QuoteDon't even fucking ask me how much or how hard it was to just get this fucking text file to show up to post here. Just read it. Tonight was fucking wierd. I think I will avoid the internet for several thousand years now. It's been a long night after a long week after a long....you know that shit.
Rant 154
The Pretty Noose"Theories are like patches on a coat, one day they just wear off."-Tibetan saying
"You chuckle from inside as you see the facade of samsara and nirvana; [this] view will keep you constantly amused, with a little inner smile bubbling away all the time."-Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
"If you can't stand the thought of being limited by someone else's beliefs and ideas, why be confined to your own ideas and beliefs?"-from an earlier rant
Nihilism is as much an abdication of personal responsibility as essentialism. Both are the dull radiance of stupidity tricking you into the seemingly more comfortable idea that there is no such thing as free will. But this idea is only an ancient superstition repackaged in a more scientific wrapper for today's supposedly more sophisticated public. You can deny free will, even as you deny that you have chosen to think this way. Then what are the causes of you being here at this moment, reading this? Destiny? Fate? Fortune? (Certainly not karma, since most people who evoke karma have little understanding of the concept.) No. Those terms sound too religious or superstitious. So you prefer to think of your abdication of responsibility as something else like social currents buffeting you along, or as upbringing, or as biological expressions, or as some combination of these things. But your supposedly materialist terminology doesn't mask the old superstition which excuses your behavior. After all of this, you may finally realize that no one could really care on a day to day level about the free will / not free will argument, since it has about as much relevance as discussions of angels dancing on pin heads. It is clear, when one's head is not full of the bull shit of philosophy, that on a day to day and realistic level you have a certain degree of choice which is reflected in certain conditions of your life. That said, drop this philosophical speculation about free will like a bad habit. It only leads to stupidity.
What is the truth or truths as you know them? Are you willing to let such truths take over your life or excuse you to do evil things to others? Do you let such truths delude you into thinking you are better or worse than others? Do these truths become stories you tell yourself in an effort to cobble together some identity fiction that will finally be recognized by others? Why should you even care? Do you let these truths become foundations of bullshit that you hide behind in your attempts to make the universe do what you want?
The problem is not that you lack freedom. You have ample opportunities to exercise that freedom. The problem is that you believe that in order to be free you must get everything you want, eradicate everything you dislike, while ignoring the fact that the universe and everything else out there adds up to so much more than you. Instead of seeing this as it is, you try to hide behind extremes of either "determination" or "free will." But both of these extremes are merely false choices. They are simply more jewels on the pretty noose of attachment which is strangling you from seeing things as they are. When was the last time you asked yourself "what in the hell is really going on?" and when was the last time you asked that question and actually didn't deny the answer?
I can help, but my truths are only relevant for this lifespan I habitually call mine, and then only for the situation I am currently in. In a contingent and endlessly shifting reality, having a truth that claims to have figured out all the answers to anything for all time is simply capitulation to delusional stupidity, no matter how consoling or attractively dazzling such a truth may seem. Remember the old Discordian adage "It is my firm belief that I must hold no firm beliefs." Some of the insights about our human psychology that I rant on about have been suggested to me by people trying to live in freedom from bullshit, so I try to share them, but even they are not truths to cling to. They are simply the responses I have found for dealing with the bullshit in and around me. Some of you may find them useful. (Otherwise go read some other rant I have written. I have written so many, I am sure that your burning issue has been dealt with at some point.)
Despite all that, it is fanatical to assume that reality has or does not have any meaning. Don't be so dumb. We are the sort of beings who inhabit a reality in which it makes sense for our minds to try to make sense of reality. That is simply because we are linguistic beings. Meaning is wrapped up in the semiotic web that has been instilled in us from our primal language instinct. Reality is neither meaningful nor meaningless from any philosophical standpoint. It is simply what it is. And it can be changed. So if you feel it is meaningless than the onus is on you to make it meaningful. That is your birthright after all. So enough of this pretty noose of abstractions talking about nihilism or essentialism. Those are simply terms that we get caught up in and bewitched by. The joke is on us and we are the jokers!
-Irreverend Hugh, KSC, DSSS/PMM Co-conspirator
January 31st, O??mealg, 2006
As usual, nice rant.
Another one of the pithy phrases people tend to forget is that of the Agnostic, "I don't know." Not enough people are comfortable in using this phrase with no fear or self-deprecation, and certainly without a sense of finality.
It's "I don't know, but I want to keep trying to find out," not "I don't know, so why bother?"
Quote from: erotic
It's "I don't know, but I want to keep trying to find out," not "I don't know, so why bother?"
powerful
Quote from: eroticAs usual, nice rant.
