Sermon on Eristicism 14:
Your Kind of Freedom? (part one)In response to a little trouble that St. Kallista had with some dumb hokies...
Before I get started, I will quote from a book that anyone interested in freedom and blowing the mind may wish to read...The quotes set the stage for the startling realization that many of you who claim to live in these 'wonderful' free societies are actually living on the spoils of mass-murder, war, dispossession, and cultural eradication while denying anything of the sort.
Quote"Historians and politicians once liked to boast of the slaughter of Indians that characterized the European and Euro-American conquest of North America...
In the post-Nazi era, however, gloating over genocide has fallen out of vogue. In its place are discussions of the sad "inevitability" of the native peoples' destruction, of the "unintentionally" unleashed European diseases that are said to have done all the damage, and of the kind efforts of the European invaders to find a "middle ground" of accommodation and understanding between themselves and the Indians - generosities fated to fail, alas, because of the Indian leaders' alleged inability to "control" their warriors. It has been quite an intellectual pirouette to behold: from proudly taking credit for mass murder to blaming the victim - from open celebration of genocide to genocide denial - in just a few short generations."
-David E. Stannard (from the preface to Ward Churchill's "A Little Matter of Genocide")
Quote"We hear only of "Indian Wars," never of "settlers' wars." It is as if the natives, always "warlike" and "aggressive," had invaded and laid waste to London or Castile rather than engaging in desperate and always futile efforts to repel the hordes of "pioneers" and "peaceful settlers" overrunning their homelands - often quite illegally, even in their own terms - from sea to shining sea. It is a kind of historiography one might have expected of nazi academics a century after a German victory in World War II: "When the Poles, led by sullen Jewish chiefs, savagely attacked our innocent troops west of Warsaw in 1939, murdering thousands, we were forced to respond by..."
The American holocaust was and remains unparalleled, both in terms of its magnitude and the degree to which its goals were met, and in terms of the extent to which its ferocity was sustained over time by not one but several participating groups. The ideological matrix of its denial is also among the most well developed of any genocide - or, more accurately, series of genocides - for which a significant amount of information is readily available (i.e. copious official and unofficial primary records of the processes, explicit statements of intent by perpetrators, published philosophical justifications of the results, and so on). "
-Ward Churchill (from "A little Matter of Genocide")
Your time is about up. You land thieves and murderers. You can deny it all you want and say "I didn't kill anyone. I didn't steal anyone's livelihood or land." But on whose land are you living right now? Whose country is it? You'll lie and go through all sorts of justifications for staying exactly where you are because at heart you don't feel that indigenous people have any right to exist. Not much has changed, predator, except the fact that your social blindness and individual greed will wipe you from the planet.
Your kind of freedom is wealth for the few and slavery for the many. Your kind of freedom is the freedom to steal countries and then legalize the theft by claiming they belong to "all people," whatever that means. (More like "all people" so long as they look and act like you.) Your kind of freedom is to attack innocent people by the thousands and claim to the world that you are bringing them democracy and are destroying terrorism/communism/fascism/savages/whatever the bogeyman is at the time. Your kind of freedom is the freedom to only wave the red-white-and-blue and force everyone else to want the same kind of freedom. Your kind of freedom is the freedom to enslave and despise all the while saying that things are different nowadays and that we as people should all "move on," whatever that means. (More like "move on" because the issue is inconvenient and you want to appear that you have changed without actually changing.)
Your kind of freedom keeps nations dispossessed of their lands and then you say it is impractical to restore those nations to their rightful places. (More like impractical to admit that your settler societies are wrong and are a scourge that should be punished for their crimes.) Your kind of freedom is a sickening virus that has ravaged millions of human beings and countless other living things to maintain your consumerist fantasies. Your kind of freedom is the freedom to go anywhere you wish and burn as much fuel as you want because you can pay for such extravagance and the right to pollute. Your kind of freedom is the freedom that mentally challenged societies like yours imagine and dream about all along: the freedom to eat, and spend, and get laid, and eat, and spend while letting someone else (like your underclass slaves) do the work of producing all you eat and spend. Your kind of freedom is the freedom to wallow in the filth like a pig and claiming that you are advanced spiritually and mentally, even as your retardation clouds your soul with expressions like "I just need to find myself" or "We are all equally on the path that's right for ourselves" or even "Stick to the path of heart." What utter diarrhea! Does anyone who spouts such crap even have an inkling of how much of a nothing that expressions like that carry?
Your kind of freedom is as one dimensional as Thomas Jefferson and George Washington in their "fight" against tyranny. More like a fight against England because the King decided to prohibit further settler/colonial expansion by declaring in 1763 that the boundary of all colonies was at the Appalachians. The land west was to remain under sovereign Native control.) Both of those men had substantial holdings west of the Appalachians and stood to loose millions of acres and infinite profits (from tobacco) if they were to obey the new law. Jefferson and Washington were both proto-nazis in that they supported the extermination of indigenous people so that the land would be cleared up for Anglo-Saxon settlement. (It was a lebensraumpolitik that later inspired Adolph Hitler.) This is YOUR kind of freedom.
What will you do when the land decides to belch and cover you with ash? It really doesn't matter. As if anything you could do then would change a thing. Besides you have had all this time to change your direction and have accomplished absolutely fuck all, so why would anything be different because of a little environmental trouble is coming your way? You can pray to Eris, but what are you going to do when you realize that She is the one who done it all?
Forget you ever heard/read this. It will worm its way through your mind irregardless.
[march.15.2005]
Ward Churchill is about to be fired from his job at an institute
dedicated to freedom of speech (Colorado University) for being too free
with his speech. His boss just resigned under pressure from politicians,
and as soon as they can get somebody more compliant in her job, he will
be unceremoniously canned as well.
Ironically, when I brought up what was happening to him on this website,
everyone pretty much agreed he got what he deserved.
Quote from: gnimbleyWard Churchill is about to be fired from his job at an institute
dedicated to freedom of speech (Colorado University) for being too free
with his speech. His boss just resigned under pressure from politicians,
and as soon as they can get somebody more compliant in her job, he will
be unceremoniously canned as well.
Ironically, when I brought up what was happening to him on this website,
everyone pretty much agreed he got what he deserved.
That's because it's the same as it ever was. No whiteys ever give a shit about any Indians, except to steal from them and take their lands. Opies can't even understand where someone as smart and level headed as Mr. Churchill is coming from....A little matter of context is in order. But most white people can't see shit if it's more than three inches away from their remote controls anyway.
