is utter BULLSHIT.
the tendency among discordians to try to validate everyone and everything is not only incredibly annoying, but a major reason why we tend to spend all of our time talking and bitching on the intarweb and not going out into the real world and trying to improve our collective situation.
after all, if everyone's opinion is valid, and there are no wrong answers, then GWB was perfectly justified in invading Iraq, there's no need to try to implement economic reforms, gerrymandering of congressional districts and rampant abuse of campaign finance laws are nothing to worry about, you really don't NEED your civil liberties, and the exponentially-increasing income gap and resulting downward socio-economic mobility of the middle class will not cause massive upheaval and a paradigm shift in our standard of living.
oh, and your girlfriend's mustache doesn't make her any less attractive.
edit: and for anyone who wants to respond with something along the lines of "that's YOUR problem, you stupid American", please tell me what you think the standard of living in YOUR country will be like after America turns into a continent-spanning re-enactment of "Escape From New York"
ECH,
just decided that relativism is a crock of shit
IAWTCS.
Best thing that's been said in this shithole in ages.
thanks. that was just a little poomplet. the real hateshittery will be returning soon.
Quote from: East Coast Hustlethanks. that was just a little poomplet. the real hateshittery will be returning soon.
Not from me, it won't.
I have to warn you against this sort of thing, dude. Take it for what it is worth.
Its especially funny when you think about where it came from. Hassan ibn al-Sabbah, the founder of the Assassins. The phrase was used as a motto for them, but only to inspire critical thinking and break away religious conditioning, as part of their training. And even in that system the final revelation of the highest degree was that action was all that mattered, as all beliefs are false.
Of course, those Assassins who jumped to their death on the command of Sabbah found out soon enough there were some Universal truths one didnt need to believe in to be true, like jmping off a castle may kill you.
Quote from: East Coast Hustlemassive upheaval
stop teasing
Quote from: East Coast Hustleis utter BULLSHIT.
the tendency among discordians to try to validate everyone and everything is not only incredibly annoying, but a major reason why we tend to spend all of our time talking and bitching on the intarweb and not going out into the real world and trying to improve our collective situation.
after all, if everyone's opinion is valid, and there are no wrong answers, then GWB was perfectly justified in invading Iraq, there's no need to try to implement economic reforms, gerrymandering of congressional districts and rampant abuse of campaign finance laws are nothing to worry about, you really don't NEED your civil liberties, and the exponentially-increasing income gap and resulting downward socio-economic mobility of the middle class will not cause massive upheaval and a paradigm shift in our standard of living.
oh, and your girlfriend's mustache doesn't make her any less attractive.
edit: and for anyone who wants to respond with something along the lines of "that's YOUR problem, you stupid American", please tell me what you think the standard of living in YOUR country will be like after America turns into a continent-spanning re-enactment of "Escape From New York"
ECH,
just decided that relativism is a crock of shit
Mind if I yoink for the book?
Quote from: East Coast Hustleis utter BULLSHIT.
ECH,
just decided that relativism is a crock of shit
Only just now? Kind of a late bloomer, are we?
Quote from: Rabid Badger of GodQuote from: East Coast Hustleis utter BULLSHIT.
ECH,
just decided that relativism is a crock of shit
Only just now? Kind of a late bloomer, are we?
He'll be quoting Ayn Rand within a week.
(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/gay.gif)
(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/lol.gif)(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/fag.gif)
Quote from: Baron von Hoopla
Mind if I yoink for the book?
please do.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Rabid Badger of GodQuote from: East Coast Hustleis utter BULLSHIT.
ECH,
just decided that relativism is a crock of shit
Only just now? Kind of a late bloomer, are we?
He'll be quoting Ayn Rand within a week.
(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/gay.gif)
(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/lol.gif)(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/fag.gif)
Hrrm, you said that and I was going to go find some Ayd Rand quote to post to annoy you. But, they're all so fucking retarded, I deserve to be whipped, beaten, and have salt rubbed into my wounds for even thinking of it.
