Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Literate Chaotic => Topic started by: Cramulus on May 22, 2007, 05:39:13 pm

Title: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cramulus on May 22, 2007, 05:39:13 pm
I decided to split off the "enough" (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=12632.0) thread to address this--

All this discordianism crap is pretty much breaking down into a few distinct principles:

Pattern Recognition.
Primate Territorialism.
Reality grids/filters.

What other things do you think are part of Discord's "core themes"?

High Madness / Weirdness has been mentioned.


I ask because when it comes time to rewrite the book on Discordia, it'd be nice to have a sort of checklist of what should be included.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 22, 2007, 05:56:32 pm
Discordia is about being a movement, rather than being a part of a movement.

Discordia is about swimming with or against the shoal, depending on your whim and, maybe, the proximity of the nearest shark.

Discordia is about discord, for the hell of it, if you wanna.

But that's just anarchy. Pure, survival of the nastiest, anarchy.

It's discordians that make it what it is.

Discordia is about not being a discordian.

The name is not a definition, rather it's a statement.

"I am not definable. You cannot tell what I am by the word you would use to describe me. I do not fit in a box that small. I think and do the things I think and do, more by conscious decision than programmed response, a lot more than people who I would not describe as discordian."

I met these people through discordia (bitch with an apple brung 'em to me)

I'm Cybin and I am not a discordian.

Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cramulus on May 22, 2007, 05:58:15 pm
dude! memetic mitten bombs!
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Triple Zero on May 22, 2007, 06:05:36 pm
Discordia is about swimming with or against the shoal, depending on your whim and, maybe, the proximity of the nearest shark.

reminds me of one of those meme bombs "society is a sewer, learn to swim" or something
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cain on May 22, 2007, 06:09:35 pm
Play
Chance
Disorder
Decentralized
Creation
Satire
Irony
Indeterminacy
Meta metaphysics

Come to mind.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cramulus on May 22, 2007, 06:11:51 pm
what about

Chaos is a balance between Order and Disorder. Discordians seek balance. In present times, there is too much Order, so Discordians try to sow Disorder.

(tangent for the History of Discordia booklet: in what period of history would Discordians instigate Order rather than Disorder?)

Discordia, as a religion, is about coming up with your own answers about god, fate, the universe, and morality, rather than just adopting someone else's framework wholesale. In that, it does not exist on the same continuum as deity worship, agnosticism, and atheism.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: cyberus on May 22, 2007, 09:09:23 pm
(tangent for the History of Discordia booklet: in what period of history would Discordians instigate Order rather than Disorder?)

Genghis Khan could be called a discordian in this sense.  When the norm for northeast Asia was warring nomadic tribes, he sought to unite under a common tribe, so food, and  basic necessities were more easily available, as well as increased defenses, etc.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: AFK on May 22, 2007, 09:25:23 pm
what about

Chaos is a balance between Order and Disorder. Discordians seek balance. In present times, there is too much Order, so Discordians try to sow Disorder.

(tangent for the History of Discordia booklet: in what period of history would Discordians instigate Order rather than Disorder?)

Discordia, as a religion, is about coming up with your own answers about god, fate, the universe, and morality, rather than just adopting someone else's framework wholesale. In that, it does not exist on the same continuum as deity worship, agnosticism, and atheism.

#1 needs to be fleshed out more.  Remember the distinctions of creative vs. destructive order and creative vs. destructive disorder. 

#2 is great if you lose the "religion" word. 
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cramulus on May 22, 2007, 09:33:24 pm

what about


Discordia, as a religion, is about coming up with your own answers about god, fate, the universe, and morality, rather than just adopting someone else's framework wholesale. In that, it does not exist on the same continuum as deity worship, agnosticism, and atheism.


#2 is great if you lose the "religion" word. 


What else, then? I'm not trying to say that Discordia is a religion, as it's a religion to some people who follow it but not to others. But for those that do follow it as a religion, I want to make a distinction between Discordia's eclectic attitude, and that of "Discordians worship the Goddess Eris."

as we've said before, this is one of those things that's hard to crystallize because no one agrees on what Discordia is.

Maybe the following paragraph would contrast:

Discordia, as a philosophy, is about coming up with your own answers about god, fate, the universe, and morality, rather than just adopting an existing framework wholesale. In that, it does not exist on the same continuum as modernism, post-modernism, etc
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: AFK on May 22, 2007, 09:41:22 pm
works for me.  That's how I think of it, as a philosophy.  Religion entails deities and such and I think any actual worship of Eris is kind of silly.  But again, that's just my personal opinion on it.  Others are welcome to have theirs.

And as far as defining Discordia, I'm not sure you can ever really crystalize it in any really compact way.  I think the whole "think for yourself schmuck" kind of works against that.  Unless of course, all of the schmucks share the same thoughts. 
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 22, 2007, 10:05:52 pm
If you want to know what discordia is then ffs don't ask.

SRSLY!
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Darth Cupcake on May 23, 2007, 06:58:04 am
(tangent for the History of Discordia booklet: in what period of history would Discordians instigate Order rather than Disorder?)

Genghis Khan could be called a discordian in this sense.  When the norm for northeast Asia was warring nomadic tribes, he sought to unite under a common tribe, so food, and  basic necessities were more easily available, as well as increased defenses, etc.

Also, I don't remember if it was Genghis Khan, but I think it was... One of those crazy warlord fellows used to stack up the severed heads of his enemies into pyramids. Once the heads began to decompose, the decomposition process would cause them to glow in the dark.

Thus, huge glowing pyramids of heads. HUGE GLOWING PYRAMIDS OF HEADS!

This is all I remember from high school world history. It is all I care to remember. It is genius! I don't know if it necessarily counts as Discordian per se, but huge glowing pyramids of heads. Yes!
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on May 23, 2007, 07:25:29 am
If your huge pyramid of heads doesn't glow you've did it wrong.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cain on May 23, 2007, 09:51:49 am
(tangent for the History of Discordia booklet: in what period of history would Discordians instigate Order rather than Disorder?)

Genghis Khan could be called a discordian in this sense.  When the norm for northeast Asia was warring nomadic tribes, he sought to unite under a common tribe, so food, and  basic necessities were more easily available, as well as increased defenses, etc.

But isn't unification trying to impose a consensus and so part of the Aneristic delusion?

I mean sure, as a Mongol, I probably would have signed up for the pillaging and looting too, but I'd just as likely try to kill the Khan in his sleep.  And unlike another certain group of proto-Discordians, I wouldn't merely fuck up and kill his sons instead.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: cyberus on May 23, 2007, 10:35:53 am
But isn't unification trying to impose a consensus and so part of the Aneristic delusion?

I thought that was the intended scope of the question.  To show a happenstance of a perceived lack of order, within which, by the introduction of aneristic principles, a better state of being was reached, is how I understood the question.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cain on May 23, 2007, 10:40:11 am
Was it better?  As far as I can see, lots of people ended up dead and the empire fell apart.  Not to mention all of the structural improvement could have been done without the huge piles of bodies and devastated cities etc....
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: cyberus on May 23, 2007, 10:43:57 am
Maybe it was one of those things that started off as a good idea, but as more and more ideas got piled on top of it, it glowed, and stank of fail and rotting flesh.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Jasper on May 25, 2007, 05:09:42 am
My core themes tend to be

Faster
Cheaper
Efficient-er
Newer
Shorter
Sweeter
Punchier
Friendlier
Sincerer
Absurder
Funnier
Meaner
Truer
Smarter
Cooler
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: PopeTom on June 27, 2007, 09:11:11 am
That focusing on order over disorder or disorder over order isn't nearly as important as focusing on the creative over the destructive.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Triple Zero on June 27, 2007, 10:37:39 am
i destroy focus over blurredness!
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: the other anonymous on June 27, 2007, 06:50:36 pm
Haikus and pornography.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on June 27, 2007, 06:55:15 pm


All this discordianism crap is pretty much breaking down into a few distinct principles:

Pattern Recognition.
Primate Territorialism.
Reality grids/filters.



Quoted because I think it's important.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: the other anonymous on June 27, 2007, 06:59:50 pm

Pattern Recognition -- Haiku (5-7-5)
Primate Territorialism -- Pornography (where da bitches at?)
Reality grids/filters. -- Haikus AND pornography (I know it when I see it)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on June 27, 2007, 07:18:20 pm
to bring the negative aspects to light:

discordia is all of this and also:

- frustration
- anger
- dread


POLITICALLY/SOCIALLY:
it is not a fight against the Way Things Are, it's a fight against the Way Things Are Going (if you happen to have one or more of the above mentioned feelings in connection with that).

PHILOSOPHICALLY/PERSONALLY:
It's a rebellion against always being the same person just because it's comfortable.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Iron Sulfide on June 27, 2007, 09:00:35 pm
i'm a bit of a wispy-headed eastern thinker on the subject,
and tend towards Unism, or Monism (not monotheism) on the nature
of reality.

that said, the concept of Discord, to me, represents those three you mentioned
)Pattern Recog, Territorialism, Reality(

but it also implies the corollary, to me. i.e. understanding the
inane, random syntax the patterns form out of; reconsituting the
fictive boundaries created in our territorial perceptions (whether
it's taboos, state lines, laws, my personal space on the public transit...);
always being able to flip your thinking into something else- "empathy" if you will.

i mean: in pattern recognition, it's difficult sometimes to see the pattern.
but easy when compared to trying to understand Pi. and in as much, Pi is
easier to understand as a syntax than a pattern.

or: killing chickens is okay when i'm hungery, but not for pointless rituals
where the meat gets wasted afterwards. it's okay, though, for pointless
rituals where they eat it afterwards. everything in this pseudoparagraph is false.

or: reality is that which is directly observable and testable. reality is the sub-atomic particles that fluctuate between various eigen states. reality is a metaphore that we have to live through in order to understand, because we're that dumb. reality is the subjective nature of consciousness developement.

in short, the fourth core attribute i would add on is "Advocacy for the Devil."
because a chaos without order is no fun. life without death is far from thrilling.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Forteetu on June 28, 2007, 08:08:12 am

What other things do you think are part of Discord's "core themes"?

High Madness / Weirdness has been mentioned.


I ask because when it comes time to rewrite the book on Discordia, it'd be nice to have a sort of checklist of what should be included.

Well, as a n00b to the forum I'm sure I'm bound to be flamed sooner or later so why not weigh in here.

First, seems kinda odd to me that there's talk of re-writing the PD. I mean really, was Rocky II any better than Rocky? Yet at the same time, if a new copy gets a few more poeple to pick it up and stop being cabbages, then I'm all for it.

IMHO, no matter what else you do to the text, it all boils down to two sections of the book for me. The most important is the section ON OCCULTISM and the second bit is the discussion on The Sacred Chao.

