Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Think for Yourself, Schmuck! => Topic started by: Cain on January 25, 2007, 09:39:52 pm

Title: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cain on January 25, 2007, 09:39:52 pm
LMNO, LHX, RWHN?  Care to comment?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on January 25, 2007, 09:53:41 pm
Alright, I'm going to approach this from an organizational perspective and leave the philosophy to LMNO and LHX as they are much more adept at describing those things than I am.

The Black Iron Prison was/is an effort to revisit Discordia in written form.  The general consensus, if it can be called that, was that while the original Principia Discordia holds important messages and philosophies, we wondered if some of the humor and language might be dated and lost on a younger generation of Discordians.  Also, we are all egotistical blowhards who like to see our thoughts in print.   :-D

So, we discussed ideas, memes, philosophies, etc., then we all started writing.  The first result was The Black Iron Prison: Discordia Revisited.  Click here (http://poee.co.uk/doc_files/bip-a4.pdf) to download it and read it if you haven't already.  Plans were made while this first pamphlet was being put together to produce more pamphlets, we even had titles like "Lollercaust" which would have been a more "humorous" effort with more modern humor infused into the writings.  Of course, we all have lives, jobs, etc. so things did stall a bit.  And then came the pd.com crash...

...so during the downtime a new message board was created where we could continue to discuss more ideas, philosophies, memes, definitions, deconstructions, so on and so forth.  When pd.com came back up for good, and was under new management, the effort was moved back here.  (of course the Black Iron Prison Forum crash kind of turned that into a necessity).

And so that is where we are today.  That is the logistics of it.  Again, LMNO and LHX can fill in the philosophical details and other things I'm sure I missed.  Hope this is of some benefit.  I encourage n00bs, lurkers, etc. to download the pamphlet and read it.  Share it with their friends and family.  And then, join the fray!
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LHX on January 26, 2007, 02:34:38 am
This is a tough thing to summarize in clear simple terms, but lemme give it a shot.

See if I can shoot some darts here - feel free to edit/refine/critic:

There seems to be a few things that we do here:

- the map is not the territory, but we seek to compile the most effective map to use to navigate the territory

- we investigate obstacles to see whether they are real or illusions

- we investigate the limitations of working as individuals and working as a group

- there seems to be a relationship between freedom and responsibility, so we work to determine what nature of responsibilities a person could possibly have in this context

- we seem to have become comfortable with an approach at discussing new issues that seems to combine Occam's Razor and Maybe Logic
- this approach seems to be effective at getting to the core of any new issues that come up

- we dont claim to 'know' anything 'special', but rather we just seem to have developed a real effective system of deconstructing complex things so that they can be made useful

- the real tie that seems to bind people together here is a burning desire to cut thru the bullshit wherever it may appear
like a anti-bullshit task force


we understand the danger of making claims, so we dont make any of them



other trends:
- occult knowledge
- producing materials loosely related to 'Discordianism'


the closest we come to making a claim is saying that we believe people should have the opportunity to think freely, and we try to encourage and provide tools for people to do that




im gonna post this and then re-read it later to see how much of it is bullshit
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on January 26, 2007, 01:17:57 pm
I thnk of this sub forum as the place where New Ideas go. It's not talking about the PD, it's not just nonsequitor babble, it's not dinner recipies, it's not literature, and it's not rants.

It's also looking like this is where plans for dissemination are born. Pamphlets, podcasts, video, etc.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LHX on January 26, 2007, 01:34:20 pm
we lurve new ideas


LHX - is oddly aroused
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on January 26, 2007, 01:51:43 pm
LMNO makes a good point.  A n00b might ask "what's the difference between the Principia Discordia subforum and The Black Iron Prison Subforum.  I would think the former is to discuss the former literature and the latter the new ideas that we are coming up with.  Of course, it seems that this group is more interested in discussing new ideas than rehashing ideas from the PD.  But, delving into those discussions from time to time are good for not only orientating the new person, but keeping the rest of us grounded as well. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LHX on January 26, 2007, 02:00:39 pm
it might be helpful to be able to define what exactly it was in the PD that provided the background for all this


because this seems to be a logical progression of that


principles in practice

applied lessons


what does Sepia's sig say?
Post-Modern Anarchism?


being subversive without the whining and crying
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on January 26, 2007, 02:10:32 pm
I dunno... I guess it was an actualization of the Law of Fives, Starbucks pebbles, and the An/Eristic Illusions, really.

That seems to be the  most important things in the PD, and they're all related to the habit humans have of eating the menu.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on January 26, 2007, 02:24:33 pm
Personal Observation - I read PD just before I joined here. Later the same day I read BIP. Loved them both but the contrast was glaringly obvious: PD was upbeat, laughing at the absurdity of it all, BIP was downbeat and sounded sorta angry and bummed by the whole deal. Neither were news to me personally but I gotta admit I prefer to laugh when I'm reading something, even if the topic IS deadly serious, which I happen to think it was in both publications.

I don't know if finding a balance is the right way to approach this or even if that's possible. Suggest alternating releases between 1 totally sinister, angst ridden one (because I know not everyone likes to laugh at everything) and a funny upbeat release (because a lot of people do)
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on January 26, 2007, 02:27:06 pm
Yeah.  We really should get Lollercaust off the ground.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on January 26, 2007, 02:27:53 pm
Here's a couple of sections I think are important.

Quote from: Principia Discordia
NONSENSE AS SALVATION

The human race will begin solving it's problems on the day that it ceases taking itself so seriously.


It is a rather general statement but I think the spirit of it is valid. I think the day-to-day concerted effort at being a good human on this planet focuses people to the point where they lose sight of the bigger picture around them. I think this can translate to not recognizing the bars of the prison and to see that there are multiple paths that they weren't even aware of.

Quote from: Principia Discordia
A SERMON ON ETHICS AND LOVE

One day Mal-2 asked the messenger spirit Saint Gulik to approach the Goddess and request Her presence for some desperate advice. Shortly afterwards the radio came on by itself, and an ethereal female Voice said YES?

"O! Eris! Blessed Mother of Man! Queen of Chaos! Daughter of Discord! Concubine of Confusion! O! Exquisite Lady, I beseech You to lift a heavy burden from my heart!"

WHAT BOTHERS YOU, MAL? YOU DON'T SOUND WELL.

"I am filled with fear and tormented with terrible visions of pain. Everywhere people are hurting one another, the planet is rampant with injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers imprison sons, children perish while brothers war. O, woe."

WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH THAT, IF IT IS WHAT YOU WANT TO DO?

"But nobody wants it! Everybody hates it."

OH. WELL, THEN STOP.

At which moment She turned herself into an aspirin commercial and left The Polyfather stranded alone with his species.

I think this section is appropriate. We've all heard the statements, "Oh well if humans would all stop being so stupid!", or something to that affect. I think this section is appropriate as it illustrates that it really isn't necessarily that simple. Sure, a lot of people say they want World Peace, or that they want to end Poverty, or they want to win the War on Drugs, Terror, whatever. But, the thing is, it's probably safe to say it's never going to happen where everyone just stops and plays nice. On paper it sounds simple, but when you are dealing with different societies, cultures, grids, personalities, etc., etc., it gets really sticky.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on January 26, 2007, 02:30:23 pm
Personal Observation - I read PD just before I joined here. Later the same day I read BIP. Loved them both but the contrast was glaringly obvious: PD was upbeat, laughing at the absurdity of it all, BIP was downbeat and sounded sorta angry and bummed by the whole deal. Neither were news to me personally but I gotta admit I prefer to laugh when I'm reading something, even if the topic IS deadly serious, which I happen to think it was in both publications.

I don't know if finding a balance is the right way to approach this or even if that's possible. Suggest alternating releases between 1 totally sinister, angst ridden one (because I know not everyone likes to laugh at everything) and a funny upbeat release (because a lot of people do)

Perhaps with a different cast of characters we will have more success this time around.  And perhaps it will be easier to find a balance.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LHX on January 26, 2007, 04:18:41 pm
the only way it can get worse is if it settles


even bad moves are good moves just by virtue of being moves





lol

fuck
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Jenne on January 26, 2007, 06:38:56 pm
Silly's point is a good one.  I think a thread should be made to call out for "Teh Silly"...

Should I do it?

And good thread, Guys...I think this was needed, esp when guys like that Laz show up and get it backward and insided out.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LHX on January 26, 2007, 06:40:43 pm
Silly's point is a good one.  I think a thread should be made to call out for "Teh Silly"...

Should I do it?

And good thread, Guys...I think this was needed, esp when guys like that Laz show up and get it backward and insided out.

we tried

forced funnay = teh contrived and unfunnay
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on January 26, 2007, 06:41:55 pm
Plus, we found that most of us like gallows humor, anyway.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Jenne on January 26, 2007, 06:50:36 pm
Silly's point is a good one. I think a thread should be made to call out for "Teh Silly"...

Should I do it?

And good thread, Guys...I think this was needed, esp when guys like that Laz show up and get it backward and insided out.

we tried

forced funnay = teh contrived and unfunnay

You don't have to force to solicit.  Soliciting means:  gimme something if you have it or are already thinking of it and it's germinating.

Anyway, to keep from td'ing this thing further...I'll start a thread and the discussion can move there.  This thread is too important to mess that up with.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on January 26, 2007, 06:51:03 pm
Cool.  I look forward to the Lollercaust.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: eL sTiKo on February 22, 2007, 02:29:10 am
Only just noticed and read the bip now.

Let me tell everyone among you who might care that I think it's very well-written.

It's also quite dark. It's funny how you can make an old goth like me feel like Barbie in comparison!

I'm off to write about smiles and lollipops now. Toodles!
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Lies on March 07, 2007, 08:59:12 am
Hmm, just some thoughts...

Read a little of BIP, due to its "print nature" and me not really in the best position to print atm, I skimmed it and got a bit of the gist of it.

I think, if it's any aim to "update" the PD with BIP, then it's definitely off the mark so far, but maybe I misread what the BIP is intended for.
In any case, I suppose it wouldn't make for a bad *companion* guide to the PD, it seems to me though, that BIP is trying to *explain* things, where as PD was more a *pointer* to things. As it is said, "The Tao that can be spoken is not the true and eternal Tao".

All I can really say is, as a *relatively* young person  (in comparison to the ages of the people who wrote the PD anyway) living in Aus, I still find PD very relavent, and theres little that I cannot truely grasp due to culture/age difference.

In anycase, I'll give it a better read later, and I may change my mind about a few things, I don't know.
But in anycase, do what thou wilt, for I don't give a stuff. It should be interesting in any case.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on March 07, 2007, 11:19:04 am
PD was more a *pointer* to things. As it is said, "The Tao that can be spoken is not the true and eternal Tao".

i like this
he may have some point here
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on March 07, 2007, 12:04:23 pm
PD was more a *pointer* to things. As it is said, "The Tao that can be spoken is not the true and eternal Tao".

i like this
he may have some point here

Point or no point it doesn't excuse that avatar.  :argh!:
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on March 07, 2007, 12:08:34 pm
i sort of like the font, but that's the lamest julia fractal i've ever seen
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on March 07, 2007, 01:54:23 pm
Lys, the BIP by itself wasn't supposed to replace the PD. 

The BIP is an expansion and re-interpretation on the RAW (and others) concept of "reality maps".  We kept extrapolating on it, and it sort of took over for a while.

There are mumblings that we should work on other aspects, but no breakthroughs as of yet.



I'm curious, in what ways do you think BIP "misses the mark"?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: hunter s.durden on March 07, 2007, 06:04:47 pm
PD was more a *pointer* to things. As it is said, "The Tao that can be spoken is not the true and eternal Tao".

i like this
he may have some point here

Point or no point it doesn't excuse that avatar. :argh!:

My, you're feeling frisky.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Jenne on March 08, 2007, 06:38:03 am
Silly embodies frisky.

As far as I knew, anyway.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Lies on March 10, 2007, 10:27:11 am
I'm curious, in what ways do you think BIP "misses the mark"?

Truthfully, I really don't know. I skimmed it. I *think* got the jist of it. I may change my mind. Was just thoughts, none of which I've really mind up my mind upon.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on March 12, 2007, 11:59:04 am
Not to sound self-important, but "skimming" it won't really work.


In fact, I think most of the arguments on this board come from people skimming someone's rant/thread, and then bringing up an objection that was already addressed.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LHX on March 12, 2007, 12:53:19 pm
shows how important it is to deliver on the first sentence
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on March 12, 2007, 12:55:36 pm
Or, it shows how lazy the average human can be.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cain on March 12, 2007, 12:59:10 pm
Most humans go by their first impressions, which are created into the first 30 seconds to minute of an encounter.  I see no reason why prose would be treated differently.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on March 12, 2007, 01:09:18 pm
For the record, I am not terribly pleased with most humans.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LHX on March 12, 2007, 01:13:10 pm
or how communication is not actually possible (according to physics)
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on March 12, 2007, 01:23:35 pm
Say what?  How does physics fit into that?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Lies on March 12, 2007, 03:30:27 pm
Err, I did disclaim these are my thoughts as I had a skim through it.
My word is not official. Just the thoughts of a skimmer, No more. No Less.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on March 12, 2007, 03:36:54 pm
I never said your thoughts were official.  I did, however express interest as to the further explanation of the thoughts themselves. 

Currently, I'm curious as to how many other things you comment on after briefly skimming them.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on March 12, 2007, 03:48:02 pm
Most humans go by their first impressions, which are created into the first 30 seconds to minute of an encounter. I see no reason why prose would be treated differently.

i think with prose you should count yourself lucky if you actually get 30 secs
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on March 12, 2007, 04:06:19 pm
Not to sound self-important, but "skimming" it won't really work.


In fact, I think most of the arguments on this board come from people skimming someone's rant/thread, and then bringing up an objection that was already addressed.

:mittens:

This is why you don't see many comments from me in Or Kill Me.  I don't have enough time for some of the longer rants to do any justice in making any comments outside of "rah" :mittens:, etc. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: SuuCal on March 12, 2007, 05:09:35 pm
I never said your thoughts were official. I did, however express interest as to the further explanation of the thoughts themselves.

Currently, I'm curious as to how many other things you comment on after briefly skimming them.


I second that emotion.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Lies on March 13, 2007, 05:38:57 pm
 :argh!:
I basically did give a few things a good read, i just didn't read it all.
I'm commenting on what I did read, because I know that much.
In any case, the points I made all have some element of truth in them, I touched the elephant, and commented that the elephant feels like a trunk.
I have yet to try to find his penis yet though.

Is that much that hard to see?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on March 13, 2007, 05:42:53 pm
Hmm, just some thoughts...

Read a little of BIP, due to its "print nature" and me not really in the best position to print atm, I skimmed it and got a bit of the gist of it.

I think, if it's any aim to "update" the PD with BIP, then it's definitely off the mark so far, but maybe I misread what the BIP is intended for.
In any case, I suppose it wouldn't make for a bad *companion* guide to the PD, it seems to me though, that BIP is trying to *explain* things, where as PD was more a *pointer* to things. As it is said, "The Tao that can be spoken is not the true and eternal Tao".

All I can really say is, as a *relatively* young person (in comparison to the ages of the people who wrote the PD anyway) living in Aus, I still find PD very relavent, and theres little that I cannot truely grasp due to culture/age difference.

In anycase, I'll give it a better read later, and I may change my mind about a few things, I don't know.
But in anycase, do what thou wilt, for I don't give a stuff. It should be interesting in any case.

This is your first comment.

The bolded part is what I've been asking about, and you haven't given your thoughts, you've just pinwheeled.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Lies on March 13, 2007, 05:46:07 pm
Aye, exactly. Its off the mar so far and i didn't understand what the intention of the book was, I was comparing it to PD, and noticing while the message was good, the humour was lacking a little. Oh it was there, -I- Could see it, but for all the wrong reasons I think.

Like I said, my mind wasn't made up.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on March 13, 2007, 06:05:33 pm
Ok, second question:   What parts of the original PD do you find useful?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Lies on March 14, 2007, 11:03:50 am
Ok, I've finally given the BIP a proper read now, and now here are my thoughts again.

IF the idea was something that could possibly replace the PD, then, yeah, this is a long way off, it's not the pd, which is fine, because I don't think it's meant to be the PD.

I feel the style of writing is very "Kick in the balls and feel the pain, do you understand enough now that you'll want to hit back?", if you get what I mean.

Anyway, to answer your second question, the things I found useful in PD.
I found that PD did not try to really explain, moreso point.
It did so in an absurd and at first glance, a "not to be taken seriously" way, which for alot of people, is where they'll conclude it is, not to be taken seriously.
I for one though, read the PD, had a laugh, put it down, forgot about it, pursude other theological interests (Born Catholic, messed around in "paranormal magick"(which at that point made me a major skeptic of all things "mystic"), buddhist, zen, Discordia, CoS, Hindu (Hare Krshna to be specific), Tao, Scientology... in about that sort of order, but I know it's probably chronologically out of whack because I sorta investigated each like "samplers" of religion, and went back and forth between a few, and by the end of it, I came back, picked up the PD, read it again, and like *bam* instantly everything no longer was absurd dada "hey lets make fun of religion by writing a book about a imaginary god" nonsense, I could read *between* the lines now, I could see the *truth* that through Nonsense, you can find your salvation, you can understand.

Then, as soon as I cast off my shackles of what I "believed" in... weird, weird shit has been happening to me. And I know it's because of the PD that allowed this to happen.

Basically, what I got from the PD in the end, was, life is fucking absurd, take a good look and laugh, don't get comfortable in what you think reality *is*, it's only "ideas about reality" that actually exist, that no matter what you do, there will be people that think you are an arsehole, and there will be people that want to eat gum off your shoe, and that the only thing you should worry about is keeping yourself amused untill it's time to go and join in another show.

Everything else that was explained in PD was filler, IMHO, but very good, true in its own way but meaningless in other ways.

I could probably go on for ages about what I think was great about PD, but really, now that I know what I know fro BIP, it's a good book, I'll say, but it's soo fucking serious, almost depressingly so, where as PD showed me that life isn't meant to be taken seriously.
In my mind, PD is yang, BIP is yin. Both good in some ways. Both bad in some ways. Both true. Both lies.

BIP is more direct, to the point, "If you don't get this now you never will" approach, PD waits for those who are ready to understand it.

Do you believe that?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on March 14, 2007, 11:29:27 am

Then, as soon as I cast off my shackles of what I "believed" in... weird, weird shit has been happening to me. And I know it's because of the PD that allowed this to happen.


Careful with that shit - Wierd shit has always been happening to you. Since you read PD you've become acutely aware of it.

You get that mixed up and suddenly churches are being built and infidels burnt and all sortsa fucked up shit.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Lies on March 14, 2007, 11:50:56 am
Yeah, that's what I meant to say. My whole lifes been weird.
Now I've actually noticed.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on March 14, 2007, 04:53:05 pm
btw if that parable of yours was sorta autobiographical, that kinda makes it suck just a littlebit less.

it's still awful, though.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Lies on March 15, 2007, 12:46:05 am
Yeah, actually, it was sorta autobiographical.
Everything in it was true.
In a warped way.
That's what makes it really sad :(
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LHX on March 15, 2007, 01:05:31 am
most autobios are teh suxxorz


if not all
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Malachite on March 15, 2007, 01:14:00 am
(http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/3500/bouncingadxh3.jpg)
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Genocide Device on March 30, 2007, 05:24:45 pm
interesting... can some one link me BIP?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on March 30, 2007, 05:25:50 pm
Check my sig.  should be valid.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Genocide Device on March 31, 2007, 02:38:15 am
cures my lack of adobi updates  :argh!:  i'll read it once my com is doen downloading
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Thurnez Isa on March 31, 2007, 02:54:47 am
http://www.poee.co.uk/bip/index.php?title=BIP_Table_Of_Contents
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on March 31, 2007, 03:05:53 am
That's right, the wiki.  Good call. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: HBOMB on April 10, 2007, 04:09:45 am

For clarifying certain elusive points, might I suggest a few illustrations to help.  Believe me pictures are not just for the illiterate, they do often speak volumes in bringing a verbal point to light for those who don't conceptualize via written words as well as with pictoral representations.  It would help maximize the potential for understanding, thereby drawing in a wider audience. 

BTW I just made my BIP booklet for my reading pleasure...didn't follow the instructions exactly but I gots me a booklet none-the-less.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on April 10, 2007, 12:52:56 pm
I'm working on a couple of gliffy images.  we'll see where it takes us.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Your Audience on April 16, 2007, 01:48:59 am
I read it and it's interesting but I think it could be better.

A few basic points:

I know it's probably been harvested from lots of different sources but I think the style should be more coherent. If you're going to address the reader as 'mate' then continue doing so (or not if I were you, didn't quite ring true). Maybe give it to one person and let them re-wright it in a consistent style. The TGRR interludes are good but you're gonna need more interlude type chapters from other 'characters' or just more from his good self for balance. Short paragraphs at the end of sections of just the very best stuff would work just as well.

If it's ment to be a collection of different 'posts' on a website then make it more obvious that that's what it is. At present it's an interesting read but with no structure, therefore very little focused impact.

For more impact I would try and engage the reader in more practical endeavours. The whole sprockets and widgets thing was intriguing but sadly wasn't developed at all. Go into detail, draw a full colour map! Give suggestions on how to fuckup the Machine's basic processes in the personal sphere.

As a structure, the philosophising bits could be interspersed with the activity bits for good balance.

There's a fair bit of repetition that needs weeding out and a lot of stuff talked around from similar angles. Better to make the point and build on it than waffle around the same point (which seemed to happen in the last few sections which should have been mor sprocket and widget stuff, practical info and aplications).

I think you could wittle the whole thing down to a third of it's current size and have a much more direct impact on the reader.

A more coherent style will ensure the message doesn't become diluted.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on April 16, 2007, 12:44:50 pm
I think you could wittle the whole thing down to a third of it's current size and have a much more direct impact on the reader.

hm, i think this is a very good point, especially thinking of attention-spans. people are more likely to read something short, and if he want to know more, they simply need a few pointers (simply www.blackironprison.com would be best, people can memorize that)

about the different sources, i think that's a good thing. if it's not clear they're different sources/writers/pieces, i agree it should be made clearer, but again it lowers the treshold for reading a piece, because it's only a few paragraphs.

practical endaevours, yes, we need more of those. always :) please suggest a few, if you've got some :)
(a collection of these also might make a good page on the wiki, to be crossreferenced with Now What Do I Do? (http://www.poee.co.uk/bip/index.php?title=Now_What_Do_I_Do%3F))
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on April 17, 2007, 01:19:56 pm
I keep getting these urges to do a major editing job on the original BIP pamphlet, but I feel really weird about fucking around with someone else's writing.

I know it's mostly kopyleft, but still.  I'd hate to make some revisions & piss off the original author.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cain on April 17, 2007, 02:30:56 pm
Well, you could always post them here for consultation.  I think some editing is necessary, if only to highlight the central themes more.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on April 17, 2007, 02:59:16 pm
You have my endorsement for whatever its worth. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on April 18, 2007, 04:31:54 pm
I keep getting these urges to do a major editing job on the original BIP pamphlet, but I feel really weird about fucking around with someone else's writing.

I know it's mostly kopyleft, but still.  I'd hate to make some revisions & piss off the original author.

just do it.

if you end up pissing somebody off you can always try to come to an agreement or just revert that one text to its original state (or leave it out, and write something similar yourself, etc)
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Dags on May 06, 2007, 05:33:41 am
This is part of why I registered back in here. BIP. Is this a HIMEOBS OP or what? Combining efforts? Woah.

I ask because of the Johnny Project over in the other thread mentions HIMEOBS. Isn't the power of HIMEOBS in that we don't talk about HIMEOBS?-heh

Where is Fnord? Gone, name changed or name the same, changed user so Fnord is not Fnord but someone else as Fnord then name changed to? What? Maybe I shouldn't ask... anyways.

Impressive effort. I look forward to checking this out as I have time.

- Dags
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on May 07, 2007, 01:04:40 pm
BIP came about as an attempt to re-examine aspects of the PD in a more modern context.  It's still evolving.  It also has a wiki:
http://www.poee.co.uk/bip/index.php?title=Main_Page
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on May 07, 2007, 01:58:24 pm
BIP and HIMEOBS are separate OPs but sometimes we go to the same conventions.   :evil:
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Dags on May 12, 2007, 02:35:53 am
I'm trying to revisit discordianism in general myself to piece meal together what I'm missing regarding the aims and such whatsoever and ruminating over the unthinking mind.

