Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Propaganda Depository => GASM Command => Topic started by: tyrannosaurus vex on December 26, 2007, 11:32:12 pm

Title: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on December 26, 2007, 11:32:12 pm
If there are any of you good-for-nothing comatose bastards lurking here, I'd just like to tell you to knock off your shit.

FSM is a terrible rip-off of Discordja, plus when you go around spamming schoolboards and shutting down their plans to teach ID to classes full of impressionable youngsters (http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/12/26/72046/268/826/426324), you're not doing anyone a favor.

Plus, if you slackers can accomplish something like that, pretty soon people are going to start wondering why Actual Discordians(tm) spend all their time fapping to GIGGLES' avatar and pissing and moaning about how nobody ever pulls off the Perfect Jake!

SO JUST QUIT ALREADY.

thx.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 27, 2007, 12:50:48 am
heh.

you've never TALKED to any of the FSMers, have you?

I'm pretty sure that them and the 9-11 Truthers are the same people.

you're right about alot of that, though.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Nast on December 27, 2007, 12:53:12 am
They think they're so cutting edge and urban. A FSM sticker on your hybrid car, WAYSA?
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cramulus on December 27, 2007, 02:11:35 am
Yo, we should declare that FSM is now a subset of glorious old Discordja.

hmmm paging Adam Weishaupt...
 :fnord:
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Apikoros II on December 27, 2007, 02:22:06 am
The FSM is just another Manifestation of Eris or possibly Eris' messenger. Also, I hear the FSM is excellent with fava beans and a nice chiante. <<Licks Lips and makes sucking noises>> In fact, in one of Eris' messages to me, she came as a Culturally Jewish FSM. See Day of the Golden Apple's drawing somewheres on this board. I posted it for her. And, in a shameless self promotion, you can read Her (Eris, not Day) revelation to me on my blog. Which I am too lazy to link.

If there are any of you good-for-nothing comatose bastards lurking here, I'd just like to tell you to knock off your shit.

BTW, I think I am more Commie-Tose then comatose. Or that could be this very vivid fantasy dream thing I am having while lying in this comfy bed.

Finally, as I have mentioned somewhere on the interweb before, Be careful when any religious figure tries to touch you, even if it is with a noodelly appendage.


Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 27, 2007, 02:38:15 am
Yo, we should declare that FSM is now a subset of glorious old Discordja.

hmmm paging Adam Weishaupt...
 :fnord:

co-opting the success of others is a glorious thing.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Sir Squid Diddimus on December 27, 2007, 05:41:08 am
dude it's Florida.
four thirds of the idiots here don't know the difference between their ass and a hole in the ground.
i'm surprised the classes don't consist of- "god created everything and everyone. jesus is your lord and saviour, you're all going to hell. the end. go home"
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Suu on December 27, 2007, 03:13:44 pm
CS...It's POLK COUNTY! The article mentioning even being PART of the Tampa area is a disgrace. It's fucking Lakeland. They should all be destroyed with their banjos.

"SQUEAL! I SAID SQUEAL!!"

I blame it on Florida Southern College. Those asshat Baptists...

Maybe I'm not seeing this the way everyone else is, but the way I see it is as the CoFSM is more of less a group of individuals who, like me, think the teaching of intelligent design as an actual science is beyond bullshit, so they throw their own bullshit into the mess to prove a point. That's all.

Who gives a shit if they aren't or are Discordians or wtf. I don't care. It's a statement, not a religion.

We all may return to our regularly scheduled lives.



Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Suu on December 27, 2007, 03:17:22 pm
PS:

Quote
Speaking of that, not far from Polk County, it appears that a majority of the Pinellas County School Board also support the teaching of intelligent design/creationism in science classrooms, according to a recent article in the St. Petersburg Times.

UNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!! So glad I graduated when I did. I'm forwarding this article to my mom. I KNOW the Pinellas County School Board will LOVE to hear from her again, even if all her kids are grown up, and 1 of the 3 are unfortunate products of the Rhode Island school system.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Sir Squid Diddimus on December 27, 2007, 05:59:52 pm
 :lulz:
yup. good ol polk county.
we can always rely on them for a laugh.

its as funny as eustis really.
if you hear banjos..... start runnin. (that's how to stay alive and un-assraped round these parts)
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Sita on December 27, 2007, 06:12:03 pm
Once again, I hate Florida.

Like Lakeland even less and refuse to go there even if it is closer than Tampa or Brandon for certain stores.

It doesn't surprise me what those idiots do anymore.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Suu on December 27, 2007, 06:16:50 pm
...Have you ever driven down I-4 between I think Lakeland and Auburndale? There's a sign, kinda small on the northern side of the highway that says, "Future place of downtown Orlampa".

When I saw that a few years back I cried. It was still there this past February. Sounds like Polk County wants some sort of make-believe halfway point metropolis. I know Lakeland has gotten big, but it apparently hasn't gotten better.

I-4 is like, the epitome of redneck and Canadian colonization between the cities now, and they all have such stupid names...Especially once you get into Osceola County and you're surrounded by Mouse. Nobody who knows Florida would dare live in that part of the state except for the illegal immigrants that work at the theme parks, and poor unsuspecting folk from out of state.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 27, 2007, 07:03:36 pm
The FSM are retards.

And how would you know what I do with my time?

Oh, wait, you don't?  That's right.

Fuck off Vex, I don't need to take shit from you when I never see any big coups you've (failed) to pull off.  Dipshit.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 27, 2007, 07:14:30 pm
And also, just to add, I've made numerous calls for collective online action.  But NONE of you ever bothered to follow up, so I'm doing my own thing now, with people who actually respond when I ask them questions or make suggestions about things we can do.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: LMNO on December 27, 2007, 07:16:01 pm
The REAL horrible troof.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on December 27, 2007, 07:19:35 pm
 The FSM have a one trick show and a bunch of loudmouthed disciples... they seem to embody the  lame... repeating someone elses joke, thus lacking original thought and Groupthink rather than individual thinking.

Of course, this really seems (to me) one of the reasons we (as PD.com... not as individuals) may not have pulled off something as large scale as this. Sombunal members of the forum seem intent on running off all the cannon  fodder and foot soldiers. FSM works because they don't say "You're not a pirate or ninja Stupid asshole!!!! Think for yourself!" They say "Ok, Pirate or Ninja, I don't care... just go flood this website". One needs BODIES in order to wage war. Not all soldiers "think for themselves", in fact thats usually a bad idea for soldiers. N00bs make great bodies... some of them may fall by the way, some may never get beyond basic foot soldiering and still others may feel their pineal glad pop and suddenly begin to Think for Themselves (then you let them run new attacks)....

Of course, I've stated this many times and maybe some people think I'm an idiot... but there is value in scamming conning accepting MySpace Discordians and LiveJournal Discordians and N00b Discordians... if we want to engage in large scale Jakes/OM's etc. Maybe that's not something PD.com is interested in I dunno. For my cabal though, we drag in anyone who even thinks for a second that they are Discordian, most of them eventually become hoopy froods and they're Useful Chaos in the meantime.

Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 27, 2007, 07:20:27 pm
Here's another horrible troof, while I'm at it.  if you want to pull these sort of stunts off, you're going to need manpower and coordination.  We don't have the manpower and coordination skills here suck (as I know from running HIMEOBS ops).  So if you want to do this sort of thing, you may have to lower the barrier to entry on this site somewhat meaning (*gasp*) you may have to put up with the likes of the 23pinealists while you train them to be trolls and convince them to go on raids with you.  Enough manpower can cover no shows and most coordination issues, but without it you are pissing into an ocean made of piss.

And you wonder why I'd rather hang out with the /i/nsurgents, gain their trust and make subtle hints about targets that we both share....
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: LMNO on December 27, 2007, 07:25:04 pm
::sniff::

::sniff, sniff::


I smell schism....
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on December 27, 2007, 07:27:10 pm
Here's another horrible troof, while I'm at it.  if you want to pull these sort of stunts off, you're going to need manpower and coordination.  We don't have the manpower and coordination skills here suck (as I know from running HIMEOBS ops).  So if you want to do this sort of thing, you may have to lower the barrier to entry on this site somewhat meaning (*gasp*) you may have to put up with the likes of the 23pinealists while you train them to be trolls and convince them to go on raids with you.  Enough manpower can cover no shows and most coordination issues, but without it you are pissing into an ocean made of piss.

And you wonder why I'd rather hang out with the /i/nsurgents, gain their trust and make subtle hints about targets that we both share....


Whoah Dude, we must have like totally connected on some higher plane of consciousness and our minds shared this Erisian Truth!!!

Or, we both just stated the obvious....
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 27, 2007, 07:30:36 pm
LMNO:  Not at all.  I'm just pointing out a discrepancy between actions and expected goals.

OMFG WHY CANT WE RAID FORUMS INTO THE GROUND WITH OUR 25 POSTARS?  ITS SO UNFAIR AND I BLAME ALL YUO GUYS FOR IT!

You want to turn PD.com into a machine capable of such actions?  Fine by me, I wont complain (so long as people listen to what I say, because I probably have the most experience here), but you have to start changing your current attitudes.  You  have to get out there and recruit, until this place has a solid base of people able to carry out such actions.

I do have plans for such things, but because of a complete lack of motivation on the part of pretty much everyone else I have declined to share them.  You want them?  Fine, but you're going to have to work for it.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on December 27, 2007, 07:38:26 pm
LMNO:  Not at all.  I'm just pointing out a discrepancy between actions and expected goals.

OMFG WHY CANT WE RAID FORUMS INTO THE GROUND WITH OUR 25 POSTARS?  ITS SO UNFAIR AND I BLAME ALL YUO GUYS FOR IT!

You want to turn PD.com into a machine capable of such actions?  Fine by me, I wont complain (so long as people listen to what I say, because I probably have the most experience here), but you have to start changing your current attitudes.  You  have to get out there and recruit, until this place has a solid base of people able to carry out such actions.

I do have plans for such things, but because of a complete lack of motivation on the part of pretty much everyone else I have declined to share them.  You want them?  Fine, but you're going to have to work for it.

IAWTC

Even if you hate me, Cain... I think you're on a goddess-damned Awesome Motorcycle here.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on December 27, 2007, 08:17:49 pm
I didn't realize the whole "get off your ass and do something" topic was such a sore one for you, Cain, that you'd take a thread that was only halfway about that to begin with and use it as a soapbox to go off on me.

