Principia Discordia

Rant 153
Freedom?

"Stop cowering in the corners of life, hiding behind your ego armor and constricting your heart with your narrow minded clinging."
-The White Mouse

"We may idealize freedom, but when it comes to our habits, we are completely enslaved."
-Sogyal Rinpoche

"Sometimes even when the cell door is flung open, the prisoner chooses not to escape."
-Sogyal Rinpoche

In this vast cult of delusion followed fervently by most individuals of our global village we never imagine that all of our chasing after things, ideas, and experiences is leading us away from becoming free. We think of ourselves so wise and skeptical as we seek out those phenomena that we have been trained to think will make us happy and "real," forever accepted by ourselves and others as successful. But nothing lasts forever. We all know this, not intellectually, but instinctually, and that is why we become both expert adepts at our own denial and expert enablers of others' denial. We may think or say that we shouldn't think about the inherent impermanence of everything including ourselves, because that is morbid and it may bring us more fear. But in our denial of this, we merely express our great gnawing fear of the reality. We rush about in our impressive busy laziness, filling our lives with projects, schemes, plans, people, ideas, religions, experiences, rituals, chores, and anything we could find that could help us remain distracted. We hope that by this distraction that we can escape and finally reach some place in our lives where we will finally have everything we want and finally have pushed out everything about life that we don't want. And in this deception, we add more bricks to the walls that keep us limited, narrow minded, and enslaved. Just because the prison guard is our own delusion, does not mean we are any less enslaved than if the guard was someone else. The mental and emotional chains are always the hardest to break because we have been so skillfully trained to not see such things as having any reality.

But getting to know and befriending the impermanence of everything is the key that unlocks the cell of our lives. Every time we see a sunrise or we adore a lover or when we find ourselves not being able to stop laughing, we get a glimpse of this freedom. The question is how do we overcome the inculcation, the teachings, and the distractions of the cult of delusion so that we can learn to realize our freedom....Not on some abstract philosophical level. Not on some imagined higher spiritual or astral plane, but in the here and now, the present moment, within our very lives as we are living them now, standing on the ground. As long as we are asleep at the wheel of our lives and follow distractions without ever looking within at our motivations or intentions or even what or who we really are as opposed to what or who we are used to telling ourselves, we can't see it. So we devise all sorts of speculations and theories that we accept since they sound so hard core or true or realistic. But if we are not even adept at getting off from the treadmill of distractions and the pulling puppet-strings of manipulated desires (as exists in our current economy), how can we stand there and assert anything about the reality of anything else?

And herein is why looking within is the most potent powder keg flashes of mindfucking. Many people often think that looking within means avoiding the world and focusing on one's own mind and spirit...a sort of abandonment of reality. But they misunderstand. Looking within in those sorts of ways are an avoidance of reality or an attempt to escape responsibility. But there is another more profound looking within, which is not self-focused. It looks within because it is beyond mere cataloging mental perceptions, thoughts and feelings. It looks within to find out exactly what is doing the perceiving, thinking, and feeling. Where the hell are all these things coming from? They are coming from the same sort of processes that give rise to everything else in the universe that exists. There is no difference, though we often like to think so. This sort of looking within confronts and understands impermanence, no matter how frightening. This sort of looking within combined with looking without gives rise to more and more glimpses of what it is like to live with awareness as the center of your being. This gives rise to more and more choices and options in places you never even imagined. This sort of insight can lead you to the realization of where you really stand in relation to other beings and phenomena. Without that relation, you would not exist. And since everything changes and there is ultimately no stable and solid enduring self for you to retreat into and try to hide from the world, you can begin to develop a way of life that is free.

Freedom is one of our deepest instincts, though we are mostly trained by cultures and religions to run away from that freedom...We are trained almost to the point where we feel our instinct is to run from freedom. But the only thing happening here is that our fear has been manipulated either by others or by ourselves. (You didn't think that it was possible for beings to be so tyrannical that they manipulate themselves, did you? Think about it for a while and you will see they are all around you.) Did you ever stop to think about what could happen if you learned to see past the neurotic "convictions" of your own limitations? Our society says that we are free and celebrates our supposed individual liberty yet treats us and trains us to be obsessed only with power, sex, wealth, and everything else it wants us to buy into and sell while it distracts us from contact with the flavor of life and death. It teaches us to try to refine our desire-getting skills while pulling the wool over our eyes about the nature of those desires. And so we find ourselves thinking "if only I had this/that" sort of thoughts. Or we find ourselves trying so hard to grasp at the mercurial mirage of security and endless comfort. Sometimes we even find spiritual-sounding excuses to maintain this stupidity. We say that our endless jumping or running around looking for the next and latest or better thing to satisfy ourselves is the practice of non-attachment, but that is because we are denying the slavery we have fallen into.

We think we need not reflect too much on our lives, since we either believe we are eternal beings who deserve to live forever, or we think that there is no meaning to existence and therefore nothing matters. But these two twin poles are simply the symptoms of a creeping fundamentalism that underpins our choices in maintaining our outlooks. Neither of them are correct. Neither of them get to the heart of the matter. And both of them contribute to our anxiety and the existential angst we often deny is there, just under the surface goading us into making all the stupid and endlessly repeated mistakes we have ever made. Is there a way out? I wouldn't have written this if there was not.

To start with, paradoxically, one must come to the conclusion that there is no escape from your life. You must learn to deal with the whole show, in all of its pretty and ugly aspects, with all of the things you like, dislike, or feel nothing for. All of this is your life, and without any of them, you would not be who you are. Starting from the idea of "no escape" or "no exit," you can then learn to get to know yourself, your life, and this thing called reality that many people often talk about in pseudo-wise fashions. Sure you know about your feelings, thoughts, body sensations, thrills, boredom, spirituality, identity scripts and assemblage points. But what underpins them all? You may be exist because you think, but what is that mind that thinks? Who is this person that feels? How did you get to be the sort of person who claims to be yearning for freedom yet finds that such a difficulty that you many times feel it to be impossible? Don't answer the questions. They are not Socratic questions. They are simply calls for reflection, because intellectualizing about this sort of thing only leads to more distraction. Your possibility of freedom is already an inherent part of being alive. You simply need to learn how to embody it.

I leave you with a Buddhist reflection called "the four faults" to think about for the next time you find yourselves swimming in a sea of delusion and have started losing the ability to distinguish between what may be reality and what is the bullshit that is collecting in your perception. Why does complete liberation seem like such an outlandish and impossible idea? Because it is too close to be recognized. It is too profound for us to fathom. It is too easy for us to believe. And it is too wonderful for us to accommodate, especially in our cynical and world weary mindsets in this post-modern era where we are taught that fundamentalist skepticism is the pinnacle of intelligence.

Stay tuned for more rants.

January 6th, 2006 / Chaos 6th, 3172

-Irreverend Hugh, KSC
"What if when you try to kill the Buddha, She kicks your ass instead and leaves you there shredded and bleeding, yet laughing?"

that's fucking quality.

Quote from: East Coast Hustlethat's fucking quality.

What? I said nothing about sex in there.... did I?

Enlightenment is the sound of one mind masterbaiting.

This rant is just lube.

:twisted:

Quote from: The Irreverend St. Hughbert the sexayWhy does complete liberation seem like such an outlandish and impossible idea? Because it is too close to be recognized. It is too profound for us to fathom. It is too easy for us to believe. And it is too wonderful for us to accommodate

This is the best part of the entire damn thing.  I like it.  I'm going to tatoo that on my penis.

ZK, you won't have enough room for that even if you use one-point font.

Hugh, you are a wise man.

i hate reading
but
that was some spine-tingling shit

beautiful

Quote from: LHXi hate reading
but
that was some spine-tingling shit

beautiful

I have had those..."spine tingling shits." When it just feels so good to defecate and clear out the bowels. Every poo should be a transcendant and ecstatic moment.

Paging Martin Luther...

Quote from: eroticPaging Martin Luther...

Did Martin Luther have transcendent shitting experiences?

If he wrote about them, they could be added to our Discordian Corpus of literatures.

He had the vision while in the loo, I believe.

What would have happened if he told them to come back at a more convienient time?

Quote from: CainWhat would have happened if he told them to come back at a more convienient time?

He woould have developed a volvulus with acute intestinal obstruction with perforation, peritoneal abscess and possibly would have died from the resulting peritonitis.

Admit it.  You actually had to do research for that joke, didn't you?

Quote from: eroticAdmit it.  You actually had to do research for that joke, didn't you?

Actually no. I have been learning medical terms, pathology, anatomy/physiology for the past several months, so I have much of it in my head already.

Quote from: Irreverend Death to Poultry, KSCRant 153
Freedom?

Dags reply to Rant 153 Freedom?

Answers. Commentary and Other Miscellaneous Bullshit I Came Up While Reading Your Rant

Quote"Stop cowering in the corners of life, hiding behind your ego armor and constricting your heart with your narrow minded clinging."
-The White Mouse

No idea what is meant by that? Anyone get if that's supposed to mean anything?

Don't hide in the narrow restrictions of your bowels. Let yourself come out wide open with all the noise you can muster and smell? Yes! Make your presence be not only heard LOUDLY but be a flavor that can be savored PROUDLY??? Or something...? Like that... Don't hold it IN let it OUT.

Quote"We may idealize freedom, but when it comes to our habits, we are completely enslaved."
-Sogyal Rinpoche

No not really.... I'd say when defining freedom is easier to say what ITS nNOT, than to say what IT IS.  Ambiguous freedom? Yeah I think so. A habit is not slavery. Hell slavery isn't even slavery. Shit what constitutes slavery these days? Watching re-runs....

