ukrainian Army, against all expectations, is actually winning. Taking territory and cities from the seperatists. So now would be the perfect time for a false-flag attack because, uh, reasons.
Quote from: Cain on July 17, 2014, 07:13:36 PM
This is what happens when you give advanced weaponry to people who cannot tell a commercial airliner from a military plane.
Or they just wanted to make something go bang.
Which I can respect. But they're meant to yell "boom headshot!" while doing so. Traditions must be maintained.
Maybe thats the whole point? Target a Malaysian Airlines plane so that all the wingnuts of the world will start reading into nothing. Remember when all the wing-nuts in Russia thought that a Meteor was either a US missle or a UFO? Putins losing face right now with those same wing-nuts. This could be an attempt to distract them with outrage over the evil west. Or it could an attempt to rewrite the story of his failure in Ukraine. Putin invading and then getting driven out by Ukraine of all places is pretty embarrassing. But Putin invading Ukraine, and then being forced to leave after being framed for attacking a plane full of civilians makes him a much more sympathetic figure.
Quote from: Cain on July 17, 2014, 07:39:42 PM
Which I can respect. But they're meant to yell "boom headshot!" while doing so. Traditions must be maintained.
We don't know that they didn't, you know.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on July 17, 2014, 07:44:55 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 17, 2014, 07:39:42 PM
Which I can respect. But they're meant to yell "boom headshot!" while doing so. Traditions must be maintained.
We don't know that they didn't, you know.
:horrormirth:
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on July 17, 2014, 07:42:30 PM
Maybe thats the whole point? Target a Malaysian Airlines plane so that all the wingnuts of the world will start reading into nothing. Remember when all the wing-nuts in Russia thought that a Meteor was either a US missle or a UFO? Putins losing face right now with those same wing-nuts. This could be an attempt to distract them with outrage over the evil west. Or it could an attempt to rewrite the story of his failure in Ukraine. Putin invading and then getting driven out by Ukraine of all places is pretty embarrassing. But Putin invading Ukraine, and then being forced to leave after being framed for attacking a plane full of civilians makes him a much more sympathetic figure.
I can agree with the majority of that.
Still, I've got no real reason to suspect that the separatists are left entirely to their own devices. Ongoing dirty tricks are surely being employed by everyone, against everyone.
The other thing is Malyasian plane. I'd strongly lean towards co-incidence though it's an international flight and there's been nothing saying it was a 100% malaysian passenger list. Show me a story indicating either side shot it down to stop X getting to Y because Z, and provided those things aren't utterly insane, I'll take a look. It departed from Amsterdam, so there's more than a few potential interests that could be involved in such a thing.
Quote from: Cain on July 17, 2014, 07:13:36 PM
On the other hand, I'm eagerly awaiting the conspiracy theories which suggest the CIA stole the first missing Malaysian Airlines flight in order to plant this flight over Ukraine to implicate Russia to, uh, something. New World Order-y.
You have a fine mind Cain, I like you.
Apparently there were Americans on the plane, therefore, all the Republicans say it is now Obama's fault and are mad he's not flying over there RIGHT NOW.
Quote from: Cain on July 17, 2014, 07:13:36 PMOn the other hand, I'm eagerly awaiting the conspiracy theories which suggest the CIA stole the first missing Malaysian Airlines flight in order to plant this flight over Ukraine to implicate Russia to, uh, something. New World Order-y.
That's a great point. But it doesn't take into account that the missing plane is sitting in a hangar in Pakistan while they're preparing it to be used for a terrorist attack. :lol:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on July 17, 2014, 07:44:55 PM
Quote from: Cain on July 17, 2014, 07:39:42 PM
Which I can respect. But they're meant to yell "boom headshot!" while doing so. Traditions must be maintained.
We don't know that they didn't, you know.
They did, on Russian social media, then the commander deleted it when he found out it wasn't a Ukrainian transport plane.
http://mashable.com/2014/07/17/malaysia-airlines-ukraine-russia-rebel/
http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2014/07/pro-russia-commander-boasts-malaysia-plane-warned/
QuoteAfter the plane was shot down, Igor Girkin, the self-proclaimed defense minister of the Donetsk People's Republic, relayed both a warning and a celebratory message through his VK.com account – Russia's version of Facebook.
"We did warn you — do not fly in our sky," he wrote
Oh. Just a cock up with a toll of 300 or so then?
Is that better?
Once again, Cain understands these people in way that occasionally freaks me out.
"BOOM, headshot", indeed.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on July 17, 2014, 11:17:23 PM
Once again, Cain understands these people in way that occasionally freaks me out.
"BOOM, headshot", indeed.