It's alright though, because after this post you'll have a good reason to hate me.

FTR, stopping a single backwoods schoolboard from putting Intelligent Design into its district's curriculum, is roughly equivalent to spamming/trolling about ten thousand internet forums to death.

The pastafarians might be a bunch of douchebags, but in my opinion, holding back an entire county full of rednecks from diluting their education system with religious nonsense is worth a few yuks nevertheless.

And, we may be living in the Future(tm) and everything, but IRL still counts for more than the Interwebs.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 27, 2007, 08:43:23 pm
So in other words you don't care to take me up on any of the practical points I raised?

Thanks for conceding, instead of dragging out a humiliating defeat.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on December 27, 2007, 08:44:44 pm
FTR, stopping a single backwoods schoolboard from putting Intelligent Design into its district's curriculum, is roughly equivalent to spamming/trolling about ten thousand internet forums to death.

And, we may be living in the Future(tm) and everything, but IRL still counts for more than the Interwebs.

All of this seems like TROOF to me. FSM freaks don't appear to be "Discordian" in the sense of "Think for Yourself, Schmuck". But, they are definitely fighting a necessary fight, though their ranks are swollen with Atheistic idiots which don't seem much better that what they are fighting.

However, IRL beats the Internets.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on December 27, 2007, 08:56:58 pm
So in other words you don't care to take me up on any of the practical points I raised?

Thanks for conceding, instead of dragging out a humiliating defeat.

Your motivation/organization concerns are nice, but while we're trying to muster all the collective ambition it takes to overrun a forum or two, there are other groups who have found ways to muster more than enough collective ambition to accomplish something real, as in physically, tangibly real.

This isn't really an argument I have with you though, Cain. Your frustration is with a lack of willpower to accomplish something, and so is mine. I just happen to think that you're aing waay too low for it to amount to anything, anyway.




This thread was intended to get somebody riled up and spark a discussion about what (if anything) people at PDCOM are willing to sign on for, so maybe it isn't a complete failure.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 27, 2007, 09:07:19 pm
Aiming way too low?  I already have a crew of people who do IRL shit.  However, we are geographically and economically limited, two things which do not apply to the internet.  I am up for raising a ruckus on a number of sites because I already enjoy doing it IRL but feel the above limitations lead to problems of saturation/personal infamy/assrape in jail.

If you want a serious discussion on creating a Discordian Freikorps, I will glady bump this over to O:MF.  However, I need to know that people are in and that they are dedicated.  This will require several months of relatively hard work and some above average thinking, as well as technical know-how, and I am not going to waste my time if only one person is behind me.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on December 27, 2007, 09:09:25 pm
So in other words you don't care to take me up on any of the practical points I raised?

Thanks for conceding, instead of dragging out a humiliating defeat.

Your motivation/organization concerns are nice, but while we're trying to muster all the collective ambition it takes to overrun a forum or two, there are other groups who have found ways to muster more than enough collective ambition to accomplish something real, as in physically, tangibly real.

This isn't really an argument I have with you though, Cain. Your frustration is with a lack of willpower to accomplish something, and so is mine. I just happen to think that you're aing waay too low for it to amount to anything, anyway.




This thread was intended to get somebody riled up and spark a discussion about what (if anything) people at PDCOM are willing to sign on for, so maybe it isn't a complete failureor insert HIMEOBS or other thing here).

What the hell are you two arguing about? You sound like Lazyhead and Sleepybones, you're disagreeing, but your saying the same damned things. Cept Vex is dissing Internet OM a bit... but its ok, because he's Goth.

Cain is fucking right, without dedication to Jaking, PD.com will be a place for Idle Chatter. Vex is right, the FSM pulled off a job that we should be considering Old Hat by now.

Millitary Metaphor:

PD.com could be an Elite force for the ELF (or insert HIMEOBS or other thing here) - However, like all elite forces it requires COMPLETE dedication on the part of EVERY Member of the active team... any less than 110% results in a failed mission and dead people.

PD.com could be a massive force for the ELF (or insert HIMEOBS or other thing here) - However, like all mass millitary powers, it requires mass Infantry. That means lowering the standard for entry from Puce Beret level to "Well, he doesn't shoot his foot off...".

Or PD.com can be a place for people to hang out and say silly things and fap off about random concepts, silly photoshopping, chaos magic, and a subgroup to make fun of those comments.

Or, we could have natural leaders like Cain and Vex continue to jump on each others ego's because this kind of cyclical things has them disallusioned.

Or I could just shut the fuck up.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on December 27, 2007, 09:09:33 pm
please move topic then.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 27, 2007, 09:13:28 pm
Thread moved.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on December 27, 2007, 09:30:21 pm
Cain: geographical limits don't have to stop IRL actions. the internet is the best way to overcome those limitations but moving from geographical limitations to digital limitations is of no help either. use the internet to contact and coordinate, but i don't see the use in taking any action where the entire cause/effect wave is felt online only.

So, anyway...

PDCOM: Sign here if you are interested in committing to more than just a wacky forum

FREE AK-47s FOR THE FIRST 50 PEOPLE TO SIGN UP, CAIN'S PAYING.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 27, 2007, 09:33:55 pm
No, but a healthy mix of the two is probably the best approach, in that I can use both my working IRL approach with a more farspread method.  Neither is perfect, but both complement each others.  besides, I have lots of pent up anger to dispense and hitting street bums is frowned upon in many quarters.

I have a plan forming, but since I am writing this on a windowsill which is at an uncomfortable height for long posts, it will have to wait for later.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on December 27, 2007, 09:47:05 pm
No, but a healthy mix of the two is probably the best approach, in that I can use both my working IRL approach with a more farspread method.  Neither is perfect, but both complement each others.  besides, I have lots of pent up anger to dispense and hitting street bums is frowned upon in many quarters.

I have a plan forming, but since I am writing this on a windowsill which is at an uncomfortable height for long posts, it will have to wait for later.

Sounds good to me, I'm all ears.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cramulus on December 27, 2007, 10:16:48 pm
PDCOM: Sign here if you are interested in committing to more than just a wacky forum

signed.

I've been committed to more than just a wacky forum since way before I even arrived at this wacky forum.



edited to add: I also love jumping on bandwagons, even if I don't know when/where they'll be going.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: König Bonifaz on December 27, 2007, 10:37:23 pm
Well, I have practically no field experience in the field of trolling/online-OMing, but I'm quite willing to be indoctrinated and drilled.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: ñͤͣ̄ͦ̌̑͗͊͛͂͗ ̸̨̨̣̺̼̣̜͙͈͕̮̊̈́̈͂͛̽͊ͭ̓͆ͅé ̰̓̓́ͯ́́͞ on December 27, 2007, 11:41:01 pm
We should put out an explicit APB for troll training all across the interwebs.

2 divisions: IRL and tubal.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Darth Cupcake on December 28, 2007, 02:23:33 am
I am curious and interested in this. However, I often have opinions divergent from those of the rest of the group in regards to trolling/jaking/etc. So I would like to sign on and say I am interested in learning more, but I don't want to make promises that I can't follow through on. I'm also not here to pass judgment or undermine anything--my opinions are limited strictly to my own actions, so please don't mistake any of that for disagreement or judgment.

I am intrigued, however, and would like to become involved if it seems like something that I would be able to contribute to a worthwhile way. When I do things, I try to always do them 100%, and that is why I only do so many things.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Xooxe on December 28, 2007, 08:04:40 am
PDCOM: Sign here if you are interested in committing to more than just a wacky forum

I don't really do interweb jakery.

As for 'just a wacky forum', how much of it is KYFMS anyway?
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: LMNO on December 28, 2007, 01:14:11 pm
I'm working on something that, when ready, will need a massive PR push.  I really can't expect something for nothing, so I'm willing to make an effort to get something going for y'all, and with any luck, you might be able to return the favor.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 28, 2007, 01:25:28 pm
The Golden Apple Korps (working title, subject to change)

Stage 1: Recruitment

Success relies on having a large number of raiders available at any one given time.  The nature of online operations means that the first strike should involve as many people as possible.  Increments of increasing pressure only allow for countermeasures to be employed in a more rational and successful manner.  Ideally, raiders should emulate the Blitzkrieg, penetrating deep into enemy territory and wreaking confusion among the support lines before the enemy can react.

To this end, we need more people.  Full stop.  More at the major time zones (GMT/GMT+1 and US time zones) are especially required, however others are more than acceptable, too.  Firstly, this requires those who identify with Discordianism among our number, either here or on other sites where we establish the Korps.  Preferably here, because we have the means to hide our actions, as well as relatively competent defence options, should revenge be planned.  Also, we can plan and train recruits here better.

Its very possible that many who identify as Discordian may not want to take part in raids, even if framed in the right way, as to appeal to their own beliefs.  To this end, I suggest we do our own, covert recruitment of latent Discordians on other sites.  This will involve several days of phased infiltration, identification and extraction of such people.  For this, I suggest using the list and links provided at the Big-boards website, which is a guide to the largest forums on the internet.

Either way, lots more people guarantees that at least a fraction of those coming in will agree with our aims and want to join in.


Stage 2: training

This will take a number of forms, however it should at least involve knowledge of how to use proxies, multiple tabs, iMacros (does ANYONE know how to work this thing yet?) and IRC for coordination.  Additional skills could include finding PI, blog trolling and programming know-how, but these are not necessary.

Once theoretical and technical training is complete, practical training should commence.  Sites of low value, such as TCC and Mystic Wicks should be considered prime training grounds. 

Stage 3: Targets

War is a manifestation of politics, as Clausewitz would remind us, and the basis of politics is the existence of an enemy.  As Discordians our enemies are diverse and varied, but I think there are a few criteria we can reliably consider for someone to be considered among that category.  First and foremost would be authoritarian pricks.  An obvious choice, and one the internet in no way lacks.  Plenty of forum admins who use their ability to pay for a server and domain name as a psychological crutch.  A subset of this would be authoritarian political and religious ideologies.  So, for example, the NeoCon wing of the GOP, Nazis, illiberal Islamists, Christian Identity groups etc

Secondly, we can consider those Pagan and other religious groups who implicitly try and shove Discordians out of the picture entirely.  Although some would argue this is an extension of the above, it need not be.  Its more a matter of...due respect being given, as well as not looking like we're allowing a bunch of dipshits who believe in faeries and dragons 'oppress' us.

