So, yesterday on FB I ran across a self-proclaimed "fat activist", and I had a chance to speak with her in chat about her beliefs. I came away with mixed feelings.
It all happened when Roger wrote (cross posted, I think?) a rant about how people in a Cause heel-dig and screech if their buzz words are challenged, or if additional information or First Thoughts were questioned.
As it turns out, she was a near-perfect Object Lesson. Roger basically wrote a rant predicting a specific set of behaviors of a person with a Cause, and she pretty much acted exactly that way, right down the list.
I was curious to see what would happen if I didn't rise to the bait and removed as much buzzy language as possible, and crafted questions designed for yes/no/maybe answers. So I sent her a PM, and asked a question that I thought would clearly establish a common reality, i.e. a biological base.
She couldn't do it. Every response veered off into "shaming" or "stigma" or "morality" or "discrimination" or "I think that question is used to torment humiliate and terrorize people" (real quote). It then became obvious she was flat our rejecting certain nouns all together, as if when something is "named", it becomes an evil social tool solely designed to hurt a minority group of some sort. I didn't mock her or belittle her or try to condescend to her, I simply and politely tried to get an answer.
She then asked why I was so interested, and I told her that I had no bias about size (I don't consciously, and if I do subconsciously, it's down so deep I can't hear it/can't bother to care about it), and I was just curious to talk with an activist outside my social circle. We chatted a bit more, and it became clear she was getting genuinely confused about a man and a woman having a non-screeching, non-flaming, polite conversation about fat activism on the internet. The conversation ended naturally, and then she thanked me "for listening and not making fun of me". End scene.
So, as I said, my feelings changed as we talked. I started out hilariously frustrated trying to get a straight answer out of her. I mean, we're talking total nutbag Social Justice Warrior here, oblivious to reality and shifting her fallacious appeals with every sentence, sending up flares and barbs designed to distract and derail. It's one of the few times I've seen this first hand, as I mainly use Tumblr for gay (and not-as-gay) porn.
And then, as she started becoming bewildered, I realized that most likely was how the majority of her online experience goes, as arguments and invectives and threats and shrieks and triggers and mockery. And that it was honestly unusual for someone to be polite and respectful, even while disagreeing. And it made me sad, and sad for her that this was how she experienced life, at least online.
So yeah, this was going to start as "LOL SJW", but it ended up... Melancholic? Would that be the right word? Or Pity, as Aristotle used it, "a kind of pain in the case of an apparent destructive or painful harm of one not deserving to encounter it".
So. Yeah.
I'm really pleased you actually reached out to Jane, she seemed troubled, but was so histrionic that I cheaply took some pleasure in that. I felt like that gym teacher in the movie Carrie. Every single thing she said in Roger's thread was rote Tumblr bullshit, she didn't read what people said, she read what she thought they said. She clearly buys the whole Tumblr SJW mindset, hook, line, and sinker.
Do you think your dialogue will continue at all? And do you think you had any success in getting her to see how her pet cause was blinding her? Itaybe that wasn't even your objective there. At any rate, well done.
The demographics do feel different for the social justice crew. I mean, the tribal impulse is the same, whether it's an MRA, a Libertarian, a Linux devotee, an SJW, or a Scientologist. But most social justice warriors are young teenage girls, very often ones with genuine troubles.
I admit, I haven't read any exhaustive studies to back that up. But I think that makes a difference. Somehow.
I feel SJWs do deserve more empathy than MRAs, is the point to which I am meandering.
I don't know if I'm going to continue the conversation. I definitely didn't get my point across, because she would tense up and lash out when it got too close, and I really don't have the time. Plus, I realized she's in Boston and goes to one of the same dance nights I do, and I do not want to get into a IRL conversation with her if I've been drinking. Although it would be funny to see her reaction when I show up with my plus-size girl gang, along with various bears and twinks.
And the thing is, I agree with a lot of her points. Society does tend to be biased agaist sizes 14+ (hell, even 10+), body shaming is a thing, an individual's health is specific to that person, and large does not always mean unhealthy. But the way it's presented, and the fanatical and irrational belief system.... whuf. Can't.
I totally agree too, and from what I've seen the BMI really is jive, though I don't have stats at my fingertips to justify that at the moment. But, having said that, there is a big difference between generally fat and morbidly obese.
Quote from: LMNO, PhD (life continues) on January 09, 2015, 08:13:31 PM
It all happened when Roger wrote (cross posted, I think?)
Naw, I wrote it for that page. But there wasn't much in the way of new ideas.
I think that the main problem with a lot of anti-fat bias is that there's this general perception that overweight=unhealthy and that thin=healthy. Health is a lot more complicated than that, you can't use body fat percentage as the sole marker of health. There are people who have a higher body fat percentage who are very healthy, and others who have a lower body fat percentage who are very unhealthy. Nutrition and cardiovascular health are fairly independent of body fat ratio. In addition, how body fat impacts your health also depends on your genetics and how you store extra fat. If it makes your ass big, congratulations, you store fat in the healthiest of all possible ways. If it stores itself all up in your abdominal cavity, there are more health risks associated with that.