Quote"Sometimes even when the cell door is flung open, the prisoner chooses not to escape."
-Sogyal Rinpoche

Ah.... The illusion of choice when the training for a particular choice hasn't entered teh mind of the one presumed to have a choice available to them. Yeah. I agree except that the assumption in that case would be false. The prisoner cannot make the choice to escape, although escape seems ambigous instead of saying move to a larger cell without the visible iron bars.-heh j/k

QuoteIn this vast cult of delusion followed fervently by most individuals of our global village we never imagine that all of our chasing after things, ideas, and experiences is leading us away from becoming free. We think of ourselves so wise and skeptical as we seek out those phenomena that we have been trained to think will make us happy and "real," forever accepted by ourselves and others as successful. But nothing lasts forever. We all know this, not intellectually, but instinctually, and that is why we become both expert adepts at our own denial and expert enablers of others' denial. We may think or say that we shouldn't think about the inherent impermanence of everything including ourselves, because that is morbid and it may bring us more fear. But in our denial of this, we merely express our great gnawing fear of the reality. We rush about in our impressive busy laziness, filling our lives with projects, schemes, plans, people, ideas, religions, experiences, rituals, chores, and anything we could find that could help us remain distracted. We hope that by this distraction that we can escape and finally reach some place in our lives where we will finally have everything we want and finally have pushed out everything about life that we don't want. And in this deception, we add more bricks to the walls that keep us limited, narrow minded, and enslaved. Just because the prison guard is our own delusion, does not mean we are any less enslaved than if the guard was someone else. The mental and emotional chains are always the hardest to break because we have been so skillfully trained to not see such things as having any reality.

Where does desire come from? Where does want come from? The source namely our biology, our genetics, our situations, stations. Ah....

You mention training. This is the correct answer. Because a person cannot rise above their training. If I knew then what I know now....

QuoteBut getting to know and befriending the impermanence of everything is the key that unlocks the cell of our lives. Every time we see a sunrise or we adore a lover or when we find ourselves not being able to stop laughing, we get a glimpse of this freedom. The question is how do we overcome the inculcation, the teachings, and the distractions of the cult of delusion so that we can learn to realize our freedom....Not on some abstract philosophical level. Not on some imagined higher spiritual or astral plane, but in the here and now, the present moment, within our very lives as we are living them now, standing on the ground. As long as we are asleep at the wheel of our lives and follow distractions without ever looking within at our motivations or intentions or even what or who we really are as opposed to what or who we are used to telling ourselves, we can't see it. So we devise all sorts of speculations and theories that we accept since they sound so hard core or true or realistic. But if we are not even adept at getting off from the treadmill of distractions and the pulling puppet-strings of manipulated desires (as exists in our current economy), how can we stand there and assert anything about the reality of anything else?

Well again that's the thing isn't it. Where does one learn about that which allows one to see the wheel they are turning. What lifts the fog from the clouded mind. Other clouded minds? Unlikely.

QuoteAnd herein is why looking within is the most potent powder keg flashes of mindfucking. Many people often think that looking within means avoiding the world and focusing on one's own mind and spirit...a sort of abandonment of reality. But they misunderstand. Looking within in those sorts of ways are an avoidance of reality or an attempt to escape responsibility. But there is another more profound looking within, which is not self-focused. It looks within because it is beyond mere cataloging mental perceptions, thoughts and feelings. It looks within to find out exactly what is doing the perceiving, thinking, and feeling. Where the hell are all these things coming from? They are coming from the same sort of processes that give rise to everything else in the universe that exists. There is no difference, though we often like to think so. This sort of looking within confronts and understands impermanence, no matter how frightening. This sort of looking within combined with looking without gives rise to more and more glimpses of what it is like to live with awareness as the center of your being. This gives rise to more and more choices and options in places you never even imagined. This sort of insight can lead you to the realization of where you really stand in relation to other beings and phenomena. Without that relation, you would not exist. And since everything changes and there is ultimately no stable and solid enduring self for you to retreat into and try to hide from the world, you can begin to develop a way of life that is free.

I don't know man. You think there is a free will? Do you? If a person could come about to a definition of free will that is consistant or has some way of being validated. Looking within to change. Hmm.....

External influence shapes the world, train them in the way they should go, they won't depart from it. Because there is no choice. In this consideration. The educators of the world are trained in the education of educating. Formally or informally...

QuoteFreedom is one of our deepest instincts, though we are mostly trained by cultures and religions to run away from that freedom...We are trained almost to the point where we feel our instinct is to run from freedom. But the only thing happening here is that our fear has been manipulated either by others or by ourselves. (You didn't think that it was possible for beings to be so tyrannical that they manipulate themselves, did you? Think about it for a while and you will see they are all around you.) Did you ever stop to think about what could happen if you learned to see past the neurotic "convictions" of your own limitations? Our society says that we are free and celebrates our supposed individual liberty yet treats us and trains us to be obsessed only with power, sex, wealth, and everything else it wants us to buy into and sell while it distracts us from contact with the flavor of life and death. It teaches us to try to refine our desire-getting skills while pulling the wool over our eyes about the nature of those desires. And so we find ourselves thinking "if only I had this/that" sort of thoughts. Or we find ourselves trying so hard to grasp at the mercurial mirage of security and endless comfort. Sometimes we even find spiritual-sounding excuses to maintain this stupidity. We say that our endless jumping or running around looking for the next and latest or better thing to satisfy ourselves is the practice of non-attachment, but that is because we are denying the slavery we have fallen into.

Alright that's just weird... Since I thought first to just reply as I went along reading this and that's just odd.

Although I'd like to say that delusion or at least accepting the "illusion" reality that your senses present to you. ie; That you construct. For more see Epistemological Constructivism; though I don't agree with some elaborations of constructivism, many tenets of it I find merit in.

More at as I said back a ways to some other that the idea should be more at " using " the illusion verses " denying " that reality is outside of our current understanding, and probable even though we have chipped away at it more and more using the scientific method of testing reality " black box " knowlege aquisition of facts and data about our reality. We will to some extent always manipulate the data in the gathering process or shit something like that.

Maybe simplier to say reality is like a " black box " we put something in and getting something back out of it. Yet we can't fully concieve / understand the presence of the box. Well yeah.... something like that.

QuoteWe think we need not reflect too much on our lives, since we either believe we are eternal beings who deserve to live forever, or we think that there is no meaning to existence and therefore nothing matters. But these two twin poles are simply the symptoms of a creeping fundamentalism that underpins our choices in maintaining our outlooks. Neither of them are correct. Neither of them get to the heart of the matter. And both of them contribute to our anxiety and the existential angst we often deny is there, just under the surface goading us into making all the stupid and endlessly repeated mistakes we have ever made. Is there a way out? I wouldn't have written this if there was not.

Cognitive distortions lead to distorted cognitions.-heh If you say that next I'td be pretty fucking funny...

QuoteTo start with, paradoxically, one must come to the conclusion that there is no escape from your life. You must learn to deal with the whole show, in all of its pretty and ugly aspects, with all of the things you like, dislike, or feel nothing for. All of this is your life, and without any of them, you would not be who you are. Starting from the idea of "no escape" or "no exit," you can then learn to get to know yourself, your life, and this thing called reality that many people often talk about in cutie-wise fashions. Sure you know about your feelings, thoughts, body sensations, thrills, boredom, spirituality, identity scripts and assemblage points. But what underpins them all? You may be exist because you think, but what is that mind that thinks? Who is this person that feels? How did you get to be the sort of person who claims to be yearning for freedom yet finds that such a difficulty that you many times feel it to be impossible? Don't answer the questions. They are not Socratic questions. They are simply calls for reflection, because intellectualizing about this sort of thing only leads to more distraction. Your possibility of freedom is already an inherent part of being alive. You simply need to learn how to embody it.

Reflection! Yeah. Stare at the man in the mirror. Not the kid that used to ride his bike all day and mow lawns for candy and soda money on Saturdays. Yeah. That was a cool kid. Gone now replaced by an really older looking kid.

I don't know man. The other day I posted something that won't be read by many folks if any... Kind'uv like this since this post will appear too long to bear for many folks but I thought maybe you would read it and comment on it or not.

Anyways I said " Who are you " Now I suppose the short question by none other making the airwaves many times by none other than " The who " which makes me think of the whos from whoville and dr. seuss. Well anyways that's the question and if someone can't tell you who they are; then well; What the fuck?

QuoteI leave you with a Buddhist reflection called "the four faults" to think about for the next time you find yourselves swimming in a sea of delusion and have started losing the ability to distinguish between what may be reality and what is the bullshit that is collecting in your perception. Why does complete liberation seem like such an outlandish and impossible idea? Because it is too close to be recognized. It is too profound for us to fathom. It is too easy for us to believe. And it is too wonderful for us to accommodate, especially in our cynical and world weary mindsets in this post-modern era where we are taught that fundamentalist skepticism is the pinnacle of intelligence.

Ah.. there you go. Bullshit! Yeah it's great isn't it?

I wrote this just the other day to a non-audience of not too many. Check it.

from fuckitall/

Post subject: o b s e r v a t i o n  
 
not to go into what observation means but the old addage of the guy that watched the lid lift from the water boiling in the pot then went on to invent the steam engine, and all that. from a simple act of observation.

well this might not have anything at all to do with that; but! of all these different philosophy styles and such out and about styles of thought of life of living; seems most began with a nihilistic journey; a zen sort of trip.

a visit to the abyss; down the rabbit hole sort of thing. take the trip....

i give no link; because i wouldn't want any credit for what fun can be had in finding it for yourself. Don't dare fucking say I told you to question everything. Matter of fact don't start with nihilism; go further down than that; stare at the stranger in the mirror.

who are you....

Its mandatory to those that haven't done it. Mandatory! Get going...

Plus I could be bullshitting you; do you know how to tell if your being bullshitted. First you have to realize it's all bullshit.

Pick the kind smells best to you. Take a big whiff.... ah....

I wrote this for you....

I owe it all to become my brothers keeper....

Why am I still typing....

Some people never learn-heh

- d r i f t

this took about 5 minutes to compost. disagree?
less than a minute to read.

NRN  

QuoteStay tuned for more rants.

January 6th, 2006 / Chaos 6th, 3172

-Irreverend Death to Poultry, KSC
"What if when you try to kill the Buddha, She kicks your ass instead and leaves you there shredded and bleeding, yet laughing?"