Thirdly we can consider people who are complicit in creation of this current culture of crap.  That can range from celebs to unfunny YouTube 'stars' to academics and 'social commentators' who implicitly back the current cultural and intellectual status quo. 

Recruits picked up via Big-boards, along with Stumble Upon and Encyclopaedia Dramatica can all yield worthwhile targets and we should invest resources heavily into finding such sites.

Stage 4: Defensive considerations

On one level, PD.com is quite secure.  The forum is well moderated and sign up requires admin activation, allowing for user name/host/email/IP checks.  SMF allows for attackers to be deleted along with all of their posts should they attempt to flood the forum.  On the other hand, there are times the admins are not on and mods can only do so much in the face of a well prepared assault.  I doubt this to be a massive problem, as most sites we target will only have minimal offensive measures in the first place.  Also, with us taking the initiative they will likely try to combat us on their home ground rather than take the fight elsewhere.

On a hacking level, we may be somewhat less secure.  I trust that those in charge of the database have picked secure passwords, but I would suggest that the site be personally registered under the current admin or Faust's real name and contact details.  That way, in the event of a hostile takeover there will be legal recourse to prove ownership definitively.  It is unlikely, but all possibilities should be considered.

Other defensive related concerns will be discussed under the Netwar section. 


Stage 5: Legal considerations

This board is hosted in the USA, therefore all members should familiarize themselves with all aspects of US law which could potentially land us in trouble.  Equally, if members are not from the USA, they should get to know their local laws as well.  Members may also want to look into the applications of such laws in past cases.

However, the best way to avoid such problems is to consider the Korps a raiding group.  Our aim is to cause maximum chaos on a board of our choosing.  Should this...happen to crash a site or two, then too bad.  We certainly never intended such a thing to happen, but they can when you have so many people connecting and posting on a site.

As for obviously illegal activities, such as hacking, Distributed Denial of Service attacks etc...they are all out.  If you want to do them, organize them among yourselves and limit the risk to those fully aware of the possible consequences, but do not involve the Korps.

Borderline illegal activities, such as phishing, repeatedly guessing an admins password etc will be up for review, depending on the laws surrounding such activities.


Stage 6: Aesthetic considerations

The Korps should be considered not a PD.com group, but a militant arm of the Discordian Society, and should be referred to as such.  Rumours of being linked to the Illuminati as an online 'strategy of tension' are encouraged.  Propaganda and graphics should be made for the group and should reference Discordianism and our symbols, but not any particular sites.  Members should consider the creation of a new identity for the Korps (using the same user names on other sites, an official email linked to that username etc), so that the most direct accusations of involvement are deniable, making most of them open to accusations of religious bigotry, as well as creating a fine veneer of respectability for ourselves.


Stage 7: Netwar considerations

Organizational:  The Korps should be decentralized in that its members are recruited from multiple sites and made aware of other sites where we can plan our activities.  This way, should an enemy attempt a decapitation attack against PD.com, members can regroup on IRC, at EB&G, on POEE, Facebook etc and plan an appropriate response.  PD.com can be considered a nerve centre, or primary command post, but the others are fallback positions in case of the above scenario.

Equally, we should consider networking with troll groups and other similar organizations (The ColBoards, the bloody Pastafarians etc) whose beliefs and targets coincide with our own.  We can act as auxiliary forces for their raids and vice versa where our aims meet, as well as adding another layer of flexible connectivity which will augment our defensive abilities.

Narrative:  our narrative is rather like the Bush doctrine, only we foolishly believe our own propaganda.  We aim to overthrow Greyfaced regimes online or, failing that, at least create enough mayhem that its impossible for anyone to take charge.  There are also elements of using the internet to instigate social change, though these need further exploration.  OUR ACTIONS MUST ALWAYS MATCH UP WITH OUR STATED AIMS.  Loss of a coherent narrative that can be matched with our online operations is fatal.

Doctrinal:  The Korps makes use of swarming – that is, attacks from multiple directions on one target (for example, if we intend to raid a site, we not only flood the forums, but if they have chatrooms, IM programs listed, a Myspace group etc attack those too) to overwhelm and confuse defences.  Attacks by the Korps are always claimed, and screenshots of the attacks should be taken during the assault, the Firefox screengrab being the best tool for this.

Social:  this is the nexus of narrative and organization.  A compelling narrative and good links with similar groups create a good social climate for the Korps to succeed in.  The narrative must support existing and future social ties.

Technological: this will involve keeping an eye on useful tools and programs which can aid our cause, in whatever way that may be.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: LMNO on December 28, 2007, 01:29:45 pm
Wow.


You were saving that for just this occasion, haven't you?


Looks good.

The hardest part will probably be recruitment.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 28, 2007, 01:33:27 pm
Actually, I wrote it up about 10 minutes ago.

And I agree, recruitment will be hard.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: LMNO on December 28, 2007, 01:35:49 pm
Especially if we have to do it in a subtle and gradual manner.  We can't just go in shouting, "HEY! TRYING TO BUILD A TROLL ARMY HERE!"
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 28, 2007, 01:49:06 pm
Thats why we should selectively target for those who seem to have the right attitude or otherwise disposition towards such activities.  Like the FSM/ColBoards (the latter of which has a few Discordians).
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: LMNO on December 28, 2007, 02:08:28 pm
Good call.


Also, thinking of the Lakota jake, we should see about getting some contacts in the media.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on December 28, 2007, 03:28:18 pm
Thats why we should selectively target for those who seem to have the right attitude or otherwise disposition towards such activities.  Like the FSM/ColBoards (the latter of which has a few Discordians).

Any thoughts on the unwashed masses of MySpace Discordians or LJ Discordians? Sjaantze has contacts in MySpace and I in LJ....

23AE?

Maybe I could selectively invite some of the people that hang out at Maybe Logic?
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: LMNO on December 28, 2007, 03:49:07 pm
I would suggest that Rat's question hinges on whether the Korps will be a public, or secert entity.  Involving the Myspace Pinealists will basically ensure that no secret will be kept.

However, it could make for interesting cell activity, if we have the cannon fodder attacking from one direction, and the Special Psyops coming in from another.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cramulus on December 28, 2007, 04:15:28 pm
I'm afraid we're just a little too busy with BIP, pranking an election cycle, and just plain old getting in some yuks to give a shit about...

FTR, stopping a single backwoods schoolboard from putting Intelligent Design into its district's curriculum, is roughly equivalent to spamming/trolling about ten thousand internet forums to death.

The pastafarians might be a bunch of douchebags, but in my opinion, holding back an entire county full of rednecks from diluting their education system with religious nonsense is worth a few yuks nevertheless.

And, we may be living in the Future(tm) and everything, but IRL still counts for more than the Interwebs.

Cain, I highly appreciate where you're going with this. That being said, Vex suggested we set our sights higher. As long as we're on the "come up with the mission statement" level, I'd like to ponder the above quotes.

We've been on some hilarious and awesome troll ventures across pagankind, but TCC has left me feeling kind of sour about it. Yeah we really diluted that place, but what's the end-game look like? Great, we reduced some pagans to bickering and in-fighting. It affected less than a hundred people.

The parts of all this talk which resonate well with me are the ones which have the largest public impact. Like jaking celebrities, pranking the election poopla, and interfering with influential grayface targets. These are all things, BTW, which the Adam Weishaupt Society is geared to help with.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cramulus on December 28, 2007, 04:33:12 pm
also:  :barstool::

I don't think any large-scale efforts to recruit / train other Discordians will be successful unless the STFUPID Cabal decreases its overall level of venom for the FNORD23PINEAL crowd.

To me, that seems like a big bar in our Black Iron Prison.


ETA:

I know I'm stating the obvious, but it's nigh-impossible to decrease said venom without some dictatorship of social pressures telling people how to respond to each other. And that's lame too.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on December 28, 2007, 04:44:20 pm
I would suggest that Rat's question hinges on whether the Korps will be a public, or secert entity.  Involving the Myspace Pinealists will basically ensure that no secret will be kept.

However, it could make for interesting cell activity, if we have the cannon fodder attacking from one direction, and the Special Psyops coming in from another.


Well, my thought is this. Every military, insurgent, rebel, *insert other cool terms here* group has layers. There's a layer of leaders... or layers of leaders in the case of 4GW. There are Special Ops folks that are 100% dedicated and deadly, there's foot soldiers and infantry, there's some sort of psyops, some type of media management (either to spread the insurgent side of the story, or to monitor for any useful information that could be used).

If we consider 'secret societies' throughout the ages, we see a similar pattern. The 'secrets' aren't kept by all members, some secrets are kept by everyone, but there are layers of secrets etc. MySpace Discordians might be 3rd degree Apple Korps until we saw them in action and let the most useful ones in on a bigger secret.

In short, maybe we advertise differently to different groups, providing more information to people we trust, less info to people that we are examining for seaworthiness (aka do they leak).

I don't think any large-scale efforts to recruit / train other Discordians will be successful unless the STFUPID Cabal decreases its overall level of venom for the FNORD23PINEAL crowd.

Of course, that would mean that the STFUPID Cabal would WANT to do such a thing. Sure we loudmouths are waxing poetic here, but we're not the only people on the board.

Hrmmm.

Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: LMNO on December 28, 2007, 04:49:04 pm


If we consider 'secret societies' throughout the ages, we see a similar pattern. The 'secrets' aren't kept by all members, some secrets are kept by everyone, but there are layers of secrets etc. MySpace Discordians might be 3rd degree Apple Korps until we saw them in action and let the most useful ones in on a bigger secret.



Ther problem is, I hate those fucking societies.  I have found through personal experience that it turns people into Elitist Scumbags.



LMNO
- Ex-Elitist Scumbag.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on December 28, 2007, 04:51:38 pm
Cyberwarfare is the next wave, even in State Government circles. It's important to maintain a strong online presence. That said, limiting ourselves to operations that result only in online disintegration or chaos is a mistake. The idea, IMHO, should be that our online operations are intended to produce IRL results.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on December 28, 2007, 04:53:46 pm
addendum: i think it's best to at least use the inner circle/outer minions strategy, except with a more permeable division between the two than is usually in place.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on December 28, 2007, 04:58:33 pm


If we consider 'secret societies' throughout the ages, we see a similar pattern. The 'secrets' aren't kept by all members, some secrets are kept by everyone, but there are layers of secrets etc. MySpace Discordians might be 3rd degree Apple Korps until we saw them in action and let the most useful ones in on a bigger secret.



