Remember growing up?
Maybe you're still doing it now.
I remember talking to my parents whilst growing up. Jaded people who had battled, tripped, saved people from drug addictions, resisted a communist governement, left family behind and then settled into a cozy middle class existance. I remember hearing their proclamation of what was to come for me:
"You can cling on to your ideals when you're young, but when real life and responsibility come around you'll forget them, everybody does."
Well I refuse.
I refuse to put on a suit, paint my face on and shut my brain off.
And I refuse to accept that the people snearing at "idealists" as being just, well "idealists" know what they're talking about. Where would the world be without idealists? Where would we all be if some of us weren't willing to go mad fighting for the truth, for good, for empathy, for humanity, for the planet that makes our existance even possible.
Even if it is a Don Quixote run at the windmills, I'd rather know I fought than wake up one day to the realization that when you put your head in the sand you cut off your own air supply.
Sorry, I am too jaded and you cannot save or persuade me otherwise. Good rant though, even though I disagree.
I don't know Cain, I think if there was no idealist in you at all you won't give a shit what happened to the UK political scene.
I do it because it gives me great pleasure to fuck shit up. And I like to be able to do what I want. Thats not really political.
Quote from: Toots
I refuse to put on a suit, paint my face on and shut my brain off.
Give it time. EVERYBODY has their price.
Quote from: CainI do it because it gives me great pleasure to fuck shit up. And I like to be able to do what I want. Thats not really political.
Fair enough.
As long as the outcome is the same I guess it doesn't matter much why you do it.
I like to fuck shit up too. My motivation is just slightly different I guess. I just get pissed off and refuse to listen to reason. Why should I?
Reason says I should just sit down and be quiet because nothing we do matters anyway. That's a boring and depressing way to live and the world is depressing enough as it is.
It makes me feel better to know that I'll at least be fighting on the right side, even though it may be the losing side. And I refuse to admitt defeat until the very last trace of the fight goes out of the great beast that is homo sapiens.
Quote from: CainI do it because it gives me great pleasure to fuck shit up. And I like to be able to do what I want. Thats not really political.
Troof. I just like to knock stuff over.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: Toots
I refuse to put on a suit, paint my face on and shut my brain off.
Give it time. EVERYBODY has their price.
Not me. For realz.
I am now on an active track to give up a very lucrative job to work for peanuts doing what I believe in.
Fuck that noise. My happiness is worth more to me than my kids being able to spend my money after I die.
Quote from: The Good Reverend RogerQuote from: CainI do it because it gives me great pleasure to fuck shit up. And I like to be able to do what I want. Thats not really political.
Troof. I just like to knock stuff over.
As long as you're knocking the right stuff over who cares what the motivation is anyway?
I think this is essentially the biggest problem with people who are idealistic. They get hung up on one idea and spend all of their energy trying to convince everyone else to think just like them.
IMO as long as we're working towards the same end what drives us to do it is unimportant.
<--is an idealist but not a militant fool
I'm finding it increasingly hard to care which side its for too, though. All actions currently will aid and abet a backlash, or just an ever greater crackdown. Imposition of order = escalation of disorder etc...
you're making bold assumption there, Toots.
how do you know that your "side" is the "right" one?
Quote from: East Coast Hustleyou're making bold assumption there, Toots.
how do you know that your "side" is the "right" one?
I don't see this as a hard thing to figure out in most instances.
Big corporations poisoning the planet, running sweat shops, supporting dictatorships = wrong IMO.
Government killing millions of people because they refuse to subscribe to the current establishment = same.
I don't buy that "nothing is true and everything is permissable" btw. Some things are true. Some things are not permissable.
Common sense helps pick them out most of the time.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I just wanted to know how YOU make those sorts of value judgements.
ECH,
thinks that total altruism is total bullshit even if your heart is in the right place
ECH,
aslo thinks that's a rather unfortunate thing, but probably irreversible on a large scale
ECH I hope my answer didn't come off snarky cause that's not how it was meant.
I really have been thinking a lot about this lately though. I think our problem is that whatever shit is going on in the world that's wrong seems totally huge and we seem pretty tiny in comparison. Then most of us throw in the question of how do I know if what I think is right is right. And I think that's how people who think some things should not be happening get stuck doing nothing.
That plus laziness.
And I totally accept that some of us, most of us actually, are content doing nothing and thinking about nothing but their own comfort. But I find so many people who know better, who are aware and still don't do anything because a) they are too jaded by now to try b) they'd rather talk than have to do.
But I think we all know that the "wrong" things/people/ideas are so. Just like the CEO of a farm concern dumping pig piss and shit into the river and poisoning it knows that it's wrong to do it. They might still do it anyway, but I'm pretty sure they know.
Know what I mean?
No, they really dont care. You want to know about the complete amorality of our leaders? Kissinger and Rumsfeld. And it will take bastards who think like them, only better and on our side, to be able to beat them.
This is why I am trying to convince a local marketing company that promotes ethical products and NGOs to start a PR arm.
I think things can only change by using the very system to fuck itself over.