A link of interest maybe. Unskilled and Unaware of It (http://www.apa.org/journals/features/psp7761121.pdf).  I'd almost rate it as a must read but I guess I'd say
that about a lot of things so don't take my word on it. Check it out if you will.

When I think of the unthinking; It get's perplexing and strange. I don't know why?

In regards to giving people answers? I don't know. Your not getting them to think in this way. Let's say for example; I'm an atheist. I convince a christian to become an atheist too. I just give him answers and he takes them and believes them all lock, stock and barrel. Without giving it much thought; Then I have done him a great disservice. He is no better off now than as a Christian.

He is still accepting blindly what he is told by someone he looks up to, feels is an authority or it just seems fashionable these days to be an Atheist. Poor example I know.. right? Bandwagoners of the world unite!

Well for myself; I wouldn't want to convince an christian to become an atheist. I would however like to encourage a christian to revisit his beliefs and combine that with some critical thinking skills not to become an atheist per se but to use the mind that he believes God gave him. Personally I never aimed at becoming an atheist I just wanted to know the truth about certain things... unfalsifiable things I now realize them to be.

So something like that and not saying BIP does this or doesn't to any extent. Poisoning of the well aside I still maintain my approval of it on the basis of my percieved intentions of it; To get people thinking enough to be able to read damn near anything whatsoever with a questioning mind. Though skepticism taken too far is it's own solipsist nightmare.

As far as scope and purpose being taken into consideration I can only imagine the BIP represents a lot of work by those who have contributed to it. I have thought of doing similiar things in an attempt to unlock some minds but thusfar nothing much. I would however like to point those working on this to the introduction of the skeptic's dictionary which may cover a lot of instances regarding motivation for such things.... intro to the skeptics dictionary  (http://skepdic.com/intro.html)  and an oldy but goody at least I think so .... the truth will make you free (http://www.infidels.org/library/magazines/tsr/1993/4/4front93.html).

I have however no plans to try and dissect and comment on BIP specifically because I don't feel any need to do so other than to say Fucking Rah! I love the mindfuckery so much... but maybe that's just me and others like me.

A maybe here perhaps but in regards to the prison theme and such I'd like to submit one of Goya's works of art for consideration; age aside I can only doubt copyright involvement though this is a cropped version. Used to be my sig for a while.

(http://xs315.xs.to/xs315/07196/mossibleoya1797.JPG)

Now I must consume pizza. Way too much I haven't even began to read here and enjoy. Just gone for a year is all. Damn. Back... umm.. pizza.

Anywho a note to add regarding people being lazy; without generating enough interest or the expectations of a payoff for time served... so to speak; I wouldn't expect anything less. I would however like to be able to say without producing a defensive posture by those who ' already have ' such dedication. If you get to a point when it's a matter of you sacrificing and being the messiah. Please by all means. Stop and re-evaluate.-heh Don't be a messiah. I have no illusions I won't save the world nor intend to. My eyes are open.
Sounds serious doesn't it. Perhaps it is the most serious thing in the world.-meh

Watch the Donnie Dorko (sic) move and see if you get the meaning of ' I'm starting to doubt your committment to sparkle motion '; man I love that line. So yeah invite me to a convention or something because if the unthinking mind is an enemy of yours then your definitely a friend of mine. So it's the weekend, pizza and drinks, movies and music. Friends, warmth, a full belly, volumes of things unread and undiscovered. What more do I require? I don't think I ask for much here and nothing really. Just perhaps to contribute something before my orbital path takes me away from here. Oh and Fuck Yeah Mantis! I see your still around man. If you ever got that soundcard to work check out the noise I linked in teh Library. Enjoy! and to all a good night.

OK! Everyone take a month's vacation or something. Fuck. :evil: 

- Dags



 



Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Adios on May 12, 2007, 03:32:09 am
I never wanted to convert anyone to anything. If thought can be presented in an intelligent and open ended conversational way then the goal of "Think for yourself" is achieved. Standing behind a pulpit and screaming will close ears faster than anything in the world.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Dags on May 12, 2007, 04:16:21 am
No fair I wasn't done with my tenth editing of that post yet.-heh

But from a pulpit they do scream and shout and spit and the ears don't seem turned off of it. Who ever heard of a cult leader that didn't stand up and preach it?  What's a church without a pulpit?

If you have never wanted to convert someone to being something more than what they are now what does that say? Conversion isn't necessarily a bad thing per se just that in doing so by force or by authority and such motivated by Extrinsic ( external force applied ) vs. by Intrinsic ( internal psychological pressures usually by way of cognitive dissonance ) you have done a person a disservice by supplying answers when the idea is to motivate a person to follow their own reasoning or arrive at their own answers by way of their own reasoning. Wake up the mechanics of their own mind. You can't expect someone that hasn't developed their abilities to reason to think critically no more than expecting a couch potato to run a marathon? Maybe something like that or something. So fuck?

As you say ' think for themselves ' though one can hardly say they would try and reason with a child that was headways into running out in front of traffic. At least a person with any empathy or moral turpitude. Funny word that one. Anyways.... Instead would use force ( lifting the child up and taking them from harms way ) it's actually a difficult subject to approach for many reasons. Intervention? More to think about.

Also maybe your right. Maybe I said it was bad to convert people and maybe I didn't. I can't however say I haven't wanted to convert people... actually I have converted people. So fuck you know I've done that and maybe worse.

I would disagree and say maybe the fastest way to close someone ears in the context that you've said is to put them on the defensive. Be it any person and I think it's pretty natural and even in some instances a good thing that people go on the defensive. If you've changed worldviews then you realize the psychological pressure involved. It can be maddening and for some leads to suicide. It can be something to witness too!

The persistence of beliefs is in place for a reason you may know them already but I wouldn't expect a person to change their worldviews overnight; practically unheard of... absent force or a well trained deprogrammer I think they are called that helps people escape a cults brainwashing. All pretty interesting shit to me but hell what do I know? Maybe screaming IS the answer.  :lulz: Alright then. I used the smoking laughing funny hat guy so you know I totally just typed this up real fast. You may see a lot of that. But hey!

What you said sounds good to me. Lots of ways to perceive what someone thinks they said compared to the decoded version response but I hope I don't come across as having any particular answers. Plus as long as it takes me to say... what I get (large amounts of interconnecting data) when thinking about something. I can only imagine a lot of it gets lost in translation and I can probably attribute that to the lengths that I will go to..... to say very little and elaborate way too much.

I haven't a clue what you understand from what I'm saying and I think there is much to learn from the short volume of information contained in the links from that last post. However, from your response it seems you feel I accused you of something... I know it might sound strange but that's what it seemed like? Weird right?

Well I have converted people and if I do so with little or no effort on their part to at least question any of what I say... then they weren't thinking about it too much were they?

Wow. Where does the time go? Think harder. Think until your head hurts and then think some more. What is it about thinking that makes it such an unpopular activity? I think I'll go think about that for a while.

- Dags

note: I put very little thought into this post. Srsly. Check the time stamp.

Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Adios on May 12, 2007, 04:42:07 am
If I thought you accused me of something it would be in plain print and easily understood. I was merely giving my recently learned lesson. As one here very aptly put it, sometimes screaming is preaching to the choir. The choir already knows the scripture. At this point rather than preach to the choir, I would rather learn from them. Some do have the unnatural to get others to listen when they scream. I don't. I prefer to work within my limitations.

Also, when 20 words will do, 100 aren't necessary.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Dags on May 12, 2007, 05:18:20 am
Well I don't know Hawk. I mean indoctrination and conversion are different things. Mainly in the non-critical aspect of blindly leading the blind; so to speak. If you had a choice of the two would you rather be part of a group that favors indoctrination or works at converting people. Maybe like I said to convert people to being more than what they are now?

Mark Twain is known to have said 'Everything has its limit - iron ore cannot be educated into gold.' Since people aren't born with either FE or AU stamped on their foreheads it's not so easy to tell which is what and how far a person can go or even for a person themselves to know the limits of what they can be.

Funny how I couldn't stand it not to say what I did in the little note at the end of the post and your saying when 20 words will do... again makes me feel like you think I've accused you of not giving what I said enough thought. It must just be me in a strange way thinking that. It's all good. Am I the choir or some preacher? Who knows. I must be beyond credulity at this point since I must go I haven't the time to continue this but perhaps there is something said worth reading there if not for you someone else if not for anyone. Nothing drastic.


Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Adios on May 12, 2007, 05:52:15 am
Heh, you really will learn to believe that if I have an issue with you there will be no room for doubt.

My point about the words is this, to much BS dilutes the message, Nothing less, nothing more.

As far as you being a preacher, time alone will tell. I limit my words, and feel I should use them where they are needed. Here they are not needed nearly as much as among those whose eyes still have scales on them. And removing scales is a delicate thing, not to be done with a hammer. But instead with gentleness, and understanding. Not so very long ago my eyes has scales on them. No one can understand like a n00b what will or will not move people.

As far as conversion goes, the right ones will always find their own way to the light. The rest are just chaff in the wind and should be treated as such. It isn't about numbers, it's about the right kind of numbers. A flash in the pan is only good for a very short time. A slow burning heat will do a lot more cooking.

I see you are newer here than me. A friendly piece of advice. Look, listen, and learn before you decide to teach. As I said, a friendly piece of advice.

Title: Your session timed out while posting. Please try to re-submit your message.
Post by: Dags on May 12, 2007, 08:43:12 am
That's a good example then of what I mean. How could you know I've been posting here
off an on since 2005? That doesn't matter though regarding what I'm saying at least to
me it doesn't. What is the truth regarding if I'm a n00b here and such? Is the forum lying
and why trust me. Am I lying about this? To you I'm a perfectly soon to be fucked n00b.
That's great fine and good but is it true? What do you think?

However if BIP is meant to be propagated then it's meant to be propagated for a reason.
I'm glad you brought it up actually and whether it's accusations or not regarding
conversion being something one might ought to do or whatnot. Doesn't matter I can go
all fucking off into a blissful sea of non-sensical jibberish if I want to. It's not very hard to
do. BIP is my focus here however I'm open to suggestions regarding whether or not I'm a
n00b. Says it plain as day don't it.

What I proposed in the first post however here (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=11449.msg396418#msg396418) contains information that I feel is dead on.  Schisms aside.

Regarding the propagation of ideas aimed at be it called whatever it may .........
so I'm glad you made your point. I think it's well worth fleshing out if it hasn't already
been done and maybe it needs to be done repeatedly. I dunno and I don't claim to know;
just sayin'.

Fucked if I'll try and post this again since I keep reminding myself I suck at
posting and not editing it too many times or deleting the whole thing somehow. If a mod
wants to un n00b me since I'm past 50 post here feel free I really don't care but it's going
to be shit explaining it 33 more post or something or another. It's interesting though
because I don't really buy into assumptions based on post counts.  Regardless given
enough interest here and enough time I'll snail my way to 50 or more post. I don't care
as long as I don't piss off fluffy get fed to fluffy or or actually damn near anything fluffy
related.-heh

File it under additional options or somethign who knows maybe something tehn.

- Dags
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on May 14, 2007, 01:13:13 pm
I feel that the BIP model doesn't have to push other beliefs out to make  it's place.  It's more of a meta-structure.  You can be a Christian and still think the BIP is a good idea.  It just makes you understand that your Christianity is a major structural element in your prison, and you can change it if you want to, or not.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on May 14, 2007, 01:59:55 pm
Personally, I don't really think BIP has anything to do with religion.  I also don't think Discordianism has anything to do with religion, at least on a personal level.  To me it's philosophy.  It's another guide, another set of fingers pointing the way.  But in this case of the BIP, the finger is always pointing back at you. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cain on May 14, 2007, 02:00:54 pm
Unless your BIP breaks down the concept of a unitary personality.  Or fingers.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on May 14, 2007, 02:06:29 pm
There's always that. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on May 14, 2007, 02:27:55 pm
Unless your BIP breaks down the concept of a unitary personality.  Or fingers.


That would indicate that your BIP is not digital.










LMNO
-Caught whatever RWHN has.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on May 14, 2007, 02:35:48 pm
Sleep deprivation?

Oh, and I would've have said:

Unless your BIP breaks down the concept of a unitary personality.  Or fingers.

Well then, I'm stumped.   :?

RWHN,
Monday Morning Quarterbacking.

Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Dags on May 15, 2007, 04:25:54 am
I think my BIP is cluttered as fuck right now.

- Dags
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Adios on May 15, 2007, 06:06:30 am
I feel that the BIP model doesn't have to push other beliefs out to make  it's place.  It's more of a meta-structure.  You can be a Christian and still think the BIP is a good idea.  It just makes you understand that your Christianity is a major structural element in your prison, and you can change it if you want to, or not.

Here I think is the core of it. The BIP is tied to absolutely nothing but the limits we ourselves place on our minds and lives. Some traps are easily avoidable, others aren't. I can choose to disdain religion, but making to choice to disdain working is a lot tougher. Or insert your own here. The point and utter truth of the BIP is it is self imposed and maintained. We allow some and reject other parts of it, but we are all within the walls by choice.

To me this is the part that makes it inescapable. Not the Con, or The MachineѢ. It's raining like hell right now and I'm nice and cozy inside because I made the choice. The choice to forfeit a part of me to comfort another part of me. Good or bad choice? I alone can make that call.

Perhaps Dags this is why I don't concern myself too hard with conversion, and NEVER with indoctrination. My own awakening came from me by watching, listening and learning. I feel this is where I need to be, and in my mind this is the kind of 'converts' we need. The ones who by their own choice can open their eyes and follow their instincts. If they have to be drug and coerced then it is indeed a weakened society we will be a part of.

I had examples who had were for the most part open, honest, and extremely well informed and intelligent. This was the lure. And no, I'm not stroking any of you, hell, I'm doing the same now in my own way, so it must be. If we force followers, then we have followers. Sheep of a different color. Sheep are sheep, and this is a wolf den.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 15, 2007, 06:07:21 am
I feel that the BIP model doesn't have to push other beliefs out to make  it's place.  It's more of a meta-structure.  You can be a Christian and still think the BIP is a good idea.  It just makes you understand that your Christianity is a major structural element in your prison, and you can change it if you want to, or not.

Here I think is the core of it. The BIP is tied to absolutely nothing but the limits we ourselves place on our minds and lives. Some traps are easily avoidable, others aren't. I can choose to disdain religion, but making to choice to disdain working is a lot tougher. Or insert your own here. The point and utter truth of the BIP is it is self imposed and maintained. We allow some and reject other parts of it, but we are all within the walls by choice.

To me this is the part that makes it inescapable. Not the Con, or The MachineѢ. It's raining like hell right now and I'm nice and cozy inside because I made the choice. The choice to forfeit a part of me to comfort another part of me. Good or bad choice? I alone can make that call.

Perhaps Dags this is why I don't concern myself too hard with conversion, and NEVER with indoctrination. My own awakening came from me by watching, listening and learning. I feel this is where I need to be, and in my mind this is the kind of 'converts' we need. The ones who by their own choice can open their eyes and follow their instincts. If they have to be drug and coerced then it is indeed a weakened society we will be a part of.

I had examples who had were for the most part open, honest, and extremely well informed and intelligent. This was the lure. And no, I'm not stroking any of you, hell, I'm doing the same now in my own way, so it must be. If we force followers, then we have followers. Sheep of a different color. Sheep are sheep, and this is a wolf den.

:mittens:
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on May 15, 2007, 12:59:00 pm
Right the fuck on, Hawk.

Nails it in one.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on May 15, 2007, 02:10:15 pm
Good show, Hawk.  You're right, conversion and indoctrination would lead us, and the subject down a path or suck and fail.  Folks who will get this and be open to it are already predisposed to these kinds of ideas, but simply aren't privy to resources, literature, and other source material.  They already have the crack of daylight necessary to illuminate their sky.  I think our role is pretty much, "Here you go, enjoy!" 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Dags on May 17, 2007, 12:50:47 am
I feel that the BIP model doesn't have to push other beliefs out to make  it's place.  It's more of a meta-structure.  You can be a Christian and still think the BIP is a good idea.  It just makes you understand that your Christianity is a major structural element in your prison, and you can change it if you want to, or not.

Delayed reply on this because it kept becoming too cluttered when trying to explain the why of mentioning christianity. Basically it was meant as an example of where it's giving answers and NOT engaging a persons mental mechanics. It's an old argument about giving answers without supplying the reasoning behind them cropping up I suppose. So one could come to similiar conclusions on their own ie; no coversion,indoctrination, just supplying the argument, reasoning, framework... etcetera.

The link 'unskilled and unaware of it' explains the phenomena in more depth where a person isn't aware of their lack of knowledge in certain domains and neither will they be able to realize it until after that knowledge has somehow found it's way in without being deflected and ignored. Forced awarness perhaps but I dunno. Doubtful because 'that doesn't apply to me', 'your wrong', 'fuck you' or something like that. Persistance of belief won't budge in the face of contradictory evidence and
as per skepdic.com much said in the article about 'true believers'.

So I wasn't trying to say that BIP is necessarily about indoctrination, conversion, intervention or even therapy for the masses. Just to say it's there for some reason or is it? or is it? Rev. What's His Name says it's there to enjoy; which sounds good to me. I did enjoy it and found some good twist and turns within it.

- Dags
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Dags on May 17, 2007, 01:15:54 am
.... in this case of the BIP, the finger is always pointing back at you. 


Reading the BIP again (I think it takes me about 30 or 40 minutes to read) I still didn't understand what LMNO meant by meta-structure or how BIP could apply to me. The first part of it doesn't ring true with me on many things nor does a lot of the rest of it in a 'that's me right there' way? So I didn't see how a person reading was  supposed to incorporate these ideas into their own organization of reality as LMNO said; one can take some parts of it and leave others be.... I just thought in this way it could become too contradictory to accept as valid. Cluttered is all I could think of.... in regards to my BIP. Lots of info, ideas, pieces and parts, half read books, half thunken thoughts and fully read books with lots and lots lost... or something. In regards to me.

I decided to search the web on black iron prison and see what else I could find on Black Iron Prison and it returns results from a Philip K. Dick novel.  Which makes mentions of some things or another about it but here I found a meta-structure possibly? That might correlate with the Black Iron Prison be it coincidental or not. Which describes it in another way adding to that hints of a rise in fascism and the last attempts to thwart it possibly being too far gone now or something.

From: Tim Bouchers Blog / Pop Occulture
http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/05/29/the-minimum-security-black-iron-prison/

From a Simpson's episode to an excerpt from a nice piece explaining the Philip K. Dick version with a broken link then goes into explaining some of the gnostic concepts behind the prison. Which AFAIK is the original way PKD interpreted it.

The concept is defined in wikipedia as such; VALIS 6.1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VALIS#Black_Iron_Prison

Quote
The Black Iron Prison is a concept of an all-pervasive system of social control postulated in the Tractates Cryptica Scriptura, a summary of an unpublished Gnostic exegesis included in VALIS.

Quote
:"Everyone who had ever lived was literally surrounded by the iron walls of the prison; they were all inside it and none of them knew it."


Wade Inganamort has an article on Alex Jones website that delves into the concept of social control and incorporates the concept of the Black Iron Prison into his views. Some of the many links work from this article but hardly all of them.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_inganamort_121702_subdermal.html

With this I seem to understand the framework better and see how it can be incorporated as that wall of social control bearing down of us all. I can only surmise that many will live and die without looking for it blissfully perhaps but will those leaving the prison yard, ignoring the sign that reads please don't leave, really ruin it for the rest of those inside.

Quote
It's not a prison if you never try the door.

- Dags
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Dags on May 17, 2007, 01:23:55 am
Quote from: Hawk link=topic=11449.msg397470#msg397470
Perhaps Dags this is why I don't concern myself too hard with conversion, and NEVER with indoctrination. My own awakening came from me by watching, listening and learning. I feel this is where I need to be, and in my mind this is the kind of 'converts' we need. The ones who by their own choice can open their eyes and follow their instincts. If they have to be drug and coerced then it is indeed a weakened society we will be a part of.

By reasoning and being intelligent then you'll have an effect on others without necessarily trying to... have an effect on them. I dunno. Just a thought.

I got nothing from me until I learned to look at myself maybe and some kind of metacognition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacognition) got involved and it's been a pretty wild trip since then. It took others doing what they do regardless of their reasons for doing it... to do that.

- Dags
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cain on May 17, 2007, 10:09:06 am
Gotta say I'm glad to have you back Dags.

Been lurking on this topic and I thought you'd bring something interesting to it, if not the whole project.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on May 17, 2007, 01:02:27 pm
Wow.  Cool. Ok, Here we go:

First off, we absolutely stole the phrase from PKD.  However, the way we use it is different from the way he uses it.

Quote
Reading the BIP again (I think it takes me about 30 or 40 minutes to read) I still didn't understand what LMNO meant by meta-structure or how BIP could apply to me. The first part of it doesn't ring true with me on many things nor does a lot of the rest of it in a 'that's me right there' way? So I didn't see how a person reading was  supposed to incorporate these ideas into their own organization of reality as LMNO said; one can take some parts of it and leave others be.... I just thought in this way it could become too contradictory to accept as valid.

By "meta structure", I meant that the BIP metaphor is not about what reality "is", but about how we piece together what we eventually call "reality".  Anything (anything) we use to shape or decipher what our senses are telling us is part of the BIP: Xtianity, Hinduism, Scientology... every thought, every experience you have ever had, every emotion, every conversation, they all have a hand in creating your personal BIP.

Also, what do you consider "the first part"?  There's a lot of different stuff in there.

And what doesn't ring true?


Please note I'm not wanting to do a screaming argument.  It's been a while since I reviewed my peremisis, I'd like to go over it again with you, to see if I missed something.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Dags on May 19, 2007, 12:55:15 am
Wow.  Cool. Ok, Here we go:

Like old times and new times at the same time.

Quote
First off, we absolutely stole the phrase from PKD.  However, the way we use it is different from the way he uses it.

I still find his way interesting enough to explore it some more. I am not
familiar with Gnosticism but in the most basic form is that of having
knowledge that others do not possess and possibly cannot possess. The
term brings to mind agnosticism which Im more familiar with as an lack of
knowledge concerning god claims. So god figures in there somewhere but
from a quick look at the wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism) influences of Gnosticism included folks
such as Crowley, Ginsberg and I was pleased to see Howard Bloom thrown
into the mix as well. That alone tells me there is a great deal of tolerance
and/or lack of dogma involved to elicit the support (if it exist as I havent
looked into that much) from such a diverse minded group of individuals. Not
to mention the lack of cookie-cutter mindedness you may find within other
dogmatic religions. Like I said this is really tentative; If making such a
statement on a Gnostic forum I can imagine I would get some angry
responses with  the cry of the true gnostics' at the likes of Crowley
espousing himself or somehow getting mixed up with having studied and
found his influence with the religion? If Gnosticism is still an active religion. I
dont claim to know. Nor at the time I'm posting this care to know. I like
looking forward to checking it out later on. That's how my BIP rolls.

I think PKDs involvement with it definitely adds some dimension and
depth to the Black Iron Prison in how he arrived at the concept. In fact put
in the same way youve stated it PKD could have stolen the BIP from
Gnosticism. He just gave it a name. The phrase itself is nothing without a
referent or concept behind of it. That was the appeal wasnt it? Even if your
aims are to use BIP for a different purpose than PKD. 

Could BIP be more Gnostic than fictional? God could be watching the use of
his original thought passed down to 1st century religious figures and on to
Crowley and others? Just a thought.(Im not religious btw)

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Humorous Interlude Perhaps: HIP

X: hey! BIP.
Y: whatZ? Beep?
X: BIP. Black Iron Prison
Y: Yeah cool. Black Iron Prison. So what?
X: Lets roll with that name.
Y: Whats it mean?
X: Who cares.. 
Y: Just say its cool then? Right?
X: Yep.
Y: Will anyone get it?
X: Probably not.
Y: Cool.
Z: hey! BIP
Y: Yeah its cool right?
Z: I guess so. Yeah.
A: Whats cool?
Z: BIP!
A: Cool. Its BIP!
A: What is it?
Z: Its cool.
A: Ok
B: BIP?
Y: Black Iron Prison.
A: Cool right?
B: Yeah BIP is the coolest.
B: What is it?
A: Its complicated.
B: Srsly?
A: Its cool.
B: Ok.
C: What are you talking about?
B: I dont know. Its cool.
C: Why is it cool?
B: I have no idea.
C: Why claim its cool then.
B: Wutz a clam?
X: STFU! C !!!
C: What power!

