Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Think for Yourself, Schmuck! => Topic started by: LMNO on July 19, 2006, 12:56:06 pm

Title: What is The Machine™
Post by: LMNO on July 19, 2006, 12:56:06 pm
The Machine™ is what makes people send other people to diee for abstractions.

The Machine™ is what drives people to spend 40 hours a week doing tasks they dislike.

The Machine™ is what encourages people to want things they don't need, and makes them feel guilty for not having.

The Machine™ wants you to be in debt to a corporation.

The Machine™ is a punishing father figure.

The Machine™ beats you up for your lunch money.

The Machine™ knows what is RIGHT, and what is WRONG.





What is The Machine™ for you?
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Demolition_Squid on July 19, 2006, 01:06:32 pm
We are The Machine.
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on July 19, 2006, 01:08:02 pm
Ok, I'm gonna be nice.



Yes, we are The Machine‚Ñ¢, or at least parts of our mind contribute to The Machine‚Ñ¢.



So, wise guy, which parts?
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Demolition_Squid on July 19, 2006, 01:13:20 pm
The part of us that wants to fit in, of course. The part that judges other people, and yourself, in freudian terms the super-ego would be The Machine.

Quote
The super-ego is a symbolic internalization of the father figure and cultural regulations. The super-ego tends to stand in opposition to the desires of the id because of their conflicting objectives, and is aggressive towards the ego. The super-ego acts as the conscience, maintaining our sense of morality and the prohibition of taboos.
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LHX on July 19, 2006, 01:41:55 pm
i cant answer this without jumping deep into language and alternate views of history
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Triple Zero on July 19, 2006, 01:45:00 pm
wooops sorry i think it's obvious that the post from the other thread should definitely be in this one, right?

--- of to do some surgery!

** PASTE!! **

LHX wrote:
> as far as tactics to make a Big Hollywood-Style Impact™ that WON'T end you up at b) [dead], c) [hospital], or d) [jail], i do not know

yes, that will be very hard indeed
if it's "Big Hollywood Style", Machine's gonna know it's you.
if you make a big impact trying to destroy it, Machine will not be happy.

and

it's not that Machine-not-being-happy *causes* b,c or d.
it's that Machine-not-being-happy is *expressed* in b,c or d.

because truly, if you think of Machine as "just" a machine, you will get mangled. it's an organism. large and powerful. if it's intelligent or smart, i think not, but this is open for debate. but one thing we do know about organisms is that they will fight for their survival.

ok i will now have a stab at LMNO's question.

i tried to touch this subject before, in my democracy-post, but it didn't really get off the ground.
Machine is an organism, in the sense that the earth is an organism (like Lovelock's Gaia theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_theory_(science)).
The complexity of life occurs on a lot of different levels. A very low level is for example a human cell (below this level are possibly mitochondria but never mind that). Go a level up and you encounter organs and the human organism. Now these levels are, like nothing ever is, of course not discrete numberable levels, they are all entangled and shit. That's what you get for biology. Anyway you go up more levels and you enter stuff like family, tribe, society, country, corporation, nation, conspiracy, etc.
They are all made up of people.
Some of these are just loose groupings of people, but others are rather more complex and transcend the notion of "group of people", just like a person or a brain transcends the notion of "group of cells".

damn, did anyone here read "Goedel Escher Bach"??? in his preface to the 20th anniversary edition Hofstadter writes it down so clearly: Intelligence/Life/Consciousness is not in the medium but in the patterns. .. can't find it on google i'll copy a bit here:
Quote from: douglas hofstadter
Something very strange thus emerges from the Goedelian loop [the "strange loop" phenomenon Goedel uses in his mathematical proof - 000]: the revelation of the causal power of meaning in a rule-bound but meaning-free universe. And this is where my analogy to brains and selves comes back in, suggesting that the twisted loop of selfhood trapped inside an inanimate bulb called a "brain" also has causal power - or, put it another way, that a mere pattern called "I" can shove around inanimate particles in the brain no less than inanimate particles in the brain can shove around patterns. In short, an "I" comes about - in my view, at least - via a kind of vortex whereby patterns in a brain mirror the brain's mirroring of the world, and eventually mirror themselves, whereupon the vortex of "I" becomes a real, causal entity.
(...)
When and only when such a loop arises in a brain or in any other substrate, is a person - a unique new "I" - brought into being. Moreover, the more self-referentially rich such a loop is, the more conscious is the self to which it gives rise. Yes, shocking though this might sound, consciousness is not an on/off phenomenon, but admits of degrees, grades, shades.

pfff i wish i could write my thoughts like that :) anyway, i hope i kind of have given here a good indication of my reasonings why i think Machine can be called an organism of some kind. (and i draw this conclusion not only from GEB, it just happened that i read the above passage yesterday when i started re-reading the book).

i also think it's incorrect to speak about one Machine. i think it makes more sense to view them as multiple Machines, nations, corporations and societies, all competing for their place in the economic/social ecosystem that is humanity. some are good some are bad. some get destroyed by others, some get absorbed by others, some work together in order to destroy a third, etc. all this just "happens" in a "hey i just work here" kind of way, from the perspective of humans. these organisms are not smart, in my opinion, just very powerful in their ways, and they're made of humans, but just battle for their own survival. they don't care about humans, because it is not in their interest to do so. just like i could care less about the few cells in my body that die every time i sit down on my arse.

Machine(s) are made of humans, and nothing else. ?

no, wait it is even different. the pattern of life can occur in any medium. we don't mind the lifeform, what we mind is the medium! it's not that these machines are there, it's the fact that they are made of humans and treat humans like expendable body-cells that pretty much pissed us off and made us concentrate here on this board.

i dunno, so far i can see a few ideas to remedy the situation
- destroy the machines. discordian chaos/OM is a good attempt. like malfunctioning organs and uninhibited mutated cells (cancer) kills a lifeform.
- get ourselves a "good" machine, like kai wren said. it may be possible, but you have to make sure it is 1) able to defeat the other machines and 2) is intrinsically concerned with the well-being of the humans it is made of. who knows, perhaps discordianism can become such a machine some day.
- a bit far-fetched and esoteric, but since it is the medium on which these machines are operating that bugs us, if we can just slowly transfer their patterns to another medium, nobody'd notice and we're rid of them. kind of like the machines did to the humans in the matrix, actually :)

LMNO, sorry this might have turned out a bit more pseudo-zen than i intended, please don't bite my lips off cause i have more to say but this post is getting so long and nobody likes to read long posts, really.
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on July 19, 2006, 01:59:52 pm
No, 000, that's the kind of answer I was looking for.

The lip-ripping stuff is crap like:

Quote from: Some idiot, eventually
The Machine, IS.




I'll try & digest some of your post & respond in kind.  Good insights.


LHX, jump deep into language and alternate views of history, please.

Kai, Freud has largely been discounted, but that's a good metaphor.
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LHX on July 19, 2006, 02:07:06 pm
i guess its good to pull everything together once every couple of months

i will try to post the latest version of whatever it is some time this morning
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Triple Zero on July 19, 2006, 02:30:53 pm
Quote from: LMNO
The lip-ripping stuff is crap like:
Quote from: Some idiot, eventually
The Machine, IS.

 :lol:

but in case you didn't notice
Quote from: This idiot, in another thread
The Machine(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/1678/fnord1rs.gif) is that which rips my lips off

 :twisted:

oh and i'm sure LHX won't mind if i quote a few little bits from our MSN conversation just now
Quote from: MSN
000: it's just my opinion that once something gets a certain level of complexity and starts trying to protect its own existence, but in a self-referential way (that's important, otherwise a sturdy safe would be an organism as well), you can judge it as an organism.
actually the most important bit is that it protects itself in a self-referential (semi-conscious) way, no matter what you call it

LHX: i agree, but like i say, if it relies upon (or is a part of) humans, an argument could be made that it is the inverse of these things - it benefits directly from our lack of being self-referential; its 'semi-consciousness' is allowed by our 'semi-unconsciousness' or 'semi-ignorance'
when two things are this closely tied together
it is hard to separate one from the other and call it its own entity entirely

000: hm that is an interesting view
it kind of works, also with the other analogy. as single-cellular organisms joined to create multi-cellular organisms they lost part of their consciousness/identity, just like humans do when they form large faceless corporations
yet another crazy feedback loop
i can already hear the white bloodcells calling out "hey i just work here" as they kill off yet another innocent bacterium :)
(...)
the thing is, as conscious (and even the semi-conscious/ignorant) humans we are in a pretty unique position to say "i don't want to be part of this" .. while for ex. the white bloodcells aren't.

LHX: we are in a unique position to say it, but some might argue that we are not in a position to actually do it

(there's some more, but i don't want to be a bore about this)
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: vexaph0d on July 19, 2006, 05:16:10 pm
It Seems to Me™...

That the Machine™ is, like TZ said, an 'organism' that exists as an extension of our collectivity.  It's the mindless beast that will always exist, in some form or another, any time 2 or more humans get together to achieve individual goals through collective effort.  It is the macro-human-nature we try to harness, tap into, or restrain, through governments.

In modern times I think the Machine™ is more centralized and visible than it has been historically.  Our society isn't just a bunch of people gathering for a purpose anymore.  Our society has become an entity unto itself, it is deliberately designed these days, and it works like clockwork.  It's been apparent to me for some time that the metaphors describing the Machine™ are less and less actually metaphors, and more actual description.

But I also think that limiting it to a function of human society, however 'macro' it is, is incorrect.  The Machine™ seems to transcend cultures and borders, political landscapes, and history itself.  Ultimately, even the world's largest societies and most gradiose conspiracies are only pieces of the Machine™.  So what the fuck IS it?  I guess that's what the OP was asking...

You could go on forever into larger and higher levels of organization to eek out a mediocre description of the Machine™'s behavior, but a definitive statement about the nature of the Machine™ is what we need.  And for me it comes down to a simple one.

The Machine™ is the large-scale perversion of human society into a self-interested Con, whose Effect (if not its entire Purpose), is the blinding of people into pouring themselves into it doing things they hate and things that kill them prematurely, and fooling them into thinking that there is nothing but The Machine™.

The Machine™ is an enormous and probably brainless Uberconspiracy with no purpose other than to exist.

SubQuestion : is there a Perpetrator of the Machine?
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: AFK on July 19, 2006, 05:50:32 pm
The Machine(tm) is the collection of human failings that have evolved, copulated, and given birth to this ever-growing, ever-existing, ever-churning, non-entity entity that saturates the world that we humans live in.  

It's like in the theory of evolution where a bunch of amino acids and enzymes and other collections of molecules just kind of started smooshing into each other and dancing and turning into an ancient amoeba that eventually smooshed and danced with other ameobas and turned into a microscopic slug, so and and so forth.  

The Machine(tm) started as civilizations of humans started.  There probably was no Machine(tm) when it was every caveman for himself.  Because he could only be corrupted by his own mind, but, worrying only about food and mating with the first female he saw he probably didn't worry about corrupting himself or even understand or acknowledge the existence of such a concept.  Hell, the idea of a concept probably would have been foreign to him.  

As cavemen settled with other cavemen societies formed and interactions withing these societies commenced.  And this would be when the "amino acids" and "enzymes" of human failings and inadequacies started to mingle with each other.  In the beginning they formed harmless amoebas.  However, hundreds and thousands of years later as more people lived with more people these "amoebas" coalesced and evolved.  They became Greed and Powerlust and Manipulation and Corruption and they became bigger like trees and rooted themselves deep into the topsoil of human sociology.  

Eventually it just became itself.  Always there but not seen by those who spawned it long ago.  However, always, ceaselessly imparting its affects upon its unwitting creators.  But we do see it.  We do feel it.  And as its been said before, we cannot kill it.  We can only hope to create our own "amino acids" and "ensymes" to create our own amoebas that perhaps can start to replace some of the old ones.  And perhaps, just maybe, we can at least turn a limb of The Machine(tm) and give humanity a small glimmer of hope of evolving The Machine(tm) into something else.  

Or not........
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on July 19, 2006, 05:57:59 pm
I'm starting to think this might turn into a new pamphlet...
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: The unimportant one on July 19, 2006, 06:30:37 pm
(http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/8555/wanebluop4.jpg)
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on July 19, 2006, 06:32:10 pm
::reconsiders::
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: That Guy on July 19, 2006, 06:32:15 pm
To refer back to Rev. WHN's last point, if the machine part of the Machine‚Ñ¢ metaphor holds true, it can be turned to a better purpose. In the same way that a knife is not inherently evil: it's evil if it's sticking in your kidneys, but not if it's helping you eat your food.

But it depends on the view of the Machine‚Ñ¢ - is it the entirety of this corrupted social system, stagnating under its own gargantuan size and existing as a parasite rather than in commensal or mutual symbiosis, or is it all our follies and therefore an unsalvagable and monolithic evil (creating an easy to grasp black-and-white situation)?

Will I ever learn how to break up my run-on sentences?
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on July 19, 2006, 06:33:32 pm
Last question first: no.


I also see a need to separate the negative and positive (or, at least neutral) aspects of the Machine.


What is it we want to change, anyway?
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: on July 19, 2006, 06:38:32 pm
The Machine applies a system of pacification and conditioned apathy, over the course of generations, this is an effect which escalates. Poverty creates a low class job force, people who operate car washes and fast food restaraunts. Individual units at the lowest level, which when they malfunction, are self destructive (or at least destructive within their own subset), are easily replaced, and do not have the means or incentive to effect the high end operators of The Machine.

Personal connection to survival is discouraged. At a point in human history (the industrial revolution) cooperation with ones neighbors, family, etc (IE personal bonds) became obsolete. Food became Product. Shelter became Product. Health became Product. Actual communication, and cooperation, became obsolete. The Machine has taken steps to remove these factors from the system.

(etc etc.)
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: vexaph0d on July 19, 2006, 06:41:55 pm
As far as what to change, I think these things:

a) violence
b) oppression/tyranny
c) religious extremism in that it causes the first two
d) Texas

might be a good place to start.

if the end result needs to be a system that absolutely does not allow those things, we probably should get to the bottom of what causes all that.

also, tube sock abuse has seen an alarming upswing in recent months.
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: on July 19, 2006, 07:05:12 pm
a) violence is caused most frequently by poverty, reduce poverty, and you reduce the overall climate of violence.

b) poverty is a tool of oppression/tyranny. Reduce poverty, and you take one of their weapons away from them.

c) religious extremism is also tool of oppression/tyranny. I think this actually falls under the broader category of 'socially engineered ignorance'. The 'No Child Left Behind' agenda is a good example of that phenomena in action.

d)I dont even know where to begin.

Quote
might be a good place to start.

if the end result needs to be a system that absolutely does not allow those things, we probably should get to the bottom of what causes all that.

also, tube sock abuse has seen an alarming upswing in recent months.


I dont think that creating a new system is a very good place to start. Lets start with exploiting the one we already have.

As far as overall changes in the system:

Intelligence needs to be encouraged on a social level, not discouraged.

Reliance on the Machine for mundane needs (food, water, etc) should be reduced. Personally, I'd like to be able to EAT without feeding a vast corporate empire... and its not that its impossible to do, its just hideously impractical.

Regardless, there are a lot of things I'd just rather not talk about.
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: That Guy on July 19, 2006, 07:17:36 pm
Fundamentally, it's the parasitism we want to change.  It should be benefiting us, rather than harming us to benefit it.

Reducing its control would be a part of this. Not neccessarily laws and the like, but the combined use of crowding and democracy. People function differently in crowds than they do when behaving as individuals. People are organized into two major crowds for voting purposes, so that any radical or out of place notions in their ideologies will slowly be forced out by that crowd. If people are voting as two massive groups, and not as individuals, voting fraud isn't even needed. Or so my half-baked theory goes.

The indoctrination process, with its many facets, should also be a concern.
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: AFK on July 19, 2006, 09:25:36 pm
I don't think you can change the whole of The Machine(tm).  To me, that would require changing the whole of the human race, or at least a 2/3rds majority to root out the last 1/3.  I think The Machine(tm) is a byproduct, but a very powerful one, of the majority of the human race.  We, for example, I think represent a portion of the minority that recognize The Machine(tm).  We may not agree on its definition 100% but I think we have a nebulus consensus on it, enough so that we want to do "something" to it.  

And why?  Why do we want to do something to it?  Because we know it does "bad" to people we like, or for the self-centered, it does bad to ourselves.  

And now I wonder, do we really want to stop or change The Machine(tm)?  Or, do we want to just make it apparent for those who do not recognize it so that they may work within it in a way that it does not harm them, or at least, does so minimally.  

This is a very open ended, circling concept isn't it?
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on July 19, 2006, 09:34:01 pm
Quote
Or, do we want to just make it apparent for those who do not recognize it so that they may work within it in a way that it does not harm them, or at least, does so minimally.



I like that.
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: AFK on July 19, 2006, 09:38:11 pm
Apparently my brain works well under stress.  I can only come up with this stuff if I'm at work or my house is doing its impression of Old Faithful.
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on July 19, 2006, 09:42:03 pm
So, that means you'll achieve full enlightenment when your house collapses around you.
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: vexaph0d on July 19, 2006, 09:57:11 pm
By the way... Even Poetic Terrorism and HIMEOBS' days are numbered.  The Machine and the cabbages that fill corporate marketing divisions are already hot on the tracks of Guerilla Advertising.

Soon, even weird shit that shouldn't make any sense at all will only reinforce the Machine, even if it isn't intended to sell Product.

I think everyone here has, if not a homogenous opinion, at least a general consensus that there IS the Machine, and that its candy-coated teeth will (and very often, do) grind people into paste.

Stop it?  Can't.  Destroy it?  Not unless you build a bigger, badder Machine(tm).  This is just basic Eristic vs. Aneristic anyway, but the crunch for us is that the Machine is in a position to stamp out the Eristic almost completely.

[begin crazy talk]

I'm probably a paranoid asshat, as always, but I think it's entirely likely that the Machine, if it is an organism like has been posited above, will eventually 'wake up,' or achieve consciousness.  If we are members of the Machine, and we are aware of its existence, then is that not already a kind of consciousness?  If full consciousness happens in the Machine, I'm fairly certain that we're fucked, even though I'm not entirely sure what the hell I'm talking about.

[end crazy talk]
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: That Guy on July 19, 2006, 11:04:18 pm
Question for this identification business:

What parts of the world, specifically, do you find the Machine‚Ñ¢ most apparent in? Where are its strongest manifestations, where does it thrive?

EDIT: Make that 'when', as well. Are there points in history where the Machine‚Ñ¢ was stronger in certain places and weaker in others?
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: The Littlest Ubermensch on July 19, 2006, 11:05:09 pm
The Machine is connections.
Anything resulting from the idea of connections is the Machine. Examples: law, government, infrastructure, unions, marriage, love, and language.

At risk of being very, very cliche, it is the Aneristic principle. I agree with that section of the Principia wholeheartedly. I really have nothing to add on that matter.

When it comes to somehow fighting certain elements of it, I, in my present condition of being cynical and tired, could not give a shit. The world is in a continual state of decay and movement towards a crystalline and austere hellscape. I go to school to be forced into a police state for 7 hours of my day, with the rest of my day devoted to preparing for more abuse the next day by resting and finishing work, with a weekend of frantic recreation in preparation for the coming week. The Machine has bought the counterculture and stolen it's symbols and mutilated their ideals into 3 minute sound bites called rock music and advertising ploys. The closest a kid of my generation is ever going to get to truly rebelling is finding ways to avoid the system, while looking away and falling asleep when people talk about fighting it.

The Machine will most likely assimilate me at some point. I hope to only end up being used as a negative example for kids in the process of indoctrination, so they can all point and say, "You can't be that guy, and everything he says is wrong." If I'm lucky I'll be assassinated.
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: AFK on July 20, 2006, 12:36:41 am
Quote from: That Guy
Question for this identification business:

What parts of the world, specifically, do you find the Machine‚Ñ¢ most apparent in? Where are its strongest manifestations, where does it thrive?

EDIT: Make that 'when', as well. Are there points in history where the Machine‚Ñ¢ was stronger in certain places and weaker in others?


short answer: everywhere

However, I would say it is most noticeable where people have the luxury to notice it.  

Consider the Hierarchy of Needs.  Someone living in a "third world" country where 99% of your wakeful existence is dedicated to the basic needs of food and shelter.  Those people don't have time to think about such things.  Not on their radar.  Not important.  If they starve to death what difference does it make whether The Machine(tm) was part of it or not.

Here, in American/Western Civilization we, on average, are better off.  We have our basic needs pretty much under control and therefore can spend our mental resources on other areas.  So we can notice The Machine(tm) and recognize its existence.

But, whether recognized or not, I feel it exists everwhere.  It's everywhere there is human greed and corruption or the abilities for such things to manifest.  Anywhere there is a need by a few to control the many, whether through good intentions or ill.  People with good intentions can fuck over a population as much as those with ill through incompetence and short-sightedness and poor judgement as to what constitutes "good intentions."  Some people don't want a safe America if it means someone thumbing through their bank accounts and library records.
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Triple Zero on July 20, 2006, 01:25:44 am
Quote from: vex
The Machine is the large-scale perversion of human society into a self-interested Con, whose Effect (if not its entire Purpose), *** is the blinding of people into pouring themselves into it doing things they hate and things that kill them prematurely, and fooling them into thinking that there is nothing but The Machine.

i put some *** there at the place where i think you're going wrong. not just wrong, you're stating the status quo but before the *** it was more general. maybe you could try again? (i'm drunk so i can't)

also i need to quote the cube (i did it before but here goes again:)

there is no conspiracy
nobody is in charge
big brother is not watching me
it's a headless blunder
operating under the illusion
of a master plan.

(reading further)

reminder to self: read this thread when sober.

another glass of rose? yes please :) :twisted:
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Cain on July 20, 2006, 03:02:57 pm
Quote from: LMNO
The Machine‚Ñ¢ is what makes people send other people to diee for abstractions.

The Machine‚Ñ¢ is what drives people to spend 40 hours a week doing tasks they dislike.

The Machine‚Ñ¢ is what encourages people to want things they don't need, and makes them feel guilty for not having.

The Machine‚Ñ¢ wants you to be in debt to a corporation.

The Machine‚Ñ¢ is a punishing father figure.

The Machine‚Ñ¢ beats you up for your lunch money.

The Machine‚Ñ¢ knows what is RIGHT, and what is WRONG.





What is The Machine‚Ñ¢ for you?


The System.  Why things are as they are and not as something else.  The unthinking arrogance of the status quo, the "way things are done" and how they all interlock to make your life an unpleasant and meaningless existence.
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Triple Zero on July 20, 2006, 03:37:04 pm
Quote from: Z¬?
Personally, I'd like to be able to EAT without feeding a vast corporate empire... and its not that its impossible to do, its just hideously impractical.

perhaps to read for you: possum living (http://www.f4.ca/text/possumliving.htm) (ok this was in 1978)
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Triple Zero on July 20, 2006, 03:57:23 pm
Quote from: vexaph0d
I'm probably a paranoid asshat, as always, but I think it's entirely likely that the Machine, if it is an organism like has been posited above, will eventually 'wake up,' or achieve consciousness. If we are members of the Machine, and we are aware of its existence, then is that not already a kind of consciousness? If full consciousness happens in the Machine, I'm fairly certain that we're fucked, even though I'm not entirely sure what the hell I'm talking about.

no. if it will achieve consciousness we will probably not notice because its consciousness is at a whole different level than ours. perhaps a psychic could, but only with severe risk of head asplody.
but i don't think it's even anywhere near that level of complexity. i think it would need a lot more "control" than it currently has, we'd have to be real mindless drones in order for it to function consciously, but that's just guesswork. from the way it's acting, i would judge it's level of awareness somewhere like .. an anthill (considering that a big anthill is theoretically a single organism).

to RWHN: that was an awesome piece of writing there! i'd give you mittens if i weren't too hungover to actually fetch them.

also, what we are trying to accomplish does not necessarily have to work *against* the machine. the living organism is not "alive" because of what it is made of, but because of the pattern which it has made of itself. if we try to destroy the machine or work against it in a manner hurtful to it, it will lash out and defend itself. even the simplest organisms have defence mechanisms in order just to stay "alive", which means continual existence of its pattern (because the matter will stay there, alive or dead). we know a lot of the machine's defence mechanisms, but there are probably also more subtle ones. if we can find any way in which the machine is allowed to live, preserve its pattern, then it will not "care" very much. the solution lies in the transition to a different machine, one that is benevolent to human beings.
the problem is that it's a two-way problem, more freedom for the individual human beings means less complexity of pattern for the machine. it will probably not like being "dumbed down" in such a matter.  ... i'm lost again.
Title: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Mangrove on July 20, 2006, 06:26:50 pm
The Machine wants us to be fat, stupid and quiet.

(Unless you want to rebel, in which case The Machine wants you to purchase and consume their 'off the peg' rebellion.)

The Machine makes people yearn for 'Golden Ages' which didn't exist.

The Machine is often about convenience.

The Machine can invent solutions to problems we never had.

The Machine uses 'traditions', 'values' and 'morals' to validate their prejudices, discrimination and general laziness.

The Machine believes that if the general public knew anything of import, there would be 'mass panic/hysteria'.

The Machine does not appear to recognize that plenty of people already know things of import.

The Machine loves to polarize situations in their favour (us/them...good/evil etc) but immediately reverts to obfusification & smoke screens the moment someone notices.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: PopeLoUDICRUCE on August 12, 2006, 09:05:22 pm
 :evil: The Machine is a three pound universe. Do you know what that means?
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: the other anonymous on August 13, 2006, 09:27:23 am
:evil: The Machine is a three pound universe. Do you know what that means?

http://www.answerpoint.org/reading_room/book_list.asp?sort=101&list=1989

Google knows all.

...unless it's off-line, in which case, it probably doesn't exist anyway.

-toa,
goggle google
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: PopeLoUDICRUCE on August 13, 2006, 05:29:03 pm
:evil: The Machine is a three pound universe. Do you know what that means?

http://www.answerpoint.org/reading_room/book_list.asp?sort=101&list=1989

Google knows all.

...unless it's off-line, in which case, it probably doesn't exist anyway.

-toa,
goggle google

Ah...Yes I gnow what it means but this is a rhetorical question...

Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: the other anonymous on August 14, 2006, 06:27:26 am
:evil: The Machine is a three pound universe. Do you know what that means?

http://www.answerpoint.org/reading_room/book_list.asp?sort=101&list=1989

Google knows all.

...unless it's off-line, in which case, it probably doesn't exist anyway.

-toa,
goggle google

Ah...Yes I gnow what it means but this is a rhetorical question...


Odd, I don't remember saying that...  8-)
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on August 22, 2006, 11:45:44 pm
It's the lingering facial expression that almost hides the honest reaction.

It's how you return to where you sat last time.

It's when you noticed falsity in yourself but couldn't tell where it came from.

It's a heavy coat worn in warm weather.

It's the look in the eyes when their focus isn't what's being looked at.

Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: davznothere on August 23, 2006, 06:18:01 pm
it's what i use to cut the lawn
toast my english muffin .....
it's what i use to type this post
it's .... it's .....

i need to whack it i'll be right back .....
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on August 23, 2006, 06:19:55 pm
Deep.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: davznothere on August 23, 2006, 06:20:54 pm
Deep.

strait from the kiddie pool mo'nuka
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: AFK on August 23, 2006, 06:22:58 pm
 :-o
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on August 23, 2006, 06:30:33 pm
Deep.

strait from the kiddie pool mo'nuka


Yup.  It's heavy introspective thinking like this that makes a great endorsement for psychedilic drugs.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: AFK on August 23, 2006, 06:43:08 pm
seriously, davy, you should review this thread and give us your thoughts on The Machine.  drop the schtick and join the discussions. 
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: davznothere on August 23, 2006, 07:42:21 pm
seriously, davy, you should review this thread and give us your thoughts on The Machine.  drop the schtick and join the discussions. 

kk ..... i don't see the machine though i know what it is you speak of ..... i look at it instead as the Illuminati and i see it as a war on the consciousness from all sides ..... the age old battle of good vs. evil ..... i think they use old magics derived from strange 4th & 5th dimensional beings that they can summon and allow to enter their bodies ..... they have been training and raiseing each generation of children in this family(s) to believe they are destined to rule the world yadda yadda etc. the interbreed with each other and they rule everything from some huge mansion in the alps or someplace like that ..... they infiltrate everything and control everything and they build this illusion before us ..... and some of us just pull the wool over our own eyes instead .....

the illuminati are this family that are soooooo old, tracing their roots to egypt (or furthur) ..... some of us are a wake and a ware too so we see through the illusion that has been cast over the world by this very old family using very darkside powers, we see through it and start making conscious decions to change it by just about any means we can .....

the machine is an illusion and you are your own prisoner within it

i really think that everything can be fixed with just a thought ..... it's just that we all have to think it at the same time
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on August 23, 2006, 07:49:26 pm
LOL, thread ruined.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: AFK on August 23, 2006, 08:29:07 pm
RWHN,
should leave well enough alone.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LHX on August 23, 2006, 09:11:12 pm
seriously, davy, you should review this thread and give us your thoughts on The Machine.  drop the schtick and join the discussions. 

kk ..... i don't see the machine though i know what it is you speak of ..... i look at it instead as the Illuminati and i see it as a war on the consciousness from all sides ..... the age old battle of good vs. evil ..... i think they use old magics derived from strange 4th & 5th dimensional beings that they can summon and allow to enter their bodies ..... they have been training and raiseing each generation of children in this family(s) to believe they are destined to rule the world yadda yadda etc. the interbreed with each other and they rule everything from some huge mansion in the alps or someplace like that ..... they infiltrate everything and control everything and they build this illusion before us ..... and some of us just pull the wool over our own eyes instead .....

the illuminati are this family that are soooooo old, tracing their roots to egypt (or furthur) ..... some of us are a wake and a ware too so we see through the illusion that has been cast over the world by this very old family using very darkside powers, we see through it and start making conscious decions to change it by just about any means we can .....

the machine is an illusion and you are your own prisoner within it

i really think that everything can be fixed with just a thought ..... it's just that we all have to think it at the same time

dave is not here

possibly stuck in 1999
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on November 03, 2006, 06:10:09 pm
Cheers for drawing my attention to this thread LMNO. Here's my 2 cents:

When I first head you discordian guys talking of The MachineTM I figured I knew the thing you were referring to. I think I was right, after a fashion. I refer to this entity as Demiurge. It's the entity that produces reality for you. There are two positions you can be in - a slave to the machine (creature of the wheel) or it's master (a bhoddivista) by whom the machine is seen as servant.

The majority of the human race belong to the former category. There is much common ground between the two - both are part of and rely on the machine to provide their experiential reality but only the latter group are aware of this. Unfortunately there is, at point of apex, only one machine and the operations of majority ignorance have made it what it is. It should be noted that the difference between bhoddivista and COTW are akin to the driver and passenger of a vehicle. The fact that you are the driver does not detract from the fact that the vehicle is still an inneficient, pollutant spewing leviathan with dodgy steering and no fucking brakes.

There are two keys to 'fixing' or improving the machine.

1) create more bhoddivista's

2) change the 'faulty' or unwanted operating components

I don't think going head to head with the machine is the answer. Destroying the fundamental structure of reality is tantamount to mutually assured destruction. What we need is an overhaul and that's going to take a lot more mechanics. I have a great deal of repect for the discordian movement,alongside many others which I view as generally positive influences in this respect. I do have concerns about the conception that some of the recently released prisoners of the BIP may form regarding the notion that the machine must be destroyed.

This said I still think waking the sleepers is likely to do more good than harm. I hope that I don't turn out to be wrong in this assumtion.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on November 03, 2006, 06:16:40 pm
in keeping with Descordian theories, every person's interpretation of the BIP, The Machine™, and the System® is inherently different than the others.

I like your buddhist-tinged interpretation, though.

The Boddhisatva idea is a nice one, but how do you go about creating them?  Its' a lot of hard work.

I feel that if you can at least get people to see the Machine‚Ñ¢, and what's behind it (BIP), they might not be able to "steer" it (here, I think the metaphor begins to drift, btw), but at least they can see what leads people to the Machine‚Ñ¢.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: AFK on November 03, 2006, 06:19:03 pm
Actually, I would say The Machine(tm) IS The Master.  To say otherwise would entail some lone entity or collective controlling The Machine(tm)  I do not believe this to be so, or at least, not anymore.  I see it to be completely autonomous and to employ its own subservients (e.g. The Con, The System, etc.)
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on November 03, 2006, 06:24:12 pm
I see The Machine‚Ñ¢ as mindless, in the sense that (to me) it represents human behavior when they can no longer see the cell that they exist in.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Cain on November 03, 2006, 06:25:22 pm
I always had the Machine as smaller - the incestuous crossover of the media, government, military, academia and corporations who make up the top of society.  The CoN is the overall thing, the attitude of pinkness and fear of change that fuels the Machine.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on November 03, 2006, 06:29:35 pm
Interesting.

I have as the heirarchy:

Black Iron Prison --> Machine™ --> System® --> CoN.

That is, we are in the BIP, failing to see that creates the Machine‚Ñ¢, and then the System¬Æ is subconciously created to rationalize the horrific things the Machine‚Ñ¢ does.  The CoN is then used to manipulate the System¬Æ.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Cain on November 03, 2006, 06:33:21 pm
I would have gone

BiP  - Imperfect perception leads to
CoN - attitude of fear of difference, which leads to
The Machine - attempts to control perception and what people do, which leads to
The System - which rationalizes such actions (but is also a part of the Machine, media and academics, mostly)
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on November 03, 2006, 06:33:50 pm

The Boddhisatva idea is a nice one, but how do you go about creating them?  Its' a lot of hard work.

I called the plan Operation Mass Enlightenment. We gave up after a while - couldn't figure out a way to pull it off. I do my bit, whenever I can, on a very small scale. Eventually, with enough of us doing it, maybe it'll happen just like that new age wanker described in the Celestine Prophesy - a 'Critical Mass' of enlightened individuals will be reached.

It's what the bible describes as the apocalypse (the metaphor hods true on a global as well as an individual scale) Wishful thinking at best but when faced with the choice I'll go optimism every time. Knowing the universe the way I do the machine cannot destroy us in the same sense that we cannot destroy it but it can make our reality pretty loathsome if it functions imperfectly. Even the machine cannot fuck with the principle of karma - it has to spit out as many white things as it does black.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on November 03, 2006, 06:35:18 pm
I would have gone

BiP  - Imperfect perception leads to
CoN - attitude of fear of difference, which leads to
The Machine - attempts to control perception and what people do, which leads to
The System - which rationalizes such actions (but is also a part of the Machine, media and academics, mostly)


I'd like to read more about your theories, Cain.  I see a lot of wisodom in there.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on November 03, 2006, 06:35:43 pm
(here, I think the metaphor begins to drift, btw)

Metaphors are a bastard that way but I trust it served the purpose it was intended to illustrate.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Cain on November 03, 2006, 06:36:47 pm
I would have gone

BiP  - Imperfect perception leads to
CoN - attitude of fear of difference, which leads to
The Machine - attempts to control perception and what people do, which leads to
The System - which rationalizes such actions (but is also a part of the Machine, media and academics, mostly)


I'd like to read more about your theories, Cain.  I see a lot of wisodom in there.

Thanks.  I'll develop it more.  Gimme time to flesh it out....
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Cain on November 03, 2006, 07:00:50 pm
As I see it, the BIP is a problem of perception as much as anything else.  Perception is imperfect, but humans fear chaos and entropy and what that would entail, the dark terrors of Eris, Deimos and Phobos and the Kakodaimones.   So with imperfect information, a structure of how the world works is built, a theoretical framework which by its nature of its a prioir assumptions is limiting in the extreme.

However, no matter how smart you are, mistakes will be made and these will be noticed over time. Fear of entropy and chaos returns tenfold.  The CoN becomes apparent again, much more so then at the first stage, the fear of change undermining the system.  Those at the top become fearful.  But a clever observer will realize this is of little consequence so long as the current framework is widely believed.

In that way the Machine comes into existence.  The Machine takes the elite of the society it exists in and welds them into a super-class at the very top.  Their job is to enforce the worldview that has been decided on, be it neo-liberalism or Islam or Christianity.  Because the political elite are part of the machine, they benefit from keeping the status quo in place.  Businesses only profit from certain types of disruption, far away from centres of capital, so they bankroll said parties to keep the stability and do them favours.  The military turns from national defence to a tool to break open foreign markets and disrupt foreign monopolies.

The System is comprised of academics and journalists within the media, for the most part.  Their job is to create a compelling ideological and narrative to explain the actions of the Machine, which if were shown via their own records would lead most people to believe they were simply cynical reactionaries.  However, there is much crossover, with academics often informing policy and belonging to the same corporations that bankroll political parties, as well as working within the areas of the shadow government of the Pentagon and intelligence services.

Throughout all the Aneristic Delusion reigns supreme.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on November 03, 2006, 07:06:18 pm
Do you mean to imply that this process is concious?

something that's coming through your observations are words like "job".

I see the whole process as more or less mechanical, until you arrive at the CoN(LMNO Version), in which humans are able to manipulate.  Up to that point, there is little control the pinks, greys, and merhumes have over what is happening to them.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Cain on November 03, 2006, 07:13:38 pm
To a degree, yes.  The Machine, as I portray it, is very conscious.  Its literally a given within certain areas of policy analysis.  Among themselves, the academics will pick apart philosophical differences, but when confronted with outsiders, the choices narrow down between a very fine range, all of which suit the status quo.

The British government, for example is the largest single buyer of advertising within the UK.  The Pentagon has started its own propaganda service.  Can it really be doubted?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Triple Zero on November 03, 2006, 07:30:18 pm
cain, that's very nicely put! :mittens: (the longer post)
i agree with just about anything you said there.

except i wonder about my own theory. the one where the Machine is actually an organism (or set of organisms) of some vague metaphorical/ethereal kind. it all fits together with what you just said. the bit where it creates the society-elite, puts them in a place of power, it's just a natural way for the Machine to keep itself intact. religion is another way to keep its components/organs/cells (people) in check. for it, religion is merely some kind of neurotransmitter, and its nerves(/blood circulation/lymphe) system is of course economic money flows, mass-media, communication, etc. it's a creature that exists in memes, like we exist in cells and molecules.
and IMO this is the natural way patterns in complex systems go, up up up to higher and higher complexity, every large bit will at some moment be absorbed into a higher complex system and function as merely a cogwheel. this has pretty much been happening all the time, but we, humans, are in fact the first conscious cogwheels, the ones that can notice what is going on and we can say STOP.

that is about the point where i wonder how useful my metaphore is. cause what you are saying seems very accurate and to the point, and even points out some tangible things, targets.
i just wonder how intertwined and inevitable all these happenings are.

sorry this must be a completely unclear posting. we should all get together for a few days and drink some beers in a smokey pub somewhere.

(edit, written in notepad, copypasted twice)
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: AFK on November 03, 2006, 07:37:20 pm
How's next week sound?  I'm thinking Tuesday night will be a good night to start. 
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on November 03, 2006, 07:41:08 pm
cain, that's very nicely put! :mittens: (the longer post)
i agree with just about anything you said there.

except i wonder about my own theory. the one where the Machine is actually an organism (or set of organisms) of some vague metaphorical/ethereal kind. it all fits together with what you just said. the bit where it creates the society-elite, puts them in a place of power, it's just a natural way for the Machine to keep itself intact. religion is another way to keep its components/organs/cells (people) in check. for it, religion is merely some kind of neurotransmitter, and its nerves(/blood circulation/lymphe) system is of course economic money flows, mass-media, communication, etc. it's a creature that exists in memes, like we exist in cells and molecules.
and IMO this is the natural way patterns in complex systems go, up up up to higher and higher complexity, every large bit will at some moment be absorbed into a higher complex system and function as merely a cogwheel. this has pretty much been happening all the time, but we, humans, are in fact the first conscious cogwheels, the ones that can notice what is going on and we can say STOP.

that is about the point where i wonder how useful my metaphore is. cause what you are saying seems very accurate and to the point, and even points out some tangible things, targets.
i just wonder how intertwined and inevitable all these happenings are.

sorry this must be a completely unclear posting. we should all get together for a few days and drink some beers in a smokey pub somewhere.

(edit, written in notepad, copypasted twice)

I equate the mind of the machine to the mind of god. God, in this sense, is mentally ill. I've cured my own mental illness I'm pretty sure I can cure god's too.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on November 03, 2006, 07:43:28 pm
Hmmm... The Mind of God is a bit esoteric for me at this point.  Could you clarify?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Triple Zero on November 03, 2006, 07:49:39 pm
sillycybin: you mean in a kind of ghost-in-the-machine kind of way (like skynet)? why would you say this mind is mentally ill?
apart from that it's functioning in a way that we dislike, i see no reason for the ghost in the machine to really care for the humans that it exists in/out of. it's not like it doesn't have more than enough of them or anything.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on November 03, 2006, 08:06:44 pm
Hmmm... The Mind of God is a bit esoteric for me at this point.  Could you clarify?

Mind as a side effect of the operation of a complex system. The thoughts it thinks are alien to us but, because we are all the same system it is not completely outwith our grasp. speaking personally, and I wouldn't discount the whole thing as a complete delusion, I was surprised just how much we had in common.

sillycybin: you mean in a kind of ghost-in-the-machine kind of way (like skynet)? why would you say this mind is mentally ill?
apart from that it's functioning in a way that we dislike, i see no reason for the ghost in the machine to really care for the humans that it exists in/out of. it's not like it doesn't have more than enough of them or anything.

The constituent components are in dissaray. In this paradigm God's mental illness could be viewed after a fashion akin to a chemical imbalance, affecting the overall psychology. It should care about us in the same way we should care about our braincells. What I found was that it didn't see us as being the cause of it's mind anymore than we generally tend view our complex material interactions as causing anything like sentience.

This is the abyss of which the cabbalists speak. IMO both sides would benefit a bridging of the gulf.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: BADGE OF HONOR on November 03, 2006, 09:27:22 pm
I'm going to completely disagree and say that The Machine isn't malign at all.  The Machine doesn't want anything.  The Machine is merely the latest adaptation of humanity.


Think about how we evolved.  For millions of years, our species wandered about in small family groups, never staying in one place too long, generally meeting maybe a couple of hundred people in their lifetimes.  I'm certain all sorts of bizarre, fucked up behavior happened even then, but in the meantime some biological baselines were set.

Then comes agriculture, as the human population grew and resources dwindled.  Agriculture means much harder work but a steady, if bland, diet.  This leads to more people.  Sedentism alone improves the birth rate, and combined with a (theoretically) guaranteed food source, you get a revolution.  Generation after generation, the farmers outbreed the hunters, and eventually they take over.  They aggregate in larger and larger groups, take more and more land for themselves.  Pretty soon you have cities.  With agriculture comes wealth, and with wealth comes social class, and with social class comes discontent.  Agriculture spawned organized, large scale violence, and agriculture spawned organized, large scale religion.

Remember, we evolved in small family groups.  Living with lots of people is very stressfull at an unconscious level.  We are constantly striving to escape, and the best way we know is by accumulating wealth and building distance between us and the rest of the world.  Thus The Machine.  You may call it a biological imperative (though I wouldn't).  It is the unthinking coping system that we all contain and carry out simply in order to survive this world with our psyches intact.  If you put enough rats in a cage they start eating each other.  This is what we're doing every day, only we don't even know it.

The Machine has been worse.  Take the Aztecs, for example.  Their entire economy was based on conquering, enslaving, and sacrificing the surrounding countryside.  Sometimes the peasants sold their children into slavery just to ensure their survival, because they were one bad harvest away from mass starvation.  Their entire world was filled with enemies, and that is how they fell so quickly to the conquistadores.  Their Machine killed them in a matter of months. 

The Machine will never go away.  Even if some catastrophe happens that takes out most of the population, you cannot uninvent the wheel.  It is a stereotypic motion, a continuous unconscious action that serves to relieve stress, and outlet for what cannot be expressed.  Even if you are aware of The Machine, you cannot subvert yourself because every interaction you have with others is flavored, tainted, impregnated by The Machine.  Every rote action with the store clerk, every message left on the answering machine, every negotiation on the freeway, every sidelong glance at passersby on the sidewalk, they are all systems and methods of The Machine.  And when you go somewhere else, and you feel so foreign and alienated, that is because you've moved to a different section of The Machine where the comforting routines are subtly strange. 

I don't have any suggestions on how to deal with The Machine.  I just don't think it's some sort of evil beast waiting in the shadows, grinding us down...to what end?  It's just human behavior in the face of overpopulation.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: BADGE OF HONOR on November 03, 2006, 11:12:12 pm
After some pondering, I'd have to say that existence as a self-aware being is inherently psychologically damaging, and The Machine is part of the defense mechanism.  It just isn't a very good one.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 04, 2006, 01:22:11 am
After some pondering, I'd have to say that existence as a self-aware being is inherently psychologically damaging, and The Machine is part of the defense mechanism.  It just isn't a very good one.

I like it.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Triple Zero on November 04, 2006, 12:11:23 pm
Mind as a side effect of the operation of a complex system. The thoughts it thinks are alien to us but, because we are all the same system it is not completely outwith our grasp. speaking personally, and I wouldn't discount the whole thing as a complete delusion, I was surprised just how much we had in common.

yes!

Quote from: sillycybin
sillycybin: you mean in a kind of ghost-in-the-machine kind of way (like skynet)? why would you say this mind is mentally ill?
apart from that it's functioning in a way that we dislike, i see no reason for the ghost in the machine to really care for the humans that it exists in/out of. it's not like it doesn't have more than enough of them or anything.

The constituent components are in dissaray. In this paradigm God's mental illness could be viewed after a fashion akin to a chemical imbalance, affecting the overall psychology. It should care about us in the same way we should care about our braincells. What I found was that it didn't see us as being the cause of it's mind anymore than we generally tend view our complex material interactions as causing anything like sentience.

This is the abyss of which the cabbalists speak. IMO both sides would benefit a bridging of the gulf.

hmmmm that is a very interesting approach, i like the way that sounds. so basically our task is to bring the Machine in touch with itself, to "find itself" in a certain way, enlightenment for the Machine, or at least a significant improvement in its consciousness and/or yoga, feeling for its components.

to contrast, other people have said that the Machine is doing these bad things because it just wants to stay in existence. that it abuses its components because it is afraid (in a metaphorical way) that it be destroyed. in fact, like some of us are trying to do.

thanks sillycybin, you have shed a new and interesting light on the problem!
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Triple Zero on November 04, 2006, 12:18:01 pm
btw i also agree with what RBG said. it fits easily together with sillycybin's theory, mine and also mostly with Cain's.

i like the idea that if
Quote from: RBG
The Machine will never go away
it may be the best idea to try and turn the Machine to at least treat its "constituent components" in the most humane way possible.

it gives some kind of gleam of hope. on the other hand, was it not "hope" that was the most evil thing in pandora's box? ;-)
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Cain on November 04, 2006, 12:55:16 pm
Or there is the Jeffersonian/Leninist approach of the never ending revolution.  The Machine is dangerous as it becomes entrenched, as ideas and capital and other resources (not all tangible) accumulate at the top.  In modern society, the more you have, the more you can have.  If I have ¬£3000, I am simply not going to be able to make as much as someone with ¬£3,000,000, no matter how wisely I invest.  Its a simple fact.  And money is passed down via family lines, as is service within certain parts of the military or intelligence world and public government.  Its not surprising, but its hardly healthy either.

So every generation or so, an uprising that uproots the Machine before it becomes entrenched.  I'm not talking about a retarded wealth distribution program or anything like that (Communism has never appealed to me) but simply to remove people from power and give some new people a chance.

I know we have debated the Athenian model before, and decided it too instable for modern society (though of perfect instability for someone of Discordian temperment), but what if those instabilities could be corrected?  Government does seem to be trying to return to a city based level, as the communications revolution on the economy continues to unfold.  It has to be said, in favour of the Athenian model, it encourages participation of all its citizens, limited though they were, in its process.  It also made it very easy for anyone to be within government, for a while at least and had a strongly enforced Constitution, which would be necessary to stop the increased chances of individual abuse.  Because government service is so common among the population, the problems of entrenched power are resolved within the political sphere.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Triple Zero on November 04, 2006, 01:32:44 pm
you mean the athenian model as i talked about in this (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=9829.0) thread?
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Cain on November 04, 2006, 01:41:28 pm
Yeah, the one where I disagreed!  I don't know, I think there has to be a way to find a compromise between the two models.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Triple Zero on November 04, 2006, 02:51:47 pm
Yeah, the one where I disagreed! 

 :-D

Quote
I don't know, I think there has to be a way to find a compromise between the two models.

blah. (while typing i just finished an infuriatingly annoying MSN conversation with my "boss" about declarable hours laced with horrible unprofessionality and consequently have no more energy to write an intelligent reply. MWEH)
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Cain on November 04, 2006, 02:56:01 pm
Welcome to the world.  I'm writing an essay/talk/essay plan on Al-Qaeda as we speak.  Admittedly, since all three are on the same topic its not too bad, but I have to go over everything and seperate it for the different assignments.

What do you do as a job?  I though you were in University still?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Triple Zero on November 04, 2006, 03:21:04 pm
my mood:
 :argh!: :argh!: :argh!: :argh!: :argh!: :argh!: :argh!: :argh!: :argh!: :argh!:
(oh i just LOVE that emoticon)

besides studying, i somehow gotta pay for my college and food and such. the government isn't giving me any money anymore (in my 9th year .. can't blame em). so i'm working as a freelance webdeveloper. mostly PHP (which sucks) and a teensy bit of javascript (which is a happy fun toy).
the problem is this guy (my "boss") set up this little webdesign company. he seemed very nice, but i should have known better when he told me he was a sports-teacher at a highschool that got kicked out into an outplacement traject. don't have much work-experience overall, so i didn't expect working with people so far below my level could be so tiresome and grinding.
basically anything anybody at that company does, I can do better. to lead a webdesign company you need to know about Software Engineering, you need to know how you can talk to your clients and convert their layman babble to a technical specification. i studied to do that. i can write better HTML and CSS than the guy that's supposed to do it (he didn't know about semantic HTML, nor the difference between ID and CLASS attributes). i completely pwn him in PHP. which becomes VERY tedious if you need to incorporate his write-once-never-look-back code into your well thought-out content management system. only the company's graphics design guy is actually better at what he does than me.
then the pay is about 3x too less for any serious freelance programmer. i'm so done there. i'll get my pay, i'll finish the 2 or 3 projects i have there (hey i promised), and i'll find some REAL programmers work.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Cain on November 04, 2006, 03:23:26 pm
Ouch.  Yeah, I can see how working with someone who isn't really up on the area of expertise could grind at the nerves....

I usually work in the holdiays, which literally sustains me for the 8 months I need it to (and not a week longer).  My work ethic is terrible, I couldn't study and work.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on November 04, 2006, 03:52:38 pm
hmmmm that is a very interesting approach, i like the way that sounds. so basically our task is to bring the Machine in touch with itself, to "find itself" in a certain way, enlightenment for the Machine, or at least a significant improvement in its consciousness and/or yoga, feeling for its components.

to contrast, other people have said that the Machine is doing these bad things because it just wants to stay in existence. that it abuses its components because it is afraid (in a metaphorical way) that it be destroyed. in fact, like some of us are trying to do.

thanks sillycybin, you have shed a new and interesting light on the problem!

There is another aspect which bears mention here, one which I can only describe as 'fractal'. The whole paradigm seems to repeat as one 'zooms out' of this picture, malchut becomes keter, again and again. The components form a mind which forms components which form a mind.... This is an (potentially infinite) extension of the 'as above so below' formula which would go some way to explaining the madjyickqule principle of creating change in the macrocosm, via the micro.

I wrote down a meditation a few years ago which goes some way to illustrate what I'm talking about. If you haven't had enough of my lunacy by now then reading this oughta do it.

... I left the constraints of the anima behind me and thus, released from my earthly bondage, flew high above my body, an arrow of pure spirit, a shard of brilliant light, returning to the source from which it fell. I ascended, facing backwards, seeing the earth grow smaller, gradually receding as the light from the stars paled its twinkling beauty.
    And the stars became more distant, gradually merging into the vast, swirling nebula of our galaxy which, as I flew, ever outward, was joined by a multitude of others, each of them receding to a tiny pinprick of light, no bigger than a star, but in such greater multitude than our heavens display. As I flew back the galaxies shrank in the distance to the size of atoms, filling the void untill the impression they created was the play of light on the gently rippling surface of a lake, and in that mirror I saw my own face, staring back at me.
   A tiny piece of sediment, a billion times the size of the Milky Way, stirred up by the soft current of the water, flashed briefly in the light, catching my eye. Then a voice, which resonated from all around and within me, deep booming, stern but, at the same time, patient and caring, with a hint of laughter in it's notes;
   "GET BACK IN YOUR TREE YOU CHEEKY LITTLE MONKEY!!"
   I made my reflection stick out his tongue and the universe resonated to the sound of laughter. I dived into the water, sloughing off my body, like a little pea of conciousness ejecting itself from the pod. I suddenly wondered how I was going to find my way back home. "Oh well," I thought, "I've got eternity, and it's bound to be in here somewhere."
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on November 06, 2006, 01:58:45 pm
I just wanted to re-jack and say that Badger's take on this is prettyy fucking excellent.


Hey, RBG, do you mind if I include your interpretation in an updated version of the pamphlet?
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Benaclypse on November 06, 2006, 08:26:12 pm
The machine is the writhing mass of society.  It's a matrix, and its implications are indeed massive.  It reflects social ambitions at every angle, and amplifies them.  If and when the people are good, the effects of the Machine will be nothing short of miraculous.  The effects of neonanotechnology on our bodies will be purely beneficial and the singularity will be a sun, not a black hole.  If the people are malevolent, which they tend to be, the same technologies will present adversities more dangerous than the nucular bomb.  The new technology will be used for tyrannical and evil purposes.  The machine can be a God and/or a Devil.  It can enslave and murder us or messiah us.  Chances are, it will be both.  It always has been.  But it can and will change.  Will we be able to reprogram a demon glitch into an angelic anomoly?  Will we be able to reprogram the Devil in the details into God-- nay, something better than God?  Something beyond threats of genocidal war, however holy?  Hackers can do a little tweeking, but the Machinetm is constantly upgrading its virus scanners.  We don't want to hack the Machinetm with viruses.  We want to reprogram the virus that's already in the Machine.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: BADGE OF HONOR on November 06, 2006, 08:27:51 pm
I just wanted to re-jack and say that Badger's take on this is prettyy fucking excellent.


Hey, RBG, do you mind if I include your interpretation in an updated version of the pamphlet?

Go ahead.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on November 06, 2006, 08:30:21 pm
Thanks.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Benaclypse on November 17, 2006, 12:15:15 am
The Machine is a glitch in the Machine.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: the other anonymous on November 17, 2006, 04:37:25 am
The Machine is a glitch in the Machine.

The glitch is a Machine within the Machine.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Dr. Cow Ass on November 17, 2006, 05:34:10 am
I apoligize if this was covered earlier in this thread, but is the Machine a term taken from One flew over the Cuckoo's nest?
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Cain on November 17, 2006, 05:40:29 am
Probably not.  Its most likely filtered down through leftist rhetoric and anarchist slogans which have informed counter-culture thought as to the nature of social relations in postmodern capitalist states.

Or something.

It may have, but I havent even read that book, so....*shrugs*
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Jenne on November 17, 2006, 05:55:08 am
It sounds like something that has come out of a post-industrial era, where the machine vs. man myth/meme was so prevalent.  Say...1890's to 1930's...

These days, if the picture were redrawn, I'd say it'd look molecular, bacterial or even viral in nature.  Biological weaponry, so to speak.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 17, 2006, 06:41:59 am
Probably not.  Its most likely filtered down through leftist rhetoric and anarchist slogans which have informed counter-culture thought as to the nature of social relations in postmodern capitalist states.

Or something.

It may have, but I havent even read that book, so....*shrugs*

Ah that reminds me.

I hate people who talk about "The Machine" IRL. 

9 times out of 10 it's a quasireligious atheist who will talk about "freedom" in similarly vague terms. 

I like a lot of what's being said here, but I think you're pissing into the wind if you think you can bring any sort of real legitimacy to "The Machine."  It's the domain of half-wits.

Coin a new motherfucking phrase or put a hot iron in your ass.  Please.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Cain on November 17, 2006, 06:49:19 am
I agree.  It does sound like a meeting of 14 year old anarchists ITT at times....
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on November 17, 2006, 07:33:37 am
Pink Floyd invented it - track 2 on Wish you were here album - Welcome to the Machine
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Starship, take me on November 17, 2006, 10:20:09 am
Coin a new motherfucking phrase or put a hot iron in your ass.  Please.

The Hive?  Vast Media Super-Structure?  Business as usual?

Any new term (e.g. The Matrix) is a joke or can be turned into one very quickly.  As soon as you can apply a catchy term to a complex/nuanced concept, your ideas can be coopted and twisted around by the very "Machine" you were trying to make progress against or have a meaningful discussion about.

