I just finished reading the book and was thinking about the section in the appendix where they mention you will understand about all you need to about mysticism if you understand the passage about Hagbard abdicating. Here is the section of the text:
..."As for the rest of you - who can tell me, without uttering a word, the fallacy of the Illuminati?"
A young girl - she was no more than fifteen, George guessed, and the youngest member of the crew; he had heard she was a runaway from a fabulously rich Italian family in Rom - slowly raised her hand and clenched her fist.
Hagbard turned on her furiously. "How many times must I tell you people: no faking! You got that out of some cheap book on Zen that neither the author or you understood a damned word of. I hate to be dictatorial, but phony mysticism is the one thing Discordianism can't survive. You're on sh*twork, in the kitchen, for a week, you wise-ass brat."
The girl remained immobile, in the same position, fist raised, and only slowly did George read the slight smile that curled her mouth. Then he started to smile himself.
I'm curious what people think they mean by that.
My first thoughts were that she was showing that the fallacy of the illuminati is that all control and authority is an illusion unless the submissive remain submissive.
I also wondered if making a fist was somehow supposed to be the sound of one hand clapping mentioned elsewhere in the book.
My only other thought was that it was a play on words instead of fallacy they meant phallic since according to their thoughts all magical or mystical symbols refer to one of a "few" special kinds of human sacrifice, i.e. penetrative sex. They mention several examples like Cupid shooting an arrow in a pulsing heart, the sacred heart, etc.
I'm just curious what other people who read the book thought.
Quote from: Technocracy
I'm just curious what other people who read the book thought.
I thought RAW was trying to sound mystical by being obtuse.
He always was a 2-bit hack.
I'm with Roger, I think RAW was going for obscurity - and I'm sure most of the esoteria was indeed very obscure when the book was new, in the pre-Internet stone age. I don't think he ever could have anticipated Google spoiling his jokes. (Not to mention, those appedices were even more full of shit than the rest of the book, since only the appendices actually claimed to be true.)
That said, I've always thought this scene was a reference to a case from the "Gateless Gate" (Mumonkan) of Zen:
Quote from: Wu-men Hui-hai
CASE 11. JOSHU'S HERMIT
Joshu went to a hermit's and asked, "What's up? What's up?"(="Have you any Zen?") The hermit lifted up his fist. Joshu said, "The water is too shallow to anchor here," and went away. Joshu visited the hermit once again a few days later and said, "What's up? What's up?" The hermit raised his fist again. Then Joshu said, "Well given, well taken, well killed, well saved." And he bowed to the hermit.
Mumon's Comment:
The raised fist was the same both times. Why was one accepted, the other rejected? Just say, where is the confusion between the two?
If you can answer this by a word of true comprehension, then you realize that Joshu's tongue has no bone and that he can absolutely freely use it. Even though this is so, the hermit might have seen through Joshu both times. If you wonder whether the first hermit be superior (or inferior) to the second, then you have no one eye.
His eye is a meteor,
Zen's movement is like lightning.
The sword that kills the man,
is the sword that saves the man.
Don't ask me what it means, though, unless it's telling us that all such mysticism is about knowing the in-jokes.
Yes, this is the same Joshu that Kerry made to say "From now on do not hit people by mistake!" in his intro to PD.
Well I always got the impression that the driving point behind all of the book's jokes, half truths, full truths and no truths was:
You are free to think for yourself so why don't you?
I found this article RAW wrote about calandars that is somewhat a sequel to the bit about calanders in the appendix.
Calander (http://www.kelsung.com/calendar/RAW.htm)
I've thought about picking up Schrodinger's Cat Trilogy since reading the Illuminatus! book felt like I remember college afternoons feeling like, hazy and insightful with lots of time to think :shock:
That's "calendar" to you, missy.
And I wouldn't take anything by RAW too seriously, if I were you.
Quote from: TechnocracyWell I always got the impression that the driving point behind all of the book's jokes, half truths, full truths and no truths was:
"Somebody help me! I can't figure out how to end this book!"