Another one of the pithy phrases people tend to forget is that of the Agnostic, "I don't know." Not enough people are comfortable in using this phrase with no fear or self-deprecation, and certainly without a sense of finality.
It's "I don't know, but I want to keep trying to find out," not "I don't know, so why bother?"
This is very very true.
Keeping it short.
Nihilism is a paradoxial philosophy; the best thing I think nihilism has going for it is a sort of launchpad to something else. Deconstruct all your beliefs and values; then start over.
Welcome to a void that is greater than your own.
Fatalism is the belief that irregardless nothing can be changed; it's "determinism gone wild" not determinism.
For the freedom thing in regards to free will I think I've found a resolution. Self-determination. If you've got it then you got it. If not then maybe theirs a "training program" available.-heh
I still don't know what "free-will" is supposed to be? Here's the problems I got with it.
Problem 1.
Free-will; A person takes a vacation day instead of working on friday. (what actually happened) In their mind they reason that they could have went to work instead of taking that day.(actually no they couldn't do either it was one or the other but not both) Maybe it's a semantical hobgoblin? But they actually determined to take friday off or It was determined for them by something other than themselves.
The problem here is that the past is "set" it cannot actually be changed. Free-will concludes that the past could've been different? Determinism leads to the conclusion that after what actually happens happens then that is it.
Problem 2.
Also to me it seems a belief that "free-will" is true is more compatable from believers sense of guilt in regards to there friends, loved ones burning in hell ; because at anytime " They are free to choose to believe in God(tm)" thereby not suffering hell.
A person cannot choose to believe whatever at any old time without cause to do so. This is covered well by William James essay The Will To Believe. It can be found many places on the net here's one such place that includes additional commentary on it.
http://ajburger.homestead.com/files/book.htm
Problem 3.
Those claiming "free-will" is true also claim that if determinism is true then people aren't responsible for what they do. " Since they have no choice "
These folks are neglecting the fact that they are the only person that is "them". If it's not you that carves up Professor Plum in the Library, then who is the one doing it? No one else but you. So your responsible even if it means serving twenty years in a federal pound you in the ass prison. That's just how it is.
Expecting me to say something of course I would. Phiosophy is as much a hobby to me as people making vagina or dick shaped pottery is a hobby to them. I enjoy it just as much as they do. So why not?
What might be right for me, may not be right for some. I am still to meet anyone that gives a fuck about philosophy in my day to day but elements of it pervade all things human - you mention psychology - it comes from philosophy - but anyways; I'm a blue collar worker for life. So it's rare to find a "Wilson" like that guy from "Tool Time" to shoot the shit with while I'm working with them. But it's a fucking hobby just the same to do it on my off hours.
So freedom regarding my solution to the problem of freedom from the perspective of determism can easily be summed up.
Freedom is for those determined enough to have it.
Whatever freedom is? That is? As far as truth goes it really depends doesn't it. To me free-will is stupidity and ignorance. It's for the dolts of the world to think so. It's for the trent reznor to say "don't you fucking know what you are" and I say this without my intentions being sadistic or rude. It's unethical to manipulate people with ad hominems, but from a certain perspective all those things seem to honestly apply? It's how I feel and the way I see it and I don't think I'm exaggerating to say that I'd be pressed to say that any more than 10% of the worlds population would agree, since isn't it about 90% that believe in some sort of all-knowing God? And of those that don't believe in God fewer than that probably think determinism is true, so to all of those people I am fucking retarded! So what?
and......
That's why I agree with determinism as the correct mark twain.
- Dags
Quote from: DagsThe problem here is that the past is "set" it cannot actually be changed. Free-will concludes that the past could've been different? Determinism leads to the conclusion that after what actually happens happens then that is it.
Maybe it's your writing style, but I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.
As far as I understand it, Free Will means that your actions in the future, the choices you make, are up to you, and you alone. Your path through life was not already in place before you were born. The universe is not unfolding according to some great Plan as determined by some Intelligent Force (or Unintelligent Mechanism).
Going up a meta-level, i have a hypothetical: since we only view time in one direction, if the past
did change, the present would also change, and we in the present would have no idea the past was changed, for we would have no memory of it (Cf:
The Butterfly Effect, and many more clever sci-fi stories I can't think of right now). So, there is no way to prove that past
doesn't change, save for Occam's Razor.
Still, I want to know how you concluded that the act of freely choosing your actions leads to alteration of the past. Could you be more clear on that?
I thought he meant the past could have been different because of the actions of people in the past, myself.
Why does that sound like a meaningless statement, akin to "we could see in the infrared spectrum if our eyes were made differently"?