The more I think about what Ward Churchhill has to say, the more I think he is correct. I stared out thinking that the people who died didn't deserve it...but the more I think about it, the more I see that they did. And alot more people probably deserved it to. Most people's attitudes to the Arabs are/were what St. Hugh was saying about the Indians, they're lower class citizens. They believe in a different God, they have different customs, and they aren't as *ahem* advanced as we are (of course, when you consider the plethora of things they invented that we use, that arguement falls flat on it's face...unless you're a redneck like Dubbya).
They consented to letting the goverment use the Arabs so blatently against the Russians, they consented when the Goverment put Sadam in power (whoops! Dubbya never mentioned that!). But, of course, the majority of the American People need to wake up and smell the bullshit instead of towing the party line, "We're good because we're Americans!" No, thats what the Nazi's thought too, "We're good because we're Germans!" But, if you were to mention that to them you'd probably be punched.
Any way Hugh, nice rant.
Why thank you.
Yep. It says a lot to point out that the "They deserve to be bombed and attacked because they're evil" line of thinking is what the Evil(tm) folks like the Nazis said. Heh. The Welsh used to have a saying that applies to this: "He who would kill a dog must first call it mad."
Its still like that in parts of Europe, you wouldnt believe the amount of bullshit that goes on unnoticed. Or maybe you would. The British Empire is still worshipped in the UK. Tell that to the Aborigines in Australia who were hunted like wild animals. Tell that to those who lived in abject poverty in India. This country I live in invented the concetration camp, first suggested gassing villages for "being troublesome". This country stole peoples lives, land and gold over 25% of the globe. And this was our "Golden Age". People wonder why I have an urge to kill people who talk about the "glory days" of the Empire. Apparently it was all for "progress" though, which makes it all right.
Quote from: ScribeIts still like that in parts of Europe, you wouldnt believe the amount of bullshit that goes on unnoticed. Or maybe you would. The British Empire is still worshipped in the UK. Tell that to the Aborigines in Australia who were hunted like wild animals. Tell that to those who lived in abject poverty in India. This country I live in invented the concetration camp, first suggested gassing villages for "being troublesome". This country stole peoples lives, land and gold over 25% of the globe. And this was our "Golden Age". People wonder why I have an urge to kill people who talk about the "glory days" of the Empire. Apparently it was all for "progress" though, which makes it all right.
Yeah. I seem to remember that the British were the first to actually gas the Kurds. (Seems Saddam was only the latest upstart in Kurd-gassery.) The British also invented the slave plantation, in Ireland, to try to herd the Irish into starvation. (It almost worked. Fuck, it did work. The Irish are almost as English as the English are these days.) The plantation was then used in the Americas by both Anglo and Spaniard alike to work the Indians to death and then when they ran out of the millions of Indians, they went ahead and imported Africans. Heh. What a big mongolian clusterfuck!
What the English did in Ireland alone is enough to qualify the entire damn country being wiped off the face of the Earth. And I suspect it was probably worse elsewhere, there just arent any records or that closenss to Britain to prove it. The recent case in Kenya concerning British war crimes (kept very quiet over here) being a case in point.
Quote from: ScribeWhat the English did in Ireland alone is enough to qualify the entire damn country being wiped off the face of the Earth. And I suspect it was probably worse elsewhere, there just arent any records or that closenss to Britain to prove it. The recent case in Kenya concerning British war crimes (kept very quiet over here) being a case in point.
Actually there are quite a bit of records for it. For the Irish case and especially for the colonial Americas. There is everything from census numbers to inventories of what was stolen from Indians. Numbers killed, burned, hanged, and in what manner they met their deaths. Records of planned smallpox outbreaks. Letters urging the settlers to burn down Indian homes and buildings and destroy their crops so that they would be famished and die off from diseases. There's a whole fucking library of records.
Shit. Well I know only really about Africa and Asia and either the records are being sat on by someone in a place thats hard to find (quite likely) or they just didnt bother.
Quote from: ScribeShit. Well I know only really about Africa and Asia and either the records are being sat on by someone in a place thats hard to find (quite likely) or they just didnt bother.
African records are voluminous too. In fact the only reason why people haven't looked into much of them yet is the "why bother it's not us" attitude.
Quote from: Irreverend Hugh, KSCQuote from: ScribeShit. Well I know only really about Africa and Asia and either the records are being sat on by someone in a place thats hard to find (quite likely) or they just didnt bother.
African records are voluminous too. In fact the only reason why people haven't looked into much of them yet is the "why bother it's not us" attitude.
I had suspected some of it may be down to racism, "who cares, they are only Africans/Asians/not caucasian" type thinking. I bet some of the people reponsible for those atrocities are still sitting in our House of Lords. And thats just from the time of the break up the empire, which barely touches upon it.
Quote from: ScribeQuote from: Irreverend Hugh, KSCQuote from: ScribeShit. Well I know only really about Africa and Asia and either the records are being sat on by someone in a place thats hard to find (quite likely) or they just didnt bother.
African records are voluminous too. In fact the only reason why people haven't looked into much of them yet is the "why bother it's not us" attitude.
I had suspected some of it may be down to racism, "who cares, they are only Africans/Asians/not caucasian" type thinking. I bet some of the people reponsible for those atrocities are still sitting in our House of Lords. And thats just from the time of the break up the empire, which barely touches upon it.
Heh. Well, here the Nazoids run the whole damn show. Look at our damned president. What a fucking freakshow!
You all won't belive this but I'm gonna tell you anyway. I was born in Oklahoma in what USED to be Commanche Territory. being born in Oklahoma means you have to study OK History that means you have to learn the Wasichu version of the indian wars-unless like me you have the Great Great Grandson of Quannah Parker as your History Teacher! I learned the Commanche version. I later read BURY MY HEART AT WOUNDED KNEE. By the time I was 15, I fervently wished to be ANYTHING but white! I tried for years to 'connect' with Genuine Lakota Sioux Holy men or ANY Holey man who wasn't white. I finally realized that they don't WANT us WASIChU to learn about their sacred ways. What they want is for us to fuck off and allow them to carry on their own traditions without interferrence! White people are-in a sense spiritually bereft. 'Our' tradition is dominantly Judeo-Christian. The problem is that the lineage has been broken so many ways to Sunday that No One can rely on any version of Christianity to be wholey, Holy and consistently compassionate without REMAKING it wholesale in the present because it's history is tied up in bloodshed and crusade. At least Eris is funny! :twisted:
Damn, how'd I miss this a month ago. Anyway, I'll be sure to look for that book
Quote from: verbYou all won't belive this but I'm gonna tell you anyway. I was born in Oklahoma in what USED to be Commanche Territory. being born in Oklahoma means you have to study OK History that means you have to learn the Wasichu version of the indian wars-unless like me you have the Great Great Grandson of Quannah Parker as your History Teacher! I learned the Commanche version. I later read BURY MY HEART AT WOUNDED KNEE. By the time I was 15, I fervently wished to be ANYTHING but white! I tried for years to 'connect' with Genuine Lakota Sioux Holy men or ANY Holey man who wasn't white. I finally realized that they don't WANT us WASIChU to learn about their sacred ways. What they want is for us to fuck off and allow them to carry on their own traditions without interferrence! White people are-in a sense spiritually bereft. 'Our' tradition is dominantly Judeo-Christian. The problem is that the lineage has been broken so many ways to Sunday that No One can rely on any version of Christianity to be wholey, Holy and consistently compassionate without REMAKING it wholesale in the present because it's history is tied up in bloodshed and crusade. At least Eris is funny! :twisted:
I believe it. The fact that you used the word "wasichu" was pretty surprising. I haven't heard that one in a while. And you are right, Native people don't want us mucking around with their sacred traditions...isn't bad enough to steal the lands and destroy the cultures? Now whites want to take the spirituality too? Most of the New Age is nothing more than WASICHUs ripping off native traditions, or stereotyping them.