Fixed!@
Quote from: ataraxia(Not to mention, those appedices were even more full of shit than the rest of the book, since only the appendices actually claimed to be true.)
I shamelessy rip off the ideas from the OM appendix for IRL use.
Other than that, yeah.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: ataraxia(Not to mention, those appedices were even more full of shit than the rest of the book, since only the appendices actually claimed to be true.)
I shamelessy rip off the ideas from the OM appendix for IRL use.
Other than that, yeah.
That's exceptionally consistent. What is more useful to fertilize cabbage patches than bullshit?
Quote from: ataraxiaQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: ataraxia(Not to mention, those appedices were even more full of shit than the rest of the book, since only the appendices actually claimed to be true.)
I shamelessy rip off the ideas from the OM appendix for IRL use.
Other than that, yeah.
That's exceptionally consistent. What is more useful to fertilize cabbage patches than bullshit?
I'm not out to fertilize them.
I agree with the MEANS of OM, but not the ENDS, so to speak.
TGRR,
Just plain likes tormenting people.
Quote from: TechnocracyI just finished reading the book and was thinking...
You lost me here, you finished the book, thinking? My brain went numb for the whole time I was reading it and a few days after that :lol:
Quote from: Eldora, Oracle of AlchemyQuote from: TechnocracyI just finished reading the book and was thinking...
You lost me here, you finished the book, thinking? My brain went numb for the whole time I was reading it and a few days after that :lol:
I rarely finish RAW books.
He always loses it in the last 2 chapters, and winds up imitating James Joyce. Who sucks my ass.
QuoteTGRR,
Just plain likes tormenting people.
RAH!!
Quote from: Rabid Badger of GodQuoteTGRR,
Just plain likes tormenting people.
RAH!!
That's why they...well, they DON'T pay me, but they should.
I want to get payed for being a sadistic bitch. I guess I should see if the DMV is hiring.
Quote from: Rabid Badger of GodI want to get payed for being a sadistic bitch. I guess I should see if the DMV is hiring.
Okay, but you'll have to have your soul removed.
It's a
rule.
Another fine option is collections. Or the complaints department at Microsoft.
Calander, Calender
I prefer the eskimo spelling thank you very much! :o
I was basically trying to see if I had missed another inside joke by taking the section too literally. I enjoyed the book, like Flatland/Sphereland and the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, it was a good mental stretch in a non-normal direction. I did do several google searches while reading it because I knew I was missing some humor and satire but wasn't sure how since alot of the references were before my time.
I guess that's a risk factor for working for the Gummint.
Hmmm...I need some job so vital that I can torture people without fear of repurcussion.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Eldora, Oracle of AlchemyQuote from: TechnocracyI just finished reading the book and was thinking...
You lost me here, you finished the book, thinking? My brain went numb for the whole time I was reading it and a few days after that :lol:
I rarely finish RAW books.
He always loses it in the last 2 chapters, and winds up imitating James Joyce. Who sucks my ass.
Worst endings of any books I have ever read, and I have read this
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0916291456.01._AA400_SCLZZZZZZZ_.gif)
Which ends thusly
(http://www.kanemiller.com/corp/graphics/aboutkmpgpoops.gif)
Quote from: Rabid Badger of GodI guess that's a risk factor for working for the Gummint.
Hmmm...I need some job so vital that I can torture people without fear of repurcussion.
Homeland Security?
Information Operator?
Dental Assistant?
Fox News Anchor?
Clown?
Quote from: TechnocracyCalander, Calender
Calendar. Repeat after me. Calendar.
Quote from: Eldora, Oracle of AlchemyQuote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Eldora, Oracle of AlchemyQuote from: TechnocracyI just finished reading the book and was thinking...
You lost me here, you finished the book, thinking? My brain went numb for the whole time I was reading it and a few days after that :lol:
I rarely finish RAW books.