:horrormirth:
This is coming a day after seeing a barrage of rockets (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwTXjouDIvQ) supposedly fired from the Russian border into the Ukraine, though I can't find any solid sources to back it up. After hearing about the plane it sounds like things are heating up over there.
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on July 17, 2014, 07:42:30 PM
Maybe thats the whole point? Target a Malaysian Airlines plane so that all the wingnuts of the world will start reading into nothing. Remember when all the wing-nuts in Russia thought that a Meteor was either a US missle or a UFO? Putins losing face right now with those same wing-nuts. This could be an attempt to distract them with outrage over the evil west. Or it could an attempt to rewrite the story of his failure in Ukraine. Putin invading and then getting driven out by Ukraine of all places is pretty embarrassing. But Putin invading Ukraine, and then being forced to leave after being framed for attacking a plane full of civilians makes him a much more sympathetic figure.
You know, I thought this was a kinda derp-tier idea until I read this (note: I'm literally just hemorraging info I picked out of my asshole and haven't confirmed, but here's a post that kinda rings to this tune of "putin blames ukraine")
Quote
I have got fresh news about the malaysian shot down! Spanish Air controller in Kiev "Carlos" he's been writing in @spainbuca in twitter.
Here's the link for those that speak spanish,
https://twitter.com/spainbuca
For those who doesn't I will give you a few traductions:
>"Es tal la decadencia que los militares acompañados de extranjeros que llegaron primero nos llegaron a pedir que dijéramos su versión"
It is so the decadence of the military accompagned by some foreigners that they asked us to tell their version of things
>La forma de tomar la torre de control minutos después sabiendo todo los detalles, rápido nos hizo pensar que habían sido ellos
The way they took control of the air controlling tower made and their awareness of all the details made us realise it was them who provocked this.
>Mandos militares aquí (ATC) torre de control, confirman que el misil es del ejercito de ukraine,
Military commanders here confirm that the missil came from Ukraine's military
> Retweeted by ✈ Carlos.
RT en Español @ActualidadRT · 2h
ÚLTIMA HORA Controlador aéreo: El Boeing 777 "voló escoltado por 2 cazas ucranianos" antes de desaparecer #MH17 http://es.rt.com/yW7
Breaking news! Air controller: The boeing 777 flew with an escort composed of 2 jet planes from the ukranian military.
>Los cazas volaron cerca del 777, hasta 3 minutos antes de desaparecer de los radares, solo 3 minutos
The military jet planes flied during three minutes just before the take down.
>Militares confirman que fue ukraine, pero se sigue sin saber de donde vino la orden
The military confirms it was Ukraine, however, the origin of the order is still unknown.
>A los 7:00 minutos se notificó el derribo, más tarde se tomó la torre nuestra con personal extranjero q siguen aquí
At 7 (don't know if am or pm) the take down was confirmed, immediatly after, the tower was seized by foreign military personnel.
If I'm reading this post correctly, I think the implication is that an "independant" spanish-speaking individual is claiming that the ukrainian military itself shot the plane down...but it's appearently been picked up by RT, and thus smells funny to me.
Looks like I'm slowpoke.jpg today...PD called it before I considered it :oops:
aaaaaand...not to double post but it now appears RT is trying to imply the narrative of the Ukr. military trying to shoot down putin...
>http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/
This is a bit bad if its true
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/18/aids-conference-says-100-researchers-may-have-been-on-board-crashed-plane
"As many as 100 of the world's leading HIV/Aids researchers and advocates may have been on the Malaysia Airlines flight that crashed in Ukraine, in what has been described as a "devastating" blow to efforts to tackle the virus."
That's some serious collateral damage there.
Quote from: von on July 18, 2014, 01:37:21 AM
aaaaaand...not to double post but it now appears RT is trying to imply the narrative of the Ukr. military trying to shoot down putin...
>http://rt.com/news/173672-malaysia-plane-crash-putin/
Yes, I heard that theory as well. It's certainly the most plausible version of "Ukraine did it" which I have seen so far.
Still, I'm not very sold on it. As has been widely reported, the Donetsk Republic's Twitter feed deleted a reference/picture to the kind of weapon system which could shoot down a plane, and denied having access to that kind of weaponry.
Obviously, no-one told them what happens once it is on the internet...
RonPaul420s theory is interesting, but I suspect a bit too convoluted and intelligent for our intelligence services. While smart people, they do generally like vicious, simple games where you do not pass go, do not collect $200 and a death squad burns your family alive. Convoluted is typically, if anything, a Russian (or occasionally British) approach to intelligence,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEDH2Z2_6Zw
They will seriously let anybody onto the news nowadays. Video is an MSNBC anchor getting crank called by some dude claiming to be a military sergeant. Good thing they screen calls, right?