[/quote]

Yeah as if I had a choice/ what a loaded word that is/ isn't it. Keep 'em coming man. I thought yeah drop in and check out rants for one of them long rants / more at essays. Have you had training btw. I mean college, philosophy / a structured course in philosophy, rhetoric, logic, etcetera....

Just wondering. I'm thinking of going to college if they allow hicks like myself through the admission screening out process that is? I mean going back to fifth grade would probably keep me from doing it. Anyways maybe another time.

I in no way expect any sort of similiar reply in return btw.-heh Actually none but I'll read it if your in the writing mood then. Alright then. That was unexpected. I mean this and thats it for now.

- Dags

Heh.

Training? Lots.

Now I am mostly an Erisian Counterevangelist and All Around No Good Shit.

Well you did invite me to stick around a while way back whenever I trailed into this forum from wherever. I got a little more to add to that thought on choice. For the training part of it; It seems simple enough that folks don't exceed their training in some respects maybe it's counterintuitive though some are trained to go beyond what they've been taught. So... Maybe not so simple. Anyways....

Let me get this idea down in writing while I'm thinking about it. Heres the thought regarding the ability to make choices; one instead of the other and so forth. If for example no choice truly exist. Strict determinism. Then the illusion of choice is still significant; for happiness. Now. These are two different ideas the illusion of choice and the reality of not having one.

On one side is the illusion of an outlook abiding a ; Scoop up all the happiness you can fit into your bucket; hitch your wagon to a star; thoughts it can produce irregardless of the situational train coming down the tracks or not. Independent // More of an attitude or awareness to make the best of it.

Verses the fact of the matter where it doesn't really matter because everyone is locked into their own snares or gifted with a life that will be and remain free of them; or somewhere in between or outside on either side of that.

Bill Hicks says he only deals in facts and that's why he was such a cocky bastard; well he did. So that's in a sense his philosophy wound up into one short phrase... yet he allows for his mind to juxtapose an make the best of it attitude in his motto. Enjoy the ride.

Now why did I type this. I thought I knew; but what difference would it make if I know whether or not I have chosen to write it; whether I did or not. Maybe some Shakespeare or Mark Twain shit would probably be fitting and many wouldn't get it.-heh So I went with Bill Hicks. So either way just wanted to write it out real quick. Alright then.

- Dags

too bad hicks never enjoyed the ride



LHX - knows when people are trying to convince themselves of something

i shed a tear for hicks

it always seems to be easier said than done

Hey Dags, here's a question for you.

Would it really matter to you in the long run whether free-will is an illusion?

Quote from: Irreverend Death to Poultry, KSCHey Dags, here's a question for you.

Would it really matter to you in the long run whether free-will is an illusion?

I'd rather know the truth; Even knowing; from my experience it seems the mind has a way of buffering the truth so it doesn't all come crashing in at once; if it's not stopped short by dissonance to begin with. So even if it took years of looking at it; eventually yeah! I rather know the truth about it.

I already think free-will is an illusion; however; so I don't think I'm choosing even though I'm making choices all the time. Now that contradiction hinges on an understanding that you can't really escape the illusion; even when you understand it. At least not and maintain what is commonly referred to as mental health.-heh

I guess an example of that would be sort of along the lines of where someone leaving christianity for example; might expect to become evil; because the training (programming, indoctrination) teaches such; yet it never happens! If anything changes at all it's more likely you'll become much less of an asshole to others; not just like you. Well except maybe rabid foaming at the mouth christians.-heh Online. In person; ? Maybe not so much. Atheist aren't exactly filling the prisons around here; anyways. Not that I'm making that argument just saying. All a part of the programming....

I was saying something in my response about how I can't seem to get a good working definition of free-will that is consistant.

The problem being that free-will is choices left up to the individual to decide for themselves. Sort of along the lines of freedom, and freedom of choice, etcetera. So what choices come from other than a persons inclinations, desires, etcetera... that they are born into and/or from their experiences and such...

Seems a paradox or contradiction that even knowing you have no choice; deterministic or materialitic worldview; still can't really escape thinking that you are deciding this or that or the other. Problematic is the decline towards a fatalistic worldview.

So no man. It wouldn't surprise me if free-will is an illusion since I already think so; what would surprise me is that if free-will is not a delusion; maybe I should have called it that.  

As far as thinking you simply have a choice when looking at some menu at a restruant and what have you. No real way to decern whether your making the choices yourself or not? Well more than likely because of your taste, likes, dislikes, and the million other operations your neurons fire off up in your head, what difference does it make?

When it comes to things like just being able to really believe or in the sense of free-willers believing in more or less "dead beliefs" in the sense of William James philosophy; I'd say no. Choices such as that I can't see possible without some real mindfuckery.-heh How'd I get into this...

Exactly. So what do you think? Can folks really choose choices apart from their biochemistry, etcetera....

Also, came back to edit(add) a little here and there. Freedom to follow your inclinations; interest; etcetera fit into the schema of determinism; because these things are caused; follow a causal link. I can't really say even though I've read what I've read on free-will; I still don't see how it's viewed where a person can choose to believe in what is viewed as absurd; automatically; or beyond what they've learned or have any knowledge of.

Another thing; If a person becomes inclined to accept an idea; their whole worldview can change; the impossible becomes possible for them, so to speak. But these things come from outside influences and from within; almost as the separation between what a person thinks of when they think of " who they are " is really on thin ice. Because when you think of yourself, or do any self evaluation who's that "extra person" doing those things and where did they come from. That's another story altogether I suppose.

Man you know. I just felt like talking (typing,writing) about this here thing  today. Can you tell?-heh Glad you asked.

- Dags

Well, yeah, I think people really can choose as part of their biochemistry.  At least I can.  It's kind of a paradox.  I made paradox into a fundamental religion at one time.  It still is my religion.  You're free to choose while I chain you up in my mental meanderings.  Be like me.  I'm free-drug.

I've got to admit that almost none of what I said in that reply above
makes much sense to me; at all.... But it was a good time just the same.-
heh  

Let me make this really simple; for myself if for nothing else.

Here's the paradox of the free-will / deterministic argument (debate)
philosophy or whatever it is. It has to do with that which is considered a
choice and that which is actually done.

Free-Will as I see it is basically this;

>Future Tense - I can choose to do many different things in the future.
>Present Tense - I have chosen to do this right now.
>Past Tense - I cannot change what I have done.

I'm thinking that would look fairly reasonable to most people.

Determinism as I see it is basically this;
>At all times future, present and past - I cannot change what I will do,
what I do now, and what I have done.

Also; more of a further point because this usually leads to matters of
responsibility.

>I am responsible for all that I do; no one lives my life or dies my death
but me.

So freedom to me is another one of those loaded words too. Like free-will
and nothing; infinity; and God.

In the sense of freedom to choose that is; Not sure I'm even bothering
with the incarceration or even on why I would not look up how to spell it.-
heh

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Like I said earlier when I was trying to keep it simple;

QuoteIf for example no choice truly exist. Strict determinism. Then the
illusion of choice is still significant; for happiness. Now. These are two
different ideas the illusion of choice and the reality of not having one.

Where the past cannot be altered; then the future and present cannot be
altered; and so no choice exist.

Yet in accepting that as truth the consequence becomes fatalism. Where
our present and future actions cannot change anything.


I disagree and say that our present and future actions are fixed; yet the
outcome and the lives of individual humans is affected in many ways,
changed, by the actions and future actions for each person.

- Dags

Let,Äôs bastardize Pascal,Äôs Wager:

Say you act as Free Will exists.  You make your choices, take responsibility, learn to control your life, and shape it the way you please.  It,Äôs hard work, but it makes you happy.

At the end of your life, in some mythical/mystical hypothetical situation, you find out that everything was predetermined.  You may feel like a chump, but at least you were happy.

On the other hand, say you act as if everything is Predestined.  Nothing is actually your fault, all your problems were ,Äúmeant to be,Äù, and resistance to the will of Predestination is futile.  

At the end of your life, in some mythical/mystical hypothetical situation, you find out that Free Will exists.  Now you,Äôre depressed and a sucker, because any problem you had was completely able to be avoided and/or overcome.

So you may as well act as if Free Will exists, because any other choice is a sucker,Äôs game.





Personally, I think that Free Will as a concept exists (,ÄúNothing is true; Everything is permitted,,Äù Hassan I Sabbah), but I also think that almost every human has too many self-imposed mental structures to act on it, and most people have physiological and psychological habits so ingrained upon them that they become entirely predictable.

Quote from: eroticLet,Äôs bastardize Pascal,Äôs Wager:

Say you act as Free Will exists.  You make your choices, take responsibility, learn to control your life, and shape it the way you please.  It,Äôs hard work, but it makes you happy.

At the end of your life, in some mythical/mystical hypothetical situation, you find out that everything was predetermined.  You may feel like a chump, but at least you were happy.

On the other hand, say you act as if everything is Predestined.  Nothing is actually your fault, all your problems were ,Äúmeant to be,Äù, and resistance to the will of Predestination is futile.  

At the end of your life, in some mythical/mystical hypothetical situation, you find out that Free Will exists.  Now you,Äôre depressed and a sucker, because any problem you had was completely able to be avoided and/or overcome.

So you may as well act as if Free Will exists, because any other choice is a sucker,Äôs game.





Personally, I think that Free Will as a concept exists (,ÄúNothing is true; Everything is permitted,,Äù Hassan I Sabbah), but I also think that almost every human has too many self-imposed mental structures to act on it, and most people have physiological and psychological habits so ingrained upon them that they become entirely predictable.

this is another big topic

i have found that free will only exists as temptation and a way to lead yourself to self-punishment

everything is permitted
but
everything also has its repercussions


mental structures had to be learned first in order to be self-imposed

kids dont come wired the same way a computer processor does

they learn to be predictable




respect due for mentioning death in this discussion
because the free will question and some sort of understanding of death must go hand-in-hand

Quote from: erotic

Personally, I think that Free Will as a concept exists (,ÄúNothing is true; Everything is permitted,,Äù Hassan I Sabbah), but I also think that almost every human has too many self-imposed mental structures to act on it, and most people have physiological and psychological habits so ingrained upon them that they become entirely predictable.

upon re-read - this is really good



ignorance is an epidemic
it has many sources
and
it perpetuates itself

Quote from: LHX

this is another big topic

i have found that free will only exists as temptation and a way to lead yourself to self-punishment

Only?  What about thinking for yourself?  Isn't that Free Will as well?