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: LMNO
Quote from: Dags
Reading the BIP again (I think it takes me about 30 or 40 minutes to read) I still didn't understand what LMNO meant by meta-structure or how BIP could apply to me. The first part of it doesn't ring true with me on many things nor does a lot of the rest of it in a 'that's me right there' way? So I didn't see how a person reading was  supposed to incorporate these ideas into their own organization of reality as LMNO said; one can take some parts of it and leave others be.... I just thought in this way it could become too contradictory to accept as valid.

By "meta structure", I meant that the BIP metaphor is not about what reality "is", but about how we piece together what we eventually call "reality".  Anything (anything) we use to shape or decipher what our senses are telling us is part of the BIP: Xtianity, Hinduism, Scientology... every thought, every experience you have ever had, every emotion, every conversation, they all have a hand in creating your personal BIP.

Can you guess what Im going to say about this? If its everything then
how do you differentiate it from what its not? If you cant make a
distinction then you cant understand it apart from anything else; including
reality. Everything is everything; is a tautology and tells you nothing about
everything. If it feels, acts, and cant be differentiated from reality then it
must be reality or at least be treated as reality; such as standing in front of
the moving train would leaves a bloody mess of what used to be the one
standing in front of the train versus imagining for a while that your really
right in there with Neo battling it out with Agent Smith( the Matrix being an movie also accredited to Gnostic thought.  At least by a wikipedia article for whatever that may be worth.-heh) Ill be looking to various sources to get more in depth and hopefully a more accurate understanding of it as my interest allows.

I also get confused (congratulations btw) in the way you explain BIP as a
meta-structure, framework, then just go ahead and add everything else
and this is your BIP? Why call it your BIP at all? Is it a project that has a
particular meaning or specific purpose or is BIP just whatever anyone just
wants it to be? If BIP is everything and anything that anyone cooks up and
calls it BIP or their BIP then you cant distinguish it from what isnt BIP
absent the phrase. Therefore the concept of BIP becomes meaningless.
There is nothing to contrast it against. No background and no outside of it.
It becomes then too emcompassing to be meaningful and therefore the
mind will reject it in favor of what seems at least to be more meaningful and more valid. Even if it isn't true. In the realm of separating what is real from what is imaginary religion isn't very useful because it's unfalsifiable. Can't be proven to not be true and regardless of how wild the claims may be. Very profound but containing nothing testable; which sounds vaguely familiar in the context of religious claims. So if anyone's reality is validated as being true within the BIP meta-structure (as it were) then basically anything goes!

-----------------------------------------------------------------

ModL. Another HIP Interlude

Hi Im Joe. In my BIP American Idol is everything! Its my Black Iron Prison. I
wish I knew more about whats going on with American Idol to comment on
it intelligently. Best thing about American Idol for me is how I see it as an
almost perfect example of cognitive dissonance at work. You get to see the
contestants and listen to the singing, hear the parents approval, friends
and such alike that have told some folks on there how they ARE the next
A.I. to poop out the shoot at the top of the poops! Reality creeps in and
does its thing... but some are seemingly bulletproof to the judges
NO!!!!'s and STOP!!!'s ....  Randy says Its a no dog... sorry. Absolutely
bloody ridiculous says Simon.. Ghastly! Paula tries to be nice. Thats nice. I
like that show for that certain amount of reality check. Of course they have
some well secret job skills to figure it out but the audience like me doesnt
have to pretend either. I through a few OMG!! America is totally laughing at
you right now!! I say some stuff out loud to well... my tv and the walls of
my huge PRISON! But really. We all have our songs or singing be whatever
it may be... going for an interview for a job, trying to befriend a stranger,
trying to meet a lady for some companionship, we have and/or are
surrounded at times by the Paulas, the Randys and the Simons of the
world. These are my Gods! I know they are there to help me even if its
painful sometimes to be judged. I try to keep in mind how I would hate to
be laughed at so much when doing things I thought I was good at like
that. Im always on camera. Maybe using the toilet and I mess up in there
and miss the toilet. Randys up there going... no dog? Thats just not good
enough man. Simon just slaps his forehead in disgust. Paula gives me a
little encouragement to get my aim. Wow! Right? I mean you can get so
much from American Idol I hope others join my Black Iron Prison. Some
deep thought here now. Just think it over. Can we be aware of how our
singing sounds to the Gods. How can a person know enough to know
when it needs some work? When you need to fire your instructor/ coach!
When you just need to get your money back... or even in some cases... It
might just be APPAULING! Do something else! Or well you get the picture.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: LMNO
Also, what do you consider "the first part"?  There's a lot of different stuff in
there.

And what doesn't ring true?

Specifically man I dunno. I cant repeat enough how I found the writing to be a great read. Its a whole lot more succinct than I had expected at first glance of the table of contents. I also should mention and this is becoming lengthy so Ill highlight it.

I purposefully didnt read the library and additional works on the main page such so far but I do plan on doing so.

I wanted to read the BIP as I understand it to be disseminated. Without
the benefit of additional works involved in the larger scope of the project?
But like I said I dont want to dissect and comment on the entire BIP as
written. So when I say a lot didnt ring true perhaps Im not the same as
those minded to recognize themselves within it. Im basically a materialist
(philosophically) but Im not a materialist (in regards to consumerism). If Im
not unplugged from the massive herd that is the collective unthinking then
I dont know who is and therefore at least have given more thought to how
I go about speaking out of my nether regions! So just overall it didnt get in
depth enough to engage me. However my mind is fully engaged on a
number of things at the moment LMNO. I suspect you are too. I honestly
am trying to figure out what meaning is given behind the effort here as I
understand it as a collective project: Black Iron Prison.

Quote from: LMNO
Please note I'm not wanting to do a screaming argument.  It's been a while since I reviewed my peremisis, I'd like to go over it again with you, to see if I missed something.

Noted. Im good for some short replies and such I'm just on a writing kick for the moment. So I wrote and maybe covered it all in this one. I think its (..and of course I would I wrote it) all relevant to the subject at hand here in one way or another.

Also some notes of my own then for further consideration. Within my earlier
reply contains what I consider a useful study Unskilled and Unaware of It
others in that post may contain irreligious ideas but I dont mean this to
distract from BIP but to look at the core ideas at play here regarding
existence and reality as well. Statistically speaking the irreligious are the
minority and ideas to question the status quo find themselves dubiously
treading on sacred ground whether they want to or not. So I included links
to explain a position taken of a sort of rational evangelism. The BIP seems
to contain traces of evangelism to me if not overtly in the text
surreptitiously in the appeals to disseminate it.

I've also found epistemological constructivism helpful before and BIP seems
to correlate with some of the ideas found within it; as the active
construction of reality by the perceptions of the mind. Learning isnt passive
nor is how reality appears to us in our interpretations of it. Therefore the
construction isnt passive so a person can realize they are actively engaged
in creating their own realities. Sounds familiar in the concepts of Black Iron
Prison as I understand it from your explanations and from PKD's.

- Dags

Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on May 21, 2007, 01:29:28 pm
First off, we absolutely stole the phrase from PKD.  However, the way we use it is different from the way he uses it.
I still find his way interesting enough to explore it some more. I am not
familiar with Gnosticism but in the most basic form is that of having
knowledge that others do not possess and possibly cannot possess.

As far as I can see it, gnosis was more intended to imply a personal knowledge, a direct experience.  Whereas most of the Xtian church disseminated knowledge in a top-down way, with the priest telling the congregation what was True, the Gnostics decided that the only way to know Truth was to experience it themselves.

Even if the original intent of gnosis was different than this, that is what the word eventually came to mean: a personal, directly experienced knowledge.  The difference between the BIP and Gnostics is that usually, gnosis implies that there is a god figure of some sort from which this Truth is gleaned.  The BIP doesnt make this claim, for various reasons.


Quote
Quote from: LMNO
By "meta structure", I meant that the BIP metaphor is not about what reality "is", but about how we piece together what we eventually call "reality".  Anything (anything) we use to shape or decipher what our senses are telling us is part of the BIP: Xtianity, Hinduism, Scientology... every thought, every experience you have ever had, every emotion, every conversation, they all have a hand in creating your personal BIP.
Can you guess what Im going to say about this? If its everything then
how do you differentiate it from what its not?

Huh?

Quote
If you cant make a distinction then you cant understand it apart from anything else; including reality. Everything is everything; is a tautology and tells you nothing about everything. If it feels, acts, and cant be differentiated from reality then it
must be reality or at least be treated as reality;

Oh, I get it.  You might have read too quickly.  I didnt say everything is everything, I said every system of thought and method of sensory interpretation that is used by you creates your BIP.  I did not say that every system of thought or method of sensory interpretation that exists in the world creates your BIP.

For example, if youre building a birdhouse and you go into your workshop, youll see hundreds of tools, from belt sanders to caulking guns to PVC pipe cutters to pickaxes.  But you wont usually use a pickaxe to make a birdhouse (unless youre making a wicked cool birdhouse).

In the same sort of way, there exists millions of different ways of understanding the universe.  Your BIP is created depending on which ones you choose, not all of them.

Quote
I also get confused (congratulations btw) in the way you explain BIP as a
meta-structure, framework, then just go ahead and add everything else
and this is your BIP? Why call it your BIP at all? Is it a project that has a
particular meaning or specific purpose or is BIP just whatever anyone just
wants it to be? If BIP is everything and anything that anyone cooks up and
calls it BIP or their BIP then you cant distinguish it from what isnt BIP
absent the phrase. Therefore the concept of BIP becomes meaningless.
There is nothing to contrast it against. No background and no outside of it.

I disagree.  If you take my previous reply into account, since your BIP isnt everything, then you can contrast it by mapping out how you decipher the universe, and seeing all the ways in which you dont decode your experiences.

For example, if youre a biology major, try looking at the world through the eyes of a Victorian Poet.  If youre a musician, learn physics.  If you speak English, become fluent in Japanese.  The walls and bars of your cell will soon become apparent.

Quote
It becomes then too emcompassing to be meaningful and therefore the
mind will reject it in favor of what seems at least to be more meaningful and more valid. Even if it isn't true.

Yup.  Law of Fives.

Quote
So if anyone's reality is validated as being true within the BIP meta-structure (as it were) then basically anything goes!

You know Im gonna ask you to define truth, right?

Right.


Quote
Quote from: LMNO
Also, what do you consider "the first part"?  There's a lot of different stuff in there. And what doesn't ring true?

just overall it didnt get in depth enough to engage me.

Yeah, I understand.  The BIP pamphlet was the first thing written, it hasnt been revised since we all started kicking it around.  I think we need a second edition to include stuff from the Wiki, etc.  Maybe someday.


Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 21, 2007, 01:40:46 pm
Fact: I got booted from a gnosis-based board for swearing

Conclusion: Gnosis is for wankers
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Dags on May 22, 2007, 03:56:49 am
Apologies for the tangent on Gnosticism and religion in general. The way I see it worldviews apply here. Also I think the Black Iron Prison concept we are discussing goes beyond the distributable pamphlet version available for download. I'm attempting to combine three versions of the Black Iron Prison and despite the hits and misses here and there it seems doable to find some agreement between them all; if nothing more than a vague possibility I haven't discounted yet. I will try and limit references to religion here on out.

I disagree.  If you take my previous reply into account, since your BIP isnt everything, then you can contrast it by mapping out how you decipher the universe, and seeing all the ways in which you dont decode your experiences.

For example, if youre a biology major, try looking at the world through the eyes of a Victorian Poet.  If youre a musician, learn physics.  If you speak English, become fluent in Japanese.  The walls and bars of your cell will soon become apparent.

There is encouragement to explore more domains of knowledge and aquire new skills and talents but the limitations to that could be self-imposed or due to other constraints; some maybe even preferable ones.

Consider life with no constraints whatsoever. (might sound nice to some folks) Then consider everyone alive without any constraints whatsoever. (maybe not so nice) Is it a meglomaniac that desires such a life? Limitations ( walls and bars ) if I understand this correctly doesn't sound like such a bad thing for folks like that. Maybe something simplier with no constraints like a person posting 1billion post a day? Why. Desire. No Limitations (walls and bars) Intriguing. Maybe worth more consideration...

I can't see getting much objection to stating that lots of people get the shit end of the stick in life. So maybe this has much to do with an underlying assumption within the BIP concept. We could be getting somewhere perhaps?

(Limitations sounds like it'd be a good name for a chapter in some book.)

Quote from: Dags
So if anyone's reality is validated as being true within the BIP meta-structure (as it were) then basically anything goes!

Quote from: LMNO
You know Im gonna ask you to define truth, right?

Right.

I thought you would ask me about something else when actually you never brought it up? In this reply. Maybe something simplier for me to answer.

In the context of how I said it; 'true' is anyone's version of reality however they go about validating it. Whereas 'false' normally would be a worldview that is riddled with BS. (noted this is posted on an discordian forum.-heh)

If taken to mean 'truth' then maybe in the sense of the 'truth according to Garp or Joe or Dags or LMNO or whoever' arise contradictions about reality then what? All are true and none false? I know this presents a dichotomy but it's about nothing specific where other options may present themselves such as differences of perspective and such.   

Regarding the truth of BIP is it taken at face value? Without much questioning it's underlying assumptions. The first HIP took a look at a dissemination process where it's accepted without question as 'being cool'. Is 'accepted without questioning' what BIP is about? So what could make BIP false or an interpretation of BIP false? If it's nothing much then what does that say?

If each BIP is a personal expression of a persons 'system of thought'. This is what I meant by everything. Everything else can't intrude without being adopted into the schema a person already has. ( the mind can't focus on what it can't clearly see.) So if it's personal then what's outside of one's schema might as well not exist. How does BIP include others when the only walls between us are our windows of perception; so to speak. How can one person say another persons interpretation is BS without resorting to some other philosophy, without saying one philosophy is better than the other? This is more at the part where you say it doesn't conflict from one 'system of thought' to another. Each can accept the concept without contradiction. ( Yet consider their reality as something less than the real thing and just some abstraction that happens to be different from other abstractions; neither being more true or a sort of I can take it or leave it since it's not really real.-heh or something) This mainly towards the 'systems of thought' you've mentioned. So... then is the second HIP ModL of Joe's interpretation of BIP correct then as he sees it with American Idol being his Black Iron Prison? You see where I'm going with this?

Is this the everything is true? Discordian mindflip? If so then yes; anything goes. ie;What happens to people when they die? Whatever they believe will happen. Why are we here? We are here for whatever you think we are here for. It's a philosophy of the whatevers or something? Do I think this is true? Who cares? Right. So anyways... I think eventually I'll get to my point on this one because I can't say it's a simple thing to answer; at least for me.

So far as I can tell none of the above then contradicts the BIP you explain when you say all systems of thought are basically valid. (ie; true) This all of the above here is the longer version of what I meant by 'true'.

I see no mechanism within the BIP framework to weed out the BS from what your telling me? Like what I said above is it BS or not? What standard would you use to know? Is the ModL HIP of Joe's BIP in my last post valid according to BIP. ( ← does that last sentence make an sense )

It even get's worse. When someone like Laz reads BIP and came to his conclusions about it according to his/her/it's system of thought it was railed against; By what mechanism within the BIP's philosophies and such would  Laz understand he had made an error in his reasoning? To say someone has made an error in reasoning requires a standard of truth does it not?

Quote
Quote from: LMNO
Also, what do you consider "the first part"?  There's a lot of different stuff in there. And what doesn't ring true?

just overall it didnt get in depth enough to engage me.

Quote
Yeah, I understand.  The BIP pamphlet was the first thing written, it hasnt been revised since we all started kicking it around.  I think we need a second edition to include stuff from the Wiki, etc.  Maybe someday.

It didn't engage me more specifically because BIP sounded like it was seeking a certain type of target. I didn't feel like I fitted the demographic; so to speak. Like I said earlier most of the BIP specifics didn't ring true with me (specifically) but perhaps I'm somewhat familiar with the target in mind.

Maybe those 'plugged in' and unaware of it.  This is my main source of interest in the project btw. I'd like to one day be a critical thinking mechanic or something like that. You know? Or just be able to reply to something without feeling like I left out way too much. Anyways if you don't ask much on the next reply I'll just let it be. You know I've been gone so long that it's actually pretty good I'm checking it out since I have no clue of much else going on. So my take on BIP is pretty damn blind!-heh Unlike Laz though I found the BIP intriguing and wondered if it could unshackle some minds? Pretty excited at the thought actually. Then RWHN made me wonder if I had possibly missed something and it could apply to me? I still don't know like I said pre-empting this reply; it's a vague possibility I haven't discounted yet.

Well alright LMNO that's it for the edits. Thanks for reading man. I hope I gave you something to consider and if not. I'll keep fishing around.-heh

- Dags

note: The HIP (Humourous Interludes Perhaps) in the earlier post were meant as ideas of mine towards the Lollercaust or whatever if not verbatim just some ideas or something. If they are funny, if not (skip it). I can't tell one way or the other.

note: Laz stuff mentioned here is not a direct verbal assault I assure him if he/she/it read this post. Just a point of interest from recent post I've read about it.

Wherever in there.

note: Bye. Bye.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on May 22, 2007, 01:01:39 pm
I think I'm gonna have to break this up into 3 different replies.

Lemme work on it a bit.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on May 22, 2007, 02:21:20 pm
Reply 1:

I disagree.  If you take my previous reply into account, since your BIP isnt everything, then you can contrast it by mapping out how you decipher the universe, and seeing all the ways in which you dont decode your experiences.

For example, if youre a biology major, try looking at the world through the eyes of a Victorian Poet.  If youre a musician, learn physics.  If you speak English, become fluent in Japanese.  The walls and bars of your cell will soon become apparent.

There is encouragement to explore more domains of knowledge and acquire new skills and talents but the limitations to that could be self-imposed or due to other constraints; some maybe even preferable ones.

Yup.  Nowhere was it said that you should destroy everything in your cell.  In addition, some parts of your cell cant be changed, like the ability of your eye to see only within a narrow range of the light spectrum.

Quote
Consider life with no constraints whatsoever. (might sound nice to some folks) Then consider everyone alive without any constraints whatsoever. (maybe not so nice) Is it a meglomaniac that desires such a life? Limitations ( walls and bars ) if I understand this correctly doesn't sound like such a bad thing for folks like that. Maybe something simplier with no constraints like a person posting 1billion post a day? Why. Desire. No Limitations (walls and bars) Intriguing. Maybe worth more consideration...

Again, dont get into the idea that the BIP is a negative thing.  There is potential for it to be negative, if thats the way your cell is structured.  Think about the Hodge and the Podge, the balance of Order and Disorder.  A cell without walls would imply that there were no filters on the vast amount of sensory data assaulting your nerves. 

The whole point of the BIP, to me, isnt that we should rid ourselves of our limitations, but we should realize that a sizeable amount of those limitations can be changed and improved.  It might be inescapable, but we can mostly choose what to do with it. 

I believe someone, Cain, DJR, or Jenne, came up with a reconstruction/architecture meme/essay.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cain on May 22, 2007, 02:50:24 pm
Actually, you say we cannot change certain aspects....but what about genetic technology/transhumanism?

New discussion possibility?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on May 22, 2007, 03:04:19 pm
Speculative, but maybe.


Since it hasn't happened yet, we won't know what changes it will bring to the psychology of the matter.

Reminds me of the end of 2001.  The book, that is.  Where he spent dozens of pages imagining different alien cultures.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 22, 2007, 03:14:20 pm
as opposed to the film where Kubrick spent dozens of minutes imagining different acid trips
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on May 22, 2007, 03:14:52 pm
Yeah, basically.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on May 22, 2007, 03:55:09 pm
Part 2

Quote from: Dags
So if anyone's reality is validated as being true within the BIP meta-structure (as it were) then basically anything goes!
Quote from: LMNO
You know Im gonna ask you to define truth, right?

Right.

In the context of how I said it; 'true' is anyone's version of reality however they go about validating it. Whereas 'false' normally would be a worldview that is riddled with BS. (noted this is posted on an discordian forum.-heh)

First off, Id make a distinction between a scientific truth and a cultural truth.  A scientific truth holds up no matter what your BIP is shaped like.  Gravity, for instance.

A cultural truth would be the place where peoples BIP overlap.  Please see the diagram below:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v711/Marburger/BIPVenn.jpg)
While each of these four individuals have unique BIPs (identified by color), they all agree/filter the same things (identified in black).

In this way, a cultural truth can be considered more of an agreement, and could easily lead to game rules that solidify these agreements into some sort of law.

Quote
If taken to mean 'truth' then maybe in the sense of the 'truth according to Garp or Joe or Dags or LMNO or whoever' arise contradictions about reality then what? All are true and none false? I know this presents a dichotomy but it's about nothing specific where other options may present themselves such as differences of perspective and such. 

If I understand what you said, when conflicts of truth arise, the first thing that should be done is to figure out what kind of truth youre referring to.  If its scientific, then the answer can possibly be achieved through experiment and observation.

If its cultural, then the conflict might be resolved by assessing the merits of both using parameters such as usefulness, beauty, efficiency, logical cohesion, or lail (entirely according to a specific situation of course).  Often, both ideas can be true, and also exist together (giving you the third option you seemed to be searching for).

Quote
Regarding the truth of BIP is it taken at face value? Without much questioning it's underlying assumptions. The first HIP took a look at a dissemination process where it's accepted without question as 'being cool'. Is 'accepted without questioning' what BIP is about? So what could make BIP false or an interpretation of BIP false? If it's nothing much then what does that say?

THE BIP IS ALWAYS TRUE.


Heh.

Actually, Im just describing a metaphor for an idea about how people process the information they receive.  Its not scientific, so I suppose its more or less cultural.  Can it be false?  I suppose, if you think that your brain processes things differently.  Can there be a false interpretation of the BIP?  Yes, because the BIP contains certain agreed-upon game rules, loose as they may be.  See Sillys and my discussion as an example.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on May 23, 2007, 01:14:27 pm
Next part of response:







For this part, I think Im gonna have to break this down bit by bit.
Quote
If each BIP is a personal expression of a persons 'system of thought'.
Pretty much, yeah.
Quote
Everything else can't intrude without being adopted into the schema a person already has. ( the mind can't focus on what it can't clearly see.)
Experiences are filtered by the BIP, yes.
Quote
So if it's personal then what's outside of one's schema might as well not exist.
No, because a person does not live in isolation.  They live in a society where other people are reacting to experiences differently.  In this way, by perceiving the actions of others experiences, you gain insight into things outside your schema.  When the actions you perceive do not sit well within your filter, you either reject them, or synthesize them.
Quote
How does BIP include others when the only walls between us are our windows of perception; so to speak.
As in the diagram in the last post, BIPs can overlap.  Especially with the biological/scientific truths.  There might be some psychological dissonance, but the underlying actions are similar.
Quote
How can one person say another persons interpretation is BS without resorting to some other philosophy, without saying one philosophy is better than the other?
Why would you want to say one is better than the other in the first place?  However, if you wanted to, you could set up a definition of what better means, and then put both philosophies in a situation to see which achieves that definition more.

Quote
This is more at the part where you say it doesn't conflict from one 'system of thought' to another. Each can accept the concept without contradiction.
It meaning the BIP, I presume.  A Capitalist can accept the BIP as easily as the Marxist, provided they accept their economic ideas as elements of their reality grids, rather than Ultimate Truths.