The really SAD thing is that HAD we kept out of Trutle Island as a colony and negotiated from afar with Native Americans as a Sovereign Nation, We MIGHT JUST POSSIBLY have been cautiously invited into their Sacred Circle. Then again maybe not! :roll:
Quote from: verbThe really SAD thing is that HAD we kept out of Trutle Island as a colony and negotiated from afar with Native Americans as a Sovereign Nation, We MIGHT JUST POSSIBLY have been cautiously invited into their Sacred Circle. Then again maybe not! :roll:
Nah!
No way. That would mean the Irish would have been allowed to stay in Ireland. (Don't kid yourself...the native Irish were mostly kicked off of Ireland.) That would mean that the Spanish would have met the Aztecs and said "You fuckers are cool!" But no, the Spaniards decided to destroy the only civilization they had ever seen.....
That would mean that Bush would not be president.
Hugh, YOU'RE a fine one to lecture on freedom. :lol:
Quote from: Irreverend Hugh, KSC
Nah!
No way. That would mean the Irish would have been allowed to stay in Ireland. (Don't kid yourself...the native Irish were mostly kicked off of Ireland.) That would mean that the Spanish would have met the Aztecs and said "You fuckers are cool!" But no, the Spaniards decided to destroy the only civilization they had ever seen .....
That would mean that Bush would not be president.
And, the Brits in control during the 'potato famine' taxed the people, there was food. Food,
including potatoes was exported
out of Ireland during the famine. People were starving to death in the streets, and food was being taken out of their mouths. Of course they left the land their families had lived on for hundreds of years, it was either that or die.
The only civilization :lol: :lol: :lol: The Aztecs would make us look like monkeys. Not apes, monkeys.
Quote from: Eldora, Oracle of AlchemyQuote from: Irreverend Hugh, KSC
Nah!
No way. That would mean the Irish would have been allowed to stay in Ireland. (Don't kid yourself...the native Irish were mostly kicked off of Ireland.) That would mean that the Spanish would have met the Aztecs and said "You fuckers are cool!" But no, the Spaniards decided to destroy the only civilization they had ever seen .....
That would mean that Bush would not be president.
And, the Brits in control during the 'potato famine' taxed the people, there was food. Food, including potatoes was exported out of Ireland during the famine. People were starving to death in the streets, and food was being taken out of their mouths. Of course they left the land their families had lived on for hundreds of years, it was either that or die.
The only civilization :lol: :lol: :lol: The Aztecs would make us look like monkeys. Not apes, monkeys.
If one civilization ever deserved what they got, it was the Aztecs.
Quote from: Ghost In The Machine
If one civilization ever deserved what they got, it was the Aztecs.
What in the world would make you say something as ridiculous as that, dahling? They had astronomy, pyramids, corn, sounds lovely to me, I think you are just being a dick for no good reason.
Human sacrifice, slavery of opposing tribes, not much of an immune system....
Quote from: ainiQuote from: Ghost In The Machine
If one civilization ever deserved what they got, it was the Aztecs.
What in the world would make you say something as ridiculous as that, dahling? They had astronomy, pyramids, corn, sounds lovely to me, I think you are just being a dick for no good reason.
Other than sacrificing human beings and slavery?
Genocidal warfare?
Quote from: Ghost In The MachineQuote from: ainiQuote from: Ghost In The Machine
If one civilization ever deserved what they got, it was the Aztecs.
What in the world would make you say something as ridiculous as that, dahling? They had astronomy, pyramids, corn, sounds lovely to me, I think you are just being a dick for no good reason.
Other than sacrificing human beings and slavery?
Genocidal warfare?
Quote from: LMNOHuman sacrifice, slavery of opposing tribes, not much of an immune system....
All of these things are in the bible, which means those cultures engaged in these activities. Our culture has done all these things. Every culture seems to go through a phase of human sacrifice, either that or it becomes part of the history, according to those who write the history. Can either of you tell me of a People who never had slavery or human sacrifice?
It really is a pity about the immune systems of the native peoples of the Americas. It would have been so much more interesting if more of them could have been exposed to the European diseases before the Europeans got to their shores. Much, much, more interesting.
Yes, but the Aztecs raised it to proportions practically unheard of until modern times, in sacrafices anyway. I think it was roughly 1000 people a week at the height of their empire. They purposefully created dissent by use of spies as a reason to go into towns recently taken over and sacrafice the lot of them. Very nasty, very calculated.
Quote from: ainiQuote from: Ghost In The MachineQuote from: ainiQuote from: Ghost In The Machine
If one civilization ever deserved what they got, it was the Aztecs.
What in the world would make you say something as ridiculous as that, dahling? They had astronomy, pyramids, corn, sounds lovely to me, I think you are just being a dick for no good reason.
Other than sacrificing human beings and slavery?
Genocidal warfare?
Quote from: LMNOHuman sacrifice, slavery of opposing tribes, not much of an immune system....
All of these things are in the bible, which means those cultures engaged in these activities. Our culture has done all these things. Every culture seems to go through a phase of human sacrifice, either that or it becomes part of the history, according to those who write the history. Can either of you tell me of a People who never had slavery or human sacrifice?
It really is a pity about the immune systems of the native peoples of the Americas. It would have been so much more interesting if more of them could have been exposed to the European diseases before the Europeans got to their shores. Much, much, more interesting.
You didn't read my original position very carefully. I said if any culture ever got what it deserved, it was the Aztecs.