Spin those concepts off into a couple dozen sub-topics delivered with a bit of irony and the occasional poo joke and you just might have the next "Steal This Book".
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on June 28, 2007, 01:51:10 pm

but it also implies the corollary, to me. i.e. understanding the
inane, random syntax the patterns form out of; reconsituting the
fictive boundaries created in our territorial perceptions (whether
it's taboos, state lines, laws, my personal space on the public transit...);
always being able to flip your thinking into something else- "empathy" if you will.

This is true.  I suppose I had taken for granted that most things contain their opposite.  So yes, pattern recognition = recognition of disorder, primate territorialism = tolerance, reality grids = tunnel vision.

Well, as a n00b to the forum I'm sure I'm bound to be flamed sooner or later so why not weigh in here.

First, seems kinda odd to me that there's talk of re-writing the PD. I mean really, was Rocky II any better than Rocky? Yet at the same time, if a new copy gets a few more poeple to pick it up and stop being cabbages, then I'm all for it.

IMHO, no matter what else you do to the text, it all boils down to two sections of the book for me. The most important is the section ON OCCULTISM and the second bit is the discussion on The Sacred Chao.

Spin those concepts off into a couple dozen sub-topics delivered with a bit of irony and the occasional poo joke and you just might have the next "Steal This Book".

Hi n00b!

To save you the thread diving, here's the summary of why we came up with this in the first place:

1. We've been posting here for a while.
2. We noticed among ourselves that we embraced some aspects of the PD.
3. We also noticed we rejected some things
     a. Specifically, we rejected the outdated, hippie pseudo-zen fluffy humor.
     b. We got sick of a lot of the "Pineal Gland! 23!  Fnord!" stuff.
4. We felt that a 40-year-old joke hidden as religion hidden as philosophy hidden as a joke might need to be updated.
5.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cramulus on June 28, 2007, 03:15:13 pm
In many ways, I have the same feelings for the Principia as I do Illuminatus!.

Both created long-lasting bubbles in my pineal gland which has caused infinite merry spirals and subspirals in my life.

But in rereading Illuminatus, I can't help but feel it's a little outdated. The details of the revolution that Wilson talked about involved things like white men sleeping with black women. His characters thought that was pretty kinky. Hippies learning to sympathize with cops. etc.

I grew up with parents who grew up in the 60s (though were not hippies). Peace love and understanding were in the background of my childhood, so Wilson & Shea's revolution doesn't seem that shocking to me as it might have on their original audience.

Then the Principia -- same thing. I feel like the core "religion disguised as a joke / joke disguised as a religion" was probably very fresh in the 60s, but we're living in the era of subgenii, pastafarians, last tuesdayists, cthulhu cults, and all sorts of other malarky. If Discordia is going to bloom in the coming decades, it needs a fresh coat of paint.

Are we the ones who will give it that? It would be kind of egotistical to think so, and probably not. But there are some memetic masterminds here, and I feel that the snowball which becomes an avalanche could very well be thrown here on this forum.

So whether we "rewrite the PD" or masturbate about the black iron prison or just post retarded MS Paint pictures, I think this is the place to be.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: AFK on June 28, 2007, 03:29:51 pm
In many ways, I have the same feelings for the Principia as I do Illuminatus!.

Both created long-lasting bubbles in my pineal gland which has caused infinite merry spirals and subspirals in my life.

But in rereading Illuminatus, I can't help but feel it's a little outdated. The details of the revolution that Wilson talked about involved things like white men sleeping with black women. His characters thought that was pretty kinky. Hippies learning to sympathize with cops. etc.

I grew up with parents who grew up in the 60s (though were not hippies). Peace love and understanding were in the background of my childhood, so Wilson & Shea's revolution doesn't seem that shocking to me as it might have on their original audience.

Then the Principia -- same thing. I feel like the core "religion disguised as a joke / joke disguised as a religion" was probably very fresh in the 60s, but we're living in the era of subgenii, pastafarians, last tuesdayists, cthulhu cults, and all sorts of other malarky. If Discordia is going to bloom in the coming decades, it needs a fresh coat of paint.

Are we the ones who will give it that? It would be kind of egotistical to think so, and probably not. But there are some memetic masterminds here, and I feel that the snowball which becomes an avalanche could very well be thrown here on this forum.

So whether we "rewrite the PD" or masturbate about the black iron prison or just post retarded MS Paint pictures, I think this is the place to be.


well said. 

Let's face it.  Even these original writings, the PD, Illuminatus, barely made a noticeable dent in the cultures in the times and eras they were written.  Even now, the closest these things get to any kind of larger societal stage is an occassional "Billy and Mandy" cartoon. 

But, some of the "core values and ideals" have wide ranging applications to the larger society and we all know that.  This means packaging is important.  Does that mean we doll it up and sell it to the Hot Topic and MySpace crowds?  Well, we probably could, if we found someone with money to burn, but what kind of results would we get?

Cram is right, I don't think it's realistic to think this group here can really make any significant statements or changes.  It's a nice thought but it isn't going to happen.  So instead of focusing on the Macro we look at the Micro.  By exchanging ideas and memes with other Discordians and like-minded ilk.  By exchanging ideas and memes with friends and families who may be open to this stuff, or at least, the ideas of open-mindedness, nonsense as salvation, reality grids, etc., etc. 

In the end, if we help no one else, we are at least helping ourselves. 
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Forteetu on June 28, 2007, 03:30:17 pm

Then the Principia -- same thing. I feel like the core "religion disguised as a joke / joke disguised as a religion" was probably very fresh in the 60s, but we're living in the era of subgenii, pastafarians, last tuesdayists, cthulhu cults, and all sorts of other malarky. If Discordia is going to bloom in the coming decades, it needs a fresh coat of paint.

Are we the ones who will give it that? It would be kind of egotistical to think so, and probably not. But there are some memetic masterminds here, and I feel that the snowball which becomes an avalanche could very well be thrown here on this forum.

So whether we "rewrite the PD" or masturbate about the black iron prison or just post retarded MS Paint pictures, I think this is the place to be.


Yeh, fair enough from that point of view. In that case, I would suggest the inclusion of further discussion on:
The 8 circuit model of human consciousness
Alfred Korzybski's General Semantics
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on June 28, 2007, 03:36:58 pm
Although I like the model of the 8-circuit, I'm finding it increasingly uncomfortable to act as if that's what's really goin on in our heads.  The lack of evidence of the circuits, and the devotion some people feel about it reminds me all too much of the scientologists and theire "reactive mind" bit.

And if we talk about semantics, we should probably dress it up in a different suit.  A lot of people are immediately turned off when they hear the word.


By all means, Fort, write away!
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cramulus on June 28, 2007, 03:43:56 pm
Yeh, fair enough from that point of view. In that case, I would suggest the inclusion of further discussion on:
The 8 circuit model of human consciousness
Alfred Korzybski's General Semantics

I agree with you, I think those things are totally useful to the average person.
I also agree with what LMNO just said - that there's a danger of thinking that the 8-circuit model is how things "really" work. It's ironic that a lot of 8-circuit people get caught up in the model worship which that very system is warning us about.

Trying to push this in a fresh direction -
How could one integrate the 8-circuit model with the classic Discordian High Madness? What is core to the 8-circuit model which is also (remaining in line with the OP) a Core Theme of Discordia?

Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on June 28, 2007, 03:45:33 pm
For me, it's the primate territorialism (Circuits 1-4) combined with its opposite (Circuits 5-8)

Biggest flaw: curcuits 7-8 are so far out there, they might as well be science fiction.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cramulus on June 28, 2007, 03:56:18 pm
Biggest flaw: curcuits 7-8 are so far out there, they might as well be science fiction.

Random thought - oddly enough, based on your typo:

what about dressing it up as the 8-circus model?

an 8-ring circus--


there's a scene in each ring which is typical of that circuit.


In the first ring everyone's trying to survive

In the second ring the musclemen are bossing around each other

The third ring is a college lecture which is attempting to explain all the chaos going on, etc


there could be a "saint" for each circuit - a sort of internal mystical figure to appeal to when you need help (following through with the religion/joke motif)

and of course the masked ringmaster is ....the self!
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on June 28, 2007, 03:58:06 pm
WHO IS NUMBER ONE?
  \
(http://www.fathers.ca/200406prisoner2.jpg)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Forteetu on June 28, 2007, 03:59:29 pm
Although I like the model of the 8-circuit, I'm finding it increasingly uncomfortable to act as if that's what's really goin on in our heads.  The lack of evidence of the circuits, and the devotion some people feel about it reminds me all too much of the scientologists and theire "reactive mind" bit.

And if we talk about semantics, we should probably dress it up in a different suit.  A lot of people are immediately turned off when they hear the word.


By all means, Fort, write away!

I agree with you in some ways about over-devotion to the 8-circuit model, and also that it isn't "really" what's going on. The map is not the territory. To me the model is a good way to get started and general semantics keeps one grounded in the frame that ANY map you create for yourself still isn't whats "really" happening. Doesn't mean you don't still need a map. And I believe that the 8-circuit model is intrinsically tied to RAW and works of Discord, so its a definite front runner for the model to be used as a jump point.



Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cramulus on June 28, 2007, 04:02:42 pm
And I believe that the 8-circuit model is intrinsically tied to RAW and works of Discord, so its a definite front runner for the model to be used as a jump point.

certainly true

Myself, I'm trying to avoid RAW hero worship. He's gone and Discordia is ours now. If Discordia only grows in RAW directions, it's going to reach a dead end eventually.

don't get me wrong, I do think the 8-circuit model is important to us.
I just don't want to find myself fine-tooth-combing RAW's life story trying to find other material for my religion
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Triple Zero on June 29, 2007, 04:07:59 pm
what is "general semantics" ?

i probably read about it and know it already, just have no idea what the term is referring to?
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cramulus on June 29, 2007, 04:17:12 pm
what is "general semantics" ?

i probably read about it and know it already, just have no idea what the term is referring to?

General Semantics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_semantics), fathered by Korzybski, is a push to use language in a precise objective way. It's what led to e-prime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E-prime).

In short (really short) it suggests that we should stop saying that things "are" something else. For example, a statement like "The PD Forums are full of cock and repost" contains fallacies because parts of it are cock and repost, but it's not 100% cock&repost 100% of the time, as the sentence implies.

the phrase "the map is not the territory" is part of this body of thought.

I'm sure some of the MaybeLogic people around here can explain better. I'm unclear on the difference between e-prime and general semantics.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Forteetu on June 29, 2007, 05:51:53 pm
In short (really short) it suggests that we should stop saying that things "are" something else. For example, a statement like "The PD Forums are full of cock and repost" contains fallacies because parts of it are cock and repost, but it's not 100% cock&repost 100% of the time, as the sentence implies.

the phrase "the map is not the territory" is part of this body of thought.

I'm sure some of the MaybeLogic people around here can explain better. I'm unclear on the difference between e-prime and general semantics.