Quoteeverything is permitted
but
everything also has its repercussions

Well, yeah.  everything is permitted, including repercussions, revenge, and no one liking you because of what you did.  It's not consequence-free action.  It's not "everything is permitted, so go ahead and be an asshole."  As the woman said, everything is everything.  Your actions, their actions, the impersonal forces of the universe... everything.

Quotemental structures had to be learned first in order to be self-imposed

kids dont come wired the same way a computer processor does

they learn to be predictable

Agreed.  Everyone does.  You can't go through life as a blank slate.  Things get learned.  Where the process breaks down seems to be where assumptions are made, acted upon, and not questioned.  When the questioning stops, the action tends to become rote, stagnant.  Sometimes people are tought not to be curious; sometimes, they're just lazy.

Quoterespect due for mentioning death in this discussion
because the free will question and some sort of understanding of death must go hand-in-hand

Why?

Quote from: erotic

Quote from: LHX

this is another big topic

i have found that free will only exists as temptation and a way to lead yourself to self-punishment

Only?  What about thinking for yourself?  Isn't that Free Will as well?

i guess that depends on whether or not you notice a pattern in things

if you subscribe to 'as above so below' - you have 'free will' to follow the pattern

if you dont subscribe to that theory
then
i guess you have found some other definition
or
are still searching for something

Quote

Quoteeverything is permitted
but
everything also has its repercussions

Well, yeah.  everything is permitted, including repercussions, revenge, and no one liking you because of what you did.  It's not consequence-free action.  It's not "everything is permitted, so go ahead and be an asshole."  As the woman said, everything is everything.  Your actions, their actions, the impersonal forces of the universe... everything.

true
but
on first glance for most

it can look an awful lot like 'everything is permitted so be an asshole'

like when the wizard took off and mickey opened up the spell book
- that line of thinking can lead to a ass-whupping

alternatively - it could also just be a dramatic way to learn some lessons

Quote

Quoterespect due for mentioning death in this discussion
because the free will question and some sort of understanding of death must go hand-in-hand

Why?

death seems to be the only thing that causes people who take a serious look at free will to pause
before acting upon the impulse to wreck/fuck/ingest everything and anything they see

Still the determinist argument seems valid in as much as the free will argument seems valid. Both sides have gathered impressive evidence to support their own assertions. But both sides are simple delusional when taken to extremes.

Sure we have certain biological things that we can't control (such as the big three: Old Age, Sickness, Death). Sure a lot of our neurology is hardwired. And that's the rub on the determinist side - they falsely assume that hardwiring means predetermined. Even though the study of cognition and linguistics proves that though much more than we expect is already hardwired into our nervous systems, the outcome is still up in the air. The determinists also look to superficial aspects such as biochemistry, physiological functions, emotional habits, etc. Those are just waves on the ocean. And saying the ocean is made of water gets you no closer to the truth.

The free will proponents can seem to err too much in saying that our entire reality can be chosen for us by us in untrammeled limitlessness.  However, like the determinists, much of what they are saying makes sense and can be supported by the evidence. Free will supporters also like to focus too much on the superfical aspects like emotions, thoughts, and dreams, without ever once dwelling on the possible interelated causes of such conditions. Again, the see the waves and forget the ocean.

Both sides are merely paradigms and intellectual diddling around them gets us no where fast.

Why not try to find the nature of your mind and of life for yourself and let's leave tired and worn out theories to the past.

Quote from: LHX

Quote from: erotic

Quote from: LHX

this is another big topic

i have found that free will only exists as temptation and a way to lead yourself to self-punishment

Only?  What about thinking for yourself?  Isn't that Free Will as well?

i guess that depends on whether or not you notice a pattern in things

if you subscribe to 'as above so below' - you have 'free will' to follow the pattern

if you dont subscribe to that theory
then
i guess you have found some other definition
or
are still searching for something

Must it be ,Äúabove and below,Äù something?
If there is a pattern, are you sure it,Äôs not simply a subjective observation?

And anyway,

Free will means that whether or not there is some sort of pattern, you can do as you please.  Not having free will mans that you might be fooling yourself that you are doing as you please, but your entire life is predestined, and no matter what you do, nothing is random or unexpected.

Quote

Quote

Quoteeverything is permitted
but
everything also has its repercussions

Well, yeah.  everything is permitted, including repercussions, revenge, and no one liking you because of what you did.  It's not consequence-free action.  It's not "everything is permitted, so go ahead and be an asshole."  As the woman said, everything is everything.  Your actions, their actions, the impersonal forces of the universe... everything.

true
but
on first glance for most

it can look an awful lot like 'everything is permitted so be an asshole'

No one said it was easy,Ķ

Quote from: erotic
Must it be ,Äúabove and below,Äù something?
If there is a pattern, are you sure it,Äôs not simply a subjective observation?

'it depends on the creativity of the observer'

are the i ching and kabala subjective?

not if they work

Quote
And anyway,

Free will means that whether or not there is some sort of pattern, you can do as you please.  Not having free will mans that you might be fooling yourself that you are doing as you please, but your entire life is predestined, and no matter what you do, nothing is random or unexpected.

i am not so sure about that

you can have free will
but
choose not to use it

maybe that is more clear

you have free will to act contrary to an observed pattern
(go against the grain)
but
you are setting yourself up for some hell

Quote from: Irreverend Death to Poultry, KSCBut both sides are simple delusional when taken to extremes.

Sure we have certain biological things that we can't control (such as the big three: Old Age, Sickness, Death). Sure a lot of our neurology is hardwired.

call me delusional or straight nuts
but
i dont subscribe to 'the big 3' anymore

Quote
And that's the rub on the determinist side - they falsely assume that hardwiring means predetermined.

BINGO

just because there may be a path
that does not mean that it APPEARS the same way all the time

you can see this when taking a look at the study of 'history'
the historical PROCESS has some importance
but
the CONTENTS of history - names / faces / dates - have virtually no significance (nor can they even be agreed upon)

Quote
Why not try to find the nature of your mind and of life for yourself and let's leave tired and worn out theories to the past.

you have to bring all the worn out theories to the surface before you can flush them
just like getting rid of an ILLNESS

Quote from: LHX

Quote from: erotic
Must it be ,Äúabove and below,Äù something?
If there is a pattern, are you sure it,Äôs not simply a subjective observation?

'it depends on the creativity of the observer'

are the i ching and kabala subjective?

yes.

Quote
not if they work

Still subjective.  they suggest a possible structure, and it's the choices the observer makes via the interpretation that gives it shape.

Quote

Quote
And anyway,

Free will means that whether or not there is some sort of pattern, you can do as you please.  Not having free will means that you might be fooling yourself that you are doing as you please, but your entire life is predestined, and no matter what you do, nothing is random or unexpected.

i am not so sure about that

you can have free will
but
choose not to use it

maybe that is more clear

Can't believe I'm going here, but as Rush said, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."  Not choosing to excercise free will doesn't mean free will doesn't exist.

Quote

you have free will to act contrary to an observed pattern
(go against the grain)
but
you are setting yourself up for some hell

Why hell?
The observed pattern for the United States pop culture is American Idol, Fear Factor, Obesity, and Ignorance.  That, to me, is indeed hell.

I choose to act contrary to that pattern, and I am happier for it.

Quote from: eroticStill subjective.  they suggest a possible structure, and it's the choices the observer makes via the interpretation that gives it shape.

what would be your criteria for something to move from subjective to objective?

Quote

Can't believe I'm going here, but as Rush said, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."  Not choosing to excercise free will doesn't mean free will doesn't exist.

no argument here

i am saying it does exist
but
it may not be an exercise of good judgment to use it

Quote
Why hell?
The observed pattern for the United States pop culture is American Idol, Fear Factor, Obesity, and Ignorance.  That, to me, is indeed hell.

I choose to act contrary to that pattern, and I am happier for it.

yeah
great example

the search for righteousness is encouraged and runs rampant in all 50 states

you can get a starter kit at the local toys r us

Quote from: LHX

Quote from: eroticStill subjective.  they suggest a possible structure, and it's the choices the observer makes via the interpretation that gives it shape.

what would be your criteria for something to move from subjective to objective?

Good question.  Let me get back to you on that.

Quote

Quote

Can't believe I'm going here, but as Rush said, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."  Not choosing to excercise free will doesn't mean free will doesn't exist.

no argument here

i am saying it does exist
but
it may not be an exercise of good judgment to use it

But what pattern are you deciding to go along with, anyway?

Quote

Quote
Why hell?
The observed pattern for the United States pop culture is American Idol, Fear Factor, Obesity, and Ignorance.  That, to me, is indeed hell.

I choose to act contrary to that pattern, and I am happier for it.

yeah
great example

the search for righteousness is encouraged and runs rampant in all 50 states
you can get a starter kit at the local toys r us

:?:
You lost me.

Quote from: erotic

Quote from: LHX

Quote from: eroticStill subjective.  they suggest a possible structure, and it's the choices the observer makes via the interpretation that gives it shape.

what would be your criteria for something to move from subjective to objective?

Good question.  Let me get back to you on that.

i will wait impatiently

Quote

Quote

no argument here

i am saying it does exist
but
it may not be an exercise of good judgment to use it

But what pattern are you deciding to go along with, anyway?

the premise that there is an eternal pattern
and anything that runs contrary to it
is not eternal

Quote

Quote

Quote
Why hell?
The observed pattern for the United States pop culture is American Idol, Fear Factor, Obesity, and Ignorance.  That, to me, is indeed hell.