One thing that is a real problem is that our culture tends to assume that all problems are behavior-based, not situation-based; you see that reflected in the negative ways people talk about fat people on mobility scooters, apparently never stopping to think that if you're disabled by, say, degradative cartilage disease or one of the neuropathic disorders like MS, it can become extremely difficult to exercise. Another is that we use shame and belittling to try to change behaviors; that old punishment fetish in action!
While I understand a lot of the social issues around fat-shaming and can see why people would want to become activists around that issue, the problem I see is that most of the time, they simply adopt the enemy's language and start punishing those they perceive as the oppressors. Not only is that ineffective, but as we can see in the dynamic between the Hutu and the Tutsis, it can lead to very bad places with astonishing rapidity.
Not that I think fat people are going to start savagely slaughtering the thin, but you know what I mean.
I was hoping you'd weigh in, Nigel.
Shit. Pun totally not intended.
But yeah. It's complicated, so using a single vector for activism is as bad as using a single vector for judging.
The whole point of my rant is that Causes stop you from thinking.
Then someone came along and proved my point entirely. Even though I had stated that body-shaming of ANY kind is bad, within a half dozen posts, she was saying that I wanted to punish fat people.
She then stated that I was "in a position of authority" by virtue of the fact that Cram included my rant in the project. :?
STEP ASIDE, PEASANTS! I HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED IN A FREE PDF. :lulz:
Yeah. Like I said, Object Lesson. But of course it's incredibly hard to tell someone they've stopped thinking.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on January 09, 2015, 11:22:24 PM
The whole point of my rant is that Causes stop you from thinking.
Then someone came along and proved my point entirely. Even though I had stated that body-shaming of ANY kind is bad, within a half dozen posts, she was saying that I wanted to punish fat people.
She then stated that I was "in a position of authority" by virtue of the fact that Cram included my rant in the project. :?
STEP ASIDE, PEASANTS! I HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED IN A FREE PDF. :lulz:
THY MIGHTY POWER IS AWESOME AND HATH STRICKEN THE PEASANTS AND LOWLANDERS FULL OF FEAR.
It was kind of perfect, actually. As if you had included diagrams or something.
And on top of it all, she started with, "Speaking as a..."
I'D LIKE THE LITTLE PEOPLE TO REMAIN SILENT, PLEASE.
\
:snob:
I've just started reading this now.
Lol thin privilege lol
[tumblring intensifies]Quote from: NigelOne thing that is a real problem is that our culture tends to assume that all problems are behavior-based, not situation-based; you see that reflected in the negative ways people talk about fat people on mobility scooters, apparently never stopping to think that if you're disabled by, say, degradative cartilage disease or one of the neuropathic disorders like MS, it can become extremely difficult to exercise. Another is that we use shame and belittling to try to change behaviors; that old punishment fetish in action!
While I understand a lot of the social issues around fat-shaming and can see why people would want to become activists around that issue, the problem I see is that most of the time, they simply adopt the enemy's language and start punishing those they perceive as the oppressors. Not only is that ineffective, but as we can see in the dynamic between the Hutu and the Tutsis, it can lead to very bad places with astonishing rapidity.
Not that I think fat people are going to start savagely slaughtering the thin, but you know what I mean.
Well, that's just it, isn't it?
I noted the person in question very quickly moved to "you're fat-shaming, you're wrong and evil" in that thread when they felt under attack. It was an attempt to morally shame those she felt were shaming her, and punishing them by declaring them to be morally corrupt or suspect.
Given how these shaming techniques, when applied to fat people, clearly haven't worked on her to change her ways, why does she think that adopting the same methods in return will accomplish anything? I know I keep saying this, but liberals and leftists are the most tactically dumb people on the planet. If they held a war run by internet ideologues tomorrow, they'd parade up and down a street telling themselves they won and giving each other high fives for being so awesome. They're rhetorically so weak in many cases they refuse to even engage in debate, believe debate is possible or that it should be desired. Instead, they shame, bully, declare victory and retreat to a bubble of like-minded activists.
You'll notice how overwhelmingly successful this strategy has been in changing people's minds.
Also, I don't see fat people rising up to slaughter thin people, because they'll always be outrun. Genocide's a fit person's game, you know, cult of physical health and all that.
Most people seem to be under the impression that conservatism only exists in the right wing, but its denonstratively false: the left wing displays loads of consrvative traits... censorship, herd mentality, punishment fetishising, etc...
Quote from: Cain on January 11, 2015, 04:15:08 AM
[tumblring intensifies]
Quote from: NigelOne thing that is a real problem is that our culture tends to assume that all problems are behavior-based, not situation-based; you see that reflected in the negative ways people talk about fat people on mobility scooters, apparently never stopping to think that if you're disabled by, say, degradative cartilage disease or one of the neuropathic disorders like MS, it can become extremely difficult to exercise. Another is that we use shame and belittling to try to change behaviors; that old punishment fetish in action!