I guess one of the reasons we have such a dumbed down society, as blatantly evidenced by pop culture, is that many people in the US (especially) don't need to use their minds much for survival/daily life.  I read an anthropolgy article abot fishermen in traditional societies who take into account the water depth, type of fish, stream current, etc. before carving a hook.  Most office drones don't require anywhere near these critical thought capabilities.  Yet, most live in relative opulence.

<warning=RAW>
RAW's writing of the RICH economy had most people sitting on their asses after they received a gov't check because their jobs had been rendered obsolete.  Right now The MachineOr some other canned label has most people working jobs that could be performed by a machine.  Instead, many of us are tapping away on a keyboard for a Resource Ration every week or two.

The Protestant Work Ethic is strong in the US and it will keep pushing people to burn themselves out w/ stress until the whole structure of society collapses.
</warning>

Wear your grudge like a crown of negativity.
Calculate what we will or will not tolerate.
Desperate to control all and everything.
Unable to forgive your scarlet lettermen.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on November 17, 2006, 12:49:57 pm
I considered the use of "Machine‚Ñ¢" (coined in PD06 use by TGRR, btw) to be more Kafka-esque, as in an inexorably grinding juggernought that will grind you up & spit you out.



Neurongot, please to be doing more than complaining... please to be giving us a more useful term.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on November 17, 2006, 12:57:23 pm
How about 'Operation Mindfuck' Double edged sword that one - downside describes the machine to me
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on November 17, 2006, 01:01:32 pm
The Machine‚Ñ¢ as O:M?



I'm not too sure of that...


(...ellipsis for teh Badger...)
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LHX on November 17, 2006, 01:50:50 pm
lmao

any word we come up with would be cliche eventually too

how about the Devil?

how about The Invisible Shapeshifting Oppressive Illusion of Doom?
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on November 17, 2006, 01:53:39 pm
The Machine‚Ñ¢ as O:M?



I'm not too sure of that...


(...ellipsis for teh Badger...)

TMtm (just realised The Machinetm is TM2), might not be OM but it certainly does it. I always saw the operation itself to be the art of using the machine's component systems against it. I think I mentioned before that, until I found this discordian caper, I'd only ever heard the term used in one of Pete Carroll's books and he was referring to performing the process on yourself (or that's the impression I got - I was quite stoned when I read it). I really immersed myself in this and ended up totally rearranging and reprogramming some of the fundamental systems in my own mind.

The way discordian thought applies the metaphor seems to be to externalise the structure that is being hacked but the fundamental technologies employed obey many of the same generic principles applied to the personality and thought matrices.

In both paradigms there is an existing structure which is working oppressively to limit certain modes or aspects of conscious existence which 'we' wish to liberate experientially. In both paradigms these processes are inverted, subverted, reverted or perverted, depending how the notion takes you and where you want to take it.

I maintain the machine is necessary, right down to the most fundamental level's, it is everything. What the machine needs to be is not destroyed but to be pimped, tweaked, bugfixed, virused, hacked, reverse engineered. As cain put it - open sourced and all that that glorious software vision promised us back in the early days.

My vision, now that I've began to experiment in the external structure of this 'Machine' is just to make the whole thing more fun, just as one of the keys to zen enlightenment lies in seeing the 'funny side' of existence, so I feel the wheels of Operation Mass Enlightenment might be greased if more people just chill out and have a laugh I try to be relentless in my efforts to cheer others up and appreciate it when they do the same to me in return.

Maybe having a laugh is just glossing shit over and ignoring all the fundamentally bad, evil issues that plague human existence but answer me this- if everyone woke up tomorrow, pissing themselves laughing like a hippie in a 24 hour, bong induced giggling fit, how many bullets would be fired that day?
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: DJRubberducky on November 17, 2006, 03:17:44 pm
but answer me this- if everyone woke up tomorrow, pissing themselves laughing like a hippie in a 24 hour, bong induced giggling fit, how many bullets would be fired that day?

The answer *is* greater than zero.  Just so you know.  Manic-depressives are actually just as likely to hurt themselves when they're up as when they're down.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LHX on November 17, 2006, 03:54:56 pm
Maybe having a laugh is just glossing shit over and ignoring all the fundamentally bad, evil issues that plague human existence but answer me this- if everyone woke up tomorrow, pissing themselves laughing like a hippie in a 24 hour, bong induced giggling fit, how many bullets would be fired that day?
you said it when you said glossing over

no bullets would be fired until bellys started rumbling

laughter is a big part of it, i agree


The Machine feeds off fear and desire

maybe its afraid and feels incomplete


if most people suddenly found themself in heaven, they would prolly squirm and want out at first

people get a real adrenaline rush out of fear and competition and having their ego threatened

it takes a long time to get that out of the system


stimulation

the sensitivities of people these days shows more and more how we are connected - we can make each other jump so easily


i seen fights break out over scuffed shoes and parking spaces

plus we can even raise peoples anger thru the internet tube truck tree system
- maybe there is a open wound inside peoples heads that needs to be healed
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Jasper on November 17, 2006, 06:15:56 pm
The tubetruck of strife, whose branchy tree pilot produces bushels of shiny gold apples for little boys and girls.

I'm still interested in what Tentasticle was doing with trying to outline the internet elemental properties with a search engine designed to scope out it's focuses.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LHX on November 17, 2006, 07:33:24 pm
I'm still interested in what Tentasticle was doing with trying to outline the internet elemental properties with a search engine designed to scope out it's focuses.

who did what?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Jasper on November 17, 2006, 07:55:00 pm
There was an MW immigrant that was cool but left for some reason, who was doing some sort of program that would gauge the elemental forces of the internet for things like sentience, benevolence, wisdom, stupididty, etc.  A cool project, suffice to say, and I never heard back about it.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LHX on November 17, 2006, 08:26:59 pm
damn

thats pretty intense
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: BADGE OF HONOR on November 17, 2006, 08:36:53 pm
Quote
I maintain the machine is necessary, right down to the most fundamental level's, it is everything. What the machine needs to be is not destroyed but to be pimped, tweaked, bugfixed, virused, hacked, reverse engineered. As cain put it - open sourced and all that that glorious software vision promised us back in the early days.

This is what I was trying to say earlier.  Destroying The Machine is impossible--there would be pure anarchy for about two minutes, then The Machine would rebuild instantly.  It may come back in smaller, even more flawed copies, or finally arrive at that utopia everyone longs for.  My money isn't on the latter, that's for sure.

The problem with The Machine, as I see it, is it fosters a callous uncaring of other humans.  There are some ways to get around that (Christianity is good for at least attempting to look after the well-being of everyone) but inevitably our perceptions of the world devolve into Us and Them.  As it is now, it seems impossible for everyone to become Us (i.e. worth our concern) simply because there are too many of us.  

Upon rereading, I guess I'm calling for Global Love and Companionship.  It seems stupid, especially to anyone as cynical as me, but maybe it's the only way people will stop killing each other.  And I don't mean just physically.  There's an anecdote in Dune about finding drowned sailors with bootmarks on their heads and soldiers.  Metaphorical killing.  Still, it is simply not economically feasible to live completely peacefully.  Not to mention we all experience an atavistic joy when spreading the misery around.  I know I feel pretty gleeful when trolling, though I pretend it's a brand of tough love.  

Upon more rereading, I feel like I woke up this morning a dirty, dirty hippy.  I guess that's what a good night's sleep does you.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: AFK on November 17, 2006, 08:49:18 pm
It's impossible for us to destroy.  But, not impossible for the cosmos to destroy.  That is the day The Machine dies, when the Sun reclaims that which she belched out. 
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LHX on November 17, 2006, 08:54:22 pm
somewhere in between how we intend to act and how we act, we forget to respect the tools we are using and the people we are affecting

something gets lost in the transition

love and companionship is the general motivation behind everybody
but somehow it dont translate when people make their choices

that seems to be where The Machine makes its residence


a couple threads now it came up how destroying it isnt possible

maybe there just need to be some agreement on wtf it is and wtf it is doing (and how)



or maybe dirty hippy syndrome is spreading
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Thurnez Isa on November 18, 2006, 02:12:43 am
Still, it is simply not economically feasible to live completely peacefully.

not only economically feasible, but socially
the main structure of a country, a state, or community is defence. It is to maintain and professionalize war
"Wartime brings the ideal of the State out into very clear relief, and reveals attitudes and tendencies that were hidden. In times of peace the sense of the State flags in a republic that is not militarized. For war is essentially the health of the State." Randolph Bourne
the economy is structured around defence
weapons employ millions

Upon more rereading, I feel like I woke up this morning a dirty, dirty hippy.  I guess that's what a good night's sleep does you

expecially when you work night shift
 :-)
im glad your feeling better
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Starship, take me on November 18, 2006, 02:52:31 am
Anyone raging against The MachineTM should critically study Anthropology.  Radically different cultures reveal that "human nature" is pretty malleable.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on November 18, 2006, 08:57:38 am
Still, it is simply not economically feasible to live completely peacefully.

not only economically feasible, but socially
the main structure of a country, a state, or community is defence. It is to maintain and professionalize war
"Wartime brings the ideal of the State out into very clear relief, and reveals attitudes and tendencies that were hidden. In times of peace the sense of the State flags in a republic that is not militarized. For war is essentially the health of the State." Randolph Bourne
the economy is structured around defence
weapons employ millions

That's true right now. But the fact that it's true is merely an indication of how retarded the human race is overall. With mass enlightenment will come the perspective to trancend petty squabbling over territorial, secular or any other issue you might care to blow someone apart over. By letting go of or transcending these things the beast is freed and tamed at the same time.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Triple Zero on November 18, 2006, 10:02:16 am
There was an MW immigrant that was cool but left for some reason, who was doing some sort of program that would gauge the elemental forces of the internet for things like sentience, benevolence, wisdom, stupididty, etc.  A cool project, suffice to say, and I never heard back about it.

cooool

i always wanted to try and do such a thing :)

d'ya have any links or references for that?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Jasper on November 18, 2006, 08:54:50 pm
Just hearsay.  I've since lost his contact info, but you might find it in some thread diving at EBG.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on November 18, 2006, 09:04:00 pm
I considered the use of "Machine‚Ñ¢" (coined in PD06 use by TGRR, btw) to be more Kafka-esque, as in an inexorably grinding juggernought that will grind you up & spit you out.



Neurongot, please to be doing more than complaining... please to be giving us a more useful term.

I'm just saying.

If you're writing for a more general audience, you might as well cut all the baggage that's firmly attached to "The Machine," by coming up with your own terms.  The Machine as used in popular culture is a trendy way of complaining about society without having to supply a personal critique.  What the fuck is this fetish with "The Machine"?  Why fight the association with bullshit? 

I thought the whole purpose of writing the PD'06 was so we wouldn't have to do that.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Triple Zero on November 19, 2006, 07:30:34 am
Just hearsay.  I've since lost his contact info, but you might find it in some thread diving at EBG.

ok i might just do that, tentasticle was his name you say? got a rough timeframe?

i haven't logged on to eb&g since .. well basically since matters seemed to come back to life here. seem to be having some trouble getting back in, but otoh it's wayy too early here to do anything anyway :)
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Cain on November 19, 2006, 01:40:52 pm
He gave me his AIM...but it was deleted with the change of software.... :-(.  I suggest you ask Mayhem/Bethra how to best get in contact with him.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Benaclypse on November 19, 2006, 05:18:22 pm
I considered the use of "Machine‚Ñ¢" (coined in PD06 use by TGRR, btw) to be more Kafka-esque, as in an inexorably grinding juggernought that will grind you up & spit you out.



Neurongot, please to be doing more than complaining... please to be giving us a more useful term.

I'm just saying.

If you're writing for a more general audience, you might as well cut all the baggage that's firmly attached to "The Machine," by coming up with your own terms.  The Machine as used in popular culture is a trendy way of complaining about society without having to supply a personal critique.  What the fuck is this fetish with "The Machine"?  Why fight the association with bullshit? 

I thought the whole purpose of writing the PD'06 was so we wouldn't have to do that.

The Virustm.  What is the Virustm?
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Cain on November 19, 2006, 05:21:54 pm
Interesting word.  Viruses aren't alive, but they replicate in a highly mechanical manner by infecting living host organisms.  Almost all do some form of damage to the body, but only the most ill-adapted actually bring it close to death.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on November 19, 2006, 06:55:20 pm
then there were Memes  :-D
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: BADGE OF HONOR on November 19, 2006, 07:04:21 pm
Interesting word.  Viruses aren't alive, but they replicate in a highly mechanical manner by infecting living host organisms.  Almost all do some form of damage to the body, but only the most ill-adapted actually bring it close to death.

Actually, that's not true.  Sometimes extreme virulence is the best adaptation.  For example, in the US HIV tends to be dormant for long periods of time and can take decades to completely overwhelm a person's immune system.  This is because our economy and political situation is relatively stable, the vast majority of the population sticks to monogamy, and have fewer children per couple.  In this sort of situation it's better for the virus to keep a low profile and extend its host's lifetime, to allow more chances for it to spread.
In contrast, certain strains in West Africa are extremely virulent and can kill people in a few years after infection, simply because all of the social unrest and poverty.  Men go from the country to the city to make money, sleep with prostitutes, get HIV, bring it home to their wives.  Or women come from the country to provide services to the militias and private armies, then go home when they get sick.  Everyone is having a lot of sex, mostly without condoms (especially since having children is so important since most of them won't survive to adulthood).  So the virus, having more opportunities to spread, replicates more extensively inside its hosts, which kills them sooner.  Virulence, in this case, is quite a good adaptation.

This of course fits in directly with my previous postulation, that The Machine is a mass adaptation of the human subconscious to population pressure.  I'll have to elaborate it more in light of the viral metaphor.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Cain on November 19, 2006, 07:07:31 pm
Actually, I was thinking of bacteria with adaption thing.  I dont have a clue about viral adaptation.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: BADGE OF HONOR on November 19, 2006, 07:09:02 pm
It's the same with any pathogen.  Evolution of virulence is quite a fascinating topic--read up on malaria if you really want to get into the mechanics.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Cain on November 19, 2006, 07:20:45 pm
Will do.  I've looked at some basic stuff to do with it, but little on its virulency.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Triple Zero on November 20, 2006, 06:28:34 am
Actually, that's not true.  Sometimes extreme virulence is the best adaptation.  For example, in the US HIV tends to be dormant for long periods of time and can take decades to completely overwhelm a person's immune system.  This is because our economy and political situation is relatively stable, the vast majority of the population sticks to monogamy, and have fewer children per couple.  In this sort of situation it's better for the virus to keep a low profile and extend its host's lifetime, to allow more chances for it to spread.
In contrast, certain strains in West Africa are extremely virulent and can kill people in a few years after infection, simply because all of the social unrest and poverty.  Men go from the country to the city to make money, sleep with prostitutes, get HIV, bring it home to their wives.  Or women come from the country to provide services to the militias and private armies, then go home when they get sick.  Everyone is having a lot of sex, mostly without condoms (especially since having children is so important since most of them won't survive to adulthood).  So the virus, having more opportunities to spread, replicates more extensively inside its hosts, which kills them sooner.  Virulence, in this case, is quite a good adaptation.

This of course fits in directly with my previous postulation, that The Machine is a mass adaptation of the human subconscious to population pressure.  I'll have to elaborate it more in light of the viral metaphor.

you speak about it, as if HIVs final ultimate goal is killing its host. it isn't, the goal is spreading. so why does it need to stay dormant *before* crashing someone's immune system, instead of just not taking it down at all?

this is probably off topic but i've always kind of wondered about it.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on November 20, 2006, 12:54:05 pm
[side topic]

SillySybin-- did you really say "mass enlightenment"?

 :lol:
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on November 20, 2006, 02:41:59 pm
[side topic]

SillySybin-- did you really say "mass enlightenment"?

 :lol:

Easy to scoff but, like everything else, hard to disprove in theory. I can't imagine human beings are going to stay this retarded forever. Either they die out or get wise. I'm more in favour of the dying thing but I realise this isn't a healthy way to view my fellow biological processing units so I kinda try my best to hope it goes alright for the stupid useless fucks.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on November 20, 2006, 02:54:57 pm
[side topic]

SillySybin-- did you really say "mass enlightenment"?

 :lol:

Easy to scoff but, like everything else, hard to disprove in theory. I can't imagine human beings are going to stay this retarded forever. Either they die out or get wise. I'm more in favour of the dying thing but I realise this isn't a healthy way to view my fellow biological processing units so I kinda try my best to hope it goes alright for the stupid useless fucks.


Hard to prove, as well.

At least I have about 200,000 years of human history on my side.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on November 20, 2006, 03:47:17 pm
Well if it aint going to happen does that mean I can start killing them now? I mean sure -legislation .. nyadda nyadda but in your eyes would it be okay?

My point being - if they aint gonnna wise up, if there's absolutely no chance for 'em, then they don't mean a fuck to me and they're infesting MY planet. I let them live because I live in hope.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on November 20, 2006, 03:56:05 pm
Hold on, I'll be right back.

I have to look up the definition for "delusions of grandeur".
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LHX on November 20, 2006, 04:26:19 pm


you speak about it, as if HIVs final ultimate goal is killing its host. it isn't, the goal is spreading. so why does it need to stay dormant *before* crashing someone's immune system, instead of just not taking it down at all?

this is probably off topic but i've always kind of wondered about it.
good point

viruses have no desire to kill people

it seems that people have become too week to be able to accomodate everything that wants to live in/with/around us


prolly has something with being control freaks
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on November 20, 2006, 04:29:14 pm
Hold on, I'll be right back.

I have to look up the definition for "delusions of grandeur".

I don't mean kill them all. I just mean make a start and do my bit for the environment. Recycle thy neighbor - kinda trip.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LHX on November 20, 2006, 04:32:43 pm
you can do that

but there is rules
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 21, 2006, 03:02:59 am
I apoligize if this was covered earlier in this thread, but is the Machine a term taken from One flew over the Cuckoo's nest?

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN NNNNG!
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: BADGE OF HONOR on November 21, 2006, 09:34:46 pm
Actually, that's not true.  Sometimes extreme virulence is the best adaptation.  For example, in the US HIV tends to be dormant for long periods of time and can take decades to completely overwhelm a person's immune system.  This is because our economy and political situation is relatively stable, the vast majority of the population sticks to monogamy, and have fewer children per couple.  In this sort of situation it's better for the virus to keep a low profile and extend its host's lifetime, to allow more chances for it to spread.
In contrast, certain strains in West Africa are extremely virulent and can kill people in a few years after infection, simply because all of the social unrest and poverty.  Men go from the country to the city to make money, sleep with prostitutes, get HIV, bring it home to their wives.  Or women come from the country to provide services to the militias and private armies, then go home when they get sick.  Everyone is having a lot of sex, mostly without condoms (especially since having children is so important since most of them won't survive to adulthood).  So the virus, having more opportunities to spread, replicates more extensively inside its hosts, which kills them sooner.  Virulence, in this case, is quite a good adaptation.

This of course fits in directly with my previous postulation, that The Machine is a mass adaptation of the human subconscious to population pressure.  I'll have to elaborate it more in light of the viral metaphor.

you speak about it, as if HIVs final ultimate goal is killing its host. it isn't, the goal is spreading. so why does it need to stay dormant *before* crashing someone's immune system, instead of just not taking it down at all?

this is probably off topic but i've always kind of wondered about it.

That is most specifically not what I said, and if you had read my post more carefully you would have seen that.  The ultimate goal of HIV is indeed to spread itself.  The problem is that it resides within the host's immune system (lymph glands etc) and death is an unfortunate side effect of the virus' proliferation.  It's a tradeoff between a longer lifespan or greater doses of the virus in semen/blood, and the ratio depends on the sociopolitical situation of the host population.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Triple Zero on November 22, 2006, 11:27:48 am
The ultimate goal of HIV is indeed to spread itself.  The problem is that it resides within the host's immune system (lymph glands etc) and death is an unfortunate side effect of the virus' proliferation.  It's a tradeoff between a longer lifespan or greater doses of the virus in semen/blood, and the ratio depends on the sociopolitical situation of the host population.

ok i was just wondering about were the trade-off would lie in your opinion.

cause it would just be optimal for HIV to keep its hosts alive indefinitely, if there would be no further side-effects for spreading to that.
but you say that, in order to keep its host alive longer, it needs a lower dosis of the virus in semen/blood?

still i don't quite understand.

having the virus in one's blood or semen is not causing death nor causing destruction of the immune system, right?
i need to look up how HIV does this. cause what i just was wondering is, how is destruction of the immune system linked to proliferation of the virus. they must be linked in some kind of hard-to-tear-apart way, or else this feature of the virus would have evolved away as rudimentary and redundant. wikipedia on "HIV" sheds good light on this (but is too long to repeat here)

(also: death is an unfortunate side effect of having a reduced immune system which is an unfortunate side effect of the virus in some way. but you probably already knew that)

hey sorry if i misunderstood your post. even if you didn't intend it to have that meaning i thought i'd just point it out for clarity.

let's continue with discussing the machine then.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: BADGE OF HONOR on November 22, 2006, 09:49:50 pm
HIV lives in white blood cells.  When that happens, the WBCs cease to function properly.  More HIV=fewer working WBCs=shitty immune system=death by secondary infection.

Infection requires a fairly high dose of the virus, so it's a delicate balance between keeping the host alive and replicating enough to create an infectious dose in blood or semen.

I forget sometimes that people don't know all the mechanics.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Adrian on November 24, 2006, 06:06:34 am
AIDS=Anally Injected Death Sentence
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Triple Zero on November 24, 2006, 12:19:48 pm
a backronym.. how clever!  :roll:

but what are you trying to say?
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: B_M_W on November 24, 2006, 05:27:59 pm
AIDS=Anally Injected Death Sentence

Really funny.


Homophobe.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Cain on February 08, 2007, 02:22:56 pm
Bumped to BIP forum.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Mangrove on February 08, 2007, 02:52:35 pm
AIDS=Anally Injected Death Sentence

wow...i'm old enough to remember when that joke was new.

Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on February 08, 2007, 02:55:04 pm
Wasn't funny back then, either.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on February 08, 2007, 02:56:38 pm
I laughed, but then I was only about 14 at the time.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Mangrove on February 08, 2007, 03:03:12 pm
Wasn't funny back then, either.

did you guys get the carpet bombing of AIDS awareness ads in the US?

i just remember being a kid and seeing big scary icebergs floating around on tv that had AIDS carved on them.

the early 80's - when sex was..um.....'the terrorists'.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: AFK on February 08, 2007, 03:10:00 pm
Definitely.  That was pretty much the impetus of the whole debate about sex education, handing out condoms in school, etc.  It was really scary for some so they wanted to make sure kids knew how to protect themselves, because kids will be kids and will have sex despite the parent's pleadings to abstain. 

But, the Christian right weren't scared enough and decided that was sending the wrong signals to the kids.

Which kind of seques to the debate in the present about the cervical cancer vaccine. 

But, yeah, there was definitely alot of PSA's and the like back in the 80s.  Now, it seems to have gone the other way where there's a perception that it isn't that big a deal anymore and that it's only Africa's problem.  Damned Short Attention Span Society that we live in. 
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Mangrove on February 08, 2007, 03:15:41 pm
to paraphrase bill hicks:

"seems that the war on AIDS has taken a real fucking cease fire"
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: AFK on February 08, 2007, 03:18:11 pm
It's not funny because it is true.

I guess we need another celebrity to die of it before it becomes a "problem" again. 
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Mangrove on February 08, 2007, 03:19:45 pm
so that i'm not being all threadjacky, is there any way that this discussion on AIDS be tied into the Machine theme?
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: AFK on February 08, 2007, 03:22:55 pm
Would it be safe to say that The Machine(tm) has a powerful affect on what is on the national and global agendas, if it doesn't outright control it?
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on February 08, 2007, 03:23:51 pm
Wasn't funny back then, either.

did you guys get the carpet bombing of AIDS awareness ads in the US?

i just remember being a kid and seeing big scary icebergs floating around on tv that had AIDS carved on them.

the early 80's - when sex was..um.....'the terrorists'.

Holy shit yeah. It scared me so much that, to this day, I've never been able to have a physical relationship with an iceberg.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Mangrove on February 08, 2007, 03:27:29 pm
Wasn't funny back then, either.

did you guys get the carpet bombing of AIDS awareness ads in the US?

i just remember being a kid and seeing big scary icebergs floating around on tv that had AIDS carved on them.

the early 80's - when sex was..um.....'the terrorists'.

Holy shit yeah. It scared me so much that, to this day, I've never been able to have a physical relationship with an iceberg.

 :lulz:
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Mangrove on February 08, 2007, 03:28:36 pm
srsly though, was the machine promoting AIDS awareness or downplaying it? (or doing both?)
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: AFK on February 08, 2007, 03:29:09 pm
Just so people don't miss the linkage back to the thread topic.

so that i'm not being all threadjacky, is there any way that this discussion on AIDS be tied into the Machine theme?

Would it be safe to say that The Machine(tm) has a powerful affect on what is on the national and global agendas, if it doesn't outright control it?
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on February 08, 2007, 03:30:55 pm
srsly though, was the machine promoting AIDS awareness or downplaying it? (or doing both?)

Neither.  There always seems to be a plague of some kind, this is just the latest.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on February 08, 2007, 03:35:00 pm
The machine has a vested interest in scaring people as much as possible. Opportunities to do so are rarely missed. Aids was in the right place at the time the cold war looked to be cooling down, or heating up or thawing or whatever cold wars do when their running out of steam ice
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: AFK on February 08, 2007, 03:40:10 pm
I dunno, this plauge has stigmas attached to it.  Sex and Drugs.  And because of that you get the elements of religion and politics invovled.  I can see how The Machine(tm) could have an interest in promoting or downplaying the AIDS disease.  At least on national levels.  Of course, I probably need to consider this more before making a concrete assertion on it, but I am suspicious to say the least. 
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Triple Zero on February 08, 2007, 04:29:00 pm
srsly though, was the machine promoting AIDS awareness or downplaying it? (or doing both?)

when dealing with the machine, don't ask "for what purpose".

the machine isn't human, can't reason or think like us, it does some very strange things because of this.

in this particular case, look at the outcome, was the end result of this campaign promoting awareness or downplaying it? (or neither? or both?)

you can reason "why" the machine does something or not, on several levels of abstraction, but once you get to a high enough level, you may be dealing with metaphores that might not correspond all the way down to the more human interpretations of these things.
in this case, as LMNO said, there is a plague, there pretty much always is, and people will react to this in a certain way, some want to downplay, some want to raise awareness, some panick, some relax, etc. the combined sum of all these actions is what the machine ends up doing.
(oh it's so democratic .. but we all know that democrazy doesn't necessarily make the 'best' choice for the majority, right, right?)
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Cain on February 08, 2007, 07:13:12 pm
The highest analytical/strategic levels are, for all intensive porpoises, useless if you wish to understand how actors relate to each other.  Trust me, been there, done that, concluded Kim Il Jong was as sane as Thomas Jefferson.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Triple Zero on February 08, 2007, 08:28:12 pm
uh is this a reply to me? cause if so, i do not understand what you are talking about (but it sounds interesting).
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Cain on February 08, 2007, 08:36:21 pm
I was more mentioning it in passing, but in reference to your levels of abstraction as well.  Going too high involves removal of context, unit based and individual interests and places almost everything on a rational basis.  Stephen Walt is the perfect example of a thinker who does this.  Obviously, this has its flaws, as these factors do have an effect.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on February 08, 2007, 08:46:32 pm

you can reason "why" the machine does something or not, on several levels of abstraction, but once you get to a high enough level, you may be dealing with metaphores that might not correspond all the way down to the more human interpretations of these things.


Funny you mention that.

My current issue with the Machine metaphor is precisely this overgeneralized nature of it.  It misses the mark as a part of any societal critique because it connotes too much‚Äîfreewill vs. determinism, the military industrial complex, global commerce, Hot Topic, Rage Against the Machine, vacuous anarchist slogans, primitivism, the industrial revolution, the mechanical explanations of science, reality, there's NO END to the directions this idea is pulling. 

It's a slimy, tentacled, dada-kabbalist comedy device used to get minds to hold still for biting, more than a way of communicating anything verifiable.    And that's the direction I want to take it, when I find the time to write.  But before I do that, I've got to excrete a few illustrations for the BIP 2nd ed.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on February 08, 2007, 08:50:42 pm
Good point.  It's a huge metaphor for soemthing that's hard to get your mind around, and as such, it doesn't fit neatly once you try to pin it down.