Quote
( Yet consider their reality as something less than the real thing and just some abstraction that happens to be different from other abstractions; neither being more true or a sort of I can take it or leave it since it's not really real.-heh or something)
Pretty much, although youre playing fast and loose with the definition of truth and real.
Quote
This mainly towards the 'systems of thought' you've mentioned. So... then is the second HIP ModL of Joe's interpretation of BIP correct then as he sees it with American Idol being his Black Iron Prison? You see where I'm going with this?
Can American Idol be Joes entire BIP?  Hell, no.  Hed be insane.  However, theres no reason that American Idol couldnt shape the way you think about things, or affect your perceptions.  Clay Aikens very career is based on that.
Quote
Is this the everything is true? Discordian mindflip? If so then yes; anything goes.
You mean the misquoting of Hassan I Sabbah? Not really.  Remember how I defined social truth: a bunch of people more or less agreeing on something.  Not everything goes, because everything is not agreed upon.  Raping and killing children was part of Ted Bundys BIP.  That didnt make his actions true.
Quote
ie;What happens to people when they die? Whatever they believe will happen.
Meaningless statement, due to lack of evidence.  You can believe something, but that doesnt mean it actually happens anywhere in the Universe except in your own mind.
Quote
Why are we here? We are here for whatever you think we are here for.
Sure.  Just remember, so is everyone else, and you actually have to exist next to them.
Quote
It's a philosophy of the whatevers or something? Do I think this is true? Who cares? Right.
You should care for two reasons: One, because if its not scientifically true, you could die very quickly.  Two, if its not socially true, you could die very quickly.  This is not to say you should conform to the consensus agreement of your society.  It is to say that you should be aware of any repercussions that may arise due to conflicts with social truths.
Quote
So far as I can tell none of the above then contradicts the BIP you explain when you say all systems of thought are basically valid. (ie; true)
Ah.  I see what youre saying.  You understand me too quickly.  To me the BIP does not judge truth.  The BIP does not validate your beliefs.  The BIP does not discern right and wrong.

The BIP is a model that describes how a human being perceives and interprets external stimuli.

 
Quote
I see no mechanism within the BIP framework to weed out the BS from what your telling me?
Thats because this is not the function of the BIP.  You can use structures inside the BIP to make decisions of Truth.
Quote
What standard would you use to know?
I particularly enjoy Maybe Logic, but thats just me.
Quote
Is the ModL HIP of Joe's BIP in my last post valid according to BIP. ( ← does that last sentence make an sense )
No.

Quote
It even get's worse. When someone like Laz reads BIP and came to his conclusions about it according to his/her/it's system of thought it was railed against; By what mechanism within the BIP's philosophies and such would  Laz understand he had made an error in his reasoning? To say someone has made an error in reasoning requires a standard of truth does it not?
Laz misunderstood the metaphor.  The metaphor of the BIP is another set of game rules describing a certain way of considering the human thought process.  Laz didnt understand the game rules.  His misunderstanding of the BIP metaphor, however, fit in perfectly with the way he understands the world.  So is imperfect knowledge of the BIP is part of his BIP. 

You also seem to be asking if the BIP is self-correcting; that is, if you dont understand the rules of the BIP, will some internal process make you understand it?  No.  The way Laz could have understood he made an error is to listen to our critiques.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Lamanite on May 26, 2007, 04:32:09 pm
All this stuff is interesting but........

Why does the Iron prison have to be black?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Payne on May 26, 2007, 04:42:12 pm
Feel free to install your very own pink floral print shades if you wish.

It's called "Black" for a reason, but you are not yet cleared for that information.

 :lulz:


Incidentally have you read the pamphlet yet?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Lamanite on May 26, 2007, 04:48:33 pm
I read some of it......


I didn't get to this part of thread, I think my question was answered on this page.


I'm just thinking that somthing negative often uses "black" as an adjective. A steel prison is negative in my opinion. But i'll try and refrain from having useless input in the future.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Payne on May 26, 2007, 04:57:20 pm
It's been discussed before, but it's the only suitable metaphor the creators of the theory have at the moment.

Do you have a better one? I don't but I'm 'challenged' that way.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Lamanite on May 26, 2007, 05:10:46 pm
I had to think about it for a minute, and still can't come up nothing better than:


LOOK AT THIS YOU DUMB FUCK


I think that'll capture people's attention and stimulate the imagination a lot better.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Payne on May 26, 2007, 05:13:55 pm
Not very rich in imagery though is it?

The Black Iron Prison is a dark concept, in many ways for some people. The name reflects that, and we can't be accused of false advertising.

If you look elsewhere there are dialogues that suggest alternatives such as The Golden Sphere of Opportunity, but none of them have as much impact as BIP.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Lamanite on May 26, 2007, 05:23:29 pm
well............


A person might look at it for one of  two reasons:

To see what all the dumb fucks are reading.

or

Becoming enraged that they're being called a dumb fuck right to their face.

Perhaps this will create enraged energy, which will covert to fast and furious reading and almost immidiate enlightment, and walk away from the experience as not being such a dumb fuck and to be weary of looking at things that say: hey dumb fuck look at me.

woudln't you agree?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Payne on May 26, 2007, 05:33:14 pm
It's an interesting "hook" viewed from that point of view, but I really don't think people WILL read it because they're enraged at being called a dumb fuck. If that was a strategy that worked, Coca-Cola wouldn't have all the airy-fairy commercials, they'd be saying "Drink Coca-Cola, Bitch", literally.

Also the BIP isn't about enlightenment really. It gives you a tool to view the prision you are in, but it's up to you what you do with that. Enlightenment isn't OUR responsibility, it's the dumb fucks job to do that, or it's meaningless.

So you, object to the use of the word black, becuase of it's negative connotations, right? Isn't finding out that you are "unenlightened" a negative thing? Isn't, perhaps, finding out that you are not thinking for youself and include the negative connotation of having not been thinking for yourself up until that point?

You're getting too caught up in the metaphor itself, at the cost of the actual content of the piece.

Stick around for a while, and you'll find out that Black Iron Prison is a very apt name for something created by the denizens of this board, some of whom are actually teh EVIL.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Lamanite on May 26, 2007, 06:04:09 pm
Enlightenment, viewing an individuals prison, drinking coke, beating off to midget porn. It's all the same to me, with same resuslts. Some sort of gratification from an experience that I might like to engage in again.


but

Black= something bad, at least it seems that way to your average Joe.

The term group-think comes to mind. It carries on a traditon that is imprisoning(is that a word?) in it's self.

example:

Spider-Man wears a black suit, and must break free of his "black" prison.


Someone doesn't realize they're really a dumfuck unless you feel judgments ugly wrath.

Hey Dumfuck.
Who the fuck is calling me a dumfuck?
I did, you're a dumfuck- and this is why......

one of two things happen.

1. Oh shit, I didn't know I was engaged in so much dum fuckery. Thanks for the advice.

2. Why the fuck is this guy telling me i'm a dumfuck, he must be
the dumfuck.

Either way u walk, questioning the whole experience.


Under the current title:

Black Iron Prison,

eh......it's strong, and bold but.............it just doesn't sound interesting, and ultimatley

LOOK AT THIS YOU DUMB FUCK

serves the purpose of pamphlet, and after I viewed a few more pages, I think this only strengthens my argument.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Payne on May 26, 2007, 06:13:58 pm
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=11833.0
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Lamanite on May 26, 2007, 06:15:56 pm
Thanks!
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on May 29, 2007, 01:15:41 pm
Simply put, the adjective "Black" modifies the noun "Iron", not the noun "Prison"

"Black Iron" connotates "cold wrought" iron, which refers to two things:

1. Its use in folkore.
2. Its physical properties.

Please take some time to aquaint yourself with these references.  They may prove enlightening.






[/SSOOKN]
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on May 29, 2007, 01:52:49 pm
And honestly, I don't think the "Black" is as off-putting as you think.  I handed out a bunch of the pamphlets out at my last job right after we finished it.  I can't remember anyone saying anything about the name of it.  In fact, I think it intrigued them.  Okay, sure, them knowing me probably had some impact, however we had a working relationship where we called each other on the carpet on a regular basis so I know they wouldn't have held back. 

Besides, another way to look at it is a kind of Starbuck's Pebble test (if you are familiar with the Principia).  Someone who has any semblance of an open mind is going to look beyond the "Black Iron Prison" name and delve into it.  Others may be put-off by it and not pick it up.  But, realistically, shouldn't we be more interested in the former than the latter?  Unless you have some pie-in-the-sky vision of reaching everybody.  In that case, just change the title to "People", delete the material inside and replace it with celebrity gossip.  Then you'll be golden. 

Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 29, 2007, 02:14:20 pm

however we had a working relationship where we called each other on the carpet


WTF does this expression mean?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on May 29, 2007, 02:27:58 pm
It's pretty much the same idea as calling bullshit.  I think it may be a New England thing.  To be honest I haven't heard it used by anyone outside of Maine so it may be just another one of our silly expressions. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mourning Star on June 02, 2007, 05:58:09 pm
Okay.  For those of us that are having difficulty in locating A4 paper... (8 1/2 x 11 is slightly smaller)  are there other versions available?


Also, I believe the numbers in the assembly guide are muddled...

Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on June 04, 2007, 12:57:03 pm
What's muddled are the order of the pages.  You can't print them out two sided.  You have to print them out 1 sided, and combine them on a photocopier.


Talk to Synaptyx about reformatting, if you want.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on June 04, 2007, 01:30:40 pm
I actually found it mildly symbolic that you had to kind of think outside of the box a bit to assemble the thing.  A little "Trial by Error" and you'll get it. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on June 04, 2007, 01:33:04 pm
i actually just printed it doublesided, folded it in half and thought "fuck it if i'm gonna reorder those pages"
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on June 04, 2007, 01:35:02 pm
Yeah, and really, I don't think the order is that big a deal really, though the "Welcome to the Prison" piece should be first, otherwise it probably doesn't matter all that much. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mourning Star on June 04, 2007, 11:41:50 pm
What's muddled are the order of the pages.  You can't print them out two sided.  You have to print them out 1 sided, and combine them on a photocopier.


Talk to Synaptyx about reformatting, if you want.


hmm, I suppose I could just stop being lazy, cut the thing apart, re assemble it in page maker in a way that allows me to print it double sided on standard 8 1/2 x 11 paper and export it to a PDF and make it available....

Anyone besides me that would want this?

Please check only 1:
[ ] Want
[ ] Do Not Want


...
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Payne on June 04, 2007, 11:45:59 pm
I managed to assemble it. Not saying it was easy, but I managed it.

Don't ask for tips, I can only remember writing some big formula on a blackboard.

Would say, however, making it easier to assemble would probably make me think it more worthwhile printing it and handing it out.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on June 05, 2007, 12:52:49 pm
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on June 05, 2007, 02:00:44 pm
I Czech "Want"
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mourning Star on June 06, 2007, 02:35:24 am
good enough for me.  I've been busy running the rest of the nerds in my "crew" through character generation for a rifts game I'm starting...but when that's done.  I'll get to dissecting and reassembly.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Bogus Magus on June 10, 2007, 09:31:51 am
Okay.  For those of us that are having difficulty in locating A4 paper... (8 1/2 x 11 is slightly smaller)  are there other versions available?

Also, I believe the numbers in the assembly guide are muddled...

The Marquis de Sade, who did not want to be disturbed, went to see
if the door of his cell was tightly shut. It was double-locked from outside,
He closed the inside bolt, obtained through the kindness of the
warden, returned to his table and started once again to write.

I have read this thread, but realise I need to read a lot more (the wiki etc) before daring to comment on content, approach, etc.

First impressions:

The Instructions for Assembly do not match the pages in the version I have downloaded, as Mourning Star said.

I got a nice copy by doing this:

28 & 1      back to back with   2 & 27
26 & 3      back to back with   4 & 25
24 & 5      back to back with   6 & 23
22 & 7      back to back with   8 & 21
20 & 9      back to back with   10 & 19
18 & 11   back to back with   12 & 17
11 & 13   back to back with   14 & 15

I have A4 paper (UK), but I would say the gutter needs moving just a little, because once folded in half the even-numbered pages get too close to the stapled point.

Although I love words, one of the joys of PD still comes from the random mix of type faces, graphics, styles, etc.  All very McLuhan / Burroughs cut-ups, etc.

My opening quote?  A ‘Pataphysical take on ‘prisons’ (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/toby.p/PataCalendar.htm) that somehow reminded me of Leary and his irritating grin (suggested to him by McLoon,  I heard) apparently cheerful, even in jail.
(http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/664/timlearykn9.jpg)

[I found the De Sade quote in an old Evergreen Review (p70), back in the 60s. You can still find paper copies, but Lulu also offers a PDF (http://www.lulu.com/content/690482) at a very reasonable price (for the content you get.]  author: Jean Ferry

Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on June 11, 2007, 01:30:38 pm
I agree with the layout, but we suck at it.  Feel free to take a crack at it, if you have any ideas.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mourning Star on June 11, 2007, 10:54:37 pm
I've been really busy lately with summer classes and running a RIFTS game, but I swear to it that eventually I am going to break the whole BIP into it's basic pages, re-assemble it in pagemaker with a proper gutter and in an order that makes double-sided printing easier and re-PDF that mutha!

I assure thee of it.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cain on June 12, 2007, 01:33:27 pm
We should add new shit, too.

Edition 2?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on June 12, 2007, 01:40:32 pm
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.


Maybe some of the stuff I'm posting at MA would work.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cramulus on June 12, 2007, 03:45:40 pm
I've been mulling over this for a while - my Ego Sickness and Is It Time for a Jailbreak threads are pointing in the following direction---

One idea to expand:

The current BIP pamphlet is "book one" - identifying the Black Iron Prison

Book Two would be an escape guide. On each page we identify one or two bars in our own Black Iron Prisons and give advice on how to slip past them.

They can be broad ideas like
*Politics
*Entertainment
*Routine
*Identity
*language

Or more specific ideas like
*using the phone
*taking an alternate route to work
*watching the Colbert Report every night at 11:30
*cooking
*traffic laws
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on June 12, 2007, 03:47:06 pm
I've been mulling over this for a while - my Ego Sickness and Is It Time for a Jailbreak threads are pointing in the following direction---

One idea to expand:

The current BIP pamphlet is "book one" - identifying the Black Iron Prison

Book Two would be an escape guide. On each page we identify one or two bars in our own Black Iron Prisons and give advice on how to slip past them.

They can be broad ideas like
*Politics
*Entertainment
*Routine
*Identity
*language

Or more specific ideas like
*using the phone
*taking an alternate route to work
*watching the Colbert Report every night at 11:30
*cooking
*traffic laws


i disagree with the point about Stephen Colbert

this is a sacred ritual and certainly not any kind of prison bar.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mourning Star on June 12, 2007, 07:01:34 pm
I've been mulling over this for a while - my Ego Sickness and Is It Time for a Jailbreak threads are pointing in the following direction---

One idea to expand:

The current BIP pamphlet is "book one" - identifying the Black Iron Prison

Book Two would be an escape guide. On each page we identify one or two bars in our own Black Iron Prisons and give advice on how to slip past them.

They can be broad ideas like
*Politics
*Entertainment
*Routine
*Identity
*language

Or more specific ideas like
*using the phone
*taking an alternate route to work
*watching the Colbert Report every night at 11:30
*cooking
*traffic laws


i disagree with the point about Stephen Colbert

this is a sacred ritual and certainly not any kind of prison bar.

as a lifelong iconoclast I must argue FOR the Stephen Colbert item remaining on the list, that which is sacred and becomes ritual is dangerous, and must be destroyed.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Wrecked Fred on June 20, 2007, 06:14:06 pm
- the map is not the territory, but we seek to compile the most effective map to use to navigate the territory

- we investigate obstacles to see whether they are real or illusions

- we investigate the limitations of working as individuals and working as a group

- there seems to be a relationship between freedom and responsibility, so we work to determine what nature of responsibilities a person could possibly have in this context

- we seem to have become comfortable with an approach at discussing new issues that seems to combine Occam's Razor and Maybe Logic
- this approach seems to be effective at getting to the core of any new issues that come up

- we dont claim to 'know' anything 'special', but rather we just seem to have developed a real effective system of deconstructing complex things so that they can be made useful

- the real tie that seems to bind people together here is a burning desire to cut thru the bullshit wherever it may appear
like a anti-bullshit task force


we understand the danger of making claims, so we dont make any of them



other trends:
- occult knowledge
- producing materials loosely related to 'Discordianism'


I don't get it.  What does that mean?  "The map is not the territory" sounds great, but how can I apply that in every day life?  Also, what's all this about "occult studies"?  I was told that you guys were all about waking up, not about living in fantasy worlds.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on June 20, 2007, 06:36:16 pm
heh.


"Map is not the Territory" is one of those buzz phrases that means, "don't treat the conclusions your mind makes about the things your senses perceive as the One and Only True Reality". 

"The menu is not the meal" is another way of saying it.


"occult studies" in these parts means extending the Law of Fives to ridiculous extremes for fun and profit.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Wrecked Fred on June 20, 2007, 06:41:13 pm
heh.


"Map is not the Territory" is one of those buzz phrases that means, "don't treat the conclusions your mind makes about the things your senses perceive as the One and Only True Reality". 

"The menu is not the meal" is another way of saying it.


"occult studies" in these parts means extending the Law of Fives to ridiculous extremes for fun and profit.

This is all about using buzz phrases to describe a culture of soundbites?  Am I reading this right, sir?

Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on June 20, 2007, 06:42:01 pm
Explain "culture of soundbites", please.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Wrecked Fred on June 20, 2007, 06:44:49 pm
Explain "culture of soundbites", please.

Everything we hear on television and radio is prepackaged and shrink wrapped ahead of time.  Everything our friends tell us is something they heard somewhere else.  Everyone gets their religious ideas from a church and their politics from talk radio.  The president doesn't speak to you, a speechwriter does.  Even Mexican wrestling is scripted.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on June 20, 2007, 06:47:31 pm
I think I see what you're getting at, but this goes beyond the culture at large, it seems.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Wrecked Fred on June 20, 2007, 06:49:28 pm
I think I see what you're getting at, but this goes beyond the culture at large, it seems.

I am a blabbering monkey in a sea of blabbering monkeys?   :sad:
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on June 20, 2007, 06:56:41 pm
Hey, me too! 


Basically, a lot of us have been kicking concepts back and forth for quite some time now, so we've fallen into a lot of shorthand about what we mean, like when we talk about the BIP, or the MachineѢ, etc.



Anyway, look at it like this:  My brother is a Scientologist, and recently got married.  I was able to check out some of their literature, and it used a lot of metaphors to describe human thought, which is fine, we all do now and again.

Then problem is, they took these metaphors, and started believing that they were the way things actually worked.

That's what I call "eating the menu": They took their metaphors (menu) as reality (meal).
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Wrecked Fred on June 20, 2007, 06:59:28 pm
Hey, me too! 


Basically, a lot of us have been kicking concepts back and forth for quite some time now, so we've fallen into a lot of shorthand about what we mean, like when we talk about the BIP, or the MachineѢ, etc.



Anyway, look at it like this:  My brother is a Scientologist, and recently got married.  I was able to check out some of their literature, and it used a lot of metaphors to describe human thought, which is fine, we all do now and again.

Then problem is, they took these metaphors, and started believing that they were the way things actually worked.

That's what I call "eating the menu": They took their metaphors (menu) as reality (meal).

I have to think about this for a while.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on June 20, 2007, 07:31:24 pm
Sit down, it aids digestion. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on June 21, 2007, 02:11:31 pm
"Map is not the Territory" is one of those buzz phrases that means, "don't treat the conclusions your mind makes about the things your senses perceive as the One and Only True Reality". 

"The menu is not the meal" is another way of saying it.

it also means for me, that you shouldn't worship the packaging, but take the message and go with it.

examples of eating the menu:
- discordians going on and on about 23
- pastafarians plotting out elaborate theories about pirates
- christians
- .. etc

This is all about using buzz phrases to describe a culture of soundbites?  Am I reading this right, sir?

in short: i don't think the buzz phrases or soundbites will do much good to an outside audience, but they do provide a useful shorthand for discussing some of our more elaborate ideas. it really helps you to prevent going around in the same circles all the time: when, after debate, reaching some sort of conclusion and someone says "oh just like the map and the territory", that means we don't have to discuss the map/territory aspects of the conclusion anymore, but just the way the conclusion differs from the analogy (which are always the interesting bits).

and i was gonna say something else, but i forgot. welcome to the board, btw.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 21, 2007, 02:19:54 pm
and i was gonna say something else, but i forgot. welcome to the board, btw.

I'm pretty sure you were just gonna go on about how mindbendingly awesome SillyCybin is but there's really no need. It's kinda stating the obvious and I get a bit embarassed tbh.

Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on June 21, 2007, 02:27:06 pm
Yeah, the buzzword we use for that is "knobwad."
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mourning Star on June 21, 2007, 02:28:35 pm
Yeah, the buzzword we use for that is "knobwad."

I thought it was "Wanktank"
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on June 21, 2007, 02:31:45 pm
Don't mind these clowns, it's understandable, many people are envious of my awesome  :ninja:
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: That One Guy on July 06, 2007, 05:00:11 pm
Just for fun, this link (http://mihd.net/k7v4w8) will take you to a PDF copy of the Black Iron Prison in page order for ease of reading. Just click "Request Download Link", wait a few seconds till the top right link says "Download File", click that and then voila, BIP!
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 09, 2007, 11:52:22 pm
heh.


"Map is not the Territory" is one of those buzz phrases that means, "don't treat the conclusions your mind makes about the things your senses perceive as the One and Only True Reality". 

"The menu is not the meal" is another way of saying it.


"occult studies" in these parts means extending the Law of Fives to ridiculous extremes for fun and profit.

This is all about using buzz phrases to describe a culture of soundbites?  Am I reading this right, sir?



Think about this. Every word we use is a metaphor. There is no such thing as "Yellow", there is a specific range of light frequencies that humans can see which they (if they are english) semantically link to "Yellow". We can deconstruct pretty much every word in every language in the same way. Words are not things, they're verbal noises that we humans have semantically linked to concepts/ideas/thoughts/experiences. This goes even further, because every concept we talk about (or write about), we do through metaphor. This means that the concept must be translated into metaphor then retranslated from metaphor into thoughts. Further, it's likely to be based on data which was translated by your neurological system into something you thought you understood. With all that translation, we're likely to miss something.

If you use the taxonomic tree as a reference, thats fine. If you hold it as TRUTH, then you've eaten the Menu.
If you look at the bible as a compilation of  philosophy, religion, politics and myth, thats fine. If you believe that it IS THE INERRANT Word Of God!!!!!!! then you just ate the menu and half of the table cloth.

The map of a territory doesn't really show us ALL of the territory. It shows us a general subset of data (based on the type of map). Different maps may show us the same territory, but from different perspectives. For example, if I have three maps of Columbus Ohio, one road map, one topographic map and one of the sewage system, they may display different data. Each map has value in some sense and may be useless in another (the topo map may have no value if we're trying to find the broken sewer line, but the sewer map seems unlikely to direct you to my home). Every philosophy is a map. All of them model the territory using some set of metaphors. Some of them try to make the metaphors as boring as possible, some make the metaphors sound like "Here There Be Dragons!", yet each of them may be able to give us 'some' useful information about the territory (reality).

Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Discord on July 11, 2007, 12:26:48 pm
Its best described as "We all live in our own world"
in best case we created the metaphors and the links we have our own interpretation of each word and therefor, if we get in touch with "another world" meaning another (human) being there is misunderstanding.
Are these metaphors everyone has bars in our bip? Are they necassary?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Forteetu on July 11, 2007, 12:46:13 pm

Are these metaphors everyone has bars in our bip? Are they necassary?

From what I get out of the BIP so far (re-reading a few bits), our language for sure its a part of the cell we're in, to use that analogy. I'm not so sure about the BIP's take on the necessity, like I said, I'm re-reading and digesting to let points sink in and grids form. From my point of view tho ... a necessity indeed. Like with the illusion of seperation, these are games we have agreed to and all of these things are aspects of the game.

When it comes to communication, the game gets real complicated real quick. There's what I want to express here. There is what I would choose to say if we were speaking face to face. There is what I mold that into for the purpose of written text. All three, very different things. There is what you read. There is what you hear in your mind to fill in the gaps of the written text. There is the missing bit you would get from inflection, tone and body language if we were talking face to face. And finally there is how that affects you and your resultant action or feeling. Inefficient, messy, prone to failure and complexity .... isn't it beautiful??
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 11, 2007, 05:46:33 pm
*applause*

Nicely stated forteetu!
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Forteetu on July 12, 2007, 12:16:41 am
*applause*

Nicely stated forteetu!

thnx ... i have rare moments

probably won't happen again for another 500 posts
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: ybom on January 02, 2008, 05:02:10 am
Wakes we monder mhy me haven't used a better language universally (God, English sucks ass) in the last ~100 years.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 02, 2008, 05:08:56 pm
I like English... I think it's a very flexible language.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on January 02, 2008, 05:35:18 pm
it doesnt really matter anyway. english has its flaws but so do all natural languages. cause they're grown organically.

steven pinker makes a good point in his book "language instinct" for why this is a good thing, or why it happens, or at the very least why we're not all speaking a squeaky clean version of esperanto yet (or will ever).
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Wind rider on January 03, 2008, 09:41:24 am
English is very flexible if you know it well enough, but as a second language it must be extremely confusing, just think for a minute and see how many words you know that mean something comepletely different in different contexts.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mourning Star on January 03, 2008, 09:43:55 am
HEY! MY MOTHER DIED FROM DIFFERENT CONTEXTS! FUCK YOU!
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on January 03, 2008, 04:45:12 pm
English is very flexible if you know it well enough, but as a second language it must be extremely confusing, just think for a minute and see how many words you know that mean something comepletely different in different contexts.