Western civilization is/was just as bad, it just never got what it deserves.
Quote from: ScribeYes, but the Aztecs raised it to proportions practically unheard of until modern times, in sacrafices anyway. I think it was roughly 1000 people a week at the height of their empire. They purposefully created dissent by use of spies as a reason to go into towns recently taken over and sacrafice the lot of them. Very nasty, very calculated.
They were sacrificing to their gods to try to help them, they were desperate and foolish and sad.
Quote from: ainiQuote from: ScribeYes, but the Aztecs raised it to proportions practically unheard of until modern times, in sacrafices anyway. I think it was roughly 1000 people a week at the height of their empire. They purposefully created dissent by use of spies as a reason to go into towns recently taken over and sacrafice the lot of them. Very nasty, very calculated.
They were sacrificing to their gods to try to help them, they were desperate and foolish and sad.
They were savages, in the perjorative sense of the word.
Quote from: Ghost In The Machine
You didn't read my original position very carefully. I said if any culture ever got what it deserved, it was the Aztecs.
Western civilization is/was just as bad, it just never got what it deserves.
No, I read it, I suspect you are the one with difficulty in the area of reading comprehension, ALL cultures have at some point sacrificed humans, it seems to come with the territory, many have fallen, many will yet fall. What is this Western Civ of which you speak? European? British? Mediterranean? Russian? Perhaps you are thinking farther back, Roman or Greek? Read some more books, talk to some veterans, or at least watch the history channel, there is no such thing as western civ, it is an illusion. Or rather, a collection of illusions, I think you need to grow up.
Quote from: ainiQuote from: Ghost In The Machine
You didn't read my original position very carefully. I said if any culture ever got what it deserved, it was the Aztecs.
Western civilization is/was just as bad, it just never got what it deserves.
No, I read it, I suspect you are the one with difficulty in the area of reading comprehension, ALL cultures have at some point sacrificed humans, it seems to come with the territory, many have fallen, many will yet fall. What is this Western Civ of which you speak? European? British? Mediterranean? Russian? Perhaps you are thinking farther back, Roman or Greek? Read some more books, talk to some veterans, or at least watch the history channel, there is no such thing as western civ, it is an illusion. Or rather, a collection of illusions, I think you need to grow up.
Get back to me when you can be civil, okay?
Quote from: Ghost In The MachineQuote from: ainiQuote from: Ghost In The Machine
You didn't read my original position very carefully. I said if any culture ever got what it deserved, it was the Aztecs.
Western civilization is/was just as bad, it just never got what it deserves.
No, I read it, I suspect you are the one with difficulty in the area of reading comprehension, ALL cultures have at some point sacrificed humans, it seems to come with the territory, many have fallen, many will yet fall. What is this Western Civ of which you speak? European? British? Mediterranean? Russian? Perhaps you are thinking farther back, Roman or Greek? Read some more books, talk to some veterans, or at least watch the history channel, there is no such thing as western civ, it is an illusion. Or rather, a collection of illusions, I think you need to grow up.
Get back to me when you can be civil, okay?
I was being quite civil, you have yet to answer my questions, this has become rather boring to me now, so be gone with you.
Quote from: ainiQuote from: Ghost In The MachineQuote from: ainiQuote from: Ghost In The Machine
You didn't read my original position very carefully. I said if any culture ever got what it deserved, it was the Aztecs.
Western civilization is/was just as bad, it just never got what it deserves.
No, I read it, I suspect you are the one with difficulty in the area of reading comprehension, ALL cultures have at some point sacrificed humans, it seems to come with the territory, many have fallen, many will yet fall. What is this Western Civ of which you speak? European? British? Mediterranean? Russian? Perhaps you are thinking farther back, Roman or Greek? Read some more books, talk to some veterans, or at least watch the history channel, there is no such thing as western civ, it is an illusion. Or rather, a collection of illusions, I think you need to grow up.
Get back to me when you can be civil, okay?
I was being quite civil, you have yet to answer my questions, this has become rather boring to me now, so be gone with you.
"You need to grow up" as a debating point is "civil"?
Okay.
Quote from: Ghost In The MachineQuote from: ainiQuote from: Ghost In The Machine
You didn't read my original position very carefully. I said if any culture ever got what it deserved, it was the Aztecs.
Western civilization is/was just as bad, it just never got what it deserves.
No, I read it, I suspect you are the one with difficulty in the area of reading comprehension, ALL cultures have at some point sacrificed humans, it seems to come with the territory, many have fallen, many will yet fall. What is this Western Civ of which you speak? European? British? Mediterranean? Russian? Perhaps you are thinking farther back, Roman or Greek? Read some more books, talk to some veterans, or at least watch the history channel, there is no such thing as western civ, it is an illusion. Or rather, a collection of illusions, I think you need to grow up.
Get back to me when you can be civil, okay?
Um, I am not sure if you know the identity behind the new Kallisti aini, but, if I were you I would play nice. She is being civil and has brought up several valid points.
Quote from: Eldora, Oracle of AlchemyQuote from: Ghost In The MachineQuote from: ainiQuote from: Ghost In The Machine
You didn't read my original position very carefully. I said if any culture ever got what it deserved, it was the Aztecs.
Western civilization is/was just as bad, it just never got what it deserves.
No, I read it, I suspect you are the one with difficulty in the area of reading comprehension, ALL cultures have at some point sacrificed humans, it seems to come with the territory, many have fallen, many will yet fall. What is this Western Civ of which you speak? European? British? Mediterranean? Russian? Perhaps you are thinking farther back, Roman or Greek? Read some more books, talk to some veterans, or at least watch the history channel, there is no such thing as western civ, it is an illusion. Or rather, a collection of illusions, I think you need to grow up.
Get back to me when you can be civil, okay?
Um, I am not sure if you know the identity behind the new Kallisti aini, but, if I were you I would play nice. She is being civil and has brought up several valid points.
No, I do not know who the current Kallisti Aini is, nor am I intimidated.
Please see my response just above yours.
My suspicions grow...
Quote from: LMNOMy suspicions grow...
Really? Mine shrink...
Quote from: LMNOMy suspicions grow...
Do tell.
Not telling. I might be wrong. And then I look (more) stupid.
Quote from: LMNONot telling. I might be wrong. And then I look (more) stupid.
That's what PMs are for. 8)
Indeed.
Quote from: Eldora, Oracle of Alchemy
Um, I am not sure if you know the identity behind the new Kallisti aini, but, if I were you I would play nice. She is being civil and has brought up several valid points.
If RAW and the Mgt. wanted everyone to play nice to them, would they really be using the nomen of the aini collective for that purpose?