However, it's pretty much the only way to get all you asshats to concentrate and vaguely agree on anything.

Because once you take it down to specifics, everyone disagrees with everyone else, and nothing gets done.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: AFK on February 08, 2007, 08:56:22 pm
I don't know, it's pretty concrete in my mind.  My visualization of it may be wrong, but I like it goddamnit.  To me, The Machine(tm) is the force that was created when civilized societies emerged and thus created pressures.  Pressure to be a certain way, pressure to do things a certain way, pressures to live a certain way, etc., etc.  Explicit and Implicit.  It's the hidden drive that tries and mostly succeeds to drive our inner drive.  It's what makes you forget yourself and forget seeing yourself.  I know this all sounds metaphorically mumbo jumbo but I guess when I think of it, it's pretty obvious.  Again, that's my perception of it. 
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on February 08, 2007, 09:05:22 pm
Good point.  It's a huge metaphor for soemthing that's hard to get your mind around, and as such, it doesn't fit neatly once you try to pin it down.

However, it's pretty much the only way to get all you asshats to concentrate and vaguely agree on anything.

Because once you take it down to specifics, everyone disagrees with everyone else, and nothing gets done.

I can see that.  But disagreement is spicy.




I don't know, it's pretty concrete in my mind.  My visualization of it may be wrong, but I like it goddamnit.  To me, The Machine(tm) is the force that was created when civilized societies emerged and thus created pressures.  Pressure to be a certain way, pressure to do things a certain way, pressures to live a certain way, etc., etc.  Explicit and Implicit.  It's the hidden drive that tries and mostly succeeds to drive our inner drive.  It's what makes you forget yourself and forget seeing yourself.  I know this all sounds metaphorically mumbo jumbo but I guess when I think of it, it's pretty obvious.  Again, that's my perception of it. 

I like your perspective on it, but if there's any element of evangelism to it, I think you'd do well to avoid the battle of reclaiming it's definition.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Triple Zero on February 08, 2007, 09:11:23 pm
Funny you mention that.

My current issue with the Machine metaphor is precisely this overgeneralized nature of it.¬† It misses the mark as a part of any societal critique because it connotes too much—freewill vs. determinism, the military industrial complex, global commerce, Hot Topic, Rage Against the Machine, vacuous anarchist slogans, primitivism, the industrial revolution, the mechanical explanations of science, reality, there's NO END to the directions this idea is pulling.¬†

It's a slimy, tentacled, dada-kabbalist comedy device used to get minds to hold still for biting, more than a way of communicating anything verifiable.

this is very true.

i'll have to think about this.

Quote
And that's the direction I want to take it, when I find the time to write.

?? you want to take it even further into the direction of the metaphor-taken-too-far/cast-too-wide?
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on February 08, 2007, 09:16:19 pm

?? you want to take it even further into the direction of the metaphor-taken-too-far/cast-too-wide?


The machine as a self replicating fractal seed.

[/brainfart]
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Triple Zero on February 08, 2007, 09:30:50 pm
i've seen self replicating fractal seeds ..

they're funny.

UNTIL THEY SWALLOW YOUR BRAIN

and those spirally thingies have razorsharp edges.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LHX on February 08, 2007, 09:59:51 pm
yeah its not verifiable

like i said before - there are a few conversation-enders in this philosophy we deal with
the 'we are all one' perspective is one
the 'if there was no machine we wouldnt even be here' perspective is another


the realization that most of the illest music is the result of wickedness and suffering is not a pleasant observation in and of itself


'put enough pressure on it and watch - it explodes!'

yeah - thats us


all things bad are directly or indirectly attributable to the machine



we live in a place where we are forced to do things which seem unnecessary

can we visually observe whatever it is that is causing this? no


but we can make deductions

in that regard, what RWHN said is pretty sharp
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on February 08, 2007, 10:07:11 pm

the realization that most of the illest music is the result of wickedness and suffering is not a pleasant observation in and of itself


We strive for luxury and comfort and all things sugar and spice but, in doing so we create collateral suffering. Then, when we've found our comfy bed and the struggle is over, we lapse into depression because our zest for life has vanished. The hideous realisation dawns that it's the shit we deal with that makes us feel alive and, from the doledrums, the cycle repeats itself.

This is the oil that greases the wheels of the machine.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LHX on February 08, 2007, 10:11:45 pm
there is a balance to be had in not striving to achieve illusions


zest is as natural as breathing

and if it isnt, then it prolly means a person needs some sleep
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on February 08, 2007, 10:20:35 pm
there is a balance to be had in not striving to achieve illusions


zest is as natural as breathing

and if it isnt, then it prolly means a person needs some sleep

Personally I feel most alive when I'm pushing myself to the limits. Climbing a mountain, paddling a kayak through some stretch of water that I've no business expecting to make it out of alive, or wrestling with stolen adobe software trying to make a religious programme. It's the struggle that makes the success worth it.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LHX on February 08, 2007, 10:52:34 pm
i dont know about 'worth it'

bottom line is - your life is either exciting and fulfilling or it isnt

and if it isnt, and you dont take it upon yourself to make it exciting and fulfilling, it will eventually be made that way for you

there is nothing more exciting than not being sure if youre gonna make it thru the night / hour / minute

and when you are in that situation often enough, it becomes second nature


these are no universal truths

just some conclusions that i seem to be coming to
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on February 08, 2007, 11:21:32 pm
i dont know about 'worth it'

bottom line is - your life is either exciting and fulfilling or it isnt


That's what I meant by worth it. Worth is weighed by me and me alone and triumph over adversity is the only currency I count. I savour moments of peace, tranquility, happiness and good sex but those only hold value to me in light of the bad stuff.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LHX on February 09, 2007, 01:23:06 am
interesting

the thrills and spills


now that i re-read my post - it seems that there can be a difference between 'exciting' and 'fulfilling' as well


fulfilment can possibly be found in ways other than excitement

but excitement is a sure-fire way to get the job done



if you really want to make your life full, all you have to do is put yourself in a catastrophic situation



there are places where boredom does not exist
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Benaclypse on February 09, 2007, 01:51:56 am
Sometimes striving is thriving.  I know my life wouldn't be complete without strife.

----------------------------------------------------------

The Machine is seven billion people seeking survival and seven kajillion corporations that will only sustain several million Masters of society.  The Machine is a trillion dollar terminator super army gunning countries into the ground and a bazillion industries that refuse to live in balance with nature.  The Machine is Grayface lording the black iron prison and suffering his own ball and chain the size of an empire.  The Machine is mass
morality and a glitch in the conscience.  The Machine is a monkey wrench sabatoging its
own gears.  The Machine is the virtue of human's pride and the vice of human's pride.  The Machine is unstoppable, but Chaos always humbles the Machine down to less than a microchip.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™?
Post by: Triple Zero on February 09, 2007, 08:35:01 am
if you really want to make your life full, all you have to do is put yourself in a catastrophic situation


there are places where boredom does not exist

THANK YOU SIR MAY I HAVE ANOTHER SIR

no but seriously thank you (and silly) for saying that, i think needed to hear that.

fucking catastrophic situations and their trying to make my life "interesting" hrmpf! i'll show them grtfrgrtffggrr..

it's funny how something seemingly boring period of waiting can suddenly turn "interesting", when time gets short.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on February 09, 2007, 01:15:08 pm
Quote from: Ben
The Machine is a monkey wrench sabatoging its
own gears. 




Niiiiice. :banana:
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: AFK on February 09, 2007, 02:24:16 pm

I don't know, it's pretty concrete in my mind.  My visualization of it may be wrong, but I like it goddamnit.  To me, The Machine(tm) is the force that was created when civilized societies emerged and thus created pressures.  Pressure to be a certain way, pressure to do things a certain way, pressures to live a certain way, etc., etc.  Explicit and Implicit.  It's the hidden drive that tries and mostly succeeds to drive our inner drive.  It's what makes you forget yourself and forget seeing yourself.  I know this all sounds metaphorically mumbo jumbo but I guess when I think of it, it's pretty obvious.  Again, that's my perception of it. 

I like your perspective on it, but if there's any element of evangelism to it, I think you'd do well to avoid the battle of reclaiming it's definition.

Well it's MY definition anyway.  People can see it how they want to see it.  It is useful, I think for us to discuss it for the excercise of crystallizing our individual views.  I don't think the goal should be to get everyone on the exact same page, but if we are all reading the same book, then at least we have something to center around. 
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on February 09, 2007, 02:28:21 pm
I really have to edit that pamphlet....

::sigh::

so many good ideas, so little time.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LHX on February 09, 2007, 02:42:49 pm

I don't know, it's pretty concrete in my mind.  My visualization of it may be wrong, but I like it goddamnit.  To me, The Machine(tm) is the force that was created when civilized societies emerged and thus created pressures.  Pressure to be a certain way, pressure to do things a certain way, pressures to live a certain way, etc., etc.  Explicit and Implicit.  It's the hidden drive that tries and mostly succeeds to drive our inner drive.  It's what makes you forget yourself and forget seeing yourself.  I know this all sounds metaphorically mumbo jumbo but I guess when I think of it, it's pretty obvious.  Again, that's my perception of it. 

I like your perspective on it, but if there's any element of evangelism to it, I think you'd do well to avoid the battle of reclaiming it's definition.

Well it's MY definition anyway.  People can see it how they want to see it.  It is useful, I think for us to discuss it for the excercise of crystallizing our individual views.  I don't think the goal should be to get everyone on the exact same page, but if we are all reading the same book, then at least we have something to center around. 

and at some level, we are reading the same book

not that i want to make a RealTruth claim, but i dont really see the point in denying that other than to become a candidate for a orbital barstool strike
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: AFK on February 09, 2007, 03:00:08 pm
Yeah, at the very least, we have a refuge to come to where we know, generally, that other people get where we are coming from.  Because it can be very frustrating when you are surrounded, on a daily basis, who have NO clue as to where you are coming from. 
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LHX on February 09, 2007, 04:01:31 pm
this place helps in learning to get over that frustration

it is frustrating
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: AFK on November 28, 2007, 09:32:06 pm
The Machine is what tells you to buy that shiny thing that everyone else is buying for Xmas. 

The Machine is what compels you to settle, and not feel bad about it.

The Machine is that cold, clammy feeling you get on a regular basis.

The Machine is what tells you to scrimp and save for when you are 80 years old and bed ridden.

The Machine is what tells you to pop pills so you don't have to think about it anymore. 
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on November 28, 2007, 09:44:52 pm
The Machine™ wants you to have a drink after a long day at work.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Cain on November 28, 2007, 10:11:01 pm
So do I.

In fact, I prefer a drink before a long hard day.  Or any time I am required to perform for the public (public being defined as everyone from random passerbys up to the legal system)
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: nurbldoff on November 28, 2007, 10:58:58 pm
The Machine™ wants you to have a long day of work before your drink.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Payne on November 28, 2007, 11:12:58 pm
The Machine doesn't give a fuck, as long as you are working and drinking as much as you can, and more, it doesn't mind.

It's a loving metaphorical entity.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: LMNO on November 29, 2007, 02:45:03 pm
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/Marburger/Machineentity.jpg)
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: Payne on November 29, 2007, 03:46:55 pm
HAWT.

It always comes down to robo-porn, eventually.
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: AFK on November 29, 2007, 03:55:42 pm
such sensual servos
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: MonkeyMind on December 29, 2007, 05:16:10 am
thought is a ocean, a thought thats defined as "mine" or "yours" is the construct and manifestation of the machine.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LMNO on December 31, 2007, 02:28:17 pm
Could you go further with the idea that a thought is an ocean?  I'm not picking up on the metaphor.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: hunter s.durden on December 31, 2007, 08:27:18 pm
It sounds like he's going for the "we are all part of one consciousness" type thing.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LMNO on December 31, 2007, 08:31:39 pm
We are all 46 posts.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: hunter s.durden on December 31, 2007, 08:35:30 pm
Why isn't BMW in here discussing this?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LMNO on December 31, 2007, 08:42:02 pm
Probably because he thinks you'll make fun of him.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on December 31, 2007, 09:27:17 pm
The Machine is a conglomerated incorporated business venture that went into public trading at least 100 years ago. Its shareholders are every man, woman, and child that have an interest in making the world a "Better Place." Its flagship product is Irony.

TM™, Inc.'s stock has split more than five dozen times since it went public, and share prices have skyrocketed since the launch of Sputnik, which was not only a Russian spacecraft but a TM™ Global Coagulation Device as well.

In spite of all its success, TM™ has consistently failed to deliver on the promises it initially made to its original investors. In fact, the harder its shareholders have worked to provide for its ever-increasing maintenance and expansion programs, the less responsive TM™ has become to even their basic needs. For example, the Manhattan Project was presented to shareholders as the development of a Spontaneous Global Prosperity bomb, but after all the effort that went into it, it turned out the thing was just another Spontaneous Carnage bomb.

Still, though failed projects like that have marred its history, TM™ continues to crowd out other players in the Human Development industries. Current projections indicate that within the next century, TM™ will begin to draw upon shareholders more as a source of fuel and fodder than as a source of authority or justification.

Government agencies, for some reason, are strangely silent on this market phenomenon.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: hunter s.durden on December 31, 2007, 11:25:42 pm
Probably because he thinks you'll make fun of him.

 :lulz:

He be right, but that never stopped him before.
He's got a vicious bite...
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: MonkeyMind on January 02, 2008, 05:57:07 pm
It sounds like he's going for the "we are all part of one consciousness" type thing.

yes and no, we all "mutualy agree" that reality is created because we look upon it, as well as reality is there because you get beat over the head with it "the barstool project".
either way we bring our assumptions and specualations into ours and others realities, its this bias we place on the world "our inward world" and the "outer world" that creates this machine.

i was really hoping people werent going to take my 1st statment as some kind of belief in god bullshit and i appreciate that it wasnt taken that way lol.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: AFK on January 02, 2008, 06:02:13 pm
I'm not sure that I agree with that.  "Our Perception of reality (little r)" is created because we look upon Reality. (big R)

actual Reality exists whether or not we look at it. 
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: MonkeyMind on January 02, 2008, 06:07:46 pm
I'm not sure that I agree with that.  "Our Perception of reality (little r)" is created because we look upon Reality. (big R)

actual Reality exists whether or not we look at it. 

agreed, from my understanding of the consincense(sp)? understanding of the barestool project....
"yes and no, we all "mutualy agree" that reality is created because we look upon it, as well as reality is there because you get beat over the head with it "the barstool project".
its still our past experiences within life that bias our present and future tense experiences within life, since everyone does this that assumption and speculation of "how it is" IS the machine.
it makes sense in my head... perhaps im not explaining it correctly let me sit & think on this some more.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: AFK on January 02, 2008, 06:09:18 pm
Okay, I think I see where you are coming from now. 
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: MonkeyMind on January 05, 2008, 03:24:12 am
lol no posts in this thread since the last i posted, woohoo it seems i killed the thread...
im gifted like that  :fap:
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: AFK on January 07, 2008, 02:41:39 pm
Nah, it'll come alive again, when it's time. 
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Chairman Risus on January 09, 2008, 03:06:46 am
(http://www.compliancesigns.com/media/OSHA/ODE-6075_150.gif)
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: AFK on January 09, 2008, 08:12:04 pm
The Machine: "I'm in your life, crushing your digits!"
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Xooxe on January 10, 2008, 08:36:23 am
Quote
Man's life is dichotomized: One part of his life is determined by biologic laws (sexual gratification, consumption of food, relatedness to nature); the other part of his life is determined by the machine civilization (mechanical ideas about his own organization, his superior position in the animal kingdom, his racial or class attitude toward other human groups, valuations about ownership and nonownership, science, religion, etc.). His being an animal and his not being an animal, biologic roots on the one hand and technical development on the other hand, cleave man's life and thought. All the notions man has developed about himself are consistently derived from the machine that he has created. The construction of machines and the use of machines have imbued man with the belief that he is progressing and developing himself to something "higher," in and through the machine. But he also invested the machine with an animal-like appearance and mechanics. The train engine has eyes to see with and legs to run with, a mouth to consume coal with and discharge openings for slag, levers, and other devices for making sounds. In this way the product of mechanistic technology became the extension of man himself. In fact, machines do constitute a tremendous extension of man's biologic organization. They make him capable of mastering nature to a far greater degree than his hands alone had enabled him. They give him mastery over time and space. Thus, the machine became a part of man himself, a loved and highly esteemed part. He dreams about how these machines will make his life easier and will give him a great capacity for enjoyment. The enjoyment of life with the help of the machine has always been his dream. And in reality? The machine became, is, and will continue to be his most dangerous destroyer, if he does not differentiate himself from it.

A quote from pages 334 - 335 of The Mass Psychology Of Fascism by Wilhelm Reich, third edition (1942). Personally I reckon that sums it up quite nicely but it probably depends on what you'd like "The Machine™" to be. "You're made out of meat. Do never forget." Now go off and buy a copy before the mechanised civilisation comes 'a' knockin' with valuations about ownership on my ass.  :|
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on January 15, 2008, 01:18:33 am
Or, you could just dowload it for free from various places on the internet.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Xooxe on January 15, 2008, 05:17:58 pm
Nahh, dead people need royalties too.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Requia ☣ on February 15, 2008, 10:55:30 pm
The machine is the sum of all forces that exert group influence over individuals.  A mathematical abstract that runs on top of human interaction.  The nature of the machine exists to preserve itself, and to preserve the society and memes it uses to live.





In response to something someone asked much earlier in the thread, I dunno just how old the term 'The Machine' is, but I've seen references to it as far back as 30s literature (Heinlein).  Usage wasn't quite the same, and referred specifically to democratic process political machinations, specifically the preservation of status quo.  (Two party system, redistricting, general brainwashing of people into one party or the other etc).
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 19, 2010, 05:52:02 pm
Bump.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LMNO on March 19, 2010, 05:54:07 pm
Oh yeah... didn't we have a PDF of some of this stuff?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 19, 2010, 05:54:34 pm
Oh yeah... didn't we have a PDF of some of this stuff?

Dunno.

We need to start a PDF dump, because I miss all that shit.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cramulus on March 19, 2010, 06:38:45 pm
Oh yeah... didn't we have a PDF of some of this stuff?

yes:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/4950524/The-Machine
Title: Re: What is The Machine‚Ñ¢?
Post by: President Television on March 29, 2010, 10:57:48 pm

i dunno, so far i can see a few ideas to remedy the situation
- destroy the machines. discordian chaos/OM is a good attempt. like malfunctioning organs and uninhibited mutated cells (cancer) kills a lifeform.
- get ourselves a "good" machine, like kai wren said. it may be possible, but you have to make sure it is 1) able to defeat the other machines and 2) is intrinsically concerned with the well-being of the humans it is made of. who knows, perhaps discordianism can become such a machine some day.
- a bit far-fetched and esoteric, but since it is the medium on which these machines are operating that bugs us, if we can just slowly transfer their patterns to another medium, nobody'd notice and we're rid of them. kind of like the machines did to the humans in the matrix, actually :)



This is rather off-topic and I know this quote is from wayyyy back at the beginning of the thread, but I've got to say that I'd totally watch the italicized option if it were made into a movie. It makes me think of giant robots and Godzilla.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cramulus on March 29, 2010, 11:51:52 pm
relevant: http://nietzschecoyote.wordpress.com/2009/12/28/analog-system-hacking-101-alternate-visions-built-in-the-gaps/

Quote from: Ed Wilson
Analog System Hacking 101: Alternate Visions built in the gaps

The primary problem I see is the lack of an alternative to the system as it is. We need to have a vision, perhaps multiple visions, of how people will be living their day to day lives “after the revolution” and the structures that will allow them to do that.

I look at how we live and value things in terms of the internet and then I go home and I visit my tv and newspapers reality parents… and I realize we are already living in a different culture, almost a different society. This for me hints at the kinds of alternatives we must generate.

With our alternate visions we can begin building alternate structures in the gaps of the current system. We can take the innovations and legal structures that already exist and adapt them to our purposes. Corporations, Churches, Non-profits, Co-Ops… these are things that already exist. How can we use them differently?

We have to look at both the structures that constrain our behaviours and the values and motivations that guide them. We are already freer than we usually realize.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Hoser McRhizzy on May 14, 2010, 10:42:13 pm
The empire, the spectacle, the mainstream, the machine… “We are already freer than we usually realize.”

About a week ago, a poster (LMNO, I think) linked to “a pamphlet called The Machine,” which led a wiki page, which led to this thread.  At the end of which was a link to the aforementioned pamphlet.  I’m very aware that everything’s probably been covered.  And a tl;dr that’s mostly summary might not be welcome.

But here’s this, either way.  Mostly agreement, I think, but I honestly have no idea. 

I’m not convinced of the monolith.  Or its inherent-ness.  “This is just the natural order of naturally violent/sadistic/self-interested/manifest-destiny monkeys” argument holds no weight for me.  It’s one of many myths backing up imperialists as the top of the food chain.

For my own sitch.  The Machine is governmentality.  The Machine is the mindfuck soul-killer pleasure centre buzz I get from completing a task for an authority figure before the deadline and without collaboration.  The Machine is a verb, a reenactment, when I avert my eyes from a CCTV camera.  Or when I make ‘eye contact’ with the dome, knowing it’s either just recording or it’s some person bored off their tits in a booth somewhere (but I’m made to feel like I’m fighting The Man).  Either, both.  The Machine is functioning properly when I clear an airport metal detector on the first go, and the guy on the other side offers me the option of getting a nudie pic taken or getting felt up.  And I smile.  At.  Him.  The fissures in the machine become clearer when I’m able to perceive these things as ridiculous.

Or that newsfeed thingy talking about working counter to the mainstream.

If one of The Machine’s myths of itself is that it’s a monolith fapping to binary argument, one way of thinking outside it (or an exercise in trying) involves routing around the rewards we get for accepting or imposing the appearance of coherence or applicability.

Simply, a universal definition will overdetermine the situation I apply it to.  I’ll miss the fissures and chaotic places my predetermined analysis doesn’t work.  An anomaly or information that doesn’t sit right might be an indicator of another set of bars (if I’m understanding the metaphor right), or something else worth thinking for.   

The Machine tells us there’s a mainstream: that it is the mainstream; that it subsumes what tributaries bring to space always/already claimed as its own; and that the idea of a mainstream is more than a sometimes useful metaphor.  The Machine tells you that crabgrass is a fractal.  That the representation of a thing is the thing itself: ex. why an online poll can be used as proof of what ‘the people’ want, and hardly anyone blinks, or why a person can be referred to as an alien or simply illegal.

Rambling now.  Guess that’s all I can articulate so far.  If you’ve read this, thanks for putting up with the mental fappage.  To anyone in this thread since it started, thanks for taking the time to write good stuff to think with.  It’s very appreciated.

tl;dr - and then, some other stuff...
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on May 14, 2010, 11:38:30 pm
Everything operates in systems. From society at large and international trade down to the bridge club for cell blocks E-G at the retirement home. Groups of people organizing themselves for some common purpose which, invariably, gets eventually lost behind the processes and bylaws of the organization. All groups encounter this at some point, even a two-person marriage where the routine of "Date Night on Thursdays" becomes an obstacle to some development in life, simply because that's the way it's always been.

I don't know anymore whether the Machine™ is something to fear, something to fight, or just something that is. In fact the more I think about it the more clear it becomes how interconnected everything is, and the Machine™ loses its definition, because everything adds a layer of complexity to the system and so it grows and grows until it becomes practically useless to call it anything other than what it ultimately is: Life. Mind you, that doesn't excuse it, or those who are lost in it. It is what it is: a great big fucking clusterfuck of apes caught up in a society that has been engineered just to get people caught up in it, and that's all.

It's not an agency, or a bureaucracy, or even a state of mind. It isn't just modern consumerism, or the obesity epidemic. Really, I don't really think the Machine™ is about anything we as a species to do ourselves, because that implies that we can attain, or deserve, some kind of relief from our own self-inflicted bullshit. I don't think I can really define the Machine™, but I think I found some pictures of it here (http://chrisjordan.com/current_set2.php?id=11).
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Requia ☣ on May 15, 2010, 12:42:53 am
There's something Kai talks about sometimes, called emergent properties.  Kai does a far better job explaining it than I ever could, but at its core the emergent is when simple rules combine to form complex systems.  Each ant is a truly simple creature, but the rules they follow combine in magnificent ways.

The Machine is that.  But taken up a few orders of magnitude.  All the thousands of little rules like 'if profits go up, so does the stock price' and 'you need X amount of money in order to get (re)elected' or 'if somebody doesn't look me in the eyes they're lying' combine to form The Machine.

But, like any emergent system, its a hell of a lot more than just the sum of its parts, those rules have a hell of a lot of unintended consequences.  So cops think am Arab is lying to them, because in his culture looking someone in the eyes all the time is rude, the CEO fires tens of thousands of people because that brings profits up that quarter.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Hoser McRhizzy on May 15, 2010, 06:41:53 am
I don't think I can really define the Machine™, but I think I found some pictures of it here (http://chrisjordan.com/current_set2.php?id=11).

I think you're right.


edited fer threadspammage
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Kai on May 19, 2010, 08:04:01 pm
[quote author=vexati0n link=topic=10409.msg872747#msg872747 date=1273876710

It's not an agency, or a bureaucracy, or even a state of mind. It isn't just modern consumerism, or the obesity epidemic. Really, I don't really think the Machine™ is about anything we as a species to do ourselves, because that implies that we can attain, or deserve, some kind of relief from our own self-inflicted bullshit. I don't think I can really define the Machine™, but I think I found some pictures of it here (http://chrisjordan.com/current_set2.php?id=11).
[/quote]

The destructive aspect.

Quote
There's something Kai talks about sometimes, called emergent properties.  Kai does a far better job explaining it than I ever could, but at its core the emergent is when simple rules combine to form complex systems.  Each ant is a truly simple creature, but the rules they follow combine in magnificent ways.

The creative aspect.

Call it emergent and collective human impact, call it the collective unconscious, whatever. It's like humanity, the MIND of humanity, the CONCEPT of humanity and human ideas, has been given velocity and form as a physical, REAL construct, an artifact. Sort of like the Kuhnian paradigm, a model/worldview applied.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 19, 2010, 08:26:18 pm
So then the Machine is a model, generally with negative connotations that different authors/writers/pd posters use to reference some aspect of reality that they dislike? Form some its the Political Machine, for others the Social Machine, for others the Consumerist Machine etc etc etc

Maybe the Machine is the stuff that urges the individual to conform to behaviors that they may not otherwise conform to?

Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LMNO on May 19, 2010, 08:29:52 pm
The Machine™ is Legion.



It is That Which Prevents You From Your True Desire.


The Beast, lo, it hath many names, but the end is always the same: Frustration, Despair, Death.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 19, 2010, 08:31:21 pm
The Machine™ is Legion.



It is That Which Prevents You From Your True Desire.


The Beast, lo, it hath many names, but the end is always the same: Frustration, Despair, Death.

 :lulz:
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Kai on May 19, 2010, 08:33:49 pm
Funny, I was being serious.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LMNO on May 19, 2010, 08:45:03 pm
To be honest, I was as well.

The Machine™ to me, is all the vast interconnections that appear to have sentience.  Typically, we notice it more when that percieved sentience seems to be kicking you in the balls.

What creates those interconnections can be distilled in many different ways.


So, in my lighthearted way, I was trying to tie in both Rat's and Kai's ideas.


LMNO
-Not as stupid as he sounds.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 19, 2010, 08:52:59 pm
It was funny and insightful... best of both worlds   :lol:
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Requia ☣ on May 19, 2010, 09:51:21 pm
So then the Machine is a model, generally with negative connotations that different authors/writers/pd posters use to reference some aspect of reality that they dislike? Form some its the Political Machine, for others the Social Machine, for others the Consumerist Machine etc etc etc

Maybe the Machine is the stuff that urges the individual to conform to behaviors that they may not otherwise conform to?



Giving the machine negative qualities is, I think, a mistake.  The machine isn't really bad, except to the extent that it keeps things from getting better, but it only does that because it resists change, and it resists bad change just as much as the good.  So the machine keeps things at that 'just good enough' level that prevents people from tearing it down and building a better one (or trying at least).
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Kai on May 19, 2010, 09:53:54 pm
To be honest, I was as well.

The Machine™ to me, is all the vast interconnections that appear to have sentience.  Typically, we notice it more when that percieved sentience seems to be kicking you in the balls.

What creates those interconnections can be distilled in many different ways.


So, in my lighthearted way, I was trying to tie in both Rat's and Kai's ideas.


LMNO
-Not as stupid as he sounds.

Okay, now I understand. I didn't get the reference before, whatever it was.