Yeh, that's the brunt of it. I see it as the realization that our use of language has HUGE impact on our perception of reality. Language is a primary factor in our interaction and interpretation of our world. So how much do we realise our own use of language is reinforcing restrictions or un-supported beliefs? How self-defeatist, or contradictory, or whatever else ... is our use of language? General semantics, to me, is a study of how we perceive and influence our own use of language and how that in turn changes our reality.

In discussions on this subject RAW (I think it was him I heard say it) made mention that it was easier to discuss issues of quantum physics in the native american indian language of Hope'. The langauge and its relation to the universe simply made it easier to discuss.

As in e-prime, making the change from "The chair is wood." to "The chair appears wood." seems minor, but has incredible implications when applied consistently.

Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Iron Sulfide on June 29, 2007, 06:43:05 pm
In the vein of RAW hero worship:

maybe we should endevor to thwart this in the first-strike way,
by creating a completely fictitious biography of him for those that
would try to investigate his life for , blah blah blah.

[irony] it seems like something he would do/want.

*****

8-circuit Mottle:
[in the event that someone is in question or dispute about what "the" modle is
go here: http://deoxy.org/8circuit.htm]

now, the problems for 7 and 8 are?

with the non-local 8th circuit, i see the obvious impirical obsticles.
(to me, it basically tastes like Satori)

the 7th, neurogenetic, though is garnering scraps and bits of objectivish,
seemingly coherent, but still disjointed pieces of supporting evidence.
the genetic tape, in-and-of-itself is a memory/data-base. it could be more
than possible to become aware of the specific electromagnetic orientation
that creates the syntax of your genome, and view it in some subjective manner.

of course, this is idle speculation, as i have no method to deliver results.
and the reason i started this off with the phrase "---mottle" is that each successive
circuit you arrive at MUST NEED the previous circuits; whereby, the circuit would not be something to be thought of independantly.

if someone had some outlandish trip on DMT/Harmala concoction, that activated
aspects of their awareness that are characteristic of the "7th," wouldn't their
1-4(maybe5) circuits tinge and tint and, perhaps, direct everything successive?

not to even mention the 6th circuit. i won't argue with the concept of increasing self awareness, and thereby achieving greater ease in self-change, but it begs too many questions and enters an infinite regress. can you reprogram the part of your that is capable of reprogramming yourself? how? in what way(s)? in better language: can you alter the manner in which you make alterations?

i have no answers.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Triple Zero on June 29, 2007, 07:36:04 pm
In discussions on this subject RAW (I think it was him I heard say it) made mention that it was easier to discuss issues of quantum physics in the native american indian language of Hope'. The langauge and its relation to the universe simply made it easier to discuss.

RAW said some very far-fetched and untrue things about quantum physics, so i advise you to take this as well with a grain of salt.

for example, Quantum Mechanica basically created a very new branch of mathematics, a new language in a way, and it is still fucking hard to discuss, even in the language specifically designed for it.

(as i heard from friends who had to take courses in it, the basic thing physics and astronomy students learn about Quantum Physics is this new type of math. no practical examples or whatever, as long as you can keep your head straight while wrapping your tensors around the wave equation (or something), it's bound to come in handy a few years later when you're actually (still not) learning about practical stuff)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LHX on June 30, 2007, 12:40:09 am
this thread is good


LMNO's debunking is full of win
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Slarti on June 30, 2007, 01:28:30 am
In many ways, I have the same feelings for the Principia as I do Illuminatus!.

Both created long-lasting bubbles in my pineal gland which has caused infinite merry spirals and subspirals in my life.

But in rereading Illuminatus, I can't help but feel it's a little outdated. The details of the revolution that Wilson talked about involved things like white men sleeping with black women. His characters thought that was pretty kinky. Hippies learning to sympathize with cops. etc.

I grew up with parents who grew up in the 60s (though were not hippies). Peace love and understanding were in the background of my childhood, so Wilson & Shea's revolution doesn't seem that shocking to me as it might have on their original audience.

Then the Principia -- same thing. I feel like the core "religion disguised as a joke / joke disguised as a religion" was probably very fresh in the 60s, but we're living in the era of subgenii, pastafarians, last tuesdayists, cthulhu cults, and all sorts of other malarky. If Discordia is going to bloom in the coming decades, it needs a fresh coat of paint.

Are we the ones who will give it that? It would be kind of egotistical to think so, and probably not. But there are some memetic masterminds here, and I feel that the snowball which becomes an avalanche could very well be thrown here on this forum.

So whether we "rewrite the PD" or masturbate about the black iron prison or just post retarded MS Paint pictures, I think this is the place to be.


okay i jumped into this thread late but feel the need to applaud this post for being more full of win than anything i've read this week.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Forteetu on June 30, 2007, 04:21:48 am
now, the problems for 7 and 8 are?

with the non-local 8th circuit, i see the obvious impirical obsticles.
(to me, it basically tastes like Satori)

the 7th, neurogenetic, though is garnering scraps and bits of objectivish,
seemingly coherent, but still disjointed pieces of supporting evidence.
the genetic tape, in-and-of-itself is a memory/data-base. it could be more
than possible to become aware of the specific electromagnetic orientation
that creates the syntax of your genome, and view it in some subjective manner.

of course, this is idle speculation, as i have no method to deliver results.
and the reason i started this off with the phrase "---mottle" is that each successive
circuit you arrive at MUST NEED the previous circuits; whereby, the circuit would not be something to be thought of independantly.

if someone had some outlandish trip on DMT/Harmala concoction, that activated
aspects of their awareness that are characteristic of the "7th," wouldn't their
1-4(maybe5) circuits tinge and tint and, perhaps, direct everything successive?

not to even mention the 6th circuit. i won't argue with the concept of increasing self awareness, and thereby achieving greater ease in self-change, but it begs too many questions and enters an infinite regress. can you reprogram the part of your that is capable of reprogramming yourself? how? in what way(s)? in better language: can you alter the manner in which you make alterations?

i have no answers.

I can honestly say that I do not believe I have ever had a 7th circuit experience, one I would refer to as being able to tap the Akashic records. I'll limit any of my expression on the 7th and 8th as total theory and conjecture as I have no first hand experience to deal with.

As for the 6th, can the programmer be re-programmed? Of this, I do have first hand experience over the past 10 years or so of personal development. To this I say HELL YES! and I would refer you to RAW's discourse on "Who is the Master?" also available on YouTUBE in a clip (blogged on my MySpace for easy reference). Self-programming is a recursive function by definition.

Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cramulus on June 30, 2007, 07:01:53 am
EDITED OUT NM
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Forteetu on June 30, 2007, 07:13:18 am
EDITED OUT NM

awww ... quit it, I'm gettin' all moist over here
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Forteetu on June 30, 2007, 07:19:35 am

RAW said some very far-fetched and untrue things about quantum physics, so i advise you to take this as well with a grain of salt.

for example, Quantum Mechanica basically created a very new branch of mathematics, a new language in a way, and it is still fucking hard to discuss, even in the language specifically designed for it.

I hear you. Simply put tho, this is an example of how changing language can change perspective. Now its totally up to you to find what is effective or useful in any of that. But just a realisation that our language is another tool to use in the kit. From my experience, I say it appears to be a quite powerful one.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Triple Zero on June 30, 2007, 03:52:51 pm
yeah i can get behind the idea, i in fact heard about *actual* linguistic/anthopologic scientific evidence to support this fact.
it's just a shame that, imo, RAW has here and there taken a bit of an artistic license with some of his examples/empirical evidence. now of his more "serious" books, the non-fiction, i have only read "prometheus rising". on the one hand he seems to take the topic he's discussing very seriously and wants to present it as proven fact (in way, at least), but on the other hand he provides no references whatsoever.

the actual evidence i learned about, in my one trimester studying AI, i followed a course about linguistics and they told of some sort of tribe that didn't have words for "left" "right" "behind" "front", etc, but their words for pointing out a direction were more "absolute", like "north", "south" and so on.
first they were interviewed to give driving directions in their native language, and indeed, they only used absolutes to point out the directions, which gave some confusion with english speaking people sometimes.
but the most interesting experiment was, they were in a laboratory that had a table to one wall, and another table to a wall at 90 degrees of the first.
now they had two test groups, one group of that tribe and another of (i think) english-speakers. they placed an L-shaped object on one of the tables and asked the test-subjects to place the object in the same orientation on the other table.
and lo, most english speakers rotated the object 90 degrees, to make sure it had the same relative orientation to the wall the table was placed on, while the native/tribal people simply translated the object so that it would retain the same absolute orientation.

ok it's not as cool as the "wow these indians would be amazing quantum physicists" story, but at least it clearly demonstrates that, in a limited sense, your perception of reality is indeed formed partially by language.

btw i can't immediately provide you with a reference for this story either (though i saw the experiment happen on video), so my point is almost just as weak as RAWs :) i could probably dig it up though (with enough effort), and it comes from a reputable scientific source.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Forteetu on June 30, 2007, 04:03:28 pm
ok it's not as cool as the "wow these indians would be amazing quantum physicists" story, but at least it clearly demonstrates that, in a limited sense, your perception of reality is indeed formed partially by language.

btw i can't immediately provide you with a reference for this story either (though i saw the experiment happen on video), so my point is almost just as weak as RAWs :) i could probably dig it up though (with enough effort), and it comes from a reputable scientific source.

I wouldn't worry about digging it up. I mean is just a fact after all. The only *real* references I tend to count on are those of personal experience anyway. I think in the long run tho, we're on the same page.

Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Iron Sulfide on June 30, 2007, 06:46:29 pm
can you alter the manner in which you make alterations?

i have no answers.
As for the 6th, can the programmer be re-programmed? Of this, I do have first hand experience over the past 10 years or so of personal development. To this I say HELL YES! and I would refer you to RAW's discourse on "Who is the Master?" also available on YouTUBE in a clip (blogged on my MySpace for easy reference). Self-programming is a recursive function by definition.



it wasn't "can you re/program yourself."

self help books are evident of that. yoga is evident of that.

waking up at a time you are unused to over the period of a few
weeks for a new job/school/some forgein agent are examples of self-reprogramming.

my problem (and RAW adresses this in the first 4 circuits in Prometheus Rising)
is that the circuits are NOT SEPERATE. they are cummulative.

by his reasoning (and i don't think it is invalid), sociosexual moral making circuit (IV) is impinged upon by the semantic circuit's (III) dominant symbol set and intellectual taboo,
which is inturn tinged with the Territorial (II) programming of early childhood with overall automatic responses dictated by one's survival imprint (I).

i.e. someone with a fucking Swote set-up for their Semantic Self that writes books and
bnlah blhah bvlat but has a "negetive" survival security imprint will nigh invariably back down if simply badgered enough.

but then he ignores this from the 5th circuit on. neurosomatic bliss "overrides" the
archaic tetragram, self-programming allows you to bliss-out like a push-button (as with anything non-bliss as well), neurogenetic allows you to think of carl jung's lifework as nothing more than footnotes...

but it's cumulateive. even if one "reformats" themselse.

so my open-ended, socratic query is "in what ways can you alter the ways in which you alter things?"    or to use RAW's joke, "how do you count the donkey that you are riding on?"
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Forteetu on June 30, 2007, 07:49:16 pm

it wasn't "can you re/program yourself."

self help books are evident of that. yoga is evident of that.

waking up at a time you are unused to over the period of a few
weeks for a new job/school/some forgein agent are examples of self-reprogramming.

my problem (and RAW adresses this in the first 4 circuits in Prometheus Rising)
is that the circuits are NOT SEPERATE. they are cummulative.

by his reasoning (and i don't think it is invalid), sociosexual moral making circuit (IV) is impinged upon by the semantic circuit's (III) dominant symbol set and intellectual taboo,
which is inturn tinged with the Territorial (II) programming of early childhood with overall automatic responses dictated by one's survival imprint (I).

i.e. someone with a fucking Swote set-up for their Semantic Self that writes books and
bnlah blhah bvlat but has a "negetive" survival security imprint will nigh invariably back down if simply badgered enough.