Please, someone put me into someone elses misery, NOW.
Didnt you used to have a Rand quote in your sig?
Quote from: CainDidnt you used to have a Rand quote in your sig?
Yes, but I'd only ever read that one until today.
And, I deserve more beatings for it. Alot more.
Please forgive me for subjecting you to...her.
Eww.
:(
Atlas cried.
I'm a grown-ass-man.
I do what I want.
Quote from: ECH, BISH!
oh, and your girlfriend's mustache doesn't make her any less attractive.
I fuck jewish girls. Just sayin.
(not to be insensitive, I actually respect woman, I'm just crazy drunk.)
Oh, and wops, I dig hair.
O_o
Quote from: MC Bigfoot!
edit: and for anyone who wants to respond with something along the lines of "that's YOUR problem, you stupid American", please tell me what you think the standard of living in YOUR country will be like after America turns into a continent-spanning re-enactment of "Escape From New York"
Its called the dynastic cycle. We're born into this shit, and its only going to get worse. YOU should be able to deal with this better than most people, so dont be surprised if I show up sometime during the apocalypse and apply for membership to your crew. IF that happens, I promise that I will have bloodstained the BloodHammer. I have street cred.
We discordians...
Will kill for food.
IF the shit ever actually DOES go down in such dramatic fashion (something I am beginning to suspect will, sadly, never happen), you and your bloody hammer will be most welcome.
ECH,
will be mailing your CDs on Friday, by the way
I said this in one of the other forums you posted this at, but, as I see it, relativism isn't the hypothesis that all things are ok, but that the either/or dichotomy doesn't really exist. Things are a mix of good/bad/useful/not useful, usually according to a subjective perception. It's up to the indiviual to discover what the mix is, and what it means to them, and act appropriately.
Also, the line was "Nothing is true; everything is permitted." Not the other way around.
Everyone's opinion is valid at least to them. After it leaves their brain, it's pretty much fair game to be analyzed and attacked at will. I can understand why the neo-cons think the way they do (a little), but that doesn't mean I agree with them, or accept their actions as valid.
now you're applying relativism to your assessment of my piece on relativism.
ECH,
pretty sure that's the logical equivalent of a double-negative
Ah, it's all relative anyway.
Quote from: eroticI said this in one of the other forums you posted this at, but, as I see it, relativism isn't the hypothesis that all things are ok, but that the either/or dichotomy doesn't really exist. Things are a mix of good/bad/useful/not useful, usually according to a subjective perception. It's up to the indiviual to discover what the mix is, and what it means to them, and act appropriately.
Har, har.
In my experience, pretty much all proponents of relativism really do think everything is okay.
Quote from: Rabid Badger of GodQuote from: eroticI said this in one of the other forums you posted this at, but, as I see it, relativism isn't the hypothesis that all things are ok, but that the either/or dichotomy doesn't really exist. Things are a mix of good/bad/useful/not useful, usually according to a subjective perception. It's up to the indiviual to discover what the mix is, and what it means to them, and act appropriately.
Har, har.
In my experience, pretty much all proponents of relativism really do think everything is okay.
Ok in what sense?
Badger, maybe we're using the term in two different ways... or maybe the term is being misued by fluff bunnies.
Relativism seems to mean that a thing is not completely good, or completely bad, but a blend of the two, depending on the point of view, or how far down the line you want to look. Just because a mostly bad thing has a few good points to it doesn't mean that it's "equal" to a mostly good thing with some bad points.
For example, Natural Ice beer tastes like shit (bad), but gets you drunk (good), but gives you the shits and a nasty hangover (bad++), but is cheap (good).
That doesn't make it equal to Balvenie 21-year portwood scotch which tastes wonderful (good +++), but is very expensive (bad).
Who are these people who think everything is good, just because nothing is 100% bad?