The Machine is Emergence at the social level.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 19, 2010, 09:57:05 pm
So then the Machine is a model, generally with negative connotations that different authors/writers/pd posters use to reference some aspect of reality that they dislike? Form some its the Political Machine, for others the Social Machine, for others the Consumerist Machine etc etc etc

Maybe the Machine is the stuff that urges the individual to conform to behaviors that they may not otherwise conform to?



Giving the machine negative qualities is, I think, a mistake.  The machine isn't really bad, except to the extent that it keeps things from getting better, but it only does that because it resists change, and it resists bad change just as much as the good.  So the machine keeps things at that 'just good enough' level that prevents people from tearing it down and building a better one (or trying at least).

Maybe its not a negative quality... I mean for the TYFS crowd sure... but for the average Joe that only gets up in the morning and goes to work because the Machine pushes him... well that's what makes civilization work.

Sometimes I wonder if life without a Machine would be better or worse...
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Kai on May 19, 2010, 10:01:42 pm
So then the Machine is a model, generally with negative connotations that different authors/writers/pd posters use to reference some aspect of reality that they dislike? Form some its the Political Machine, for others the Social Machine, for others the Consumerist Machine etc etc etc

Maybe the Machine is the stuff that urges the individual to conform to behaviors that they may not otherwise conform to?



Giving the machine negative qualities is, I think, a mistake.  The machine isn't really bad, except to the extent that it keeps things from getting better, but it only does that because it resists change, and it resists bad change just as much as the good.  So the machine keeps things at that 'just good enough' level that prevents people from tearing it down and building a better one (or trying at least).

Maybe its not a negative quality... I mean for the TYFS crowd sure... but for the average Joe that only gets up in the morning and goes to work because the Machine pushes him... well that's what makes civilization work.

Sometimes I wonder if life without a Machine would be better or worse...

Social insects wouldn't be so diverse, cosmopolitan and ubiquitous without their respective "machines".

I think the same is true for humans.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Requia ☣ on May 19, 2010, 10:11:10 pm
So then the Machine is a model, generally with negative connotations that different authors/writers/pd posters use to reference some aspect of reality that they dislike? Form some its the Political Machine, for others the Social Machine, for others the Consumerist Machine etc etc etc

Maybe the Machine is the stuff that urges the individual to conform to behaviors that they may not otherwise conform to?



Giving the machine negative qualities is, I think, a mistake.  The machine isn't really bad, except to the extent that it keeps things from getting better, but it only does that because it resists change, and it resists bad change just as much as the good.  So the machine keeps things at that 'just good enough' level that prevents people from tearing it down and building a better one (or trying at least).

Maybe its not a negative quality... I mean for the TYFS crowd sure... but for the average Joe that only gets up in the morning and goes to work because the Machine pushes him... well that's what makes civilization work.

Sometimes I wonder if life without a Machine would be better or worse...

We kind of need the machine.  At the very least the part of it that keeps food on the grocery store shelves.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Kai on May 19, 2010, 10:15:36 pm
Is it possible to modify and rebuild The Machine part by part?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Telarus on May 20, 2010, 12:37:37 am
See the anime Naausica and the Valley of the Winds.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Kai on May 20, 2010, 02:38:39 am
See the anime Naausica and the Valley of the Winds.

Seen it, don't remember it well. Tell me how this is relevant.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Telarus on May 20, 2010, 03:30:07 am
During the last Great War, giant robots capable of unleashing directed atomic construction were created. Thousands of years later, much of the landscape is uninhabitable, ranging between desolate dead radioactive wastes and the 'fungi jungle'. The fungus constantly encroaches on the people's croplands, so "the machine's" programmed response is to kill any fungus, or any fungus carrying insectoid creature with flamethrowers (you see much of this in the 'coastal kingdom', less of it in the isolated fortress cities).

Nausicaa's a crazy chick on a flying wing-board (japanese goddess/princess trope) who learns to understand that the Big Smart insectoids and the fungus jungle serve to clean the radioactivity out of the soil and water (for those who haven't seen the movie, I'll stop there). The only hope humanity has is Nausicaa convincing the Machine (as represented by factions of feuding Authorities with their own military forces) _not_ to kill the Insectoids/fungus when each military is busy killing everyone else including the fungus (...again, I'm leaving this vague for those that haven't seen it and don't know the mcGuffin at the end), and to leave the fungi jungle to do its thing. Because in just a few human generations, huge swaths of land will be inhabitable and green again....... unless the soldiers torture and burn down Gaia's immune system.

Really Good dystopian post-apoc film from studio Ghibli.

(http://bookling.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/film08_nausicaa.jpg)

(http://www.ubcfumetti.com/enciclopedia/nausicaadellavalledelvento/nausicaa_8_big.jpg)

(http://users.aber.ac.uk/scty99/images/nausicaa.jpg)

Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Kai on May 20, 2010, 01:19:51 pm
That's nice, but I meant in this world.

Also, looks like I need to review that OVA.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on May 20, 2010, 03:24:36 pm
So this is where it gets kinky... cause in every society... in every incarnation of the Machine, there are the fools, tricksters, anti-machines....

So are they also just part of the machine, perhaps necessary for it to work well? IE, by railing against the machine, do we (and American Rap/metal bands) simply follow the direction of the machine?

Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LMNO on May 20, 2010, 03:25:37 pm
So are they also just part of the machine, perhaps necessary for it to work well? IE, by railing against the machine, do we (and American Rap/metal bands) simply follow the direction of the machine?

If it makes people more comfortable, then yes.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cosine 5 on June 29, 2010, 04:06:22 pm
The Machine is Emergence at the social level.

Quote
People will believe any insanity if it allows them to belong to a real or imagined community.
(chaosmarxism)


Tell me if I'm misunderstanding this:
- the Machine is the status quo. It tries to maintain social stability and order.
- the Machine, like money, is an idea that only exists because people believe it.
- the best way to invoke change in society is to rebuild the machine, rather than wrecking it.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cramulus on June 29, 2010, 04:15:06 pm
I would agree with that summary
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cosine 5 on June 29, 2010, 04:19:13 pm
But what is wrong with this system, if people are happy?

Ignorance is bliss...
The Machine sounds like deception for the benefit of the decieved rather than the deceiver.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: AFK on June 29, 2010, 04:25:15 pm
Tell me if I'm misunderstanding this:
- the Machine is the status quo. It tries to maintain social stability and order.
- the Machine, like money, is an idea that only exists because people believe it.
- the best way to invoke change in society is to rebuild the machine, rather than wrecking it.

Yes, but you can only change it from within, and only one or two cogs at a time.  And that should be the aim.  Because how do cogs work?  They turn and make other cogs turn, which make other cogs turn, etc., etc.,  If you can change the course of a couple of the cogs, you can get the change to spread.  It will never be enough to change the whole of The Machine, based upon history, but perhaps you can alter the trajectory just enough to make the human social existence a bit more palatable AND equitable. 
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LMNO on June 29, 2010, 04:26:32 pm
But what is wrong with this system, if people are happy?

Ignorance is bliss...
The Machine sounds like deception for the benefit of the decieved rather than the deceiver.

Hey, if you're happy with the status quo, then good on you.  Pay no attention to the grinding, crunching sound.  We need to grease the wheels somehow.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: AFK on June 29, 2010, 04:31:40 pm
But what is wrong with this system, if people are happy?

Ignorance is bliss...
The Machine sounds like deception for the benefit of the decieved rather than the deceiver.

Ignorance is a benefit?  Perhaps it can be in certain situations, but I think it is a deficit if your ignorance is blinding you and shielding you from other possibilities on your pathway through life.  The Machine is what masks the other options on your path.  Options that allow you to experience more from life and to have new experiences that you've been unable to contemplate.  The Machine keeps you on the quick and easy and predictable path.  It limits adventure.  It limits discovery and exploration.  It limits potential.  It's what keeps people on their couches glued to their TeeVees when they could be outside playing.  
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cramulus on June 29, 2010, 04:34:24 pm
But what is wrong with this system, if people are happy?

Ignorance is bliss...
The Machine sounds like deception for the benefit of the decieved rather than the deceiver.

That was my reaction to reading 1984.

If the proles seem to like it, what's the problem?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Jenne on June 29, 2010, 05:16:08 pm
But what is wrong with this system, if people are happy?

Ignorance is bliss...
The Machine sounds like deception for the benefit of the decieved rather than the deceiver.

Hm, perhaps it's that nagging word that is rarely used in times like these, properly anyway:  Freedom.  To choose, to live as one wants, to be who one really wants to be and fuckitall.

Now, Freedom is somewhat of an illusion, thanks to the auspices of The Machine and those who keep it running.  However, if you have had your rose colored glasses removed, you realize that that niggling sense of hopelessness and nothing's-ever-gonna-be-ok-again creeping feeling that settles into your marrow and between your shoulderblades in the dead of the night is not going to go away.  Ever.

Crushing The Machine that perpetuates it all and still entices you to FORGETFORGETFORGET what you have come to experience in 4D in a living nightmare would bring much satisfaction to those of us who feel the need to react.

But YMMV.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Captain Utopia on June 29, 2010, 05:28:04 pm
There's something Kai talks about sometimes, called emergent properties.  Kai does a far better job explaining it than I ever could, but at its core the emergent is when simple rules combine to form complex systems.  Each ant is a truly simple creature, but the rules they follow combine in magnificent ways.

The Machine is that.  But taken up a few orders of magnitude.  All the thousands of little rules like 'if profits go up, so does the stock price' and 'you need X amount of money in order to get (re)elected' or 'if somebody doesn't look me in the eyes they're lying' combine to form The Machine.

But, like any emergent system, its a hell of a lot more than just the sum of its parts, those rules have a hell of a lot of unintended consequences.  So cops think am Arab is lying to them, because in his culture looking someone in the eyes all the time is rude, the CEO fires tens of thousands of people because that brings profits up that quarter.

So much so that both its proponents and opponents believe that it is a manifest destiny.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Requia ☣ on June 29, 2010, 05:54:24 pm
- the Machine, like money, is an idea that only exists because people believe it.

I have to say no to this part, most people have never heard of The Machine.  There are parts of it, like money, that would go away if people stopped believing in it, but The Machine would continue to exist even if all those parts were removed (though it would look incredibly different).
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 29, 2010, 05:55:35 pm
Ignorance is bliss...

And there you have it, folks.

America™, circa 2010.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LMNO on June 29, 2010, 06:23:13 pm
SHHHH!



(http://www.realitywanted.com/images/upload/americas-got-talent.jpg)
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cramulus on June 29, 2010, 06:23:27 pm
- the Machine, like money, is an idea that only exists because people believe it.

I have to say no to this part, most people have never heard of The Machine.  There are parts of it, like money, that would go away if people stopped believing in it, but The Machine would continue to exist even if all those parts were removed (though it would look incredibly different).

they've never heard of the machine itself, no

but the whole damn engine is build on faith

-the faith that spending 40hours/week working is a fair trade for the income
-participation in the system leads to rewards such as status, comfort, and luxury
-civilization is built on a network of cooperation towards mutual self-interest
-if you don't like how things are going, there are official channels you must go through to affect change (call the police, write to politicians, etc)

if people stopped believing in any of these things, it would send a tremor through the whole engine
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cramulus on June 29, 2010, 06:36:19 pm
From the Chao Te Ching (http://principiadiscordia.com/cramulus/index.php?title=Chapters_21-30)...

Chapter 23
The Machine™ is built by our behaviors;
Our unconscious desires,
our conscious schemes.
Built by the expectations we create through our expectations,
the action we create through our actions,
the jobs we create with our jobs,
the world we create with our world.
 
But as a traffic jam does not last all morning,
nor a bad day lasts a lifetime,
a good mood is often fleeting,
and fortune does not always smile.
The Machine™ contains more than is apparent.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: AFK on June 29, 2010, 06:52:09 pm
The thing is people have seen The Machine prominently in action.  I'm thinking of the elections in Iran.  How many people were saying and hoping the same thing.  That the people relentlessly take to the streets and fight against the system.  People were tweeting and rooting for them.  All the while not recognizing that we too are part of a system that suppresses and for too many, oppresses.  It may feel less violent and less dangerous, but it does hold people down. 

And this is why ignorance isn't bliss.  The ignorance helps to fuel it.  Why change what you think is working?  The politicians keep telling us The American Way is working and will always work.  Why change?  Why think about change?  Let's mock hope and change.  That is silly talk for people living in the wonderful world of make-believe. 
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on June 29, 2010, 06:53:43 pm
I like RWHN's points. The Machine™ is not necessarily evil, but it does maintain the Status Quo in a way that limits experience. It lays out a track for every person, based on a number of quantifiable circumstances, and makes it incredibly easy for each person to follow the path laid out for them. So easy that it might be considered pushing people down their respective tracks. These tracks, these predictable life paths, are the "cogs" of the machine. As people move down them, the cogs spin, and they set off other cogs. Everyone going silently along their tracks and doing what is expected of them makes for a very quiet-running Machine™.

The problem with the Machine™ is that without a breakdown in the tracks, nobody has to examine the Machine™ at all. Nobody has to find out why the Machine™ is making so much noise, why it's breaking down, or how to fix it. If we are all quiet and stay in our places and stick to our tracks, not only do we miss out on a lot of opportunities and experiences as RWHN said, but the Machine™ will barrel on in whatever path it chooses - the logical conclusion of whatever direction it is on, and those conclusions are never good ones.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on June 29, 2010, 06:55:36 pm
Has there ever been a time without the Machine? OR has there ever been a time when the Machine was less restrictive/status quo/limiting in experience whatever?

Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on June 29, 2010, 07:00:38 pm
Has there ever been a time without the Machine? OR has there ever been a time when the Machine was less restrictive/status quo/limiting in experience whatever?



I don't think so. Maybe in prehistoric times when the Machine was more or less all about basic survival, there were fewer social stigmas. But maybe not. I do think there was a time when there were more than one Machine; when far-separated civilizations had their own separate Machines, fairly alien ideologies and cultures, different ways of thinking and experiencing the world. But these Machines all served the same overall purpose, and that purpose made them inherently compatible, so as civilizations met, their Machines melted together (or in the case of war, devoured each other).
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Captain Utopia on June 29, 2010, 07:16:18 pm
The Machine™ [...] makes it incredibly easy for each person to follow the path laid out for them. So easy that it might be considered pushing people down their respective tracks.

Bullshit.  There is no elite with its hands on the wheel, we all have our own wheels and every day we make the choice to keep driving down the same roads as yesterday.  Everyone, myself included, is complicit in this, and we are not being "generous" or "compassionate" to make excuses for those "unthinking unware monkeys" - we're just justifying our own lack of conviction by proxy.

Certain concepts guarantee continual servitude.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Jenne on June 29, 2010, 07:40:19 pm
The thing is people have seen The Machine prominently in action.  I'm thinking of the elections in Iran.  How many people were saying and hoping the same thing.  That the people relentlessly take to the streets and fight against the system.  People were tweeting and rooting for them.  All the while not recognizing that we too are part of a system that suppresses and for too many, oppresses.  It may feel less violent and less dangerous, but it does hold people down.  

And this is why ignorance isn't bliss.  The ignorance helps to fuel it.  Why change what you think is working?  The politicians keep telling us The American Way is working and will always work.  Why change?  Why think about change?  Let's mock hope and change.  That is silly talk for people living in the wonderful world of make-believe.  

Ignorance is MOCK bliss.  It's a faker, and it is like a drug--once it wears off, you're back to square one, you poor pitiful fool (you = general you, not you, RWHN).

Change is...well, the unknown.  And we naturally, instinctively FEAR the unknown.  So really, it's just people being people when they run away from change and stick to their guns, no matter how destructive they might be (guns don't kill people, people do?).
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cramulus on June 29, 2010, 07:41:02 pm
I don't think the machine is evil. It's just the status quo. It's the pressure which keeps things the way they are.

The other day I was walking around in a most outlandish outfit, exploring my new town in absurd getup. I was quickly surrounded by 15 children. The majority of them thought it was great. But one little girl (I'd guess age 11 or 12) kept questioning me in a sort of hostile tone as if I was insane.

"So is this your job?"

"No I just like dressing up like this."

"What are you doing?"

"I'm not doing anything, I'm just going for a walk just like you."

"Why are you doing this?"

"I really don't understand what you're asking!!"


I couldn't quite convey to her that I'm just a regular dude who is marching to his own beat, not some kind of amusement park character engaging in a capitalist money making scheme.

That's the pressure of the machine right there, it's the bewildered expression directed at anything coming from outside of one's expectations. In all of the girl's questions, I could tell there was a hidden unspoken question behind it, "Why don't you just act normal?"


Has there ever been a time without the Machine? OR has there ever been a time when the Machine was less restrictive/status quo/limiting in experience whatever?

I think the power of the machine is related to population density. The more contact you have with other humans, the more pressure they can put on you. The more rewards and punishments you're exposed to, the more blind spots you develop to rewards/punishments outside the system.

There was a period of history where you could say "Fuck everything, I'm becoming a pirate." It's a LOT harder to make that leap now.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: AFK on June 29, 2010, 08:26:00 pm
I think if you could re-orient communities somehow.  Many societies and cultures came together to centralize resources, agricultural capacities, industrial capacities, etc., It was about being able to have a diverse work force.  A lot of stuff focused on work and the products of work.  Certainly, cultural aspects were important too, but I think The Machine comes from an imbalance.  When the drive focused on production leaves parts of the culture behind, meanwhile, suppressing the space for individualism to shine and grow. 

The material stuff, the basics that allow us to live are important.  But it feels like "the art of playing games" needs to have a more prominent role in our basic needs.  We need to nourish creativity, imagination along with nourishing our stomachs.  We need to have that shelter, that space where we can fly in our minds, and explore the world beyond our homes.  But there really isn't any cultural imperative for that kind of thing.  There are individuals who try to cultivate it, try to champion it, but it is such a huge challenge.  It's like trying to travel upstream on a boat made of cardboard.   
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on June 29, 2010, 10:36:12 pm
I'm sure there are those who would say that much of the dissatisfaction with modern society comes from having too much free time and imagination. Arguably, we have far more time for recreation now than in ages past. Many would say the idea that one's identity as an individual need not be linked to his profession is a relatively new concept, and they would be right. Only in the last century, really, has anyone had the opportunity to define him- or herself by anything other than his job.

That people find it difficult in life to break out of the boxes they are born into is hardly anything new. And there have been outlaws and pirates who live outside the mainstream, for as long as there has been a mainstream. Granted, the "mainstream" has adapted in strange ways to account for these, for example by establishing "sub-cultures" where you can be ostensibly outside of the mainstream yet still every bit as defined by it.

If it is a lack of recreation and fun, or an imbalance in favor of work and productivity, that give rise to the Machine, then the Machine should be losing influence at a fast pace now. But instead, it is growing exponentially. What is it feeding on, then?

One thing that is new today (or at least a lot more pronounced now than ever before) is that we have plenty of society but we're facing a drought of community. It's easy to disconnect from nearly everyone around you, including your family and your friends, and just live your life the way you want to. It's socially acceptable to have nearly no real contact with other humans at all. It might be "sad" or "creepy," but everyone is just as happy not talking to you as you are not talking to them. Oftentimes this includes those who would, traditionally, be inseparable from one another -- parents and their children, spouses, siblings, cousins. On the floor of the production line there are humans working not ten feet away and you might never speak a single word to them in the course of decades. In the office, there's a lot of banter and not much friendship.

Maybe the Machine is a function of everyone going about their daily lives on their own. The mainstream has expanded and reorganized to make room for a million different life choices and maybe the wires it must use to keep itself together are what we think of as overbearing restrictions. Maybe the Machine is under a lot of stress as its components spring loose and fly apart, as it must shift and distort itself constantly to maintain the appearance of a cohesive society, to keep large numbers of people more or less traveling in the same direction while they are less and less satisfied with that direction and everyone has a different idea of where they'd like to go next.

A snapshot of society at any moment will look pretty uneventful -- most people are slaves to the daily grind, nobody looks up from the grindstone from very long, and our customs and beliefs look fairly static. But taking a video clip instead of a snapshot might show the gradual dissolution of our society, as we morph into a species united more by ideas than by geography. And if that is the case, it's no wonder that the Machine is doing everything it can do to become the force controlling our thoughts as much as our actions.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on June 30, 2010, 06:17:59 am
But what is wrong with this system, if people are happy?

Ignorance is bliss...
The Machine sounds like deception for the benefit of the decieved rather than the deceiver.

If people are indeed happy, then I guess there's nothing wrong with it. However...


Less than half of Americans are satisfied with their jobs (http://www.wave3.com/global/story.asp?s=11773730).

Suicide is the third leading cause of death for people aged 15-24 in the United States of America.

I'm sure some of our non-American members can fill in figures for their own countries.


Every year, we're popping more pills and getting more therapy. And for crying out loud, we in the first world have to actually fight against the convenience we've made for ourselves over the decades, because it makes us fat and sick.

I dunno man. That's a pretty big "if" you've got there. Unless perhaps by "happy" you meant "complicit," but that would just be very odd indeed.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on June 30, 2010, 06:28:01 am
But what is wrong with this system, if people are happy?

Ignorance is bliss...
The Machine sounds like deception for the benefit of the decieved rather than the deceiver.

If people are indeed happy, then I guess there's nothing wrong with it. However...


Less than half of Americans are satisfied with their jobs (http://www.wave3.com/global/story.asp?s=11773730).

Suicide is the third leading cause of death for people aged 15-24 in the United States of America.

I'm sure some of our non-American members can fill in figures for their own countries.


Every year, we're popping more pills and getting more therapy. And for crying out loud, we in the first world have to actually fight against the convenience we've made for ourselves over the decades, because it makes us fat and sick.

I dunno man. That's a pretty big "if" you've got there. Unless perhaps by "happy" you meant "complicit," but that would just be very odd indeed.

TITCM.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 30, 2010, 11:35:35 am
Has there ever been a time without the Machine? OR has there ever been a time when the Machine was less restrictive/status quo/limiting in experience whatever?



I think the cutural Machine seems to have evolved in the same way as the technological machine. It started with the wheel and first there was just the one and then four got stuck together and became the cart and that was even better and then the wheel became the flywheel and the cog and the more you stuck together the more shit you could do and clockwork became electricity and electricity became electronics then microelectronics to the point where now we have a billion or so tiny - essentially wheels - in a 1cm square chunk of substrate and it does everything.

First there was a couple of grunts and they could do things like "left" "right" "stop" "go" "charge" and "duck!" and these got added to as society evolved and the concepts became more and more abstract and they began to actually shape and mould our developing consciousness. Words like "good" and "evil", "happy" and "sad", "greedy", "righteous" ... and these were combined, these tiny wheels of thought - in a 1 foot thick chunk of reconstituted tree and they became "law"
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 30, 2010, 03:21:08 pm
From The Devil's (Discordian) Dictionary:  http://www.erisbarandgrill.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=10631&page=1

Quote
2.  Happiness: (Noun)  Happiness should be a fairly simple concept, but it's one that 95% of the population doesn't actually understand.  Most often confused with complacency or contentment  (see below for both), happiness is neither of these things.

Happiness is, quite simply, a state in which being alive is fun.  It is a state of actively enjoying yourself, even if you aren't doing anything.  Think back to when you were a kid, before They did all this shit to you, and remember how it felt when they let you out of school for the summer, and you were damn near fit to bust with glee at the thought of an entire endless summer stretching out ahead of you.  That's happiness.

Unfortunately, most people think that you buy happiness on easy credit terms.  They think their SUV will make them happy, or the big fucking house they have (until the ARM adjusts, at least), or the HUGE plasma screen TV that costs more than most of the humans make in their lifetime.  The fact that they spend all their time sweating the bills doesn't register as being unhappy, because they have - at least for the moment - all the things the TV said they should have.

Happiness, like Slack™, isn't something you can buy, and it's not something They can give you (though they can take it away, if you let them).  It's you, being glad you're you, no matter what situation you find yourself in.  As my 87 year old Uncle George says, "I'm here to have a good time, and if you're not having a good time, it's your own damn fault *cackle*".

vs

Quote
3.  Complacency: (Noun):  Most often confused with happiness, and closely related to False Slack, complacency is the feeling that They want you to spend most of your time in. 

Complacency is the state of feeling like everything is Okay.  When you're in this state, you don't actually want anything to be BETTER than okay, because that might remind you that some things - many things - are less than okay.

Complacency is the feeling you get when you make all your minimum payments for the month, and still have just enough money for a 30 pack of some horrible "beer" that's already been through a cow once or twice.

Complacency is the feeling you get when you get off of work in time to scurry home like a crazed weasel so you don't miss the next exciting episode of American Idol or that fucking abortion Lost.

Complacency is the enemy of happiness, because it is a state in which you are afraid to do anything different, because it might disrupt a life which, though not enjoyable, is comfortable and safe.  Unlike happiness, when you're complacent, you aren't actually having FUN.  You're treading water to avoid unpleasantness, either physical, financial, emotional, or just being knocked out of your comfort zone.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cosine 5 on June 30, 2010, 03:42:47 pm
Damn, Dok, I've been confusing happiness with complacency all this time.

One thing that is new today (or at least a lot more pronounced now than ever before) is that we have plenty of society but we're facing a drought of community.

This is a good point; as a teenager, I haven't seen much of the "real world" yet, but I do know that we at least are affected most negatively by society - what society wants us to be, how we should be. It causes eating disorders and all this other crap. However, I don't think teenagers yet feel the lack of community. We tend to value friendship a little too much, as we have very little else to value. Do people grow apart as they grow up?

I haven't seen the "real world" yet, but these ideas I'm encountering on this forum are frightening, to say the least. Yet my mind craves some "real" stimulation, some real ideas to think about, because I'm beginning to realize that the things that I used to contemplate all the time don't matter at all.

Forgive me for my childishness. I'm rather short.  :x

But what is wrong with this system, if people are happy?

Ignorance is bliss...
The Machine sounds like deception for the benefit of the decieved rather than the deceiver.

That was my reaction to reading 1984.

If the proles seem to like it, what's the problem?

It was also my reaction to reading Brave New World.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Captain Utopia on June 30, 2010, 04:39:52 pm
This is a good point; as a teenager, I haven't seen much of the "real world" yet, but I do know that we at least are affected most negatively by society - what society wants us to be, how we should be. It causes eating disorders and all this other crap. However, I don't think teenagers yet feel the lack of community. We tend to value friendship a little too much, as we have very little else to value. Do people grow apart as they grow up?

It's a good question.  But put it this way - you're growing up in a very different world from that which most of us did.  For your entire teenage existence, email/myspace/facebook/youtube/etc have all been a reality.  You're able to draw upon a vast network of superficial acquaintances, and realise the potential in any of them.  Let me give you an example - the day after high-school ended for me, after the last prom.. I realised that I really should have asked this cute girl out while I had the chance, because now I had no conceivable way of getting in touch with her.  I didn't have her telephone number, email wasn't around, I didn't know any of her friends.  Short of putting an advert in the newspaper, I was screwed.  If that had happened today, then I think the story would have played out quite differently.

So really, I think you get to answer that "do people grow apart" question for yourself, because your generation is writing the new rules and social norms for the rest of us.  If that makes any sense?

And personally, I hope to god you manage to bring back a sense of community to our civilisation, because we've failed miserably on that front.  Best of luck with that!
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cosine 5 on July 01, 2010, 02:17:35 am
So really, I think you get to answer that "do people grow apart" question for yourself, because your generation is writing the new rules and social norms for the rest of us.  If that makes any sense?

I actually think age has a lot to do with the status quo.
At the heart of friendship is a sort of mutual dependency - a need for one another.
Younger people, like me, are very used to being dependent on others, so we don't have a problem with friendships.
Older people, however, are expected to take care of themselves. So they don't really like to tell friends about their troubles; after all, no need to burden other people with their problems. Exhibiting any sort of need then would be... childish.
Furthermore, older people don't like change. They need the status quo; they are the status quo. They've already found their own identities, they've already settled down and they have found security. Any revolution is not a promise but a threat; any change in the status quo would just uproot them.
And the younger ones are still searching, endless possibilities ahead of them. The future is not safely set in stone for them as it is for the adults above them; the future is still uncarved for them, and it is still theirs to define. So we define it. And we define our own status quo as youth, and in old age we defend it. Thus, each generation has its own status quo, which it creates from what existed before it, and then tries to maintain.