Quote from: eroticQuote from: DagsThe problem here is that the past is "set" it cannot actually be changed. Free-will concludes that the past could've been different? Determinism leads to the conclusion that after what actually happens happens then that is it.
Maybe it's your writing style, but I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.
That the past doesn't change seems a basic truth to me.
QuoteAs far as I understand it, Free Will means that your actions in the future, the choices you make, are up to you, and you alone. Your path through life was not already in place before you were born. The universe is not unfolding according to some great Plan as determined by some Intelligent Force (or Unintelligent Mechanism).
I would disagree. Not that all I'd agree with would be some opposite of everything your saying, just that this doesn't sound correct to me.
It almost sounds like believing that everything in the world has no effect on what a person does or doesn't do? If not for the "mechanism" then what?
QuoteGoing up a meta-level, i have a hypothetical: since we only view time in one direction, if the past did change, the present would also change, and we in the present would have no idea the past was changed, for we would have no memory of it (Cf: The Butterfly Effect, and many more clever sci-fi stories I can't think of right now). So, there is no way to prove that past doesn't change, save for Occam's Razor.
Would the present change if the past could be changed? I had a good thought written down about something similiar to this; here's the basic problem I have with the past changing.
The present moment is the only time we actually do anything.
Our concept of time is relevant; not concrete.
Think of the time you have lived as existing on a recording similiar to a VCR tape. Except in reality if you could rewind to some time say 10 years ago you would be absent and all other things would too because they are not left back in time they are in the present.
What does time require. Movement through space, we are moving right now about 64,000 miles per hour through our solar system. Where were you 10 years ago? Think your still there......
Maybe completely confusing, utterly dissapointing or somewhere in between. I think a good way of knowing the past doesn't change is to realize that it isn't there anymore.... just like the future is soon the past... and all any event can occur in is the present moment.
QuoteStill, I want to know how you concluded that the act of freely choosing your actions leads to alteration of the past. Could you be more clear on that?
Let's call this free will simplified - ,Äúthe ability to do or not do something,Äù
I'm saying given two seemingly equally but different options to choose from in a way that only one or the other can occur. Like my example of taking friday off of work.
You can't do both. So it's one or the other. To say either or the other can be done would require time splitting off in two different directions one being where you went to work the other where you took the day off.
Like I said maybe it's just a semantical hobgoblin. But whether or not you do one or the other I think it's more likely that it's determined; you might say it's a choice. Yada Yada, maybe it doesn't really matter.-heh But, something I've been looking at makes "me" think it does matter because I think whether someone does one or the other is determined.
hmm..... here's something to consider....
Know what determines the future and you can change it or just keep on thinking that all things happen without even the slightest cause. The choice is up to you! Sounds sparky doesn't it? Lights the flames of inquiry.-heh Anyways yeah I think from what I've gathered the whole debate free will and whatever else folks argue against it has been going on for 2 millenia at least, so best to keep that in mind while philosophizing about it. Thanks for asking maybe I explained something but explaining doesn't seem like something I'm determined enough to learn how to do it well at this time or I would've already. Plus the topic isn't a simple one. How to make chocolate chip cookies first you need a working universe.... You know? Anyways thanks for it I'm glad we met.
- Dags
note: this below was leftovers from where I was writing editing this reply.... I'll just leave it be then.
So in regards to the past changing; is a reflection that things could've turned out differently; yet if they could've then why didn't they; because it'd mean that given this or that day and time there was only one choice to be made; the one that was actually made; or the thing that actually happened.
Quote from: CainI thought he meant the past could have been different because of the actions of people in the past, myself.
No he meant the actions of the people in the past are in the past and that's it. Anything in the past is a done deal. Think about the future. Think about the past. He's basically saying it's always now.
- Dags
Quote from: DagsQuote from: CainI thought he meant the past could have been different because of the actions of people in the past, myself.
No he meant the actions of the people in the past are in the past and that's it. Anything in the past is a done deal. Think about the future. Think about the past. He's basically saying it's always now.
- Dags
Ah right. I had wondered why it was raised, but the previous post seems to have answered it for me.
Quote from: CainQuote from: DagsQuote from: CainI thought he meant the past could have been different because of the actions of people in the past, myself.
No he meant the actions of the people in the past are in the past and that's it. Anything in the past is a done deal. Think about the future. Think about the past. He's basically saying it's always now.
- Dags
Ah right. I had wondered why it was raised, but the previous post seems to have answered it for me.
Thanks. I aim to work on making more sense with this. But as far as this explaining thing goes it hasn't been easy yet.
Actually If It was simple I probably wouldn't bother with it.