My idea of (moral) relativism would be the view that there are no universal good/bads, but certain sets of good/bads exist in each context. E.g. death penalty is good in one country, but evil in another country.
To me, that sounds pretty silly when it's used as an ontological moral theory. And outside of that it doesn't seem to have much meaning.
Perhaps nihilism is closer to what I Sabbah was talking about?
I do find that most people apply moral relativism to other people, and continue blindly believing that their moral stance is, of course, the right one.
Which is bullshit. Only Fred knows the difference between right & wrong.
Quote from: eroticBadger, maybe we're using the term in two different ways... or maybe the term is being misued by fluff bunnies.
Relativism seems to mean that a thing is not completely good, or completely bad, but a blend of the two, depending on the point of view, or how far down the line you want to look. Just because a mostly bad thing has a few good points to it doesn't mean that it's "equal" to a mostly good thing with some bad points.
For example, Natural Ice beer tastes like shit (bad), but gets you drunk (good), but gives you the shits and a nasty hangover (bad++), but is cheap (good).
That doesn't make it equal to Balvenie 21-year portwood scotch which tastes wonderful (good +++), but is very expensive (bad).
Who are these people who think everything is good, just because nothing is 100% bad?
even these scenarios are lacking
judgments of 'good' and 'bad' all eventually lead back to some common denominator
taste
drunkenness
cost
these are all suggestive of something a hell of a lot bigger than the isolated scenarios people run themselves into
relativism is an extension of ignorance
opinions are an extension of ignorance
its possible that 'everything is permitted' is your reason to not hesitate when you are hungry and you see somebody carrying around more than he can eat
even tho it has been suggested to you that certain acts are 'not permitted'
can you imagine a REAL society that placed value on everybodys opinion?
can you imagine living in a place and waiting for input from 6.5 billion people before doing anything?
opinions are dirt
Quoterelativism is an extension of ignorance
opinions are an extension of ignorance
Yes. But let me repeat, I don't mean "I don't know, so fuck it," I mean "I don't know, but I want to find out."
Quotecan you imagine a REAL society that placed value on everybodys opinion?
But that's not what I'm saying. Your opinion only matters to
you. There's no reason I should care about your opinion, unless it has something to do with me, whether I'm curious about it, or if your opinion happens to be that killing my entire family would be a good idea.
Quote from: erotic
But that's not what I'm saying. Your opinion only matters to you. There's no reason I should care about your opinion, unless it has something to do with me, whether I'm curious about it, or if your opinion happens to be that killing my entire family would be a good idea.
this is a very good point
by virtue of this
i motion for an end to all opinions
Well, that's one opinion....
i wonder what a person would have to do to get rid of their opinions
that seems to be another line between sane and insane
can you imagine that?
to suggest that nothing that comes out of your mouth is an opinion?
Quote from: LHXcan you imagine that?
to suggest that nothing that comes out of your mouth is an opinion?
Yes.
It sounds like every 'expert' I've ever heard, be it Xtian, Muslim, Scientist, Feminist, Political Analyst, Sports Announcer, Celebrity, or some of our experts around here.
you would think that experts would find it difficult to talk with all the shit in their mouths
and the dryness in their brains
but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOo
good ol technology
Exactly.
With the invention of the innernets EVERYONE is a fucking genius.
Quote from: Baron von HooplaExactly.
With the invention of the innernets EVERYONE is a fucking genius.
and yet so few are entertaining
i motion that one of the qualities of 'genius' is 'ability to entertain'
Quote from: LHXcan you imagine that?
to suggest that nothing that comes out of your mouth is an opinion?
Um.. that would be Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, etc etc...
