Plato's cave is, as many of you know, a thought experiment put forth by Plato, in which several prisoners are shackled in a cave with a fire behind them. The fire casts shadows on the wall and, since the prisoners have their backs to the fire, all the see is the shadows. Which they take to be reality.
But then one day, one of the prisoners sees the fire for some reason. Perhaps his shackles rusted away, who knows. Anyway, he sees the fire and immediately concludes that the shadows are an illusion, and that the principles that underpin his sense of reality are false. A number of things happen. One, he tells his fellow prisoners his discovery. Some of them mock him for his insane belief that the shadows are false, some declare that he is a heretic for claiming they are false, and some sign on and begin worshiping the fire. Some even decide that the fire is a conspiracy, lit and tended by those that want to mire the prisoners in illusion for vague yet nefarious reasons (this is where we get Ron Paul voters).
And they could be right. Or maybe the fire was lit by a totally unrelated guy, who's just trying to cook his dinner or stay warm or do one of the other things that require fire.
Or maybe there's more than one person tending the fire, and they all have different motives. One guy is cooking dinner, another is drying out his clothing, and one bastard is building the fire up to fuck with the prisoners. Who deserve it. Because they must have done something to become prisoners in the first place. The bastards.
All of this ignores the fact that the shadows are real, in that they are the spaces on the cave wall that are not directly exposed to light from the fire. This would infer to the prisoners, if they'd stop beating up the guy that noticed the fire, that they themselves are real, by virtue of having cast the shadows in the first place. But he's a heretic, and we know how to deal with heretics around here.
At no point does it occur to the prisoners to mash their manacles with rocks and exit the cave. They would in fact kill you for suggesting it, because the cave is a known space and outside the cave is unknown and frightening, and where would they get their shadows if they left, anyway?
Well, most of them. One guy might bravely leave the cave and then return to explain, but having watched the shadow of him leave, the prisoners are entertained and thus feel no need to take any further steps (the Apollo Program comes to mind), since it's been done already and they're waiting for the next big thing. Probably some loud guy with a fucked up hairdo that looks intriguing as hell when cast in shadow.
Niiice.
I especially like paragraphs 5 and 7.
I really enjoyed this, the unseen fire all worked by many forces that we only see the shadows of really explains a lot of human behaviour to me.
Thanks. It had occurred to me that many people, in trying to get a clearer idea of reality, try to "separate the wheat from the chaff", ignoring the fact that reality = wheat AND chaff AND lots of shit we don't know exists, let alone understand.
This is great!
That last guy who left? That fucking guy :horrormirth:
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 23, 2016, 05:14:47 PM
Thanks. It had occurred to me that many people, in trying to get a clearer idea of reality, try to "separate the wheat from the chaff", ignoring the fact that reality = wheat AND chaff AND lots of shit we don't know exists, let alone understand.
OP was great! I think you're on to something with this particular "non choosy" model for knowledge. Vastly more is unknown than known, and THAT'S a fact, so presume as little as possible!
"... and they all have different motives."
This is the part that speaks to me the most, I think. On all sides, I see people accuse the opposite side of having some streamlined agenda or some over-bearing power in The System™. One of my friends has a habit of accusing the blatantly chaotic and incoherent Conservative Right as having some elaborate control. He thinks that the liberal media stations are actually controlled by the conservatives to make the liberals look bad. And here I'm thinking "Maybe you just don't agree with the left as much as you thought you did?"
Do some Conservatives on the Right have considerable power in certain areas of The System™? Absolutely. Do they control all of it? Hell no. Do the Conservatives with power on the Right all work together to achieve an agenda? No, but some work together or bribe each other to make different things happen. Do the Democrats have control over everything instead? No. You have Plutocrats on both sides playing The System™ for their own personal gain, which may or may not coincide with the general principles of either side. I hate it when people confuse coincidence of principle and individually selfish behavior with conspiracy. Eventually, you start to realize that The System™ is not just an entity, but a collective of individual entities with their own complex influences and desires. Assume that things are simply "You vs [The Enemy]" or even "Us vs [The System™]" and you will NEVER break the shackles. You will never see the Fire. You will see what you, or some other asshole wants you to see. And in turn, you may cause someone else to see what you want to see.
All I see is an endless ocean of dumb. It's scarier than any conspiracy. At least with a conspiracy shit is happening for a reason. It might not be one you agree with but at least it makes sense.
Okay to reprint under the usual CC-ND-NC-A?
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 27, 2016, 11:55:55 PM
All I see is an endless ocean of dumb. It's scarier than any conspiracy. At least with a conspiracy shit is happening for a reason. It might not be one you agree with but at least it makes sense.
Well, I would argue that a conspiracy implies mostly direct action against any kind of agenda that you, yourself, may have. Or that they would let your agenda take hold only to manipulate it for their own gain.