While I understand a lot of the social issues around fat-shaming and can see why people would want to become activists around that issue, the problem I see is that most of the time, they simply adopt the enemy's language and start punishing those they perceive as the oppressors. Not only is that ineffective, but as we can see in the dynamic between the Hutu and the Tutsis, it can lead to very bad places with astonishing rapidity.
Not that I think fat people are going to start savagely slaughtering the thin, but you know what I mean.
Well, that's just it, isn't it?
I noted the person in question very quickly moved to "you're fat-shaming, you're wrong and evil" in that thread when they felt under attack. It was an attempt to morally shame those she felt were shaming her, and punishing them by declaring them to be morally corrupt or suspect.
Given how these shaming techniques, when applied to fat people, clearly haven't worked on her to change her ways, why does she think that adopting the same methods in return will accomplish anything? I know I keep saying this, but liberals and leftists are the most tactically dumb people on the planet. If they held a war run by internet ideologues tomorrow, they'd parade up and down a street telling themselves they won and giving each other high fives for being so awesome. They're rhetorically so weak in many cases they refuse to even engage in debate, believe debate is possible or that it should be desired. Instead, they shame, bully, declare victory and retreat to a bubble of like-minded activists.
You'll notice how overwhelmingly successful this strategy has been in changing people's minds.
Also, I don't see fat people rising up to slaughter thin people, because they'll always be outrun. Genocide's a fit person's game, you know, cult of physical health and all that.
I love you! Can I quote you on retardbook?
Quote from: Hoopla on January 11, 2015, 05:06:23 AM
Most people seem to be under the impression that conservatism only exists in the right wing, but its denonstratively false: the left wing displays loads of consrvative traits... censorship, herd mentality, punishment fetishising, etc...
Idiotic green consumerism.
And PETA
Quote from: Metal Bear on January 11, 2015, 07:14:21 AM
I love you! Can I quote you on retardbook?
Sure, feel free
Looking forward to the follow up, My Day as a SJW
You won't do it.
Quote from: Hoopla on January 11, 2015, 05:06:23 AM
Most people seem to be under the impression that conservatism only exists in the right wing, but its denonstratively false: the left wing displays loads of consrvative traits... censorship, herd mentality, punishment fetishising, etc...
You would think the history of the Soviet Union would be a prime case study of this in action.
But since ThoughtCatalog (I know, I know...) had an article up not very long ago advocating reeducation camps for those who abuse freedom of speech by promoting hate speech, I suspect not. Although, I will admit that whole thing read like a parody of liberal thinking, complete with many references to the UN, the suggestion that the USA was worse than China and Saudi Arabia on human rights and conflation of hate speech with wartime propaganda and genocide.
Quote from: Eater of Clowns on January 11, 2015, 03:07:05 PM
Looking forward to the follow up, My Day as a SJW
You won't do it.
Sadly, lmno.tumblr.com is not free for the taking.
Quote from: Cain on January 11, 2015, 04:15:08 AM
[tumblring intensifies]
Quote from: NigelOne thing that is a real problem is that our culture tends to assume that all problems are behavior-based, not situation-based; you see that reflected in the negative ways people talk about fat people on mobility scooters, apparently never stopping to think that if you're disabled by, say, degradative cartilage disease or one of the neuropathic disorders like MS, it can become extremely difficult to exercise. Another is that we use shame and belittling to try to change behaviors; that old punishment fetish in action!
While I understand a lot of the social issues around fat-shaming and can see why people would want to become activists around that issue, the problem I see is that most of the time, they simply adopt the enemy's language and start punishing those they perceive as the oppressors. Not only is that ineffective, but as we can see in the dynamic between the Hutu and the Tutsis, it can lead to very bad places with astonishing rapidity.
Not that I think fat people are going to start savagely slaughtering the thin, but you know what I mean.
Well, that's just it, isn't it?
I noted the person in question very quickly moved to "you're fat-shaming, you're wrong and evil" in that thread when they felt under attack. It was an attempt to morally shame those she felt were shaming her, and punishing them by declaring them to be morally corrupt or suspect.
Given how these shaming techniques, when applied to fat people, clearly haven't worked on her to change her ways, why does she think that adopting the same methods in return will accomplish anything? I know I keep saying this, but liberals and leftists are the most tactically dumb people on the planet. If they held a war run by internet ideologues tomorrow, they'd parade up and down a street telling themselves they won and giving each other high fives for being so awesome. They're rhetorically so weak in many cases they refuse to even engage in debate, believe debate is possible or that it should be desired. Instead, they shame, bully, declare victory and retreat to a bubble of like-minded activists.
You'll notice how overwhelmingly successful this strategy has been in changing people's minds.
Also, I don't see fat people rising up to slaughter thin people, because they'll always be outrun. Genocide's a fit person's game, you know, cult of physical health and all that.
That is exactly it, Cain. Spot on.