1. ambiguity is abundantly present in every natural language

2. english is my second language

3. in fact, most people i know have english as second language and they don't seem terribly confused (most of the time) (and not because of speaking english, anyway)
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: TheLastLump on February 06, 2008, 04:15:47 pm
Personally, I don't think anything should really be changed in the original BIP. It tackles everything it needs to in order- realizing you're imprisoned by your own mind, figuring out how to see the prison itself, realizing that you can change it, and learning how.

I also liked that it had, as a finale, tips on maintaining your identity within the Machine so as not to be eaten by it. I would even go so far as to say it's an inspiorational "Freedom Fighter"-esque manual on survival, but with the goal not being to march on an imaginary "capitol of t3h world" to free everyone, but to show people that THEY are in control and are the ones creating the injutices.

As for the differences between the PD and BIP, I think it's like Lysergic said: PD is more of a "Come to know us better when you're ready, and see what we show you" thing, where BIP is for those who already have read the PD and wish to know more about the Con. Think of the Principia as the Old Testament of the Bible. It's everything you need to know about Eris, Discordia itself, and Life's greatest questions. The BIP is the New Testament, but written as the things it's talking about are actually HAPPENING. It's a guide to doing your part, should you wish to do anything.

Don't get it twisted- I'm not saying it's some fanatical Qu'ran to follow to your death; I'm saying it's something to get you through any persecution you may face when the Government starts declaring people as Threats. And they will, eventually. We've been living in a Communist state all along ^.^

BIP should remain the same on the Principiadiscordia.com site, but if there MUST be a change, it should be in a second, "BIP: Optimized for maximum dispersal!" format (like everyone's been talking about) that can be left in funny places to attract attention.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on February 06, 2008, 04:29:53 pm
Tha above post has been nominated for the 2008 award for "Best First Post, Ever."
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cramulus on February 06, 2008, 04:31:22 pm
seconded
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on February 06, 2008, 04:36:23 pm
::joins the chorus::

I re-read the original BIP the other day.  And I still say we hit it out of the park when we (I mean LMNO) threw that thing together.  Yeah, it's very direct, but I think it's also a varied direct.  I still find myself nodding and thinking "troof" as I'm reading the various writings. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Verbal Mike on February 06, 2008, 09:20:02 pm
Tha above post has been nominated for the 2008 award for "Best First Post, Ever."
Damn newbs, stealing my thunders.
*rofls at himself quietly, and yet maniacally*
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: TheLastLump on February 07, 2008, 01:36:53 am
^.^ Thanks. I got to like the sixth page of this discussion, and everyone was talking about editing it. All of a sudden, I mentally screamed "WAIT!!". It was the version of BIP that I'd read that inspired me to create my own Cabal, and I'd hate to see it go. There's no need to streamline it. It's as potent and useful as it's going to get.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cramulus on February 07, 2008, 03:50:54 am
^.^ Thanks. I got to like the sixth page of this discussion, and everyone was talking about editing it. All of a sudden, I mentally screamed "WAIT!!". It was the version of BIP that I'd read that inspired me to create my own Cabal, and I'd hate to see it go. There's no need to streamline it. It's as potent and useful as it's going to get.

see here's where we differ

I think the BIP is great. I'm the one who edited the v2 pamphlet, so I personally think it's in a great state right now. The v2 edit addressed a lot of the concerns people had come to the forum and reported, so I also think we're pretty much done rehashing it (for now).  But is it as useful as it's going to get? survey says no. Nothing is sacred enough that we shouldn't consider how to improve it.

Out of curiosity, how did you find the BIP pamphlet? And what's this about starting a cabal inspired by it?


Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: TheLastLump on February 07, 2008, 04:42:01 am
Well, I saw the BIP when I got onto the PD website to root around for a page I needed, when I saw there was a new link: The Black Iron Prison. I read it, and I loved it. Aside from a few grammatical errors, there's really nothing "wrong" with it. But yeah, I suppose there could be a bit of refinishing, as well as a bit of extra content.

On MySpace, I started a cabal titled the Silent Cabal- basically, it's a way to co-ordinate fun things like flash mobs and projects from Operation: Mindfuck in a safe and difficult-to-spy-on way. It's hidden, but just message me (I'm The Lump on there) and I'll invite you so you can make sure I'm not being overzealous. I don't want to create some organization or anything; it's just that I believe there will come a time when people with free thought may have to go underground, and the Silent Cabal is a way to let everyone know that we're still alive.

As of right now, there's only one member other than myself, and I'm not really going to be "recruiting" or anything radical like that, but anyone that thinks it's a good idea can join just so contacting them is easier.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Jasper on February 07, 2008, 08:57:10 am
Check out our GASMs.  We should incorporate.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on February 08, 2008, 12:50:25 am
Tha above post has been nominated for the 2008 award for "Best First Post, Ever."

flattery will get you everything ;-)

[/cynical]
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Politician168023 on February 08, 2008, 02:32:38 pm
the map is not the territory
"Today abstraction is no longer that of the map, the double, the mirror, or the concept. Simulation is no longer that of a territory, a referential being or substance. It is the generation by models of a real without origin or reality: A hyperreal. The territory no longer precedes the map, nor does it survive it. It is nevertheless the map that precedes the territory - precession of simulacra - that engenders the territory. "(Baudrillard, 'Simulacres et Simulation', 1994, p. 1)

Referring to electronic media.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Politician168023 on February 08, 2008, 02:53:45 pm
Oh dear, noone is going to like this =(

I don't like the BIP. I think it is forceful, aimed at dipshits and does not include an ounce of subtlety.

I guess its aimed at those who havnt thought at all, unlike the original Principia which is aimed at fairly switched on people.

If you treat people like they are stupid, they will be stupid.

Isn't that how the prison operates anyway?


Maybe it's a good read for those who don't think very much, Ill have to find some of "those people" and show it to them - I'll let you know the results of the experiment.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on February 08, 2008, 02:56:52 pm
i think it's good for anyone who happens to be in the right mental position to latch on to it.

i can understand your concerns, but i can also imagine certain people that immediately resonate with this and get them very interested in the subject matter.

that's why the BIP pamphlet is not supposed to be the only pamphlet.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on February 08, 2008, 02:58:28 pm
Oh dear, noone is going to like this =(

I don't like the BIP. I think it is forceful, aimed at dipshits and does not include an ounce of subtlety.

I guess its aimed at those who havnt thought at all, unlike the original Principia which is aimed at fairly switched on people.

If you treat people like they are stupid, they will be stupid.

Isn't that how the prison operates anyway?


Maybe it's a good read for those who don't think very much, Ill have to find some of "those people" and show it to them - I'll let you know the results of the experiment.


You're not the first and you won't be the last.  It's not for everybody.  Nothing is.  You can lead a horse to water but you can't force them to drink it, but you can slap them around a little bit to make them come to their senses.  

Moreover I don't think it's coming off like the reader is stupid.  Just because someone is smart, intelligent, whatever doesn't mean they aren't close minded.  The BIP is kind of like a crowbar that is just trying to let some daylight in.  The reader is responsible for opening the door the rest of the way, or not, or if they so desire, board it up with planks and nails.  
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Politician168023 on February 08, 2008, 03:14:30 pm
Yes, I see your point about those clever, but closed minded people RWHN. I do however think that much of the stuff in the BIP is "common knowledge" and a clever but closed minded person may need a longer crowbar.

What I mean by this is that clever people are turned on by clever things... if you can con a clever person into believing something, and then reveal they have been conned, preferably by mocking them in some subtle way; they might think "shit, ive just been conned" and do something about it :)


Edit: added some missing punctuation  :lulz:
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Politician168023 on February 08, 2008, 03:20:54 pm
that's why the BIP pamphlet is not supposed to be the only pamphlet.

Would be great to make a few more pamphlets... Of course this would mean making  up some modern stereotypes and then working on their values, and deviously working out what we can say to manipulate their fragile minds =)

w00t, sounds like a great job  :lulz:
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on February 08, 2008, 03:47:55 pm
Pol, what parts do you see as common knowledge?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on February 08, 2008, 04:42:05 pm
Yes, I see your point about those clever, but closed minded people RWHN. I do however think that much of the stuff in the BIP is "common knowledge" and a clever but closed minded person may need a longer crowbar.

What I mean by this is that clever people are turned on by clever things... if you can con a clever person into believing something, and then reveal they have been conned, preferably by mocking them in some subtle way; they might think "shit, ive just been conned" and do something about it :)


Edit: added some missing punctuation  :lulz:

How is the BIP not clever?  I think ECH's writing about widgets is very clever.  I think the opening piece about the Prison is very clever.  I think the piece about Toxicity is very clever.  TGRR's writings are clever, etc., etc.,  One can swing a sledgehammer and still be clever.  Clever doesn't need to be esoteric humor and abstract bullshit. 

To be honest, I think the most effective pieces in the PD were the ones that were most straight-forward.  Nonsense as Salvation, for example, was one of the most straightforward pieces in the whole book, and I think, the most effective at getting its message across.  But I wouldn't say it wasn't clever. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on February 08, 2008, 08:10:34 pm
I think one can be clever and not esoteric, or clever and esoteric, or straightforward and clever or just straightforward.

Much of the BiP feels more straightforward than clever.

That is, in my opinion (and I've only passed it out to a few cabbages) it doesn't have a wit that makes it snazzy. It feels a lot more (to me) like a pulpit. Not that a pulpit isn't effective (obviously it is) but I'm not sure 'clever' in the general use of the term really describes the BiP.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on February 08, 2008, 09:16:10 pm
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.  I see clever defined thusly: -mentally bright; having sharp or quick intelligence; able.

I hope one wouldn't argue that the BIP authors and their writings lacked mental brightness and sharp/quick intelligence.

 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on February 08, 2008, 09:22:34 pm
We would kill a whole buncha motherfuckers.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on February 08, 2008, 11:12:12 pm
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree.  I see clever defined thusly: -mentally bright; having sharp or quick intelligence; able.

I hope one wouldn't argue that the BIP authors and their writings lacked mental brightness and sharp/quick intelligence.

 

Not at all!!!!!

I only meant that the points aren't made in a clever way (clever as in "OH! Heck I didn't see that coming!" not as in "Dur, I are not clever"). They are made in a much more direct way... the BiP states what it states, there's no song, no dance, no package with pretty wrapping... There simply is the BiP.

In my perception anyway.

Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Janvier on February 18, 2008, 12:25:23 pm
First of all let me state that I think it's wonderful a project like this got off the ground, and I love the concept of another good addition to Discordian gospel. I'll also just give the caveat that what I'm about to say are just how BIP looks to me.

That said, I really dislike most of it for two main reasons. Of course, this isn't to say I didn't find any enjoyable or interesting thoughts in it, but it would need a lot of work for me to consider it to be close to the level of the PD.

The first reason for which I dislike BIP is rhetorical: it has terrible ethical appeal. The book constantly tells the me that I am in a prison, that The Machine is controlling me, that I needs to cut himself free and learn. Moreover, everywhere in your writing it is implied that somehow you know more about the big picture than any random person who picks up a copy. One shouldn't make such a supposition, especially not to their reader who they want to engage. Also, if you're going to put words in a reader's mouth make pretty damn sure he actually feels the way you say he feels.

Second, I feel the message is off. Mal-2 would be rolling in his grave if he saw Discordianism could produce something so downbeat. The reason I became a Discordianist and not for example a Christian is that Christianity tells me that if I don't conform to their rules something is wrong with me. It seems to me as if you say that if I don't mind working for The Machine, living in it or accepting it, something is wrong with me. The PD taught me things by making me think in new ways, and it encourages people finding their own truths. BIP tried to tell me what to think. I'm all for helping people grow mentally, but I frown at the use of such depressive imagery that makes people unhappy about who they are now so they are motivated to change.

Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on February 18, 2008, 12:48:46 pm
ok let's go over this once more :)

- the BIP is not intended to convince everybody or appeal to any random person, but has a specific target audience, those who "need" or "can use" it at that moment.
- it is definitely not supposed to be the only discordian text.
- we are not "doing discordianism" to please Mal-2.

but i dont think it would even help if we were to write that in the intro to the BIP pamphlet.

now, for your other statements, which are actually a lot more interesting than BAWWWing about how you don't like the wrapping of the package:

Quote
The reason I became a Discordianist and not for example a Christian is that Christianity tells me that if I don't conform to their rules something is wrong with me. It seems to me as if you say that if I don't mind working for The Machine, living in it or accepting it, something is wrong with me. The PD taught me things by making me think in new ways, and it encourages people finding their own truths.

if the PD didn't tell you there's something wrong with you, read it again :lol:

Quote
BIP tried to tell me what to think.

and so did the PD, it's just that it did it all fluffy and happy and it already happened once

Quote
I'm all for helping people grow mentally, but I frown at the use of such depressive imagery that makes people unhappy about who they are now so they are motivated to change.

lolwhut?

"such depressive imagery"

suddenly when chaos is no longer "nice" and "funny", you start FROWNING? :)

didn't you know that eris is a fucking mean bitch?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Janvier on February 18, 2008, 01:11:02 pm
ok let's go over this once more :)

- the BIP is not intended to convince everybody or appeal to any random person, but has a specific target audience, those who "need" or "can use" it at that moment.
I suppose you are right and I am neither. I just find it hard to imagine you could break out of a mental prison when you keep confronting yourself with how pervasive it is.

Quote
- we are not "doing discordianism" to please Mal-2.
Neither am I obviously, but I certainly do feel that he got Discordianism about just right. I don't have that feeling with BIP.

Quote
if the PD didn't tell you there's something wrong with you, read it again :lol:
I disagree. The PD told me that it's wrong to take anything too seriously. BIP takes itself too seriously.

Quote
lolwhut?

"such depressive imagery"

suddenly when chaos is no longer "nice" and "funny", you start FROWNING? :)

didn't you know that eris is a fucking mean bitch?
She is, but she has never made me feel inadequate.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on February 18, 2008, 01:19:06 pm
The first reason for which I dislike BIP is rhetorical: it has terrible ethical appeal. The book constantly tells the me that I am in a prison, that The Machine is controlling me, that I needs to cut himself free and learn. Moreover, everywhere in your writing it is implied that somehow you know more about the big picture than any random person who picks up a copy. One shouldn't make such a supposition, especially not to their reader who they want to engage. Also, if you're going to put words in a reader's mouth make pretty damn sure he actually feels the way you say he feels.

You've got it all wrong.  It's not that we "know more" it's that we are "more aware" that there IS a bigger picture.  We don't pretend to know what that big picture looks like and if you read the BIP again you will see where we say that in several places.  And as 000 said, there is a specific kind of person the BIP is supposed to appeal to.  Think of it as a Starbucks Pebble test of sorts.  If someone picks it up, reads it, and just thinks it's a preachy, downer, then they clearly need to read it again when they are ready to understand what we are ACTUALLY talking about.  Just like your Hot Topic fan-bois who read the PD thinking it's just a bunch of nyuks needs to check THEIR head. 

Quote
Second, I feel the message is off. Mal-2 would be rolling in his grave if he saw Discordianism could produce something so downbeat. The reason I became a Discordianist and not for example a Christian is that Christianity tells me that if I don't conform to their rules something is wrong with me. It seems to me as if you say that if I don't mind working for The Machine, living in it or accepting it, something is wrong with me. The PD taught me things by making me think in new ways, and it encourages people finding their own truths. BIP tried to tell me what to think. I'm all for helping people grow mentally, but I frown at the use of such depressive imagery that makes people unhappy about who they are now so they are motivated to change.

I honestly don't give a flying fuck what Mal-2 would think about it.  In the PD it is iterated several times that he set this whole thing up for people to take as their own.  And to go off with it as they see fit.  We are just one strain of Discordian thought, which disagrees with other strains, but that doesn't mean we are wrong.  The BIP is meant to be that cold water you slap on your face after a long night of partying.  To sort of wake you up.  It was never our intention to hold hands after the fact. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on February 18, 2008, 01:31:34 pm
You've got it all wrong.
Quoted For Motherfucking UNIVERSAL Troof  :lulz:

I suppose you are right and I am neither. I just find it hard to imagine you could break out of a mental prison when you keep confronting yourself with how pervasive it is.

well you can't break out, that's the point.

the important bit is to become aware of the shape and size of your cell, and try to expand it as far as you like, by breaking bars as you hit them.

it emphasizes how the continous act of breaking out is the important goal to strive for, not the promise of (unattainable) freedom on the "outside".

unless you are seriously determined to become "enlightened" ;-)

Quote
Quote
- we are not "doing discordianism" to please Mal-2.
Neither am I obviously, but I certainly do feel that he got Discordianism about just right. I don't have that feeling with BIP.

and i feel that he was a pothead who got a lot of things very right, but wrote his stuff with other hippies and the corresponding mindset in mind, and there's (thankfully?) not a whole lot of them around anymore these days.

Quote
Quote
if the PD didn't tell you there's something wrong with you, read it again :lol:
I disagree. The PD told me that it's wrong to take anything too seriously. BIP takes itself too seriously.

so the PD did tell you what to think?

also why do you think the BIP pamphlet takes itself too seriously?

Quote
Quote
suddenly when chaos is no longer "nice" and "funny", you start FROWNING? :)

didn't you know that eris is a fucking mean bitch?
She is, but she has never made me feel inadequate.

ok, goddess symbolism aside, what do you mean by that statement?

eris, chaos, discord, strife has never made you feel inadequate? have you been paying attention?

the entire *point* of chaos is that you can never view all of it at once. that's where the false order/disorder dichotomy comes from. look at a thing from one angle, it's ordered, look at it from another angle and it's disordered.

see, i would understand that you think the imagery in the BIP pamphlet is kind of gloomy. that's why i said, it's not for everyone. not everybody likes the same stuff. some like the zany dada in the PD, some see this forced randomness as yet another example of order. that makes sense.

but now it seems you are saying that from a "discordian" point of view, the premise of the BIP is "incorrect" because
- it appears too serious to you
- and it makes you feel inadequate

i think that's a bit odd. cause if anything "too serious" and "making you feel inadequate" is false in your version of discordianism .. well i'll just assume that's not the case.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on February 18, 2008, 01:34:55 pm
Quote
- we are not "doing discordianism" to please Mal-2.
Neither am I obviously, but I certainly do feel that he got Discordianism about just right. I don't have that feeling with BIP.

Then why did he encourage people to become Episkoposes if they felt they had a different interpretation of Discordianism?

Quote
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if the PD didn't tell you there's something wrong with you, read it again :lol:
I disagree. The PD told me that it's wrong to take anything too seriously. BIP takes itself too seriously.

Consider when each were written.  The PD in the 50s, the BIP in the 2006.  I would argue that the situations we find ourselves in 2006 are a bit more serious than tey were in the 50s.  I mean, if you want to sit around and tell jokes and talk about FNORDS and think that's actually going to accomplish anything, knock yourself out.  

Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: barumunk on February 18, 2008, 01:38:42 pm
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if the PD didn't tell you there's something wrong with you, read it again :lol:
I disagree. The PD told me that it's wrong to take anything too seriously. BIP takes itself too seriously.

Well the PD did say that if you can see the machine for what it is, and decide to go about your business anyway then you are a fucking Greyface! ... um sounds like telling someone there's something wrong with them if you ask me.

Its quite strange, I'm relatively new here too, and tis weird how not so long ago I had very similar criticisms of teh BIP. BUT not anymore. I think its kewl its more like a extra communication device, as apposed to a entity of its own. The BIP (and i dont mean to kiss arse (cus of all teh authors here), but its converted far more of the people I know to discordians than the PD on its own.)

its more of a philosophy/perspective of the how the world seems to work, within the discordian context/framework, which the the PD didnt really deliver. (in a relatively instantly digestive form)


bleah, I'm losing my train of thought again.


Stick around Janvier, maybe you'll come round, as I did.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on February 18, 2008, 01:42:18 pm
Stick around Janvier, maybe you'll come round, as I did.

AND BECOME ONE OF UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUS

(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/05136/8cc91428.gif)
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on February 18, 2008, 01:43:59 pm
Honestly, as time goes on the PD, in my opinion, will have less and less impact.  Because the one big mistake Hill and Thornley made when they put the PD together is in how then constructed their message.  Obvioulsy, the philosophies are timeless, but the way they framed it isn't necessarily so.  The 50s humor just doesn't translate very well in 2000.  Oh sure, some people will still get it, but many will be instantly turned off by it.  Think of anyone who hates the Three Stooges and that kind of old-school slapstick humor.  They will wrinkle their noses at the PD and not bother with it.  

This was one of the reasons for the BIP.  An attempt to reach some younger cats who aren't going to get into the old-thyme humor.  
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: barumunk on February 18, 2008, 01:47:10 pm
Honestly, as time goes on the PD, in my opinion, will have less and less impact.  Because the one big mistake Hill and Thornley made when they put the PD together is in how then constructed their message.  Obvioulsy, the philosophies are timeless, but the way they framed it isn't necessarily so.  The 50s humor just doesn't translate very well in 2000.  Oh sure, some people will still get it, but many will be instantly turned off by it.  Think of anyone who hates the Three Stooges and that kind of old-school slapstick humor.  They will wrinkle their noses at the PD and not bother with it. 

This was one of the reasons for the BIP.  An attempt to reach some younger cats who aren't going to get into the old-thyme humor. 

And like I said earlier, it IS working.
Incidentally more so in Emo groups, acts more like frikken wildfire.
... but hey, the more the merrier.

Stick around Janvier, maybe you'll come round, as I did.

AND BECOME ONE OF UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUS

(http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g213/05136/8cc91428.gif)

hahaha mother fucking zombie lords!!  :evilmad:
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Janvier on February 18, 2008, 02:17:05 pm
Pff, so much to respond to...  :lol:
You've got it all wrong.
Quoted For Motherfucking UNIVERSAL Troof  :lulz:

I suppose you are right and I am neither. I just find it hard to imagine you could break out of a mental prison when you keep confronting yourself with how pervasive it is.

well you can't break out, that's the point.

the important bit is to become aware of the shape and size of your cell, and try to expand it as far as you like, by breaking bars as you hit them.

it emphasizes how the continous act of breaking out is the important goal to strive for, not the promise of (unattainable) freedom on the "outside".

unless you are seriously determined to become "enlightened" ;-)
Why is it important to strive to break out? I really don't see it as a prison. Rather, I see it as a grid of reference points I use to make sense (or nonsense) of my universe. I don't want it gone, or at least not until I'm done having fun. Obviously I can change my grid as I see fit, expand it to encompass more perspectives, and I like that. Perhaps I should reread BIP, but it gave me a very negative impression of the prison.

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- we are not "doing discordianism" to please Mal-2.
Neither am I obviously, but I certainly do feel that he got Discordianism about just right. I don't have that feeling with BIP.

and i feel that he was a pothead who got a lot of things very right, but wrote his stuff with other hippies and the corresponding mindset in mind, and there's (thankfully?) not a whole lot of them around anymore these days.
Heh, I'm a pothead too, and though I don't like hippies I am actually quite fond of that mindset.

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if the PD didn't tell you there's something wrong with you, read it again :lol:
I disagree. The PD told me that it's wrong to take anything too seriously. BIP takes itself too seriously.
so the PD did tell you what to think?

also why do you think the BIP pamphlet takes itself too seriously?
In a sense, the PD did. However, since the message is not to take anything seriously, the message itself isn't overly serious. I felt the BIP pamphlet takes itself too seriously because it doesn't offer the same. It says "this is where you are, this is what you should do, full stop".

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suddenly when chaos is no longer "nice" and "funny", you start FROWNING? :)

didn't you know that eris is a fucking mean bitch?
She is, but she has never made me feel inadequate.

ok, goddess symbolism aside, what do you mean by that statement?

eris, chaos, discord, strife has never made you feel inadequate? have you been paying attention?

the entire *point* of chaos is that you can never view all of it at once. that's where the false order/disorder dichotomy comes from. look at a thing from one angle, it's ordered, look at it from another angle and it's disordered.
Why would I feel inadequate for not being able to view all of chaos at once?

