This is an attempt to get my thoughts together about the illusion of the self. I find this stuff comforting - it's the nearest my rationalist ass gets to 'spirituality' - but also very hard to put into words, at least words that don't sound like they're coming from a basement stoner. I won't pretend it's central to, or even part of, Discordianism, but it's part of mine and that's OK. If I ever try to make a holy book I might put it in, between the comic stories about whales that I'm better at.
I'm not sure if it makes any sense at all, to be honest, and I'm a little wary about posting it here. But I think at the very least it's a nice thought experiment, and it's better than arguing.
----
THERE'S NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT YOU
AND THAT'S LIBERATING AS HECK
Don't get me wrong: you're probably all right. In fact, if you're reading this, chances are you're pretty cool. That person rocks. What there's nothing special about is the fact that it's you. The fact that this spark of consciousness happens to be reading through these eyes in this moment.
Just as cosmology tells us that every point in the universe has equal claim to being the 'centre', every sentient being has equal claim to being me.
I believe this is the meaning of, or at least related to, the tenet in both Buddhism and Taoism that the self is an illusion. It's also my solution to both the Zen koan 'This mind is Buddha' and the story about the man pissing in a phone box in the SJ Games Principia. I don't believe in reincarnation, but I think this has similar or even identical implications.
It has fascinating ramifications for empathy, because nobody's happiness is less, or more, important than your own. Same with nobody's sadness, or anger, or misfortune, or education, or virtuousness, or sense of their own success or failure. As far as the universe is concerned, they're all you, same as you are. They are therefore exactly as deserving of your sympathy and care as the person reading this. Love thy neighbour as thy self, because your neighbour is you. The President is you. That person you can't stand? You. Sorry.
This doesn't imply that criminals should go unpunished or even that jerks shouldn't be sneered at, but it does mean that questions around those things should be considered with a view to increasing the net good for everyone. Whatever that means.
And if the self is an illusion, then so is selfishness. If you screw someone else over to benefit 'yourself', all you've done is lowered net happiness. Any selfish act is not only unethical, it's literally pointless. More than that – it's nonsense.
If it's me against you, you got me outnumbered since for every me there's many of you.
Me stays pretty stable in comparison to you who changes identities on a whim like a schizophrenic actor locked in wardrobe.
That's quite special, I think I'd rather be you.
Point on Zen:
The central tenet of Zen Buddhism is that there are no distinctions and no categories, all of that is illusion. A good example of this that logically shows what is meant by it...
Consider a sandy shore on a riverbank. Consider the grassy hill behind it. Consider the tree atop the hill. Consider you yourself, sitting on the beach, watching the river.
Can you determine where the river ends and the beach begins? Where the beach ends and the hill begins? Where the hill ends and the tree begins?
Can you determine where the landscape ends and you begin?
The answer is, surprisingly, no.
Consider that at the edge of the beach, just outside of what appears to be the waterline, water is still flowing through that sand. At the edge of that flow, the water is there but motionless. At the edge of the waterlogged sand, the sand is still damp. It gets progressively less damp as it approaches the hill, where the grass grows in the sand as much as in the dirt at first.
As you go up the hill, the dirt covers the roots of the tree, and a squirrel or a beetle or a child doesn't notice any difference between the ground where there is no root and the ground where there is. Dirt coats the lower edges of the bark, thrown up by rain and wind, painting the bark yellow-brown: the eye can't see the edges.
And you? Sit still long enough and the ants will crawl on you as surely as the earth. Birds will land on your head, shit in your lap, and pull your hair out to line their nests with. You are not separate from the landscape.
Zen Buddhism takes this one extra step further, to the wall as we say.
If you cannot distinguish the river from the beach from the hill from the tree from you, then it's all you. There's nothing else there, reality is you. "I am everything and everything is me," taken extremely literally.
An initial reaction people have to this idea quite often is "but if I come across a monkey, it will remove my arms and shit down my throat out of sheer spite, if it was me I could stop it from doing that". But cancer is you, and it kills you insidiously by choking and draining everything out of you. So really, what distinction is there? Both are parts of you that will kill you dead, you just have a mindset that separates the monkey from the human body, and that distinction is falsehood.
It's one of my favorite things to consider when I'm having a very bad day. Because if I'm having a bad day, EVERYONE is having a bad day.
"The president is you" seems kind of like a normalization of the pee-stained replacement Jesus.
Also, I disagree with the premise. I mean, no offense, but I can believe you or I can believe Mr Rogers.
It's not a strong belief of mine, it's a useful reality tunnel for certain times and places. When I wish to be cruel to someone but that would be a bad idea, or (as stated) on very bad days.
