Eris is Dead! Long Live... what?
Seriously, what are we replacing her with?
I hear talk of a PD for 2006, about updating the book that began discordianism for the modern age, but rather than write new parables about Eris, the bitch what done it all, we are moving away from the central tenants of Discordianism and plunging headlong into a fully political movement?
What. The. Fuck?
Since when was Discordianism all about the politics? Sure, that is in there, but it certainly sounds like we are taking a small part of Discordianism and blowing it out of all proportion, updating the PD for 2006 does not mean completely recreating it, does not mean completely tearing down everything the old PD stood for in the first place.
Sure, new icons and new ideas are always good- this is Discordianism damnit, we are supposed to be all about new ideas, that doesn't mean completely destroying the old ones. Recently on another forum I have had a great discussion with a Discordian on the concept of Discordian philosophy, the meaning of the Sacred Chao, and these things will just be lost?
Fuck that.
I'm all for moving towards a darker humor, I am not all for becoming deadly serious or coming across as jaded. I am all for new ideas, maybe even throwing out the more outdated/overdone ideas such as the law of fives or 23, I am not for throwing away the entire focus as I saw it of the religion-joke-religion.
Because you people seem to have forgotten that this is what Discordianism was originally all about- making people question their beliefs by pointing out how stupid beliefs can be, how strange the universe can be, you have taken those teachings and over the years you have lost the focus, I fear that the PD for 2006 is going to portray the entire Discordian movement as nothing more or less than a fanatical political machine.
Hell, just see how you react to the newbs at the moment, Wolfpoet is a prime example, and to a lesser extent Lady Godiva. He (and she) didn't seem to fit into the jaded bunch you guys have become, so you lay into them both pretty hard, Discordianism was all about accepting new ideas, all about questioning things.
Have you questioned yourselves lately? Or have you become so secure in your own self-importance that you view yourself as Above the Newbs?
Hail Eris. All Hail Discordia. :cry:
I endorse this statement.
Signing up for the Jihad!
Become a Paladin/iman/rabbi or Fa Shih for the new millenium in the wonderful world of Discordia!
Hail the Archangel Eris!
Quoth the profit: "Goddess doesn't care if you say 'Hail Eris!' or not. In fact, she thinks it makes you look like a tool."
Expanded: Today's Self-unaware Discordian will not come into the bosom of Eris by the Old Methods. Any Erisian worth their salt will, once intrigued, research the old texts (like the one on this very website). What we are looking for is not to rewrite the mythos, we are building a new recruiting tool aimed at the kids to whom LSD is quaint, and to whom the horrific visions of Reality (tm) would stagger the hippes of the 60's.
Yes, when they enter Discordianism, they will find out all about She What Done It All. But unless we engage them at their level, they'll never know.
I'm... sorry?
As a member of the generation you are aiming at, I promise that I do not see LSD as quaint, nor do any of the people I know... more as something to be avoided because it can, and will, fuck you up badly.
I'm more worried about calling it the Principia Discordia '06 since it will bear such little relation to the original PD, if you aren't going to at least part-way base it upon the principles of the old one, why try and pretend you are updating it? Release a new book with a new name, one that has more to do with the political than the philosophical/religious.
As a disclaimer- I do not mean political Discordianism is bad, only different from what the PD originally was.
Discordianism is a great philosophy once you remove all the religious references, IMO. Deism (even jokingly) is a dangerous concept and should be ruthlessly stamped out whenever it is encountered.
this is my opinion, so this is the viewpoint my writing slants towards.
some may agree, and their writing may reflect that.
some may disagree, and their writing may reflect that.
at the end of the day, I think we are all more or less on the same page, we may just be on different paragraphs. It certainly shouldn't be allowed to become an obstacle to our greater goals. If you don't feel comfortable working with people who don't share your EXACT viewpoint on all things discordian, then it's certainly your prerogative to not partake in the project, not post here, etc. But I think it would be a shame to lose people that way. Wolfpoet and Ladyy Godiva were challenged when they first showed up, and both seem to have risen to the challenge. Neither of them has complained about being asked to back up their assertions, and it seems as though both have been well accepted by those of us who have been here awhile, whether or not we agree with all of their opinions. Some people will say that we are not conciliatory enough or inclusive enough in our consideration of every single viewpoint. I tell them that we are a group who has agreed upon a course of action and are actively purusing that course of action because that's what WE feel is right. Those who disagree more strongly than we can make allowances for are more than welcome to start their own Discordian literature projects. Some people will say that we are too hard on new people or too unwilling to be patient with those who don't understand or aren't sure they agree with what we're doing. I tell them that time is pressing, and the wheat needs to be separated from the chaff sooner rather than later. Our time is better spent working towards our goals than coddling people.