I choose to act contrary to that pattern, and I am happier for it.

yeah
great example

the search for righteousness is encouraged and runs rampant in all 50 states
you can get a starter kit at the local toys r us

:?:
You lost me.

do we have to debate whether america is heading in a nice direction?

isnt that kind of obvious?

Quote from: LHX
the premise that there is an eternal pattern
and anything that runs contrary to it
is not eternal

If there is an eternal pattern, i don't see it.

I see eddys in the eternal chaos, and I see people work hard to create negative entropy, but I don't see an eternal pattern.

Quotedo we have to debate whether america is heading in a nice direction?

isnt that kind of obvious?

Well, yes, but you can also see it as an observed pattern, and that to choose to oppose that pattern does not bring one "hell".

Quote from: erotic
If there is an eternal pattern, i don't see it.

I see eddys in the eternal chaos, and I see people work hard to create negative entropy, but I don't see an eternal pattern.

i hate to say it man
but
that looks an awful lot like a fragment of a pattern from where i am sitting

actually
depending on what you mean when you say 'negative entropy'
it could look almost exactly like a pattern

Quote

Quotedo we have to debate whether america is heading in a nice direction?

isnt that kind of obvious?

Well, yes, but you can also see it as an observed pattern, and that to choose to oppose that pattern does not bring one "hell".

there may be a difference between a tendency and a pattern
and from what you are saying

current america also seems to fit into a lot of other patterns
(usually toward the end of a cycle)

Quote from: LHX
call me delusional or straight nuts
but
i dont subscribe to 'the big 3' anymore

That doesn't matter. They still happen to you anyway.

Quote

just because there may be a path
that does not mean that it APPEARS the same way all the time

you can see this when taking a look at the study of 'history'
the historical PROCESS has some importance
but
the CONTENTS of history - names / faces / dates - have virtually no significance (nor can they even be agreed upon)

Actually, how much of that is simply enabling a pretty lie and how much of it can lead somewhere insightful? While I understand your idea about history and agree with it, those names and faces take meaning simply for those connected with them. The contents of history are what define it and give it meaning, otherwise there is no process. "Process" is still just a concept as any other concept and all concepts and concoctions disintegrate into other conditions, concepts, and concoctions.

Quote
you have to bring all the worn out theories to the surface before you can flush them
just like getting rid of an ILLNESS

Nah. Sometimes they can get burned up quickly.

Quote from: Irreverend Death to Poultry, KSC

Quote from: LHX
call me delusional or straight nuts
but
i dont subscribe to 'the big 3' anymore

That doesn't matter. They still happen to you anyway.

this is the thing i am still not convinced of anymore

Quote

Quote

just because there may be a path
that does not mean that it APPEARS the same way all the time

you can see this when taking a look at the study of 'history'
the historical PROCESS has some importance
but
the CONTENTS of history - names / faces / dates - have virtually no significance (nor can they even be agreed upon)

Actually, how much of that is simply enabling a pretty lie and how much of it can lead somewhere insightful? While I understand your idea about history and agree with it, those names and faces take meaning simply for those connected with them. The contents of history are what define it and give it meaning, otherwise there is no process. "Process" is still just a concept as any other concept and all concepts and concoctions disintegrate into other conditions, concepts, and concoctions.

ever since somebody recorded 'history' incorrectly
whether on purpose or not
'recorded history' has become nothing more than a really intense story

the PROCESS
seems to be what is inevitable

namely
the fact that communication has developed to the point that you and i will prolly never meet
but
the irreverend has impacted the way i approach what i do

the contents of history have nothing (or very little) to do with the fact that communication has reached the point that it is at right now

thats my hunch right now at least

Quote

Quote
you have to bring all the worn out theories to the surface before you can flush them
just like getting rid of an ILLNESS

Nah. Sometimes they can get burned up quickly.

this seems to be a pretty damn good point

Quote from: LHX

Quote from: erotic
If there is an eternal pattern, i don't see it.

I see eddys in the eternal chaos, and I see people work hard to create negative entropy, but I don't see an eternal pattern.

i hate to say it man
but
that looks an awful lot like a fragment of a pattern from where i am sitting

actually
depending on what you mean when you say 'negative entropy'
it could look almost exactly like a pattern

You gotta give me more to work with.

I see many little patterns emerge from chaos, and go back to chaos.  I see people trying to put things in an order that makes sense to them, and struggle to keep them that way.

But no great order.  Only chaos.

I have seen people burn out old theories in moments just by using "medication," not that I would say that would be the best way, but it can work for some.

Quote from: erotic

Quote from: LHX

Quote from: erotic
If there is an eternal pattern, i don't see it.

I see eddys in the eternal chaos, and I see people work hard to create negative entropy, but I don't see an eternal pattern.

i hate to say it man
but
that looks an awful lot like a fragment of a pattern from where i am sitting

actually
depending on what you mean when you say 'negative entropy'
it could look almost exactly like a pattern

You gotta give me more to work with.

I see many little patterns emerge from chaos, and go back to chaos.  I see people trying to put things in an order that makes sense to them, and struggle to keep them that way.

But no great order.  Only chaos.

chaos
something emerges from chaos
something is able to observe chaos
something is able to create something in chaos
something has emerged from chaos

next step would be to get that 'something' to be able to observe the chaos
and
to learn to create

does that seem like order?

Perhaps some of Bohm's ideas will work here. His implicate and explicate orders and all that.

i always come out of these discussions feeling better about things

i love you motherfuckers

Quote from: LMN?òLet,Äôs bastardize Pascal,Äôs Wager:

Say you act as Free Will exists.  You make your choices, take responsibility, learn to control your life, and shape it the way you please.  It,Äôs hard work, but it makes you happy.

At the end of your life, in some mythical/mystical hypothetical situation, you find out that everything was predetermined.  You may feel like a chump, but at least you were happy.

To me this seems like say you went to work everyday and worked 40 hour weeks at the No Exit Co. for fourty long years. You finally get to go to the top floor where the big boss's work to file for your pension and discover only one person sitting at a small desk with some takeout sitting on top. Confused you inquire " Isn't this where I file for my pension " the guy slips a contract your way that says. You will now get your pension the only catch is you keep your mouth shut about what your going to be told or we come and kill you! Hesitantly you sign. The guy tells you a little known fact. You could have stayed at home all these years, you could have done whatever you wanted to everyday for the last 40 years and still gotten your check. Now you'll get your retirement but you didn't even have to show up here to sign this to get that. Now that you know this; you keep your mouth shut! Or we WILL come and kill you.

That sounds more like fatalism. If I'm fated ( determined ) to be cured of this disease, I will be; whether or not I go to the doctor. I don't agree this is the case. Nor that " acting " in accordance with your choices in life; change the truth of determinism.  Determinism doesn't change anything; it's an explanation; I think it's a truer explanation myself.

QuoteOn the other hand, say you act as if everything is Predestined.  Nothing is actually your fault, all your problems were ,Äúmeant to be,Äù, and resistance to the will of Predestination is futile.  

At the end of your life, in some mythical/mystical hypothetical situation, you find out that Free Will exists.  Now you,Äôre depressed and a sucker, because any problem you had was completely able to be avoided and/or overcome.

On the first part; I never " get it " why the not your fault, thing? Is a quick assumption about determinism? Each person lives their life and dies their death; each person is responsible ( faults or credits ) go to them for all their actions.

Also; this thing about any problems that a person was able to overcome even though they didn't? Is in the negative. AFAIK The future hasn't happened yet. It's unwritten.

What will happen cannot be changed once it's in the past. Therefore because of what I do now; I cannot do another thing at this moment. In the future I can make plans for the future; Once the future becomes the past I will have done only what I have done and again am back where I started from ( in the present ) the only time I can actually do anything.

QuoteSo you may as well act as if Free Will exists, because any other choice is a sucker,Äôs game.

How does a determinist act. No different than that of a person believing they have free will. The only thing that is missing from the free will defense here is God. A God that has foreknowledge of what will come to pass. Otherwise; the way I see it; all future events cannot be known; ie; all states of the universe at every moment in time future and past infinitely. This is where the whole free will defense seems to rum amok.

What's the mysterious experience that let's you know which it is. In the afterlife with God sucking my cock and explaining it to me in mumbled engrish?

QuotePersonally, I think that Free Will as a concept exists (,ÄúNothing is true; Everything is permitted,,Äù Hassan I Sabbah), but I also think that almost every human has too many self-imposed mental structures to act on it, and most people have physiological and psychological habits so ingrained upon them that they become entirely predictable.

All concepts exist as concepts; says nothing as to whether they are true or not. Even the truth concept.-heh I really enjoyed your post man that was thought out. But I am grateful if and only if you enjoyed writing what you wrought. That LMN?ò is the master key. No one but you can write for you, or live your life for you, no one can experience your experience.

Enjoy IT. Wahtever the fuck IT is.-heh

- Dags

Quote from: Irreverend Death to Poultry, KSCStill the determinist argument seems valid in as much as the free will argument seems valid. Both sides have gathered impressive evidence to support their own assertions. But both sides are simple delusional when taken to extremes.

As I see it taken to the extremes determinism changes nothing. It's an explanation that stems from empirical laws regarding matter and physics; from the philsophy of materialism; and basically the relationship of cause and effect; applied to us.

If tommorrow I start speaking fluent Japanese as If I've done so for many years; then free-will would have more merit. That things can arise from nothing at all; without cause. A choice ( at the heart of the free-will debate ) doesn't come from nothing at all. It's made one way or the other; and It seems to me that since only one choice will be made; then thinking some other choice could have been made is delusional.

This is where I mentioned training and how it can make a difference in the simple phrase ;;; If I had only knew then what I know now.  I think there is something of substance there.