Some other times and places, it's useful to draw very hard boundaries. Certain kinds of bad days allow for no boundary crossing. Anytime you deal with Nazis. Etc.
Quote from: Frontside Back on June 22, 2020, 10:15:24 PM
If it's me against you, you got me outnumbered since for every me there's many of you.
Me stays pretty stable in comparison to you who changes identities on a whim like a schizophrenic actor locked in wardrobe.
That's quite special, I think I'd rather be you.
It's okay, I'll let you out of the bad girl closet now.
LuciferX, making friends and influencing people, everyone.
Can't even treat totally different forum users like human beings, and manages to put his dehumanization in the creepiest incel phrasing possible. What a fucking dipshit.
Quote from: proword on June 23, 2020, 02:03:05 AM
Quote from: Frontside Back on June 22, 2020, 10:15:24 PM
If it's me against you, you got me outnumbered since for every me there's many of you.
Me stays pretty stable in comparison to you who changes identities on a whim like a schizophrenic actor locked in wardrobe.
That's quite special, I think I'd rather be you.
It's okay, I'll let you out of the bad girl closet now.
What the fuck is your problem, dude?
You gonna stalk Altered in every thread?
Quote from: Doktor Howl on June 23, 2020, 02:28:29 AM
Quote from: proword on June 23, 2020, 02:03:05 AM
Quote from: Frontside Back on June 22, 2020, 10:15:24 PM
If it's me against you, you got me outnumbered since for every me there's many of you.
Me stays pretty stable in comparison to you who changes identities on a whim like a schizophrenic actor locked in wardrobe.
That's quite special, I think I'd rather be you.
It's okay, I'll let you out of the bad girl closet now.
What the fuck is your problem, dude?
You gonna stalk Altered in every thread?
Dude, altered IS everything [still enjoying that text]
:lulz:
While I appreciate the attempt to blow smoke up my ass, I'm a feral boar and you stink of cowardice.
Go on, keep being a weird little freak all over the place. Maybe puff your chest out and talk about Clarence and your homies some more, that one got everyone laughing.
Quote from: altered on June 23, 2020, 02:12:22 AM
LuciferX, making friends and influencing people, everyone.
Can't even treat totally different forum users like human beings, and manages to put his dehumanization in the creepiest incel phrasing possible. What a fucking dipshit.
Bitch, I am the intel of incel. (Let's try and keep this thread squirrel free, mkay?)
Quote from: altered on June 23, 2020, 02:44:29 AM
:lulz:
While I appreciate the attempt to blow smoke up my ass, I'm a feral boar and you stink of cowardice.
Go on, keep being a weird little freak all over the place. Maybe puff your chest out and talk about Clarence and your homies some more, that one got everyone laughing.
Dude, don't make me show you Clarence. I really don't want to anymore plastic surgery.
ETA
I LIKE the way I look now, just so YOU don't get it twisted
Whips out a yo-yo
At this point there's not even joy left in this bitter task. I just have to keep on crushing LuciferX into the ground methodically, because it's how I was built.
He's not doing anything but spasmodically belching non-sequiturs now, and still I have no choice but to point out I have yet to meet Germ, see the results of using Clarence, or find out about "where [he] was at". I haven't heard hide nor hair of Craig or Moan, and my doxx remain conspicuously unposted.
All powder, no lead. It's like a guy talking about how big his dick is because he can't get it up for anyone to disprove him.
Well, I owe him for 2014, so I have no problem putting the boot in.
THAT BEING SAID, Nyborj, would you like all this horseshit split out of your thread? All you gotta do is ask when this kind of crap happens.
:lulz: Sorry, yeah, it's easier to get our monkey on wherever convenient and remove the trash later around these parts. You'll see topics made in 2005 that have ten pages of nasty mean spirited bullshit from 2010 at the end, it's a feature of the forum.
I personally support splitting it out, though it's not my call to make afaik.
I think Nyborj deserves it
QuoteWell, I owe him for 2014, so I have no problem putting the boot in.
Split the thread and we're even sorted.
Quote from: Nyborj the Priest on June 22, 2020, 09:51:10 PM
THERE'S NOTHING SPECIAL ABOUT YOU
AND THAT'S LIBERATING AS HECK
I like what you've done here, kind of an intro to the value of ego-death.
In the Gurdjieff cult thing I'm in, we practice this shift of consciousness that comes with 'non-identification'. The idea is basically to learn to stop being inside of an emotion or thought, to develop something that exists outside of it, which watches your reactions.
Normally, when you experience something, you react automatically. Someone says something that upsets you - did you choose to get upset? No. It's like a chemical reaction. You are inside of that reaction, 'identified' with it.