Aztec plusses: an apparent shortage of hypocrisy. (I say 'apparent' because, having only received history as filtered through their destruction, I don't know what the leaders actually claimed. If the bit with the provacateurs upthread is accurate, that gets nullified.)
Aztec minuses: being at least as bloodyminded as the average human culture, and in some ways more so.
At the risk of over quoting:
QuoteWhat do I think of Western civilization? I think it would be a very good idea.
Mohandas Gandhi
QuoteIt really is a pity about the immune systems of the native peoples of the Americas. It would have been so much more interesting if more of them could have been exposed to the European diseases before the Europeans got to their shores. Much, much, more interesting.
Yes this was really my original point : IT would have very interesting if the Native Peoples had been able to repulse all colonization attemps and formed a sort of Turtle Island Federation or whatever.
Quote from: PopeLoUDICRUCEAt the risk of over quoting:
QuoteWhat do I think of Western civilization? I think it would be a very good idea.
Mohandas Gandhi
You made me laugh and that's all I care about, hehehe, western civ, someone should try it sometime. :shock: :lol:
Quote from: PopeLoUDICRUCEQuoteIt really is a pity about the immune systems of the native peoples of the Americas. It would have been so much more interesting if more of them could have been exposed to the European diseases before the Europeans got to their shores. Much, much, more interesting.
Yes this was really my original point : IT would have very interesting if the Native Peoples had been able to repulse all colonization attemps and formed a sort of Turtle Island Federation or whatever.
And instead of answering my questions, GitMo just told me to be civil. I wonder what he meant by that. :?
Quote from: snippet of long paragraph
Read some more books, talk to some veterans, or at least watch the history channel, there is no such thing as western civ, it is an illusion. Or rather, a collection of illusions, I think you need to grow up.
And from this all he saw was the grow up part, not that civilization is an illusion, not that there are many ways to get perspective on history, totally ignored the question about is there any culture that never praticed human sacrifice. Amazing, but proves nicely how people only see what they want. I am glad I could count on you Pope Lou to be the voice of reason.
Just a thought for everyone here; if we're going to have serious debates GODDESS FORBID! My opinion-and it is only opinion-is that any direct address to a persons intellectual capacities-barring pie~in~the~face~stupidity-or to the size of various parts of anatomy or vain insults and threats- merely detracts and DISTRACTS one from the issue of debate :P Pehaps, in the absence of Intellectual capacity to debate effectively some of us use this as a strategem?! :twisted:
:P Glad to be of service! BTW I agree with Rev. Flatewlint :wink:
http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/h/hu/human_sacrifice.htm
For those who do not click the links, here is a list, from the above page, of those whom have practiced human sacrifice at some point.
Chinese
Mongols
Mesoamericans
Celts
Cretans
Ancient Greeks
Phoenicians
Carthaginians
Ancient Romans
12 Tribes(The Old Testament has accounts)
Vikings
Africa(some of this has continued into modern times)
India(some of this has continued into modern times)[/list:u]
That is more what I had in mind dahling, thank you. It seems to be such a wide spread part of the human condition, that it has probably happened everywhere at some point in the past, and I was surprised, well, a little, to see that it continues into the present in some places.
Quote from: aini
Quote from: snippet of long paragraph
Read some more books, talk to some veterans, or at least watch the history channel, there is no such thing as western civ, it is an illusion. Or rather, a collection of illusions, I think you need to grow up.
And from this all he saw was the grow up part, not that civilization is an illusion, not that there are many ways to get perspective on history, totally ignored the question about is there any culture that never praticed human sacrifice. Amazing, but proves nicely how people only see what they want. I am glad I could count on you Pope Lou to be the voice of reason.
well, when you're trying to make a point to someone, tagging a line on the end about how they need to grow up is just about guaranteed to divert their attention away from the point you're trying ot make and on to your personal attack on them. People always look to defend themselves from attack before looking to engage in intelligent debate.
8)
Quote from: LMNOHuman sacrifice, slavery of opposing tribes, not much of an immune system....
All hisorically unverified opinions that have been continuously repeated since the Conquistadors' days....and you know if men repeat something often enough it becomes a strong belief.
Human sacrifice: the only records are from the writings of Spanish chroniclers. Note: the Aztecs/Mexica and the surrounding peoples had a ritualized style of warfare known as "the Flower Wars" in which men would test themselves against each other. But besides warriors, warfare among the Triple Alliance network (the area of Central Mexico) rarely broke out among civilians.
Slavery: The Mexica "slave" system was nothing comparable to what Europeans developed. It was more based on a system of ritualized tribute and hierarchy. But those in power, could not just lord it over their peoples. The Mexica were a people governed by rule of law.
Immune System: This is used to explain the massive Indigenous die offs that occured around the time of conquests. It is wrong however. Die offs among indigenous populations occured most often when native crops and living arrangements had been destroyed by Europeans. Starvation weakens the body's immune system.
If you use the Immune System argument you must also take into account the fact that over one third of all early European conquerors themselves died off. No one ever looks at that situation because it blows the whole "Indian Immunity Weakness" myth out of the water.
BTW- Ask me anything you want about Central American civilization I learned classical Nahuatl and still have a lot of the poetry in my head.
Quote from: ScribeYes, but the Aztecs raised it to proportions practically unheard of until modern times, in sacrafices anyway. I think it was roughly 1000 people a week at the height of their empire. They purposefully created dissent by use of spies as a reason to go into towns recently taken over and sacrafice the lot of them. Very nasty, very calculated.
A myth unsupported by any scientific study.
Quote from: Eldora, Oracle of Alchemyhttp://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/h/hu/human_sacrifice.htm
For those who do not click the links, here is a list, from the above page, of those whom have practiced human sacrifice at some point.
Chinese
Mongols
Mesoamericans
Celts
Cretans
Ancient Greeks
Phoenicians
Carthaginians
Ancient Romans
12 Tribes(The Old Testament has accounts)
Vikings
Africa(some of this has continued into modern times)
India(some of this has continued into modern times)[/list:u]
Chinese: Possibly but not verified.
Mongols: Only in warfare, but that's what war is.
Meso-Americans: In Mayan cases yes. But whether or not its 'sacrifice' or execution remains unknown. The anthopologists seem blinded by the prejudices and expectations of their own forebears.
Celts: Perhaps, but not within memory of any time when they identified themselves as Celts. They did practice endemic warfare, however.
As for the others who can say.