Ah, but you didn't hear the call they did screen...:
HELLO CAPTIALIST RUNNING DOGS OF DECADENT WEST! I AM PEOPLES GENERAL IVAN IVANOVITSCH IVANOVSKY OF GLORIOUS PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF DONETSK. UKRAINE SHOT DOWN THE PLANE.
\
(http://www.englishinrussia.ru/sites/default/files/cache/stRateably_370x0_0/stereotypical%20russian.jpg)
Quote from: Cain on July 18, 2014, 02:39:28 PM
Ah, but you didn't hear the call they did screen...:
HELLO CAPTIALIST RUNNING DOGS OF DECADENT WEST! I AM PEOPLES GENERAL IVAN IVANOVITSCH IVANOVSKY OF GLORIOUS PEOPLES REPUBLIC OF DONETSK. UKRAINE SHOT DOWN THE PLANE.
\
(http://www.englishinrussia.ru/sites/default/files/cache/stRateably_370x0_0/stereotypical%20russian.jpg)
Aaaaaand there goes my coffee. All over the screen.
Quote from: Cain on July 18, 2014, 10:22:29 AM
RonPaul420s theory is interesting, but I suspect a bit too convoluted and intelligent for our intelligence services. While smart people, they do generally like vicious, simple games where you do not pass go, do not collect $200 and a death squad burns your family alive. Convoluted is typically, if anything, a Russian (or occasionally British) approach to intelligence,
I wasnt talking about our intelligence doing it, I was saying it would make sense for Russia to intentionally target a Malaysian Airlines plane to take advantage of the conspiracy theories surrounding it. Not even saying that its related to the plane disappearing, just that it would make sense for them to take advantage of it.
Putin getting his ass handed to him and forced out of Ukraine is one thing. Putin being forced out of Ukraine by underhanded tricks involving murdering civilians is another. Right now the western story is that Russia shot the plane down, which is probably true. Putins going to denounce this as a lie, and a lot of people in his base are going to want to believe that. Right now the holographic plane folks are hard at work proving Putins innocence for him.
If youre a Russian nationalist revanchist with a propensity for conspiracy theories which narrative are you going to believe? The one the evil western governments who are lying about 9/11 and the UFOs puts out, or the one where Russia is yet again the victim of the wests underhanded scheming.
Ah, apologies for my misinterpretation. In my defence, I'm normally reading seven different things at once, and yesterday was no different.
The problem is the narrative has been this for a long time before now, and I don't see this changing that in any way at all. Ever since before the fall of Slaviansk, Russian nationalists have been bitching that Putin isn't doing enough, isn't supporting the rebels enough, isn't putting the full pressure of the Russian state on the Ukrainians. Downing a plane wouldn't really change that narrative, at this stage it's too firmly entrenched. I've gotten the strong impression from Russian nationalist circles I keep an eye on that nothing Putin does, short of dunking Obama's head down a toilet at the next international conference, is ever good enough for them.
Plus, based on the information we have currently, it is sufficient to posit a seperatist cause for the downing of the flight, based on capabilities, previous actions, suspicious Twitter deletions and (interestingly, though not confirmed) intercepted phone calls between the Donetsk Militia and some commanders on the ground.
Makes sense. Im probably just reading too much into this. How do you think Putin is going to play this? Keep blaming Ukraine? Maybe distance himself from the separatists? "Mistakes were made"?
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on July 18, 2014, 05:42:54 PM
Makes sense. Im probably just reading too much into this. How do you think Putin is going to play this? Keep blaming Ukraine? Maybe distance himself from the separatists? "Mistakes were made"?
I think the dickhead who posted on social media is gonna die, soon & horribly, and then things will go right back to where they were last week.
Quote from: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on July 18, 2014, 05:42:54 PM
Makes sense. Im probably just reading too much into this. How do you think Putin is going to play this? Keep blaming Ukraine? Maybe distance himself from the separatists? "Mistakes were made"?
Speculation is fun, but at the end of the day, Occam's Razor is usually a good rule of thumb until the evidence points otherwise.
I suspect Putin will pretty much stop supporting the rebels entirely at this point. He wont publically say anything, I'm fairly sure, but Moscow has to prioritise its relationship with America, as rocky as that is, over the rebels. Crimea is secure, eastern Ukraine was always a bonus prize at best, a testing ground for the limits of "special warfare" in actuality, and now a headache and pain in the arse.