Ther problem is, I hate those fucking societies.  I have found through personal experience that it turns people into Elitist Scumbags.



LMNO
- Ex-Elitist Scumbag.


Heh, troof.

I was using those as more of an example than a model...

Basically, I'm saying we should be judicious about who we show are cards to... and how much of our hand we choose to show.

1. Recruiting for a "Troll Army" in Public would be an obvious Giant Red Flag. Instead, maybe the public announcement is something less direct...

ATTN: Any Discordians up for a bit of mischief, who are able to work well with others and keep their yaps shut when necessary are invited to swing by the PD.com Recruitment Center for a Chance at all sorts of Special Projects.

We set up a recruitment center, ask people to provide us with some info on their Discordian Street Cred or on how willing/able they would be to dedicate time to various 'causes' etc. From there we cull out the obvious loudmouths (probably want to keep an eye on their blogs etc to see if they talk about this stuff).

Those that look able to keep their mouth shut get the full training. Those with slightly less inhibitions about talking are given less training... mostly to act as foot soldiers:

aka: Print out 20 copies of the following and place in local Laundromats (PICS or GTFO).

(Whereas the other group may be far more involved with producing the entire project in the first place).

Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on December 28, 2007, 05:06:03 pm
Further Thoughts:

Misdirection, flanking, etc.


Large numbers of OBVIOUS DISCORDIANS, spouting 23 PINEAL FNORD would make a very loud, very distracting force.

Perhaps if less distracting, covert folks were well embedded in a forum, no one would suspect their connection to the frontal assault?
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: LMNO on December 28, 2007, 05:08:19 pm
Further Thoughts:

Misdirection, flanking, etc.


Large numbers of OBVIOUS DISCORDIANS, spouting 23 PINEAL FNORD would make a very loud, very distracting force.

Perhaps if less distracting, covert folks were well embedded in a forum, no one would suspect their connection to the frontal assault?
However, it could make for interesting cell activity, if we have the cannon fodder attacking from one direction, and the Special Psyops coming in from another.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on December 28, 2007, 05:31:02 pm
Further Thoughts:

Misdirection, flanking, etc.


Large numbers of OBVIOUS DISCORDIANS, spouting 23 PINEAL FNORD would make a very loud, very distracting force.

Perhaps if less distracting, covert folks were well embedded in a forum, no one would suspect their connection to the frontal assault?
However, it could make for interesting cell activity, if we have the cannon fodder attacking from one direction, and the Special Psyops coming in from another.

Oh Ah, yeah.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on December 28, 2007, 06:59:11 pm
http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_(A_to_Z)/Stocks_S/forumview?bn=2942 (http://messages.finance.yahoo.com/Stocks_(A_to_Z)/Stocks_S/forumview?bn=2942)

Someone made a big mess there  :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 28, 2007, 07:46:57 pm
We already have HIMEOBS as an elite section.

As for offline...well, I can hardly help you guys with anything that way, can I? 
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on December 28, 2007, 10:28:03 pm
We already have HIMEOBS as an elite section.

As for offline...well, I can hardly help you guys with anything that way, can I? 


OK then, HIMEOBS plans the engagements, the troops are informed of the date and time days in advance but get location information at a specified time, right before the attack. That might minimize any risk of leaks. Of course, HIMEOBS is easily tracable to these parts due to regular use of the term in posts...
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on December 28, 2007, 11:39:24 pm
THIS is how you waste an afternoon when you're supposed to be "working." (http://www.discoflux.com/awsnews/charter.pdf)
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Iron Sulfide on December 29, 2007, 01:44:11 am
I would suggest that Rat's question hinges on whether the Korps will be a public, or secert entity.  Involving the Myspace Pinealists will basically ensure that no secret will be kept.

However, it could make for interesting cell activity, if we have the cannon fodder attacking from one direction, and the Special Psyops coming in from another.

vex, thanks for the deceptive topic, i didn't expect to read all four pages, but here i am.

Cain, fucking sweet.

LMNO- that reminds me of the illuminati/assassins in the hasan i sabbah part of Illuminatus

most of what was hashed out here is why i've been off lately. IRL just seems like a better target. i think we haven't collectively done much that has had major IRL effect - like FSM- because we place so much emphasis on the think for yourself thing, which is a great meme, and ardently effective, causing much difference in opinion between us, as is necessary for creating a more complex data set. that's a good thing, but it takes longer gestation of the data to produce information in a useful and tangible way. points: learning english is harder than spanish. chinese ideograms vs. roman alphabet.

but at what point does the meme become autotoxic? thinking and sticking apart, as it were, got us to where we are, but negative entropy is an organic process. pretend we are a flowering plant for a moment. i'm not being a hippy, just listen: for the initial growth key nutrients are required in certain amounts. assuming the plant has grown in a climate that it has already adapted to, it needs nitrogen and potash to grow, and phosphorous only at the very end when it flowers, or fruits.

i'm not trying to say that we should start getting campy and dumb it down. quit the opposite. while reading this (http://pzwart.wdka.hro.nl/mdr/research/fcramer/wordsmadeflesh/03-chapter_2/#x5-60002), i came across a quote: “Harmonia est discordia concors,” harmony is concordant discord.

as for the fnording-types, the uses are many. i think it's good mna power, and they really don't even have to be brought here. the decentralized approach could be used in conjunction with a center of operations common only for that purpose. or whatever.

i personally am confident and comfotable enough with myself that being a marginal player only adding to manpower doesn't seem offensive at all, especially if we can actually get some shit done.

anyway, i've more vandalism to prepare for. thats my deuce.

[edit: originally was supposed to link to "words made flesh" article. fixed.]
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 29, 2007, 03:21:33 pm
I thought HIMEOBS was for actually DOING stuff and PD.com was just for shits and giggles and finding people that would be a good fit for HIMEOBS?

If not, please let me know so I can stop wasting my time trying to actually organize people to actually DO SOMETHING via HIMEOBS (which I thought might give things a reasonable chance of actually getting accomplished) and start wasting my time getting people to do stuff over here which will, according to historical precedent, be a complete fucking waste of what little free time I have.

Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2007, 03:43:28 pm
HIMEOBS doesn't have the manpower, in case you hadn't noticed.  Unless you are willing to break the law, there are no force multipliers that will make HIMEOBS carry the same punch as 80 odd 23pinealists runnin iMacro scripts that will flood a forum into submission.  Its all about the manpower.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 29, 2007, 03:50:01 pm
yeah, but what if, like me, you're of the opinion that "fuck the internets, it's all about IRL"?

in that scenario, wouldn't a dozen or so well-informed and dedicated people with their own networks of IRL contacts be more effective than a bunch of script kiddies playing at cybercrime?
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on December 29, 2007, 03:51:04 pm
this thread was about getting irl results, until everyone misread it and assumed it was about making a HIMEOBS clone.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 29, 2007, 04:12:10 pm
that's what I thought.

you get my PM?
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on December 29, 2007, 04:16:43 pm
yeah but i couldn't find the thread :/
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2007, 04:26:13 pm
Oh fine then.  I'll be over in the corner until you remember that there are countries other than the USA that people here post from.  If you ever do.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 29, 2007, 04:31:47 pm
well, if there's anyway I can help you with your UK endeavors, I'd be happy to help, but don't take it as a slight if I'm chosing to be Amero-centric right before the official start of our election season.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2007, 04:33:33 pm
After reading this last page, I'd rather stick with my own people.  They don't make me put some serious critical thinking into something before saying "nah, can't be fucked with it, we're going to do our own little thing, which you can't help with."
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on December 29, 2007, 04:38:17 pm
cain you're missing the direction i was going in.

the internet can function as a planning center and a resource center. we would have cellson the ground wherever we have members.

just because we're not in the same geographic vicinity doesnt mean we have to limit ourselves to the web
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2007, 04:40:54 pm
Cluephone ringing: you dont have any members.

Well, 20 odd.

Good luck with your impressive displays and lighting coordination via the internet.  I'm sure 20 people acting in concert across the country will wow the media.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 29, 2007, 04:45:11 pm
I wasn't thinking so much about getting media exposure, I was thinking about using the tactics at our disposal to effect concrete influence over things in a manner disproportionate to our physical numbers.

that doesn't have to include getting interviewed on CNN.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2007, 04:47:58 pm
Media is the only force multiplier that matters.  Without it, you're toast, especially with your small numbers available.  This place has about roughly 25 regular posters.  So unless you can figure out a way to effectively increase your impact to the number of several million, you're just as screwed.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: East Coast Hustle on December 29, 2007, 04:52:40 pm
I'm more concerned with results than with recognition, and I'm not convinced we need recognition to achieve results.

I've got anecdotal evidence to support my theory here, but if we want to go into detail we should probably do it somewhere more private.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on December 29, 2007, 05:01:28 pm
Back to OP: the pastafarians get results, and mostly through spamming email inboxes and news media comment boards.

but i guess if we can't hold a million-man march (which the Media would ignore anyway, mind you), we're powerless.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2007, 05:02:59 pm
I fail to see how any other force multipliers, bar the media, are going to tilt the balance in any sense in your favour.  This grouping is exceptionally small.  Ideally, you would want roughly Bostonian levels of Discordians in most major cities posting here, and the only way that is going to happen is if you go out recruiting.  Otherwise, there is no point.

Trust me, my group are dispersed during the summer, I know what I am talking about.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cramulus on December 29, 2007, 05:03:50 pm
I think this "project" would be easier to discuss if we had a concrete target or goal. This is in danger of getting talked to death on the floor because we're disagreeing not about intent, but about methodology. Right? Which doesn't mean much anyway unless we have a plan. I'm sensing that a lot of you are restless and want to get something done. This is the same sort of energy which produced the BIP metaphor, and we should follow it.

I think 20-some odd operatives are capable of a fuckton ...if they're coordinated.


Just to toss a silly jake idea out there:
(an attempt to threadjack towards productivity)
(but also to illustrate how 20-some odd netgoons can make a difference)

TGRR mentioned pranking the election cycle.

The Ron Paul followers are rabid. They're all over the web. And they respond IN FORCE and COORDINATION to nearly any mention of Ron Paul's name.


We don't have the manpower to blanket the web with propaganda, but we sure as hell have the manpower to pollute one or two of the more important information venues.