What I am saying is that human sacrifice is one of those bugbears that is used to paint someone else's culture as shit. But all cultures are infected with the virus of warfare and cruelty to more or less degrees. No one deserves to be enslaved, converted, tortured, starved, and eradicated. You all think what Hitler did was wrong, but yet you don't see that what the Spaniards did to the peoples of Central Mexico was wrong? (Hitler used the old Christian 'blood libel' too....you know the one that says that Jews sacrifice babies. What's the difference between Hitler's using the blood-libel and the Spaniards' use of it?)
Besides, it really irks me hearing all of you people go one about the "Aztecs" and shit as if you know, when all you are doing is repeating the poorly thought out myths of those White and Hispanic Americans who believe themselves to be of the "master race"....oh wait...it's not polite to call it that now....we'll just call it "Global Society" now because the Hannibal Lector Civilization called Western Europe is now devouring the globe.
we know exactly as much as you do.
which is to say, we can only know what we've pieced together by researching the accounts of others, since not a damn one of us was actually around at the time of the Aztec empire. Who's to say which version is correct?
8)
Quote from: Se?±or Misteriosowe know exactly as much as you do.
which is to say, we can only know what we've pieced together by researching the accounts of others, since not a damn one of us was actually around at the time of the Aztec empire. Who's to say which version is correct?
8)
Also incorrect. The Aztecs, one must remember are still around today. There are over two million of them living in Central Mexico and speaking a modern version of the old Nahuatl language (which was incidentally the lingua franca of most of Mexico up until the Revolution of 1910). The Aztecs were literate and left records of their account of the conquest. A published study that is accessible to the public is the title "Broken Spears," look it up. You may also wish to peruse, if you can, the studies of Classical Nahuatl culture published by the University of Mexico.
As for sacrifice, there are some key things to look for in remains of ancient structures to determine if it was a probability. As for the surviving ruins of Aztec and other Central Mexican people, nothing has been found that suggests probability.
In terms of religion, the White Man's whole "Indian Savage Sacrificer" myth has been discredited for at least the past thirty years. With the Nahuatl-speaking Aztecs and other peoples, the highest form of ritual devotion was the recitation of poetry, believe it or not. Some of the more religious minded of them would do penance such as pricking their fingers or tongues....but that is a common practice worldwide.
Quotewe know exactly as much as you do.
which is to say, we can only know what we've pieced together by researching the accounts of others, since not a damn one of us was actually around at the time of the Aztec empire. Who's to say which version is correct?
Actually, here, it appears I know a bit more. But anyone can learn to unthink the myths of the Conquering Race and start to delve into what the actual indigenous peoples themselves think about all this bullshit.
The only weakness in the immune system that I know about is a lack of exposure. The Natives got sick more often and got sicker for the same reason boots boy got sicker than me. I was exposed to some of the nasitest viruses around when my son was an infant and a toddler. Roughly the first year or two of his life. For a while there he, we actually, would just barely get over one virus before the next one hit. This included the RSV virus, which is nasty and can be deadly for infants which was when he got it.
And thanks for trying to set the record straight, Hugh. They are listening to you about as well as they listened to me. This was all the stuff I was looking for and had not been able to find. I have lots of stuff on other groups, but not the Aztecs or other groups from that region. And Thanks again.
I wasn't discounting Hugh's apparently considerable knowledge of the subject, I was just making the point that it still comes from records and accounts of people who are long gone. And I didn't say there were no Aztecs left, I said that no one alive today was around during the time of the Aztec Empire. basically, it's all hearsay, though I am inclined to believe that Hugh has studied it to a greater depth than the rest of us. And I will check out that book, Hugh.
Thank you Hugh, I do hope that GitMo character reads your words of wisdom, you may not be an expert, but compared to the rest of us, you are.
Quote from: Se?±or MisteriosoI wasn't discounting Hugh's apparently considerable knowledge of the subject, I was just making the point that it still comes from records and accounts of people who are long gone. And I didn't say there were no Aztecs left, I said that no one alive today was around during the time of the Aztec Empire. basically, it's all hearsay, though I am inclined to believe that Hugh has studied it to a greater depth than the rest of us. And I will check out that book, Hugh.
You are correct. None of us were around. But since all we have to go on are records left by people some five hundred years ago, who should we trust? I tend to err on the side of the people who are being conquered since the conquerors tend to have agendas. And the old blood libel has been used for millenia. The romans used it against the Celts. The Catholics used it against the Jews and the Muslims. The Muslims used it against the Jews and Christians (and the African religious groups).
There is a considerable library of written accounts by Nahuatl-speaking peoples (many of the Mexica, some of the from other ethnic groups) both in the Native glyph writing systems and in the roman alphabet that the Mexica learned from the Spaniards. I myself have a lot of photocopies of some of the stuff from back when I studied it...about 12 years ago.
The Aztecs were incredibly refined in terms of urban civilizations are concerned, at least according to the accounts. Imagine a society in which the highest act of devotion to the sacred is poetry. They also had in impressively complex cosmology....they also had a more highly advanced medical system...nothing compared to Western medicine of today, but for five hundred years ago, it was on par with China, if not more advanced.
Also, a lot of keen insights into Classical Nahuatl society have been made by Nahuatl-speaking scientists of today. Many of them in the field of archaeology. It seems that the cosmology has survived intact among today's Nahuatl speakers...and the cosmology is central to understanding the native approaches to everything from architecture to literature.
So while it is true that all we have are accounts. It is not completely true.
Incidentally if any of you are interested in the religious/spiritual conceptions of the Aztecs, I can give you the site url and email of someone who practices it in this day and age.
atzintli imacaxtli tetahua!
imixayo iuhquima quiahuitl toyaoyouh tlathuiznequi!
8)
Gesundheit!
8)
:shock: Wow, Hugh! I am truly impressed! I am a big language freak but I never tried Nahuatl! Actually, I do well to keep up on German, Spanish,Cherokee and Tibetan. What does Nahuatl sound like anyway?
Quote from: Se?±or Misteriosoatzintli imacaxtli tetahua!
imixayo iuhquima quiahuitl toyaoyouh tlathuiznequi!
8)
um, okay. It's badly formed Nahuatl. Either you made it up from a codex list. Or it came from the seventeen hundreds. Or you snatched it somehow from a substandard Nahua poet from about two hundred or so years ago, but heres my translation (keep in mind that I haven't studied Nahuatl in a long time):
(My) Revered Fathers, please drink
Their tears! (a trifle considered) like falling rain
in the battle dawning like the morning sure to come.
<note> A lot is left out from straight translation which I tried to re-enter.