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see, i would understand that you think the imagery in the BIP pamphlet is kind of gloomy. that's why i said, it's not for everyone. not everybody likes the same stuff. some like the zany dada in the PD, some see this forced randomness as yet another example of order. that makes sense.

but now it seems you are saying that from a "discordian" point of view, the premise of the BIP is "incorrect" because
- it appears too serious to you
- and it makes you feel inadequate

i think that's a bit odd. cause if anything "too serious" and "making you feel inadequate" is false in your version of discordianism .. well i'll just assume that's not the case.
You're certainly right about this, it's not false and reading my post again I understand . However, I don't want to take myself too seriously or feel inadequate, and I wouldn't want to encourage those things in other people.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Janvier on February 18, 2008, 02:23:12 pm
Honestly, as time goes on the PD, in my opinion, will have less and less impact.  Because the one big mistake Hill and Thornley made when they put the PD together is in how then constructed their message.  Obvioulsy, the philosophies are timeless, but the way they framed it isn't necessarily so.  The 50s humor just doesn't translate very well in 2000.  Oh sure, some people will still get it, but many will be instantly turned off by it.  Think of anyone who hates the Three Stooges and that kind of old-school slapstick humor.  They will wrinkle their noses at the PD and not bother with it. 

This was one of the reasons for the BIP.  An attempt to reach some younger cats who aren't going to get into the old-thyme humor.
I agree with you, though I personally had no problems with the humor. However, BIP has a message that I feel is substantially different than the one in the PD. It's a nice read, but I don't think it can be the updated PD. I understand you aren't going for that either, but it'd be a pity IMO if the ideas of the PD would be lost.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on February 18, 2008, 02:39:37 pm
Honestly, as time goes on the PD, in my opinion, will have less and less impact.  Because the one big mistake Hill and Thornley made when they put the PD together is in how then constructed their message.  Obvioulsy, the philosophies are timeless, but the way they framed it isn't necessarily so.  The 50s humor just doesn't translate very well in 2000.  Oh sure, some people will still get it, but many will be instantly turned off by it.  Think of anyone who hates the Three Stooges and that kind of old-school slapstick humor.  They will wrinkle their noses at the PD and not bother with it. 

This was one of the reasons for the BIP.  An attempt to reach some younger cats who aren't going to get into the old-thyme humor.
I agree with you, though I personally had no problems with the humor. However, BIP has a message that I feel is substantially different than the one in the PD. It's a nice read, but I don't think it can be the updated PD. I understand you aren't going for that either, but it'd be a pity IMO if the ideas of the PD would be lost.

I didn't have a problem with the humor either.  But I'm into that kind of cornball/punny humor.  But I also know that not a lot of people these days are.  Yeah, the BIP message was substantially different.  In a certain respect, it was really written for the time it was written in.  The Bush Presidency has brought us tons of crap to deal with.  Yet, it feels like a majority of Americans are too apathetic to actually want to do anything about it.  They are perfectly happy as long as they still have their American Idol being pumped into their living rooms.  Anyone who lives in the states may have noticed how the Gov't is offering coupons for people who still receive analog signals for their television.  The gov't is really concerned about the public losing their teevees.  I think that is very telling. 

Anyway, I guess, at the time of the writing, we felt like this kind of shit deserved a very straightforward message.  It also needs to be said that all of the authors of the BIP acted independently.  We weren't comparing notes as we wrote.  It just so happened that our messages seemed to coalesce the way they did.  And as you spend time here at PD.COM you'll discover that while we do share a certain sense of comradery, that's about all we share.  We have some very different minds at work here.  That we all came together the way we did, IMO, says we were addressing things that needed to be addressed the way they were addressed. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cramulus on February 18, 2008, 02:44:44 pm
Honestly, as time goes on the PD, in my opinion, will have less and less impact.  Because the one big mistake Hill and Thornley made when they put the PD together is in how then constructed their message.  Obvioulsy, the philosophies are timeless, but the way they framed it isn't necessarily so.  The 50s humor just doesn't translate very well in 2000.  Oh sure, some people will still get it, but many will be instantly turned off by it.  Think of anyone who hates the Three Stooges and that kind of old-school slapstick humor.  They will wrinkle their noses at the PD and not bother with it. 

This was one of the reasons for the BIP.  An attempt to reach some younger cats who aren't going to get into the old-thyme humor.
I agree with you, though I personally had no problems with the humor. However, BIP has a message that I feel is substantially different than the one in the PD. It's a nice read, but I don't think it can be the updated PD. I understand you aren't going for that either, but it'd be a pity IMO if the ideas of the PD would be lost.

Well I don't see how those ideas would be lost. This is just another layer, another strata of Discordian thought. A bit newer. If it creates a tension between itself and the PD I think that's good - it encourages critical thought and introspection.

I think the "jailbreak" mindset is a very useful one. I think that in many ways, comfort is the enemy of self-awareness. The thing about the jailbreak isn't that we're encouraging you to leave everything behind, all the time. The point is to evaluate which bars in your prison are helpful and which you need to escape from.

Look at the Parable of the Gong for example. The guy broke out of his prison, but he's still acting in a robotic way, and that gets him in trouble in the end. (well actually it gets his mentor in trouble) "Black sheep are still sheep" and all that. A lot of us feel like that's one of the "Core Tenets" of Discordja (lol).

Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on February 18, 2008, 02:52:29 pm
Why is it important to strive to break out?

self liberation and reality enhancement? :)

i dunno but it seems to me that discordianism places "freedom" as more important than "happiness".

(freedom and happiness being two important calibrating points in philosophy of ethics)

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I really don't see it as a prison. Rather, I see it as a grid of reference points I use to make sense (or nonsense) of my universe. I don't want it gone, or at least not until I'm done having fun. Obviously I can change my grid as I see fit, expand it to encompass more perspectives, and I like that. Perhaps I should reread BIP, but it gave me a very negative impression of the prison.

see, you can be a cog in the machine, and be perfectly happy, take your soma pills every day, and you never even as much as need to go near the walls of your prison cells. nor do you pay attention to the shadows of the bars, because that's just the way things are supposed to be and you tell yourself everything is fine, afterall, you like it there.

but if you say "obviously i can change my grid as I see fit", this changing is in fact pretty much the same process as we mean by "breaking out". so to word it better for you, it is important to be aware of your grids, and it is a good goal to strive to be as much in control as possible of your grids.

it means the same thing. the reality-grid view is really close to the BIP view.

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so the PD did tell you what to think?

also why do you think the BIP pamphlet takes itself too seriously?
In a sense, the PD did. However, since the message is not to take anything seriously, the message itself isn't overly serious. I felt the BIP pamphlet takes itself too seriously because it doesn't offer the same. It says "this is where you are, this is what you should do, full stop".

nah i think it just tells you, really really loudly, to THINK FOR YOURSELF, SCHMUCK

what is it that you think it tells you what to do?

it's telling you to "break out", right?

what do you think that means? how do you think somebody can accomplish this?

imagine already somebody a slave driver standing next to you with a whip, "BREAK OUT OF YOUR PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS OF REALITY ALREADY" :lol:

see how that doesn't work?

it doesn't really tell you what you need to do. but you just stopped thinking as soon as it seemed it did. you read the pamphlet and think "hohoho this thing is trying to tell me what to do, therefore it must be wrong" and stop there.
while you could also think, "hm this thing is telling me i should break out of a prison, what does that mean? what do they mean by that? how would i go about doing that?" and then realize that the meaning of what it says pretty much corresponds with your ideas about reality grids, you read on and dig to see if it contains any insights that you hadn't thought of yet from the grid-angle.

does it make more sense now?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Faust on February 18, 2008, 02:55:44 pm
Honestly, as time goes on the PD, in my opinion, will have less and less impact.  Because the one big mistake Hill and Thornley made when they put the PD together is in how then constructed their message.  Obvioulsy, the philosophies are timeless, but the way they framed it isn't necessarily so.  The 50s humor just doesn't translate very well in 2000.  Oh sure, some people will still get it, but many will be instantly turned off by it.  Think of anyone who hates the Three Stooges and that kind of old-school slapstick humor.  They will wrinkle their noses at the PD and not bother with it. 

This was one of the reasons for the BIP.  An attempt to reach some younger cats who aren't going to get into the old-thyme humor.
I agree with you, though I personally had no problems with the humor. However, BIP has a message that I feel is substantially different than the one in the PD. It's a nice read, but I don't think it can be the updated PD. I understand you aren't going for that either, but it'd be a pity IMO if the ideas of the PD would be lost.

Well I don't see how those ideas would be lost. This is just another layer, another strata of Discordian thought. A bit newer. If it creates a tension between itself and the PD I think that's good - it encourages critical thought and introspection.

I think the "jailbreak" mindset is a very useful one. I think that in many ways, comfort is the enemy of self-awareness. The thing about the jailbreak isn't that we're encouraging you to leave everything behind, all the time. The point is to evaluate which bars in your prison are helpful and which you need to escape from.

Look at the Parable of the Gong for example. The guy broke out of his prison, but he's still acting in a robotic way, and that gets him in trouble in the end. (well actually it gets his mentor in trouble) "Black sheep are still sheep" and all that. A lot of us feel like that's one of the "Core Tenets" of Discordja (lol).



the parable of the gong is actually my favorite piece, I give it to anyone who seems interested and it has always gone down well.
The actual Jailbreak document has had the most mixed results, some people really dont like it, either out of of feeling uncomfortable, or finding it preachy.

The BIP is definitely not the PD II or a modern age rehash, I think it is more just a different approach to some very similar ideas. The fifties humor may not suit some people but these people may be more suited to the direct approach of the BIP without all the circlejerk'ing jokes
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Janvier on February 18, 2008, 03:05:24 pm
I didn't have a problem with the humor either.  But I'm into that kind of cornball/punny humor.  But I also know that not a lot of people these days are.  Yeah, the BIP message was substantially different.  In a certain respect, it was really written for the time it was written in.  The Bush Presidency has brought us tons of crap to deal with.  Yet, it feels like a majority of Americans are too apathetic to actually want to do anything about it.  They are perfectly happy as long as they still have their American Idol being pumped into their living rooms.  Anyone who lives in the states may have noticed how the Gov't is offering coupons for people who still receive analog signals for their television.  The gov't is really concerned about the public losing their teevees.  I think that is very telling.
I was wondering whether our disagreement is fueled in part by the fact that I don't live in America... I'm a (Czech/)Dutchie.

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Anyway, I guess, at the time of the writing, we felt like this kind of shit deserved a very straightforward message.  It also needs to be said that all of the authors of the BIP acted independently.  We weren't comparing notes as we wrote.  It just so happened that our messages seemed to coalesce the way they did.  And as you spend time here at PD.COM you'll discover that while we do share a certain sense of comradery, that's about all we share.  We have some very different minds at work here.  That we all came together the way we did, IMO, says we were addressing things that needed to be addressed the way they were addressed.
I understand, but by tuning the BIP to this time aren't you basically making the same mistake Mal-2 did? Or don't you see it as a mistake?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Janvier on February 18, 2008, 03:20:04 pm
Why is it important to strive to break out?

self liberation and reality enhancement? :)

i dunno but it seems to me that discordianism places "freedom" as more important than "happiness".

(freedom and happiness being two important calibrating points in philosophy of ethics)
I find very difficult in general to make a choice between those two, but I also don't really have to since to me freedom inevitably leads to "happiness", which is to say not merely the emotion but just a general feeling of being content and at ease.

(Are you a philosophy major by any chance?)
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I really don't see it as a prison. Rather, I see it as a grid of reference points I use to make sense (or nonsense) of my universe. I don't want it gone, or at least not until I'm done having fun. Obviously I can change my grid as I see fit, expand it to encompass more perspectives, and I like that. Perhaps I should reread BIP, but it gave me a very negative impression of the prison.

see, you can be a cog in the machine, and be perfectly happy, take your soma pills every day, and you never even as much as need to go near the walls of your prison cells. nor do you pay attention to the shadows of the bars, because that's just the way things are supposed to be and you tell yourself everything is fine, afterall, you like it there.

but if you say "obviously i can change my grid as I see fit", this changing is in fact pretty much the same process as we mean by "breaking out". so to word it better for you, it is important to be aware of your grids, and it is a good goal to strive to be as much in control as possible of your grids.

it means the same thing. the reality-grid view is really close to the BIP view.
Somewhere in the course of the discussion I realized that as well. However, I'm not concerned with breaking down the walls. I'll definitely give BIP another read though.

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so the PD did tell you what to think?

also why do you think the BIP pamphlet takes itself too seriously?
In a sense, the PD did. However, since the message is not to take anything seriously, the message itself isn't overly serious. I felt the BIP pamphlet takes itself too seriously because it doesn't offer the same. It says "this is where you are, this is what you should do, full stop".

nah i think it just tells you, really really loudly, to THINK FOR YOURSELF, SCHMUCK

what is it that you think it tells you what to do?

it's telling you to "break out", right?

what do you think that means? how do you think somebody can accomplish this?

imagine already somebody a slave driver standing next to you with a whip, "BREAK OUT OF YOUR PRECONCEIVED NOTIONS OF REALITY ALREADY" :lol:

see how that doesn't work?

it doesn't really tell you what you need to do. but you just stopped thinking as soon as it seemed it did. you read the pamphlet and think "hohoho this thing is trying to tell me what to do, therefore it must be wrong" and stop there.
while you could also think, "hm this thing is telling me i should break out of a prison, what does that mean? what do they mean by that? how would i go about doing that?" and then realize that the meaning of what it says pretty much corresponds with your ideas about reality grids, you read on and dig to see if it contains any insights that you hadn't thought of yet from the grid-angle.

does it make more sense now?
It does, but I still disagree  :p
I personally strive for philosophical growth, but I know quite many people who have put forward the following argument:
The way my universe is now I am content and happy, and my goal is to be content and happy in life.
If I learn more I may become malcontent and unhappy.
Therefore they don't feel the need to break out.

I guess the basic point which I disagree with is that one goal in life can somehow be better than another.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on February 18, 2008, 03:35:00 pm
no i'm a Computer Science major, but i have very broad interests and followed a couple of extracurricular courses on Philosophy (also on Information Law and Emotional Intelligence, btw).

but ehm, as far as my opinion goes, one of the points of discordianism is actually actively *shaking loose* the people that volunarily put on blinders and tell themselves they're happy being ignorant.

so why do we do that?

because the blind sheep are the ones that fucking spoil it for everybody else. the people that, very egoistically, say "i don't need to know what's really going on, cause i'm happy in my current state of ignorance" are the ones that give the greyfaces and the machine their power.

and the BIP Pamphlet is just one way of shaking a certain group of people loose, in the hope that they wake the fuck up a littlebit. Operation:Mindfuck is another. the original PD is/was also one.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on February 18, 2008, 03:39:18 pm
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Anyway, I guess, at the time of the writing, we felt like this kind of shit deserved a very straightforward message.  It also needs to be said that all of the authors of the BIP acted independently.  We weren't comparing notes as we wrote.  It just so happened that our messages seemed to coalesce the way they did.  And as you spend time here at PD.COM you'll discover that while we do share a certain sense of comradery, that's about all we share.  We have some very different minds at work here.  That we all came together the way we did, IMO, says we were addressing things that needed to be addressed the way they were addressed.
I understand, but by tuning the BIP to this time aren't you basically making the same mistake Mal-2 did? Or don't you see it as a mistake?

Not really.  The PD is a foundational book.  It more or less established the idea of Discordianism.  In that sense, it is more important to be "timeless."  I don't see the BIP being that kind of work.  I think it is more strictly meant for the time it was written in.  Perhaps the authors of the PD were thinking the same thing.  So I suppose, if the BIP had any sort of relevance in the world of Discordianism 30 years from now that criticism would be valid.  However, I don't think the BIP has that kind of staying power, and I'm not sure it should.  As time goes on, and different problems arise, the message does need to be changed to suit those times.  
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: barumunk on February 18, 2008, 03:44:01 pm
I didn't have a problem with the humor either.  But I'm into that kind of cornball/punny humor.  But I also know that not a lot of people these days are.  Yeah, the BIP message was substantially different.  In a certain respect, it was really written for the time it was written in.  The Bush Presidency has brought us tons of crap to deal with.  Yet, it feels like a majority of Americans are too apathetic to actually want to do anything about it.  They are perfectly happy as long as they still have their American Idol being pumped into their living rooms.  Anyone who lives in the states may have noticed how the Gov't is offering coupons for people who still receive analog signals for their television.  The gov't is really concerned about the public losing their teevees.  I think that is very telling.
I was wondering whether our disagreement is fueled in part by the fact that I don't live in America... I'm a (Czech/)Dutchie.


um No I dont think thats It, Im from South Africa and I still disagree with you :D
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on February 18, 2008, 03:49:13 pm
It really just boils down to different strokes from different folks.  It's right for some, wrong for others, relevent for some, irrelevant for others, right and releveant for others, wrong and irrelevant for others, right and irrelevant for others, wrong and relevant, so on and so on. 

Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on February 18, 2008, 03:53:21 pm
I was wondering whether our disagreement is fueled in part by the fact that I don't live in America... I'm a (Czech/)Dutchie.

ha another dutch! do you live in NL now? which part?

(*maakt het geheime hollandse illuminati handgebaar*)
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Verbal Mike on February 18, 2008, 04:11:27 pm
Why is it important to strive to break out? I really don't see it as a prison. Rather, I see it as a grid of reference points I use to make sense (or nonsense) of my universe. I don't want it gone, or at least not until I'm done having fun. Obviously I can change my grid as I see fit, expand it to encompass more perspectives, and I like that.
I think one of the main points of BIP is that very often, the grids we use are not the grids we would really choose. One of those is the chunk of grid that says "some grids are better than others", which makes us often settle on the first reality tunnel that happens to pique our interest. More often than not, the first reality tunnel you bump into will be one that other people have settled in. This whole thing has crazy sinergistic power that basically means most of what most people believe is likelier not to be the grid that you would choose, just the grid that others happened to choose. As a pothead I think you can understand the concept of entering a very different state of mind, altering your own reality - in a way, this is what BIP caused me to do. It has made me re-examine facets of my personality/Prison/grids that I had always managed to convince myself I hang on to for good reasons.
I wouldn't say this has made me happier, but I'd lie if I'd say I wasn't glad this happened, if I'd say I wasn't grateful for this pamphlet.
That said, no one piece of scripture will resonate the same with all who read it. If you don't like the pamphlet and its metaphors, go find ones you like better.

(I also wish the pamphlet were more light-hearted, by the way. It just may not be a realistic thing to wish.)
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on February 18, 2008, 04:49:05 pm
I think that there are some really useful aspects to the BiP and I've come around to seeing it as a different model (similar in some respects to the 8-Circuit grid) to use when discussing these concepts. That being said, I still think the overall feel is one of pessimism rather than optimism (as the PD was). Sorta like Discordianism, through the glass darkly.

I haven't yet figured out why I think this (particularly since its authors continue to insist its not pessimistic). I've considered the following so far:

1. The BiP metaphor makes a judgment about the individuals perceptions. THEY are in Prison. We ALL are in Prison. In contrast, the Reality Tunnel metaphor used by Leary and Wilson doesn't make a judgment about the individuals perception, it simply identifies it as a tunnel, obviously a larger tunnel is preferential to a smaller one, but there's no concept of being entirely trapped or that the trap is bad/wrong/evil (concepts which tend to go along with prison). As LMNO said the other day if you think of being born as being a fresh prisoner, just getting processed... the metaphor can look pretty depressing, pretty quickly.

2. The style feels very much like the style of an Anarchist, or Libertarian, or Socialist pamphlet. That is, it feels like a series of essays directed AT the reader, from a position of Knowledge, held by the author. The PD reads like a series of sense and nonsense, which the reader may or may not get something useful out of... the concluding message may be perceived differently by each person reading it... The BiP on the other hand, feels (to me) like a direct message stated directly... that may be its intent, but it seems to lend to a more pessimistic feel IMO.

3. I may simply be more comfortable with other metaphors. Several of us have discussed BiP vs Reality tunnels/Grids and, for me personally, I think its less clear than those metaphors. Using the old metaphors we can talk specifically about changes in perception/how we see data (ie Reality Tunnels) and we can talk specifically about changes in ourselves/how we process data (ie. circuit re-imprinting). In the BiP, this feels a bit muddled to me. I think this led to my initial lackluster impression of the metaphor as well.

At least these are things that I've identified about my perceptions of the BiP. That being said,. it seems to be resonating with some people, so I doubt it matters much if it necessarily resonates with me ;-)

I think this issue would probably be moot if we were producing more pamphlets... if the BiP was one among many different pamphlets with different map/model/perspectives then I don't think it would be analyzed quite as stringently. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 18, 2008, 09:14:57 pm
The BIP is just a companion volume, a different approach. It works for some people; those are the people it's for. If it doesn't work for you but the PD did, there you go.

Ideally, there SHOULD be many texts, and many approaches... I don't know if I have any essential insight to contribute to a new text, but I'm willing to give it a shot. Why not? Why don't we pick a week in which each of us with an interest in contributing will write or draw something, and the result will be the next companion text? Maybe the theme should be writing from the inside; the subjective meaning and metaphor of Discord.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Thelaughingman421 on February 19, 2008, 02:04:18 pm
Multiple texts might cause people to misconstrue the true meaning behind the whole thing, though. However, multiple texts might also cause Them to think theres more than just us think-for-yourselfers out there. Having everyone contribute matierial(sp?) on some given day would be a good idea to create reams of new propaganda. I'm far too blunt to be insightful and philosophical, though. Or maybe i'm just being self-deprecating again?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on February 19, 2008, 02:17:17 pm
Multiple texts might cause people to misconstrue the true meaning behind the whole thing, though. However, multiple texts might also cause Them to think theres more than just us think-for-yourselfers out there. Having everyone contribute matierial(sp?) on some given day would be a good idea to create reams of new propaganda. I'm far too blunt to be insightful and philosophical, though. Or maybe i'm just being self-deprecating again?

Multiple texts may also be seen as multiple maps of the territory. Every map might have useful information on it and there might be information about the territory that is unique to each map. Besides, what is this "true meaning" of which you speak? ;-)
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on February 19, 2008, 02:30:11 pm
Well, part of the idea with the pamphlets, flyers, etc., is to get them to come here.  Many have the pd.com and poee urls on them.  Then, if they are really miscontruing things, we can set them straight.  Besides, in the end, the more people questioning the better.  We don't pretend to know the answers, we just know what questions to ask. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on February 19, 2008, 03:31:14 pm
Multiple texts might cause people to misconstrue the true meaning behind the whole thing, though.

please tell us what this true meaning is you speak of. we shall try to make sure our future writings focus on this exclusively.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cain on February 19, 2008, 04:01:41 pm
Multiple texts take into account black swans, however.  Especially if the focus is slightly different,we have a greater chance of getting whatever message we want across.

In bandwidth terms, society is growing at an extraordinary rate.  But human attention spans are the same as they always are.  Taking up more of the media bandwidth increases a chance of the messages we convey being seen.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on February 19, 2008, 04:31:27 pm
1) The cover of BIP says, "Discordia Revisited", not "The Principia Discordia part 2: Electric Boogaloo".  As far as I understand it, we wen't trying to rewrite the PD, we were going a bit further in-depth about the Reality Filter concepts, and tuning into the dark, gallows-humor style that PD.com seems to enjoy.  I think there are some parts of the BIP that are pretty funny.

2) Page 14:

Quote from: BIP Pamphlet
Okay, big guy, you say, So whats really out there, if youre so smart? I have to tell you I dont know. I have the same blinders that you do. I live in the same kind of box.


But I will say one thing. My saying I dont know doesnt mean, I dont know, and I dont care, because theres no way to escape the biology of my sense. I say, I dont know, but I want to find out. I want to try and see and feel as much as I can, I dont want to take somebodys word for it, I want to keep exploring, and figuring shit out. I want to walk out of my Prison Cell, even if I just end up in another one. Im not content only seeing a fraction of whats out there.


Because hey, who knows what kind of fun Im missing?




Please explain how this could sound pessimistic and depressing.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on February 19, 2008, 05:45:55 pm
Multiple texts.

Multiple interpretations.

DISCORD.









Get it?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on February 19, 2008, 06:00:15 pm
I get it.