Imagine a significant push to identify Ron Paul as a Freemason (or something to that effect). We generate images and news and gossip which talks about his Masonic participation.

IRL calls or e-mails can be made to campaign headquarters and news outlets. We pick a big name blogger and swarm on him, causing him to mention Ron Paul = Freemason in some way. Work towards these ends is totally possible over the net or IRL.

This causes the Ron-Paulites to launch an equally large "RON PAUL IS NOT A FREEMASON" campaign, which is an awfully funny thing to spend manpower on.




Let's not become these four guys in this clip from Waking Life:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OtuYWyjk4ZI  :p
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2007, 05:09:07 pm
Back to OP: the pastafarians get results, and mostly through spamming email inboxes and news media comment boards.

but i guess if we can't hold a million-man march (which the Media would ignore anyway, mind you), we're powerless.

Thats a nice strawman, did you pick it up from Fox News?  (thats called poisoning the well, and its a much sneakier logical fallacy, fuckstick).

Now, try dealing with the actual content of my posts, instead of what you want me to say, or otherwise fuck off.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2007, 05:11:36 pm
Sorry Cram, your plan involves using the internet as something more than a glorified telephone service and must be disallowed.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cramulus on December 29, 2007, 05:14:53 pm
jesus christ
take a deeeeep breath

annnnnd

exhale




that goes for all of you

Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2007, 05:18:48 pm
Not me. 

I told people if they say they're going to be in, then they have to be in.

And the next day, people start backing out.

Whats more, I'm automatically frozen out of the process.  Nothing personal like, of course.  Well, apart from making me waste my time and get my hopes up before changing the conditions.

Why should I feel the need to be nice?
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cramulus on December 29, 2007, 05:27:27 pm
How are you frozen out of the process? We're all still discussing this.

I think you made a great post the other day, and I would consider that "1st Iteration". People reacted to it. From these reactions we should ultimately arrive at a second iteration which is more pleasing to all of our goals/capabilities than the first iteration. These things tend to be in the 3rd or 4th iteration (or more) by the time we're all comfortable.

But it's never gonna get past first iteration unless we're all flexible and receptive.

You should feel the need to be nice because although we disagree, we're on the same team. Namecalling starts to sound like bruised ego talk and is completely counterproductive.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on December 29, 2007, 05:35:17 pm
My terms were pretty clearly laid out in the initial discussion, and I'm not changing them now. I've addressed your concerns and you ignore me, so all I have left is "poisoning the well."

What I'm thinking of is something like a merger of HIMEOBS and AWS, where at least the idea of IRL results isn't scoffed at and dismissed out of hand before anything ever happens.

The MEDIA is not something you can manipulate with numbers, unless you have ENORMOUS numbers. The MEDIA has its own agenda and it will not report on things it deems threatening to that agenda. It doesn't matter if you're 25 yahoos from the Internet or 25,000 pissed off protesters in front of the White House. The Meda will ignore who it wants to ignore.

So, Cain, your contention that we "need" the Media, and in order to have it we "need" huge numbers of members, is false. With the Internet we can be the media. Just because it isn't easy doesn't mean a damn thing. Nobody's trying to freeze you out, it's just that not everyone is as quick to give up on real results.

imho, Lulz can be had in a much larger way if you can make an actual difference.

And yes -- "making a difference" is always the phrase used by bullshit revolutionaries and pipe-dreamers and everyone else. But we are cheating ourselves by dismissing the idea out of hand all the time. Small numbers of people have effected real change in the past. There is no reason why we should think it's impossible today, except as an excuse to pretend to hate the way things are while being too comfortable to actually care.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2007, 05:41:16 pm
Yeah, well maybe when you can decide whether the internet is going to be a field of operations or a "resource and communication center" I'll actually take your nitpicking seriously.  You don't even know what you yourselves are talking about.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on December 29, 2007, 05:47:36 pm
It can be both, Cain. A resource center in that we can gain recruits and, if we try hard enough, maybe finances. A field of operations in that we can concentrate our operations on the zones of the Internet that interface with people's real lives.

IRL operations would be distributing fliers and other nonsense. A canopy group that is capable of directing and coordinating both online and IRL missions for the purpose of accomplishing defined objectives would be a huge benefit to us, i think.

And it isn't like it's going to just happen overnight, like anything you have to grow it. It's small now and will be until it isn't anymore.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2007, 05:49:09 pm
How are you frozen out of the process? We're all still discussing this.

I think you made a great post the other day, and I would consider that "1st Iteration". People reacted to it. From these reactions we should ultimately arrive at a second iteration which is more pleasing to all of our goals/capabilities than the first iteration. These things tend to be in the 3rd or 4th iteration (or more) by the time we're all comfortable.

But it's never gonna get past first iteration unless we're all flexible and receptive.

You should feel the need to be nice because although we disagree, we're on the same team. Namecalling starts to sound like bruised ego talk and is completely counterproductive.

And what exactly am I going to do?  Waste more time providing ideas that are going to be ignored? 

Well apparently it wasn't great enough, because now people think its stupid.

I'm not on anyone's team, as has been made abundantly clear in this thread.  I'm on the subs bench, being told to come up with ideas which are only going to get ignored anyway.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2007, 05:50:09 pm
It can be both, Cain. A resource center in that we can gain recruits and, if we try hard enough, maybe finances. A field of operations in that we can concentrate our operations on the zones of the Internet that interface with people's real lives.

IRL operations would be distributing fliers and other nonsense. A canopy group that is capable of directing and coordinating both online and IRL missions for the purpose of accomplishing defined objectives would be a huge benefit to us, i think.

And it isn't like it's going to just happen overnight, like anything you have to grow it. It's small now and will be until it isn't anymore.

And how are you going to accomplish any of your objectives with 25 people?

Oh wait, you aren't?

Isn't that what I've been saying for the last PAGE AND A HALF?
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on December 29, 2007, 05:54:06 pm
so we start recruiting. we just need to agree on a general direction to take this thing.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 29, 2007, 05:58:17 pm
So now we have an explicit and coherent plan for action being replaced by an incoherent and undeveloped one.  Fantastic.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on December 29, 2007, 09:09:27 pm
 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

I love how well you all play together ;-)

OK, I'm going to pretend like this is going well and push on.

Cain, I agree with your point that massive numbers (80+) online would easily take down most sites, including most major ones. I think that the Internet has taken the role of our master communication system. It's made it very easy to get right in front of many, many faces and it can, if handled by smart people turn 80 into half a million, in the perception of others. To ignore the importance and potential of this medium would be folly.

Vex and ECH do have a point as well... there still exists somewhat of a wall between the net and reality. As long as we only attack in cyberspace, we exist as a threat only in some sense. Even a small physical force can accent a well designed Cyberspace attack, leading to something far larger than the sum of its parts.

Here's my thought. Right now we have a very small presence, both physically and virtually. We need to grow both... virtual is the most simple and will de facto grow our physical presence (since each virtual foot soldier has a physical presence). Recruiting seems an easy split... I recommend we ask the Professor to create some flyers that will pique the interest of new converts and all existing physical members stick them in physical places... the flyers point to here (or our recruitment center etc.)

At the same time we craft some sort of message to post at all known Discordian websites/forums, directing interested people here. That should get us a response.

We next need to plan out a series of projects to keep everyone interested and active... Discordians get distracted easily, I think.

1. Virtual Education: We need classes, essays and chat sessions on training, both for virtual and physical mayhem. I recommend we tell all newbies that the schedule is two weeks of training, Labs in local mayhem, forming your own cabal, restoring the "balance" of a virtual community and an Orbital Bombardment for the Final Test. It gives them training and us a chance to see who is useful and who is cannon fodder.

2. By the end of the first two weeks, we should have a large virtual force and a small (yet larger than now) physical cabal presence. At that point we need to have two or three real/specific projects in the works, both physical and virtual. Virtual attacks are usually in a specific time attack On till the site dies... Physical projects can have a wider berth (these 1000 flyers need posted around your city in the next week).

That means that we need to have class stuff ready BEFORE the n00bs show up and have the forst several projects ready by the time that they graduate.

Once we get that far, we can start arguing about which is better.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Triple Zero on December 29, 2007, 10:49:23 pm
Quote from: Cain
(does ANYONE know how to work this thing yet?)

oh, right, thanks for reminding me. i still need to play with that toy.

i'll whip up a new firefox profile right now (as i dont want an unknown FF extension messing up my medium-secure FFox config) and start playing.

(...)

okay, this seems to be really, really easy. check out the two online demos and you can see for yourself (they take about 5 minutes to watch both, and you don't need to install the plugin to view the demos, they're just flash-movie screenshots, showing how to do a few simple things):
http://www.iopus.com/imacros/home/fx/welcome.htm

especially the second, form-filling, example is interesting. as it can easily be used for auto-posting.

i'm pretty sure iMacros has a lot more advanced commands for automating stuff, i'll play with that later on.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Iron Sulfide on December 30, 2007, 06:08:37 am
maybe we don't have to go after direct media attention at all.

in the Anatomy of a meme thread, someone mentioned that it would probably be easier to alter a product to fit the effective meme, than to effectively meme an existing product...maybe we could use a vehicle for the media, like a trojan horse, and market the fuck out of it. it could easily be modeled to appear benign and commonplace, which will be it's charm and defense...obviously, though, it isn't. that's why BiP won't appeal to the masses, necessarily.

of course, the reverse could also be tried: instead of creating a marketing vehicle ourselves, we exploit already existing ones (more of what i felt cain was speaking of).  my opinion on the name, personally, whether GAK or HIMEOBS or some other such is that while attractive to ourselves, doesn't market very well. maybe, i'm more stuck on contemplating the actual "product" than the...whatever it is we're talking about. either way, anything remotely discordian that is presented to the media- mainstream or indy, doesn't really matter- really shouldn't appear remotely close to that.

i know, these are retarded points that you've all already thought of, but i'm feeling frustrated that this is turning into a creation/evolution style rift.

i'm serious about my intents with this, but i don't have much time to devote to online stuff, personally. there are several people in my vicinity who do, who are fellows, or at least sympathetic. as such, i'm on the middle path: we really have to combine the two venues of action. obviously, not everybody will have the same availability and level of commitment. cain, you have limited physical opportunity to do much, you say, but you're capable of more than five times what i would be in technical application. that's great. I'm more capable of discrete dissemination and other physical projects right now. it's not about reducing either of the areas to a part, we're supposed to be connecting those parts- or i'm obviously missing something, somewhere.

manually breathing...now.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Steady on December 30, 2007, 07:54:05 am
so long, woodwork.