Quote from: East Coast Hustleis utter BULLSHIT.
the tendency among discordians to try to validate everyone and everything is not only incredibly annoying, but a major reason why we tend to spend all of our time talking and bitching on the intarweb and not going out into the real world and trying to improve our collective situation.
after all, if everyone's opinion is valid, and there are no wrong answers, then GWB was perfectly justified in invading Iraq, there's no need to try to implement economic reforms, gerrymandering of congressional districts and rampant abuse of campaign finance laws are nothing to worry about, you really don't NEED your civil liberties, and the exponentially-increasing income gap and resulting downward socio-economic mobility of the middle class will not cause massive upheaval and a paradigm shift in our standard of living.
oh, and your girlfriend's mustache doesn't make her any less attractive.
edit: and for anyone who wants to respond with something along the lines of "that's YOUR problem, you stupid American", please tell me what you think the standard of living in YOUR country will be like after America turns into a continent-spanning re-enactment of "Escape From New York"
ECH,
just decided that relativism is a crock of shit
bump.
Lies! All lies! They'll eat you in your sleep, just because they can.
Quote from: B23.77Lies! All lies! They'll eat you in your sleep, just because they can.
Who. are. you?!
No! You made me screw up my 1111th post. 1111! It was 1111! I'm B23.77, just another victim of dysfunction junction.
W.h.o. are yew?
Quote from: B23.77W.h.o. are yew?
I was just asking cause you got over a thousand posts and I don't recall a name like yours.
You're the same poster as Ben, aren't you? Or have I got it mixed up again?
Oh. I haven't posted under this moniker in a long time. The place needs a tune-up and ignorance is my way of fixing things.
Quote from: B23.77Oh. I haven't posted under this moniker in a long time. The place needs a tune-up and ignorance is my way of fixing things.
Dude, look in Princ. Discu. We're undergoing a renaisance here. No tuneup needed.
Quote from: CainYou're the same poster as Ben, aren't you? Or have I got it mixed up again?
Yep, I was Bencalypse, Schizzy, and Uncle Spam. Thought I'd rev up B23.77 again.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: B23.77Oh. I haven't posted under this moniker in a long time. The place needs a tune-up and ignorance is my way of fixing things.
Dude, look in Princ. Discu. We're undergoing a renaisance here. No tuneup needed.
Oh okay. I'll just STFU up then, unless I don't. I'm gettin' drunk tonight home alone, so thought I'd do a drive by, unless I don't.
Quote from: B23.77Quote from: CainYou're the same poster as Ben, aren't you? Or have I got it mixed up again?
Yep, I was Bencalypse, Schizzy, and Uncle Spam. Thought I'd rev up B23.77 again.
I thought this was one of yours, but wasn't certain. Didnt know about Uncle Spam either.
I love jew!
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: B23.77Oh. I haven't posted under this moniker in a long time. The place needs a tune-up and ignorance is my way of fixing things.
Dude, look in Princ. Discu. We're undergoing a renaisance here. No tuneup needed.
Oh and I was speaking universally besides, not specifically.
Quote from: East Coast HustleQuote from: East Coast Hustleis utter BULLSHIT.
the tendency among discordians to try to validate everyone and everything is not only incredibly annoying, but a major reason why we tend to spend all of our time talking and bitching on the intarweb and not going out into the real world and trying to improve our collective situation.
after all, if everyone's opinion is valid, and there are no wrong answers, then GWB was perfectly justified in invading Iraq, there's no need to try to implement economic reforms, gerrymandering of congressional districts and rampant abuse of campaign finance laws are nothing to worry about, you really don't NEED your civil liberties, and the exponentially-increasing income gap and resulting downward socio-economic mobility of the middle class will not cause massive upheaval and a paradigm shift in our standard of living.
oh, and your girlfriend's mustache doesn't make her any less attractive.
edit: and for anyone who wants to respond with something along the lines of "that's YOUR problem, you stupid American", please tell me what you think the standard of living in YOUR country will be like after America turns into a continent-spanning re-enactment of "Escape From New York"
ECH,
just decided that relativism is a crock of shit
bump.
[re-jack]
I think my rebuttal has clarified somewhat. You seem to be conflating moral relativity to moral equivalence. That is, nothing is All Good or All Bad, but at the same time, Mostly Good is not the same as Mostly Bad.
