Playing with the idea of making some new posters. For those of you that don't know, POSTERGASM is a discordian project where you put crazy / surreal / funny / mind expanding printouts into public spaces. The idea is to jackknife right into somebody's stream of consciousness and plant a seed that might grow into a full thought.
Here's the central question --
In the Year of Our Lady of Discord 3184 (that's this year, ya spag), what message does the average pedestrian need to hear?
for now, let's focus on the core message... if we can come up with a few good kernels, we can develop corresponding memes which, when dropped into warm water, will gradually expand into a sponge shaped like a dinosaur.
One thought that comes to mind is the environmental crisis.
I saw a meme the other day which put it something like "We only have 130 months to stage a complete revolution. LIBERALS: ok, I guess I shouldn't use shampoo with palm oil"
There's another piece of data floating around which talks about how like 80% of waste is industrial, merely putting cans into a recycling bin and not using dispoasable straws really doesn't fucking matter.
Both of these speak to me -- I grew up with the Environmental Crisis looming on the horizon, and that framing (as something at arms length) actually has a soporific effect. It's an existential crisis that we've gotten used to. Because it's handled by LOL POLITICS, it has this kind of "business as usual" theatrical tone which ensures that nothing fucking happens.
So I think a helpful meme would be one that (a) puts the present moment in a context of being the last minute, and (b) aims our hatchets at the root of the tree, instead of the branches - being industrial (instead of municipal) waste.
Not that I think it'll do any good in the long run or anything, but it's a start
The Gurdjieffian technique called "Self Remembering" is the most useful and mind-expanding practice I've discovered in years. In short form, it involves observing the self, while also being aware of the part of your mind doing the observation. I wish I could give people this gift.
Another writer (Van Vogt) blazed a path to self-remembering, called the "cortical-thalamic pause":
"Van Vogt refers to this system as the cortical-thalamic pause. Instead of reacting immediately and often blindly to a situation, Null-A teaches us to stop and consider our total reaction and options before responding. This requires training for a person to use successfully, particularly on an automatic level. General Semantics, then, offers a method for improving our ability to reason, evaluate, communicate, etc. It involves the recognition and understanding of our thoughts, feelings, bias, judgments, perceptions, assumptions and inferences. It is definitely beneficial for our best interests and survival."
Gurdjieff's practice teases consciousness out of automatism by shining the light of awareness on unconscious factors acting upon us. Evokes Carl Jung's idea that the therapeutic process is about making the unconscious conscious. A standard method for this in the Fourth Way tradition is to raise awareness of the body ("You are now breathing manually"), and the context it exists in. When I Self Remember, I try to see myself through the lens of a distant movie camera. This moment, this exact instant where I'm having this thought, is not going to be cut from the picture, left on the editing room floor. This is the scene. This is the moment. This is isn't the dress rehersal, you only get one life, and this is part of it.
The bubble I've been living in is full of people who need the opposite of a mindfuck right now.
Heh. I was just about to suggest Cram reach out to you about this, QGP, and link him to these:
https://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,38386.0.html
https://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php/topic,38382.0.html
In these trying weird times it is important to remember what is important to us:
SLACK OFF!
Compassion and empathy are the new black
The revolution will not appear in your news feed.
Quote from: Q. G. Pennyworth on November 19, 2018, 04:46:01 PM
The bubble I've been living in is full of people who need the opposite of a mindfuck right now.
This. So:
"Don't Panic, help is on the way."
"The wolves you fear are actually just loud chihuahuas."
"Remember, THEY are afraid of US, too."
"We will survive all of this."
Quote from: Cramulus on November 19, 2018, 03:44:23 PM
One thought that comes to mind is the environmental crisis.
I saw a meme the other day which put it something like "We only have 130 months to stage a complete revolution. LIBERALS: ok, I guess I shouldn't use shampoo with palm oil"
It seems to me that the
tone of this says "Alex Jones."
I know it's trendy for the left to other the shit out of "liberals", but when most people see that, they assume it's Rush Limbaugh talking.
THIS IS ALL NORMAL, BILLY.
<insert non-threatening pic of something that is obviously NOT normal>
"I GOT YOU, BOO"
"The People have your back."
"It's NOT just you."
"Why are you scared when you should be angry?"
"Don't take any guff from the bastards."