In Putin's position, I'd close the border and let NATO support Kyiv to the hilt. Russia has the long-term advantages in Ukraine anyway, a fight was never the smartest option from that POV.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on July 18, 2014, 05:50:53 PM
I think the dickhead who posted on social media is gonna die, soon & horribly, ...
My roommate is of the same opinion.
In close to home sort of news, my friend who is currently about to complete his PhD at Dartmouth had 2 buddies scheduled to be on this flight. They decided to stay an extra day in Amsterdam to smoke pot. They were part of the AIDS research team.
Not sure if irony that drugs saved their lives or...
Quote from: The Suu on July 19, 2014, 01:22:14 PM
In close to home sort of news, my friend who is currently about to complete his PhD at Dartmouth had 2 buddies scheduled to be on this flight. They decided to stay an extra day in Amsterdam to smoke pot. They were part of the AIDS research team.
Not sure if irony that drugs saved their lives or...
But if they keep injecting marijuanas they will get AIDS :eek:
Quote from: Cain on July 18, 2014, 05:28:18 PM
The problem is the narrative has been this for a long time before now, and I don't see this changing that in any way at all. Ever since before the fall of Slaviansk, Russian nationalists have been bitching that Putin isn't doing enough, isn't supporting the rebels enough, isn't putting the full pressure of the Russian state on the Ukrainians. Downing a plane wouldn't really change that narrative, at this stage it's too firmly entrenched. I've gotten the strong impression from Russian nationalist circles I keep an eye on that nothing Putin does, short of dunking Obama's head down a toilet at the next international conference, is ever good enough for them.
Is anyone else slightly amused that this sounds like exactly what Obama is going though with the Tea Party, just in a different hemishere? :lulz:
Quote from: Chelagoras The Lust-Driven Dickwolf on July 20, 2014, 07:48:38 AM
Quote from: Cain on July 18, 2014, 05:28:18 PM
The problem is the narrative has been this for a long time before now, and I don't see this changing that in any way at all. Ever since before the fall of Slaviansk, Russian nationalists have been bitching that Putin isn't doing enough, isn't supporting the rebels enough, isn't putting the full pressure of the Russian state on the Ukrainians. Downing a plane wouldn't really change that narrative, at this stage it's too firmly entrenched. I've gotten the strong impression from Russian nationalist circles I keep an eye on that nothing Putin does, short of dunking Obama's head down a toilet at the next international conference, is ever good enough for them.
Is anyone else slightly amused that this sounds like exactly what Obama is going though with the Tea Party, just in a different hemishere? :lulz:
Not me.
I'm just depressed at the rise in nationalism and its sidekick: bigotry.
Hmm:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28416973
QuoteLate on Monday the rebels, including Alexander Borodai, self-styled Prime Minister of the Donetsk People's Republic, handed over the "black box" flight recorders to Malaysian officials at a ceremony in Donetsk.
QuoteInvestigators hope the devices, described as being in good condition, will provide vital clues about what happened to the plane.
The handover of the "black boxes" and the transfer of remains followed talks between Mr Borodai and the Malaysian Prime Minister Najib Razak.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28416973
Seems like an odd move to make if you were apparently responsible. So the inital guesses would be that the data to potentially be revealed will place the blame on Ukraine forces or it's had a big magnet near it and won't reveal a damn thing, which is equally telling I suppose.
QuoteMeanwhile international monitors say parts of the wreckage have been changed since they first saw it.
Fuckery abounds. Finger pointing to follow.
It's worth noting that the Donetsk People's Republic is strongly influenced by Moscow. "Strelkov", the leader of the militia, is FSB (current/former up for debate). Russia doesn't want an incident with America over this. How many arms did Russia twist or break? Probably a few, but it's what they're good at. Maybe Borodai will get asylum once Kyiv crushes the insurgency, in return for his compliance.
It is also possible that Ukraine did down the plane. I mean, Ukraine lied about having its own anti-aircraft weapons in the area after that, despite the strong evidence of them in Slaviyansk (presumably to deter a Russian air force attack in aid of the rebels).
First I have heard of this funny-business. Thank GAWD this forum exists, I don't know where else I would get the news from. Probably not a big deal, I'm sure Obamer will step up and take care of it.
*You have reached the voice mailbox of PRESIDENT OBAMER I'm sorry, this mailbox is currently full. If this is an emergency, contact your local exclusive golf course. If you are an immigrant trying to enter the country illegally, please feel free to do so. Thank you and goodbye.*
3 days and not one bite? Forum is dead off to TCC I guess.
(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc98/wjc55/fishing.gif)
I AM OUTRAGE ABOUT YOU AND WHAT YOU SAY :argh!:
PLEDGE
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