QuoteSure we have certain biological things that we can't control (such as the big three: Old Age, Sickness, Death). Sure a lot of our neurology is hardwired. And that's the rub on the determinist side - they falsely assume that hardwiring means predetermined. Even though the study of cognition and linguistics proves that though much more than we expect is already hardwired into our nervous systems, the outcome is still up in the air. The determinists also look to superficial aspects such as biochemistry, physiological functions, emotional habits, etc. Those are just waves on the ocean. And saying the ocean is made of water gets you no closer to the truth.

Chance is determined. Chaos is determined. Randomness is determined.

A whirlpool is an emergent property of water. It has an extra somethingness that a simple drop of water doesn't like a wave; Yet when the whirlpool dissipates you are left with water. Does the whirlpool come from nothing? No. Arise from chance, chaos, randomness? Perhaps. But not from nothing. Just as the human cognitiion and linguistics do not arise out of nothing; nor the decisions each person makes.

QuoteThe free will proponents can seem to err too much in saying that our entire reality can be chosen for us by us in untrammeled limitlessness.  However, like the determinists, much of what they are saying makes sense and can be supported by the evidence. Free will supporters also like to focus too much on the superfical aspects like emotions, thoughts, and dreams, without ever once dwelling on the possible interelated causes of such conditions. Again, the see the waves and forget the ocean.

I haven't mentioned compatablism yet. But this seems to be the middle ground between the two; so not to make an excluded middle argument. Accounts for as you say both the waves and the ocean; or a little bit both.

I do try and account for both emergent properties and the substance that makes them possible.

QuoteBoth sides are merely paradigms and intellectual diddling around them gets us no where fast.

Where do we go? Every think of how we'll depending on where you have traveled. When reading about this or that person or about this or that time in the history of man. Where you might be standing where this or that guy once stood. Looking at a mountain just the same; taking a shit. All those names in any books of any time period sopped up air, ate food, took a shit just like we do. Where did they go? Fast or slow....

QuoteWhy not try to find the nature of your mind and of life for yourself and let's leave tired and worn out theories to the past

I suppose after reading a little bit of this and that from long dead and really really old long gone philosophers and thinkers and such that even though I don't esteem myself in the same regard as them; I share in their spirit to communicate ideas and thoughts. To spend some time reflecting on the thoughts I have about this or that. I think the free will / determinism argument has been going on for at least four centuries give or take a few years.-heh It's still a pretty good one. Really hard to prove free-will and really against common reason to think otherwise.

For a really good and succint! Philosophy take a look at Carvaka if you haven't heard of it; the oldest thought out atheistic philosophy I know of; created as a response to the religion of that time and locality.

http://www.humanistictexts.org/carvaka.htm

If it's NEW to me; then It's new enough for me to check out the first time. I wouldn't expect anyone to get excited about watching The Matrix 1999 for the twentieth time either. But, damn you know some people never get tired of that movie. So I have no idea about the reasons behind that other than no one can ENJOY my swimming for me. Even if I paid them to do it; it's just not the same as getting in the water and doing it. doing it....

- Dags

note: I know earlier I said I don't understand what I'm saying; I changed my mind; when I read it today ti made perfect sense. Now I'm tired so I won't understand this If I read it again. So I won't. I need to take a break now. See you back here when I get back if your still here and all that. Alright then.

Quote from: Dags

Quote from: LMN0On the other hand, say you act as if everything is Predestined.  Nothing is actually your fault, all your problems were ,Äúmeant to be,Äù, and resistance to the will of Predestination is futile.

On the first part; I never " get it " why the not your fault, thing? Is a quick assumption about determinism? Each person lives their life and dies their death; each person is responsible ( faults or credits ) go to them for all their actions.

How can they be responsible for their actions if their actions were predetermined by an outside force?  "Predestination", at least in the sense LMN0 is using it, means that Somebody Out There has already decided that you *will* do a particular thing at some point in your life.  You can't make the choice to do otherwise.  And you didn't make the choice to do it.  It was completely taken out of your hands.  And with that lack of power (to do otherwise) comes a lack of responsibility.

(Unrelated: I've also heard "predestination" used to mean that &deity; has already determined which souls are going to heaven and which are going to hell.  You couldn't be saved by doing good deeds, or even condemned for doing bad ones.  Your motivation for doing good and avoiding evil was to check and see if you were one of the saved, and/or flaunt said status to others.)

Quote from: Dags
To me this seems like say you went to work everyday and worked 40 hour weeks at the No Exit Co. for fourty long years. You finally get to go to the top floor where the big boss's work to file for your pension and discover only one person sitting at a small desk with some takeout sitting on top. Confused you inquire " Isn't this where I file for my pension " the guy slips a contract your way that says. You will now get your pension the only catch is you keep your mouth shut about what your going to be told or we come and kill you! Hesitantly you sign. The guy tells you a little known fact. You could have stayed at home all these years, you could have done whatever you wanted to everyday for the last 40 years and still gotten your check. Now you'll get your retirement but you didn't even have to show up here to sign this to get that. Now that you know this; you keep your mouth shut! Or we WILL come and kill you.

That sounds more like fatalism. If I'm fated ( determined ) to be cured of this disease, I will be; whether or not I go to the doctor. I don't agree this is the case. Nor that " acting " in accordance with your choices in life; change the truth of determinism.  Determinism doesn't change anything; it's an explanation; I think it's a truer explanation myself.

Perhaps one of our metaphors was a bit off.  I,Äôll work off of yours, if you don,Äôt mind.

Let me start by assuming a few things:
1. The ,Äújob,Äù = one,Äôs life on earth.
2. The ,Äúboss,Äù = some higher power who knows

So, one cannot ,Äúquit,Äù the job, except for suicide.  Which is a choice, but a seemingly limited one.

Which means, the choices one makes in the job, as you graduate from mail boy to CEO, are seemingly yours to make.

But then, at retirement, The Mysterious Boss tells you that your career path was chosen before you were even hired.  

My point being, in this proposed situation, what would happen if you acted like you had free will, and you actually didn,Äôt?  Indeed, this does sound like fatalism, because in this instance, I,Äôm taking the fatalistic view.  It,Äôs my opinion that one would feel good about their lives because even an illusion of self-control would be better than the knowledge that your hard work meant nothing; that no matter what you do, you can,Äôt change your future.

Oh, and there,Äôs no pension.

QuoteOn the first part; I never " get it " why the not your fault, thing? Is a quick assumption about determinism? Each person lives their life and dies their death; each person is responsible ( faults or credits ) go to them for all their actions.

Also; this thing about any problems that a person was able to overcome even though they didn't? Is in the negative. AFAIK The future hasn't happened yet. It's unwritten.

What will happen cannot be changed once it's in the past. Therefore because of what I do now; I cannot do another thing at this moment. In the future I can make plans for the future; Once the future becomes the past I will have done only what I have done and again am back where I started from ( in the present ) the only time I can actually do anything.

In the second instance, to continue the metaphor, pretend I get hired as a mailboy, and I say to myself, ,Äúeverything has been determined, I just don,Äôt know what it is.  But if I just let the Universe do what it wants, my destination will reveal itself, and everything will be fine.,Äù

Decades pass, and I never get out of the mailroom, wile all my friends are executives.  I tell myself, ,Äúit must be that I have been destined to work in the mailroom all my life.,Äù

But then, at retirement, I find out from the mystery boss that it was up to me to determine how my career ladder would progress, that it wasn,Äôt foretold if I would be promoted.  It was my lack of choice-making that left me in the mailroom.  In this hypothetical, Once again, I feel it would be better to act as if one had Free Will, because in this instance, it turns out your did.

The point being, in each instance, it seems better to act as if you had Free Will.

QuoteHow does a determinist act. No different than that of a person believing they have free will.

That, I don,Äôt see.  If a Determinist acts, it seems to me that it would be under a conviction that what they are doing was Meant To Be.  This reeks of Greyface.  A Free Will-ist would act with more of a sense of personal responsibility.

QuoteThe only thing that is missing from the free will defense here is God. A God that has foreknowledge of what will come to pass. Otherwise; the way I see it; all future events cannot be known; ie; all states of the universe at every moment in time future and past infinitely. This is where the whole free will defense seems to rum amok.

The difference is, if the future is predetermined, then there will always be someone who will claim to know what that predetermination is (Cf: Manifest Destiny).  

I must confess, I,Äôll have to ask for further clarification as to your point about God (or the absence thereof), Free Will, whether the future can be known, and running amok.

QuoteWhat's the mysterious experience that let's you know which it is. In the afterlife with God sucking my cock and explaining it to me in mumbled engrish?

It,Äôs a hypothetical that allows this meta-think to posit that there is a way for the answer to be 100% known.  It sets up the game rules for this metaphor.  Nice imagery, though.

QuoteAll concepts exist as concepts; says nothing as to whether they are true or not. Even the truth concept.

Perhaps I should have said, ,ÄúPersonally, I fee Free Will exists technically (,ÄúNothing is true; Everything is permitted,,Äù Hassan I Sabbah), but I also think that almost every human has too many self-imposed mental structures to act on it, and most people have physiological and psychological habits so ingrained upon them that they become entirely predictable.,Äù


And just so we remember where I,Äôm drawing this hypothetical from, it,Äôs loosely based on Pascal,Äôs Wager (http://justfuckinggoogleit.com.).

maybe it could be said that once you conceptualize a pre-determined scenario
it become inescapable

you will never be able to truly convince yourself of 'free will' any longer




maybe it can be said that 'free will' only lasts as long as it takes to understand a new set of responsibilities
until you die
at which point you learn what you were really responsible for

Dags, I get what you are saying. But I believe the "fluent Japanese in an instant" example was unnecessary and ...still if it happened, it says nothing about either side: free-will or determinism. God could have zapped you. Or lightning. Or Noam Chomsky's Universal Grammer could have blown your mind up and allowed you to do it.  Who knows?

I have actually been into some earlier Indian philosophers/wise men. Nagarjuna is one of my favorites, do to his insistence on breaking down theories, ideas, and cherished assumptions.