(http://i272.photobucket.com/albums/jj163/img57/BRRRREAKINGNEWS.jpg)


this is a screenshot of the FRONT PAGE of cnn.com, taken about 5 mins ago. a large portion of the stories are about totally ridiculous, irrelevant, "funny" shit that involve a very small amount of players. obviously having so many of these stories attracting this much attention at once is rare, but i DO see a lot of this in the media, especially local, "quirky" sources.

i agree with cram. obviously there needs to be a motive before talk about method gets too involved, but the media does pick up on small events. the issue is what events it decides to pick up on, with countless weird things happening every second. LOST RING TURNS UP IN FUDGE. a year or so ago, my grandmother discovered a wedding ring in a crabcake and returned it to the worker at the deli who had lost it. it's an almost identical situation. would cnn have written that story up if my family had made the effort to communicate it? we live in maryland, crab-town; it would have made a nice blurb. if not cnn, i'm almost certain a baltimore/local-based newspaper would have picked it up. and that's a larger audience than almost any stray forum.

if we want a REVOLUTION, yeah, manpower is key. but if all we want is attention, or advertising, it might be possible to manipulate the media on a smaller scale.

tl;dr: cnn posts neighborhood oddities on their front page. i am interested, and i have time. i would need training. hi, PD. thanks for letting me lurk forever.
-Steady
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 30, 2007, 06:40:30 pm
You need a definitive goal.  And if that goal is the opening shot in a campaign, you need to use it to be able to make a plausible promise to the right sort of audiences (the sort of people you want to attract or aid you).
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on December 30, 2007, 07:32:16 pm
I am reminded of the class I took on starting your own cult. It was taught by Rev. Ivan Stang and covered a lot of these sorts of topics. In Stang's case, he found that creating the propaganda in a convincing manner was the key... goals were a later game. People want to feel like they are part of something bigger, perhaps our natural "cog" tendency. People that are "Discordian" or who might be recruited by Discordians often seem keen to be a cog in the machine that fucks with the machine. Once the cogs are in place, the machine tends to work (if you apply energy and keep this mechanical metaphor lubed). I think its obvious what the initial goal seems to be here... at least a thread that seems common among all of the posts is a need for numbers of participants (IRL or IVL) willing to engage in ELF/LDD/OM/HIMEOBS/etc.

I see this new machine as a Time Sharing sort of device, like an old mainframe... we have some number of cycles dedicated to IRL we have some number of cycles dedicated to IVL and we have developers (Cain, Vex, Cram, etc) who, I think could easily use this new platform to further develop concepts that are currently in need of more RAM and CPU. ;-)

So I would hazard that our first goal is to design the machine (figure out the logistics of how we want to put this together), then get the cogs in place (advertise, advertise, advertise), finally turn it on and start hacking brains (take to post graduates on virtual attacks and use them as cells to do IRL shit.

I'm gonna start working on essays etc for n00bs and come up with a couple projects for post-grads. I hope everyone else does the same.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on December 30, 2007, 07:45:47 pm
I'll work on an essay on the guerrilla/netwar mindset.  Its something I have a lot of time invested in, and is probably the single most useful model to work from currently.

Edit: this will take a while.  Much of my excellent dead tree reference work is locked up 500 miles away from me.  If someone else can work on other aspects in the meantime, I'll either reconstruct what I can from my memory, or else work it into my writing when I get back a week from now.  But steam may run out without other inputs before then.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on December 30, 2007, 07:58:54 pm
This is a good direction.

Rat: I like the points you bring up about the machine you build tending to work if you design the parts and assign those parts. For this reason I think we should design the organization, begin going through the motions of membership, and then define its direction.

To stretch your metaphor, the organization is like a computer program. Once you embed that program into the members, it will determine what gets done.

So far, it's been a complete free-for-all -- which is good as far as it goes -- but if we want to start accomplishing things we need to set definitions and variables, and put the thing into practice.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on December 31, 2007, 02:36:36 am
This is a good direction.

Rat: I like the points you bring up about the machine you build tending to work if you design the parts and assign those parts. For this reason I think we should design the organization, begin going through the motions of membership, and then define its direction.

To stretch your metaphor, the organization is like a computer program. Once you embed that program into the members, it will determine what gets done.

So far, it's been a complete free-for-all -- which is good as far as it goes -- but if we want to start accomplishing things we need to set definitions and variables, and put the thing into practice.

I agree entirely.

Meatspace recruitment is something I'll try to wrap my head around for a first essay.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: LMNO on December 31, 2007, 02:08:43 pm
I'm still interested in using my limited and meager abilities/resources in whatever way I can, be it conceptual, or actual.

Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 31, 2007, 11:19:39 pm
I think this "project" would be easier to discuss if we had a concrete target or goal. This is in danger of getting talked to death on the floor because we're disagreeing not about intent, but about methodology. Right? Which doesn't mean much anyway unless we have a plan. I'm sensing that a lot of you are restless and want to get something done. This is the same sort of energy which produced the BIP metaphor, and we should follow it.

I think 20-some odd operatives are capable of a fuckton ...if they're coordinated.


Just to toss a silly jake idea out there:
(an attempt to threadjack towards productivity)
(but also to illustrate how 20-some odd netgoons can make a difference)

TGRR mentioned pranking the election cycle.

The Ron Paul followers are rabid. They're all over the web. And they respond IN FORCE and COORDINATION to nearly any mention of Ron Paul's name.


We don't have the manpower to blanket the web with propaganda, but we sure as hell have the manpower to pollute one or two of the more important information venues.


Imagine a significant push to identify Ron Paul as a Freemason (or something to that effect). We generate images and news and gossip which talks about his Masonic participation.

IRL calls or e-mails can be made to campaign headquarters and news outlets. We pick a big name blogger and swarm on him, causing him to mention Ron Paul = Freemason in some way. Work towards these ends is totally possible over the net or IRL.

This causes the Ron-Paulites to launch an equally large "RON PAUL IS NOT A FREEMASON" campaign, which is an awfully funny thing to spend manpower on.




Let's not become these four guys in this clip from Waking Life:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OtuYWyjk4ZI  :p

I love this.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 01, 2008, 12:29:04 pm
The only problem with pranking the Ron Paul lot, as I see it is

1.  We might alienate the sort of people who would otherwise be on side with us (obviously not the Nazis, Christian militias and extreme Libertarians, but everyone else)
2.  The PaulBots look for revenge
3.  We waste the resources of people who were never going to win anyway.


Now, if we were to do a false flag action which bought the PaulBots into direct conflict with a major Presidential player, on the other hand...their considerable online resources will be doing in targets we want. 

In Australia's recent election, the ruling Liberal Party had members who had been handing out leaflets pretending to be an Islamic group thanking Labor for, essentially, supporting terrorism, for example.

You can download campaign logos and contact information for nothing, and a decent quality printer and decent paper will make the flyer look like a real one.  It's really just a matter of choosing who you think, out of the Repubs and Democrats, who will provoke the largest and most interesting reactions from the Ron Paul camp, if an attack campaign were launched against him.  It seems, so far, to be a fairly open race still, but I would suggest Hillary, Huckabee and Giuliani.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cramulus on January 01, 2008, 04:42:56 pm
Good points Cain, thanks for the response.



Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 01, 2008, 06:23:15 pm
The only problem with pranking the Ron Paul lot, as I see it is

1.  We might alienate the sort of people who would otherwise be on side with us (obviously not the Nazis, Christian militias and extreme Libertarians, but everyone else)
2.  The PaulBots look for revenge
3.  We waste the resources of people who were never going to win anyway.


Now, if we were to do a false flag action which bought the PaulBots into direct conflict with a major Presidential player, on the other hand...their considerable online resources will be doing in targets we want. 

In Australia's recent election, the ruling Liberal Party had members who had been handing out leaflets pretending to be an Islamic group thanking Labor for, essentially, supporting terrorism, for example.

You can download campaign logos and contact information for nothing, and a decent quality printer and decent paper will make the flyer look like a real one.  It's really just a matter of choosing who you think, out of the Repubs and Democrats, who will provoke the largest and most interesting reactions from the Ron Paul camp, if an attack campaign were launched against him.  It seems, so far, to be a fairly open race still, but I would suggest Hillary, Huckabee and Giuliani.

Lots of good info here. I concur.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 01, 2008, 07:49:08 pm
I once worked dirty tricks for a similar, if less important campaign.  There were only 2 runners however, so setting up and using the disinformation machine, once it was in place, became much easier.

Alternatively, if we could find some Ron Paul activists we could "work with", things become even easier.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: ybom on January 02, 2008, 04:53:23 am
Cain, that was well thought out.

However, one would need to figure out the "hot spots" of the campaign and push those buttons more. How about something involving the violation of a Paul supporter's rights and posting it on youtube?

Another idea is to go the opposite route, to set up a "legit" online poll (or 50) and showing Paul as the winner, claiming it to be a scientific poll and so on.

And funnier yet would get a Ron Paul lookalike to do certain things, hilarious things, anarchist things, and really scare people away (or draw them closer). I was expecting something like this to happen a few months ago, but it's sad nothing has happened yet.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 02, 2008, 11:05:07 pm
Thanks.  Good ideas too, keep them rolling.


On the theoretical side of things....


Alright, time to get down and dirty.  Its time to fight our war, the war against our chosen targets.  Get some Golden Apples rolling and smack more than a few Greyfaces about the place.  Warfare is the art of conflict, and conflict is just a modern way of saying strife...which is directly within our chosen area of interest.

I'm going to teach you some highly useful models for understanding the tactical, strategical and organizational methods of modern warfare.  These models have great potential, can be intuitively grasped (well, I find it to be so.  Your perception may vary) and transfer perfectly to less outright modes of conflict and with the internet.  Internalizing these will give you one hell of an edge when it comes to running your own private insurgency – regardless of who its against or how it's waged.

But to understand these models, you gotta have a grip on what came before.  These models are not 100% accurate.  They overlap, they contradict and they are conceptually uncertain.  However, they make a fantastic roadmap in this nearly unknown territory so I suggest you learn them and start thinking about their application.  Once you can see and understand the dividing lines, you'll have a reference guide for the models everyone else is using – plus a little edge or two with models that are outside even the sophisticated person's experience.