That which is important we can never know for sure, and that which we know for sure isn't really important - Albert CamusI couldn't not quote that or I wouldn't have. To say otherwise means I could not have quoted it. Actually I did so it's false to say I could have not done that. Whether I came back and edited it out I still made that choice, the choice to undo it would be another choice. Free-will is sort of like saying without an additional action the quote would disappear. I don't believe this is the way things work, nor would I say with confidence that most other rational people would. Therefore I wouldn't think superstition was involved nor believe God or demons removed the quote. But someone with the ability to do so took it away. This is scientific thinking vs. superstitious thinking. The actual verses the superstition that it could have been different just the same?
But hey! It all depends. That's what determinism is in a nutshell.
- Dags
soundgarden
Dags, the past doesn't change, but that says nothing about free will. The past doesn't exist. All we have are memories and circumstantial evidence.
Quote from: fnordiscordiasoundgarden
This is correct. It was the song I was listening too when the rant came out. It only remotely deals with what the song was saying.
Quote from: Irreverend Death to Poultry, KSCDags, the past doesn't change, but that says nothing about free will. The past doesn't exist. All we have are memories and circumstantial evidence.
How the past not changing has something to do with free-will.
The past did exist
What was the future is now a part of what is referred to as the past.
Since the future inevitably becomes a part of the past; then the future once it happens can not " be different " at the moment it shifts from future to present to past.
Therefore to say I could have chosen differently is absurd. Therefore
free-will is incorrect.
That is why time has much to do with free-will; at least that aspect of it.
I could go as far to say that the future in a sense is "set" / this becomes problematic in regards to absolutes and "unexpected variables" or better yet lack of absolute knowledge of each variable and everyknown possible outcome. Prediction machinery. A deterministic universe does lead to many conclusions that are empirically testable; is the basis for the addage "nothing comes from nothing" and the conservation laws; "like causes producing like effects" and pervades our everyday lives; like keys being where they are placed; and my being able to post my sense and nonsense here and for you too. Was my being able to read that reply "striking and amazing" or another ordinary prediction. More likely very predictable.... unless something occured to change it.
Speaking of day to day having nothing to do with it? Per your saying the past doesn't exist has nothing to do with it; How old are you? Can you choose to be another age? Without changing the past? The is another thing about how the past affects now and the future and how time has a lot to do with what is determined for us, verses what we can exercise our volition over.
I explained.... Which is something I'm apparently determined to do or at least try to do.... As in either sucessfully or not that this does have something to do about free will.
You say you have "free-will" of what kind? ... because there are many different ways of understanding it. Like the religious version which is normally something I see christians use where God couldn't make a universe and loves us and not give us free-will to choose to love him; so if you don't choose to love God; then you burn in hell; so if you don't then you reject God by your own "choice" not to believe in God and love him. I say why don't you choose the real God and his name is "Zeus". They might laugh and say that's a made up God, that's myth. Where I say so you don't believe in Zeus for the same reason I can't "choose" to believe in your God. Actually it doesn't make any sense at that point, be it the invisible pink unicorn or whatever; why don't you believe in Santa Claus; leprachaun, invisible red dragons, invisible elephants; usually the same is said; That it's not the same; but as far as I can tell it is the same; and I can't believe this nonsense over that nonsense; speaking of ridding bullshit!
So what 'free-will' do you think is right? Maybe it's ordinary volition?
I am free to act in accordence with my own interest, abilities, desires, is volition; determinism doesn't say you don't do these things. Actually it specifically states that you "will" to do these things as you are your own casual agent regarding such things.
The only difference being the familiar use of the word "choice" where scientist would say "volition".
Same thing; hell in the sense of the term "volition" some plants have "volition" where they act "turn towards the sun" in their own interest. But I didn't read that anywhere just a thought...
Fate; Fatalism - Looked at it think it's wrong. Believing fatalism is like believing if you bury your keys in the backyard; those same keys will be in the same place as where you usually set them down or hang them. IOW No matter what the future is "set".
Compromise; Compatabilism - Haven't looked into it too deeply but from what I gather is a compromise, more deterministic; but clinging to the parts that make folks happy to believe. I am still in control of my life; but; things as basically caused.
Free-Will - I could've done this or that; I could've chosen differently; "The past is flexible" -
Determinism - Your sense of "choice" is illusory / Your volition is true "your own nature" / You are as "free" as your determined to be. The future can change but it depends. All effects have a cause.
Also in the realm of responsibility; I see no contradiction; You are the only you; what you do you are responsible for; you take the credit (even though all is given you ,determined) for what you do; you take the blame *(even though all is given you,determinied) for what you do.