An endless ocean of dumb (If you're implying little to no organization or coherence) definitely has its friction with agendas, but I see it as capable of being circumvented because of lack of organization. Possibly a higher potential for future directional organization?
The way I see it, dispersed and disorganized power chains are easier to take hold of if you want to change something about the world or create something for the world.
For example: I think the greatest potential for change for humanity exists in the undeveloped/developing countries that had little organization beforehand. These areas really are the latest frontiers for humane development. Investing in Africa, instead of taking from it, might be the next step in evolution of Mankind. All of its resources and diverse environments are perfect for growth. Give the people there a basic infrastructure to grow on, and the historical knowledge of the countries that have taken from it over the years, and I'm sure it will create a system even closer to perfection than America (Or Denmark, if you lean that way). Also, it seems to be much easier to implement the highest levels of infrastructure technology that we have if we start out from the bottom (Not necessarily from an engineering perspective, but from a lobbyist/support perspective). In our current system, it's damn-near impossible to upgrade anything infrastructure-related.
A Grand Conspiracy. A conspiracy to give humanity one last chance at success. And it's not possible in the developed world due to the fact that there is a bit too much organization and conspiracy that exists there. Nothing New World Order-level or anything. But there are long-term agendas affected by long-term government structures/legislation.
Note: Just let me know if I start jumping way off-topic during discussion. I'm still working on it and worry I've done that here as well.
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 27, 2016, 11:55:55 PM
All I see is an endless ocean of dumb. It's scarier than any conspiracy. At least with a conspiracy shit is happening for a reason. It might not be one you agree with but at least it makes sense.
This is where you run into the CotSG definition of "conspiracy". A conspiracy of dunces that
doesn't even know it's a conspiracy.It's worth mentioning that the legal definition of conspiracy does not require that the participants know they are involved in a conspiracy.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 28, 2016, 03:44:31 AM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 27, 2016, 11:55:55 PM
All I see is an endless ocean of dumb. It's scarier than any conspiracy. At least with a conspiracy shit is happening for a reason. It might not be one you agree with but at least it makes sense.
This is where you run into the CotSG definition of "conspiracy". A conspiracy of dunces that doesn't even know it's a conspiracy.
It's worth mentioning that the legal definition of conspiracy does not require that the participants know they are involved in a conspiracy.
Point. Will rethink and restate what I said above accordingly.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 28, 2016, 03:44:31 AM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 27, 2016, 11:55:55 PM
All I see is an endless ocean of dumb. It's scarier than any conspiracy. At least with a conspiracy shit is happening for a reason. It might not be one you agree with but at least it makes sense.
This is where you run into the CotSG definition of "conspiracy". A conspiracy of dunces that doesn't even know it's a conspiracy.
It's worth mentioning that the legal definition of conspiracy does not require that the participants know they are involved in a conspiracy.
CotSG?
(http://i.imgur.com/hFMp9Lt.jpg)
I might need to replace the body text with bold for better legibility, but I want to make sure the background is still visible.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on March 28, 2016, 02:23:16 PM
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger on March 28, 2016, 03:44:31 AM
Quote from: P3nT4gR4m on March 27, 2016, 11:55:55 PM
All I see is an endless ocean of dumb. It's scarier than any conspiracy. At least with a conspiracy shit is happening for a reason. It might not be one you agree with but at least it makes sense.
This is where you run into the CotSG definition of "conspiracy". A conspiracy of dunces that doesn't even know it's a conspiracy.
It's worth mentioning that the legal definition of conspiracy does not require that the participants know they are involved in a conspiracy.
CotSG?
Church of the Subgenius.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on March 28, 2016, 02:54:46 PM
I might need to replace the body text with bold for better legibility, but I want to make sure the background is still visible.
Either way, it's awesome.
(http://i.imgur.com/W19x3FR.jpg)
Bolder body text with more spacing for better legibility, share whatever version you like.
This reminds me of that awesome fight scene from They Live. Rowdy Roddy Piper has the glasses that show the truth, and he tries to force them onto Keith Davis. And they slug it out until they're both fucked up.
It's not enough to show somebody the truth - they will fight you and resist you every step of the way. Nobody gets the Holy from an instruction book, they have to find it themselves or get it beaten into them.
Forgive the Zizek link, but he says it up better than I can: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVwKjGbz60k
The violent rejection of truth is the part of the Plato's Cave allegory that speaks most to me.
Its something I've wrestled with as a larp writer. After you go check out the big european larps, and you sample the different styles and game types out there, you realize how deficient and diseased some parts of US Larp culture are. Like, larp games in New England (and most of the USA, actually) are very rules-heavy, don't allow alcohol, and have a lot of narration (ie, somebody tells you "You see an orc" and its just a kid with green grease on his face). In a lot of larps, you have to call out a number every time you swing, which makes combat sound like an argument about algebra rather than, say, a battle.