I'm honestly concerned about my generation. We grow up in a world swamped with superficiality. The drive behind most of our conversations and thoughts is no longer the head or heart, but the genitalia. We live where one is easily paralyzed by choices, by the endless temptations all offered to us in shiny plastic packaging. With stars. And rainbows. And bubble lettered trademarked slogans printed all squiggly on larger-than-me ads. And honestly, from all I've seen going on in all the schools I've ever attended, I'm afraid for the future. So many kids are doing drugs and smoking and drinking and generally doing very stupid things... and their numbers are increasing. They are starting to become the majority. They refuse to just die off.

And when thinking about writing the new rules and social norms, well, my head starts to spin. What the fuck am I going to do?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Captain Utopia on July 11, 2010, 03:40:22 am
So really, I think you get to answer that "do people grow apart" question for yourself, because your generation is writing the new rules and social norms for the rest of us.  If that makes any sense?

I actually think age has a lot to do with the status quo.
At the heart of friendship is a sort of mutual dependency - a need for one another.
Younger people, like me, are very used to being dependent on others, so we don't have a problem with friendships.
Older people, however, are expected to take care of themselves. So they don't really like to tell friends about their troubles; after all, no need to burden other people with their problems. Exhibiting any sort of need then would be... childish.
Furthermore, older people don't like change. They need the status quo; they are the status quo. They've already found their own identities, they've already settled down and they have found security. Any revolution is not a promise but a threat; any change in the status quo would just uproot them.
And the younger ones are still searching, endless possibilities ahead of them. The future is not safely set in stone for them as it is for the adults above them; the future is still uncarved for them, and it is still theirs to define. So we define it. And we define our own status quo as youth, and in old age we defend it. Thus, each generation has its own status quo, which it creates from what existed before it, and then tries to maintain.

I agree that's accurate as far as it plays out - another question is why?

Personally, and I only have the most pointless layman credentials and flimsy back-of-envelope theorising to back this up, but I think there's something happening at a neurological level that supports the trend towards conservatism with age.  Supports, not forces.

Or maybe it's just a function of consciousness, that we pattern seek until we have most every pattern we need to live our lives, and the rut deepens every time we fail to question ourselves. Convenient guidelines become an addictive routine.  Dopamine fires with every match of a trusted pattern.  I'm convinced even the most sober Judge gets a little high whenever they rap on their gavel.  But like any long-term addict, the tolerance builds over time and then each hit is just getting by.  You know how many recent-retirees go stir-crazy in the first few months without their regular fix?

And it's a fine line for sure - it's no way to live constantly questioning your every move - if there is a healthy balance I have no idea what that is.


I'm honestly concerned about my generation. We grow up in a world swamped with superficiality. The drive behind most of our conversations and thoughts is no longer the head or heart, but the genitalia. We live where one is easily paralyzed by choices, by the endless temptations all offered to us in shiny plastic packaging. With stars. And rainbows. And bubble lettered trademarked slogans printed all squiggly on larger-than-me ads. And honestly, from all I've seen going on in all the schools I've ever attended, I'm afraid for the future. So many kids are doing drugs and smoking and drinking and generally doing very stupid things... and their numbers are increasing. They are starting to become the majority. They refuse to just die off.

I wouldn't fret this one too much.  At least until you can address why your generation is any different from the last few, myself included, in that regard.


And when thinking about writing the new rules and social norms, well, my head starts to spin. What the fuck am I going to do?

It's an awesome question, and one you really don't ever need to stop asking yourself.  You only really have two choices - do what you're told, or make shit up as you go along.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cosine 5 on July 11, 2010, 03:37:48 pm
Why?

People like certitude. They like security. I don't know if it's neurological, but psychologically people like to feel safe. And people feel safe when they know that they have beliefs that they can support and they know what they'll be doing tomorrow, and they know they can settle into a lifestyle and be whatever that it is that that lifestyle makes them be. I know I can't wait until I get a job and a house and a family and just settle down, because then I know I have a secure income etc.

That's part of the Machine - it plays on our need for security. This is why people work 40 hours a week, even doing things they don't like. In return for our working, the Machine gives us a sort of insurance, that is, it tells us that whatever happens, we won't starve. We will have a steady income and it shall keep us alive. One less thing to worry about, that is. And people do this because they don't have any other way to feel secure. The Machine gives them peace of mind at that level, in exchange for... slavery to the Machine?

I could rebel against employment, but if I'm unemployed, I might die.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on July 11, 2010, 11:06:48 pm
Yes yes, security, employment, etc...

And then the economy crashes and you get laid off and can't find a new career before your saving dry up. Some great machine, huh?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on July 11, 2010, 11:09:30 pm
Yes yes, security, employment, etc...

And then the economy crashes and you get laid off and can't find a new career before your saving dry up. Some great machine, huh?

lol, savings.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on July 11, 2010, 11:15:05 pm
Yes yes, security, employment, etc...

And then the economy crashes and you get laid off and can't find a new career before your saving dry up. Some great machine, huh?

lol, savings.

I am such a kidder. :)
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on July 12, 2010, 01:12:53 am
Yes yes, security, employment, etc...

And then the economy crashes and you get laid off and can't find a new career before your saving dry up. Some great machine, huh?

lol, savings.

I have $2.14 in it.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Jasper on July 12, 2010, 08:53:18 am
I don't even like the fact that they won't just let me put my money in a bucket, in the vault.  Once in a while, print a cheque for me, but other than that, gimme a federally insured vault bucket.  Savings my ass.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on July 12, 2010, 01:25:26 pm
Just to be contrary, there are quite a few signs of what you guys are considering, for want of a better term, emergent conspiracy, as actually being consciously chosen by specific elite factions.

For example, modern public relations and advertising was an outgrowth of both war propaganda and the psychoanalytic theories of Sigmund Freud, applied by his nephew Edward Bernays.  There is a ton of evidence that the CIA and similar intelligence agencies carried out psychological warfare operations against domestic audiences, to produce certain concrete political objectives, create certain opinions and sideline others, and these operations are still being undertaken.  Game theory has been purposefully applied to the modern political scene for force people into certain zero-sum situations, the better to control them by restricting their options.

And so on and so forth.

Not everything is conscious choice, but equally not everything is serendipitous misfortune, without any agents at all making specific decisions.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cramulus on July 12, 2010, 02:38:44 pm
There is a ton of evidence that the CIA and similar intelligence agencies carried out psychological warfare operations against domestic audiences, to produce certain concrete political objectives, create certain opinions and sideline others, and these operations are still being undertaken.  Game theory has been purposefully applied to the modern political scene for force people into certain zero-sum situations, the better to control them by restricting their options.

well that is terrifying. What keywords would I look up to learn more?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on July 12, 2010, 02:42:29 pm
"Strategy of Tension" is a good start....false flag bombings designed to discredit Communist parties in Europe by linking them to terrorist violence.

There is an entire book on how the CIA and Pentagon bankrolled the vast majority of studies into communication into the 1960s, creating an obsession within the academic community on themes of power and propaganda in communication theory to the detriment of other aspects of the science (because funding was only going to towards those who studied such topics).  I'll get the name later. 

And tons of other sources as well.  Basically, despite the foreign orientation of most intelligence agencies, it is far easier to carry out psy-ops on a target population the most similar to the mentality of the agents carrying it out ie the society they come from.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Jenne on July 12, 2010, 03:16:07 pm
...is that the same time period that subliminal messages were introduced, Cain?  I vaguely remember something that I learned about subversion techniques in mass media, etc.  And inciting paranoia about subjects that were barely known amongst populations that didn't heretofore suscribe to aforementioned paranoia (like proposing new home owners build bomb shelters, etc.).  The building up of Cold War hysteria, for instance, as well.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on July 12, 2010, 03:22:16 pm
I don't know much about subliminal messages and, to be honest, have always considered them to be something of a pseudoscience, based on what I do know.  But they were almost certainly tried at the time - this was the same period when the CIA was using LSD regularly and investigating various religious traditions for insights on how to manipulate populations.  They tried everything from electroshock therapy (the infamous Dr Cameron in Canada) to passing along fake information to journalists about various foreign wars, knowing they'd regurgitate it in the press and thus create the impression they wanted, and the climate of fear/suspicion which they found useful.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on July 12, 2010, 04:32:09 pm
From The Science of Coercion: Communication Research and Psychological Warfare 1945-1960:

Quote
Since World War II, U.S. military and NATO manuals have typically defined "psychological warfare" or "psychological operations" as tac-tics as varied as propaganda, covert operations, guerrilla warfare, and, more recently, public diplomacy. Communist theoreticians have often referred to somewhat similar activities as "agitation and propaganda" and regarded them as a component of the related, yet broader concepts known as class struggle and peoples' war. British and Nazi German strategies and tactics in the field have historically been termed "political warfare" and Weltanschauungskrieg ("worldview warfare"), respectively. Each of these conceptualizations of psychological warfare explicitly links mass communication with selective application of violence (murder, sabotage, assassination, insurrection, counterinsurrection, etc.) as a means of achieving  ideological, political, or military goals. These overlapping conceptual systems often contributed to one another's development, while retaining characteristics of the political and cultural assumptions of the social system that generated it.

Within the present context, psychological warfare can best be understood as a group of strategies and tactics designed to achieve the
ideological, political, or military objectives of the sponsoring organization (typically a government or  political movement) through exploitation of a target audience's cultural-psychological attributes and its communication system. Put another way, psychological warfare is the application of mass communication to modern social conflict: it focuses on the combined use of violence and  more conventional forms of communication to achieve politicomilitary goals.

A more complete illustration of the U.S. government's view of psy-chological warfare can be found in the definition used by the U.S. Army
in war planning during the early cold war years. The army's definition was classified as top secret at the time it was promulgated (early 1948) and remained officially secret until the late 1980s, when I obtained a collection of early psychological  warfare planning records through a Freedom of Information Act request. One of these documents reads:

Quote
Psychological warfare employs all moral and physical means, other than orthodox military operations, which tend to:

a. destroy the will and the ability of the enemy to fight.
b. deprive him of the support of his allies and neutrals.
c. increase in our own troops and allies the will to victory.

Psychological warfare employs any weapon to influence the mind of the enemy. The weapons are psychological only in the effect they produce and not because of the nature of the weapons themselves. In this light, overt (white), covert (black), and gray propaganda; subversion; sabotage; special operations; guerrilla warfare; espionage; political, cultural, economic, and racial pressures are all effective weapons. They are effective because they produce dissension, distrust, fear and hopelessness in the minds of the enemy, not because they originate in the psyche of propaganda or psychological warfare agencies.

The phrase "special operations," as  used here, is defined in a second document as:

Quote
those activities against the enemy  which are conducted by allied or friendly forces behind enemy lines.... [They] include psychological warfare (black), clandestine warfare,  subversion, sabotage, and miscellaneous operations such as assassination, target capture and rescue of downed airmen.

The army study goes on to summarize several of the tactics of persuasion just outlined, the three most basic of which are known as "white," "black," and "gray" propaganda. "White propaganda," the army states, "stress[es] simplicity, clarity and repetition." It is designed to be perceived by its audience as truthful, balanced, and factual, and the United States publicly acknowledged its promotion of this type of information through outlets such as the Voice of America. "Black" propaganda, in contrast, "stresses trouble, confusion, . . . and terror."
A variation of black propaganda tactics involves forging enemy documents and distributing them to target audiences as a means of discrediting rival powers. The U.S. government officially denies that it employs black propaganda, but in fact it has long been an integral aspect of U.S. foreign and domestic policy. "Gray"  propaganda, as its name suggests, exists somewhere between "white" and "black" and typically involves planting false information about rivals in news outlets that claim to be independent of the U.S. government.

 Other U.S. Army and National Security Council documents from the same period stress three additional attributes of the U.S. psychological warfare strategy of the day: the use  of "plausible deniability" to permit the government to deny responsibility for "black" operations that were in truth originated by the United States; a conscious policy of polarizing neutral nations into either "pro-" or "anti-U.S." camps; and the
clandestine targeting of the U.S. population, in addition to that of foreign countries, for psychological operations. [/size]

Quote
U.S. military, propaganda, and intelligence agencies favored an approach to the study of mass communication that offered both an explanation of what communication "is" (at least insofar as those agencies' missions were concerned) and a box of tools for examining it. Put most simply, they saw mass communication as an instrument for persuading or dominating targeted groups. They understood "communication" as little more than a form of transmission into which virtually any type of message could be plugged (once one had mastered the appropriate techniques) to achieve ideological, political, or military goals. Academic contractors convinced their clients that scientific dissection and measurement of the constituent elements of mass communication would lead to the development of powerful new tools for social management, in somewhat the same way earlier science had paved the way for penicillin, electric lights, and the atom bomb. Federal patrons meanwhile  believed that analysis of audiences and communication effects could improve ongoing propaganda and intelligence programs.

Quote
At heart modern psychological warfare has been a tool for managing empire, not for settling conflicts in any fundamental sense. It has operated largely as a means to ensure that indigenous democratic initiatives in the Third World and Europe did not go "too far" from the standpoint of U.S. security agencies. Its primary utility has been its ability to suppress or distort unauthorized communication among subject peoples, including domestic U.S. dissenters who challenged the wisdom or morality of imperial policies. In practice modern psychological warfare and propaganda have only rarely offered "alternatives" to violence over the medium-to-long term. Instead, they have been an integral part of a strategy and culture whose premise is the rule of the strong at the expense of the weak, where coercion and manipulation pose as "communication" and close off opportunities for other, more genuine, forms of understanding. The problem with psychological warfare is not so much the content of individual messages: It is instead its consistent role as an instrument for maintaining grossly abusive social structures, notably in global North/South relations.

Quote
In time psychological warfare projects become essential to the survival of important centers of what are today regarded as mainstream mass communication studies in the United States. They were central to the professional careers of many of the men usually presented as the "founding fathers" of the field; in fact, the process of selecting and anointing founding fathers has often consisted of attributing enduring scientific value to projects that were initiated as applied studies in psychological warfare. Thus Daniel Lerner's Passing of Traditional Society—today widely recognized as the foundation of the development theory school of communication studies—is usually remembered as a politically neutral scientific enterprise. In reality, Lerner's work was conceived and carried out for the specific purpose of advancing U.S. propaganda programs in the Middle East.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on July 12, 2010, 04:46:21 pm
A synopsis of the Adam Curtis documentary, The Trap:

Quote
In this episode, Curtis examines the rise of game theory during the Cold War and the way in which its mathematical models of human behaviour filtered into economic thought. The programme traces the development of game theory with particular reference to the work of John Nash, who believed that all humans were inherently suspicious and selfish creatures that strategised constantly. Using this as his first premise, Nash constructed logically consistent and mathematically verifiable models, for which he won the Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences, commonly referred to as the Nobel Prize in Economics. He invented system games reflecting his beliefs about human behaviour, including one he called "Fuck You Buddy" (later published as "So Long Sucker"), in which the only way to win was to betray your playing partner, and it is from this game that the episode's title is taken. These games were internally coherent and worked correctly as long as the players obeyed the ground rules that they should behave selfishly and try to outwit their opponents, but when RAND's analysts tried the games on their own secretaries, they instead chose not to betray each other, but to cooperate every time. This did not, in the eyes of the analysts, discredit the models, but instead proved that the secretaries were unfit subjects.

What was not known at the time was that Nash was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia, and, as a result, was deeply suspicious of everyone around him—including his colleagues—and was convinced that many were involved in conspiracies against him. It was this mistaken belief that led to his view of people as a whole that formed the basis for his theories. Footage of an older and wiser Nash was shown in which he acknowledges that his paranoid views of other people at the time were false.

Curtis examines how game theory was used to create the USA's nuclear strategy during the Cold War. Because no nuclear war occurred, it was believed that game theory had been correct in dictating the creation and maintenance of a massive American nuclear arsenal—because the Soviet Union had not attacked America with its nuclear weapons, the supposed deterrent must have worked. Game theory during the Cold War is a subject Curtis examined in more detail in the To The Brink of Eternity part of his first series, Pandora's Box, and he reuses much of the same archive material in doing so.

A separate strand in the documentary is the work of R.D. Laing, whose work in psychiatry led him to model familial interactions using game theory. His conclusion was that humans are inherently selfish, shrewd, and spontaneously generate strategems during everyday interactions. Laing's theories became more developed when he concluded that some forms of mental illness were merely artificial labels, used by the state to suppress individual suffering. This belief became a staple tenet of counterculture during the 1960s. Reference is made to the Rosenhan experiment, in which bogus patients, surreptitiously self-presenting at a number of American psychiatric institutions, were falsely diagnosed as having mental disorders, while institutions, informed that they were to receive bogus patients, "identified" numerous supposed imposters who were actually genuine patients. The results of the experiment were a disaster for American psychiatry, because they destroyed the idea that psychiatrists were a privileged elite able to genuinely diagnose, and therefore treat, mental illness.

All these theories tended to support the beliefs of what were then fringe economists such as Friedrich von Hayek, whose economic models left no room for altruism, but depended purely on self-interest, leading to the formation of public choice theory. In an interview, the economist James M. Buchanan decries the notion of the "public interest", asking what it is and suggesting that it consists purely of the self-interest of the governing bureaucrats. Buchanan also proposes that organisations should employ managers who are motivated only by money. He describes those who are motivated by other factors—such as job satisfaction or a sense of public duty—as "zealots".

As the 1960s became the 1970s, the theories of Laing and the models of Nash began to converge, producing a widespread popular belief that the state (a surrogate family) was purely and simply a mechanism of social control which calculatedly kept power out of the hands of the public. Curtis shows that it was this belief that allowed the theories of Hayek to look credible, and underpinned the free-market beliefs of Margaret Thatcher, who sincerely believed that by dismantling as much of the British state as possible—and placing former national institutions into the hands of public shareholders—a form of social equilibrium would be reached. This was a return to Nash's work, in which he proved mathematically that if everyone was pursuing their own interests, a stable, yet perpetually dynamic, society could result.

The episode ends with the suggestion that this mathematically modelled society is run on data—performance targets, quotas, statistics—and that it is these figures combined with the exaggerated belief in human selfishness that has created "a cage" for Western humans. The precise nature of the "cage" is to be discussed in the next episode.

Quote
The programme describes how the Clinton administration gave in to market theorists in the US and how New Labour in the UK decided to measure everything it could, the better to improve it, introducing such artificial and unmeasurable targets as:

    * Reduction of hunger in Sub-Saharan Africa by 48%
    * Reduction of global conflict by 6%

It also introduced a rural community vibrancy index in order to gauge the quality of life in British villages and a birdsong index to check the apparent decline of wildlife.

In industry and the public services, this way of thinking led to a plethora of targets, quotas, and plans. It was meant to set workers free to achieve these targets in any way they chose. What these game-theory schemes did not predict was that the players, faced with impossible demands, would cheat.

Curtis describes how, in order to meet artificially inflated targets:

    * Lothian and Borders Police reclassified dozens of criminal offences as "suspicious occurrences", in order to keep them out of crime figures;
    * Some NHS hospital trusts created an unofficial post of "The Hello Nurse,"[6] whose sole task it was to greet new arrivals in order to claim for statistical purposes that the patient had been "seen," even though no treatment or even examination had occurred during the encounter;
    * NHS managers took the wheels off trolleys and reclassified them as beds, while simultaneously reclassifying corridors as wards, in order to falsify Accident & Emergency waiting times statistics.

In a section called "The Death of Social Mobility", Curtis also describes how the theory of the free market was applied to education. With league tables of school performance published, the richest parents moved house to get their children into better schools. This caused house prices in the appropriate catchment areas to rise dramatically—thus excluding poorer parents who were left with the worst-performing schools. This is just one aspect of a more rigidly stratified society, which Curtis identifies in the way in which the incomes of the poorest (working class) Americans have actually fallen in real terms since the 1970s, while the incomes of the average (middle class) have increased slightly and those of the highest earners (upper class) have quadrupled. Similarly, babies in poorer areas in the UK are twice as likely to die in their first year as children from prosperous areas.

Curtis's narration concludes with the observation that the game theory/free market model is now undergoing interrogation by economists who suspect a more irrational model of behaviour is appropriate and useful. In fact, in formal experiments the only people who behaved exactly according to the mathematical models created by game theory are economists themselves, or psychopaths.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LMNO on July 12, 2010, 04:51:17 pm
I never really connected Nash's paranoia with the inherent selfishness of his models. 

And it's really interesting to see how that one premise colored several generations of IR.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cramulus on July 12, 2010, 04:57:44 pm
LMNO beat me to mentioning that interesting nash/schizo connection...

I had read about the Rosenhan experiment, but not the non-existent impostor experiment.


great reading, thanks Cain
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on July 12, 2010, 05:30:04 pm
Not a problem.  I will attempt to find more stuff along these lines on my days off (ie from Sunday onwards).
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on July 13, 2010, 05:26:18 am
...is that the same time period that subliminal messages were introduced, Cain?  I vaguely remember something that I learned about subversion techniques in mass media, etc.  And inciting paranoia about subjects that were barely known amongst populations that didn't heretofore suscribe to aforementioned paranoia (like proposing new home owners build bomb shelters, etc.).  The building up of Cold War hysteria, for instance, as well.

I've done some research on subliminals and they have a very weak priming effect when done properly and no effect when done badly. They were abandoned by advertisers not long after they started being used due to backlash when people found out ads had subliminal content. But moreso because they learned that overt sexual and status themes are way more effective.

The truth is really quite disappointing compared to the Svengali-like mythology surrounding it.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LMNO on July 13, 2010, 01:26:09 pm
Of course, that's exactly what they want you to think.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cramulus on July 13, 2010, 02:26:53 pm
back when I had cable, I became very keenly aware of the subliminal ads on comedy central.

You can catch it right before they come back from a commercial break, they'll flash one frame of an ad for like 1/3rd of a second. Most people don't even notice it.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Kai on July 13, 2010, 02:50:06 pm
After reading some of the Less Wrong sequences, I'm not so sure about using "Emergence" anymore. It's starting to feel more like invoking magic, and it doesn't actually /explain/ anything, just gives a semantic stopsign (http://lesswrong.com/lw/it/semantic_stopsigns/).

While I like using emergence to describe the universal tendency for categorical nova to derive from smaller closely interacting units, too often I've used it as a mysterious answer to mysterious questions (http://lesswrong.com/lw/iu/mysterious_answers_to_mysterious_questions/).

So, I revoke my use of "emergence" earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on July 13, 2010, 03:28:19 pm
After reading some of the Less Wrong sequences, I'm not so sure about using "Emergence" anymore. It's starting to feel more like invoking magic, and it doesn't actually /explain/ anything, just gives a semantic stopsign (http://lesswrong.com/lw/it/semantic_stopsigns/).

While I like using emergence to describe the universal tendency for categorical nova to derive from smaller closely interacting units, too often I've used it as a mysterious answer to mysterious questions (http://lesswrong.com/lw/iu/mysterious_answers_to_mysterious_questions/).

So, I revoke my use of "emergence" earlier in this thread.

But I liked the idea of emergence! It wasn't strictly mystery to me, and it provided a useful context in which to think of different parts of the Machine.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Requia ☣ on July 14, 2010, 09:23:20 am
I like emergence as well, though I wonder if it might be triggering different meanings for me than for others, as I've heard the idea it acts as invoking magic from other places recently, so I have to agree to drop it as well, and I'll see if I can't find a better way to explain what I mean.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: President Television on July 15, 2010, 05:37:38 am
back when I had cable, I became very keenly aware of the subliminal ads on comedy central.

You can catch it right before they come back from a commercial break, they'll flash one frame of an ad for like 1/3rd of a second. Most people don't even notice it.
:aaa: I always figured that was a glitch or something.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Jasper on July 15, 2010, 06:59:39 am
Liking a theory doesn't make it more accurate, unfortunately. :(
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LuciferX on July 15, 2010, 07:34:01 am
Liking a theory doesn't make it more accurate, unfortunately. :(
True, but the fact that the word "emergence" triggers a sense of meaning in people signals me that the semaphore is not spent.  Perhaps the persistence of our vision has temporarily impressed on our ocular field a static shadow of the emergence that was before.  This would deny the nature of emergence as constantly changing, making it a dead metaphor...

To clarify, I feel the machine that is emergence has an accommodating nature that is quasi organic, together with seemingly intricate mechanisms of locks and releases reminiscent of machines that interface with us.  I'm working on understanding the surplus labour thing...
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on July 15, 2010, 12:35:32 pm
Both left-libertarians and Marxists have devoted some thinking to that topic, I believe.  You may want to check their writings.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LuciferX on July 17, 2010, 09:14:46 am
Not worth bothering unless interested in how Marx twisted Hegel to create paradigm shift, and how it is possibly reflected in evolutionary structure of emergence...  I keep Das Capital around but otherwise try and think for myself ;-)

I tried to fish-out essay by friend on subject but storage made the ink bleed into incomprehensibility...

(and now emergence is so passe he's gone back to the coelacanth   :argh!:
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on July 17, 2010, 10:54:24 am
Oh I dunno, I think as a sociologist/historian, Marx has a lot of interesting ideas...but to be honest I've read more Marxists than I've read Marx, and some of the former can be quite creative in their interpretations and methods.

Anyway, onto some more purposeful social engineering.  Most of these are taken from the excellent Skilluminati Research website, which I'm sure many of you are aware of.  This is because I'm having a lazy day, and refuse to do any original research until after lunch, at the very least.

Quote
"Unlike the analyst, who deals only with simple forms of camouflage, the spy operates in a veritable hall of mirrors, in which several levels of intrigue and dissimulation interact. And unlike the intelligence analyst, whose performance can be evaluated by his failure or success in making patterns rise to the surface, the activities of spies and counterspies take place in such deep secrecy that making a rational evaluation of their performance is often impossible. This has tended to create an aura of "mysticism" around espionage agencies, giving spies the feeling of belonging to a secret caste of initiated individuals who have exclusive access to "esoteric" knowledge. Their successes and failures can only be judged by people having access to this inner sanctum."

"For this reason the photoanalysts at the CIA and the cryptologists at the NSA have to operate in a very different environment than their colleagues in think tanks like the RAND Corporation. RAND was originally created in 1946 as a mathematicians' think tank, designed to apply the tools of Operations Research and game theory to the problems of warfare, and it has remained pretty much a technocrat's stronghold ever since. Analysts at the CIA/NSA, on the other hand, must work together with clandestine operators, in charge of sabotage, assassination and psychological warfare, and with spy managers, who put together and maintain networks of infiltrators and informers. The atmosphere of excessive secrecy created by these two characters affects in many ways the performance of the analytical component of the intelligence agency. This is not to say that the work of the analyst is unrelated to the world of secrecy and security measures. Rather, it is as if there were two kinds of secrecy, one with a valid military function and another that has a negative effect on the internal workings of the war machine."

"Almost without exception secret service organizations have thrived in times of turbulence and, conversely, have seen their power vanish as turmoil slows. For this reason they survive by inciting social turbulence, spreading rumors and inventing imaginary enemies, fifth columns, and bomber and missile gaps. They need to keep society in constant alert, in a generalized state of fear and paranoia, in order to sustain themselves. This has led to the development of a gigantic "espionage industry," whose entire existence is based on a bluff few governments dare to call:

The agencies justify their peacetime existence by promising to provide timely warning of a threat to national security.... Over the years intelligence agencies have brainwashed successive governments into accepting three propositions that ensure their survival and expansion. The first is that in the secret world it may be impossible to distinguish success from failure. A timely warning of attack allows the intended victim to prepare. This causes the aggressor to change its mind; the warning then appears to have been wrong. The second proposition is that failure can be due to incorrect analysis of the agency's accurate information.... The third proposition is that the agency could have offered timely warning had it not been starved of funds. In combination, these three propositions can be used to thwart any rational analysis of an intelligence agency's performance, and allow any failure to be turned into a justification for further funding and expansion."
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on July 17, 2010, 11:10:37 am
From Tragedy and Hope by Bill Clinton's former professor, Carroll Quigley:

Quote
Behind this unfortunate situation lies another, more profound, relationship, which influences matters much broader than Far Eastern policy. It involves the organization of tax-exempt fortunes of international financiers into foundations to be used for educational, scientific, and other public purposes. Sixty or more years ago, public life in the East was dominated by the influence of Wall Street referring to international financial capitalism deeply involved in the gold standard, foreign exchange fluctuations, floating of fixed-interest securities and shares for stock-exchange markets.

This group, which in the United States, was completely dominated by J.P. Morgan and Company from the 1880s to the 1930s was cosmopolitan, Anglophile, internationalist, Ivy League, eastern seaboard, high Episcopalian and European-culture conscious. Their connection with the Ivy League colleges rested on the fact that large endowments of these institutions required constant consultation with the financiers of Wall Street and was reflected in the fact that these endowments were largely in bonds rather than in real estate or common stocks.