Nothing I would disagree with here

Quote
but then he ignores this from the 5th circuit on. neurosomatic bliss "overrides" the
archaic tetragram, self-programming allows you to bliss-out like a push-button (as with anything non-bliss as well), neurogenetic allows you to think of carl jung's lifework as nothing more than footnotes...

but it's cumulateive. even if one "reformats" themselse.

I tend to think of the entire stack of 8 circuits as a cumaltive model, with a correspondancy between 1-4 and 5-8. Whether this is a traditional way of looking at the model I'm not sure. It's the one that seems to work for me tho.

Quote
so my open-ended, socratic query is "in what ways can you alter the ways in which you alter things?"    or to use RAW's joke, "how do you count the donkey that you are riding on?"

Maybe I can express it this way ....
A lot of this happened to me before I became aware of what the 8 circuit model is, but I think its easier to relate to it that way now. Before I was aware of anything other than a drug-induced, escape mechanism form of 5th circuit experience, I was completely lost and unware in the gameplay of the first 4 circuits. I carried a lot of ill baggage in those circuits as well. Eventually, awakening to a more "positive" 5th circuit experience, I was able to begin to see the first 4 circuits for the game they were and take them more lightly.

However, I was still stuck to the placement setting on the front/back , left/right , up/down axis of these circuits which was dictated by the nurture/nature and specific circumstances of my upbringing. In essence, I was now learning new coping mechanisms to deal with the action/reaction chain. I was still responding to many things in a similar fashion, but was learning to express those responses in different ways. The input/output routines were all basically the same, I had just learned to adjust their formatting to be more suitable to the end-user.

When I began to push the boundaries of this concept, I began to ask those questions leading to "changing filters", self-programming, re-tuning the settings of each circuit axis. It was around this time that I also shifted from more eastern philosophies to studies in occultism. Before actually learning what the 6th circuit was, I found that I had already begun to channel the personal energy raising practices of ritual magic into the effort of re-programming. Basically, what I would consider shamanistic paganism. Like in everything else, I find a lot of scrub & shiite in the pagan ritual magic circles. However I have to say that in my experience, I have found a lot of very effective techiques buried amongst the subterfuge. As time has gone on, idetification, resolution and change of any issues becomes a faster and faster cycle. The only proof I have is my own experience.

So who's programming the programmer? Hell if I know. Who was driving this boat before I knew I was? Or am I? Who is the Master that makes the grass green? If I go looking for myself, who's doing the looking?

(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f21/erasmus042/forums/burro.jpg)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Iron Sulfide on July 01, 2007, 06:41:05 pm
nest question:

have you ever read finnegan's wake?
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Forteetu on July 01, 2007, 11:48:20 pm
nest question:

have you ever read finnegan's wake?

Gee ... I write that big, long posted reply and I get back ..."have I read this book" .... mmm, disappointing

and no, I know of it, but never read it
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Hoopla! on July 05, 2007, 01:30:50 pm
This is the best thread I've ever read.

Mucho good stuff herein.

Concerning this:
For me, it's the primate territorialism (Circuits 1-4) combined with its opposite (Circuits 5-8)

Biggest flaw: curcuits 7-8 are so far out there, they might as well be science fiction.

I think strangely enough, my favourite summation of Leary's circuits is the bastardized version on the concordia guy's blog - there were only five.  All the circuits from 5-8 were grouped together . . . and if you think about it the definitions of 5-8 are murky at best, and muddled at worst.  I think its fair to say that they really are all one multifaceted circuit.

And in defence of Leary and RAW, neither of them ever wanted you to take the circuits too seriously either, in fact RAW moved around the 7th and 8th circuits whenever the mood seemed to strike him.  Need I repeat:  The 'menu' is not the 'meal'.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 05, 2007, 11:50:06 pm
I'm not sure that this is a discussion of Discordianism, as much as a discussion of the philosophies of some Discordians. There's no evidence that Thornley and Hill, the main authors of the PD subscribed to all, most or even some of Bob Wilson's general philosophy. Bob had some good ideas, and some not so good ideas, same for Leary. But, their philosophical positions aren't the core themes of Discordianism... I don't think.

The core tenant of Discordianism, as far as I can tell (if such a thing exists) is this:

We can be serious, we can be silly. We can look at the world around us and see SERIOUS Issues, or we can look at the world around us and see the completely insane mass of Discord, Confusion and Bureaucracy that many of us think we see. We can be Ordered or Disordered, but in either place, the Discordian knows that they put themselves in that mental state.

The Words of the Foolish and the Words of the Wise, are not far apart in Discordian eyes.

We can talk about evolution versus creation and we can look at the order of the taxonomic tree. However, the Discordian (I think) should be able to see that the taxonomic tree is simply a game of order... not an Absolute Truth. We should be able to examine philosophies like Determinism, and see them as an interpretation of data, on an ordered grid. The same for Leary's 8-circuits... its not truth, just a set of labels which might be useful for some purposes.

The difference between a Discordian and a cabbage, in my opinion... Is that they can see life as the Art of Playing Games, games of order, games of disorder and games that switch back and forth. None of the rest of Bob's philosophy is required to be a Discordian. I think a lot of his philosophies appeal to Discordians, I think a lot of his philosophies shaped the current world of Discord... I think that he will someday be lauded as one of the most important philosophers of our time, someday. But, Bob didn't have the Truth. He never claimed to have the Truth. The claim he made, at the end, was only that "the Universe is far more complex than I will ever understand".

To be able to write dozens of books about philosophy and in the end, still admit that you don't know jack... That is Discordian!
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Hoopla! on July 06, 2007, 12:36:24 am
I'm not sure that this is a discussion of Discordianism, as much as a discussion of the philosophies of some Discordians.

(http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/9784/mirrormj2.png)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: ͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅ ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on July 06, 2007, 12:39:26 am
ok it's not as cool as the "wow these indians would be amazing quantum physicists" story, but at least it clearly demonstrates that, in a limited sense, your perception of reality is indeed formed partially by language.

btw i can't immediately provide you with a reference for this story either (though i saw the experiment happen on video), so my point is almost just as weak as RAWs :) i could probably dig it up though (with enough effort), and it comes from a reputable scientific source.

I wouldn't worry about digging it up. I mean is just a fact after all. The only *real* references I tend to count on are those of personal experience anyway. I think in the long run tho, we're on the same page.



Quote from: Laurentian University

The primary experimental method to study the "presence" is to place the person in a simulated "cave", an acoustic chamber, where they are blindfolded and sit in the dark for about 30 min. The person wears a helmet or a collection of solenoids arranged around the head (like a crown) through which complex magnetic fields are generated. By applying specific patterns of weak magnetic fields that imitate the brains own activities, about 80% of the normal population report the experience of "another". Only specific patterns produce the experience; a reversed presentation of the pattern does not. People exposed to sham-field conditions rarely report the experience.

What we have found

We have found that: 1) the verbal label (usually supplied by the culture) the person places upon the experience strongly affects how it is recalled even within a few seconds after the end of the experiment...

emphasis added

Source (http://oldwebsite.laurentian.ca/neurosci/_research/mystical.htm)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 06, 2007, 12:58:48 am
I'm not sure that this is a discussion of Discordianism, as much as a discussion of the philosophies of some Discordians.

(http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/9784/mirrormj2.png)

You Marxist!!!!!
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Forteetu on July 06, 2007, 02:45:20 am
ok it's not as cool as the "wow these indians would be amazing quantum physicists" story, but at least it clearly demonstrates that, in a limited sense, your perception of reality is indeed formed partially by language.

btw i can't immediately provide you with a reference for this story either (though i saw the experiment happen on video), so my point is almost just as weak as RAWs :) i could probably dig it up though (with enough effort), and it comes from a reputable scientific source.

I wouldn't worry about digging it up. I mean is just a fact after all. The only *real* references I tend to count on are those of personal experience anyway. I think in the long run tho, we're on the same page.



Quote from: Laurentian University

The primary experimental method to study the "presence" is to place the person in a simulated "cave", an acoustic chamber, where they are blindfolded and sit in the dark for about 30 min. The person wears a helmet or a collection of solenoids arranged around the head (like a crown) through which complex magnetic fields are generated. By applying specific patterns of weak magnetic fields that imitate the brains own activities, about 80% of the normal population report the experience of "another". Only specific patterns produce the experience; a reversed presentation of the pattern does not. People exposed to sham-field conditions rarely report the experience.

What we have found

We have found that: 1) the verbal label (usually supplied by the culture) the person places upon the experience strongly affects how it is recalled even within a few seconds after the end of the experiment...

emphasis added

Source (http://oldwebsite.laurentian.ca/neurosci/_research/mystical.htm)


Absolutely, the label applied to an experience has a massive impact on how it is recalled afterwards. Whether this is moments or years later. I also believe that that by changing the labels we use, we can change our perception of events, even those occuring years in the past. The truth is not the truth. Perceptions and how we choose to label them are the tools we have to work with. My preference has always been towards the experience rather than wrote knowledge or library building.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Shinigami715 on August 14, 2007, 09:35:23 pm
The core elements of Discordianism, as far as i can tell...


Are that it is not Dada, with no meaning in our creation, but more Chaos, without intended meaning, though there is ALWAYS meaning. If art has no meaning, the world has no meaning, but if art means fish, then the Cao is pleased.

And thats what it all revolves around. Puns that revolve around meaning, that revolve around other puns, ultimately leading to a complex definition of a double entendre universe. It is in constant conflict with the world of SET definition, or Order, but at the same time, could not exist without it. Its also based on cultural and social circumstances that also have double meanings. This is part of a little Discordian vortex i call the Quintuple Entendre. It could be called "Literary Numerology", but instead of the Order-based numerology, theres nothing that QE really revolves around, like 23, or any real POINT to understanding it. Its purpose is mostly to be funny, and discordians would consider it a religion, because a discordian, when truly wrapped and warped in the Goddess' embrace, would find EVERYTHING funny.