Frankly, I'm kind of surprised to see this from you, Kai. I've always been under the impression that you thought this whole thing was a good idea, and you've certainly made valuable contributions. I'd hate to see you bail out on this, so if you have more specific concerns, please feel free to air them either here or via PM to myself or whomever you feel comfortable talking to. I promise, I'll listen to what you have to say, even if I don't agree with it.
I'm not going to bail out. I genuinely believe a re-release of the PD would be a positive thing, and I will continue to be involved in this community even if all relation to the old PD is lost, even if it is more in the background than I have been of late, I intend to start ramping up my own Operation Mindfuck in my area once my exams are out of the way, and I intend to keep people on here posted as to how that goes.
I've just slept on the issues raised by my poster, the move away from the religious element is something that worries me, it is a large part of what I initially found attractive myself.
I think the problem I have is that it was said we were going to redo the PD for '06, but it seems we are writing an entirely new book. A lot of people will just discount the Olde PD for the 'new' version, I think, and losing a lot of the more classical stuff in there for good would be very disappointing to me.
I would just like to repeat the statement that the pd06 is not going to REPLACE the PD23e, like it has earlier aditions. It is, in specific, a piece of propaganda writing to be the first discordian scripture they read. We are trying to speciallize Reverse Brainwashing for this generation to not only hook more people but to ease transition from their sheepie life into a comunity of Jaded discordians such as ourselves. Once they get estabished, then we introduce the discordian cannon to them, INCLUDING the classic PD.
The new pd is a tool for recruitment, and not the end all, be all discordian text.
The point Kai-Wren and myself have been trying to make is we don't want to become a comunity of jaded Discordians like yourselves.
For us it means allot more.
I think the main problem I have is that jaded implies cynical, unaccepting- part of the charm of Discordianism is that it is, theoretically, pretty damn accepting of anything, that is the entire point.
Shake off your bonds of jaded-ness, friends.
political movement?
what?
Quote from: LHXpolitical movement?
what?
I agree with Light House. This has nothing to do with political movement, and everything with finding a new way to get converts and more of them, to get people to wake up. Cause thats more important now more than ever.
The way I see it, we're just using the phrase "PD06" as a convenient handle. I doubt it will end up being called that.
more philosophy on Monday.[/i]
And suddenly... things seem clearer.
I think I managed to totally misunderstand where a lot of the ideas behind this were headed, but... yeah...
ah well, its still a good rant :lol:
Should the idea of Eris be removed completely? Or quietly alluded to, so that only the most curious would know?
With the latter, when people question the original, they could be pointed to the Greek idea
Problem is the new way is coming from old Jaded minds.
I tried an experiment yesterday, popped down AEC on my break and chatted to a mate of mine on a course. He's a pretty open minded Soldier and always bitches to me about things, Government, religion, politics.
He's been to iraq, seen the shit and I respect him allot for what he's been through. Reckoned he was a prime candidate, I've discussed Discordianism with him and he liked it, loved the whole Erisian aspect and the way I mocked the preachy thing.
I logged onto this sigte under my name at the AEC and let him scroll through.
After 30 minutes his responce was "Bunch of dumb yank anarchists"
Almost ruined everything I'd built. So i went back to square one.
So, your test was to have him look around before we're even halfway started?
LMNO
-Wonders about you, sometimes.
I think this is the problem, correct me if I'm wrong...
Stuff people posting at the moment = lure.
Stuff we have seen in Ye Olde PD= for people already hooked?