Quote from: LMN?ò
Perhaps one of our metaphors was a bit off.  I,Äôll work off of yours, if you don,Äôt mind.

Let me start by assuming a few things:
1. The ,Äújob,Äù = one,Äôs life on earth.
2. The ,Äúboss,Äù = some higher power who knows

So, one cannot ,Äúquit,Äù the job, except for suicide.  Which is a choice, but a seemingly limited one.

Which means, the choices one makes in the job, as you graduate from mail boy to CEO, are seemingly yours to make.

But then, at retirement, The Mysterious Boss tells you that your career path was chosen before you were even hired.  

I meant it more literally. As an example of fatalism; NOT determinism. The point being that everyone that works at No Exit Co. (name coming from the current board name) gets paid whether they work or not; just the same. Fatalism.

In the deterministic world; things are exactly the same as the world people thinking they have free-will live in. Nothing is different about them; except an understanding that there is no free lunch. Nothing comes from nothing.

Fatalism is the philosophy that inaction changes nothing. If it's "meant to be; then it will be" ; determinism is not fatalism.

QuoteMy point being, in this proposed situation, what would happen if you acted like you had free will, and you actually didn,Äôt?  Indeed, this does sound like fatalism, because in this instance, I,Äôm taking the fatalistic view.  It,Äôs my opinion that one would feel good about their lives because even an illusion of self-control would be better than the knowledge that your hard work meant nothing; that no matter what you do, you can,Äôt change your future.

Acting is just that. The mind allows for many beliefs about reality and what is true; delusions and such that people can ad hoc their way through life is they so choose; as Nietzche said " "A casual stroll through a lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."

QuoteOh, and there,Äôs no pension.

Nope you DO get a pension for the hard work you didn't have to do. You just have to keep your mouth shut and not tell the others what you know.-heh

QuoteIn the second instance, to continue the metaphor, pretend I get hired as a mailboy, and I say to myself, ,Äúeverything has been determined, I just don,Äôt know what it is.  But if I just let the Universe do what it wants, my destination will reveal itself, and everything will be fine.,Äù

Decades pass, and I never get out of the mailroom, wile all my friends are executives.  I tell myself, ,Äúit must be that I have been destined to work in the mailroom all my life.,Äù

But then, at retirement, I find out from the mystery boss that it was up to me to determine how my career ladder would progress, that it wasn,Äôt foretold if I would be promoted.  It was my lack of choice-making that left me in the mailroom.  In this hypothetical, Once again, I feel it would be better to act as if one had Free Will, because in this instance, it turns out your did.

Sort of like the mystery boss tells you what determinist already know. You must do something ( cause ) to get the desired benefits of that action (effect ). Well I suppose others can do for you; but it cost someone something. Determinism doesn't contradict physics and natural laws.

QuoteThe point being, in each instance, it seems better to act as if you had Free Will.

You ask further on for me to define some things can you define what you mean by free-will. I'm thinking free-will is the " freedom " to act outside of your predisposition; I guess that's a good enough term. To act outside of what you would do given your personal and individual sum of experiences and knowledge and things of that nature.

Shit man... hmm...  Too wordy... Free-will as the ability to choose against your own nature. I suppose is a much simplier way of putting it.

I'm not saying against nature as limited to all pleasent things; I'm just saying given the scope and breadth and depth of your individual character only one choice really exist. In the sense of future, present, and past. Just as a past choice is ONE and not ANOTHER. All choices are ONE and NOT ANOTHER. I'm not shouting either just tired and typing quotation marks.

Quote

QuoteHow does a determinist act. No different than that of a person believing they have free will.

That, I don,Äôt see.  If a Determinist acts, it seems to me that it would be under a conviction that what they are doing was Meant To Be.  This reeks of Greyface.  A Free Will-ist would act with more of a sense of personal responsibility.

Well the reality of the situation makes it necessarily so. Whatever a person does is what they do. Irregardless of what they believe about it. Reality kicks the real McCoy and determinism doesn't contradict it as far as I know.

QuoteThe difference is, if the future is predetermined, then there will always be someone who will claim to know what that predetermination is (Cf: Manifest Destiny).  

People claim all sorts of things. The future hasn't happen yet or it wouldn't be the future. Determinism doesn't change that. Problem with prediction is the number of variables. Determinism stems from cause and effect; which is the basis of physics and such; As far as I know; no evidence exist to prove that the future has already happened. Nor that it can be certainly known as Einstein said " Reality is an illusion; albeit a persistant one". If reality were to change so would our empirical laws concerning it; conservation laws; etcetera...

QuoteI must confess, I,Äôll have to ask for further clarification as to your point about God (or the absence thereof), Free Will, whether the future can be known, and running amok.

Free-will stems from the assumptions that everything comes from nothing. That effects do not require causes. You can choose things apart from your nature; you can decide and have abilities outside of your nature; experience; etcetera... That was my point about speaking fluent Japanese tommorrow; an effect with no cause....

I think God is an extra assumption given to anthromorphic leanings to understand the effects of the world; apart from understanding the cause...

I think I explained a bit more what I regard as the free-will argument.....

I don't think the future can be known entirely; but understanding reality as being persistant and for what " like causes produce like effects " we can predict many things within reason .....

What I meant by running amok is trying to ad hoc reasons why a person could make choices apart from what they have already chosen to do. This or that; instead of what was actually chosen. All one does is all one does; our minds certainly allow for us to play a this or that scenario which is great I'm not knocking it; but once the choice slides into the past; it cannot be any other.

Quote

QuoteWhat's the mysterious experience that let's you know which it is. In the afterlife with God sucking my cock and explaining it to me in mumbled engrish?

It,Äôs a hypothetical that allows this meta-think to posit that there is a way for the answer to be 100% known.  It sets up the game rules for this metaphor.  Nice imagery, though.

Sure. Thinking of what I said about ' If I'd known then what I know now' choices would be different. That's why knowledge is power. Training in the way a person should go, they won't depart from it.  Not saying that people don't exercise self training or that folks don't follow their own natural predilictions either.

Quote

QuoteAll concepts exist as concepts; says nothing as to whether they are true or not. Even the truth concept.

Perhaps I should have said, ,ÄúPersonally, I fee Free Will exists technically (,ÄúNothing is true; Everything is permitted,,Äù Hassan I Sabbah), but I also think that almost every human has too many self-imposed mental structures to act on it, and most people have physiological and psychological habits so ingrained upon them that they become entirely predictable.,Äù

Yet I would disagree as to what Hassan has said about nothing being true.

Nothing doesn't exist because it can't be defined. Nothing is the absense of something. If you can define something then it's not nothing. What is the nothing Hassan can speak of? All absense of truth? Yet to say " Hassan is quoted as saying this nonsense " Is a true statement. Therefore a truth can be said ABOUT what Hassan has wrote. Thus invalidating his statement.

Also everything is too vague to defend. But I do like quotes and they pack alot into a tight space. It'd require some elaboration, or I'd have to read more of his work to understand what he means with that; doubting that I'd agree with it; I'm already biased... so....

Anyways... In determinism reality exist in it's true state; We then can manipulate reality by producing effects and recording what we learn about it. If it's consistent then that tells us something about reality. Because we can communicate what we have learned; not everyone has to start from the beginning; we can try and build on that knowledge but difficult as it may be; so much is known already that takes a full lifetime to even contemplate or try and learn a fraction of it.

- Dags

QuoteAnd just so we remember where I,Äôm drawing this hypothetical from, it,Äôs loosely based on Pascal,Äôs Wager (http://justfuckinggoogleit.com.).

Yeah; I based my hypothetical on the ideas of fatalism and tried to explain why determinism is not fatalism at all. Though it might seem that way without knowing what is which one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatalism

Quote from: DJRubberducky

Quote from: Dags

Quote from: LMN0On the other hand, say you act as if everything is Predestined.  Nothing is actually your fault, all your problems were ,Äúmeant to be,Äù, and resistance to the will of Predestination is futile.

On the first part; I never " get it " why the not your fault, thing? Is a quick assumption about determinism? Each person lives their life and dies their death; each person is responsible ( faults or credits ) go to them for all their actions.

How can they be responsible for their actions if their actions were predetermined by an outside force?  "Predestination", at least in the sense LMN0 is using it, means that Somebody Out There has already decided that you *will* do a particular thing at some point in your life.  You can't make the choice to do otherwise.  And you didn't make the choice to do it.  It was completely taken out of your hands.  And with that lack of power (to do otherwise) comes a lack of responsibility.

(Unrelated: I've also heard "predestination" used to mean that &deity; has already determined which souls are going to heaven and which are going to hell.  You couldn't be saved by doing good deeds, or even condemned for doing bad ones.  Your motivation for doing good and avoiding evil was to check and see if you were one of the saved, and/or flaunt said status to others.)

Determinism doesn't change responsibility. It might make for understanding certain behaviors don't arise from nothing at all. That if someone does something that was the only choice available to them. Past actions cannot be changed. Teaching someone something, training someone to do something, does change what they will do in the future. A persons future can be systematically projected; As much as a person capable by nature to be trained to fly a fighter jet; can in the future pilot a fighter jet. Determinism doesn't change anything apart from how things already are.

If a person does something ' then they are responsible for having done it '. No one else but them did it.

Understanding both of these things; then it becomes more readily understood why parents are held accountable for the actions of their children in many instances. Because they are the primary trainers of them; the responsibility doesn't rest on the child. Past a certain age though a person reaches an age of accountability and they are held responsible for what they do in certain instances.

Maybe it'd be simplier to just say that determinism changes not one thing about " How we do business "  

A primer for materialism and in regards to humans in general check out " what is man " by mark twain - here for free and all that ....

http://users.telerama.com/~joseph/wman.html

- Dags

Quote from: Irreverend H?ºgh, KSCDags, I get what you are saying. But I believe the "fluent Japanese in an instant" example was unnecessary and ...still if it happened, it says nothing about either side: free-will or determinism. God could have zapped you. Or lightning. Or Noam Chomsky's Universal Grammer could have blown your mind up and allowed you to do it.  Who knows?