The business lobby has the ear of the govnmt? We need a BETTER lobby group.
Spin doctors covering up truth and skewing media reporting? We need better spin doctors to skew media reporting right back the other way.
I don't think the only way to promote beliefs and ideals is through chaining yourself to a tree.
There is something Michael Moore says in "The Corporation" that puts it well.
He says:
"The reason major studios are willing to put out my movies even though those movies are trying to take down the corporations that support the studios is that there is a market for my films. Capitalism doesn't have any beliefs at all, you can exploit that." (not 100 % exact wording I'm writing it from memory)
We need money. We need media exposure. We need people on the inside who can tell us things which will allow us to politically nail the sons of bitches to the walls before they do it to us, because thats exactly what they will want to do if you get the first two.
I was an idealist. Back in the 60s. Organized anti-war rallies, marched on
Washington, broke windows, got teargassed, etc. Thought I was making a difference.
But when I got higher up in the anti-war organizations, I realize that
the people at the top were just expoliting the people below for their own
political gain, be it recruiting for their socialist cabal, or building a base
from which to run for office as a Democrat.
So for years I just plodded along, making a living, hauranging my friends
with my anarchist bullshit (they laughed and thought I was humorous.)
Recently I decided that I can make a difference, by influencing other
people. Become a writer I said to myself. Infiltrate their minds with ideas.
Maybe one of them will be in position to make a difference. Maybe one of
them will be President someday and will remember something I wrote.
Of course, a lot of the stuff I read in the past was extermely subversive.
Lots of SF is extremely radical and anti-state, anti-corporation,
anti-elitist.
And look where we are today. In deep shit.
Still, that literature did produce me. So, maybe I can help produce
others like me.
Maybe.
Don't give up, Toots.
Just prepare yourself to be seriously disappointed.
Just for the record, wondering whether or not you're right is silly. How do we convince people that if they think they're right, they have a right to fight for their beliefs even while acknowledging that there's a chance someone else could be right too? 'Cuz it would be cool if we could do that... people would start fighting for their own causes, rather than sitting around bitching about somebody else's that they hate but won't do anything about.
In any case, I try to be an idealist. I try really hard to believe we can fix whatever's wrong with the universe. Because I don't think it's just us, somehow I think it's everything... but we can start with us.
Quote from: fluffyBut when I got higher up in the anti-war organizations, I realize that
the people at the top were just expoliting the people below for their own
political gain, be it recruiting for their socialist cabal, or building a base
from which to run for office as a Democrat.
I'm not surprised a bit.
When I started working I was a journalist. I even thought for a while about being a foreign correspondent. Of course the longer I worked in the media the more unpalatable it became. I learned more and more about the politics of newspapers from colleagues who work there and thought that there was no way in hell I would be willing to get my head chopped off for one of those papers.
But you brought up the 60s. Activism didn't get us everything it should have maybe, but we got a LOT anyway. Where would race relations be without the stuff you guys did in the 60s? Where would women be?
We're stupid animals, it takes knocking us over the head over and over before we finally get something.
I'm not expecting total victory. I'm just expecting not to give up.
Quote from: TootsBut you brought up the 60s. Activism didn't get us everything it should have maybe, but we got a LOT anyway. Where would race relations be without the stuff you guys did in the 60s? Where would women be?
Yeah, when I was a kid, "coloreds" couldn't drink out of the same
drinking fountains as me. I remember that kind of thing sometimes
when I see blacks and whites mix (here in Indiana) without anybody
batting an eye. We've come a long way. Still, we could lose it all
tomorrow. And the problem stills exists. It's just no longer spoken
out loud. It's just "understood."
Quote from: gnimbleyQuote from: TootsWe've come a long way. Still, we could lose it all tomorrow. And the problem stills exists. It's just no longer spoken
out loud. It's just "understood."
We just need to keep going. The balance does swing eventually towards the side that has the most momentum, and I really think it will be the good guys. Eventually shit HAS to change or we go extinct along with everything else around us.
And I know it looks like we're well on the way to the big fade out, but I'm not so sure.There is a World Peace Summit happening in my city this year. People are living in eco-villages, Monsanto got shamed into backing away from its Terminator seed...There is still some fight in 'er I think as long as we keep talking and thinking about it.
<--chipping away at the stone
And yet people are still dying all over the world from perfectly curable diseases, not to mention global war that makes you long for the good old days of MAD!
:lol:
Quote from: CainAnd yet people are still dying all over the world from perfectly curable diseases, not to mention global war that makes you long for the good old days of MAD!
:lol:
Just means we need to be doing more than we are currently doing.
We need to grab bigger chisels.
People are dying because we are not putting enough pressure on our governments to mandate pharmaceutical companies to provide them with meds. We're also letting our politicians walk away from the responsibility Europe and the US has over the state of the place where most of those people are dying-Africa. Our ancestors fucked it up. Unfortunately they left it for us to fix. We're dooing a piss-poor job of that so far.