Case and point... A penis is a organ, so someone would say "Im gonna go play my organ ..."  The first entendre. Its not something we wouldnt see somewhere on the forums. Then someone would say "Im gonna play my KAZOO!!!" Same idea, but then, not really, because at that point he might not be talking about the same thing, or he might just say it to be FUNNY. Then "If he plays his kazoo, im gonna kill a motherfucker." The leap still hasnt been made, because he could still be talking about either masturbating, or playing an actual kazoo. The difference here, is that now theres the issue of someone actually being mad, or just fucking around, or whatever. The more intentions, the more possiblities for the next move. Then, "IMMA GO ALL REDNECK ON YOUR ASSES AND PULL OUT MY BANJO." Fourth entendre, allowing for great WTFing and giving the greatest number of possibilities for the fifth entendre. Lets say it was "IMM GO ALL BANJO ON YOUR ASSES AND PULL OUT MY REDNECK." The fifth entendre allows for great lulz, while also being a 'religious' practice.


So basically, ambiguity is a big discordian theme. You wouldn't think it by looking at us, but we're COY motherfuckers.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 15, 2007, 12:59:00 pm
Shin, I like the majority of your post, as it reminds us that, apart from the pseudo-philosophy of the OP, the Lulz should be recognized as important; not only that, but you seemed to hone in on the kind of lail we tend to enjoy.

However, the entire post was almost derailed by the opening salvo, simply because of what looks like a misunderstanding.

Dada, as an art movement, wasn't based on "no meaning".  It was strongly politically (anti-war) based, and revolved around irrationality and a rejection of the "rules" of art at the time (early 1900s).

While I suppose you could argue that since the "rules" of art placed a value on the "meaning" of the piece, then Dada was art without meaning, I feel that only meant "meaning" in a very limited, traditional sense.  The Dadists created with a purpose, a "meta-meaning" if you will.


Anyway, apart from that, good post.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: AFK on August 15, 2007, 01:27:03 pm
So does this mean we have another punner on the boards?   :mrgreen:

Sweet!
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Shinigami715 on August 15, 2007, 03:09:11 pm

While I suppose you could argue that since the "rules" of art placed a value on the "meaning" of the piece, then Dada was art without meaning, I feel that only meant "meaning" in a very limited, traditional sense.  The Dadists created with a purpose, a "meta-meaning" if you will.


Thats how i look at it. Plus, whenever i meet a Neo-Dadist, i can safely assume they have no intention for anything, at all, ever... but its debatable. Dada was PROBABLY not the best example, but i couldnt think of anyone who made less sense off the cuff.

And i knew that opening line would keep people from reading the rest of a n00bs post. Thank you for getting past it.

QE IS MUCH WIN! *writes note to self on how to WIN for further occasions.*
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 15, 2007, 03:10:44 pm
Considering a "Neo-Dadist" wouldn't have much of an opinion on WWI, I would have to agree with you.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 15, 2007, 03:18:10 pm

Dada, as an art movement, wasn't based on "no meaning".  It was strongly politically (anti-war) based, and revolved around irrationality and a rejection of the "rules" of art at the time (early 1900s).

While I suppose you could argue that since the "rules" of art placed a value on the "meaning" of the piece, then Dada was art without meaning, I feel that only meant "meaning" in a very limited, traditional sense.  The Dadists created with a purpose, a "meta-meaning" if you will.

One of the other intents of Dada seems to have involved breaking down the separation between the artist and the audience. To make the artist and audience a inextricable mix, where the audience itself was necessary to the creation of the art. Rather than the art being presented to the audience, the art existed in the neurological system of the audience, the audience's consciousness because the canvas and the "dada works" became the brushes and the pigment.

This seems very similar to how many Discordians feel about their "religious rituals" ;-)

Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 15, 2007, 03:31:45 pm
yeah.

Considering Shin's response, i think we all generally agree on that.

Which means I'm still puzzled about that second paragraph.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Shinigami715 on August 15, 2007, 11:55:46 pm

Dada, as an art movement, wasn't based on "no meaning".  It was strongly politically (anti-war) based, and revolved around irrationality and a rejection of the "rules" of art at the time (early 1900s).

While I suppose you could argue that since the "rules" of art placed a value on the "meaning" of the piece, then Dada was art without meaning, I feel that only meant "meaning" in a very limited, traditional sense.  The Dadists created with a purpose, a "meta-meaning" if you will.

One of the other intents of Dada seems to have involved breaking down the separation between the artist and the audience. To make the artist and audience a inextricable mix, where the audience itself was necessary to the creation of the art. Rather than the art being presented to the audience, the art existed in the neurological system of the audience, the audience's consciousness because the canvas and the "dada works" became the brushes and the pigment.

This seems very similar to how many Discordians feel about their "religious rituals" ;-)



The more i think about it, Dada was a terrible example... I have my biases about Dada, and the results of the artistic movement always left me very unsatisfied, and i felt the movement sort of ate itself while trying to accomplish its goals... At the same time, Discordian is the same, the difference being that we've survived with alot more credibility. I guess i've been thinking about Dada the way most people think of Discordianism, and i think i might be doing myself a great disservice.

My POINT with the statement, was the Discordianism has meaning without intention, and follows up with meaning and LESS intention, resulting in a very flexible meme. Dada, on the other hand, is little meaning, with ALOT of intention, and is very inflexible, and usually does not result anything like a meme. (Ironic, because the one that isnt really TRYING to do anything gets around, while the one trying to change things cant move at all)

Though, considering pop art, and Warhol's artistic juxtaposition of everyday things, and then the juxtaposition of his art into everyday LIFE, and then those lives put on screen, and that art being used to define characters... Pop Art seems alot more viral, and alot more Discordian. If there was some kind of combination of the mindfuckery of Dada and the virality of pop art, we'd either end up with Discordian art, or just fucking Discordianism, which some of us already consider an artform. (In which case, we need to start a fucking art revolution. Theres money in that shit)

Also, where's the ole' Professor? I wanna know if i thinks QE and Lulz are actually themes of Disco, or just a side effect.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cramulus on August 16, 2007, 01:44:35 am
Also, where's the ole' Professor? I wanna know if i thinks QE and Lulz are actually themes of Disco, or just a side effect.

            Being THE AUTHORITY on Discordja,
           I'm glad you asked me that, Shinigami.
                                 /
(http://www.cs.purdue.edu/people/images/faculty/spaf.jpg)

oh gawdess, just kidding :lulz:

Part of this thread has been examining what's "core" and what's not. Being an incredibly subjective religion, all we have is what we can all agree on. And I think pretty much All Discordians would agree Lulz are part of the "point".

As for the Quintuple Entendre, yeah too. I think confusing games which play with meaning are a pretty Discordian practice. To me. Everyday pedestrian reality is filled with assumptions, and I think it's good work to shake them up now and then.

Here's one of mine:

When in very altered states, I enjoy a conversation game which is impossible to explain in text, much less demonstrate (I'm also breaking a major rule by explaining it straight out). But the basic gist is that as you're speaking, you make abrupt changes of subject, embark on tangents mid sentence, contradict yourself, and then make a completely unrelated point. As the conversation goes on, relate back to previous points to make it sound like there's some grand conclusion you're leading up to. The object is sort of
A) make your listener follow what you're trying to say
B) get them to realize the nature of the game you're playing - without explaining it
C) *bonus points* turn it around on you

I had one guy hanging on my every word as I explained how quantum physics and history are the exact same discipline - and the Muppet Show's recurring themes were actually a cultural replication of Schr??dinger's cat experiment - and that we only perceive things because of the illusion of time - and all sorts of bizarre cutups like that. The trick here is to mix in some actual sense with it so it seems somewhat coherent. (I think we called this the Buffer Overload technique?)

Finally he interrupted me and tried to clarify. After a long diatribe, he finished with something like, "So essentially you're saying that any given particle is the size of an eon." I said, "No, an eon is a unit of time, not space." "No, they're both subjective." Is that what we were really talking about? Jesus... as I wrapped my brain around what he was trying to communicate, I realized he HAD me - I had fallen for his verbal trolling and was trying to make sense out of the gibberish he was saying. It literally knocked me on my ass laughing.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Shinigami715 on August 16, 2007, 03:46:40 am
Also, where's the ole' Professor? I wanna know if i thinks QE and Lulz are actually themes of Disco, or just a side effect.

            Being THE AUTHORITY on Discordja,
           I'm glad you asked me that, Shinigami.
                               


Its your thread, so im guessing you gave it a good 15 seconds more thought than everybody else. Besides, with a name like Professor, i should hold you on an unreasonably high pedestal, like a proper asshat would.

Actually, i was waiting for the, "The n00b turned this into an fsking art discussion."

So really, mindfucks are central to disco, that was pretty much given... And i think lulz are kinda required, for it to be Discordian.




















...and the Muppet Show's recurring themes were actually a cultural replication of Schr??dinger's cat experiment...


You saying this not troof?
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cramulus on August 16, 2007, 04:56:51 am
oh that reminds me. Have you met Dr. Durden?


Paging Dr. Hunter S Durden
                                /
(http://www.firstbaptistheath.com/clientimages/25752/loudspeaker.gif)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: PeregrineBF on August 16, 2007, 11:14:59 am
I haven't read the whole thread, my HDD died and I'm just getting back to this forum.
Anyway, I think Discordianism is easiest to analyze/define with some concepts from Chaos theory in mathematics.
Most importantly is the concept of a phase space.
A phase space is a representation of a system. Let's take a gas in a box. Each molecule has a position and a velocity, which can be represented by a vector (X, Y, Z position, a, b, c vector end position.) Thus we need 6 dimensions to represent all possible states a molecule can be in. (For position+velocity only, of course.) We can plot the state of a molecule by the movement of a point through this phase space.
Then we add another molecule. That adds 6 more dimensions, so one point can still convey all possible states of the gas.
Eventually the phase space gets really, really big.

Discordianism is the religion of the belief in the phase space of all belief systems. Discordians each believe something different, and we all know it. Some don't admit it, of course, but that's a point in the phase space too. It would be interesting but impractical to model the dynamical system of human belief, but it does SEEM chaotic.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 16, 2007, 01:07:13 pm
Um... yeah.


Wouldn't it be easier to say "all is one", and stop the conversation right there?


Also:  Cram, I do that stuff all the time.  It's usually the only way to keep me interested at parties. 

It's also an ancient SSOOKN technique, also known as "The Semantic Law of Fives Smack Down".
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: hunter s.durden on August 16, 2007, 03:37:57 pm
I hear my name over a loudspeaker.

This wrests me from an alcoholic binge, which wrested me from a month long sobriety binge. It's why I've been gone.

I'm not quite sure why I've been awakened, or called a doctor for that matter, as I thought the general consensus was "a bum like him don't know shit." When a Professor calls you a doctor, though, you try and deliver. Ego triumphs.