Let's do it.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Hoopla on February 19, 2008, 06:37:20 pm
I think it would be better if every single Discordian text had several versions floating about.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on February 19, 2008, 08:17:27 pm
I think it would be better if every single Discordian text had several versions floating about.

I agree, and I think we already have that to some extent (but we want/need MOAR)

I think I have stated once before why I think the multi-directional approach is good, even necessary. If we really want people's attention, we need to set up a kind of memetic crossfire. This is why KYFMS is important: it's not because of some bullshit "ofuk lookout the Greyface patrol is gonna get you," it's because if you are pegged by everyone you know as the source of the weirdness, it ruins the psychological effect of seeing Discordian stuff coming at you from all directions.


Thought: I think the story of Greyface needs to be spread among the public, perhaps as part of an already-existing GASM. We use the term all the time because we have a fairly common understanding of its meaning, and it's used in a lot of Discordian literature, but many of the people we are trying to reach might miss the point entirely because they don't know wtf a "Greyface" is, or why the hell there are so many pamphlets lying around denouncing cabbages.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Hoopla on February 19, 2008, 08:28:00 pm
Don't forget:  All Greyfaces are Cabbages, but all Cabbages are not necessarily Greyfaces.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on February 19, 2008, 08:30:49 pm
'Xactly. But the hoi polloi are under the misguided notion that cabbages are something you eat with corned beef.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Hoopla on February 19, 2008, 08:47:29 pm
Savages.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Thelaughingman421 on February 19, 2008, 11:16:12 pm
I think it would be better if every single Discordian text had several versions floating about.

I agree, and I think we already have that to some extent (but we want/need MOAR)

I think I have stated once before why I think the multi-directional approach is good, even necessary. If we really want people's attention, we need to set up a kind of memetic crossfire. This is why KYFMS is important: it's not because of some bullshit "ofuk lookout the Greyface patrol is gonna get you," it's because if you are pegged by everyone you know as the source of the weirdness, it ruins the psychological effect of seeing Discordian stuff coming at you from all directions.


Thought: I think the story of Greyface needs to be spread among the public, perhaps as part of an already-existing GASM. We use the term all the time because we have a fairly common understanding of its meaning, and it's used in a lot of Discordian literature, but many of the people we are trying to reach might miss the point entirely because they don't know wtf a "Greyface" is, or why the hell there are so many pamphlets lying around denouncing cabbages.

Well, if people actually bothered to read things, they'd understand. At least, maybe they'd look it up on Wikipedia or something. Releasing the tale of Greyface into public attention would at least show people that taking things so seriously is such a problem.

Also, what if we just dropped the cabbage metaphor? Or would that make things even more difficult then they already are?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Janvier on February 19, 2008, 11:28:28 pm
I think that there are some really useful aspects to the BiP and I've come around to seeing it as a different model (similar in some respects to the 8-Circuit grid) to use when discussing these concepts. That being said, I still think the overall feel is one of pessimism rather than optimism (as the PD was). Sorta like Discordianism, through the glass darkly.

I haven't yet figured out why I think this (particularly since its authors continue to insist its not pessimistic). I've considered the following so far:

1. The BiP metaphor makes a judgment about the individuals perceptions. THEY are in Prison. We ALL are in Prison. In contrast, the Reality Tunnel metaphor used by Leary and Wilson doesn't make a judgment about the individuals perception, it simply identifies it as a tunnel, obviously a larger tunnel is preferential to a smaller one, but there's no concept of being entirely trapped or that the trap is bad/wrong/evil (concepts which tend to go along with prison). As LMNO said the other day if you think of being born as being a fresh prisoner, just getting processed... the metaphor can look pretty depressing, pretty quickly.

2. The style feels very much like the style of an Anarchist, or Libertarian, or Socialist pamphlet. That is, it feels like a series of essays directed AT the reader, from a position of Knowledge, held by the author. The PD reads like a series of sense and nonsense, which the reader may or may not get something useful out of... the concluding message may be perceived differently by each person reading it... The BiP on the other hand, feels (to me) like a direct message stated directly... that may be its intent, but it seems to lend to a more pessimistic feel IMO.

3. I may simply be more comfortable with other metaphors. Several of us have discussed BiP vs Reality tunnels/Grids and, for me personally, I think its less clear than those metaphors. Using the old metaphors we can talk specifically about changes in perception/how we see data (ie Reality Tunnels) and we can talk specifically about changes in ourselves/how we process data (ie. circuit re-imprinting). In the BiP, this feels a bit muddled to me. I think this led to my initial lackluster impression of the metaphor as well.

At least these are things that I've identified about my perceptions of the BiP. That being said,. it seems to be resonating with some people, so I doubt it matters much if it necessarily resonates with me ;-)

I think this issue would probably be moot if we were producing more pamphlets... if the BiP was one among many different pamphlets with different map/model/perspectives then I don't think it would be analyzed quite as stringently. 

What he said. This is basically the way I feel in a far clearer way than I've been able to convey :P

But anyway, I do feel as if I have taken in a part of the message of the BIP, in that I'm reminded that everything in a sense merits questioning. I'm also very much for the idea of more pamphlets. I know I'm new around here but if you don't mind I'd post something for you to consider something later this week. As for the story of Greyface, I think I'll make some flyer to circulate on my university.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Verbal Mike on February 19, 2008, 11:35:10 pm
You don't have to post something for anyone to consider. Just post it, and when someone is looking for stuff for a pamphlet, why, they might just choose your piece for inclusion, if it fits.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cramulus on February 19, 2008, 11:45:17 pm
by all means, post some stuff!

we've always wanted to have a zillion pamphlets like the BIP, but we're limited in our effort and resources. And have you ever tried to motivate a bunch of Discordians to all do the same thing? It's haaard! The best method is to throw a snowball and hope it turns into an avalanche. If it doesn't work, keep throwing.

And if you make flyers and post them, I highly highly encourage you to take a picture of it, upload it to flickr, and tag it "postergasm".  :mrgreen:

Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on February 20, 2008, 05:30:37 am
Well, part of the idea with the pamphlets, flyers, etc., is to get them to come here.  Many have the pd.com and poee urls on them.  Then, if they are really miscontruing things, we can set them straight.  Besides, in the end, the more people questioning the better.  We don't pretend to know the answers, we just know what questions to ask. 

Or perhaps they will discover that we are misconstruing things, and set US straight.

Hilarity ensues.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on February 20, 2008, 01:57:19 pm
What's Hillary got to do with this?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Politician168023 on February 29, 2008, 05:17:45 pm
Quote
I was wondering whether our disagreement is fueled in part by the fact that I don't live in America... I'm a (Czech/)Dutchie.
lol I'm European too, maybe you are on to something ;) j/k
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Thelaughingman421 on March 04, 2008, 02:05:02 pm
Multiple texts might cause people to misconstrue the true meaning behind the whole thing, though.

please tell us what this true meaning is you speak of. we shall try to make sure our future writings focus on this exclusively.

No one knows the True meaning.  we're using truth to find Truth....

That sounded alot better in my head than it looks here....
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: TheLastLump on April 07, 2008, 01:20:27 pm
I think the best way to say it is, "Everyone knows truth. truth is what you make of it. However, NOT everyone wants to find Truth.Truth is inconvenient. Truth is depressing. Truth requires work. Truth is 2 c00l ph0r ewe."

We all make our own Gods. We all walk our own way. But none of us save a solemn few have ever tried to show us a better way.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Planeswalker on July 01, 2008, 12:15:04 am
[...]
We all make our own Gods. We all walk our own way. But none of us save a solemn few have ever tried to show us a better way.

We all are our own Gods. We all want to walk on a way...
A 'better' way can only be found through comparison and applying some rather subjective rating: and as long as you don't have any real idea about the way you are taking into consideration there will be no chance to actually KNOW which one is better... And even similar ways are own ways in their own way, but I sway off. Of course we can give rough estimates and rate different ways filtered through a table of priorities and earlier experiences; t ex survival will always be way up there: with death being rather terminal and all.

Now my head is just drifting off so I will leave it like that. Skl!
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Janvier on September 09, 2008, 07:46:01 am
Well, part of the idea with the pamphlets, flyers, etc., is to get them to come here.  Many have the pd.com and poee urls on them.  Then, if they are really miscontruing things, we can set them straight.  Besides, in the end, the more people questioning the better.  We don't pretend to know the answers, we just know what questions to ask. 

Or perhaps they will discover that we are misconstruing things, and set US straight.

Hilarity ensues.

This.

Which is to say...
PRISON BREAK BITCHES!
THE LUNATICS HAVE TAKEN OVER THE ASYLUM!
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on September 09, 2008, 11:56:59 am
Mind the rats. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Janvier on September 09, 2008, 12:36:18 pm
How do I get into HIMEOBS? :B
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on September 09, 2008, 02:05:00 pm
Into what?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mourning Star on September 09, 2008, 03:18:59 pm
What's a High Mobs?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on September 09, 2008, 03:27:13 pm
Gangsters living in Denver?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mourning Star on September 09, 2008, 03:36:14 pm
Gangsters living in Denver?
:rimshot:
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Payne on September 09, 2008, 03:38:37 pm
I was just coming back to this thread to post that.

Took me a minute to figure it out.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Janvier on September 10, 2008, 01:36:32 am
I was just coming back to this thread to post that.

Took me a minute to figure it out.
Then I think you are up to speed.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on September 10, 2008, 10:33:59 am
I was just coming back to this thread to post that.

Took me a minute to figure it out.
Then I think you are up to speed.

Shouldn't you be taking your daily Jenkem hit right about now?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: OPTIMUS PINECONE on October 29, 2008, 07:38:09 pm
You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, adult material, or otherwise in violation of any International or United States Federal law. You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless you own the copyright or you have written consent from the owner of the copyrighted material.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cramulus on October 29, 2008, 07:49:25 pm
yeah, that's very strongly enforced  :lulz:
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on October 29, 2008, 07:51:29 pm
And if you want the other end of that spectrum, go check out the Steve Jackson Games forums. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 29, 2008, 11:29:47 pm
You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, adult material, or otherwise in violation of any International or United States Federal law. You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless you own the copyright or you have written consent from the owner of the copyrighted material.

I laughed, I cried, it moved me.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on October 30, 2008, 02:33:47 am
You agree, through your use of this forum, that you will not post any material which is false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, adult material, or otherwise in violation of any International or United States Federal law. You also agree not to post any copyrighted material unless you own the copyright or you have written consent from the owner of the copyrighted material.

I laughed, I cried, it moved me.

I laughed, I cried, it moved my bowels.

...brb :oops:
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: OPTIMUS PINECONE on October 30, 2008, 07:10:55 pm
Without Financial Support, I May Shut Down.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 30, 2008, 09:00:31 pm
Without Financial Support, I May Shut Down.

Let's hope so.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Tom O Bedlam on April 24, 2009, 05:50:01 am
Tom enjoys this section most
for games are Toms delight.
If Tom could make a night of play
then Tom would play all night.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on April 24, 2009, 11:04:23 am
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i312/P3nT4gR4m/tactical_facepalm.jpg)
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on April 24, 2009, 12:39:57 pm
(http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i312/P3nT4gR4m/tactical_facepalm.jpg)

OPHUK.


That's brilliant.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 25, 2009, 05:28:54 am
LMNO, LHX, RWHN?  Care to comment?

I will.  This is the section in which, should you disagree with people and poop on their mental territory, they will then accuse you of "eating the menu" and tell you "the map is not the territory".  Should you have this happen, simply disregard said poster forever, as they have only that set of stock answers to defend their intellectual territory in any given debate, and will use it to "counter" any and ALL arguments you may be so foolish as to waste time typing out. 

Then you'll go hang out in Apple Talk, like everyone else, leaving the 6-7 people down here to choke to death on a fog of meaningless philosophical jargon of their own making.

The end.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on June 25, 2009, 02:43:35 pm
Ouch!
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 26, 2009, 12:56:53 am
Ouch!

I really need to do something about my Grudge Book.  It's as big as the damn tax code.

But seriously, that's why I stopped posting in this section, for the most part.  It basically turned into a big steaming pile of dogmatism.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on June 26, 2009, 04:16:49 pm
Well, that's just, like, your subjective opinion.

:insert 7500 words of blather:
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 26, 2009, 10:52:45 pm
Well, that's just, like, your subjective opinion.

:insert 7500 words of blather:

EATING TEH MENU, MUCH? 

 :hosrie:
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cain on June 26, 2009, 10:54:38 pm
 :lulz:
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on June 29, 2009, 07:28:36 pm
I haven't posted here much anymore because I don't have any more good ideas to contribute, assuming I ever had any. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on June 29, 2009, 07:33:26 pm
I remember when I posted something in here long ago and everyone was like "What the hell this place has been dead for ages wtf r u doin posting in here?"
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2009, 09:52:10 pm
I remember when I posted something in here long ago and everyone was like "What the hell this place has been dead for ages wtf r u doin posting in here?"

I remember when I posted something in here long ago and everyone (well, 2 people) were like "Get off my ideological toes WTF is wrong with you eat the menu much the map is not the territory jargon jargon chest-beating jargon jargon don't make me think urp hork puke".
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Caliginos Gnosticos on October 05, 2009, 08:48:37 pm
I remember when I posted something in here long ago and everyone was like "What the hell this place has been dead for ages wtf r u doin posting in here?"

I remember when I posted something in here long ago and everyone (well, 2 people) were like "Get off my ideological toes WTF is wrong with you eat the menu much the map is not the territory jargon jargon chest-beating jargon jargon don't make me think urp hork puke".

I remember when I thought about posting something in here but didn't. It makes for a much less interesting story than either of yours.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on October 05, 2009, 09:17:42 pm
I remember when I posted something in here long ago and everyone was like "What the hell this place has been dead for ages wtf r u doin posting in here?"

I remember when I posted something in here long ago and everyone (well, 2 people) were like "Get off my ideological toes WTF is wrong with you eat the menu much the map is not the territory jargon jargon chest-beating jargon jargon don't make me think urp hork puke".

I remember when I thought about posting something in here but didn't. It makes for a much less interesting story than either of yours.

WAY TO EAT THE MENU!

:lol:
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mourning Star on October 06, 2009, 07:22:09 am
I remember this one time when a clown...wait, this isn't group therapy? HOW DID YOU PEOPLE GET IN MY TV?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on October 06, 2009, 01:26:47 pm
INTERVENTION!
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Caliginos Gnosticos on October 06, 2009, 07:02:09 pm
I remember this one time when a clown...wait, this isn't group therapy? HOW DID YOU PEOPLE GET IN MY TV?


We secretly replaced your TV with Folger's Crystals. We didn't think you'd notice.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on October 06, 2009, 09:41:49 pm
I remember this one time when a clown...wait, this isn't group therapy? HOW DID YOU PEOPLE GET IN MY TV?


We secretly replaced your TV with Folger's Crystals. We didn't think you'd notice.

For no reason at all:
http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Folgers_Crystals
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: BadBeast on May 25, 2010, 07:28:57 pm
This is a tough thing to summarize in clear simple terms, but lemme give it a shot.

See if I can shoot some darts here - feel free to edit/refine/critic:

There seems to be a few things that we do here:

- the map is not the territory, but we seek to compile the most effective map to use to navigate the territory

- we investigate obstacles to see whether they are real or illusions

- we investigate the limitations of working as individuals and working as a group

- there seems to be a relationship between freedom and responsibility, so we work to determine what nature of responsibilities a person could possibly have in this context

- we seem to have become comfortable with an approach at discussing new issues that seems to combine Occam's Razor and Maybe Logic
- this approach seems to be effective at getting to the core of any new issues that come up

- we dont claim to 'know' anything 'special', but rather we just seem to have developed a real effective system of deconstructing complex things so that they can be made useful

- the real tie that seems to bind people together here is a burning desire to cut thru the bullshit wherever it may appear
like a anti-bullshit task force





im gonna post this and then re-read it later to see how much of it is bullshit



But none of us are above occasionally using this, the enemy's primary weapon
against him!

edit; (Or at least, I'm not)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1NK85Z_uiU
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Felix on May 16, 2011, 08:08:21 am
Alright, I'm going to approach this from an organizational perspective and leave the philosophy to LMNO and LHX as they are much more adept at describing those things than I am.

The Black Iron Prison was/is an effort to revisit Discordia in written form.  The general consensus, if it can be called that, was that while the original Principia Discordia holds important messages and philosophies, we wondered if some of the humor and language might be dated and lost on a younger generation of Discordians.  Also, we are all egotistical blowhards who like to see our thoughts in print.   :-D

So, we discussed ideas, memes, philosophies, etc., then we all started writing.  The first result was The Black Iron Prison: Discordia Revisited.  Click here (http://poee.co.uk/doc_files/bip-a4.pdf) to download it and read it if you haven't already.  Plans were made while this first pamphlet was being put together to produce more pamphlets, we even had titles like "Lollercaust" which would have been a more "humorous" effort with more modern humor infused into the writings.  Of course, we all have lives, jobs, etc. so things did stall a bit.  And then came the pd.com crash...

...so during the downtime a new message board was created where we could continue to discuss more ideas, philosophies, memes, definitions, deconstructions, so on and so forth.  When pd.com came back up for good, and was under new management, the effort was moved back here.  (of course the Black Iron Prison Forum crash kind of turned that into a necessity).

And so that is where we are today.  That is the logistics of it.  Again, LMNO and LHX can fill in the philosophical details and other things I'm sure I missed.  Hope this is of some benefit.  I encourage n00bs, lurkers, etc. to download the pamphlet and read it.  Share it with their friends and family.  And then, join the fray!

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but your download is 404.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on May 16, 2011, 01:24:24 pm
You can download the revised version here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/25101030/The-Black-Iron-Prison

Dunno if the original exists anymore.  If it does, we really should get it back up on the wiki, even if just for posterity's sake. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Felix on May 17, 2011, 07:45:43 am
I hope I don't offend anyone but I'm about half way through and I've found it to be pretty boring and lacking in substance.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 17, 2011, 07:50:50 am
Surprise.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: BadBeast on May 17, 2011, 08:16:11 am
I hope I don't offend anyone but I'm about half way through and I've found it to be pretty boring and lacking in substance.
It draws attention to the obedient slave mind mentality and general state of denial that 90% + of the shit flinging monkeys on this planet prefer to adopt as their paradigm. This boring lack of substance that you are so quick to grasp hold of, is no more than a symptom of the denial that's been pre-programmed into your primate brain, by generations of these shit flinging monkeys.
Too lazy to raise themselves up off their knees, they preferred to fall back upon the "If it was good enough for my quadrupedal mammalian prey animal ancestors, then it's good enough for me" view of the World. Are you no better than them?     
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on May 17, 2011, 03:47:11 pm
I hope I don't offend anyone but I'm about half way through and I've found it to be pretty boring and lacking in substance.

The best thing to do in that case is to post something here that is not boring and is full of substance.

We're patient.  We can wait.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on May 17, 2011, 03:51:31 pm
I hope I don't offend anyone but I'm about half way through and I've found it to be pretty boring and lacking in substance.

Yeah, schizophrenics have a hard time getting us. 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on May 17, 2011, 03:56:08 pm
I hope I don't offend anyone but I'm about half way through and I've found it to be pretty boring and lacking in substance.

Oddly enough, we feel the same about you.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on May 17, 2011, 04:03:52 pm
I hope I don't offend anyone but I'm about half way through and I've found it to be pretty boring and lacking in substance.

Oddly enough, we feel the same about you.

OH SNAP!  :lulz:
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: trix on June 19, 2011, 10:59:37 pm
I find the BIP stuff to be utterly brilliant, and in many respects even superior to the original PD, which I am an enormous fan of.  The PD was definitely more upbeat, this is true, but many people I have shown the PD to fail to see the texture beneath the silliness.  The BIP does not have that problem, and from my experience has been better received.

The link to the pamphlet in the OP is a dead 404 though, perhaps that should be fixed?  I am having trouble finding a copy of the BIP material in easy-to-print pamphlet format.

Also, it should have a credits section, whether or not it's part of the pamphlet itself.  Somewhere I can easily find out at-a-glance who wrote which parts.

Either way though, to everyone involved, WELL DONE!!!
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 19, 2011, 11:18:29 pm
I find the BIP stuff to be utterly brilliant, and in many respects even superior to the original PD, which I am an enormous fan of.  The PD was definitely more upbeat, this is true, but many people I have shown the PD to fail to see the texture beneath the silliness.  The BIP does not have that problem, and from my experience has been better received.

The link to the pamphlet in the OP is a dead 404 though, perhaps that should be fixed?  I am having trouble finding a copy of the BIP material in easy-to-print pamphlet format.

Also, it should have a credits section, whether or not it's part of the pamphlet itself.  Somewhere I can easily find out at-a-glance who wrote which parts.

Either way though, to everyone involved, WELL DONE!!!

 :sotw:
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Faust on June 20, 2011, 12:00:37 am
Alright, I'm going to approach this from an organizational perspective and leave the philosophy to LMNO and LHX as they are much more adept at describing those things than I am.

The Black Iron Prison was/is an effort to revisit Discordia in written form.  The general consensus, if it can be called that, was that while the original Principia Discordia holds important messages and philosophies, we wondered if some of the humor and language might be dated and lost on a younger generation of Discordians.  Also, we are all egotistical blowhards who like to see our thoughts in print.   :-D

So, we discussed ideas, memes, philosophies, etc., then we all started writing.  The first result was The Black Iron Prison: Discordia Revisited.  Click here (http://poee.co.uk/doc_files/bip-a4.pdf) to download it and read it if you haven't already.  Plans were made while this first pamphlet was being put together to produce more pamphlets, we even had titles like "Lollercaust" which would have been a more "humorous" effort with more modern humor infused into the writings.  Of course, we all have lives, jobs, etc. so things did stall a bit.  And then came the pd.com crash...

...so during the downtime a new message board was created where we could continue to discuss more ideas, philosophies, memes, definitions, deconstructions, so on and so forth.  When pd.com came back up for good, and was under new management, the effort was moved back here.  (of course the Black Iron Prison Forum crash kind of turned that into a necessity).

And so that is where we are today.  That is the logistics of it.  Again, LMNO and LHX can fill in the philosophical details and other things I'm sure I missed.  Hope this is of some benefit.  I encourage n00bs, lurkers, etc. to download the pamphlet and read it.  Share it with their friends and family.  And then, join the fray!

Don't know if it's been mentioned, but your download is 404.
There is of course a link to an edition on this site via the front page, and BIP first page.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: anthonyony on October 28, 2011, 10:18:27 pm
Holy Crap, so happy I feel like that girl in the Bumble bee suit in the Blind Melon video.  My existential/philosophic search leads me to YOU dweebs, the ones the Machiavellian types make fun of....Damn its TIME TO DANCE!!!!!

The BIP is a wonderful intro for the unwary, and thanks to all involved for the brain candy!  It's a metaphor of imprisonment, intuitive to the Matrix generation, and it works as a mindsmasher.  The metaphor, however, is only one perspective in a complicated world.  Another view---It's not so much that we are in a prison of our own unintentional creation, but rather the Gods scattered millions of multi-function tools and no instruction manuals.  Everyone has been using trans-dimensional network gateway key cards as Bible bookmarks, using Pepsi bottles as potato smashers.  Monkey see, monkey do. (I'll work on that image--it might make a good comic) The biggest problem I have with using the prison viewpoint to convey the message is that it preys on our fears.  Now granted, that's an effective recruitment strategy for the Church (hell is such a FUN motivator!) but should it really be the cover story for a movement of free thinkers? 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: rong on October 28, 2011, 10:28:08 pm
Welcome to peedee. Do you have reservations? You should.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: BadBeast on October 29, 2011, 12:30:14 am
Metaphor?
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx128/ChuckFukmuk/stinkfinger.gif)
Ok, good luck with that.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 29, 2011, 02:01:56 am
Holy Crap, so happy I feel like that girl in the Bumble bee suit in the Blind Melon video.  My existential/philosophic search leads me to YOU dweebs, the ones the Machiavellian types make fun of....Damn its TIME TO DANCE!!!!!

The BIP is a wonderful intro for the unwary, and thanks to all involved for the brain candy!  It's a metaphor of imprisonment, intuitive to the Matrix generation, and it works as a mindsmasher.  The metaphor, however, is only one perspective in a complicated world.  Another view---It's not so much that we are in a prison of our own unintentional creation, but rather the Gods scattered millions of multi-function tools and no instruction manuals.  Everyone has been using trans-dimensional network gateway key cards as Bible bookmarks, using Pepsi bottles as potato smashers.  Monkey see, monkey do. (I'll work on that image--it might make a good comic) The biggest problem I have with using the prison viewpoint to convey the message is that it preys on our fears.  Now granted, that's an effective recruitment strategy for the Church (hell is such a FUN motivator!) but should it really be the cover story for a movement of free thinkers? 