He always loses it in the last 2 chapters, and winds up imitating James Joyce. Who sucks my ass.
Worst endings of any books I have ever read, and I have read this
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0916291456.01._AA400_SCLZZZZZZZ_.gif)
Which ends thusly
(http://www.kanemiller.com/corp/graphics/aboutkmpgpoops.gif)
I am SO stealing that image.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger
Homeland Security?
Information Operator?
Dental Assistant?
Fox News Anchor?
Clown?
1. My soul, remember?
2. Good one.
3. Another good one.
4. I don't look enough like The Clone(tm).
5. ...Nah, I like my dignity too much.
Quote from: The Good Reverend Roger
I am SO stealing that image.
If only you could steal it from my brain :lol:
Quote from: Rabid Badger of GodQuote from: The Good Reverend Roger
Homeland Security?
Information Operator?
Dental Assistant?
Fox News Anchor?
Clown?
1. My soul, remember?
2. Good one.
3. Another good one.
4. I don't look enough like The Clone(tm).
5. ...Nah, I like my dignity too much.
4. 2 words: Blow dryer.
I could just work in the post office. Then people would fear the statistical possibility of my pulling a gun out and hosing the place down.
Quote from: Rabid Badger of GodI could just work in the post office. Then people would fear the statistical possibility of my pulling a gun out and hosing the place down.
And you could make people go to the end of the line.
Oops...that's the DMV, again.
Quote from: TechnocracyI just finished reading the book and was thinking about the section in the appendix where they mention you will understand about all you need to about mysticism if you understand the passage about Hagbard abdicating. Here is the section of the text:
..."As for the rest of you - who can tell me, without uttering a word, the fallacy of the Illuminati?"
A young girl - she was no more than fifteen, George guessed, and the youngest member of the crew; he had heard she was a runaway from a fabulously rich Italian family in Rom - slowly raised her hand and clenched her fist.
Hagbard turned on her furiously. "How many times must I tell you people: no faking! You got that out of some cheap book on Zen that neither the author or you understood a damned word of. I hate to be dictatorial, but phony mysticism is the one thing Discordianism can't survive. You're on sh*twork, in the kitchen, for a week, you wise-ass brat."
The girl remained immobile, in the same position, fist raised, and only slowly did George read the slight smile that curled her mouth. Then he started to smile himself.
I'm curious what people think they mean by that.
My first thoughts were that she was showing that the fallacy of the illuminati is that all control and authority is an illusion unless the submissive remain submissive.
I also wondered if making a fist was somehow supposed to be the sound of one hand clapping mentioned elsewhere in the book.
My only other thought was that it was a play on words instead of fallacy they meant phallic since according to their thoughts all magical or mystical symbols refer to one of a "few" special kinds of human sacrifice, i.e. penetrative sex. They mention several examples like Cupid shooting an arrow in a pulsing heart, the sacred heart, etc.
I'm just curious what other people who read the book thought.
the answer is obvious, true, and complete bullshit.
it's also the saem reason i say war when you say peace, tho not to be automatically contrary...
but that's too many clues right there. ok one more, when hagbard is explaining it to george, and he quotes dante's paradise.
im re-reading illuminatus! for the 6th and one half time. the ending of the plot suffers greatly,and i'm ripping it off slightly(tho not directly, it's been done many, many times) in my last two chapters. really i jsu tneed reading material for the crapper, and wot book 11 isn't out till next month.
Quote from: Horab Fibslager
but that's too many clues right there. ok one more, when hagbard is explaining it to george, and he quotes dante's paradise.