Once again I am confronted with the "really real" reality that has been plaguing me for the last two months. A deluge of surrealist, art major, and nonsensical bullshit has hit, and it's been asserted as some sort of half-assed New-Age philosophical truth. A torrent of "bullshit" and "blah-blah" made over to be a hidden truth, that I will never understand. Oh well, my ramblings aren't much better, perhaps worse.

And so, another n00b stands at the doorstep. A college textbook in hand, and a mind full of revolutionary delusions. I'm forced to be impessed by a lexicon of wisdom and an idealistic attitude. Another in a line of brilliant pupils that have something to teach the impoverished masses. Big words and wannabe actions.

And I weep.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 16, 2007, 03:40:07 pm
Goddamn.


HST, as your lawyer, I strongly advise you to go on more drinking binges.  It turns you into a poet, man.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: hunter s.durden on August 16, 2007, 03:57:19 pm
I don't know what part part of that rambling mess was poetic, but I will do my part to hit the drugs a bit harder.
For you buddy.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 16, 2007, 03:59:08 pm
I don't know what part part of that rambling mess was poetic, but I will do my part to hit the drugs a bit harder.
For you buddy.

Hit those drugs, they deserved and they bring it on themselves!
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 16, 2007, 04:00:04 pm
I mean, just look at the way those drugs are dressed.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: hunter s.durden on August 16, 2007, 04:04:58 pm
I mean, just look at the way those drugs are dressed.

"You know you wanted up that nose, didn't you, you whorish perks?"
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: AFK on August 16, 2007, 04:06:19 pm
I mean, just look at the way those drugs are dressed.

"You know you wanted up that nose, didn't you, you whorish perks?"

How can you use such language on a Heroine?
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 16, 2007, 04:07:50 pm
I mean, just look at the way those drugs are dressed.

Yeah, I swear those little baggies are pretty much see-through.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: hunter s.durden on August 16, 2007, 04:08:51 pm
I mean, just look at the way those drugs are dressed.

"You know you wanted up that nose, didn't you, you whorish perks?"

How can you use such language on a Heroine?

I'm a registered Republican.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 16, 2007, 04:17:29 pm
I mean, just look at the way those drugs are dressed.

"You know you wanted up that nose, didn't you, you whorish perks?"

How can you use such language on a Heroine?

I'm a registered Republican.

Well then as long as you praise Jesus afterward, I suspect you can do whatever you want to the Heroine ;-)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: hunter s.durden on August 16, 2007, 04:19:02 pm
I mean, just look at the way those drugs are dressed.

"You know you wanted up that nose, didn't you, you whorish perks?"

How can you use such language on a Heroine?

I'm a registered Republican.

Well then as long as you praise Jesus afterward, I suspect you can do whatever you want to the Heroine ;-)

Bingo.

As long as he gets his ups, I'm good to go.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 16, 2007, 04:22:14 pm
Moll Flanders revisited, ITT.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 16, 2007, 04:36:14 pm
Moll Flanders revisited, ITT.

IN FLANDERS FIELDS the moles burrow
Under the crosses row on row,
Their little mounds and tunneled ways
have carved the land in just 5 days
not seen except by corpses below.

...

Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: hunter s.durden on August 16, 2007, 04:48:33 pm
Thank Jesus.
We're back to pretentious poetry.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 16, 2007, 05:15:29 pm
Thank Jesus.
We're back to pretentious poetry.

Pretentious Poetry Puns thankyouverymuch!
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: B_M_W on August 16, 2007, 06:11:06 pm
Moll Flanders revisited, ITT.

IN FLANDERS FIELDS the moles burrow
Under the crosses row on row,
Their little mounds and tunneled ways
have carved the land in just 5 days
not seen except by corpses below.

...



Nice.

I actually like that poem, FYI.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: hunter s.durden on August 16, 2007, 06:13:57 pm
I'll live my life by that then...

Just as soon as you explain its pertinence...
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 16, 2007, 06:17:58 pm
I'll live my life by that then...

Just as soon as you explain its pertinence...

pertinence? pertinence? Since when does a Pun need pertinence?
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: hunter s.durden on August 16, 2007, 06:20:43 pm
I'll live my life by that then...

Just as soon as you explain its pertinence...

pertinence? pertinence? Since when does a Pun need pertinence?

Noone asked you, fuckface.

Unless you're both an Art Major AND a Really Real....
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 16, 2007, 06:38:48 pm
I'll live my life by that then...

Just as soon as you explain its pertinence...

pertinence? pertinence? Since when does a Pun need pertinence?

Noone asked you, fuckface.

Unless you're both an Art Major AND a Really Real....

I was an Art Sergent, but never got to Major... Also, back in my DJ days I had a Reel to Reel, will that cover the second half?

Also, its more fuck tongue, than fuck face... I can't fit my whole face inside there, just the tongue mostly.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Payne on August 16, 2007, 06:42:13 pm
You're just doing it wrong.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 16, 2007, 06:45:46 pm
You're just doing it wrong.

That's what she said too...
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: AFK on August 16, 2007, 06:46:16 pm
You are making the Baby Seal cry.   :cry:
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cramulus on August 16, 2007, 07:10:49 pm
and the seventh seal was broken...
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Chairman Risus on August 16, 2007, 07:19:05 pm
which means it's no longer freshness guaranteed
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 16, 2007, 07:25:44 pm
Tampered containers, ITT.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: AFK on August 16, 2007, 07:32:11 pm
(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a29/RWHN/Image142s.jpg)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 16, 2007, 09:17:07 pm
You are making the Baby Seal cry.   :cry:

(http://www.theinvisiblecollege.com/seal2.jpg)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Payne on August 16, 2007, 09:21:15 pm
"We're never ever ever gonna survive, unless we get a little bit cray-zee!"
                                     /
(http://www.theinvisiblecollege.com/seal2.jpg)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: hunter s.durden on August 16, 2007, 09:39:49 pm
"We're never ever ever gonna survive, unless we get a little bit cray-zee!"
                                     /
(http://www.theinvisiblecollege.com/seal2.jpg)


WIN!!!!!!!!!!

I wish I was a Scot...
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Shinigami715 on August 16, 2007, 09:55:11 pm

(http://www.theinvisiblecollege.com/seal2.jpg)

Black seals are still seals?
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: PeregrineBF on August 17, 2007, 03:27:40 am
"Um... yeah.
Wouldn't it be easier to say "all is one", and stop the conversation right there?"

Not really, since all isn't one. That's silly.
All can be represented by a point traveling through phase space, but the sheer number of dimensions needed to do so is insane.
One needs position, momentum, charge, mass, strong & weak nuclear force, etc. So at least 10 dimensions for each of the 10^80 particles in the universe.
So all is 1/(10^82) and that one keeps jumping around constantly. And it's actually a lot bigger than that.


Let's give religion 4 paramaters:
A, B, C, and dT.
A = Number of Gods believed in.
B = Number of Commandments
C = Average number of small children molested by the clergy, per week.
dT = 0.03 because that's a good number, and it makes what I'm doing next look nice, though that won't change the point in any way whatsoever.

We'll plot points with X, Y, Z co-ordinates as follows:
x'=x+ad(y-x)
y'=y+d(bx-y-zx)
z'=z+d(xy-cz)

We start with 0, then take the output of that and set it to the input, plot it in 3D space, and get a picture of the state of the "religion" as time progresses. Each X, Y, and Z point indicates a different state of theological discussion, the more spread out the graph gets the more the discussion is varying, the more condensed it is the stricter things are.

Polytheism is fun, so let's have 9 gods and 20 major rules. These can vary, of course, but it's simpler to understand if we only vary C.

Now, this is a simple religious structure. Real religions have a LOT more variables. But let's see what a small change can do!

This week an average of 1 kids were molested. Let's take a picture of that plot, shall we? Hue changes based on how fast the point moves, Value based on angle from the viewing plane:
(http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/1945/1kidsmd5.png)
What happens if, instead, 2 kids were molested, on average, per week?
(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3337/2kidsvg2.png)
3:
(http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/9379/3kidsrv4.png)
4:
(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/869/4kidsde4.png)
5:
(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/3383/5kidsvx0.png)
Interesting! The religion has become rather orderly!
6:
(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6978/6kidspr0.png)
Even more so, but look at how different the order is from before!
11:
(http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/7255/11kidsjx4.png)
It goes to a circle until 19....
19:
(http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/5161/19kidstf1.png)
At which point discussion is all over the place, on so many subjects that we can't keep track of it, it's too dispersed.
At 79 or more kids the religion falls apart due to over-molestation. At 0 kids molested it falls apart due to the inability of the priesthood to get off. Without that they all quit and without priests there is no religion anymore.

Now, if this were real the equation would be a LOT bigger with a LOT more variables, but I do believe that the sensitive dependence to initial conditions displayed here would exist, and there's a lot of evidence for that, eg Jesus and Buddha both preached peace, enlightenment, and nonviolence, but Jesus got himself nailed to some over-sized toothpicks and the Christians that followed him eventually started the Crusades.

(A note to math geeks: Yes, that's a Lorenz attractor. I needed a chaotic system with a small number of parameters. I COULD have used a 5th order 3-dimensional quadratic map with 168 parameters, but that would have taken too long.)

So all is one point moving through a very, very high dimensional phase space, in a very chaotic manner. Which really means it's a hell of a lot of different things, just that it's possible to see it as one if you can imagine 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 dimensions or so. Probably more.

So if someone tells you they are seeing that the universe is truly One and that they are One with everything, they are lying.

So, yeah. Discordianism one particular path through the set of all beliefs in the phase space of all beliefs, and unlike most religions our path hits every point in the phase space, though not all with equal frequency.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: guest7654 on August 17, 2007, 03:47:25 am
What?
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 17, 2007, 05:17:17 am

Let's give religion 4 paramaters:
A, B, C, and dT.
A = Number of Gods believed in.
B = Number of Commandments
C = Average number of small children molested by the clergy, per week.
dT = 0.03 because that's a good number, and it makes what I'm doing next look nice, though that won't change the point in any way whatsoever.
...

So, yeah. Discordianism one particular path through the set of all beliefs in the phase space of all beliefs, and unlike most religions our path hits every point in the phase space, though not all with equal frequency.

That was beautiful and completely bullshit. You get Extra Credit!
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Shinigami715 on August 17, 2007, 05:41:28 am
"Um... yeah.
Wouldn't it be easier to say "all is one", and stop the conversation right there?"

Not really, since all isn't one. That's silly.
All can be represented by a point traveling through phase space, but the sheer number of dimensions needed to do so is insane.
One needs position, momentum, charge, mass, strong & weak nuclear force, etc. So at least 10 dimensions for each of the 10^80 particles in the universe.
So all is 1/(10^82) and that one keeps jumping around constantly. And it's actually a lot bigger than that.


Let's give religion 4 paramaters:
A, B, C, and dT.
A = Number of Gods believed in.
B = Number of Commandments
C = Average number of small children molested by the clergy, per week.
dT = 0.03 because that's a good number, and it makes what I'm doing next look nice, though that won't change the point in any way whatsoever.