Nahuatl is extremely precise and subtle. Much more so than Latin or Greek.</note>
i was doign some google research(lol) and onyl found one sight that disagreed withthe sacrifce thing, some of the ones that said they were fiercely sacrficial even had sources. the one that was anti sacrifice said evidecne that suggests sacrifice was in fact meangni open heart surgery, particularly aztec art depict their dark sun god huilztlauwhatever feasteing upon the blood and still beating hearts of the human tribute from conquered vassal states, which are obviously misconstrued and actualyl depict their fanged calwed god cleansing the freely flowing blood as it runs down teh steps of the mighty pyramids.
lol :P
googled aztec + sacrifice.
on a side note, in utopia my province name was once Tlacaxipehualiztli which translates to 'Slaughtering of dogs'
I doubt the aztecs were doing open heart surgery. What happened there, according to Nahuatl records is certain executions of criminals. (Nahuatl law didn't provide for capital criminals to survive for much long after their conviction.)
A lot of sources will say that the Aztecs did human sacrifice, but as a good researcher you must track down EVERY source until you reach the end and then draw your conclusions.
In the case of the Aztecs....the Spanish were worse and the English run a close second, in terms of human torture and cruelty.
i dont' disagree that the europeans in general were awful people, when it came to toruring each toehr and what not.
but i think it takes a littel bit away from the aztec cutlure, to say that they weren't blood thirsty faatics who's elite warriors palyed sprot witht he heads of those fallen during th egame in which the winners were those who still stood and willingly gave themselves and their nectars so the sun might rise tomorrow.
but you oughta knwo i'm an awful researcher, and it shoudl be noted that all the above is based on what i elarned in highschool and a couple o f aztec fans(of soem sort of middle mexican heritage).
Quote from: Tlacaxipehualiztlii dont' disagree that the europeans in general were awful people, when it came to toruring each toehr and what not.
but i think it takes a littel bit away from the aztec cutlure, to say that they weren't blood thirsty faatics who's elite warriors palyed sprot witht he heads of those fallen during th egame in which the winners were those who still stood and willingly gave themselves and their nectars so the sun might rise tomorrow.
but you oughta knwo i'm an awful researcher, and it shoudl be noted that all the above is based on what i elarned in highschool and a couple o f aztec fans(of soem sort of middle mexican heritage).
Heh. Now all of the preceding discussion and argument has been about Aztec society. I wasn't talking about the sports. That raises the bar entirely. :twisted:
Quote from: Irreverend Hugh, KSCQuote from: Tlacaxipehualiztlii dont' disagree that the europeans in general were awful people, when it came to toruring each toehr and what not.
but i think it takes a littel bit away from the aztec cutlure, to say that they weren't blood thirsty faatics who's elite warriors palyed sprot witht he heads of those fallen during th egame in which the winners were those who still stood and willingly gave themselves and their nectars so the sun might rise tomorrow.
but you oughta knwo i'm an awful researcher, and it shoudl be noted that all the above is based on what i elarned in highschool and a couple o f aztec fans(of soem sort of middle mexican heritage).
Heh. Now all of the preceding discussion and argument has been about Aztec society. I wasn't talking about the sports. That raises the bar entirely. :twisted:
alto of the websites also said a bunc h of junk about waging cosntant warfare for the sacred purpose of capturing enemy soldiers solely for the prupose of sacrifice. one site(googled aztec + slaughter i beleive) comapred it with ww1. lol.
Quote from: TlacaxipehualiztliQuote from: Irreverend Hugh, KSCQuote from: Tlacaxipehualiztlii dont' disagree that the europeans in general were awful people, when it came to toruring each toehr and what not.
but i think it takes a littel bit away from the aztec cutlure, to say that they weren't blood thirsty faatics who's elite warriors palyed sprot witht he heads of those fallen during th egame in which the winners were those who still stood and willingly gave themselves and their nectars so the sun might rise tomorrow.
but you oughta knwo i'm an awful researcher, and it shoudl be noted that all the above is based on what i elarned in highschool and a couple o f aztec fans(of soem sort of middle mexican heritage).
Heh. Now all of the preceding discussion and argument has been about Aztec society. I wasn't talking about the sports. That raises the bar entirely. :twisted:
alto of the websites also said a bunc h of junk about waging cosntant warfare for the sacred purpose of capturing enemy soldiers solely for the prupose of sacrifice. one site(googled aztec + slaughter i beleive) comapred it with ww1. lol.
That was refering to the War of Flowers. What do any of you Wasichu know about that. Just forget about it. It is too complex for you whiteys. Go back to your endless jabs about french and germans or communists and capitalists or civilians against terrorists ....(now do you understand the Aztec view of war?).
Quote from: Irreverend Hugh, KSCQuote from: Se?±or Misteriosoatzintli imacaxtli tetahua!
imixayo iuhquima quiahuitl toyaoyouh tlathuiznequi!
8)
um, okay. It's badly formed Nahuatl. Either you made it up from a codex list. Or it came from the seventeen hundreds. Or you snatched it somehow from a substandard Nahua poet from about two hundred or so years ago, but heres my translation (keep in mind that I haven't studied Nahuatl in a long time):
(My) Revered Fathers, please drink
Their tears! (a trifle considered) like falling rain
in the battle dawning like the morning sure to come.
<note> A lot is left out from straight translation which I tried to re-enter.
Nahuatl is extremely precise and subtle. Much more so than Latin or Greek.</note>
yeah, I got the vocab but not the conjugation and how to stick phrases together...hard to do that without hearing someone speak it..but your translation is pretty much dead-on in the words, but apparently I mixed up the meaning...
Drink to our revered fathers
their tears are as falling rain
to feed the battle we fight for tomorrow.
or something like that. I'll work on it.
8)
Quote from: Irreverend Hugh, KSC[quote="blah blah blah blah OMFGWTF BBQQQ!!!etc..ring enemy soldiers solely for the prupose of sacrifice. one site(googled aztec + slaughter i beleive) comapred it with ww1. lol.
That was refering to the War of Flowers. What do any of you Wasichu know about that. Just forget about it. It is too complex for you whiteys. Go back to your endless jabs about french and germans or communists and capitalists or civilians against terrorists ....(now do you understand the Aztec view of war?).[/quote]
nothing i hadn't heard before, tho your skin is pinker than mine hugh.
OMG ze Germanz zarr coming!!!!! run like ze french!!!!
Quote
That was refering to the War of Flowers. What do any of you Wasichu know about that. Just forget about it. It is too complex for you whiteys. Go back to your endless jabs about french and germans or communists and capitalists or civilians against terrorists ....(now do you understand the Aztec view of war?).