As a consequence of these influences, J.P. Morgan and his associates were the most significant figures in policy making at Harvard, Columbia and Yale while the Whitneys and Prudential Insurance Company dominated Princeton. The chief officials of these universities were beholden to these financial powers and usually owed their jobs to them.

The significant influence of Wall Street (meaning Morgan) both in the Ivy League and in Washington explains the constant interchange between the Ivy League and the Federal Government, and interchange which undoubtedly aroused a good deal of resentment in less-favored circles who were more than satiated with the accents, tweeds, and High Episcopal Anglophilia of these peoples. Poor Dean Acheson, in spite of (or perhaps because of) his remarkable qualities of intellect and character, took the full brunt of this resentment from McCarthy and his allies. The same feeling did no good to pseudo-Ivy League figures like Alger Hiss.

In spite of the great influence of this Wall Street alignment, an influence great enough to merit the name of the "American Establishment," this group could not control the Federal Government and, in consequence, had to adjust to a good many government actions thoroughly distasteful to the group. The chief of these were in taxation law, beginning with the graduated income tax in 1913, but culminating above all else with the inheritance tax.

And

Quote
More than fifty years ago, the Morgan firm decided to infiltrate the Left-wing political movements of the United States. This was relatively easy to do since these groups were starved for funds and eager for a voice to reach the people. Wall Street supplied both. The purpose was not to destroy, dominate or take over but was really three-fold:

1) to keep informed about the Left-wing or liberal groups;

2) to provide them with a mouthpiece so they could blow off steam;

3) to have a final "veto" on their actions if they ever went radical. There was nothing really new about this decision, since other financiers had talked about it and even attempted it earlier.

The best example of the alliance of Wall Street and Left-wing publication was "The New Republic" a magazine founded in 1914 by Willard Straight using Payne Whitney money. The original purpose for establishing the paper was to provide an outlet for the progressive Left and to guide it in an Anglophile direction.

And

Quote
The Eighty-third Congress set up in 1953 a Special Reece Committee to investigate Tax-Exempt Foundations. It soon became clear that people of immense wealth would be unhappy if the investigation went too far and that the most respected newspapers in the country, closely allied with these men of wealth, would not get excited enough about any revelations to make the publicity worthwhile.

An interesting report showing the Left-wing associations of interlocking nexus of tax-exempt foundations was issued in 1954 rather quietly.. Four years later, the Reece Committee's general counsel, Rene A Wormser, wrote a shocked, but not shocking, book on the subject called "Foundations: Their Power and Influence."

Jerome Green is a symbol of much more than the Wall Street influence in the IPR. He is also a symbol of the relationship between the financial circles of London and those of the eastern U.S. which reflects one of the most powerful influences in 20th century American and world history. The two ends of this English-speaking axis have sometimes been called, perhaps facetiously, the English and American Establishments. There is, however, a considerable degree of truth behind the joke, a truth which reflects a very real power structure.

It is this power structure which the Radical Right in the U.S. has been attacking for years in the belief they are attacking the Communists. These misdirected attacks did much to confuse the American people in 1948-1955. By 1953 most of these attacks had run their course. The American people, thoroughly bewildered at the widespread charges of twenty years of treason and subversion, had rejected the Democrats and put into the White House a war hero, Eisenhower. At the time, two events, one public and one secret, were still in process. The public one was the Korean War; the secret one was the race for the thermonuclear bomb.

Finally

Quote
The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent private meetings and conferences.

This man was a highly respected professor of history at Georgetown University, by the way.  I have copies of the book for those interested.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on July 17, 2010, 11:33:52 am
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Proactive_Preemptive_Operations_Group

Quote
One way to invigorate U.S. intelligence would be to "Develop an entirely new capability to proactively, preemptively evoke responses from adversary/terrorist groups," according to the DSB. Such an approach would "improve [intelligence] information collection by stimulating reactions" from the target [5] ... which is to say, provoke the terrorists into action.

Quote
DEFENSE "COVERT OPS" ROLE -- A 78-page briefing document recently obtained by the media titled "Summer Study on Special Operations and Joint Forces in Support of Countering Terrorism" and produced by a 10-member panel of military experts [only AFIO member Admiral William O. Studeman, former DIRNSA, former Deputy DCI and former Acting DCI was identified as a member] under the auspices of the Defense Science Board advocates a greatly expanded and more assertive role for covert military actions, intelligence collection and operations to "stimulate reactions" among terrorists and states possessing weapons of mass destruction. In discussing the report, not yet forwarded to the President, the DSB chairman, William Schneider, Jr., rejected concerns that the proposal would usurp CIA's covert operations role, erode congressional oversight, or change long-standing policies such as prohibition of assassinations. Expansion of existing covert units and the addition of new covert units in all of the Services as well as the new expenditure of billions of dollars was called for. The panel recommended a number of new or morphed organizations in the design to bring together CIA and military covert action, information warfare, psychological warfare, intelligence, cover and deception.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LuciferX on July 18, 2010, 11:39:21 am
Kain: the generosity of your time is very much appreciated, it led me to the book "mIRE in the fINDS of men" an interesting read on previous history with some relevant paradoxes re: infiltration and the hall of mirrors.  Last chapter on Lenin is cool.

000: the fact that option a) was not considered, is provocative, and leads to b,c,&d, I gather.

(ostentation quote) If its the pattern your looking for:  anticipation, repetition, recognition ;-)

Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Captain Utopia on July 19, 2010, 01:57:17 pm
Quote
More than fifty years ago, the Morgan firm decided to infiltrate the Left-wing political movements of the United States. This was relatively easy to do since these groups were starved for funds and eager for a voice to reach the people. Wall Street supplied both. The purpose was not to destroy, dominate or take over but was really three-fold:

1) to keep informed about the Left-wing or liberal groups;

2) to provide them with a mouthpiece so they could blow off steam;

3) to have a final "veto" on their actions if they ever went radical. There was nothing really new about this decision, since other financiers had talked about it and even attempted it earlier.

The best example of the alliance of Wall Street and Left-wing publication was "The New Republic" a magazine founded in 1914 by Willard Straight using Payne Whitney money. The original purpose for establishing the paper was to provide an outlet for the progressive Left and to guide it in an Anglophile direction.


Reminds me of The Daily Show.  I don't think it's likely, and I've never heard of such an instance, that someone on the right has been influenced by any of its content.  I mean, yes, each snappy montage showing lazy establishment hypocrisy feels like a minor victory - it's a warm and comforting place to be.  But if no-one outside its target audience is affected by it, and if the effect is to turn liberal outrage into laughter, then whose goals is it contributing to?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LuciferX on July 20, 2010, 07:58:38 am
<cmd: file -c -M magic> is this why the quick anachronous fox jumped over the fence?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Triple Zero on July 25, 2010, 01:12:18 pm
Kain: the generosity of your time is very much appreciated

IAWTC, interesting reads. Thanks, Cain.

Quote
000: the fact that option a) was not considered, is provocative, and leads to b,c,&d, I gather.

uhh, I looked back five pages and I can't find what you are replying to? If it matters, please to quote, otherwise, never mind it :-P

<cmd: file -c -M magic> is this why the quick anachronous fox jumped over the fence?

what? you lost me and I can't be arsed to man file.

Reminds me of The Daily Show.  I don't think it's likely, and I've never heard of such an instance, that someone on the right has been influenced by any of its content.  I mean, yes, each snappy montage showing lazy establishment hypocrisy feels like a minor victory - it's a warm and comforting place to be.  But if no-one outside its target audience is affected by it, and if the effect is to turn liberal outrage into laughter, then whose goals is it contributing to?

Hm, interesting thought.

I don't watch the Daily Show that often (just when it's linked here). It's great comedy, but your comment made me wonder, do/did they ever break something really surprising? Or do they comedy-wrap stuff that anybody could grep from the (better) news outlets?

On the other hand, there was this study that the Daily Show was a better source for quality news than most actual news programs, IIRC? Which means, even if they just comedy-wrap and regurgitate things people could find via the (better/indie/alt) news sources, they are providing a good service, informing the people that don't make the effort? Even if it's preaching to the choir?

Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Captain Utopia on July 25, 2010, 02:30:39 pm
I don't watch the Daily Show that often (just when it's linked here). It's great comedy, but your comment made me wonder, do/did they ever break something really surprising? Or do they comedy-wrap stuff that anybody could grep from the (better) news outlets?

I think they have, although no ready example springs to mind.  A weak example would be the hypocrisy montage, there's no-one better at finding examples of some pol contradicting themselves.  Or they'll highlight an angle which the mainstream media has ignored up until that point, which subsequently gets more attention.  If you're asking whether they add value to the quality of the news, then yes - I'd say they do.


On the other hand, there was this study that the Daily Show was a better source for quality news than most actual news programs, IIRC? Which means, even if they just comedy-wrap and regurgitate things people could find via the (better/indie/alt) news sources, they are providing a good service, informing the people that don't make the effort? Even if it's preaching to the choir?

The liberal choir is already weighted heavily on the theory side of the theory vs. action scales.  Passive and Informed, keeps losing ground to Angry and Uninformed.  I have no idea what the answer is.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on July 25, 2010, 05:48:30 pm
Angry and Informed.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Captain Utopia on July 25, 2010, 08:36:54 pm
(http://i1008.photobucket.com/albums/af205/spiff_bucket/crankey.png)?

Anger trumps rationality though - how do you avoid that?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on July 25, 2010, 08:42:41 pm
It's like stress. There's a sweet spot where it positively effects your performance at maximum levels.

Any more stress and it has a negative impact. Any less and you're running below optimum.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LuciferX on July 26, 2010, 11:47:48 am
the machine is a system that pretends to help you while it fucks you.
why?  because people are not things, or "parts" of the whole.
we have seen ourselves in many ways, but as mechanical parts is not sufficient.
Sure, it may be efficient in streamlining the workflow for a project.
But what is the project?
Why is the project?
To do something without having asked these questions is irresponsible, and
we can leave it at that.

what is important: how is it so?

what does it mean for something to be important?
How can something be important?
Is there a first among equals?
Yes.
(DY:  hint, its not a thing...)
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Captain Utopia on July 26, 2010, 02:02:00 pm
what is important: how is it so?

what does it mean for something to be important?
How can something be important?
Is there a first among equals?
Yes.
(DY:  hint, its not a thing...)

PD.com is not your personal classroom and I am not your student, gazing up at you with awe and admiration as you waffle on enigmatically, barely able to contain my excitement to start on the homework you have set today - to find meaning in your zen-wannabe stream-of-consciousness not-saying-anything question style of communication.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Jasper on July 26, 2010, 10:05:23 pm
But Captain, can you really say there is a right?

*pause to look thoughtful*

For that matter, is there a left?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LuciferX on July 27, 2010, 06:40:54 am
did you find you're level yet?
(going forward I always look back,
If time were a sideral cone  :lulz:
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Jasper on July 27, 2010, 06:44:24 am
On another tangent, I had a thought. 

The machine.  It's a mechanics metaphor, and I notice that all mechanics boil down to three components.   Every machine has a goes inna, a goes outta, and the thing inna middle.  How does this look with regard to The Machine?

It looks like the goes inna is humans, and the goes outta is...what we have lying around in the noosphere.  What's the thing inna middle?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LuciferX on July 27, 2010, 06:57:03 am
the arrow of time  :argh!: :lulz:
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LuciferX on July 27, 2010, 07:00:25 am
yes it has mechanics of time wrapping-up...
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Jasper on July 27, 2010, 07:05:59 am
Anybody?  Nobody?  Mm, oh well.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Nast on July 27, 2010, 07:33:41 am
Well, I'm just a silly and simple boy who rarely comments in these types of threads, but I'd say that the middle is sort of like...environmental pressures that bend you into a convenient shape that fits into the hole. A social obligation to be or want something because of where you are in the social parfait.

Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Doktor Howl on July 27, 2010, 03:45:16 pm
This is The Machine:  http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=25885.0

It wasn't supposed to be like this.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LuciferX on July 28, 2010, 09:32:49 am

"You can't really fix it, or hit the "reset button", as the Ron Paul crowd would like to do, because you can't change the past, and you can't make history go away without creating a worse monster than you started with."

okay, so the system is dynamic, not only does it change, it changes change.  history will always be there, how are we going to make it count?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: MMIX on July 28, 2010, 04:04:17 pm
On another tangent, I had a thought. 

The machine.  It's a mechanics metaphor, and I notice that all mechanics boil down to three components.   Every machine has a goes inna, a goes outta, and the thing inna middle.  How does this look with regard to The Machine?

It looks like the goes inna is humans, and the goes outta is...what we have lying around in the noosphere.  What's the thing inna middle?

(http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a289/goblinhill/0519-all-about-mechanics-wh.jpg)


So, if you put a person in this t-shirt it can bend and dance and jump up and down . . .

The thing in the middle in your example is currently a black box . . . a concept I picked up in uni while taking a course on systems behaviour. Yep, even systems behaviourists understand that emergent properties are sometimes needed as a temporary [long/short/whatever] heuristic when addressing the behaviour of complex systems . . .
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Captain Utopia on July 28, 2010, 05:05:17 pm

Are you saying that what is in the middle is indescribable?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: MMIX on July 28, 2010, 10:59:04 pm
Well not in the t-shirt case of course . . . 

but Sigmatic was using the model Input/s > Process > Output/s

and all I was observing, kind of tongue in cheek, is that it is not always necessary to be able to fully explain/describe the Process to get a reasonable understanding of how that particular model works. 
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Jasper on July 28, 2010, 11:32:49 pm
Really I was just interested in trying to see deep the metaphor went. 
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on July 30, 2010, 11:06:37 pm
http://www.hbs.edu/bhr/archives/bookreviews/77/2003springcoxrichardson.pdf

Quote
“Setting out to uncover the roots of modern liberalism, Cohen believes she found them in the thought of late-nineteenth-century economists and social scientists. Liberal thinkers of the first postwar generation, like E. L. Godkin and George William Curtis, faced squarely the implications of the postwar expansion of democracy to include workers and people of color. Quickly, they began to fear that the poor would threaten private property and individual liberty, key tenets of liberalism, by demanding cooperative action and redistribution of wealth. In response, Cohen argues, liberal reformers denigrated political self-rule and elevated the idea of the “economic man” who strove to succeed in the marketplace; they clung to the idea of laissez- faire government; and they abandoned equal citizenship and embraced racism. Their plan was to “limit and constrain the power of propertyless majorities in a polity that had recently erected universal male suffrage as its cardinal political ideal” (p. 220).
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Requia ☣ on July 30, 2010, 11:33:00 pm
Thinking about the 'emergent' talk a bit more, I've decided the machine is not actually emergent in nature, an emergent system produces complex results from a simpler set of rules, but the rules that combine to make up the machine are both numerous and complicated, perhaps more complicated than the machine itself.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on July 30, 2010, 11:49:49 pm
Much social policy does seem to come down to "divide and conquer", in one way or another.  Racism and nationalism great for breaking attempts at "working class solidarity", for example.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Requia ☣ on July 31, 2010, 12:51:55 am
Exactly, a host of different rules (whether you want to argue coincidence or conspiracy), leading to much the same effect.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LuciferX on August 01, 2010, 10:02:10 am
How nothing is the difference.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Ob_Portu on August 05, 2010, 02:45:29 pm
The Machine is your Mother.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LuciferX on August 08, 2010, 05:42:35 pm
Mummy is not about politics
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Ob_Portu on August 08, 2010, 10:36:27 pm
Mummy is the begining of all politics.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on August 08, 2010, 11:16:10 pm
You two.  The memebomb thread is over here (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=11054.0).
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on August 15, 2010, 12:23:39 pm
http://www.truth-out.org/the-hidden-tragedy-cias-experiments-children62208

Quote
Shortly after deciding to initiate her own LSD experiments on children, Bender attended a conference sponsored by a CIA front group, the Josiah Macy Foundation. The conference focused on LSD research and featured Dr. Harold A. Abramson as a presenter. In 1960, Abramson conducted his own LSD experiments on a group of six children ranging in age from five to 14 years of age.

A few short months after the Macy Foundation conference, Dr. Bender was notified that her planned LSD experiments would be partially and surreptitiously funded by the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology (SIHE), another CIA front group then located in Forest Hills, New York. The Society, headed by James L. Monroe, a former US Air Force officer who had worked on top-secret psychological warfare and propaganda projects, oversaw about 55 top-secret experiments underwritten by the CIA. These projects involved LSD, ESP, black magic, astrology, psychological warfare, media manipulation, and other subjects.

Apparently, Bender’s work with children and LSD raised some concerns at the CIA’s Technical Services Division (TSD). A 1961 TSD memo written to Monroe questioned the “operational benefits of Dr. Bender’s work as related to children and LSD,” and requested to be kept “closely appraised of the possible links between Dr. Bender’s project and those being conducted under separate MK/ULTRA funding at designated prisons in New York and elsewhere.”
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Kai on August 15, 2010, 02:13:16 pm
Jesus christ.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Ruby on August 15, 2010, 02:30:53 pm
http://www.truth-out.org/the-hidden-tragedy-cias-experiments-children62208

Quote
Shortly after deciding to initiate her own LSD experiments on children, Bender attended a conference sponsored by a CIA front group, the Josiah Macy Foundation. The conference focused on LSD research and featured Dr. Harold A. Abramson as a presenter. In 1960, Abramson conducted his own LSD experiments on a group of six children ranging in age from five to 14 years of age.

A few short months after the Macy Foundation conference, Dr. Bender was notified that her planned LSD experiments would be partially and surreptitiously funded by the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology (SIHE), another CIA front group then located in Forest Hills, New York. The Society, headed by James L. Monroe, a former US Air Force officer who had worked on top-secret psychological warfare and propaganda projects, oversaw about 55 top-secret experiments underwritten by the CIA. These projects involved LSD, ESP, black magic, astrology, psychological warfare, media manipulation, and other subjects.

Apparently, Bender’s work with children and LSD raised some concerns at the CIA’s Technical Services Division (TSD). A 1961 TSD memo written to Monroe questioned the “operational benefits of Dr. Bender’s work as related to children and LSD,” and requested to be kept “closely appraised of the possible links between Dr. Bender’s project and those being conducted under separate MK/ULTRA funding at designated prisons in New York and elsewhere.”

It goes without saying that those were during the 'baby-booming' years. Experimentation between 1950-1979 leaves more than a little opening for the question of numbers being effected that are not mentionable.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cosine 5 on August 16, 2010, 01:14:09 am
It goes without saying that those were during the 'baby-booming' years. Experimentation between 1950-1979 leaves more than a little opening for the question of numbers being effected that are not mentionable.

I'm confused about what you're trying to say in that second sentence.
I think the time period hardly matters in this case, except it's rather alarming how close it is to the present.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: BadBeast on August 16, 2010, 04:09:47 am
http://www.truth-out.org/the-hidden-tragedy-cias-experiments-children62208

Quote
Shortly after deciding to initiate her own LSD experiments on children, Bender attended a conference sponsored by a CIA front group, the Josiah Macy Foundation. The conference focused on LSD research and featured Dr. Harold A. Abramson as a presenter. In 1960, Abramson conducted his own LSD experiments on a group of six children ranging in age from five to 14 years of age.

A few short months after the Macy Foundation conference, Dr. Bender was notified that her planned LSD experiments would be partially and surreptitiously funded by the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology (SIHE), another CIA front group then located in Forest Hills, New York. The Society, headed by James L. Monroe, a former US Air Force officer who had worked on top-secret psychological warfare and propaganda projects, oversaw about 55 top-secret experiments underwritten by the CIA. These projects involved LSD, ESP, black magic, astrology, psychological warfare, media manipulation, and other subjects.

Apparently, Bender’s work with children and LSD raised some concerns at the CIA’s Technical Services Division (TSD). A 1961 TSD memo written to Monroe questioned the “operational benefits of Dr. Bender’s work as related to children and LSD,” and requested to be kept “closely appraised of the possible links between Dr. Bender’s project and those being conducted under separate MK/ULTRA funding at designated prisons in New York and elsewhere.”
What a fucking horrible way to research the effects of Acid. I think that Agencies such as the CIA, recognised the actual power of LSD on the mind, was so phenominal, that they had to be "Expert" in it's application. The reason the experiments went on for so many years, is that you cannot get predictable or usable results from giving people big doses of Acid. This didn't stop them from trying different combinations of techniques for MKULTRA. All they really learned was that Acid can fuck with your head in ways that no-one can understand. Unless they have experienced it.  Watching subjects who have been given the Drug, infers no knowledge or subjective experience to the experimentors. All they see is the outward effects of the altered psyche. But they were too afraid to experiment on themselves by this stage, because they had built themselves a place from which to watch madness. They didn't want what happened to their subjects to happen to them.
So I don't think they discovered anything of worth at all in this hideously perverted series of "How to break a mind into twelvety mizillion bits"

To try and control it, to use it as a tool for psycho :fnord: ist programming, is futile, unless you are within the subject's parameters of reality. So if you want to reprogram someone effectively, you have to get down in the ditch with them yourself, and dig. And share any risk the subject has to take too. It could almost be a new Olympic Sport. Acid mind-wrestling. Trip-Fu. Chi Boxing.  :fap:  :horrormirth:
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Telarus on August 16, 2010, 06:20:46 am
Fuck dude, I'd totally pay to watch that in 3d.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Ruby on August 16, 2010, 11:15:44 am
Cosine5: You are right as to the fact that it is disturbing to be so near to our present time, however, it also leaves to question what is it 'they' have moved on to.

1950-1979 were specifically the baby-booming years. Why do you think those years were called that? Also, primarily it was the middle-class on to which the common reference was made. The lower class and the impoverished were not technically observed as the same, nor were 'they' as valued by mainstream society without some kind of agenda.

To further what else I was aiming toward is this: How many equality issues arose at that time? How many 'supposed' governmental conspiracy theories were 'exposed'? There are so many things that came about, not just during that specific time, but, within the last, what? 120-130 years that makes one wonder more about the 'tale ;D that wagged the dog'.

*Getting out my history books and taking a second look at the real changes without the political distractions.*

BadBeast: A really great point!
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: BadBeast on August 16, 2010, 11:45:25 am


 There are so many things that came about, not just during that specific time, but, within the last, what? 120-130 years that makes one wonder more about the 'tale ;D that wagged the dog'.

*Getting out my history books and taking a second look at the real changes without the political distractions.*

BadBeast: A really great point!

If you think of it in those terms, 120 ish years ago, we had only ever got off the ground in Hot Air Balloons. 80 years later, and Uncle Sam's on Mars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGyeULvpQdY&p=4AE700175D382309&playnext=1&index=23

And there are/were a generation of people who saw more Technological advances in their lifetime, than the rest of it all put together. Even 30 years ago, if you tried to describe to them the level of Technology everyone now carries in their pockets, they would have burnt you for Witchcraft!
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Ruby on August 16, 2010, 01:21:08 pm
Amazing, isn't it!?

And, too, I have come to seriously doubt if anyone even reads their history books. I also wonder, if they have, why is there such a confusion about 'witchcrafting'. In my history book, an I will happily quote if it be necessary, but it explains a 'basic' belief and history of what witchcraft was/is, and even gives clues as to what it very well 'could' become.

Sticking to the basics, of course, as too few woul want to o their own research into the multiple theories, symbolism, so on, and so forth.

Some 'burns' could be pleasureable, though, I suppose. (Hell's Fire in New York says so, that is.)
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: BadBeast on August 16, 2010, 01:44:47 pm
We didn't go in for the Witch burning in Britain to the same extent as they did on the Continent.
For a start, the Spanish Inquisition never set foot here. And for another thing, we knew a good thing when we saw it. It's all very well getting carried away with the Hue & Cry on a Wednesday,
but if you fell over and split your head on Thursday, you're not going to be getting it stitched up anytime soon by the Woman you helped strap into the Ducking Stool.
We did probably burn a few useless old peasant women, but then who didn't back then when the winter cold was seeping into their bones. Nothing like a good bonfire to chase the chill away, and engender good community relations. We even gave them every chance to deny any wrongdoing, if they were either too senile, or too thick to take it, then it's probably for the best, don't you think?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Ruby on August 16, 2010, 01:53:37 pm
We didn't go in for the Witch burning in Britain to the same extent as they did on the Continent.
For a start, the Spanish Inquisition never set foot here. And for another thing, we knew a good thing when we saw it. It's all very well getting carried away with the Hue & Cry on a Wednesday,
but if you fell over and split your head on Thursday, you're not going to be getting it stitched up anytime soon by the Woman you helped strap into the Ducking Stool.
We did probably burn a few useless old peasant women, but then who didn't back then when the winter cold was seeping into their bones. Nothing like a good bonfire to chase the chill away, and engender good community relations. We even gave them every chance to deny any wrongdoing, if they were either too senile, or too thick to take it, then it's probably for the best, don't you think?

It isn't what I think, so much, haha, it's what I've come to know, and quite well. 'They' should have had worthy men of strength to co-habitate with, protecting them from political injustices as so mentioned. Or a vicious dog. Or a butch woman with a collection of knives. Or, hells bells, all the above.  :lulz:
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: BadBeast on August 16, 2010, 02:15:41 pm
I'm sure lots of them did. Some of the ones I know still do. One friend of mine breeds prize English Bull Terriers. And has 2 strapping great sons. I've lived with her, and though I love her dearly, she can be very hard work. But that's women in general really.
Can't live with 'em, can't just leave them in the ditch where you found them.  :ECH:
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Ruby on August 16, 2010, 02:30:56 pm
I'm sure lots of them did. Some of the ones I know still do. One friend of mine breeds prize English Bull Terriers. And has 2 strapping great sons. I've lived with her, and though I love her dearly, she can be very hard work. But that's women in general really.
Can't live with 'em, can't just leave them in the ditch where you found them.  :ECH:

Hahaha, too cute, and I'm too nice to say where some of us find our men.  :evil:
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LMNO on August 18, 2010, 03:35:02 pm
http://www.truth-out.org/the-hidden-tragedy-cias-experiments-children62208

Quote
Shortly after deciding to initiate her own LSD experiments on children, Bender attended a conference sponsored by a CIA front group, the Josiah Macy Foundation. The conference focused on LSD research and featured Dr. Harold A. Abramson as a presenter. In 1960, Abramson conducted his own LSD experiments on a group of six children ranging in age from five to 14 years of age.

A few short months after the Macy Foundation conference, Dr. Bender was notified that her planned LSD experiments would be partially and surreptitiously funded by the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology (SIHE), another CIA front group then located in Forest Hills, New York. The Society, headed by James L. Monroe, a former US Air Force officer who had worked on top-secret psychological warfare and propaganda projects, oversaw about 55 top-secret experiments underwritten by the CIA. These projects involved LSD, ESP, black magic, astrology, psychological warfare, media manipulation, and other subjects.

Apparently, Bender’s work with children and LSD raised some concerns at the CIA’s Technical Services Division (TSD). A 1961 TSD memo written to Monroe questioned the “operational benefits of Dr. Bender’s work as related to children and LSD,” and requested to be kept “closely appraised of the possible links between Dr. Bender’s project and those being conducted under separate MK/ULTRA funding at designated prisons in New York and elsewhere.”

I'd be very curious to read those reports as to what their "conclusions" were.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on August 18, 2010, 03:43:27 pm
"Getting kids high causes them to listen to shitty music and believe they are in telepathic communication with a Universal consciousness that is one with everything.  And fall over a lot."
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on August 18, 2010, 03:48:59 pm
More importantly, you can watch The Century of the Self, a documentary about psychoanalysis, propaganda and advertising by British film maker Adam Curtis, on Youtube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dA89CBBOC0 is the start, I'm sure you can all follow the links from there on in for the rest.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: BadBeast on August 18, 2010, 04:04:07 pm
http://www.truth-out.org/the-hidden-tragedy-cias-experiments-children62208

Quote
Shortly after deciding to initiate her own LSD experiments on children, Bender attended a conference sponsored by a CIA front group, the Josiah Macy Foundation. The conference focused on LSD research and featured Dr. Harold A. Abramson as a presenter. In 1960, Abramson conducted his own LSD experiments on a group of six children ranging in age from five to 14 years of age.

A few short months after the Macy Foundation conference, Dr. Bender was notified that her planned LSD experiments would be partially and surreptitiously funded by the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology (SIHE), another CIA front group then located in Forest Hills, New York. The Society, headed by James L. Monroe, a former US Air Force officer who had worked on top-secret psychological warfare and propaganda projects, oversaw about 55 top-secret experiments underwritten by the CIA. These projects involved LSD, ESP, black magic, astrology, psychological warfare, media manipulation, and other subjects.