So yeah, the site at the moment looks pretty far removed from what we would associate with Discordianism... 'cause we are practicing with ways to hook people, not ways to explain the philosophy to the hooked.
Seesm to me, this place doesn't give a shit about the philosophy anymore.
I'm a noob to Discordianism and you guys have manged to turn me off allot, it's only Kai-Wren's stubborness and reading the PD that keeps me in this.
Apologies. Allow me to start a new thread so we can properly discuss this.
On the last page, something like "What's that word... call Kristi? Call isti? Something like that?"
I like that idea :lol:
Every time I've tried to interject philosophy, debate how i see Discordianism or say anything that goes against waht you gusy considers to be the one true faith, I get yelled down. Nothing positive for noobs, just berating and flaming.
America is a under a very heavy Christian influence.
If it ain't Jesus, it ain't right.
If it's Satanism, it's morally reprehensible.
If it's Islam, it's really wrong.
If it's none of the above, holy fuck look out. You read it, you are a lunatic.
I'm not a yank.
And do you realy think throwing out the best link between theism and Discordianism is gonan do you any favours?
Present Discodianism as an atheistic anarchy, which is how religous folks WILL see it, will only recruit people already in the frame of mind to accept it.
Eris is a powerful metaphor religous folks can relate to. Throw out the Greek shit and dress her up the way i have presented it.
Eris, Archangel of Discord.
Its a joke, takes the piss out of Christianity but has christian references that could draw in the religously inclined. Then the reverse brainwashing ,that BMW so eloquently presented, can begin.
It was the Eris references that got me into this in the first place.
This is going to go in circles, but this is what you'll get from any North American who has had a semi-religious upbringing.
"You said Goddess? I don't like the sound of that."
"What's an Eris? Greek goddess of what? What's Discord? You don't pray or worship her? Why do you call Eris a Goddess?"
"YOU PUT JESUS IN YUOR BOOK AND DIDNT SAY YOUR LIFE WILL TURN AROUND THE MINUTE YOU GET WATER SPLASHED ON YUOR FACE?! DIE DIE DIE BURN IN HELL HEATHEN!"
Unless it's someone who is already jaded with the religions of the day, most likely an atheist. Possibly bordering on nihilsm.
To use Eris as a metaphor, you would have to change the name, change all the history, etc. Or, write the book on it. It's Discord.
Sometimes I am REALY glad I live in a secular society.
I think wolfpoet pointed this out before, but...
We have a linked church/state figure in the queen.
You guys are seperate.
Over here religion is (almost) completely ignored.
Over your way religion pics presidents and has a major influence on society.
something to think about anyway.
I'm a Canuck.
I have no clue if the PM has ever set foot in a church.
Erisian philosophy/Theosophy thread started in "Principia Discussion" subforum.
Please to be having a non-shouting discussion of Erisianism (the spiritual/esoteric/mystic/almost-religious side of Discordianism*)
*My definition.
Quote from: Kai WrenEris is Dead! Long Live... what?
Seriously, what are we replacing her with?
I hear talk of a PD for 2006, about updating the book that began discordianism for the modern age, but rather than write new parables about Eris, the bitch what done it all, we are moving away from the central tenants of Discordianism and plunging headlong into a fully political movement?
What. The. Fuck?
Since when was Discordianism all about the politics? Sure, that is in there, but it certainly sounds like we are taking a small part of Discordianism and blowing it out of all proportion, updating the PD for 2006 does not mean completely recreating it, does not mean completely tearing down everything the old PD stood for in the first place.
Sure, new icons and new ideas are always good- this is Discordianism damnit, we are supposed to be all about new ideas, that doesn't mean completely destroying the old ones. Recently on another forum I have had a great discussion with a Discordian on the concept of Discordian philosophy, the meaning of the Sacred Chao, and these things will just be lost?
Fuck that.
I'm all for moving towards a darker humor, I am not all for becoming deadly serious or coming across as jaded. I am all for new ideas, maybe even throwing out the more outdated/overdone ideas such as the law of fives or 23, I am not for throwing away the entire focus as I saw it of the religion-joke-religion.