"What kind of world do you want?"
Quote from: Faust on November 19, 2018, 05:05:42 PM
The revolution will not appear in your news feed.
Fav line of the thread so far
I think the important layer is that FB has really become one of the places people go to become informed about the world - but becoming genuinely informed is impossible on FB, there is too much of a signal:noise problem, and the newsfeed algorithm is biased. And all that Jaron Lanier stuff about how it's basically stealing your spare CPU cycles and rewiring your brain.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 19, 2018, 07:24:54 PM
THIS IS ALL NORMAL, BILLY.
<insert non-threatening pic of something that is obviously NOT normal>
Like this one, too
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 19, 2018, 07:23:51 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on November 19, 2018, 03:44:23 PM
One thought that comes to mind is the environmental crisis.
I saw a meme the other day which put it something like "We only have 130 months to stage a complete revolution. LIBERALS: ok, I guess I shouldn't use shampoo with palm oil"
It seems to me that the tone of this says "Alex Jones."
I know it's trendy for the left to other the shit out of "liberals", but when most people see that, they assume it's Rush Limbaugh talking.
That's a good point.
I do feel like we're reaching a point where, even if we were to surf some impossibly blue wave, we'd still be completely fucked... The tension surrounding this issue has become "buisness as usual" even as the existential threat has grown more real.
Honestly, I don't think anything will happen until the public receives a terrible "shock", like some coastal city being evacuated permanently, or food supply chains breaking down.
And I think there are probably less than 1000 people in the world who are really "responsible" for how it's going on right now - that is, they are the ones whose hands are actually on the wheel and could execute systemic changes. So in that context, it's not like we plebs can do anything other than get angry and loud. IDK if I can say what shock regular pedestrians "need" to get to that point where they make the environment a central issue for them. It all makes me feel pretty helpless.
(https://i.imgur.com/NLAuXLY.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/CbsYsH3.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/7WSfVfs.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bAaklYm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/so1xbTw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/33DAB26.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/L7srwNV.png)
Quote from: Cramulus on November 19, 2018, 08:16:16 PM
Honestly, I don't think anything will happen until the public receives a terrible "shock", like some coastal city being evacuated permanently, or food supply chains breaking down.
A small city in California burned down last week. 52,000 people are living in refugee facilities. Nobody cares, because the "rugged individualist" indoctrination essentially says "you're on your own when things go wrong."
I think we should maybe try to do something about that, if we have any pretentions about being a force for change.
QuoteAnd I think there are probably less than 1000 people in the world who are really "responsible" for how it's going on right now - that is, they are the ones whose hands are actually on the wheel and could execute systemic changes. So in that context, it's not like we plebs can do anything other than get angry and loud. IDK if I can say what shock regular pedestrians "need" to get to that point where they make the environment a central issue for them. It all makes me feel pretty helpless.
This narrowing of political power is following the same pattern as the last century, more or less exactly on schedule.
But we do have one other option, which is getting angry and loud AND Jacobin. Which is something that maybe those 1000 people need to be reminded is clearly an option.
Yes. Howl nailed it.
Let's try to put an end to the rugged individual meme.
Quote from: Hoopla! on November 19, 2018, 11:18:32 PM
Yes. Howl nailed it.
Let's try to put an end to the rugged individual meme.
Here's the main thing: The rugged individualist meme - alongside American libertarianism in general - is a perfect extension of logic
from an incorrect assumption. Humans are by nature a cooperative species. The mistake made by the RI/Libertarian crowd is that they assume that
To cooperate with the group is to surrender your identity.
And that last bit is the part we have to attack.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 20, 2018, 12:03:26 AM
Quote from: Hoopla! on November 19, 2018, 11:18:32 PM
Yes. Howl nailed it.
Let's try to put an end to the rugged individual meme.
Here's the main thing: The rugged individualist meme - alongside American libertarianism in general - is a perfect extension of logic from an incorrect assumption. Humans are by nature a cooperative species. The mistake made by the RI/Libertarian crowd is that they assume that To cooperate with the group is to surrender your identity.
And that last bit is the part we have to attack.
I can't help but feel that the only problem with this approach is that the people who don't already feel that a community is a good thing are so bogged down with their own false baggage that nothing can change their minds.