But you try to tell people around here about The Better Way of Doing Things, how when you drop a lot of the baggage we're carrying around, the experience itself feels different - more direct, more attention-grabbing, more engaging... and they will argue with you until the sun comes up. People have rationalized crappy stuff, and that's a wall they're chained to.
WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH THAT, IF IT IS WHAT THEY WANT TO DO?
"But nobody wants it! Everybody hates it."
OH. WELL, THEN STOP.
Quote from: Cramulus on March 29, 2016, 04:49:51 PM
The violent rejection of truth is the part of the Plato's Cave allegory that speaks most to me.
Its something I've wrestled with as a larp writer. After you go check out the big european larps, and you sample the different styles and game types out there, you realize how deficient and diseased some parts of US Larp culture are. Like, larp games in New England (and most of the USA, actually) are very rules-heavy, don't allow alcohol, and have a lot of narration (ie, somebody tells you "You see an orc" and its just a kid with green grease on his face). In a lot of larps, you have to call out a number every time you swing, which makes combat sound like an argument about algebra rather than, say, a battle.
But you try to tell people around here about The Better Way of Doing Things, how when you drop a lot of the baggage we're carrying around, the experience itself feels different - more direct, more attention-grabbing, more engaging... and they will argue with you until the sun comes up. People have rationalized crappy stuff, and that's a wall they're chained to.
WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH THAT, IF IT IS WHAT THEY WANT TO DO?
"But nobody wants it! Everybody hates it."
OH. WELL, THEN STOP.
What's great about this from a national level is that everyone WANTS to stop, they just can't remember HOW. Mass incarceration, militarization of police, weirdness in state legislatures, etc. Everyone (just about) hates it, but
we've forgotten what a non-police state looks like.
as I get older, I find myself apologizing on behalf of the world as-is.
I used to get really upset about stuff like "all our choices are the lesser-of-two-evils", our endless consumer obsessions, our meager mental lives
I used to get upset that so much of the world felt like a flat gray monotone.
Now I'm 34 and I've had the daily news and the 9-5 lifestyle beaten into me by a guy that looks like Rowdy Roddy Piper. I can see why it makes sense.
(http://www.standbyformindcontrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/theylive.jpg)
Deep inside, there's a 16 year old kid who is pointing outside and saying listen: there's a hell
of a good universe next door; let's go and I'm saying "shhhh, I've gotta get up for work in the morning"
so I feel it too
'pity this busy monster, manunkind'
ee cummings
pity this busy monster, manunkind,
not. Progress is a comfortable disease:
your victim (death and life safely beyond)
plays with the bigness of his littleness
--- electrons deify one razorblade
into a mountainrange; lenses extend
unwish through curving wherewhen till unwish
returns on its unself.
A world of made
is not a world of born --- pity poor flesh
and trees, poor stars and stones, but never this
fine specimen of hypermagical
ultraomnipotence. We doctors know
a hopeless case if --- listen: there's a hell
of a good universe next door; let's go
Quote from: Cramulus on March 29, 2016, 05:10:30 PM
as I get older, I find myself apologizing on behalf of the world as-is.
I used to get really upset about stuff like "all our choices are the lesser-of-two-evils", our endless consumer obsessions, our meager mental lives
I used to get upset that so much of the world felt like a flat gray monotone.
Now I'm 34 and I've had the daily news and the 9-5 lifestyle beaten into me by a guy that looks like Rowdy Roddy Piper. I can see why it makes sense.
(http://www.standbyformindcontrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/theylive.jpg)
Deep inside, there's a 16 year old kid who is pointing outside and saying listen: there's a hell
of a good universe next door; let's go and I'm saying "shhhh, I've gotta get up for work in the morning"
so I feel it too
'pity this busy monster, manunkind'
ee cummings
pity this busy monster, manunkind,
not. Progress is a comfortable disease:
your victim (death and life safely beyond)
plays with the bigness of his littleness
--- electrons deify one razorblade
into a mountainrange; lenses extend
unwish through curving wherewhen till unwish
returns on its unself.
A world of made
is not a world of born --- pity poor flesh
and trees, poor stars and stones, but never this
fine specimen of hypermagical
ultraomnipotence. We doctors know
a hopeless case if --- listen: there's a hell
of a good universe next door; let's go
They Live..
...We Sleep
That's the second part of the message in the old church. We sleep. The fragments of Hericlitus mention this sad state of affairs. It's been known for a long time that truly "waking up" is a rare achievement or sometimes circumstantial condition. It's almost never the product of a pleasant process. In fact it is our suffering and strife that are our best evidence of wakefulness, the litmus test of reality. Now the system even feeds you synth suffering and provides dreams of convincing "strife" in the daily grind, but truly you never even stirred.