Humans = cave men in suits. SNAFU is the normal state of existence. The only changes are more sophisticated forms of repression, shinier weapons and more complex power games.
Quote from: TootsQuote from: CainAnd yet people are still dying all over the world from perfectly curable diseases, not to mention global war that makes you long for the good old days of MAD!
:lol:
Just means we need to be doing more than we are currently doing.
We need to grab bigger chisels.
People are dying because we are not putting enough pressure on our governments to mandate pharmaceutical companies to provide them with meds. We're also letting our politicians walk away from the responsibility Europe and the US has over the state of the place where most of those people are dying-Africa. Our ancestors fucked it up. Unfortunately they left it for us to fix. We're dooing a piss-poor job of that so far.
I'm sorry, the idea of the government mandating that a company give away free product doesn't sit well with me. What if we bought the meds and sent them over? Then everyone's happy.
Quote from: TootsECH I hope my answer didn't come off snarky cause that's not how it was meant.
I really have been thinking a lot about this lately though. I think our problem is that whatever shit is going on in the world that's wrong seems totally huge and we seem pretty tiny in comparison. Then most of us throw in the question of how do I know if what I think is right is right. And I think that's how people who think some things should not be happening get stuck doing nothing.
That plus laziness.
And I totally accept that some of us, most of us actually, are content doing nothing and thinking about nothing but their own comfort. But I find so many people who know better, who are aware and still don't do anything because a) they are too jaded by now to try b) they'd rather talk than have to do.
But I think we all know that the "wrong" things/people/ideas are so. Just like the CEO of a farm concern dumping pig piss and shit into the river and poisoning it knows that it's wrong to do it. They might still do it anyway, but I'm pretty sure they know.
Know what I mean?
(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/mittens.gif)
Quote from: TootsAnd I refuse to admitt defeat until the very last trace of the fight goes out of the great beast that is homo sapiens.
You had me until there. Just remember, dinosaurs were considered "great beasts" too but couldn't hack it forever. Of course Atomic War and an Overpopulation-fed negative feedback cycle will be our cataclysmic comet.
Quote from: Rev. What's-His-Name?Quote from: TootsAnd I refuse to admitt defeat until the very last trace of the fight goes out of the great beast that is homo sapiens.
You had me until there. Just remember, dinosaurs were considered "great beasts" too but couldn't hack it forever. Of course Atomic War and an Overpopulation-fed negative feedback cycle will be our cataclysmic comet.
Ok, but Rev, look at it from my point of view. Even if we go extinct, what's the worst thing that could happen if we
try to fix things? The whole place might still do the big kaboom but at least we'll know we tried to do
something.
Toots,
I am with you. I will continue to do my part to fight what I believe to be wrong, no matter what. I fuck with my place of work in small ways every single day, and try to fuck with the minds of the people in my city in some small way which might break the tedium just long enough for them to think.
I don't care if its hopeless; I will continue.
Quote from: Baron von HooplaToots,
I am with you. I will continue to do my part to fight what I believe to be wrong, no matter what. I fuck with my place of work in small ways every single day, and try to fuck with the minds of the people in my city in some small way which might break the tedium just long enough for them to think.
I don't care if its hopeless; I will continue.
You just made my day Baron. I knew I continued talking to you for some reason, despite you know--those pics you have with the sheep and the...uh...amorous activities. :shock:
No no no - we were WRESTLING!
HONEST, OFFICER...I WAS JUST HELPING THAT SHEEP OVER THE FENCE
\
(http://bbs.fuckedcompany.com/icons/joshua.gif)
People talk about how hopeless it all is and so on... but really, I think it all depends on what your objectives are.
If you want to bring The Machine crashing down, then yeah, hopeless. Not going to happen, certainly not in my lifetime anyway, and probably not in that of my children, or their children, and so on.
But... what we can do is try and lay the foundations for change, the way I see it, things have gotten so bad because of the fact that people don't see people as people any more, so try and change that perception.
Sure, you can try and snap people out of their boredom and so on, but (generally) all it'll do is irritate them, and sometimes just solidify their belief that everyone else in an asshole, so why the hell should they treat them like equals?
Hell, we've gotten to the stage where -my- generation (I'm 17) has it so ingrained that nobody else is really human, that they literally KILL their grandmothers for the rainy-day fund in the cookie jar. And others are mugged for pocket change and left to die.
If things are going to change, what needs to happen is an entire ethical shift back to where words like Respect actually mean that, rather than mean some kind of vague fear/dominance thing.
So... what am I trying to get at?
Simple, try and make people think of you and the others around them as other people. Do nice things for them, just little things. Hold the door open, offer up your seat on the bus to the elderly/pregnant/injured. Nothing earth-shattering, but you can be damn sure that they remember that as something that brightened their day. Lead by example.
Even if it doesn't work in the long run, at least you'll know you've done something nice for a few people. And who knows, if we haven't managed to cleanse the planet of all life a few generations down the line, maybe people will have advanced to the point where they actually do treat others as equals...
And that is one step closer to breaking free of the dominance/submission cycle completely, and thus bringing down The Machine.