Best example of this is "gamer culture", where anyone who tries to bring facts about being not-a-piece-of-shit to the table is just considered brainwashed or a brainwasher. Libertarians and their fellow travelers are (in my experience) no different in this respect. They've internalized "us vs. them" to the point that they automatically consider any deviance from accepted doctrine to be evidence of enemy action.
I want to figure out how to break /that/ first. Thus far, though, I have nothing.
If you have any ideas of your own, I'm genuinely curious about them. Someone whose belief system precludes anything but their own dogma is well defended, and I haven't taken many opportunities to probe that mindset for weaknesses myself.
Quote from: nullified on November 20, 2018, 01:55:33 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 20, 2018, 12:03:26 AM
Quote from: Hoopla! on November 19, 2018, 11:18:32 PM
Yes. Howl nailed it.
Let's try to put an end to the rugged individual meme.
Here's the main thing: The rugged individualist meme - alongside American libertarianism in general - is a perfect extension of logic from an incorrect assumption. Humans are by nature a cooperative species. The mistake made by the RI/Libertarian crowd is that they assume that To cooperate with the group is to surrender your identity.
And that last bit is the part we have to attack.
I can't help but feel that the only problem with this approach is that the people who don't already feel that a community is a good thing are so bogged down with their own false baggage that nothing can change their minds.
Best example of this is "gamer culture", where anyone who tries to bring facts about being not-a-piece-of-shit to the table is just considered brainwashed or a brainwasher. Libertarians and their fellow travelers are (in my experience) no different in this respect. They've internalized "us vs. them" to the point that they automatically consider any deviance from accepted doctrine to be evidence of enemy action.
I want to figure out how to break /that/ first. Thus far, though, I have nothing.
If you have any ideas of your own, I'm genuinely curious about them. Someone whose belief system precludes anything but their own dogma is well defended, and I haven't taken many opportunities to probe that mindset for weaknesses myself.
We are clever monkeys, we can figure something out if we stop and do a little root-cause analysis.
But it's worth mentioning that this shit has had 78 years to grow and it's not going to be easy. In fact, directly approaching it is impossible, for exactly the reasons you stated.
So the only way to do it is to introduce information that attacks the root cause, not the behavior, because monkeys will defend ANYTHING.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 20, 2018, 12:03:26 AM
Quote from: Hoopla! on November 19, 2018, 11:18:32 PM
Yes. Howl nailed it.
Let's try to put an end to the rugged individual meme.
Here's the main thing: The rugged individualist meme - alongside American libertarianism in general - is a perfect extension of logic from an incorrect assumption. Humans are by nature a cooperative species. The mistake made by the RI/Libertarian crowd is that they assume that To cooperate with the group is to surrender your identity.
And that last bit is the part we have to attack.
Maybe a case for non-cooperation leading towards the lack of specialization? Distrust of the species/operating as individuals works into people regressing to more generic goals and identities. A lot of people are familiar with Maslow's 'Hierarchy of Needs Pyramid.' While rugged individualism would ax the upper half of the pyramid as people's identities regress into being formed by their pursuit of physiological needs and security, cooperation is what axes the lower half, so people develop distinctly.
Taking something visually familiar like Maslow's Pyramid for the base of satire? Thinking something like the bottom half 'staying afloat' like the base of an iceberg while the top half is being pushed off into the ocean. Has an environmental focus/provides a visual antagonist
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 20, 2018, 12:03:26 AM
Quote from: Hoopla! on November 19, 2018, 11:18:32 PM
Yes. Howl nailed it.
Let's try to put an end to the rugged individual meme.
Here's the main thing: The rugged individualist meme - alongside American libertarianism in general - is a perfect extension of logic from an incorrect assumption. Humans are by nature a cooperative species. The mistake made by the RI/Libertarian crowd is that they assume that To cooperate with the group is to surrender your identity.
And that last bit is the part we have to attack.
love this
kinda reminded of buckminster fuller's "spaceship earth" concept, of thinking of the world as an interdependent ecology.
Cooperation makes us human
Cooperation enables individuality
Inside you, someone is saying "Tear down this wall"
QGP, I love those images! Those are def going into this hypothetical collection.
Quote from: Cramulus on November 20, 2018, 02:16:42 PM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 20, 2018, 12:03:26 AM
Quote from: Hoopla! on November 19, 2018, 11:18:32 PM
Yes. Howl nailed it.