*determinism is a two-way street - In the dichotomy of the criminal / and the prosecution - both are determined - so both are acting out of their own volition. No get out of jail free card - determinism isn't.
Also I wrote this for me more than anything else; you hit on this or that; I could also defend nihilism regarding certain aspects of it; and existentialism? I have done a bit of digging into that one also.
So I'll just end it here if you like. With my commentary. Because after this or that and the other; I'm getting a sense that you don't want to rationalize what your defending by saying "free-will"
I have looked over various things regarding this and think determinism is the truest of those I've looked into also the more I look into it the more I understand it; but I think it's widely misunderstood; namely in regards to thinking determinism has anything to do with "fate".
When someone says " fate sucks I swear it" ; it's the past they are more than likely considering; the past is "fate"; the future isn't. Where you place the keys is where they will be; absent any tomfoolery.-heh
- Dags
Nihilism is just a hobby.
Anyway all of the semantic nonsense about whether or not the past and future is real is just that, too much focus on either one is something that distracts us from the present-time, and while it is a good idea to consider past decisions and also to plan ahead a certain degree... it is very important that one remains flexible in decision making so as to account for the need to adapt to the unforeseen.
What I get from the rant is Hugh trying to berate both apathy and hopelessness at the same time, which is admirable in a way. If you look at a big enough picture we're all doomed anyway, well, I guess the picture doesnt have to that big, we're all doomed. DOOMED.
[really big letters][DOOMED[/really big letters]
[echo]doomed[/echo]
Very nice, Hugh, you pretty accurately described what I think. *puts on tin foil hat* no more of that.
Quote from: eroticAs usual, nice rant.
Another one of the pithy phrases people tend to forget is that of the Agnostic, "I don't know." Not enough people are comfortable in using this phrase with no fear or self-deprecation, and certainly without a sense of finality.
It's "I don't know, but I want to keep trying to find out," not "I don't know, so why bother?"
Mmmmmm, I love this LMNO. I loves it lots.
Quote from: eighteen buddha strikeNihilism is just a hobby.
Unless your getting paid I'd say so.
QuoteAnyway all of the semantic nonsense about whether or not the past and future is real is just that
Easy for you to say. Harder to avoid when you come from your past and need to consider the past when planning for the future.
Quotetoo much focus on either one is something that distracts us from the present-time
No one can leave the present-time. If they could then that'd be time traveling you know?
Quoteand while it is a good idea to consider past decisions and also to plan ahead a certain degree... it is very important that one remains flexible in decision making so as to account for the need to adapt to the unforeseen.
This sounds superstitious to me. Like maybe my arm will burst into flames while I'm typing this? That would be something unexpected.
QuoteWhat I get from the rant is Death to Poultry trying to berate both apathy and hopelessness at the same time, which is admirable in a way.
I read something different. It was all the stuff that's not free-will is stupid and your stupid to think otherwise? Then something about nihilism and existentialism being stupid too. Plus this part about determinism and free-will is not everything and who says it was? But since your bringing it up.
QuoteIf you look at a big enough picture we're all doomed anyway, well, I guess the picture doesnt have to that big, we're all doomed. DOOMED.
Doomed people see the world through there doomed goggles. Not much
different than God's people seeing the world through God goggles. I got
my determinism goggles on right now! To argue against rant 15X
Looking at the big picture I don't see a clockwork universe. I think there is a lot the we don't know; Newtonian physics is dead; Hell Einsteins relativity is that dead now? I still don't think quantum theories prove indeterminism because at that level things aren't exactly elegant more at strange physics.
Yet the
big picture the way I see it goes something like this; I just like to philosophize sometimes. I don't think it's a fatal waste of my time. I gave up being a christian; never heard of philosophy before then. I'm now an atheist. Something none of my family can make a claim to be. I have since turning my life away from Jesus increased my comfort in living ten fold. My comfort in dying 100 fold.
The big picture is what you think it is - what's important - to me may not be important to you - but you only have to look around to see that saying - somewhere there are 1 billion chinamen that couldn't care less? Someone know the quote? anyways - something like that.
I know I don't give a fuck neither. I know what's important to me and that's doing whatever I think is important but realizing that not everybody else and a lot of other people will think I'm fucking retarded for doing it.
Like screwing it up and saying existenialism instead of essentialism which I know nothing about at this time. Yet I went back and looked again since my reading of it is no longer fresh on my memory and I quote.
QuoteHuğh:::Despite all that, it is fanatical to assume that reality has or does not have any meaning. Don't be so dumb.
See to Huğh I'm dumb. Yet I'm using words almost like they "mean" something, the rants 15X of them now? What do they mean then? I would ask? Are they not supposed to mean anything?