Because you people seem to have forgotten that this is what Discordianism was originally all about- making people question their beliefs by pointing out how stupid beliefs can be, how strange the universe can be, you have taken those teachings and over the years you have lost the focus, I fear that the PD for 2006 is going to portray the entire Discordian movement as nothing more or less than a fanatical political machine.
Hell, just see how you react to the newbs at the moment, Wolfpoet is a prime example, and to a lesser extent Lady Godiva. He (and she) didn't seem to fit into the jaded bunch you guys have become, so you lay into them both pretty hard, Discordianism was all about accepting new ideas, all about questioning things.
Have you questioned yourselves lately? Or have you become so secure in your own self-importance that you view yourself as Above the Newbs?
Hail Eris. All Hail Discordia. :cry:
Right, I'm going to deal with this in an open, frank and honest fashion, for a change.
1. No-one has offered to write one about Eris yet. However if you want to, I see no problem. I was going to throw the Original Snub in anyway, either the normal or Esoteric Version (RAW).
2. Politics is important. Politics impacts on society which impacts on culture which impacts on how we see the world and at the same time turns back into itself in a self-sustaining loop. If I were an artist, I would deal with art and influence that way. If I were a businessman, I would deal with it that way. But I'm not. Also politics is where the influenced and the influencers meet. I have a tendency to aim for the head or source of problems, I think I wrote a rant on it.
3. No-one has mentioned destroying anything. The Original PD remains. However, chaos means change. Holding up a book as the unchanging truth goes against the whole principle of chaos as a whole. If the truth changes, then should not the way the truth is revealed change too?
4. Nothing wrong with the law of five, so long as you realize the second part. Perhaps it should be put in bold or something. its an excellent example of how we filter reality to fit preconcieved patterns, in effect self-fulfilling prophecies.
5. Uh, you may want to check some of the writing that has been done. It is about setting yourself free. The black prison etc...in fact, LMNO drew up a whole list of things in a thread somewhere, which were more or less agreed on. You may want to look at that too.
6. PD.com has always been rough. Hell, Roger can't even get FC to troll us here and he's tried.
Well said, Cain.
Also, I was thinking, since you're the Eris history buff, why don't we sprinkle the few references to Eris from the Greek & Roman texts throughout PD06?
I was also thinking about revealing the second half of the law of fives, but have decided against it, following Enrico's theory of the Sacred Bull.
where the fuck is hoopla anyway?
he came back and then didnt
I'll start a thread on the Ancient Greek perception of Eris. I'm going to write, and may be gone awhile...
[/Captain Oates]
His work stricty monitors his Net use.
Then he got fired, and i dunno if he has the intrawebs at home.
Quote from: Kai WrenI think the main problem I have is that jaded implies cynical, unaccepting- part of the charm of Discordianism is that it is, theoretically, pretty damn accepting of anything, that is the entire point.
Shake off your bonds of jaded-ness, friends.
1) if you're not cynical, you're not paying close enough attention.
2) even the most cynical of us are pretty damn accepting of everyone. If you really think about it (even go back and look through old threads), with very few exceptions, everyone we've run out of this place really WAS a fucking moron. Or unwilling/unable to back up things they said that they were challenged on. I won't speak for anyone else, but I don't give a fuck WHAT you believe, as long as you have taken the time to understand WHY you believe it and can give a halfway intelligent response when I ask about it. It's BLIND faith that pisses me off.
Quote from: WolfpoetSeesm to me, this place doesn't give a shit about my philosophy anymore.
I'm a noob to Discordianism and you guys have manged to turn me off allot, it's only Kai-Wren's stubborness and reading the PD that keeps me in this.
bolded to reveal the real problem here.
dude, no one's telling you that you have to think like we do or believe what any of us believe. that's the beauty of the philosophy, it doesn't require dogma or adherence. But just as you are free to disagree with us,
we are free to disagree with you. If that "turns you off" to discordianism, then maybe you don't REALLY understand what you think you understand.
these discussions over the past week or two aren't about imposing our beliefs on anyone, they're about the best way to hook people that might have the potential to have their minds opened. and they're just that.
Discussions. If you disagree and want to write your own flyers and make your own posters and try to bring people into it in your own way, you're not only free to do that, but encouraged. Who cares about the means as long as the ends are achieved? If your way works better on the people you can expose this to, then by all means, do things whatever way you see fit.
damn.