This one seems like it thinks.

I approve.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on October 29, 2011, 04:54:38 am
Holy Crap, so happy I feel like that girl in the Bumble bee suit in the Blind Melon video.  My existential/philosophic search leads me to YOU dweebs, the ones the Machiavellian types make fun of....Damn its TIME TO DANCE!!!!!

The BIP is a wonderful intro for the unwary, and thanks to all involved for the brain candy!  It's a metaphor of imprisonment, intuitive to the Matrix generation, and it works as a mindsmasher.  The metaphor, however, is only one perspective in a complicated world.  Another view---It's not so much that we are in a prison of our own unintentional creation, but rather the Gods scattered millions of multi-function tools and no instruction manuals.  Everyone has been using trans-dimensional network gateway key cards as Bible bookmarks, using Pepsi bottles as potato smashers.  Monkey see, monkey do. (I'll work on that image--it might make a good comic) The biggest problem I have with using the prison viewpoint to convey the message is that it preys on our fears.  Now granted, that's an effective recruitment strategy for the Church (hell is such a FUN motivator!) but should it really be the cover story for a movement of free thinkers? 

No, we should pretend that everything is unicorn jizz and rose-tinted Thai rentboy nipples.

Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on October 29, 2011, 04:55:01 am
Holy Crap, so happy I feel like that girl in the Bumble bee suit in the Blind Melon video.  My existential/philosophic search leads me to YOU dweebs, the ones the Machiavellian types make fun of....Damn its TIME TO DANCE!!!!!

The BIP is a wonderful intro for the unwary, and thanks to all involved for the brain candy!  It's a metaphor of imprisonment, intuitive to the Matrix generation, and it works as a mindsmasher.  The metaphor, however, is only one perspective in a complicated world.  Another view---It's not so much that we are in a prison of our own unintentional creation, but rather the Gods scattered millions of multi-function tools and no instruction manuals.  Everyone has been using trans-dimensional network gateway key cards as Bible bookmarks, using Pepsi bottles as potato smashers.  Monkey see, monkey do. (I'll work on that image--it might make a good comic) The biggest problem I have with using the prison viewpoint to convey the message is that it preys on our fears.  Now granted, that's an effective recruitment strategy for the Church (hell is such a FUN motivator!) but should it really be the cover story for a movement of free thinkers? 

This one seems like it thinks.

I approve.

I'm against it.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 29, 2011, 06:31:28 am
Holy Crap, so happy I feel like that girl in the Bumble bee suit in the Blind Melon video.  My existential/philosophic search leads me to YOU dweebs, the ones the Machiavellian types make fun of....Damn its TIME TO DANCE!!!!!

The BIP is a wonderful intro for the unwary, and thanks to all involved for the brain candy!  It's a metaphor of imprisonment, intuitive to the Matrix generation, and it works as a mindsmasher.  The metaphor, however, is only one perspective in a complicated world.  Another view---It's not so much that we are in a prison of our own unintentional creation, but rather the Gods scattered millions of multi-function tools and no instruction manuals.  Everyone has been using trans-dimensional network gateway key cards as Bible bookmarks, using Pepsi bottles as potato smashers.  Monkey see, monkey do. (I'll work on that image--it might make a good comic) The biggest problem I have with using the prison viewpoint to convey the message is that it preys on our fears.  Now granted, that's an effective recruitment strategy for the Church (hell is such a FUN motivator!) but should it really be the cover story for a movement of free thinkers? 

This one seems like it thinks.

I approve.

I'm against it.

  :argh!: :lulz:
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on October 29, 2011, 07:13:38 pm
Holy Crap, so happy I feel like that girl in the Bumble bee suit in the Blind Melon video.  My existential/philosophic search leads me to YOU dweebs, the ones the Machiavellian types make fun of....Damn its TIME TO DANCE!!!!!

The BIP is a wonderful intro for the unwary, and thanks to all involved for the brain candy!  It's a metaphor of imprisonment, intuitive to the Matrix generation, and it works as a mindsmasher.  The metaphor, however, is only one perspective in a complicated world.  Another view---It's not so much that we are in a prison of our own unintentional creation, but rather the Gods scattered millions of multi-function tools and no instruction manuals.  Everyone has been using trans-dimensional network gateway key cards as Bible bookmarks, using Pepsi bottles as potato smashers.  Monkey see, monkey do. (I'll work on that image--it might make a good comic) The biggest problem I have with using the prison viewpoint to convey the message is that it preys on our fears.  Now granted, that's an effective recruitment strategy for the Church (hell is such a FUN motivator!) but should it really be the cover story for a movement of free thinkers?

No, we should pretend that everything is unicorn jizz and rose-tinted Thai rentboy nipples.

To be fair that's not the only alternative to conveying a message by focusing on fears. As demonstrated by a lot of stuff we've done since we wrote the BIP, conveying our message in all sorts of different ways.

And I disagree that the whole BIP collection preys on fears (I'd have to re-read to be clear on which ones though).

And even the ones that are somewhat "dark" or gloomy preach the fucking TROOF.

Additionally I also disagree that the BIP uses fears in the same sense as a Church would. I'm not really sure how to articulate it though, because I just believe our fears are right and the Church's fears are mostly wrong. Which is not really much of an argument :)

One thing the BIP does, which the Bible doesn't, for instance, is to show just how fucking mundane these fears are. And I mean that in a good way, as a mundane thing is something which you can get a grasp on, not some holy unquestionable ineffable sacred "fact".
Even though there's no escape from the BIP, there's also nothing magical about navigating it, and we don't pretend there is, either.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: anthonyony on October 30, 2011, 10:05:59 pm
First I pet, then I punch. Then I pet.

Please don't misunderstand.  BIP is astounding.  The world seems to need it.

But like the bible, it bears the message "You are ill.  Betcha didn't even know how.  Here's the cure."  Which targets a large audience and maximizes recruiting numbers.  Fine.  All I'm saying is that some of us have already had our psychic inoculations.  What you call "dark" and "gloomy" we brush our teeth with. We don't need some bitch to show US how to toss apples. Why should WE pay attention?

Granted, you probably have other sales pitches, I just haven't found 'em yet.  Bob makes a good one.  Maybe I should stop criticizing.  It's just that once I see something so profoundly cool as what you guys are doing I just wanna fuck with it to see where the flaws are...

BTW, 000, really? "...there's NO escape from the BIP..."? Are you in danger of being mentally imprisoned by your own prison break metaphor?  Maybe it's time for a new optometrist.  Your old one might be sneaking pink dye into your lenses.  (KIDDING! Sheesh...)
      
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cain on October 30, 2011, 10:12:06 pm
I think that word, BIP, does not mean what you think it means.

"Here is the cure".  The BIP proposes no cure, it is not a condition that can be cured, only one that someone can be aware of and attempt to mitigate through various means.

"The BIP can be escaped".  You have found a way to bypass your limited human senses and interact directly with your environment, without preconcieved notions, political ideology, religious, cultural or socio-economic beliefs inteferring?  I'm impressed, but skeptical.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: anthonyony on October 30, 2011, 10:42:05 pm
  You have found a way to bypass your limited human senses and interact directly with your environment, without preconcieved notions, political ideology, religious, cultural or socio-economic beliefs inteferring?  I'm impressed, but skeptical.
It's not easy and I'm no expert, but it's simple.  The Buddhists do it all the time.  (Have you ever had a perfect moment?) Or if you prefer, commune with Eris' sister.  But who would want to do that?  I LIKE some of my notions, even though I KNOW they are flawed.  They are only tools to make things easier.  Finding, modifying and discarding them while monitoring their "interference" is tricky, though, and therein lies the challenge....
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 30, 2011, 11:07:33 pm
  You have found a way to bypass your limited human senses and interact directly with your environment, without preconcieved notions, political ideology, religious, cultural or socio-economic beliefs inteferring?  I'm impressed, but skeptical.
It's not easy and I'm no expert, but it's simple.  The Buddhists do it all the time.  (Have you ever had a perfect moment?) Or if you prefer, commune with Eris' sister.  But who would want to do that?  I LIKE some of my notions, even though I KNOW they are flawed.  They are only tools to make things easier.  Finding, modifying and discarding them while monitoring their "interference" is tricky, though, and therein lies the challenge....

The BIP is just one way of describing existence. The only way to "escape" it is to stop existing. You could describe it as a Golden Sphere of Possibility, instead, if you like that better. You could call the bars "reality filters" or "Lenses of Possibility".

It's not about being jaded, or not-jaded. It's just a collection of attempts to describe the ways people interact with their world, and introduce an awareness that we may have more control over our perceptions than we had previously believed. If you don't need to be introduced to that awareness, great. Lots of people are already aware of it, and that's wonderful! The more people are aware of it, the better.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cramulus on October 31, 2011, 03:08:19 pm
Hey Anthonony, good to meecha. Welcome to to the Peedy forums. There's an awesome pool on the roof (the Principia subforum is the "roof")

About the Black Iron Prison booklet:

We wanted to present an alternate angle to approach Discordia. This packaging is useful for people who feel trapped and may not realize that their choices are what's trapping them. It's something I come back to when I'm feeling depressed or stressed out - because it reminds me that I am the jailer here. It's dark, yeah, but it's speaking to an audience that is experiencing something dark and needs to reconnect with their locus of control.

We tried out a few other angles to express that idea. My lighter riff on the BIP is printed in Intermittens Issue 1, titled "Within a Dream" - check it out on page 12: http://www.scribd.com/doc/13236803/InterMittens-vol-0123 -- tl;dr summary: I think that the epiphany that you are having a dream is very similar to the epiphany that you are in charge of your life. Mindfulness makes the dream lucid.

The "point" of the BIP was based in a discussion going on around here in 2006. The idea was that we liked the Principia Discordia, but wanted to boil some of its philosophy down and repackage it without the distractions (humor and silliness). I know that seems anathema to a lot of Discordians! It's just one brand of Discordian heresy we offer here at the PD forums.  :p
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Triple Zero on October 31, 2011, 08:24:05 pm
BTW, 000, really? "...there's NO escape from the BIP..."? Are you in danger of being mentally imprisoned by thy own prison break metaphor?  Maybe it's time for a new optometrist.  thy old one might be sneaking pink dye into thy lenses.  (KIDDING! Sheesh...)

It's kinda in the definition. The BIP walls are sort of nested, whenever you break out of one set of walls, you find yourself enclosed in another.

Even Buddhists.

But it's not a bad or negative thing, it just defines life, the life worth living, as the continuing act of breaking your walls.

It's another way of saying that, upon "attaining enlightenment" (whatever that exactly means), you can't sit down and say "Ok cool, I'm enlightened. ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED 8)", cause it doesn't work that way.

Yet another way of saying it is "Freedom is a verb".

Get it? Even though there's no (ultimate) escape, a fulfilling life consists of a series of attempts and breakouts and taking down walls, but you're never going to get them all. Not even the Buddhists, they got their own traps.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: BadBeast on October 31, 2011, 08:39:05 pm
Made from welded together keys.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 31, 2011, 08:57:52 pm
Made from welded together keys.

:mittens:
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Roly Poly Oly-Garch on November 05, 2011, 10:30:01 pm
Hello, Hello, Hello,

Check it out. I've got an opinion.

First off, BIP, hit me right where I live. I gotta call that immaculate, fuck all else. Came to PD.com cause, frankly, the world was breaking my god-damned heart and I kinda hankered for an old familiar bit of levity. Instead, I found something I found much more substantial...a hearty A-MEN! I could pick it apart and point out where it strayed from what I consider very essential elements in PD, address my philosophical misgivings with the contents, armchair quarterback the game plan and execution, but at the moment I'm just not that interested in doing so. Mostly, by way of introduction, I'm just interested in saying that I felt every damned bit of it, even, and maybe especially, what I considered utter bullshit.

"A lot of us dont really have it in us to go to great lengths to disguise the message any more," was like a hug at a funeral.
...And the term "Bliss Ninny," just really, REALLY needed to be coined.

I'll maybe slap y'all with some fishes or something later, but for now, I'm a just leave it at that.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 06, 2011, 04:39:43 am
Hello Pastor Blastor, I like your avatar.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Roly Poly Oly-Garch on November 06, 2011, 03:08:32 pm
Hello Pastor Blastor, I like your avatar.

Thanks. When I came upon it IRL, at first I just thought it was kind of stupid, maybe redundant even. But the more I overthink it the more I see the evil genius. It's a perfect way to troll for knee-jerk anti-authoritarians.

"Well normally the fact that the bike trail is 5 feet under a rapidly flowing, flooded river would stop me from trying to ride any further, but then again, these asshole politicians can fuck themselves where they sit if they think I'm a let some bullshit barricade rob me of my liberty to ride where I want. YEEE-HAW...FIGHT THE burble-burble-choke."

Sadly I don't believe it claimed any victims this year, but I'm not giving up on the model.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on November 09, 2011, 02:59:37 pm
First I pet, then I punch. Then I pet.

Please don't misunderstand.  BIP is astounding.  The world seems to need it.

But like the bible, it bears the message "You are ill.  Betcha didn't even know how.  Here's the cure."  Which targets a large audience and maximizes recruiting numbers.  Fine.  All I'm saying is that some of us have already had our psychic inoculations.  What you call "dark" and "gloomy" we brush our teeth with. We don't need some bitch to show US how to toss apples. Why should WE pay attention?

Granted, you probably have other sales pitches, I just haven't found 'em yet.  Bob makes a good one.  Maybe I should stop criticizing.  It's just that once I see something so profoundly cool as what you guys are doing I just wanna fuck with it to see where the flaws are...

BTW, 000, really? "...there's NO escape from the BIP..."? Are you in danger of being mentally imprisoned by your own prison break metaphor?  Maybe it's time for a new optometrist.  Your old one might be sneaking pink dye into your lenses.  (KIDDING! Sheesh...)
      

I'd refer you to the "nature of reality" section on page... 15?  It's the one that points out the biological limitations of perception.  You'll never observe a quark, or a nutrino.  Further than that, you have evolved to unconciously shut out most phenomenon that you can observe.  Even a so-called "trancendental state" occurs within the synapses of your brain, which is still just a model of the Universe. 

Not escaping the BIP is not depressing, it's existence.  Not being able or willing to construct your own cell however you please... That's depressing.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Saint Wolfsong on January 18, 2012, 12:47:46 am
I prefer the light and airy and more than faintly absurd.  Saturnian aneristic structure makes me sneeze.  And break out in hives; and when the bees leave the hives, everyone around me becomes mildly annoyed.  Luckily, there's rarely anyone around me.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: navkat on January 18, 2012, 05:34:21 am
BTW, 000, really? "...there's NO escape from the BIP..."? Are you in danger of being mentally imprisoned by thy own prison break metaphor?  Maybe it's time for a new optometrist.  thy old one might be sneaking pink dye into thy lenses.  (KIDDING! Sheesh...)

It's kinda in the definition. The BIP walls are sort of nested, whenever you break out of one set of walls, you find yourself enclosed in another.

Even Buddhists.

But it's not a bad or negative thing, it just defines life, the life worth living, as the continuing act of breaking your walls.

It's another way of saying that, upon "attaining enlightenment" (whatever that exactly means), you can't sit down and say "Ok cool, I'm enlightened. ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED 8)", cause it doesn't work that way.

Yet another way of saying it is "Freedom is a verb".

Get it? Even though there's no (ultimate) escape, a fulfilling life consists of a series of attempts and breakouts and taking down walls, but you're never going to get them all. Not even the Buddhists, they got their own traps.

Some of us, of course, are weary of breaking walls and prefer, instead to spend time decorating our cages with found objects and glitter and amuse ourselves by throwing glowsticks and candy through the bars at passers by.

I sometimes laugh at the silly people, breaking walls in the ajoining cages.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Sir Bearington on July 25, 2012, 04:01:13 pm
Just explain to me simply about what this thread is about.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on July 25, 2012, 04:15:57 pm
Just explain to me simply about what this thread is about.

This thread is about what this section is about.  N00bs should read this.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 25, 2012, 04:21:11 pm
Just explain to me simply about what this thread is about.

It's about highways, Trollbear, highways and bridges and Old Weird Ben and what happened up at Blowjob Circle, the late night thump-thump of sixteen wheelers rolling over a bump in the road, it's about copper salvage and dry creekbeds and that yurt in the hills outside of Sisters, about teenage miscreants and holes in the ground and THAT SMELL, about reaching into the deepest, darkest part of yourself and lighting a birthday candle.

Welcome home.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: LMNO on July 25, 2012, 04:23:38 pm
Just explain to me simply about what this thread is about.

It's about highways, Trollbear, highways and bridges and Old Weird Ben and what happened up at Blowjob Circle, the late night thump-thump of sixteen wheelers rolling over a bump in the road, it's about copper salvage and dry creekbeds and that yurt in the hills outside of Sisters, about teenage miscreants and holes in the ground and THAT SMELL, about reaching into the deepest, darkest part of yourself and lighting a birthday candle.

Welcome home.

Now I want to use that as the introduction to every subforum here.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Sir Bearington on July 25, 2012, 08:38:45 pm
Just explain to me simply about what this thread is about.

It's about highways, Trollbear, highways and bridges and Old Weird Ben and what happened up at Blowjob Circle, the late night thump-thump of sixteen wheelers rolling over a bump in the road, it's about copper salvage and dry creekbeds and that yurt in the hills outside of Sisters, about teenage miscreants and holes in the ground and THAT SMELL, about reaching into the deepest, darkest part of yourself and lighting a birthday candle.

Welcome home.

If this is a thread for babbling nonsense then i think i this may be place i may never escape from.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 25, 2012, 11:34:51 pm
Just explain to me simply about what this thread is about.

It's about highways, Trollbear, highways and bridges and Old Weird Ben and what happened up at Blowjob Circle, the late night thump-thump of sixteen wheelers rolling over a bump in the road, it's about copper salvage and dry creekbeds and that yurt in the hills outside of Sisters, about teenage miscreants and holes in the ground and THAT SMELL, about reaching into the deepest, darkest part of yourself and lighting a birthday candle.

Welcome home.

I love this place.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 25, 2012, 11:59:52 pm
:thanks:
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on July 26, 2012, 02:15:50 am
Just explain to me simply about what this thread is about.

1st page, 2nd post by this charming fellow:  There are other describatory posts on that first page, you know, if you click on them. 
 
Alright, I'm going to approach this from an organizational perspective and leave the philosophy to LMNO and LHX as they are much more adept at describing those things than I am.

The Black Iron Prison was/is an effort to revisit Discordia in written form.  The general consensus, if it can be called that, was that while the original Principia Discordia holds important messages and philosophies, we wondered if some of the humor and language might be dated and lost on a younger generation of Discordians.  Also, we are all egotistical blowhards who like to see our thoughts in print.   :-D

So, we discussed ideas, memes, philosophies, etc., then we all started writing.  The first result was The Black Iron Prison: Discordia Revisited.  Click here (http://poee.co.uk/doc_files/bip-a4.pdf) to download it and read it if you haven't already.  Plans were made while this first pamphlet was being put together to produce more pamphlets, we even had titles like "Lollercaust" which would have been a more "humorous" effort with more modern humor infused into the writings.  Of course, we all have lives, jobs, etc. so things did stall a bit.  And then came the pd.com crash...

...so during the downtime a new message board was created where we could continue to discuss more ideas, philosophies, memes, definitions, deconstructions, so on and so forth.  When pd.com came back up for good, and was under new management, the effort was moved back here.  (of course the Black Iron Prison Forum crash kind of turned that into a necessity).

And so that is where we are today.  That is the logistics of it.  Again, LMNO and LHX can fill in the philosophical details and other things I'm sure I missed.  Hope this is of some benefit.  I encourage n00bs, lurkers, etc. to download the pamphlet and read it.  Share it with their friends and family.  And then, join the fray!
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: AFK on July 26, 2012, 02:17:06 am
Yeah, I know, that link is borked but you should still be able to download the BIP in some form or version at www.blackironprison.com (http://www.blackironprison.com)
 
 
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Chaser on September 06, 2012, 02:31:11 pm
Well.. that made about as much sense to me as the muzza subculture does to Dok.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 06, 2012, 02:38:12 pm
Well.. that made about as much sense to me as the muzza subculture does to Dok.

Nobody understands this shit.  Not even us.  If we DID understand it, we could explain it, and if we could explain it, the world would be a better place.

We wouldn't have to tell you that subcultures are for the most part a bad thing, for example.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Chaser on September 06, 2012, 03:12:08 pm
As Tony Soprano said, life is just a series of distractions until we die. I picked my poison, we gym, rave at festivals, have ridiculous haircuts and meet girls. I'm young and can get away with this shit.

Give me 10 years and I'll be a reformed dad like you, Dok.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 06, 2012, 03:13:31 pm
As Tony Soprano said, life is just a series of distractions until we die. I picked my poison, we gym, rave at festivals, have ridiculous haircuts and meet girls. I'm young and can get away with this shit.

Then one day you find yourself doing it at age 40, with all the girls staring at you in disgust.  I've seen it happen.

Give me 10 years and I'll be a reformed dad like you, Dok.

Try 20 years, and a lot of substance abuse.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 06, 2012, 03:15:49 pm
Also, there was never a requirement to pick a poison.  I go to the gym, but I see no need to make a subculture out of it.  I feel no need to adopt a prepackaged, stretch-wrapped language set.  I'm me.  What the hell are you?
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Luna on September 06, 2012, 03:21:40 pm
Also, there was never a requirement to pick a poison.  I go to the gym, but I see no need to make a subculture out of it.  I feel no need to adopt a prepackaged, stretch-wrapped language set.  I'm me.  What the hell are you?

Still trying on uniforms, I suspect.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Chaser on September 06, 2012, 03:23:28 pm
I enjoy it, though, Dok.
I'm not THAT bad that I'm not an individual. And the lingo is mainly a joke. I often use "come at me bro" to get a rise out of people, I play this shit up to see people's reactions. What can I say, I'm an attention whore.

Only an idiot allows himself to be a walking stereotype.

Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 06, 2012, 05:24:44 pm
I enjoy it, though, Dok.
I'm not THAT bad that I'm not an individual. And the lingo is mainly a joke. I often use "come at me bro" to get a rise out of people, I play this shit up to see people's reactions. What can I say, I'm an attention whore.

Only an idiot allows himself to be a walking stereotype.

But the problem comes in when you try to come out of the joke, and find that people have taken the joke stereotype as real.  I don't, because I've known you for a while.  Other people are a different story.

Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 06, 2012, 05:26:21 pm
Also, I'm a bit of an attention whore myself...But the best way to get attention around here is to take part in the conversations on a serious level.  You're a smart guy, and you'll get better quality attention if you use those brains, rather than prepackaged one-liners.

Don't half-ass it.  FULLY ass it.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Chaser on September 06, 2012, 05:42:53 pm
I've spent the past two years avoiding college and probably frying my remaining brain cells with drink and Xanax. This shit is HARD, Dok. I even have to squint and concentrate when the 6 o clock news comes on.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 06, 2012, 05:54:58 pm
I've spent the past two years avoiding college and probably frying my remaining brain cells with drink and Xanax. This shit is HARD, Dok. I even have to squint and concentrate when the 6 o clock news comes on.

That's okay.  In 1995, I got my tongue stuck in an Epson tractor feed printer, and I do just fine.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: Cain on September 06, 2012, 06:33:15 pm
PD has solved the conumdrum that it takes a higher order of intelligence to solve a problem than to cause it.

Sufficiently lower levels of intelligence can brute force the problem, preferably with lots of shouting and hallucinogens.
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: zarathustrasbastardson on November 09, 2012, 01:52:23 am
g;aklhf

everyone is only looking for that love they lost when they weren't looking for it...

She is everything to me...
*but not really*

Just some ho ho ho ... christmas *or should I say anti-christmas* love I wanted to shag, but couldn't.. due to my callous heart!

 werahdfkljsfh
Title: Re: What is this section about (n00bs read this!)
Post by: zarathustrasbastardson on November 09, 2012, 01:53:45 am
Bah! Be! Come! back!

I'd! be a fool! to let! you go!

ujdhgfgv hgiuyrf iuy