We'll plot points with X, Y, Z co-ordinates as follows:
x'=x+ad(y-x)
y'=y+d(bx-y-zx)
z'=z+d(xy-cz)

...

So if someone tells you they are seeing that the universe is truly One and that they are One with everything, they are lying.

So, yeah. Discordianism one particular path through the set of all beliefs in the phase space of all beliefs, and unlike most religions our path hits every point in the phase space, though not all with equal frequency.

(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k16/shinigami715/436567.gif)



             Well it makes perfect sense to me.
                    /
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k16/shinigami715/roosternl4.jpg)




              This thread was better with seals.
                              /
(http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k16/shinigami715/Isheasportsman.jpg)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Payne on August 17, 2007, 05:47:51 am
"We're never ever ever gonna survive, unless we get a little bit cray-zee!"
                                     /
(http://www.theinvisiblecollege.com/seal2.jpg)


TOO LATE!

(http://www.bdmlr.org.uk/photos/club.jpg)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: PeregrineBF on August 17, 2007, 07:14:43 am
Of course it's total bullshit, I'm trying to explain Chaos theory and the application thereof to theology in one post. Such oversimplification means everything I said is, in some way, wrong. However, it will give a basic understanding of the underlying concepts (hopefully) and maybe get people to understand more via their own research.
But probably not.
However, I made pretty pictures to go with it, which makes it both easier to understand and more amusing. Robert L Devaney's paper on the Dynamics of Simple Maps would be a good starting point to really understanding this, and I CAN scan it all, there's nothing too complex... (It's undergraduate level math, really.)

For now just copy/paste it and use it as an OMF I guess.

To sum up:
Any given Discordian might believe anything at any point in time (unlike other religions, who's members only believe certain sets of things) but Discordianism as a whole has certain beliefs that are orbiting at least one strange attractor and would make really cool pictures if we could compute that stuff.

Imagine a big box. Each point in the box (X, Y, Z) is one set of religious beliefs. A few thousand/million for the Catholics, a few million for the Jews, etc, etc. Little clouds, and some of them might overlap. But pretty much all those little clouds are confined, they don't spread very far. You don't get Jews who believe in Ramses and Odin, if they do that they aren't Jews.
Discordianism's cloud fills the WHOLE BOX. We can believe ANYTHING. Now, our cloud IS denser at some points. More of us believe in Eris or something similar, so there is a bit of a cluster around the "chaos" side. But I know one Discordian who is a devout Catholic. Goes to church and everything. It might all change next Tuesday, but he's spreading that Discordian cloud out to overlap the others.
Discordians can believe anything, and we know it. This wreaks havoc with finding core beliefs, because some of us are bound to disbelieve the ability of a true Discordian to believe in anything (after all, someone has to not believe that!)...
So I present it as a bit of Chaos theory, since putting it into math makes it easier to understand. It also lets us make pretty pictures and describe things with relation to the Chaos in quantum mechanics and such, which adds even more fun.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 17, 2007, 01:49:45 pm
Pere, it seems you put some amount of thought into that.

However, I also notcied you're over 50 posts, so I'll say this:

That's one of the biggest crocks of shit I've ever seen. 





However, I'll also say this: If I ever come across a Christian forum that contains a higher math section, I'll be cross-posting this.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 17, 2007, 04:33:10 pm
Pere, it seems you put some amount of thought into that.

However, I also notcied you're over 50 posts, so I'll say this:

That's one of the biggest crocks of shit I've ever seen. 





However, I'll also say this: If I ever come across a Christian forum that contains a higher math section, I'll be cross-posting this.

I agree that it is Bullshit, but as the margins of the PD say... Bullshit makes the flowers grow and that is beautiful! I have no problem with a Discordian's explanation being an insane mix of nearly science, sorta theory, muddled models, metaphor and illustrations.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 17, 2007, 06:39:19 pm
Bullshit may make the flowers grown, but a crock of your own shit will give everyon else e.coli.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Shinigami715 on August 17, 2007, 07:07:19 pm
Bullshit may make the flowers grown, but a crock of your own shit will give everyon else e.coli.


Thats going on a t-shirt.


 :lulz:
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 17, 2007, 07:22:27 pm
Gawdamn, I really fucked the typing up on that one.






LMNO
-caught a case of teh horab.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 17, 2007, 07:27:03 pm
Bullshit may make the flowers grown, but a crock of your own shit will give everyon else e.coli.

Even e. coli has its uses ;-)


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070115094108.htm (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/01/070115094108.htm)
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8365 (http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn8365)
http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/19128/ (http://www.technologyreview.com/Biztech/19128/)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 17, 2007, 07:41:48 pm
Boy, you Discordians know how to take the fun out of everything.





LMNO
-Hypocrite.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Mangrove on August 17, 2007, 07:48:56 pm
Gawdamn, I really fucked the typing up on that one.






LMNO
-caught a case of teh horab.

It's ok. I edited it before sending to 'Post Of The Day'.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: PeregrineBF on August 17, 2007, 09:38:25 pm
My theory is true. It's totally useless, of course, since it would require a set of equations that could describe all belief, but if they did exist then I think they would have certain properties, and those properties that they probably have define Discordianism rather nicely.

So, yes, it's bullshit. But it makes pretty pictures, and those are nearly as good as the flowers.
(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/2082/flowerlikema6.th.jpg) (http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=flowerlikema6.jpg)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 18, 2007, 02:00:41 am
My theory is true. It's totally useless, of course, since it would require a set of equations that could describe all belief, but if they did exist then I think they would have certain properties, and those properties that they probably have define Discordianism rather nicely.

So, yes, it's bullshit. But it makes pretty pictures, and those are nearly as good as the flowers.
(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/2082/flowerlikema6.th.jpg) (http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=flowerlikema6.jpg)

Hail Yes!
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cain on August 18, 2007, 02:05:35 pm
I'll live my life by that then...

Just as soon as you explain its pertinence...

pertinence? pertinence? Since when does a Pun need pertinence?

Noone asked you, fuckface.

Unless you're both an Art Major AND a Really Real....

I'm an Art Major.  Well, social sciences, but since that is a crock of shit anyway...
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: hunter s.durden on August 18, 2007, 06:26:41 pm
But you're not a real discordian.

I learned on myspace today that you can't be an angry discordian.

The happy, jokey nature of the PD prevents it.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: PeregrineBF on August 19, 2007, 06:30:45 am
PD is happy and jokey? Since when?
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cain on August 19, 2007, 03:26:18 pm
But you're not a real discordian.

I learned on myspace today that you can't be an angry discordian.

The happy, jokey nature of the PD prevents it.

I am a Really Real Discordian (for Realness).

Anyway, I want you to remind me of this on Sept 24th.  The Myspace Discordians clearly missed certain punchlines (because last time I checked, I can do pretty much what I want, with the whole book being contradictory) and helping to reeducate them could be...amusing, at least.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: hunter s.durden on August 19, 2007, 04:41:21 pm
Aye, Aye.

Getting them pissed is fun, because it breaks down that "I'm so wacky and happy," thing they have going.

PD is happy and jokey? Since when?
But some of the pages are written sideways, and the margins are unconventional! Sooooooo outlandish!
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: PeregrineBF on August 19, 2007, 08:54:57 pm
It's silly and weird, but that doesn't make it all happy. It's about chaos, and anyone who wants to be chaotic can't have such restrictions, unless one is determining restrictions in a chaotic manner (That meta-series can continue on up indefinitely, but you get the point.)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Chairman Risus on August 19, 2007, 08:56:31 pm
the point isnt pure chaos. it has alot to do with the lulz.

the hodge-podge should have made that clear.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 20, 2007, 04:15:44 pm
It appears to me that many Discordians see the Happy, Hippy Discordian view when they read the PD, many see the violent chaotic side, some see the metaphysical side, others see philosophical anarchy, some see a lame joke, some see nothing at all.

I am reminded of the small note scribbled in the margins of the PD:

This Book is a mirror. When a Monkey looks in, no apostle looks out. - Lichtenberg

I wonder... which view is the Monkey's view?
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: AFK on August 20, 2007, 04:23:58 pm
"Wipe Thine Ass With It"
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 20, 2007, 04:31:36 pm
"Wipe Thine Ass With It"

Well said!
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: AFK on August 20, 2007, 04:36:42 pm
I didn't say it.  It was that guy over there ------->
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 20, 2007, 04:54:39 pm
It appears to me that many Discordians see the Happy, Hippy Discordian view when they read the PD, many see the violent chaotic side, some see the metaphysical side, others see philosophical anarchy, some see a lame joke, some see nothing at all.

I am reminded of the small note scribbled in the margins of the PD:

This Book is a mirror. When a Monkey looks in, no apostle looks out. - Lichtenberg

I wonder... which view is the Monkey's view?


Some would counter with:  "While the Principia is like a sewer (in that what you get out of it depends on what you put into it), the question should be asked: 'which perspective is the most useful in our current sociopolitical situation'?"
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 20, 2007, 05:05:08 pm
It appears to me that many Discordians see the Happy, Hippy Discordian view when they read the PD, many see the violent chaotic side, some see the metaphysical side, others see philosophical anarchy, some see a lame joke, some see nothing at all.

I am reminded of the small note scribbled in the margins of the PD:

This Book is a mirror. When a Monkey looks in, no apostle looks out. - Lichtenberg

I wonder... which view is the Monkey's view?


Some would counter with:  "While the Principia is like a sewer (in that what you get out of it depends on what you put into it), the question should be asked: 'which perspective is the most useful in our current sociopolitical situation'?"

Well, I suppose that it would depend on several factors, not the least of which would be the "sociopolitical" position of the individual. Some people like our current situation. Some people like the current sociopolitical system minus GWB and the GOP. Some people find the entire concept of government repulsive and still others don't seem to care, one way or the other about the doings of government.

For those that like our current situation, they would point to the attempted ascendancy of Muslim extremism and claim that the War in the ME is Creative Chaos, ie it is chaotic, but the birth of democracy is worth the chaos necessary to create it.

For those that like the US' democratic system and are of a Liberal mindset, supporting the Dems may seem like Creative Order, or an attempt to make good on the Sermon on Ethics and Love.

For those that find any government impossible, they can lay claim to the Discordian seasons and support the freedom of Aftermath and Chaos, by bringing down the whole bureaucracy, supporting either Dems or the GOP might be seen as Destructive Order.

As for the others, there's plenty in the PD which can be interpreted as a personal, solo model which applies only to an individual and how that individual chooses to live their life.

So which is the monkey and which the apostle?
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 20, 2007, 05:06:50 pm
What, only two choices?

I demand another 3 options!
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: AFK on August 20, 2007, 05:08:47 pm
Fuck you and your un-Discordian Black and White Hell World!!!
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 20, 2007, 05:17:04 pm
What, only two choices?

I demand another 3 options!