Maybe the answer is soundgarden. I don't know you'd have to ask him.
The
big picture the big screen fliiping the channel to another station. THX. Surround. Something appears on the screen.....
You know waht - I had fun doing it - without changing.-
Dags
,./
Holy shit. As much as I loathe the concept of taking off my gloves and engaging it some good ol' fashioned sophism, it might be necessary. Even if it makes me feel dirty, and it does, sometimes things just have to come to blows.
Quote from: DagsQuote from: eighteen buddha strikeNihilism is just a hobby.
Unless your getting paid I'd say so.
Yes!
Quote from: DAGS!
Quote from: 18BuddhaAnyway all of the semantic nonsense about whether or not the past and future is real is just that
Easy for you to say. Harder to avoid when you come from your past and need to consider the past when planning for the future.
Wait a second...
So wait, I make a point about the intangible nature of the past and the future, and you completely derail me with some veiled accusation of being apathetic or irresponsible (IE: not considering, or caring, about past/future in decision making.)
Quote from: Dags?
Quote from: A lot of Buddhatoo much focus on either one is something that distracts us from the present-time
No one can leave the present-time. If they could then that'd be time traveling you know?
... and then you either completely miss my point, or try and shut down the fact that I had one by interupting a complete statement.
Quote from: Meand while it is a good idea to consider past decisions and also to plan ahead a certain degree... it is very important that one remains flexible in decision making so as to account for the need to adapt to the unforeseen.
Quote from: Dags.This sounds superstitious to me. Like maybe my arm will burst into flames while I'm typing this? That would be something unexpected
Ok, your technique here is almost apalling, however... there is a lot of logical uncertainty in life that cannot be completely forseen. I myself have lived on the streets, have broken several bones, have been hit by a car, and have seen two planes crash into each other. I'm not an expert, but yeah, I think that plans need to be flexible in order to account for stuff like that.
Quote from: 18What I get from the rant is Death to Poultry trying to berate both apathy and hopelessness at the same time, which is admirable in a way.
Quote from: DagsI read something different. It was all the stuff that's not free-will is stupid and your stupid to think otherwise? Then something about nihilism and existentialism being stupid too. Plus this part about determinism and free-will is not everything and who says it was? But since your bringing it up.
Well I guess we both got different ideas from the rant, thats great, score one for the fluidity of the english language. Incidentally, I'm not exactly trying to refute you, or contest your position... so there is no need to be territorial (or tyrannical) about what you think.
Quote from: 18If you look at a big enough picture we're all doomed anyway, well, I guess the picture doesnt have to that big, we're all doomed. DOOMED.
Quote from: Dags
Doomed people see the world through there doomed goggles. Not much
different than God's people seeing the world through God goggles. I got
my determinism goggles on right now! To argue against rant 15X
Looking at the big picture I don't see a clockwork universe. I think there is a lot the we don't know; Newtonian physics is dead; Hell Einsteins relativity is that dead now? I still don't think quantum theories prove indeterminism because at that level things aren't exactly elegant more at strange physics.
Yet the big picture the way I see it goes something like this; I just like to philosophize sometimes. I don't think it's a fatal waste of my time. I gave up being a christian; never heard of philosophy before then. I'm now an atheist. Something none of my family can make a claim to be. I have since turning my life away from Jesus increased my comfort in living ten fold. My comfort in dying 100 fold.
The big picture is what you think it is - what's important - to me may not be important to you - but you only have to look around to see that saying - somewhere there are 1 billion chinamen that couldn't care less? Someone know the quote? anyways - something like that.
I know I don't give a fuck neither. I know what's important to me and that's doing whatever I think is important but realizing that not everybody else and a lot of other people will think I'm fucking retarded for doing it.
Like screwing it up and saying existenialism instead of essentialism which I know nothing about at this time. Yet I went back and looked again since my reading of it is no longer fresh on my memory and I quote.
QuoteHuğh:::Despite all that, it is fanatical to assume that reality has or does not have any meaning. Don't be so dumb.
See to Huğh I'm dumb. Yet I'm using words almost like they "mean" something, the rants 15X of them now? What do they mean then? I would ask? Are they not supposed to mean anything?
Maybe the answer is soundgarden. I don't know you'd have to ask him.
The big picture the big screen fliiping the channel to another station. THX. Surround. Something appears on the screen.....
You know waht - I had fun doing it - without changing.
I guess I'll have to reiterate the fact that you are doomed. DOOMED.