Apparently, Bender’s work with children and LSD raised some concerns at the CIA’s Technical Services Division (TSD). A 1961 TSD memo written to Monroe questioned the “operational benefits of Dr. Bender’s work as related to children and LSD,” and requested to be kept “closely appraised of the possible links between Dr. Bender’s project and those being conducted under separate MK/ULTRA funding at designated prisons in New York and elsewhere.”

I'd be very curious to read those reports as to what their "conclusions" were.
I bet they were something along the lines of "Inconclusive. Give us another 20 years funding and I'm sure we can come up with something"  "We need a lot more data over a longer test period".
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on September 01, 2010, 10:09:57 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drapetomania

Quote
Drapetomania was a supposed mental illness described by American physician Samuel A. Cartwright in 1851 that caused black slaves to flee captivity. Today, drapetomania is considered an example of pseudoscience, and part of the edifice of scientific racism. The term derives from the Greek δραπετης (drapetes, "a runaway [slave]") + μανια (mania, "madness, frenzy").

Cartwright described the disorder — which, he said, was "unknown to our medical authorities, although its diagnostic symptom, the absconding from service, is well known to our planters and overseers" — in a paper delivered before the Medical Association of Louisiana that was widely reprinted.

He stated that the malady was a consequence of masters who "made themselves too familiar with [slaves], treating them as equals."

"If any one or more of them, at any time, are inclined to raise their heads to a level with their master or overseer, humanity and their own good requires that they should be punished until they fall into that submissive state which was intended for them to occupy. They have only to be kept in that state, and treated like children to prevent and cure them from running away."

In Diseases and Pecularities of the Negro Race, Cartwright writes that the Bible calls for a slave to be submissive to his master, and by doing so, the slave will have no desire to run away.

In addition to identifying drapetomania, Cartwright prescribed a remedy. His feeling was that with "proper medical advice, strictly followed, this troublesome practice that many Negroes have of running away can be almost entirely prevented." In the case of slaves "sulky and dissatisfied without cause" — a warning sign of imminent flight — Cartwright prescribed "whipping the devil out of them" as a "preventative measure."
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on September 01, 2010, 10:25:59 am
While on the topic of slavery:

Quote from: The Constitution
Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

IOW, slavery is literally Joe Biden still legal in the USA, so long as you use convicts to do the work.  

Now I always assumed that increased incarceration had been a result of private prisons, who had then come onto the idea of using prisoners as slave labour after the fact - but when you look at this, it seems like the intent for something like this was always inscribed into the system.

Combine this with the 19th century "convict lease" system, which was almost entirely made up of black prisoners in jail for questionable crimes and, well....
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on September 01, 2010, 10:47:57 am
Hey, wanna hear something that'll make you puke your breakfasts?

From Judith Levine's Harmful to Minors, page 37

Quote
Attorney Lawrence Stanley, who published in the Benjamin A. Cardozo Law Review what is widely considered the most thorough research of child pornography in the 1980s, concluded that the pornographers were almost exclusively cops. In 1990 at a southern California police seminar, the LAPD's R. P. "Toby" Tyler proudly announced as much. The government had shellacked the competition, he said; now law enforcement agencies were the sole reproducers and distributors of child pornography. Virtually all advertising, distribution, and sales to people considered potential lawbreakers were done by the federal government, in sting operations against people who have demonstrated (through, for instance, membership in NAMBLA) what agents regard as predisposition to commit a crime. These solicitations were numerous and did not cease until the recipient took the bait. "In other words, there was no crime until the government seduced people into committing one," Stanley wrote.

If, as police claim, looking at child porn inspires molesters to go out and seduce living children, why were the feds doing the equivalent of distributing matches to arsonists? Their answer is: to stop the molesters before they strike again. Newspaper reports of arrests uniformly follow the same pattern: a federal agent poses as a minor online, hints at a desired meeting or agrees to one should the mark suggest it, and then arrests the would-be molester when he shows up. But another logical answer to the almost exclusive use of stings to arrest would-be criminals is that the government, frustrated with the paucity of the crime they claim is epidemic and around which huge networks of enforcement operations have been built, have to stir the action to justify their jobs.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on September 01, 2010, 11:45:24 am
Quote
"When we speak of disciplinary government, we are not referring simply to the juridical and political forms that organize it. We are referring primarily to the fact that in a disciplinary society, the entire society, with all its productive and reproductive articulations, is subsumed under the command of capital and the state, and that the society tends, gradually but with unstoppable continuity, to be ruled solely by criteria of capitalist production. A disciplinary society is thus a factory-society. Disciplinarity is at once a form of production and a form of government such that disciplinary production and disciplinary society tend to coincide completely . . . It is precisely when the disciplinary regime is pushed to its highest level and most complete application that it is revealed as the extreme limit of a social arrangement, a society in the process of being overcome."

— Hardt & Negri, from Empire (p. 243)
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on September 01, 2010, 11:48:44 am
MindWar must be strategic in emphasis, with tactical applications playing a reinforcing, supplementary role. In its strategic context, MindWar must reach out to friends, enemies, and neutrals alike across the globe — neither through the primitive "battlefield" leaflets and loudspeakers of PSYOP nor through the weak, imprecise, and narrow effort of psychotronics — but through the media possessed by the United States which have the capabilities to reach virtually all people on the face of the Earth. These media are, of course, the electronic media — television and radio. State of the art developments in satellite communication, video recording techniques, and laser and optical transmission of broadcasts make possible a penetration of the minds of the world such as would have been inconceivable just a few years ago . . . it can transform the world for us if we have but the courage and the integrity to guide civilization with it.

MindWar must target all participants if it is to be effective. It must not only weaken the enemy; it must strengthen the United States. It strengthens the United States by denying enemy propaganda access to our people, and by explaining and emphasizing to our people the rationale for our national interest in a specific war . . . Unlike PSYOP, MindWar has nothing to do with deception or even with "selected"— and therefore misleading — truth. Rather it states a whole truth that, if it does not now exist, will be forced into existence by the will of the United States . . . the MindWar operative must know he speaks the truth, and he must be personally committed to it. What he says is only a part of MindWar; the rest — and the test of its effectiveness — lies in the conviction he projects to his audience, in the rapport he establishes with it. . .

There are some purely natural conditions under which minds may become more or less receptive to ideas, and MindWar should take full advantage of such phenomena as atmospheric electromagnetic activity, air ionization, and extremely low frequency waves . . . (Extremely Low Frequency (ELF) waves: ELF waves (up to 100 Hz) are naturally occurring, but they can also be produced artificially (such as for the Navy’s Project Sanguine for submarine communication). ELF-waves are not normally noticed by the unaided senses, yet their resonant effect upon the human body has been connected to both physiological disorders and emotional distortion. Infrasound vibration (up to 20 Hz) can subliminally influence brain activity to align itself to delta, theta, alpha, or beta wave patterns, inclining an audience toward everything from alertness to passivity. Infrasound could be used tactically, as ELF-waves endure for great distances, and it could be usedin conjunction with media broadcasts as well.)"

— excerpted from: From PSYOP to MindWar: The Psychology of Victory, a declassified military document by Colonel Paul E. Vallely and Major Michael A. Aquino

And for those wondering, yes that is the Michael Aquino formerly of the Church of Satan and founder of the Temple of Set.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on September 01, 2010, 11:54:37 am
Probably the most-well-known agent provocateur was Thomas Tongyai, known as Tommy the Traveler. Tongyai, who was paid by both the FBI and local police, spent over two years traveling among colleges in western New York state urging students to kill police, make bombs and blow up buildings. He supplied students with radical speakers, literature and films, tried to organize an SDS chapter at Hobart College, organized SDS conferences in Rochester and urged students to participate in the Weatherman ‘Days of Rage’ in Chicago in October, 1969.

Tongyai constantly talked violence, carried a grenade in his car, showed students how to use an M-1 rifle and offered advice on how to carry out bombings. After some students at Hobart College apparently took his advice and bombed the Hobart ROTC building, and Tongyai’s cover was exposed, the local sheriff commented, ‘There’s a lot of difference between showing how to build a bomb and building one.’ As a result of disturbances connected with Tongyai’s activities on the Hobart campus, nine students and faculty faced criminal charges, but Tongyai was cleared by a local grand jury and went on to become a policeman in Pennsylvania."

— Robert J. Goldstein, from Political Repression in Modern America
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on September 01, 2010, 11:58:04 am
Dominance is a subject of enormous interest to biologists and zoologists because the percentage of dominant animals — or human beings — seems to be amazingly constant. Bernard Shaw once asked the explorer H. M. Stanley how many other men could take over leadership of the expedition if Stanley himself fell ill; Stanley replied promptly: ‘One in twenty.’ ‘Is that exact or approximate?’ asked Shaw. ‘Exact.’ And biological studies have confirmed this as a fact. For some odd reason,precisely five percent — one in twenty — of any animal group are dominant — have leadership qualities. During the Korean War, the Chinese made the interesting discovery that if they separated out the dominant five percent of American prisoners of war, and kept them in a separate compound, the remaining ninety-five percent made no attempt to escape.

— Colin Wilson, from A Criminal History of Mankind (p. 72)
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on September 01, 2010, 12:06:20 pm
The symptoms that ‘educators’ are treating with drugs may in fact have nothing to do with congenital brain defects, as they have argued, but with a number of other less mysterious factors including:

— Poor nutrition, fostered by parents either too poor, irresponsible, or dumbed down themselves to provide decent food for their kids; encouraged by a criminal food production industry more intent on moving cheap, sugar-coated, chemically-dyed, pesticide-poisoned swill than in providing healthy food. Sugar, pesticides, and chemical additives may be a key factor in causing what is termed ADD and ADHD.

— Television and other media. Kids are estimated to watch six hours per day of an electronic medium deliberately designed to foster a short attention span, with quick three-to-five second visual cuts purposely stimulating the kind of artificial agitation that induces a child to respond to commercials. Is it any wonder that these kids have a short attention span?

— Another negative aspect of the pop media is the abundance of sexual and violent images disseminated via TV, movies, hyper-violent video games, and music with violent/sexual ‘gangsta’ ghetto rap. There are many studies showing that when television is introduced to a community that violent acts double over the course of a few years. . . .

— Little parental contact with kids at all. The prevailing economy is designed so that both parents usually have to slave full time, leaving very few moments for contact with the kids. The situation ofthe single parent family is usually worse.

— Finally, there is a problem with the nature of public schooling itself, which does not challenge children to learn or to think creatively, but instead indoctrinates them to conform to their prison-like surroundings. . . .

There is no indication that the drugging of children is going to diminish in the near future. Quite the contrary."

— Jim Keith, from Mass Control: Engineering Human Consciousness (pp. 26-29)
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on September 01, 2010, 12:15:32 pm
Too many people have been spied upon by too many Government agencies and too much information has been collected. The Government has often undertaken the secret surveillance of citizens on the basis of their political beliefs, even when those beliefs posed no threat of violence or illegal acts on behalf of a hostile foreign power. The Government, operating primarily through secret informants, but also using other intrusive techniques such as wiretaps, microphone ‘bugs,’ surreptitious mail opening, and break-ins, has swept in vast amounts of information about the personal lives, views, and associations of American citizens. Investigations of groups deemed potentially dangerous — and even of groups suspected of associating with potentially dangerous organizations -- have continued for decades, despite the fact that those groups did not engage in unlawful activity. Groups and individuals have been harassed and disrupted because of their political views and their lifestyles. Investigations have been based upon vague standards whose breadth made excessive collection inevitable. Unsavory and vicious tactics have been employed — including anonymous attempts to break up marriages, disrupt meetings, ostracize persons from their professions, and provoke target groups into rivalries that might result in deaths. Intelligence agencies have served the political and personal objectives of presidents and other high officials. While the agencies often committed excesses in response to pressure from high officials in the Executive branch and Congress, they also occasionally initiated improper activities and then concealed them from officials whom they had a duty to inform.

— summation of the Church Committee report, released in April 1976
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on September 01, 2010, 12:19:03 pm
The State Security Service is not bound by firm rules and laws. In contrast to the normal police it has no intention of acting in a preventive capacity by its mere presence or to find culprits, if necessary, but rather it operates on the principle that ‘to prevent is better than to heal.’ This means: each person who might become a potential enemy is liquidated now as a preventive measure, in many cases even before he has committed himself against the occupying power. For this reason, entire sections of the population or professional groups rather than just specific individuals are systematically eliminated.

The constant distrust even of their own officials is not caused by the profession as such, but is part of the system. By involving many agencies even during small affairs, no official can deviate from the line. Each must attempt to surpass automatically his colleagues in ‘cruelty,’ ‘faithfulness to the system,’ and ‘hate toward the enemy.’ As a result everyone is watching each other. . . . If you resist political indoctrination and the enemy realizes that he is failing in his attempt to ‘convert’ you to his ideology, he will attempt to obtain obedience through fear. He will try to create this fear through terror. The enemy has developed terror techniques which are very effective. . . .

These terror measures are:

a. Surveillance of telephone and letters;
b. Establishment of an agent and informer net;
c. Arbitrary arrests; No public trials except ‘show trials’;
e. Arbitrary sentences;
f. Lengthy prison sentences out of proportion to the offense. . . .

Clubs and associations disliked by the enemy will not be prohibited at once, but will be initially subjected to various types of harassment, etc. If he immediately prohibits such organizations, he takes the risk of having membership lists destroyed. . . . When the enemy has obtained the membership lists he will destroy and outlaw the organizations."

— from Total Resistance by Major H. Von Dach (pp. 94, 96, 102)
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on September 01, 2010, 12:21:10 pm
EIGHT IDEAL CONDITIONS FOR THE FLOWERING OF AUTOCRACY

1) Eliminate personal knowledge. Make it hard for people to know about themselves, how they function, what a human being is, or how a human fits into wider, natural systems. This will make it impossible for the human to separate natural from artificial, real from unreal. You provide the answers to all questions.

2) Eliminate points of comparison. Comparisons can be found in earlier societies, older language forms and cultural artifacts, including print media. Eliminate or museumize indigenous cultures, wilderness and nonhuman life forms. Re-create internal human experience — instincts, thoughts, and spontaneous, varied feelings — so that it will not evoke the past.

3) Separate people from each other. Reduce interpersonal communication through life-styles that emphasize separateness. When people gather together, be sure it is for a prearranged experience that occupies all their attention at once. Spectator sports are excellent, so are circuses, elections, and any spectacles in which focus is outward and interpersonal exchange is subordinated to mass experience.

4) Unify experience, especially encouraging mental experience at the expense of sensory experience. Separate people’s minds from their bodies, as in sense-deprivation experiments, thus clearing the mental channel for implantation. Idealize the mind. Sensory experience cannot be eliminated totally, so it should be driven into narrow areas. An emphasis on sex as opposed to sense may be useful because it is powerful enough to pass for the whole thing and it has a placebo effect.

5) Occupy the mind. Once people are isolated in their minds, fill the brain with prearranged experience and thought. Content is less important than the fact of the mind being filled. Free-roaming thought is to be discouraged at all costs, because it is difficult to control.

6) Encourage drug use. Recognize that total repression is impossible and so expressions of revolt must be contained on the personal level. Drugs will fill in the cracks of dissatisfaction, making people unresponsive to organized expressions of resistance.

7) Centralize knowledge and information. Having isolated people from each other and minds from bodies; eliminated points of comparison; discouraged sensory experience; and invented technologies to unify and control experience, speak. At this point whatever comes from outside will enter directly into all brains at the same time with great power and believability.

8) Redefine happiness and the meaning of life in terms of new and increasingly uprooted philosophy. Once you’ve established the prior seven conditions, this one is easy. Anything makes sense in a void. All channels are open, receptive and unquestioning. Formal mind structuring is simple. Most important, avoid naturalistic philosophies, they lead to uncontrollable awareness. The least resistible philosophies are the most arbitrary ones, those that make sense only in terms of themselves.

— Jerry Mander, from Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television (pp. 97-99)
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LMNO on September 01, 2010, 04:30:29 pm
Jesus fuck.

Cain, that was a terrifyingly awesome string of posts.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: BadBeast on September 01, 2010, 04:46:57 pm
 Yeah great set of posts. Really put my mind at rest.   :tinfoilhat: (I can feel The Fear twitching in it's sleep) 
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on September 02, 2010, 04:09:26 am
I am wondering if I should start a new thread for this kind of thing, though.  This thread seemed devoted to a more theoretical discussion, whereas these are more practical examples of power perpetuating itself and shaping society through that.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Triple Zero on September 02, 2010, 12:32:10 pm
I am wondering if I should start a new thread for this kind of thing, though.  This thread seemed devoted to a more theoretical discussion, whereas these are more practical examples of power perpetuating itself and shaping society through that.

I say split it, it definitely deserves its own thread.

Got any dates with those excerpts? Especially the MindWar one?

Is that ELF effect real?
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LuciferX on October 18, 2010, 12:37:51 pm
I digress, however, calling my brother out cause he don't shine like you made him just is not right ;-)
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Jasper on October 18, 2010, 04:51:03 pm
And thus horror becomes loathing.

I do feel ill now.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: BadBeast on October 18, 2010, 05:21:47 pm
I think it definitely deserves it's own thread. With a suitably ambiguous title. These people  clearly mean us no good, and seem to have the drop on just about any form of dissent. So how can we sit idly by, and simply speculate on what unutterably evil shit is coming our way? . They offer nothing of any benefit to anyone except themselves, yet espouse words like security, stability, and preservation. I say we need to counter their suckiness and fuckery wherever it shows itself. Send them back to their Masters with a bloody nose.  *Spits* give them The Fear™ for a change. See how they like those apples.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LuciferX on November 15, 2010, 03:38:22 pm
The machine generates heated humans, physically
Otherwise just a bunch of poor posturing fools
Churning out missing links to their own dead-end
Lives cast on the ballast of an old adjusters rules
To remedy horror's influence which levity pretends
Does not serve her interest, leaving in the end.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 23, 2012, 09:23:47 pm
The Machine™ is what makes people send other people to diee for abstractions.

The Machine™ is what drives people to spend 40 hours a week doing tasks they dislike.

The Machine™ is what encourages people to want things they don't need, and makes them feel guilty for not having.

The Machine™ wants you to be in debt to a corporation.

The Machine™ is a punishing father figure.

The Machine™ beats you up for your lunch money.

The Machine™ knows what is RIGHT, and what is WRONG.





What is The Machine™ for you?

The Machine™ is every man, woman, and child on Earth that either supports or makes excuses for the above behavior.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 07, 2014, 05:05:09 am
What is The Machine™ for you?

The Machine™ is what you become when you stop viewing people as persons.  It is what you become when you decide that a person or group of people is dead to you.  It is what happens to you when you become so jaded that "friend" is defined as "someone who I haven't fucked over yet/hasn't fucked me over yet."

When you collect a bunch of people with these characteristics up, you get THE Machine™, in which each person becomes a tiny cog, smugly self-assured that they WON.



Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LuciferX on September 07, 2014, 08:05:05 am
The Machine must be euthanized,
Or our children it will consume.
It's death is computerized
And so our lives resume

It dies sweet slumber's grace,
Without a moments notice.
The loving still displaced,
Till faces stay erased.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: MasterBlaster on September 09, 2014, 01:46:50 am
Quote
The phrase, the world wants to be deceived, has become truer than had ever been intended. People are not only, as the saying goes, falling for the swindle; if it guarantees them even the most fleeting gratification they desire a deception which is nonetheless transparent to them. They force their eyes shut and voice approval, in a kind of self-loathing, for what is meted out to them, knowing fully the purpose for which it is manufactured. Without admitting it they sense that their lives would be completely intolerable as soon as they no longer clung to satisfactions which are none at all.
-- Adorno, Culture Industry Reconsidered

The Machine is the framework wherein weakness, ignorance and fear are promoted as social values and then turned into a profit. Of course, some of Its cogs happily defend Its power over reality, because they see personal gain in it. Others simply play along, because it would be too scary to stop being a loyal little sprocket. And so, we came to a point where It was created by us, puny humans, but it has outgrown us. The Machine is its own machinist.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LuciferX on September 09, 2014, 07:24:42 am
Quote
The phrase, the world wants to be deceived, has become truer than had ever been intended. People are not only, as the saying goes, falling for the swindle; if it guarantees them even the most fleeting gratification they desire a deception which is nonetheless transparent to them. They force their eyes shut and voice approval, in a kind of self-loathing, for what is meted out to them, knowing fully the purpose for which it is manufactured. Without admitting it they sense that their lives would be completely intolerable as soon as they no longer clung to satisfactions which are none at all.
-- Adorno, Culture Industry Reconsidered

The Machine is the framework wherein weakness, ignorance and fear are promoted as social values and then turned into a profit. Of course, some of Its cogs happily defend Its power over reality, because they see personal gain in it. Others simply play along, because it would be too scary to stop being a loyal little sprocket. And so, we came to a point where It was created by us, puny humans, but it has outgrown us. The Machine is its own machinist.
So, what's your part? :lulz:
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LMNO on September 09, 2014, 11:32:24 am
Quote
The phrase, the world wants to be deceived, has become truer than had ever been intended. People are not only, as the saying goes, falling for the swindle; if it guarantees them even the most fleeting gratification they desire a deception which is nonetheless transparent to them. They force their eyes shut and voice approval, in a kind of self-loathing, for what is meted out to them, knowing fully the purpose for which it is manufactured. Without admitting it they sense that their lives would be completely intolerable as soon as they no longer clung to satisfactions which are none at all.
-- Adorno, Culture Industry Reconsidered

The Machine is the framework wherein weakness, ignorance and fear are promoted as social values and then turned into a profit. Of course, some of Its cogs happily defend Its power over reality, because they see personal gain in it. Others simply play along, because it would be too scary to stop being a loyal little sprocket. And so, we came to a point where It was created by us, puny humans, but it has outgrown us. The Machine is its own machinist.
So, what's your part? :lulz:

LuciferX: The stopped clock of Discordia.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: Cain on September 09, 2014, 12:17:28 pm
Critique allows the system to steadily adapt in the face of social and technological change, retaining the core characteristics while altering the non-essential in the name of "progress" or "modernisation" or similar.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: LuciferX on September 09, 2014, 08:52:57 pm
Quote
The phrase, the world wants to be deceived, has become truer than had ever been intended. People are not only, as the saying goes, falling for the swindle; if it guarantees them even the most fleeting gratification they desire a deception which is nonetheless transparent to them. They force their eyes shut and voice approval, in a kind of self-loathing, for what is meted out to them, knowing fully the purpose for which it is manufactured. Without admitting it they sense that their lives would be completely intolerable as soon as they no longer clung to satisfactions which are none at all.
-- Adorno, Culture Industry Reconsidered

The Machine is the framework wherein weakness, ignorance and fear are promoted as social values and then turned into a profit. Of course, some of Its cogs happily defend Its power over reality, because they see personal gain in it. Others simply play along, because it would be too scary to stop being a loyal little sprocket. And so, we came to a point where It was created by us, puny humans, but it has outgrown us. The Machine is its own machinist.
So, what's your part? :lulz:

LuciferX: The stopped clock of Discordia.
LMNO: Bent square and crooked rule of the Principia.
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: hirley0 on September 22, 2014, 01:39:48 pm
Well? it may be a timing device to measure " DBD "
Days between dates  &NOT Ms per event So i will try 4:40
and that might be 6:47:30 my pdt?





Quote
T
T.
t?
X: T
nt square

September 08, 2014, 04:46:50 pm
52S 60-47+24= 37min ? 6hr {maybe 5
September 08, 2014, 10:24:42 pm
4 hr
September 09, 2014, 02:32:24 am
ALL right i was rushing by 12 S this anyway
 eptember 09, 2014, 11:52:57 am   {9h 30m 33s ?Ms 4:48:00.0
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: hirley0 on September 23, 2014, 12:54:00 pm
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=31337.msg1357717#msg1357717

6:01:40>

01:39:38 = 11:31:53 pm

D:\WINDOWS\SETUPACT.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SETUPERR.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SETUPAPI.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\MEDCTROC.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\NETFXOCM.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\OCMSN.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\WIASERVC.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\WIADEBUG.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\STI_TR~1.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\CMSETACL.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\REGOPT.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\OCGEN.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\FAXSETUP.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\IIS6.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\COMSETUP.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\NTDTCS~1.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\TSOC.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\MSMQINST.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\IMSINS.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\MSGSOCM.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\TABLETOC.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\WMSETUP.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\DTCINS~1.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SESSMG~1.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\WINDOW~1.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\0.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\WBEM\LOGS\FRAMEW~1.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\WBEM\LOGS\SETUP.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\WBEM\LOGS\MOFCOMP.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\WBEM\LOGS\REPLOG.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\WBEM\LOGS\WBEMCORE.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\WBEM\LOGS\WMIPROV.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\WBEM\LOGS\WBEMPROX.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\WBEM\LOGS\WBEMESS.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\WBEM\LOGS\WMIADAP.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\CATROOT2\RES2.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\CATROOT2\RES1.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\CATROOT2\EDB00011.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\CATROOT2\EDB00012.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\CATROOT2\EDB00013.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\CATROOT2\EDB00014.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\CATROOT2\EDB00015.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\CATROOT2\EDB00016.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\CATROOT2\EDB.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\MSDTC\MSDTC.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM32\MSDTC\TRACE\DTCTRACE.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\REPAIR\SETUP.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SECURITY\LOGS\SCESETUP.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SECURITY\LOGS\SCEROOT.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SECURITY\LOGS\BACKUP.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\DEBUG\PASSWD.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\DEBUG\NETSETUP.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\DEBUG\BLASTCLN.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\DEBUG\USERMODE\USERENV.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\PCHEALTH\HELPCTR\LOGS\HCUPDATE.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SOFTWA~1\REPORT~1.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SOFTWA~1\DATAST~1\LOGS\EDB.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SOFTWA~1\DATAST~1\LOGS\RES2.LOG
D:\WINDOWS\SOFTWA~1\DATAST~1\LOGS\RES1.LOG
D:\PROGRA~1\MOZILLA\INSTALL.LOG
D:\PROGRA~1\MOZILLA\UNINST~1\UNINST~1.LOG
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: hirley0 on September 25, 2014, 05:53:58 pm
Friday Sat 27 it was an UP day 27 .
yeah ? yeah  it is Thursday | My reaction time = 1
Slow the story is {today | the sync moment is not :43s but 50
A change from yesterday of +7 | Ha Ha | &U thought { Never mind {{MaC
Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: hirley0 on September 28, 2014, 09:30:16 am
ad 40076I have no idea where this is going 12:34:56.7 {Just Joking
| Sober up Would U ? prior post was 3s Fast sorry | its HARD2 do 2:37:55 =
My guess is My.t = dT 1s/d so today should be 53 & 0,1,2,3,4.5m
2AM  SONGS >10.2 & wAR.bs ON .1 I-SO-LA-T.ioN
12:03:06 ad 40125 07:00 2014 09/29 Mt On.HKBANKT.gas
07:42 2014 09/30 VIET NAM TOOK THE ROBOT PRIZE :
AND LAST NIGHT WAS A VERY BAD MRSA DAY { got it
session timed out / 6:22:50 am ad 40182
?~"orld wants to be de"? Not an ASr7 {never mind
there must be some song? Maybe tomorrow
01:57:02?0530BBC Lt19:11 YELLOW Umbrilla / Ebola.CON
Ben@12:19L PLASTIC BOX | Texas | bed rest 12:20 |
fom LiBeRiA |pdT 5:54am bbc= Sand Bag | fort ? LINK
ad 40251.6:02:57?13:55 "mbrilla / Ebo" yea: no C.Rose2day |Just Ebol Xmass = 80K |OR| >
IT DOES SEAM 2Me | I GAIN 1s/d & Board Looses 1 too
ad 40269.12:04:0303:11 the Time Sync =>8min
"I GAIN 1" ? Actually my computer clock gets hacked daily
Min = 28 on my second update effort hal6a reported

Title: Re: What is The Machine™
Post by: hirley0 on October 05, 2014, 10:30:03 am
ad 40395@01:04:04  My1 Gains ?=1s/d B=? -1s/d + drifts apart
ad 40373@1:04:03 THIS Line IS about THE Line below
ad 40351@1:03:04:"m=s": not so Wed{brown  Lunar Eclips peek in 1 hr Blood Red
ad 40334@3:04:04
ad 40323@2:04:04Was Smooth Mon SoP5==m=s 4all5
ad40301.1:30:03 thier4 the Kount v Post >2 =-1
Menos UNo | & P#4 == H:o4:o4 | MsRa/MrSa [Eb o La]
ad40281.6:04:04 "illa/Eb" May be something to ROOMer:
the sync moment is
^READ UP^