The general guide however for modern war is “nothing is forbidden, everything is permitted.”  It's less bloody than previous wars, for various reasons (relating to perception of one's actions, mostly), but no less brutal.  Keep in mind you may have cause to apply the above maxim if you want success.

1st Generation Warfare

Warfare by attrition.   You lose less people and resources than the other side, and if your side is the one left standing when the dust clears, you win.  Historically, a bad way of fighting unless you can ensure you have the biggest battalions on the battlefield.


2nd Generation Warfare

Manoeuvre based warfare.  Here the idea is you utilize better and faster weaponry to act as an equalizer to the sheer numbers held by the enemy.  If you can shoot, move and communicate more effectively as a whole, then you will win.  Think Napoleon or the German Blitzkrieg.


3rd Generation Warfare

Here a distinction between hard and soft power in conflict starts to be made.  In addition to the above two methods, psychological operations, intelligence and knowledge based technology act as force multipliers, which paralyse instead of merely crush enemy operations.

4th Generation Warfare

Primary characteristic of this is asymmetry.  This mode of conflict is used by the weak against the strong, and its defining methods involve the use of organization, plans and acts different from ones opponents, taking advantage of their weaknesses, attaining the initiative and maximizing ones own strengths.  Naturally, it has both physical and psychological dimensions, and is often disliked and little understood by the status quo, because of the perceived “dirty nature” of the methods used.


5th Generation Warfare

This method emphasizes the use of information and high technology, again aimed at civilian and military targets.  On one level, we can compare it to Maoist and CIA-backed “armed propaganda units” who operated in central and south America.  These are organized around psychological, political and military objectives – in that exact order.  This can also include financial/economic warfare, media based warfare, cyber-warfare, many aspects of netwar and “to fight the fight that fits ones weapons, and to make [asymmetric] weapons to fit the fight.”  All means, lethal and non-lethal, military or not, come into play in order to make the enemy accept your interests.

6th Generation Warfare

Often colloquially known as the “new terror” method of warfare this method elaborates on all previous models, but emphasizes biological and informational methods to achieve ones goals.  These methods can vary – infecting bank computers with a certain virus to initiate a stock market crash, spreading rumours that lead to the fall of the government, but also include the use of specific bio-weapons, such as the poisoning of a major metropolitan water source, the use of an airborne virus spread on the subway, or the introduction of foreign illnesses, such as Mad Cow Disease.  All lines between military and civilian targets break down, as well as ethical restraints on the use of weapons.  The battlefield extends from the biological composition of the individual, to their psyche, to the sociology and physical area of the entire state.


Now, naturally only 3, 4 and 5 really interest us, along with the informational elements of 6.  The trick is to understand the different models show higher levels of understanding, but alone they are useless.  When combined in a “Chinese cocktail”, they can become devastatingly effective however.  A sneak financial attack could be made to unsettle a nation, using sabotage and capital to disorder to the markets.  Meanwhile, paid propagandists, both in the media and among the general level of the population spread rumours about government inefficiency.  An isolated terrorist attack, combined with a virus initiated attack on financial institutions buries the government in question, and the new one that comes to power is one much more close to the interests of the unseen attacker.

Along with this, I'm going to upload my own “cocktail”, some military manuals dealing mostly with the first 3 methods of conflict.  I want you to read them, study them, think about the advice given and try and sort it into these models.  These books are well read, so it will also give you an insight into what others are thinking.

But when I finish the second essay, I'll give you netwar – the edge most people don't even know about.  Then, you'll have not only an advantage, but a flexible and highly useful organizational model as well.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 02, 2008, 11:14:12 pm
Oh, and here's your reading

http://www.mediafire.com/?c9wwwimxyk1
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cramulus on January 03, 2008, 04:23:02 am
Good post Cain. I hadn't seen the generations of warfare explained so succinctly.

but if we're only concerned with generations 3, 4, and 5,
...is it necessary to read all 270 pages dealing with mostly the first three generations?

we revolutionaries have short attention spans apparently  :p
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on January 03, 2008, 06:01:49 am
lol (http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/02/prankster-playing-bhuttos-son-on-facebook-fools-news-outlets/?hp)
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: LMNO on January 03, 2008, 01:00:36 pm
Wow. 

Ok, gonna read this today.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cramulus on January 03, 2008, 02:13:11 pm
lol (http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/02/prankster-playing-bhuttos-son-on-facebook-fools-news-outlets/?hp)

AHAHAHAHHAHAHA

THAT IS AWSOM

and it looks like this disinfo campaign has been a two man team - this kid and his roommate. STRAIGHT UP
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 03, 2008, 03:21:13 pm
Good post Cain. I hadn't seen the generations of warfare explained so succinctly.

but if we're only concerned with generations 3, 4, and 5,
...is it necessary to read all 270 pages dealing with mostly the first three generations?

we revolutionaries have short attention spans apparently  :p

Its worth skimming them, at least.  No deep thoughts or anything, just have a general idea of what they are.

I'll be getting onto organizational concepts that tie in with these models in a couple of days.  Until then, I suggest other people develop similar avenues concerning structure, so we can see what we come up with.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: LMNO on January 03, 2008, 06:18:59 pm
Oh, and here's your reading

http://www.mediafire.com/?c9wwwimxyk1


Hold on-- which one should we be reading first?
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 03, 2008, 08:05:20 pm
Doesn't really matter.  I would assume you would read my post first, since its shorter.

Speaking of things which are not short, I just finished a 10 page work on what I think our organizational structure should be.

Enjoy


Netwar: fighting in networks

These concepts are not new, but they have had difficulty catching on in a world caught up in hierarchy addiction instead of effectiveness.  However, it is precisely for these reasons I believe we should adopt them in their entirety. 

Netwar is a shorthand for network war, or more accurately, war waged by networks instead of top-down, hierarchical institutions, such as the traditional military.  The difference in how information is shared, group adaptability, tactical innovation and defensive measures make this far more resilient and yet able to capitalize on new innovations and changes in environment more than top-down processes can, giving it a decided edge.

Netwar has found wide acceptance among the theorists of insurgency and modern guerilla warfare in describing the actions of diverse actors such as Al-Qaeda and Los Zetas, yet little has been found on how to counter it, except by the creation of counter-networks, which are disliked by the same sort of people who shy away from 4th generation warfare, for similar reasons.  Even so, there is no reason to expect a network to fight as well against a rival network, except for the failure of previous models to do so.

So in short, right now this organizational model is at the top of its game.  With no plausible alternative and the failure of previous models, as well as a history of working well under pressure and diverse situations, it is all we could ask for.


Overview: networks and hierarchies.

Netwar is an organizational phenomenon, which utilizes 4 different phases, as we currently understand it.  The first type of network is a set of scattered, barely connected clusters, with limited communication between them.  This is pretty much the current state of much of Discordianism.  The second stage is that of a hub and spoke design, where one cluster becomes the main hub, to which all others are connected, but the clusters do not connect with each other.  This eventually evolves into a multi-hub structure which then becomes a complex core-periphery network with major communication taking place between most channels and most clusters being connected.

The above model takes into account group clusters, which we could view both as cells and as websites where Discordians are found.  So for example, PD.com is a hub between HIMEOBS, EB&G and POEE.  On the individual level, we consider individuals as “nodes” instead of clusters.  Nodes which have more links and carry more information are more important.  Thus myself, having a presence on all 4 sites and a moderator position on three of them, am considered a more high value node than a new member.  High value nodes connect or disconnect a network, depending on their status.  With the core-periphery or multi-hub model, while nodes act as the “glue” which hold clusters together, they are not as vital as they are to hierarchical systems.  Collapsing a node is done to prevent the information they have passing through them to the rest of the network.  In a netwar model other nodes can carry the information overload with little problem because there are enough of them, whereas in a hierarchical system, it can collapse the organization because an information cascade works down through the system, paralysing it.

Against hierarchical systems, attacks on high value nodes, those most interconnected socially and those who have access to the most information, is of high priority.  We normally call this “assassination”, though it can take may other forms.  But networks high resilience makes them immune to the loss of even their best known leaders.

How networks are measured.

The creators of netwar came up with 5 methods of measurement for their creation.  This is organizational ability itself (as addressed above), along with narrative, social, doctrinal (tactical) and technological level.  Keep those in mind as we go through this, that though we are concentrating on organizational aspects, the others should be considered once we decide how to organize.


Concentric circles.

This is the current Al-Qaeda model that has proved so successful in waging a revolutionary international war (something previously only states did).

The Inner Circle

This is the Command Centre of Al-Qaeda, as it were, a core of several hundred or so leaders especially close to Bin Laden, both socially and in ideology.  They may not be in physical contact with Bin Laden, but they are via communication systems, or else via close knowledge of his goals, and thus can direct attacks without having to directly approve them all with him.

The Second Ring

These are the Holy Warriors of Al-Qaeda, those experienced Mujahideen who fought in Afghanistan, either aiding the Taliban or against American forces.  Many of these dispersed to their home countries or other battlefields once their training was complete, to recruit and raise their own forces

The New Wave Ring

These are the 'second generation' AQ members, either taught directly by an AQ member from the Second Ring or via their publications and institutional knowledge (such as the Encyclopaedia of the Afghan Jihad, an 8000 page training manual that has preserved much of Al-Qaeda's hard gained knowledge, free for those interested to learn from).  Often recruited locally, they are ideologically driven by agreement with Bin Laden's world-view, learnt via the internet and similar ways,

The Fourth Ring

These are the outsiders, the otherwise normal Muslims who are otherwise sympathetic to Bin Laden and willing to aid in non-violent methods – such as raising funds, engaging in minor theft, giving safe haven, providing food or intelligence etc... It also acts as a pool of recruits for the New Wave ring (who often know local allegiances very well) should they be needed for a local operation.


Networks in depth

Inherently hierarchical organizations can be represented by a pyramid.  The decision-makers are at the top and their commands eventually filter down to the bottom level soldiers.  Information on their effectiveness is passed back up the chain and is then modified. 

Networks are the post-modern response to this.  They are characterized by nodes/cells, information channels, ease of connectivity and flat information integration.  Free floating cells and nodes replace the usual hierarchical structures, and these are linked by mutually beneficial information channels which form a web-like pattern between cells and nodes of the entity as a whole.  These channels benefit from ease of connection, which allows them to be created, maintained or terminated as required, with little or no effort.  Because all cells and nodes can link to each other, middle layers are done away with, resulting in flat information integration.  This effectively destroys the gap between observation and change that is found to be so cumbersome in pyramid based models.