DOOMED. I mean, just think of how gigantic Jupiter is compared to your entire pathetic human existence, and mine for that matter. Why, an object from the Kuiper belt could demolish our puny little chunk of rock that we call a planet and what could we do about it? Argue with it? Regardless, I tend to argue in the favor of EXTREME subjectivity in all things. I mean, I dont go as far as solipsism, but in terms of what can or cannot be proven I will fall back on that as a device to demonstrate that proof is inherantly subjective because all human interaction is based on uncertainty. You get me?
Determinism or no, I dont want anybody shoving their metaphysical penis down my throat, so lighten up a little bit.
And yes, I had fun.
Upon re-reading my response, there is something I feel that I meant to touch upon but did not do so to my liking. This would be my point regarding past/present/future.
You see, we live in the present and the present is the only thing we ever really experience. Memory is fallable to the point where we can have serious doubts to the things we've experienced in the past, assuming they do not stick out drastically in our memory, and even then we are going to be extremely shady about the details. We use the past as a tool to guide our decisions in terms of what was a good idea, and what probably will be a good idea. We use the future in a similar way, even though it is even more uncertain than our past, because we want to set goals for ourselves or to have a good idea of where we might end up and where we might be. My point, my entire point, is that both of those things are kind of shady... and that its not a bad idea to use the future/past as guiding points or to be aware of them (as a matter of fact, it is a good idea) however, we can never be absolutely sure how the myriad of elements of life that are beyond our control will affect us in the future, and we can never be entirely sure how accurate our perception of the past (or even, it could be argued, our perception of the world around us in the present) actually is.
Focusing too much on the past leads to living in the past, it leads to stagnation and regret. It leads to the inability to adapt due to these factors.
Focusing too much on the future, or rather what we think of the future, leads to an inability to adapt when the world doesnt magically fit with your plans. Its also a distraction from the present.
When I refute the existence of the past/future, realize that I am not speaking entirely literally. Hell, if you dont read in between the lines you just wont get me and thats the way it goes, but even if the past/future do not literally exist (which I will neither attempt to prove or disprove) realize that they can be useful tools for guidance, but make for poor crutches.
I think I get what you mean. They're useful, but if you base everything around it, then whatever advantages you get are lost.
Quote from: eighteen buddha strikeHoly shit. As much as I loathe the concept of taking off my gloves and engaging it some good ol' fashioned sophism, it might be necessary. Even if it makes me feel dirty, and it does, sometimes things just have to come to blows.
I just posted something else on sophism and if my reason for doing it was to change the other guys mind I would be wasting my time. It was for myself that I do so; If it helps out great but, It's honest to say this rarely do I ever get anything in return from the person I'm talking to, rarely; a new insight. It's this way for most folks though; you can't really be wide open or completely shut down; If your going to make a go of it.
Yes. I think that time is real. All of it that actually happens. Since I've no reason for thinking it's going to suddenly stop - why not act as if it won't / If it does stop then what difference would it make.Quote... and then you either completely miss my point, or try and shut down the fact that I had one by interupting a complete statement.
Yeah my bad. But it felt good for me. Apologies.
Quote from: Scary dog you got thereQuote from: Dags.This sounds superstitious to me. Like maybe my arm will burst into flames while I'm typing this? That would be something unexpected
Ok, your technique here is almost apalling, however... there is a lot of logical uncertainty in life that cannot be completely forseen. I myself have lived on the streets, have broken several bones, have been hit by a car, and have seen two planes crash into each other. I'm not an expert, but yeah, I think that plans need to be flexible in order to account for stuff like that.
Wow! You should write a book about it. Just watch it with Oprah 'cause she's onto checking that shit out now! I kid. I kid.
Your a survivor. I think I understand waht your saying.
QuoteWell I guess we both got different ideas from the rant, thats great, score one for the fluidity of the english language. Incidentally, I'm not exactly trying to refute you, or contest your position... so there is no need to be territorial (or tyrannical) about what you think.
Yeah, I was looking for what looked wrong about it to me.
QuoteI guess I'll have to reiterate the fact that you are doomed. DOOMED. DOOMED. I mean, just think of how gigantic Jupiter is compared to your entire pathetic human existence, and mine for that matter. Why, an object from the Kuiper belt could demolish our puny little chunk of rock that we call a planet and what could we do about it? Argue with it? Regardless, I tend to argue in the favor of EXTREME subjectivity in all things. I mean, I dont go as far as solipsism, but in terms of what can or cannot be proven I will fall back on that as a device to demonstrate that proof is inherantly subjective because all human interaction is based on uncertainty. You get me?