The trick, however, is to react
intentionally. To choose your response, instead of letting it arise mechanically from our predictable human machinery.
My best trick to do this is to visualize a camera in the room with me, like some director is putting this scene into a movie. Try it out right now, visualize what you'd look like if this moment was a scene in a TV show. Maybe I get a precious glimpse of how I appear to others. I get a different perspective on my automatic reactions, because I'm not inside of them.
In this state, I find that Self feels different. It's no longer centered on my body. The Watcher, the imaginary perspective I created to observe myself -- it's not exactly
inside of me, in fact, it's partially inside of other people.
Sometimes it feels like the director has created all these relationships and characters... so, in this drama, we
feel like friends and enemies and strangers -- but ultimately, these are just roles.. when we're doing shooting, we're all taking off our costumes and going to an afterparty together.
This is what the Sacred Movements are about, too... but I digress.
Give me a little space, I'm gonna crawl out on a crazy tree branch. Nyborj, we've just met, so I'll just preface this post with an assertion that I'm not a "Christian". Cause otherwise it may sound like I'm doing this weird evangelical shtick.
in a conspiratorial tone,
like some sketchy guy in an alley, wearing a trenchcoat, a throaty whisper:
"Do you want to know what Christianity is
really about? It's not about any of that shit they talk about in church.... let me tell you the
real deal..."
"Esoteric Christianity"
Your post --- When people talk about letting Jesus into your heart, that's secretly what it really means. Transcending from small self to big self, from the individual ego to the shared ego. It's about letting something into you, something which can see from a higher perspective, and whatever that is -- it doesn't buy into the illusions we're so obsessed with.
That sense you describe--that selfishness is pointless because it only serves the individual, and the self is actually much bigger than the individual--that's one of the things that the Orthodox church always tries to stamp out. Empathy and community are the path to knowing god--not the priest. Ego-death, identifying with the other, is a true Gnostic experience. It puts us into contact with reality in a way a priest cannot.
Some of the ancient writers hinted at this... From the Apocryphal Gospel of Thomas:
Quote3. Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you.
When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."
Read "To know oneself" as "to know that you are all" & "you are not your fucking khakis"
When you know you're everyone, then you understand that we're all everyone. If you don't know that, you live in the poverty of the small self.
Quote8. And he said, "The person is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of little fish. Among them the wise fisherman discovered a fine large fish. He threw all the little fish back into the sea, and easily chose the large fish. Anyone here with two good ears had better listen!"
the small fish are small selves
The big self is what we're after.
Quote15. Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, fall on your faces and worship. That one is your Father."
all individuals are born of woman
the big self, who contains all these selves, was not born.
okay I could keep going, but hopefully you get the picture and haven't dismissed me as a raving evangelical christian. "Just because I'm crazy doesn't mean I'm wrong."
now I've quoted conspiracy-theory jesus scripture on the forum. I'm sorry, and you are all welcome to pelt me with rocks and dead animals.
I am a fan of Gnostic Jesus, especially from Mary Magdelene and Judas' POV (the latter because it supports Roger's "Malevolent God" theory. Thanks for that, Cram
Quote from: LMNO on June 23, 2020, 03:44:00 PM
I am a fan of Gnostic Jesus, especially from Mary Magdelene and Judas' POV (the latter because it supports Roger's "Malevolent God" theory. Thanks for that, Cram
Also, the gospel of Judas. All it's missing is light sabers.
My personal take is that this discourse is like variants of Mao and Kant, just throwing it out there for now, but i gotta jump to a videocall... idk if i should have waited, but I'll make a longer comment after.
Edit: Idk if the forum is spazzing out or its on my side, but getting correction errors, so ill comment when it stabilizes.
Quote from: Cramulus on June 23, 2020, 01:52:46 PM
My best trick to do this is to visualize a camera in the room with me, like some director is putting this scene into a movie. Try it out right now, visualize what you'd look like if this moment was a scene in a TV show. Maybe I get a precious glimpse of how I appear to others. I get a different perspective on my automatic reactions, because I'm not inside of them.
I've been studying body image disorders lately. What begins as healthy self awareness can lead to all kinds of problems when you cannot turn it off any more. Having to think all the time how you present yourself to the outside can be debilitating.
I get you are not advocating for that, but do realize the same problem can be approached from multiple directions.
If i understood correctly, what "isn't special about us" is the "fact" (assumption id say), that we are all "conscious".
One could speak about it in two principal manners: A) In the sense that it's a rejection of solipsism, to signify that others exist beyond their utility for our own personal uses (which i can agree with).... and B) i dont really think people are as conscious as you would have believe, so "consciousness" is indeed something special.