Sorry to interrupt the thread jack.
I was gonna avoid this one, but fuck it.
Relatvism is applied when and how people feel like it, we all do it.
The important thing is to know where to draw the line.
Quote from: WolfpoetI was gonna avoid this one, but fuck it.
Relatvism is applied when and how people feel like it, we all do it.
The important thing is to know where to draw the line.
Whats that, Mr. Relative Absolutist?
8)
Relative Absolutivism: The Discordian Philosophy of Tomorrow?
and now to go to my mind numbingly depressing job for five hours... maybe I should get hold of some pills of some kind to help me through!
Quote from: WolfpoetI was gonna avoid this one, but fuck it.
Relatvism is applied when and how people feel like it, we all do it.
The important thing is to know where to draw the line.
Hell, let's get into it.
What's this line you're talking about?
Quote from: Kai WrenRelative Absolutivism: The Discordian Philosophy of Tomorrow?
and now to go to my mind numbingly depressing job for five hours... maybe I should get hold of some pills of some kind to help me through!
More like 'relative absolutivism: a way to get away with hypocricy'. 8)
And don't take the pills. Thats what They(tm) want you to do.
does this have anything to do with opinions?
Hard to define in any way that won't get jumped on by the vultures, but I'll try.
ECH posted that he defined relativism as the ability to justify almost anything. Something he considers a flaw in Discordianism.
Which taken to extremes is very true.
Hence drawing the line.
I define myself as an absolutist because I do believe in absolutes. Only way to stay sane, can't go around believeing every damn thing your told.
This is not to say I'm narrowminded. I'd of never even considered discordianism if I was.
When an absolute I hold to be true is succesfully challenged by reasoned debate and or evidence then I change it. A constant process of evolving my beliefs.
Everybody engages in relativism to some degree same way everybody engages in absolutism. You can debate it till the cows come home but in the end it relies on personal interpretation.
Unless of course you want to dictate to everybody what YOU consider is right/wrong. I find if you get enough people of a similar mindset together you arrive at a general consensus of opinion.
Quote from: WolfpoetHard to define in any way that won't get jumped on by the vultures, but I'll try.
ECH posted that he defined relativism as the ability to justify almost anything. Something he considers a flaw in Discordianism.
Which taken to extremes is very true.
Hence drawing the line.
I define myself as an absolutist because I do believe in absolutes. Only way to stay sane, can't go around believeing every damn thing your told.
This is not to say I'm narrowminded. I'd of never even considered discordianism if I was.
When an absolute I hold to be true is succesfully challenged by reasoned debate and or evidence then I change it. A constant process of evolving my beliefs.
Everybody engages in relativism to some degree same way everybody engages in absolutism. You can debate it till the cows come home but in the end it relies on personal interpretation.
Unless of course you want to dictate to everybody what YOU consider is right/wrong. I find if you get enough people of a similar mindset together you arrive at a general consensus of opinion.
in the
end it relies on personal interpretation?
dont you mean
up until the end it relies on personal interpretation?
we all hold different maps of the same territory
its the only thing that really makes any 2 people different
seems to me that 'at the end' we get to see where our maps were lacking
i dont see how it is of any benefit to define yourself as an 'absolutist'
also
why waste time 'believing' things when you can just say that you are pursuing truths?
do you
believe in absolutes?
or do you
know there are absolutes?
I don't believe in truths.
One man's truth is another man's lie.
QuoteI define myself as an absolutist because I do believe in absolutes. Only way to stay sane, can't go around believeing every damn thing your told.
1. Please to be submitting a list of what you consider to be an Absolute.
2. You seem not to be understanding Relaltivism. A statement is not 100% true, nor is it 100% false, but a blend of the two. In addition, a statement can be indeterminate, meaningless, a game rule, subjective, objective, or a blend of all of them. "Believeing everything you're told" is not Relativism, it's Absolutism: everything you're toldis 100% True.