Well, I know how I would answer the question... it appears to me that there are more than two options.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 20, 2007, 05:18:45 pm
Fuck you and your un-Discordian Black and White Hell World!!!

More like a Suffusion of Yellow and a Hyper Intelligent Shade of Blue as opposed to Black and White.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: AFK on August 20, 2007, 05:19:30 pm
Oh, well I guess that's okay then. 
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 20, 2007, 05:22:12 pm
At some point, we should start charging a fee when someone reference Douglas Adams.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 20, 2007, 05:23:37 pm
At some point, we should start charging a fee when someone reference Douglas Adams.

Do I get half of since I used two?
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 20, 2007, 05:24:37 pm
No, you get run over by a zebra the next time you use a crosswalk.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 20, 2007, 05:32:19 pm
No, you get run over by a zebra the next time you use a crosswalk.

We don't have zebra crossings over here, so I'm safe.  ;-)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: the dreadful hours on August 20, 2007, 06:29:16 pm
jay walking freaks
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 20, 2007, 09:18:34 pm
But you're not a real discordian.

I learned on myspace today that you can't be an angry discordian.

The happy, jokey nature of the PD prevents it.

I am a Really Real Discordian (for Realness).

Anyway, I want you to remind me of this on Sept 24th.  The Myspace Discordians clearly missed certain punchlines (because last time I checked, I can do pretty much what I want, with the whole book being contradictory) and helping to reeducate them could be...amusing, at least.

It sounds like a jolly time... Any Myspace Discordians in particular?
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Triple Zero on August 20, 2007, 09:22:58 pm
i don't remember "suffusion of yellow", and i must have read THHGTTG at least 7 times (yes, all 5,6 parts of the trilogy)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: AFK on August 20, 2007, 09:28:08 pm
But you're not a real discordian.

I learned on myspace today that you can't be an angry discordian.

The happy, jokey nature of the PD prevents it.

I am a Really Real Discordian (for Realness).

Anyway, I want you to remind me of this on Sept 24th.  The Myspace Discordians clearly missed certain punchlines (because last time I checked, I can do pretty much what I want, with the whole book being contradictory) and helping to reeducate them could be...amusing, at least.

It sounds like a jolly time... Any Myspace Discordians in particular?

Pretty much all of them. 
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 20, 2007, 10:40:33 pm
i don't remember "suffusion of yellow", and i must have read THHGTTG at least 7 times (yes, all 5,6 parts of the trilogy)

Every Discordian should read DA's "Dirk Gently: Holistic Detective Agency" series. "A Suffusion of Yellow" is the I-Ching calculator response to every equation that Dirk types into it. Also, there is Thor and Odin and someone's head on a record player (Second book "Long Dark Tea Time of The Soul").
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 20, 2007, 10:42:29 pm
But you're not a real discordian.

I learned on myspace today that you can't be an angry discordian.

The happy, jokey nature of the PD prevents it.

I am a Really Real Discordian (for Realness).

Anyway, I want you to remind me of this on Sept 24th.  The Myspace Discordians clearly missed certain punchlines (because last time I checked, I can do pretty much what I want, with the whole book being contradictory) and helping to reeducate them could be...amusing, at least.

It sounds like a jolly time... Any Myspace Discordians in particular?

Pretty much all of them. 

I've been poking about over there and I haven't found any really terrible ones yet... course I'm only on page three from the search for "Discordian". There seem to be some n00bs and a few people that think that there's something more than jokes in the PD (which there may well be)... but nothing horrific yet. I'll keep looking, but please link me to any juicy ones. It might be fun to poke their brains :)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cain on August 20, 2007, 11:28:25 pm
I havent been on Myspace for any extended period in the last 3 months.  But last time I was there, it was generally quite poor.  The sort of jabbering that has made PINEALGLAND23LOL! an insult around here.

Either way, once I have broadband back, I am going on an extended excursion over there.  LMNO, Hunter and RWHN should probably come along too, if we want to represent multiple viewpoints.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 21, 2007, 12:28:31 am
Sounds good... a  2 man con with three people (or four to 5). That could be lulztiful.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cain on August 21, 2007, 12:53:34 am
Well, you know the reason for my PM now... 8)

Hunter and RWHN know the territory...LMNO is far more reasonable than me when confronted with stupidity (I deal with intelligent yet stupid people every day) and we have previous experience of tag-teaming on other forums.

I'm sure as we entrench ourselves more, it will be easy for more of PD.com to enter without comment.  Percieved invasions always get people defensive, so over a period of days works best.

But since this  is well over a month away, its probably not worth considering too much detail in advance, except to see who is interested.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Shinigami715 on August 21, 2007, 01:34:52 am
Well, you know the reason for my PM now... 8)

Hunter and RWHN know the territory...LMNO is far more reasonable than me when confronted with stupidity (I deal with intelligent yet stupid people every day) and we have previous experience of tag-teaming on other forums.

I'm sure as we entrench ourselves more, it will be easy for more of PD.com to enter without comment.  Percieved invasions always get people defensive, so over a period of days works best.


Eh, MySpace has nowhere NEAR the solidarity of other... 'forums'. Besides, the kind of Discordians that reside there seem to have no concept of "threat".

Sad for them, but all the better for us.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cain on August 21, 2007, 02:11:17 am
Valid points, but I would still err on the side of caution until I had a proper feel for the place.  I suspect if extra troops filtered in even a couple of days later, it would not raise any warning flags, but like I said, cautious by nature...
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 21, 2007, 02:12:45 am
Valid points, but I would still err on the side of caution until I had a proper feel for the place.  I suspect if extra troops filtered in even a couple of days later, it would not raise any warning flags, but like I said, cautious by nature...

All the more reason to have a list for friending nowish...
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Triple Zero on August 21, 2007, 01:33:19 pm
i don't remember "suffusion of yellow", and i must have read THHGTTG at least 7 times (yes, all 5,6 parts of the trilogy)

Every Discordian should read DA's "Dirk Gently: Holistic Detective Agency" series. "A Suffusion of Yellow" is the I-Ching calculator response to every equation that Dirk types into it. Also, there is Thor and Odin and someone's head on a record player (Second book "Long Dark Tea Time of The Soul").

i read it, once (maybe twice). i got the book. i didnt find dirk gently that good, a littlebit vague and confusing.

my biggest problem is that the stories never seem to come to a conclusion or ending.

especially the third part, published in the Salmon of Doubt (a good read, got some interesting collected bits, i can recommend), which isn't even finished cause the writer died :)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 21, 2007, 01:35:46 pm
Well, you know the reason for my PM now... 8)

Hunter and RWHN know the territory...LMNO is far more reasonable than me when confronted with stupidity (I deal with intelligent yet stupid people every day) and we have previous experience of tag-teaming on other forums.

I'm sure as we entrench ourselves more, it will be easy for more of PD.com to enter without comment.  Percieved invasions always get people defensive, so over a period of days works best.

But since this  is well over a month away, its probably not worth considering too much detail in advance, except to see who is interested.


I try to avoid MySpace as much as possible, so I'm not sure I know all the ins and outs... are there forums there, or is it just leaving comments on each others' pages?
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: AFK on August 21, 2007, 01:40:52 pm
Well there are basically two kinds of forums over there.  There are the actual MySpace forums that have a variety of topics from music to religion and philosophy to politics, etc., etc.

Then there are the Groups.  From what I can tell there are about half a dozen or so Discordian groups.  There's really only one or two that are active.  Hunter and I have been hanging out there, but honestly it's so slow over there I generally only post once a day. 

But yeah, they're deep into the mystical 23, Fnord, flax stuff.  They get all giddy when they see Eris in a Billy and Mandy cartoon. 

Although, Grampa Kaos hangs out there too so there are a couple of level headed people over there, but he is in the minority. 
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 21, 2007, 01:42:41 pm
Dare I ask for a link, or even a... *gulp*... invite?
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: AFK on August 21, 2007, 01:49:44 pm
You don't need an invite.  The three I'm in are "Discordianism", "Discordian Cabal", and "Discordians".  The first one seems to be the most active though it seems like the same dozen or so users visit them all.  I'm me and Hunter isn't "Hunter" over there but I think you'll be able to easily figure out which on he is.   :D

Anyhow, you don't need an invite.  You just click the Join button or whatever it was and you're in. 
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 21, 2007, 01:51:32 pm
Ah, crap.  So it's easy, then.

I may have to make an alt account.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cramulus on August 21, 2007, 02:09:38 pm
dude after you make a myspace account
PREPARE TO GET LAID 100 TIMES
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 21, 2007, 02:39:15 pm
I don't think my wife likes MySpace that much.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: AFK on August 21, 2007, 02:41:33 pm
Yeah, I haven't noticed any increase in sexual activity.  Perhaps Hunter has been getting all of my action. 
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: hunter s.durden on August 21, 2007, 05:27:01 pm
I humped every piece of ass ever on that website.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cramulus on August 21, 2007, 05:28:04 pm
Last I checked, I was your only friend    8)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: hunter s.durden on August 21, 2007, 05:28:44 pm
I kicked you.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Payne on August 21, 2007, 05:39:28 pm
Hunter has no friends.

Only things he hasn't disembowelled yet.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 21, 2007, 05:48:35 pm
You don't need an invite.  The three I'm in are "Discordianism", "Discordian Cabal", and "Discordians".  The first one seems to be the most active though it seems like the same dozen or so users visit them all.  I'm me and Hunter isn't "Hunter" over there but I think you'll be able to easily figure out which on he is.   :D

Anyhow, you don't need an invite.  You just click the Join button or whatever it was and you're in. 

I found and joined the first two, but not the third.

Also, perhaps this portion of the thread should be stuck in a non-public place? (Or is this thread non public?)
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: LMNO on August 21, 2007, 05:51:45 pm
I shall contact the Proper Authorities.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cain on August 21, 2007, 10:28:21 pm
Valid points, but I would still err on the side of caution until I had a proper feel for the place.  I suspect if extra troops filtered in even a couple of days later, it would not raise any warning flags, but like I said, cautious by nature...

All the more reason to have a list for friending nowish...

You presume I currently have a connection that could handle Myspace and its shitty coding.

This is manifestly false.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: Cain on August 21, 2007, 10:29:43 pm
You don't need an invite.  The three I'm in are "Discordianism", "Discordian Cabal", and "Discordians".  The first one seems to be the most active though it seems like the same dozen or so users visit them all.  I'm me and Hunter isn't "Hunter" over there but I think you'll be able to easily figure out which on he is.   :D

Anyhow, you don't need an invite.  You just click the Join button or whatever it was and you're in. 

I found and joined the first two, but not the third.

Also, perhaps this portion of the thread should be stuck in a non-public place? (Or is this thread non public?)

Its public.  Everything except O:MF and its subforum can be seen by everypone.  However, since this is still a few weeks off, I can do a split and hide before any of us jump in easily.
Title: Re: Core Themes of Discordia
Post by: AFK on April 09, 2012, 02:22:44 pm
Bumpity