So despite that i think you are speaking of point A and point B, point B seems like just a passing reference, so I wont get into that.
Now, point A I do not think follows the further points: "that nobody's happiness is more important than others"; "everyone is everyone" and that we should "try to achieve the net good for all".
It is a very extended myth that egocentric people and psychopaths are incapable of empathy, its not that they dont "recognize the existance of others beyond soulless automatons", its that they do not give a flying fuck... some of these people, not all of course, have great social abilities, understanding other's feelings and desires, and that's how they manage to manipulate others to further their own goals. Perhaps they're synonymous terms, but empathy does not equal symphaty... knowing about someone's emotions or potential suffering does not equal feeling pain when they feel pain.
Which brings me to the next point... Ego boundaries. A fictional or historical figure such as Jesus, lacked a functioning Ego barrier (this Ego barrier theme is ad nauseum handled in Neon Genesis Evangelion, funny thing), therefore he could feel the pain of others as his own, and look where it got him, nailed to a cross like criminal scum. This very much goes in line with what Altered spoke of in the last lines of what he wrote - just because one wants to get rid of one's own Ego barrier, does not mean that others will give you the same benefit.
Now, Frontside spoke of some sort of "psychotic dynamic identification", which sounds similar, but im sticking with my idea of lack of Ego barrier, similar to what Cram was speaking of in the sense of this "Christian shared ego" (which i dont think its truly a "shared ego", but rather a "hijacked ego" which always happens in organized religion).
And finally, along the lines of Dr. Howl, which is a reaction to the subtext of your discourse but not neccesarily the explicit part... fuck you, me and everyone are special, and thinking otherwise is the path to working in a Lithium mine with zero health and safety ordenance and that's exactly the mentality that every totalitarian has. And your "working for the net good of all", fuck that noise too, i think that literally anyone that uses that line is a naive fascist at heart, thinking that they know "what is good for everyone" and with the slightest chance or power given to them they would rush to impose it upon others - to make an omelette you gotta break some eggs, right? As long as its for the greater good.
Quote from: The Johnny on June 24, 2020, 04:16:56 PMAnd finally, along the lines of Dr. Howl, which is a reaction to the subtext of your discourse but not neccesarily the explicit part... fuck you, me and everyone are special
I agree. The difference between "no one is special" and "everyone is special" is semantic. Nobody is
more special, if you like.
QuoteAnd your "working for the net good of all", fuck that noise too, i think that literally anyone that uses that line is a naive fascist at heart, thinking that they know "what is good for everyone" and with the slightest chance or power given to them they would rush to impose it upon others - to make an omelette you gotta break some eggs, right? As long as its for the greater good.
Oh, I don't think I know what it is. I don't even know what it
means. Anyone who claims to know either needs to be treated with absolute suspicion.
(And for the record, I don't usually agree about breaking eggs to make omelettes. Except, like, non-metaphorical omelettes, in which case there's probably a way to do it by boiling an egg in a centrifuge or something.)
If that makes it meaningless for you (or everyone), oh well. I'm not really trying to convince anyone. It works for me.
Quote from: Frontside Back on June 23, 2020, 05:42:57 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on June 23, 2020, 01:52:46 PM
My best trick to do this is to visualize a camera in the room with me, like some director is putting this scene into a movie. Try it out right now, visualize what you'd look like if this moment was a scene in a TV show. Maybe I get a precious glimpse of how I appear to others. I get a different perspective on my automatic reactions, because I'm not inside of them.
I've been studying body image disorders lately. What begins as healthy self awareness can lead to all kinds of problems when you cannot turn it off any more. Having to think all the time how you present yourself to the outside can be debilitating.
I get you are not advocating for that, but do realize the same problem can be approached from multiple directions.
I KNOW WHATS GOING ON!!!
Quote from: minuspace on June 25, 2020, 03:29:10 AM
Quote from: Frontside Back on June 23, 2020, 05:42:57 PM
Quote from: Cramulus on June 23, 2020, 01:52:46 PM
My best trick to do this is to visualize a camera in the room with me, like some director is putting this scene into a movie. Try it out right now, visualize what you'd look like if this moment was a scene in a TV show. Maybe I get a precious glimpse of how I appear to others. I get a different perspective on my automatic reactions, because I'm not inside of them.
I've been studying body image disorders lately. What begins as healthy self awareness can lead to all kinds of problems when you cannot turn it off any more. Having to think all the time how you present yourself to the outside can be debilitating.
I get you are not advocating for that, but do realize the same problem can be approached from multiple directions.
I KNOW WHATS GOING ON!!!
What a waste of screen space you are, welcome to my ignore list.