Let's try to put an end to the rugged individual meme.
Here's the main thing: The rugged individualist meme - alongside American libertarianism in general - is a perfect extension of logic from an incorrect assumption. Humans are by nature a cooperative species. The mistake made by the RI/Libertarian crowd is that they assume that To cooperate with the group is to surrender your identity.
And that last bit is the part we have to attack.
love this
kinda reminded of buckminster fuller's "spaceship earth" concept, of thinking of the world as an interdependent ecology.
Cooperation makes us human
Cooperation enables individuality
Inside you, someone is saying "Tear down this wall"
QGP, I love those images! Those are def going into this hypothetical collection.
I feel a full-on essay coming on.
On topic:
"Admit it, you've always laughed at these bastards."
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 20, 2018, 05:26:53 PM
On topic:
"Admit it, you've always laughed at these bastards."
I like this.
Makes me think of this corruption of Voltaire:
I have never made but one prayer to Eris, a very short one: Oh Lord, make my enemies ridiculous. And God granted it.
In retrospect this was not the wisest request I have made.
As an alternative to, or possibly in addition to trying to neutralize Rugged Indiviualism as a philosophy, maybe it would be also effective to, alternatively, try to redirect it?
Example enclosed:
(http://www.pbtpng.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/rowing-ship.jpg)
who really steers this sip?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 20, 2018, 12:03:26 AM
Quote from: Hoopla! on November 19, 2018, 11:18:32 PM
Yes. Howl nailed it.
Let's try to put an end to the rugged individual meme.
Here's the main thing: The rugged individualist meme - alongside American libertarianism in general - is a perfect extension of logic from an incorrect assumption. Humans are by nature a cooperative species. The mistake made by the RI/Libertarian crowd is that they assume that To cooperate with the group is to surrender your identity.
And that last bit is the part we have to attack.
I strongly agree. You can see it in the endless "Why don't they just..." responses to large-scale problems (displacement, rent being too damn expensive, healthcare costs). We're conditioned, on a pretty large scale, to only think about problems in terms of individual choices, as if your or my personal buying decisions can keep rent and healthcare costs down, or save the environment by boycotting plastic straws.
I lent Cram a book a few weeks ago,
Custom Reality and You, that talks about this. It's very "Online" and would be hard to read for anyone who isn't acquainted with internet weirdos. Luckily, y'all are exactly the right audience for that kind of thing.
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/46516490_1551028031710162_8563221046470115328_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_eui2=AeFNXLrrmJMsQDHOPcY-KpWuId5nvSc-F9q4jM-v-RPCyly5tTAgt8m8FLtKrmBwQUbTbbzzPStO5pg1sH0OHpTUU2FKWb6v_BkjkN4UgMbKvA&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=64604fd3ac37ebb0b2bbcf13aa539385&oe=5CAFD63F)
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 23, 2018, 07:31:13 AM
(https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/46516490_1551028031710162_8563221046470115328_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_eui2=AeFNXLrrmJMsQDHOPcY-KpWuId5nvSc-F9q4jM-v-RPCyly5tTAgt8m8FLtKrmBwQUbTbbzzPStO5pg1sH0OHpTUU2FKWb6v_BkjkN4UgMbKvA&_nc_ht=scontent-sjc3-1.xx&oh=64604fd3ac37ebb0b2bbcf13aa539385&oe=5CAFD63F)
That's something I need to see more of.
How's about this one?
"RUGGED INDIVIDUALISTS OF THE WORLD,UNITE!"
Picture of an idyllic wilderness scene. Clear lake in the foreground, pine forest on one side, mountain in the background.
Caption: "THIS TOO SHALL PASS".
1950's advertising style picture. Man seated in chair, reading paper, smiling as his children play at his feet. Woman walking into room carrying food. (This should feel like an ideal, but an ideal from the wrong era. It's okay if it's ambiguous whether this is supposed to be about concern for the future, or about feminism; the viewer brings their own baggage).
Caption (using a sans-serif, narrow font with a dystopian feel): "THIS TOO SHALL PASS".
Picture of a young child eating an ice-cream cone in a park setting.
Caption (cutesy, cursive font): "THIS TOO SHALL PASS".