You wouldn't happen to remember the quote or what rough page it was on in RAW's book would ya? Was the quote labeled in the book as being from Dante or was it just soemthing Hagberd said that you recognized from Dante? I've only read Dante's work once and that was WAY back in high school so I'm pretty fuzzy on it.
i actually forget, for the most part, basically yhe quote sas soemthignto the effect of , i am headed of you in understanding"(but there's mroe to it than that), where hagbard uses it to say she is ahead of him in understanding. hagbard says the italian to mis portinari, but explaisn what he means to george later.
i somehow got through all three books in illuminatus,
except for the last twenty pages or so. i couldn't take it.
all i could think was "End the fucking book already"
but he kept going on, so i ended the book prematurely.
i really liked this book, overall, but i would recommend schrodinger's cat
far more, for just "in general reading" as well as "trippy reading"
i'm not sure what "trippy reading" is supposed to mean.
one of the things i like/hate about RAW is he loves the details,
but he loves them so much that sometimes he'll include the
details(s) without saying "this is a a detail you should pay attention to."
it's always subsequent.
that scene has a bunch of those type details. the crack of a smile is
acknowledging the funny nature of things. the fist symbol is strength
as well...and...and.....oh fuck it, it's way too lame.
The thing about that scene is that he could have depicted any action, and kept the dialogue the same, and it would have meant the same thing.
It's one of those open-ended, self-interpretation things.
ie: RAW was being a lazy bugger/fraud.
True, but that doesn't mean he didn't have one or two good ideas.
And isn't being a lazy bugger/fraud similar to obtaining SLACK?
Depends. If he is being a fraud to me, then no. Other people are fine however.
But since you know he's a fraud, then he can't defraud you.
True. Unless I think he's a fraud only sometimes, in which case it gets tricky.
But tricky can be fun.
And sometimes, it just makes you want to haul them into a room and tell them to knock it off. But only sometimes. 8)
The only part of the end of Illuminatus that bothered me was the acid trip of Mary Lou . . . it was monotonous. But we should keep in mind that RAW wasn't the only authour of Illuminatus.
But, the ending of Illuminatus makes more sense than the end of Schrodinger's Cat.
Quote from: Baron von HooplaThe only part of the end of Illuminatus that bothered me was the acid trip of Mary Lou . . . it was monotonous. But we should keep in mind that RAW wasn't the only authour of Illuminatus.
But, the ending of Illuminatus makes more sense than the end of Schrodinger's Cat.
No. That acid trip is his fault. He basically puts shit in like that in everyone of his books, except for his "The Earth Will Tremble" series which is set in the late 1700's and is fairly straightforward.
Quote from: Irreverend Hugh, KSCNo. That acid trip is his fault. He basically puts shit in like that in everyone of his books, except for his "The Earth Will Tremble" series which is set in the late 1700's and is fairly straightforward.
Of that series I've only read The Widow's Son, which was pretty good. The ending doesn't really tie it up, but it's not as all over the map as usual.
Quote from: Horab Fibslageri actually forget, for the most part, basically yhe quote sas soemthignto the effect of , i am headed of you in understanding"(but there's mroe to it than that), where hagbard uses it to say she is ahead of him in understanding. hagbard says the italian to mis portinari, but explaisn what he means to george later.
I guess you're referring to this part:
Quote
George fiddled with his own steak for a minute, then tried another approach. "What was that Italian phrase you used, just before you gave your ring to Miss Portinari?"
"I couldn't think of anything else to say," Hagbard explained, embarrassed. "So, as usual with me, I got arty and pretentious. Dante addresses his readers, in the First Canto of the Paradiso, 'O voi che siete in pic-cloletta barca' roughly, Oh, you who are sailing in a very small boat astern of me. He meant that the readers, not having had the Vision, couldn't really understand his words. I turned it around, 'O oi che siete in piccioletta barca,' admitting I was behind her in understanding. I should get the Ezra Pound Award for hiding emotion in tangled erudition. That's why I'm glad to give up the guru gig. I never was much better than second-rate at it."
"Well, I'm still way astern of you. . ." George began.
Quote from: LMNOTrue, but that doesn't mean he didn't have one or two good ideas.
And isn't being a lazy bugger/fraud similar to obtaining SLACK?