You see that's the thing. Folks tend to be so ngeative and flame-like around here that it appears like you are telling me waht to do and think.
Bad idea to put someone in a siege mentality.
I understand that folks can and in some ways should disagree with me. maybe it's because I'm English and used to folks being a bit more polite in debates.
i hate politeness
but
i got love for people
politeness seem like just another thing to trip over
an obstacle in communication
just dont doubt the love
not even for a second
I'm an old-fashioned Englishman. Kinda grew up around politeness, Dad was a sergeant and got trained at an early age regarding manners.
Perhaps that's one of the perception-things I need to let go of, maybe not.
I like to think it's betetr to be reasoned, polite and calm when deabting, harder for the other guy to shout you down when you respond politelry.
Works much better in person than on the net i guess.
I think the lesson for me to carry from this is to grow a thicker skin.
Quote from: WolfpoetYou see that's the thing. Folks tend to be so ngeative and flame-like around here that it appears like you are telling me waht to do and think.
Bad idea to put someone in a siege mentality.
I understand that folks can and in some ways should disagree with me. maybe it's because I'm English and used to folks being a bit more polite in debates.
There's a fundamental assumption I've found:
You're here. That counts for a lot. You're articulate. More points to you. You're stubborn. Big ups.
So, before we even get to your ideas, you're already halfway there. We may not post respectfully, but you should see what what we're
capable of.
Also, no one here was shouting.
You'd know it if we were.
There might be 5 people simutaneously criticizing you, but hey, that's how we do.
As far as I know, no one called you an asshat, a fucktard, or asked if you caught a nasty case of Down's Syndrome.
See? Respectful!
I guess we've gotten to the point where we see Eris' joke as a particularly dark one.
Quote from: WolfpoetYou see that's the thing. Folks tend to be so ngeative and flame-like around here that it appears like you are telling me waht to do and think.
Bad idea to put someone in a siege mentality.
I understand that folks can and in some ways should disagree with me. maybe it's because I'm English and used to folks being a bit more polite in debates.
Its possible. Not being from an English family, I have very little of the traditional hangups that exist. I was considered a monster at the debating society at University, even by the standards of the outgoing Americans. I blame it on my criminal genes.
Kinda funny when I think about it.
me and Kai-Wren are always slagginge ach other off, do it with my other mates.
Guess I didn't realise you'd actualy taken to me and what i saw as flaming was just your way of doing things.
Flaming = Purified by fire.
LMNO
-Ripping off LHX's schtick.
I am the Sacred Flame of Tajikistan, I remind you. Fire = my schtick.
FIRE BAD!
This universe, which is the same for all, has not been made by any god or man, but it always has been is, and will be -- an ever-living fire, kindling itself by regular measures and going out by regular measures.
Heraclitus style pwnage.
Quote from: CainThis universe, which is the same for all, has not been made by any god or man, but it always has been is, and will be -- an ever-living fire, kindling itself by regular measures and going out by regular measures.
Heraclitus style pwnage.
:mittens:
Quoteno, no, no, NO.
if we want to have any chance at being effective and reaching people, we have to be a social and cultural movement. Injecting ANY religious frame of reference weakens our credibility and potential reach.
This and the following posts was the view that had me worried- this seemed to state, to me anyway, pretty explicitly- Eris = Not Welcome In PD '06
But... as I already said, a large part of the problem to me was the idea I'd picked up that what people are writing for is going to be called the Principia Discordia '06, if it isn't going to be called that, no reason to mention Eris so much.
As I also also stated- Politics is important
as well but I believe there is a danger in getting labelled as just another activist group or the like, that would turn away a lot of my generation over here- politics = insta-snooze for the majority.
As I said in the original post- no problem updating the PD at all, but I feel that doing it completely without Erisian mention would be, well, stupid. However, I've been set clear on this point- this isn't even really to update the PD, it is to create something entirely new, simply with the themes of the PD.
And in finishing... ancient greek Eris mentions and the like in the text would be pretty cool.