I'll drink to that! We have to realize that we are ALL conjecturing about paradigms that we cannot attest to nor experience EVEN on psychoactive drugs! For, how do we know where our own creativity ends and factual report begins? As well, consider that ANYTHING an Anthropottygist~er anthropologist says about cultures A. B. or C. is passed through the filter of their own cultural aggregation of experiences. Very often we learn more about the Anthropottygist~damn! anthropologist than the culture they are conjecturing about.
We can experience everything on psychoactive drugs.
Quote from: Irreverend Hugh, KSCWe can experience everything on psychoactive drugs.
..Everything, that is, except sobriety.
au contraire.
I've definitely taken enough acid to lift myself to the highest pinnacle of sobriety.
8)
Quote from: Se?±or Misteriosoau contraire.
I've definitely taken enough acid to lift myself to the highest pinnacle of sobriety.
8)
Maybe you could give some pointers to Ghost. :lol:
much as I love to be helpful, that's the sort of thing you can only figure out for yourself.
8)
QuoteWe can experience everything on psychoactive drugs.
Yes but, as you know from your Tibetan studies, we are aggregates of our experiences thus, EVEN on psychoactive drugs there are cultural filters coloring What we experience and How we experience it.
Quote from: PopeLoUDICRUCEQuoteWe can experience everything on psychoactive drugs.
Yes but, as you know from your Tibetan studies, we are aggregates of our experiences thus, EVEN on psychoactive drugs there are cultural filters coloring What we experience and How we experience it.
Heh. Those crazy Tibetans. Gotta love 'em. Taught me much about how to see through the bullshit, even today's trendy "the world is fucked" thinking bullshit....even the "there is no meanining to life" bullshit. I have never met a Tibetan to this day who wasn't happy....they lost a country, have their religion mistunderstood, have to treat most Westerners as the wealthy retards that they are....and yet, they are happy. dharma does good things for the soul and Tibetans have their soul intact, despite all the other shit. Too bad people from America who bitch and whine about how shitty people and the world is don't count their fucking blessings.
Quote from: Irreverend Hugh, KSCQuote from: PopeLoUDICRUCEQuoteWe can experience everything on psychoactive drugs.
Yes but, as you know from your Tibetan studies, we are aggregates of our experiences thus, EVEN on psychoactive drugs there are cultural filters coloring What we experience and How we experience it.
Heh. Those crazy Tibetans. Gotta love 'em. Taught me much about how to see through the bullshit, even today's trendy "the world is fucked" thinking bullshit....even the "there is no meanining to life" bullshit. I have never met a Tibetan to this day who wasn't happy....they lost a country, have their religion mistunderstood, have to treat most Westerners as the wealthy retards that they are....and yet, they are happy. dharma does good things for the soul and Tibetans have their soul intact, despite all the other shit. Too bad people from America who bitch and whine about how shitty people and the world is don't count their fucking blessings.
But did the tibetians teach you to throw a single grain of salt hard enough to penetrate a man's skull at 50 paces?
Quote from: Ghost In The MachineQuote from: Irreverend Hugh, KSCQuote from: PopeLoUDICRUCEQuoteWe can experience everything on psychoactive drugs.
Yes but, as you know from your Tibetan studies, we are aggregates of our experiences thus, EVEN on psychoactive drugs there are cultural filters coloring What we experience and How we experience it.
Heh. Those crazy Tibetans. Gotta love 'em. Taught me much about how to see through the bullshit, even today's trendy "the world is fucked" thinking bullshit....even the "there is no meanining to life" bullshit. I have never met a Tibetan to this day who wasn't happy....they lost a country, have their religion mistunderstood, have to treat most Westerners as the wealthy retards that they are....and yet, they are happy. dharma does good things for the soul and Tibetans have their soul intact, despite all the other shit. Too bad people from America who bitch and whine about how shitty people and the world is don't count their fucking blessings.
But did the tibetians teach you to throw a single grain of salt hard enough to penetrate a man's skull at 50 paces?
you mean they don't use the guns the llamas sell for that?
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Se?±or Misteriosoau contraire.
I've definitely taken enough acid to lift myself to the highest pinnacle of sobriety.
8)
Maybe you could give some pointers to Ghost. :lol:
Jesus. Post ONCE while fucked up, and Carrie Nation is all over your ass. :lol:
funny...I've posted whilst fucked out of my skull probably about 25% of the time and no one's ever stepped on my balls about it...
or if they have, I never noticed.
8)
We can't step on what we can't see, my dear...
you can't see them because they're all around you.
8)
What do you do with an elephant with three balls?
Walk him and pitch to the rhino!
Quote from: Se?±or Misteriosofunny...I've posted whilst fucked out of my skull probably about 25% of the time and no one's ever stepped on my balls about it...
or if they have, I never noticed.
8)
Your typing skills don't degrade as badly as some. And for some, their typing skills are so bad, it's hard to tell if they're fucked up or not :shock: :D
Quote from: Se?±or Misteriosoyou can't see them because they're all around you.
8)
THE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE YOUR SKULL!
Quote from: -->Eris<--What do you do with an elephant with three balls?
Walk him and pitch to the rhino!
:lol:
I've never heard that one.
I thought I'd heard them all.
Quote from: Ghost In The MachineQuote from: Se?±or Misteriosoyou can't see them because they're all around you.
8)
THE BALLS ARE COMING INSIDE YOUR SKULL!
Fixed that to preserve context.
Quote from: LMNOQuote from: Ghost In The MachineQuote from: Se?±or Misteriosoyou can't see them because they're all around you.
8)
THE BALLS ARE COMING INSIDE YOUR SKULL!
Fixed that to preserve context.
I could have gone all day, without that mental image. :evil:
Quote from: Ghost In The MachineQuote from: Irreverend Hugh, KSCQuote from: PopeLoUDICRUCEQuoteWe can experience everything on psychoactive drugs.
Yes but, as you know from your Tibetan studies, we are aggregates of our experiences thus, EVEN on psychoactive drugs there are cultural filters coloring What we experience and How we experience it.
Heh. Those crazy Tibetans. Gotta love 'em. Taught me much about how to see through the bullshit, even today's trendy "the world is fucked" thinking bullshit....even the "there is no meanining to life" bullshit. I have never met a Tibetan to this day who wasn't happy....they lost a country, have their religion mistunderstood, have to treat most Westerners as the wealthy retards that they are....and yet, they are happy. dharma does good things for the soul and Tibetans have their soul intact, despite all the other shit. Too bad people from America who bitch and whine about how shitty people and the world is don't count their fucking blessings.
But did the tibetians teach you to throw a single grain of salt hard enough to penetrate a man's skull at 50 paces?
Of course. That goes without saying.