1. Troof. He had a lot of good ideas. He's just a sucky writer, and his good ideas get lost in the type of bullshit shown in the original post.
2. Not when I waste 5 hours reading a book, only to have the end turn into gibberish.
if you think about it, isn't the natural end of most things gibberish anyway?
thinking of senile people...
Quote from: Prater Festwoif you think about it, isn't the natural end of most things gibberish anyway?
thinking of senile people...
1. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
2. On the other hand, they meet new people everyday...
soemone mentioned that drak is all shea, and simon moon is all raw, btu i'm pretty sure drake makes an appearance under otehr anems in alot of other raw owrks, specidifally in shrodinger's cat as coglistro the great(tho possibly soem folsk may say this is hagbard celine's permutation, i dsagree, as it much mroe resembles drake and his power drive/mommy issues)
alos shridinger's cat would've been alot better if there wasn't so much damn sex in teh book. it's fuckin ridicurous.
Quote from: Horab Fibslager
alos shridinger's cat would've been alot better if there wasn't so much damn sex in teh book. it's fuckin ridicurous.
Point. That almost wrecked the book.
Turned it from Lenny Bruce to Heavy Metal (the mag).
yeah i coudln;t figure out where he was going on witht hat. it was highyl enjoyabel when i was 13 on my first read through, tho even then i didn't find the point. somethign abotu fucking gorillaz and being transgendred in order to enter teh kingdom of heaven.
too much cocaine and genesis p. orridge i think.(orridge being oen of the biggest fucking tools and discreditors of the so called counter culture in it's entire existence)
Quote from: Horab Fibslageryeah i coudln;t figure out where he was going on witht hat. it was highyl enjoyabel when i was 13 on my first read through, tho even then i didn't find the point. somethign abotu fucking gorillaz and being transgendred in order to enter teh kingdom of heaven.
too much cocaine and genesis p. orridge i think.(orridge being oen of the biggest fucking tools and discreditors of the so called counter culture in it's entire existence)
Meh. More attempts at mysticism, this time via alchemy (arguably the MOST ludicrous of the mahdgjickque variants).
Also a good way to keep the attention of a buncha adolescent males.
...gotta start the mind warping when they're young.
Oh, and there is a plus side to alchemy: New sexual positions. But not for enlightenment, for fun.
I agree that the ending to Illuminatus wasn't very good. But then I think there's a bit too much emphasis on endings in literature (and movies). What happened to "the journey is and end in itself"? Plus, it sorta gives you the warm feeling that maybe you've just been put through a very long shaggy dog joke with no punch line :D
Not defending it though, they probably just couldn't come up with anything better and I don't think it was so bad as to seem intentionally so. But I don't think it ruined the book at all.
Quote from: nurbldoffI agree that the ending to Illuminatus wasn't very good. But then I think there's a bit too much emphasis on endings in literature (and movies).
What happened to "the journey is and end in itself"?
1. RUBBISH! When I spend several hours (or days) reading something, I want a PROPER FUCKING ENDING!
2. WTF? Go push that sweetness & light "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" over at hippies.com, Moonbeam.
Moonbeam? But he's long gone!
(Ask the owner of shadow@dementia.org what I'm talking about. And tell him you know he's called "Moonbeam". C'mon, look at that address - don't you want to troll him?)
Quote from: ataraxiaMoonbeam? But he's long gone!
(Ask the owner of shadow@dementia.org what I'm talking about. And tell him you know he's called "Moonbeam". C'mon, look at that address - don't you want to troll him?)
Watch me...
...not care.
Quote from: LMNOAlso a good way to keep the attention of a buncha adolescent males.
...gotta start the mind warping when they're young.
Oh, and there is a plus side to alchemy: New sexual positions. But not for enlightenment, for fun.
i read illuminatus and shrodinger's cat during puberty, and seriously by the time i got to the end of the 1st chapter, i had long ago stopped using it as masturbation material...
<-- is a fast reader.