I got a post full of them up in Principia Discussion. Just remember, Ancient Eris is a war goddess, though I dig her more than modern Eris for that reason.
Ka-BUMP!
Well, it is semi-relevant.
Quote from: Kai Wren on May 12, 2006, 09:48:36 PM
ll, we are moving away from the central tenants of Discordianism and plunging headlong into a fully political movement?
Since when was Discordianism all about the politics? Sure, that is in there, but it certainly sounds like we are taking a small part of Discordianism and blowing it out of all proportion,
Politics have become a major factor of idenity of our age. No longer do people look at political movements as a question of principle or a question of performance
its become something all together different
something all together darker...
in our search for idenity people have come to see politics as a mirror of themselves
something to define themselves
its maybe only natural that the little religion known as discordia gets tangled in this
the new definition of a religion may no longer be what it questions, gives or takes
but what the parameters of its social reponisbilities, or lack of
well theres my 2 and half cents
Quote from: Cain on May 13, 2006, 01:50:12 PM
I got a post full of them up in Principia Discussion.  Just remember, Ancient Eris is a war goddess, though I dig her more than modern Eris for that reason.
Ancient Erisianism for the fucking
win.Who wants to be the prophet of Deimos and Phobos?
http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Eris.html
got some nifty pics of the goddess Eris
"[Eris] is hateful ... [she is the one] who builds up evil war, and slaughter. She is harsh; no man loves her, but under compulsion and by will of the immortals, men promote this rough Eris (Strife)." - Hesiod, Works and Days 11
"But the sons of men fought on, and slew; and Eris  gloating watched." - Quintus Smyrnaeus, Fall of Troy 9.324
"It was never true that there was only one Eris. There have always been two on earth. There is one you could like when you understand her. The other is hateful. The two Erites have separate natures. There is one Eris who builds up evil war, and slaughter. She is harsh; no man loves her, but under compulsion and by will of the immortals, men promote this rough Eris (Strife). But the other one was born the elder daughter of black Nyx. The son of Kronos, who sits on high and dwells in the bright air set her in the roots of the earth and among men; she is far kinder. She pushes the shiftless man to work, for all his laziness. ." - Hesiod, Works and Days 11
heres my favorite  :-) - though its roman not greek
"Here [at the porch and entrance to Hades] dwells ... lunatic Discordia [Eris] whose viperine hair is caught up with a headband soaked in blood." - Virgil, Aeneid 6.280
Virgil rules  :-)
Quote from: Thurnez Isa on October 18, 2006, 10:51:27 PM
http://www.theoi.com/Daimon/Eris.html]
"Here [at the porch and entrance to Hades] dwells ... lunatic Discordia [Eris] whose viperine hair is caught up with a headband soaked in blood." - Virgil, Aeneid 6.280
Sounds like my last party...
This is cool (well if your a geek like me you'd find it cool)
I had stuffed away on my book shelf virgils aeneid 6 in the orginal latin
I dont know latin but according to the numbers this is the quote in the orginal latin
"...ferreique Eumenidum thalami et Discordia demens vipereum crinem vittis innexa cruentis." Virgil 6 280  :evil:
(http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e168/ZLB/9-17-2006-14.jpg)
Enyo in the Great Frease of the Pergammon Altar.
Surely if people want to update eris, or the PD then that is up to them? If you don't agree with their version, do your own! No one can have monopoly on an idea. The more rival or 'complementary' interperatations and adaptations the better.
Bump for hilarious Wolfpoet whining.
I wonder what ever happened to that guy?
Wolf hypnotized him and ate him.
It was a life ending experience.
:lol:
He kept trying to find new things to look into the eyes of.
Eventually, he locked gazes with the Internet itself.
:lulz:
He turned into a meme and was never seen again
He drifted away from my social circle. Believe he is now a supermarket manager somewhere.
No wolf eatings as far as I know.
Also I was kind of a douche when I was a teenager, huh?
Quote from: Demolition_Squid on December 20, 2012, 04:36:53 PM
Also I was kind of a douche when I was a teenager, huh?
No more than anyone else. You brought up some good points...Not everyone agreed with them, but they were worth discussing.
Then wolfie showed up and started whining.