Ha! Doomed goggles. It's not any kind of fact. Is a rabbits life pathetic through doomed goggles? Can you find not one single person who's life isn't/wasn't/or will be pathetic through your doomed goggles? Take them off man. Life is sweet!-heh
I mean really I don't give a blip about how big Jupiter makes me small in comparison I mean you compare Jupiter to the value of a human life? It's unimportant to me. Like the chinese don't give a rat's arse about what I'm saying right now. A lot of them and throw in most of the population of the world in not the entire population of the planet for that matter either don't care, don't know, and/or wouldn't give a damn or would give a damn about what I'm saying. Should I care? Should I bottle up what I'm thinking inside, cower in a corner and thiink the end is nigh' . Nah. Nah. Nah. Fuck that. I knew something was wrong with those goggles as soon as I put them on.
You seem to think I should wear them. You seem to think so. Why? I might not comment on it or wahtever but if you take the time to write it or anything else on this and that or the other I'll take the time to read it.
Hmm... Goggles. For some reason the "grid" comes to mind. Beer goggles. Star Wars the empire strikes back. Zippo lighters.
QuoteDeterminism or no, I dont want anybody shoving their metaphysical penis down my throat, so lighten up a little bit.
That's not a penis and it's offered for free; reject it / take it / ignore it / it's up to you entirely. I don't mean to offend. Honest.
And yes, I had fun.[/quote]
8)
Bring it on then. I have patches and duct tape all over. I fell to my death
sixteen years ago. I've been shot, stabbed, beaten, oh no... wait a
minute... Well I've watched a lot of movies... -heh I did have to shovel
maggots one time I don't remember what I was being punished for though.
Anyways. If nothing else; I'm glad we met.
Have a super day and you deserve it for all that typing.
For all my typing lately I think I'm going to take a few months off from all of this again. I've deserved that and those that don't want to hear it deserve there break from it too! -heh
Plus my post count is getting embarassingly high seeing as I consider a high post count - in consideration of the time of course - a good indicator of either a messiah complex or some sort of dependence... - heh But that's just me.
It's easier to stay out than to get out. - Mark TwainI beg to disagree with Twain but even dead he's still the fuckin' man. My will shall preveil though with enough determination or I'll just keep on posting like I've been doing for a few weeks again....
asdf
jkl;
One of y'all posted asking if a person could change how old s/he was.
If you only consider "old" to be something derived from calendar markings, then my serious answer is somewhere between "no" and "yes, but holy crap I can't imagine it would matter enough to someone that they'd do everything it would take to succeed". (The smartass answer being "Sure you can - teenagers do it all the time to buy booze and smokes!") The calendar, after all, is a human construct - created and adopted so folks can more easily and accurately communicate the relative length of time that's elapsed between events. Either you choose to keep working within the existing construct for the sake of that ease in communication (in which case the answer is "no"), or you choose to fabricate your own construct and then deal with the ramifications of that choice when attempting to communicate your ideas of time passage to other humans. (Hacking in to every database which keeps a file on you and altering the calendar dates therein would IMO fall under the latter.)
The other option I see is to consider "old" to be an inverse function of your vitality. I have to assume the aforementioned poster was dismissing this option out of hand, because taking this option makes your age very malleable indeed. There's a reason grocery and convenience stores set their "look younger than" carding ages at 30 or sometimes 35.
I dont like to argue about stuff.
I like my DOOM goggles.
Just because I'm wearing goggles doesnt mean you're not DOOMED.
I am the Happy Go-Lucky Evil.
Dear Dags,
If understanding and comprehension are your goal, please to use generally accepted practices of grammar and syntax, as well as the Premise/evidence/conclusion form of paragraph structure.
LMNO
-Can no longer be bothered trying to decipher said gobbledygook.
Agreed. He reads like JP Fartre.
Only less coherent.
I realized I had spent over 1000 words just to clarify his opening statement before i realized I shouldn't be doing his job for him.
Quote from: eighteen buddha strike
Nihilism is just a hobby.
This is the best slogan yet.
Quote from: Irreverend Death to Poultry, KSCQuote from: eighteen buddha strike
Nihilism is just a hobby.
This is the best slogan yet.
Thanks!
I'm into it.
Quote from: eighteen buddha strikeQuote from: Irreverend Death to Poultry, KSCQuote from: eighteen buddha strike
Nihilism is just a hobby.
This is the best slogan yet.
Thanks!
I'm into it.
We must make this into a bumper sticker or shirt.
It was motto of Salazore.
You should write an account of what it was like back before the US conquest.
US never conquested Salazore. Most Americans have never heard of Salazore. The swines.
Quote from: Enrico SalazarUS never conquested Salazore. Most Americans have never heard of Salazore. The swines.
So that secret invasion force that defeated the Salazorean Swim Team never happened?