Industrial scene. Maybe something from the Victorian era, with buildings spewing smoke into the air, or possibly a modern oil refinery.
Caption: "THIS TOO SHALL PASS"
Picture of a beached whale.
Caption: "THIS TOO SHALL PASS"
Starbucks Logo.
Caption: "THIS TOO SHALL PASS"
Portrait of Trump. Make him look noble and patriotic. American flag in the background, etc.
Caption: "THIS TOO SHALL PASS / and the sooner the better"
I like this, but I would drop the small print on the Trump one.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 20, 2018, 12:03:26 AM
Quote from: Hoopla! on November 19, 2018, 11:18:32 PM
Yes. Howl nailed it.
Let's try to put an end to the rugged individual meme.
Here's the main thing: The rugged individualist meme - alongside American libertarianism in general - is a perfect extension of logic from an incorrect assumption. Humans are by nature a cooperative species. The mistake made by the RI/Libertarian crowd is that they assume that To cooperate with the group is to surrender your identity.
And that last bit is the part we have to attack.
The last bit is either a strawman or a misunderstanding. It's not cooperation that surrenders identity, but assimilation.
All forms of cooperation require some degree of assimilation. To what degree someone must assimilate in order to cooperate, I think, is what the smartest libertarians are wary of.
I've always been bothered by people who declare they did everything themselves. I have probably been guilty of saying it. But I still have a gut instinct to spew at others about how they couldn't possibly have built their empire with their own two hands.
In this light, I submit a bit of a rant:
"We've all heard you talking about how great you are. Bootstrap-puller-upper. You need nothing but a knife to survive.
Well, show us. Demonstrate it. Do. The. Experiment.
You must remember how it started. When your dad drove you through the forest and mocked you for not being able to survive one night in the wild. "If I dropped you off right here, with nothing but your underwear and a pocket knife, how long do you think you'd last?" Well, got an answer yet? When was the last time you tried? You can take it easy on yourself and you don't even have to report the results to anyone. Bring a sleeping bag and some GORP and iodine tabs. I'm curious though, how much fear does just thinking about actually trying that engender in your guts?
Oh, so you're more of an intellectual? You'd make your money in the stock market, if only you had enough seed money? Well Sparky, you can do that experiment too. It doesn't have to be real money. Give yourself whatever you think you need to start. Maybe 1k, 10k, $100,000? Give yourself whatever time you want. Two months, 6 months, two years? It's fake money so just keep track of your buys and sells with a spreadsheet. I want to know - have you actually done it and reduced it to practice? Or are you full of shit?
Oh but you're an artisan? Fine. Give up your day job. Move to a new country. Truly start over. Make your own workshop. Build your own equipment. Trade goods for canvas and mix your own paints. Document the whole thing and sell the movie rights. There are a few people who've done it. I look forward to hearing your story.
But if you haven't done the experiment. Do me a favor? Vote. Pay your taxes. Stop for the school busses. And otherwise - Shut. The. Fuck. Up.
You will note that I don't need to address those that do the experiment. The real world has a way of humbling the prideful. It helps us realize how well we work with others and how much we depend on the kindness and altruism of other bipeds."
Quote from: Zenpatista on November 26, 2018, 02:11:54 AM
I've always been bothered by people who declare they did everything themselves. I have probably been guilty of saying it. But I still have a gut instinct to spew at others about how they couldn't possibly have built their empire with their own two hands.
In this light, I submit a bit of a rant:
"We've all heard you talking about how great you are. Bootstrap-puller-upper. You need nothing but a knife to survive.
Well, show us. Demonstrate it. Do. The. Experiment.
You must remember how it started. When your dad drove you through the forest and mocked you for not being able to survive one night in the wild. "If I dropped you off right here, with nothing but your underwear and a pocket knife, how long do you think you'd last?" Well, got an answer yet? When was the last time you tried? You can take it easy on yourself and you don't even have to report the results to anyone. Bring a sleeping bag and some GORP and iodine tabs. I'm curious though, how much fear does just thinking about actually trying that engender in your guts?
Oh, so you're more of an intellectual? You'd make your money in the stock market, if only you had enough seed money? Well Sparky, you can do that experiment too. It doesn't have to be real money. Give yourself whatever you think you need to start. Maybe 1k, 10k, $100,000? Give yourself whatever time you want. Two months, 6 months, two years? It's fake money so just keep track of your buys and sells with a spreadsheet. I want to know - have you actually done it and reduced it to practice? Or are you full of shit?