Quote from: WolfpoetI don't believe in truths.
One man's truth is another man's lie.
what about the truth?
the one that isnt mine?
Absolutes:
The sky is Blue
The Grass is Green
I will die
Quote from: WolfpoetAbsolutes:
The sky is Blue
The Grass is Green
I will die
Except for the fact that the symbolized colors green and blue are human concepts for general wavelengths of light, while light is on a continuous spectrum. And words are imperfect symbols of concepts.
Quote from: WolfpoetAbsolutes:
I will die
the oldest trick in the book
Arguing for arguments sake is not enlightenment.
Quote from: WolfpoetArguing for arguments sake is not enlightenment.
neither are pithy one-liners
The only absolutes are the ones YOU choose to make so. Just sayin'.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeThe only absolutes are the ones YOU choose to make so. Just sayin'.
At no point have I ever tried to deny that statement
Quote from: WolfpoetAbsolutes:
The sky is Blue
The Grass is Green
I will die
1. Nightime; sunset; sunrise.
2. Drought; winter; herbicide.
3. Maybe; modern science is really an amazing thing.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeThe only absolutes are the ones YOU choose to make so. Just sayin'.
until the end
Quote from: LHXQuote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeThe only absolutes are the ones YOU choose to make so. Just sayin'.
until the end
until the end of time.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: LHXQuote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeThe only absolutes are the ones YOU choose to make so. Just sayin'.
until the end
until the end of time.
Time is relative.
Quote from: LMNOQuote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: LHXQuote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeThe only absolutes are the ones YOU choose to make so. Just sayin'.
until the end
until the end of time.
Time is relative.
exactly.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeQuote from: LHXQuote from: Buddhist_Monk_WannabeThe only absolutes are the ones YOU choose to make so. Just sayin'.
until the end
until the end of time.
no disagreement here
for this reason -
Quote from: LMNO
Time is relative.
Quote from: Buddhist_Monk_Wannabe
exactly.
precisely
Quote from: LMNOQuote from: WolfpoetAbsolutes:
The sky is Blue
The Grass is Green
I will die
1. Nightime; sunset; sunrise.
2. Drought; winter; herbicide.
3. Maybe; modern science is really an amazing thing.
Reminder to Wolf-o-wits.
Absolutes:
1. W carries an aborted fetus in his head.
2. It's all in your head.
3. Einstein was nuts.
BTW, I like ECH's original topic. Good for disillusionment. Magic has its uses, but only to a point. 'Tis true, and no you may not.
Quoteis utter BULLSHIT.
the tendency among discordians to try to validate everyone and everything is not only incredibly annoying, but a major reason why we tend to spend all of our time talking and bitching on the intarweb and not going out into the real world and trying to improve our collective situation.
after all, if everyone's opinion is valid, and there are no wrong answers, then GWB was perfectly justified in invading Iraq, there's no need to try to implement economic reforms, gerrymandering of congressional districts and rampant abuse of campaign finance laws are nothing to worry about, you really don't NEED your civil liberties, and the exponentially-increasing income gap and resulting downward socio-economic mobility of the middle class will not cause massive upheaval and a paradigm shift in our standard of living.
oh, and your girlfriend's mustache doesn't make her any less attractive.
edit: and for anyone who wants to respond with something along the lines of "that's YOUR problem, you stupid American", please tell me what you think the standard of living in YOUR country will be like after America turns into a continent-spanning re-enactment of "Escape From New York"
ECH,
just decided that relativism is a crock of shit
bump!
I want to point out (again) that the real quote is "nothing is forbidden, everything is permitted" and likely had a moral and not metaphysical undertone.
Quote from: LMNO on February 13, 2006, 07:59:57 PM
I do find that most people apply moral relativism to other people, and continue blindly believing that their moral stance is, of course, the right one.
Which is bullshit.  Only Fred knows the difference between right & wrong.
Quotebump.