I have actually been into some earlier Indian philosophers/wise men. Nagarjuna is one of my favorites, do to his insistence on breaking down theories, ideas, and cherished assumptions.

It was just an example of an effect ( speaking Japanese ) without a cause ( no training or reason to have the ability )

I think it does; it would show a choice existed other than what already is available to a person; or within their " spectrum of choices " for the day.

It didn't happen though. Although I do know some Japanese; but I also spent some time in Japan. So? Not really miraculous if I did. Just trying to make an relevant example. Fluent Japanese OTOH... Ouch... Enough to get around Japan was bad enough and I could tell from their tiny expressions my mouth was chainsawing their language! Oh well .... Good thing a LOT of them speak engrish.

On that about breaking down theories, ideas, and cherished assumptions I hear you on that man.

Lots of things that are considered proven scientific facts all began as theories, ideas, and assumptions so I'm not knocking them on that account. I'm typing this into what was once just an idea, so you might read it or someone else. Reality is the arbitrator of what really happens though.

What's odd; strip things down of all the rhetoric, flashy displays, extra superfulous jargon, and basically anything that isn't a bare assed theory, idea, or assumption. Makes it a hell of a lot easier to see what's being said; lot's of times little to nothing. Though, at least sometimes, all those other things can make it up; by at least keeping it entertaining.-heh

- Dags

Last time I checked, Predestinationers and Free-Willers were still tied in the Fourth Quarter.

Either way, it doesn't matter.

Before I get into this more deeply (as it will probably take most of the morning), I just want to point out that it looks like we're talking about separate issues.

I was soley referring to "there is no set future, and no master plan", v "the future can be known, and there is a master plan."

You seem to be dealing with "Nothing can be changed" v "specific actions produce specific results."

In this, the two positions are dealing with completely different issues.  If you like, I can switch gears & talk about Determinism.

Your call.

double post

Quote from: erotic
"the future can be understood, and there is a master process."

for the record
that is roughly my current understanding

Quote
You seem to be dealing with "Nothing can be changed" v "specific actions produce specific results."

the contents can change
the process cannot

Quote from: Caster BraidsLast time I checked, Predestinationers and Free-Willers were still tied in the Fourth Quarter.

Either way, it doesn't matter.

thats the way they staged it

they take tips from professional wrestling

Quote from: LHX

the contents can change
the process cannot

Both the process and the contents are simply conditions and contingencies that are subject to and composed of yet more of the same.

What do you say to back up you statement?

Quote from: Irreverend Death to Poultry, KSC

Quote from: LHX

the contents can change
the process cannot

Both the process and the contents are simply conditions and contingencies that are subject to and composed of yet more of the same.

What do you say to back up you statement?

i am saying regardless of the form the contents take
the result of the process is the same 1000000 times out of 1000000

hitler wins wwII
we still wind up with the internet
and we still wind up discussing this


all suffering leads to the same lessons
whether you suffer from having too much
or
too little


if the astros had beaten the white sox
the baseball season still would have ended


process = constant
content = infinitely variable - limited only by perspective and imagination

Okay, now you need to support your assertions.

If all contingencies and conditions are inter-dependent, and there are many ways that "things" could change and develop and disappear, how can you think that because phenomena arose a certain way up to now, that that is the way it was determined to be?

There are no straight lines. and No easy answers.

Quote from: Irreverend Death to Poultry, KSC

If all contingencies and conditions are inter-dependent, and there are many ways that "things" could change and develop and disappear, how can you think that because phenomena arose a certain way up to now, that that is the way it was determined to be?

the process IS the arising of 'phenomena'

whatever form the phenomena takes

it 'arose'


and from phenomena eventually more will arise

QuoteThere are no straight lines. and No easy answers.

couldnt have said it better

But "arising" is just the conventional way we express the idea of certain conditions coming together to form some phenomena that we have already categorized.

Quote from: Irreverend Death to Poultry, KSCBut "arising" is just the conventional way we express the idea of certain conditions coming together to form some phenomena that we have already categorized.

are you saying that there is a possibility that you have not arisen or emerged from anything?

Quote from: LHX

Quote from: Irreverend Death to Poultry, KSCBut "arising" is just the conventional way we express the idea of certain conditions coming together to form some phenomena that we have already categorized.

are you saying that there is a possibility that you have not arisen or emerged from anything?

Heh. There is a possibility that our conceptions and conventional ways of seeing things might be not the whole story, but only more investigation from each one of us into our own situations can be helpful here.

Quote from: Irreverend Death to Poultry, KSC

Quote from: LHX

Quote from: Irreverend Death to Poultry, KSCBut "arising" is just the conventional way we express the idea of certain conditions coming together to form some phenomena that we have already categorized.

are you saying that there is a possibility that you have not arisen or emerged from anything?

Heh. There is a possibility that our conceptions and conventional ways of seeing things might be not the whole story, but only more investigation from each one of us into our own situations can be helpful here.

that
my friend
is an excellent point of view


LHX - always finds the best discussions at pd.com

Quote from: eroticBefore I get into this more deeply (as it will probably take most of the morning), I just want to point out that it looks like we're talking about separate issues.

Isn't it a strawman fallacy to argue against someone for something that someone didn't state? IOW I didn't make these arguments. So why do I get the impression I'm being said to have made them?

QuoteI was soley referring to "there is no set future, and no master plan", v "the future can be known, and there is a master plan."

The future hasn't happened yet so it isn't "set" that is Fatalism is the stance that the future is set. A master plan would involve a  master planner ( the one God TM ) that is Theism that takes the stance of a master plan where we are slaves to the master.-heh

QuoteYou seem to be dealing with "Nothing can be changed" v "specific actions produce specific results."

It's not my stance that nothing can be changed; it is my stance that like causes produce like effects. It's also my stance that truth is relative and dichotomies are a fairly useless means of arriving at any particular truth.

Also we could probably get somewhere quicker by NOT going from specific to general because it's usually more problematic verses going from general and working towards more specific situations.  That'd be deduction over inference; I think.

QuoteIn this, the two positions are dealing with completely different issues.  If you like, I can switch gears & talk about Determinism.

Well since that's my stance It'd keep me from having to argue against stances I'm not taking.

Your call.[/quote]

I think I'll make a review of William James essay The Will To Believe and encourage anyone else interested to do so; because when speaking of choices and the will to make them; it's all the rage I think. Plus it's rather short and to the point IIRC; regards the will to make choices outside of one's nature and circumstance, experiences.... etcetera.

Here's but one link to it.

http://falcon.jmu.edu/~omearawm/ph101willtobelieve.html

Then I'll ponder the ideas of being "free" or what "freedom is under discussion" from the OP Rant.

Then maybe I'll look again and see if any arguments for free-will resemble anything with/along any arguments that we have freedom that isn't already determined anyways?

But then again probably fatalism will be mistaken for determinism; the compatabilist will think it's not weak determinism in sheeps clothing and determinism will again wind up being the case; either way.-heh

But; if not then I'd like to see it. Though it'd probably be a long shot. As I'm pretty much biased at this point.-heh But it's still fun to wax philosophical at least I think so. Alright then.

- Dags

Please to note:

1.  I was referring specifically to what you said, not LHX.  I may have misunderstood your point about Determinism; shit happens.  But I wouldn't classify that as a Strawman fallacy; instead, I was attempting to clarify the issue.  The issue being that LHX wasn't talking about Determinism, per se.


2.  the "v" between my approximations indicate "versus" as in "as opposed to", and they were trying to frame the issue, not conclude it.  As you can see, a conversation that revolves around:

"there is no set future, and no master plan", as oppsed to "the future can be known, and there is a master plan"

is different from: "Nothing can be changed" v "likeactions produce like results."

It appeared to me that I was dealing with the former, and you were dealing with the latter.  In this sense, while we are responding to each other in the same thread, we are not communicating.  I was attempting to bridge that gap.


Perhaps I don't completely understand the determinist stance.  Perhaps you didn't fully understand why or how I ripped off Pascal's Wager.  In the end, however, I get the feeling we're not very far apart in our opinions about the nature of Universe.

Attention, Hugh:

Why is there no freedom for Synaptix?

Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerAttention, Hugh:

Why is there no freedom for Synaptix?

Because he lost his copy of the Heart Sutra.

Quote from: eroticPlease to note:

Noted:

QuotePerhaps I don't completely understand the determinist stance.  

Heh- Me either. Nor do many that agree with it incompletely on the basic assumption that no particular thing happens without some kind of cause.

I have looked at it for a while and found it more compelling as "how it really is"; the main problem being it's counterintuitive.

QuotePerhaps you didn't fully understand why or how I ripped off Pascal's Wager.

The PW you made seemed like choosing free-will or fatalism. I'm betting on another option not included in that wager so I thought you meant something else. :shrug:

QuoteIn the end, however, I get the feeling we're not very far apart in our opinions about the nature of Universe

Specifically just speaking for myself and what I believe.

I don't think the future is fated. Fated presumes the future is written in stone no matter what I do or what happens.

The future hasn't happened yet, or it wouldn't be called that. As simple as that sounds I think it is a powerful part of determinism.

I think the future is determined by the actions of the past moving towards the future. Yesterday and a billion years ago affects today, tommorrow and a billion years into the future. Not one single thing is ahead of now. Nor can act at any other moment. The future is unfolding all around us all the time.

I think the paradox of life; of determinism; is in our conceptions of time. Projecting fixed events into an unfixed future or projecting the past into the future. Saying then that determinism means the future is written in stone irregardless; but it isn't! It's always been unwritten or it wouldn't be called the future.

So what I do or what happens regarding my life is part determined by what I do or don't do, and part by what happens or doesn't happen.

What will I do? What will happen? I can't say except for what I'll actually do and whatever actually happens.

So as far as master plans and changing things; If I want to put my two cents into making a plan and following through on it would be more than waiting on the future which will always be in the future until I'm dead and the future is gone as far as I'm concerned with it.-heh

-Dags