Oh but you're an artisan? Fine. Give up your day job. Move to a new country. Truly start over. Make your own workshop. Build your own equipment. Trade goods for canvas and mix your own paints. Document the whole thing and sell the movie rights. There are a few people who've done it. I look forward to hearing your story.
But if you haven't done the experiment. Do me a favor? Vote. Pay your taxes. Stop for the school busses. And otherwise - Shut. The. Fuck. Up.
You will note that I don't need to address those that do the experiment. The real world has a way of humbling the prideful. It helps us realize how well we work with others and how much we depend on the kindness and altruism of other bipeds."
Good rant indeed.
I have indeed done the experiment (several different ones you've suggested in fact — against my will), and you know what?
There is only one way I have consistently found to end in success. Ask for help and offer it in turn.
I have survived since 2014 doing that, with my only support network being random strangers online. Four years of living the "stranger in a strange land" bit, surviving on good will and good intentions and nothing else, far from home with nowhere to turn but back to the electronic overmind of humanity if something collapses. Nothing to offer but hopes and fishing expeditions in the void in case of emergency.
I'm since convinced that the "self made man" of any stripe, even if false but especially if true, is in fact a failure mode of the human condition.
EDIT: That is to say, a "self made man" is a broken individual in the same way as a serial killer or an incel or a Nazi. They have forsaken their own membership in humanity in the mistaken belief of their own superiority. When you take the humanity out of the human, it's hard to say that you've made a successful human, no matter what acts they go on to perform.
Edit2: forgot the right word
It sounds to me like the question is, "When did your individualism start?"
Don't know if this is a series of images, a set of short paragraphs, what have you. Anyway. With all these scenarios, a small set of cases do not apply, but I feel that's not our target demographic. There is also a lot of assumed privilege. I know this. Finally, I will be using absolutist language, don't @eprime me.
Infant, at mother's breast. No one could really believe that a baby is a rugged individual. Almost by definition, and certainly by pragmatic standards, there must be reliance on others.
Child in a library. No need to keep with the parental archetype at this point. But a child learns; and more often than not, they learn through the wisdom of others, be it time-imprinting ideas in a book, or another person sharing knowledge.
Young adult in the capitalist system. They are reliant on bosses to provide money, for stores to provide food, for rentiers to provide shelter.
Middle adult, business owner. Corporations and government systems provide water/electricity/transportation/infrastructure. Note that corporations and governments are combined here, as the point is not what structure provides support, only that it is impossible for the individual to thrive without it.
Senior citizen. Depends on financial institutions and government to provide income/support/stability until death.
Ask the target demographic to point to the place in their lives they ceased being dependent on a larger society for assistance.
Scenarios can be added/adjusted/improved. Please do so.
Quote from: Zenpatista on November 26, 2018, 02:11:54 AM
I've always been bothered by people who declare they did everything themselves. I have probably been guilty of saying it. But I still have a gut instinct to spew at others about how they couldn't possibly have built their empire with their own two hands.
In this light, I submit a bit of a rant:
"We've all heard you talking about how great you are. Bootstrap-puller-upper. You need nothing but a knife to survive.
Well, show us. Demonstrate it. Do. The. Experiment.
You must remember how it started. When your dad drove you through the forest and mocked you for not being able to survive one night in the wild. "If I dropped you off right here, with nothing but your underwear and a pocket knife, how long do you think you'd last?" Well, got an answer yet? When was the last time you tried? You can take it easy on yourself and you don't even have to report the results to anyone. Bring a sleeping bag and some GORP and iodine tabs. I'm curious though, how much fear does just thinking about actually trying that engender in your guts?
Oh, so you're more of an intellectual? You'd make your money in the stock market, if only you had enough seed money? Well Sparky, you can do that experiment too. It doesn't have to be real money. Give yourself whatever you think you need to start. Maybe 1k, 10k, $100,000? Give yourself whatever time you want. Two months, 6 months, two years? It's fake money so just keep track of your buys and sells with a spreadsheet. I want to know - have you actually done it and reduced it to practice? Or are you full of shit?
Oh but you're an artisan? Fine. Give up your day job. Move to a new country. Truly start over. Make your own workshop. Build your own equipment. Trade goods for canvas and mix your own paints. Document the whole thing and sell the movie rights. There are a few people who've done it. I look forward to hearing your story.
But if you haven't done the experiment. Do me a favor? Vote. Pay your taxes. Stop for the school busses. And otherwise - Shut. The. Fuck. Up.
You will note that I don't need to address those that do the experiment. The real world has a way of humbling the prideful. It helps us realize how well we work with others and how much we depend on the kindness and altruism of other bipeds."
Boom.
Quote from: Pope Pelvis Flirtini on November 25, 2018, 01:41:37 AM
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 20, 2018, 12:03:26 AM
Quote from: Hoopla! on November 19, 2018, 11:18:32 PM
Yes. Howl nailed it.
Let's try to put an end to the rugged individual meme.
Here's the main thing: The rugged individualist meme - alongside American libertarianism in general - is a perfect extension of logic from an incorrect assumption. Humans are by nature a cooperative species. The mistake made by the RI/Libertarian crowd is that they assume that To cooperate with the group is to surrender your identity.
And that last bit is the part we have to attack.
The last bit is either a strawman or a misunderstanding. It's not cooperation that surrenders identity, but assimilation.
All forms of cooperation require some degree of assimilation. To what degree someone must assimilate in order to cooperate, I think, is what the smartest libertarians are wary of.
We're humans. You are to some degree part of the pack, or you are driven out of the hunting grounds...Because if you're NOT part of the pack, you are a threat as well as competition. That's just two million plus years of genes and conditioning. Arguing against it is fine, you can do that all day, but that is in fact how it works.
Quote from: Doktor Howl on November 26, 2018, 04:07:45 PM
We're humans. You are to some degree part of the pack, or you are driven out of the hunting grounds...Because if you're NOT part of the pack, you are a threat as well as competition. That's just two million plus years of genes and conditioning. Arguing against it is fine, you can do that all day, but that is in fact how it works.
Maybe. Depends on who you're asking, and also the motives of the person trying to go their own way. Ted Kaczynski preached disengagement from modern society, but even he needed others to disengage with him. He didn't want to be alone out there in the woods, but nobody came to his party so he mail-bombed for attention.
Still, I think there exists a respect and even reverence for those who do become truly self-sustaining. Plus, there's nothing wrong with the goal of being as self-sustaining as possible. There's nothing inherently wrong with keeping societal ties and contracts to a minimum, since obviously not everyone is ever going to do that.
Everything is interdependent, even you.
A lone wolf is a starving wolf,
This goes for humans too.
Independence is a lie.
Help those Others in the world and you will save yourself.
Every tree that stands alone dies alone.
Roots must be interconnected for the branch to flower. You are no different.
Human differences are actually very precious variety.
Nature does not have your best interests at heart.
The heart of a fool says: 'I am all I need.'
The wise see their own security in the well-being of others.
Feed a starving person and the world loses nothing, but we all gain something precious.
Do not turn your back on Humanity. We are all you have.
The devil wants you to be alone so he can talk to you without distraction.
Give mutualism a chance.
Do not be deceived. This world rewards cooperation, not isolation.
Like hypothermia a cold heart needs other's warmth to survive.
Pity the one that does not need friends for Only The Dead Need No One.
Cooperation is the only survival tool you need.
Being alone is just fine, but it's like holding your breath. It can save your life in certain circumstances, but doing it to excess will kill you.
Believe me when I say that the world needs you too.
Sometimes the best thing to do is reach out no matter how difficult it is.
Pride would have you stand alone so that you will topple more readily.
The goodness in the world is like fresh water. If you absorb it it will sustain you. Rejecting it is truly folly.
Never assume you will get what you ask for, but it is worse to assume you won't.
I like the thought of using the Order of The Occult Hand in some printed media, like posters. For those unaware (can't blame you if you are, this thing's not exactly a time-honored tradition :lulz:), the Order was just a group of journalists that decided to screw with people by including "it was as if an occult hand had..." in their articles, much to the chagrin of their publishers. Apparently they still operate, with a group of them having taken on a new code phrase and carrying on in secret since '06. I dunno. A hint of woo could make some posters pop, but I'm at a loss as to how this might be implemented in a more interesting way.