Networks are not self-contained systems, by their nature.  Operational features are spread out throughout the entire network, across the system of nodes and cells.  As a result, the network gains multiple capabilities, often without the expense of focus on specialist capabilities that limits operational ability.

In addition to speed and special offensive and defensive options available, they also gain operational (“Combat”) based advantages because of collective vision/leaderless resistance and emergence, which will be discussed more below.  However, this combat advantage is gained later on due to outside linkage and maturity, and will not be present in a new network.

Note: no network is entirely flat.  However, the flatter, the better.

Speed

Networked structures gain increased information flows due to the vast number of information channels (cross-linkages) that exist in various nodes/cells.  This results in more information being shared and discussed, which results in an information multiplier effect.  Also, because of an operational organizational bias, those best able to act on new information will receive it sooner and be able to capitalize on it.

Discordian example: information gleaned from other forums, chatrooms, websites, personal acquaintances and those purchased by “other means” can all be transmitted back into the network far faster, by getting it to PD.com and allowing it to be copied to the relevant blogs, forums, chatrooms and Myspace/Facebook bulletins and notices.


Reduction of Information Fiefdoms

An “information fiefdom” describes how an organization hangs onto sensitive and important data, in order to improve its own standing and ability within bureaucratic in-fights.  Many, especially modern intelligence services and corporate departments, have become information “black holes” where information enters, but never exits from.  However, networks treat information sharing as a sum-sum games (“I win, you win”) instead.  This overcomes artificial political boundaries.

Discordian example:  I upload tons of media that I gained at no cost but have learnt from or enjoyed, so that others may do the same.  Lysergic has done similar things for myself and Triple Zero, sharing his large amounts of information on NLP.  I am currently working through my library to separate the most useful e-books I have for Discordians, which upon completion I will upload to various sites, and I will update when possible.  Institutional knowledge gained from the creation and operations of this network should be treated in the same way, creating a body of knowledge we can all use.


Filtering/Fusion capability.

This involves, once true information has been gained (by the elimination of Information Fiefdoms), this results in multiple pieces and sources of information being brought together to gain new insights about the operational environment and actions of other groups.  Networks essentially filter out white noise while making use of the information available, due to their size and ability to share information loads.  This process allows Essential Information Identification to take place.

Discordian example:  Through making personal contacts with many of the TCC rebels, I was able to gain much information and psychological insights on various members of the forum still loyal to the old regime.  This was then shared with the rest of HIMEOBS, allowing them to process it and use the information contained within to choose selective targets, as well as set a tempo of attacks which wore the administration team down, demoralizing the site.


Parallel processing/multi-tasking

Instead of an apex decision-maker working top down on a problem, a network can divide a problem among several cells and work on parts of it that way, then create a coherent model once all sections of the problem are solved.

Discordian example:  allow nodes to be responsible for choosing their targets.  Once the network is alerted that a certain node/cell has found a worthy target, they can consider various plans and methods of attack, before giving this advice to the node, to see how they act.  Also, by alerting other nodes to their plans, specialized personnel who may be needed, as well as resources/information can be transferred to that cell more easily, giving a higher level of operational flexibility.



Offensive

These are broadly divided into two, which are destructive/seizure in nature (thing-targeted), or disruptive (non-thing targeted.  Networks excel at disruption, whereas hierarchies tend to be better at the former.


Swarming

Swarming is a scheme of manoeuvre based on a convergent attack of several semi-autonomous units on a specific target within a certain fixed location.  It allows a force to be hit from several directions, greatly improving its vulnerability, and afterwards the units involved scatter, making them hard to trace.  This requires a robust flow of information, that MUST be protected from the target in question, while at the same time freely shared among the members of the network who could possibly take part.

Discordian example: I was one of the few people who helped set up a local Flashmob group, via mutual friends on Facebook.  Back in those days, Facebook was only available to students still, protecting the information flow.  We requested people give us their mobile numbers, and we would send a warning text the day before, preparing people, then send out the actual target roughly an hour before it was to be hit.  To vary things, we would sometimes insist on a fairly easy theme (play “tag”, everyone make out, giant street football match etc) which required minimal preparation, as well as a pre-arranged signal indicating it was time to scatter.


Distributed sensor-to-shooter links.

Basically, this means the people relaying information back to you don't need to be part of your operational teams.  This allows more operational resources to be placed on weaknesses the target has, creating greater efficiency.  It also means resources do not need to be expended defending the information sources.

Discordian example: by relying on non-trolls to feed us information back on reactions to our attacks on TCC, we didn't need to waste valuable proxies and accounts gathering information on this.  Instead, these resources were put towards later strikes, which had improved targeting based on our own, in-site resources.


Bond-Relationship Targeting

This is a form of attack that relies on tailored disruption of a target and its environment, by altering, destroying, warping or otherwise changing the relationships which define its existence.  Instead of the thing itself being attacked, the bonds which give it strength and coherence are, undermining its overall power in an attempt to indirectly collapse the target.

Discordian example:  the HIMEOBS strategy against TCC was very explicit in cutting off TCC's external references to their behaviour and policy, so they could no longer react with nuance and subtlety, or with the tact and proportion the situation called for.  By severing a new base of members, opening divisions within their ranks by misinformation and applied propaganda and reinforcing a generally negative viewpoint of the state of the forum, we forced the terms of debate among members of the site themselves, leading to egocentric social monomania, where the forum became the main topic of conversation and all drama was directed into that context.  Other examples would be attacking MW by spreading negative propaganda on other Pagan sites about it, as well as carrying out attacks on its administration via Myspace (which they advertised themselves on at their site).


Attack masking/virtual network

Because networks can easily drop connections between nodes and recreate them, it becomes hard to tell who actually ordered the attack.  Instead it becomes a game of plausible deniability versus an ability to connect the dots.  This danger is magnified in cyberspace, where neutral or even enemy networks can be compromised and turned against a third party (think Lulzkillers vs 4chan vs g00ns).  The greatest asset of this is the virtual cell, one which is created from above by a command and control cell, with people who have never met before, to carry out a single operation, after which they disperse.

Discordian examples:  Discordians have often allied with local forces on various forums when their enemies have been unreasonable admins, but this has be under utilized, as far as I know.  I have tried to incorporate it into PFLD operations, but only with limited success so far, though this may be “small world syndrome” bought on by a small town and University life.  DDoS attacks using slave computers would fall under this category, however.



Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 03, 2008, 08:08:18 pm
Defensive

Defence goes beyond usual mechanistic notions of protection that come from a 4 dimensional understanding of the battlefield.  Instead, defence can be defined as the network's ability to evade attack, withstand physical punishment, heal injuries, limit damage to its information channels and to keep the information it does possess safe.


Stealth-masking its members

Networks seek to shield their cells by keeping the true nature of their relationship to each other secret, and/or by masking their nature as a combatant from enemies.  One way to do this is to compartmentalize members on the periphery and the less secure segments of the structure away from the trusted core membership.  Another method is disguising operatives as non-operatives (no wacky costumes, obvious Discordian paraphernalia etc)

Discordian example: when doing mindfucks, we always carry out basic reconnaissance and dress suitably for the occasion in question.  We seek to blend in entirely until the moment we act, and in all our dealings with the people around us.  If that means mouthing Marxist propaganda one night and Libertarian free trade mantras the next, so be it.  Same for wearing suits, or gothing it up.  Equally, HIMEOBS often observes possible members over a reasonably long period of time, both to assess their ability to the group, and as to not bring people of questionable loyalty into the heart of operations planning. 


Impervious to decapitation strikes

Because of the decentralized nature, with no key decision making body, no key leadership targets can be defined for a decapitation strike.  There is no 'head of the beast' you can cut off and expect to halt operations with.  Immunity to this basic form of disruption is a huge advantage.

Discordian example: in the event of the absence of myself or ECH, vexati0n, Professor Cramulus etc are more than capable of planning and carrying out an operation.  Equally, should PD.com or any of our individual computers be targeted by hackers, being able to switch to HIMEOBS, EB&G, Facebook, various blogs etc means the cell in question can regroup and respond to the attack while taking minimal damage.


Offers protection against precision fire

An example pretty similar to above.  Because the network is spread out over multiple locations, time and effort must be expended in finding and breaking them all apart, well out of proportion to their actual numbers.  This makes identification and destruction of the highest value nodes very hard to achieve, because of this signal/noise ratio of protection.

Discordian example:  as described above.  Stealth-masking capabilities in mindfucking attempts and dispersal of lines of communication over several sites give us this protection to a large degree, though conscious awareness of it will make us use it more (for example, we have to consider that POEE and HIMEOBS are on the same server, as are EB&G and AWS).


Provides Redundant Information Channels

This makes networks more resilient when faced with node/cell focussed information channel attacks.  This robustness means that far more of the structure of the network has to be destroyed before it can effect information flow, because there are so many channels open to it.

Discordian example:  when PD.com went down unexpectedly in February of last year, I was able to use EB&G, POEE and HIOF to alert everyone as to what had happened, as well as what I was planning to do in order to stop it (cry until someone else fixed it).  This got the message to the vast number of members of the site.  With improved numbers of people visiting my blog, the existence of AWS, the Facebook PD.com group etc there are even more channels open now, meaning this is one of our strengths.


Self-Healing

Networks are notoriously resilient to conventional forms of attack that would damage them.  Networks can also create new nodes to replace lost ones, as well as re-route information channels around damaged or missing nodes.

Discordian example:  we have the emails of thousands of people who were interested enough in Discordianism to sign up to PD.com.  Perhaps we should utilize them?  Since few Discordians have “died” or “got lost” in our previous conflicts, this is not an issue we have had to explore much.  However, it does tie into recruitment, which I will touch on again at the end of this article.


Information security

Networks can protect the information they collect, store and transmit by creating and following infosec protocol.  These protocols dictate how the cells and nodes communicate with each other and the type of form the network takes to achieve that goal.

Discordian example:  I hid the O:MF forum from lurkers, so anyone wishing to view the information in that part of the site also had to give me some information.  Forum URLs for attack either use the anonym prefix, or hxxp, to mask referral records.  The entire HIMEOBS forum is both hidden from general access and being able to view without an account, making it impossible to know what is being discussed.

Further improvements could include an agreed on code system, which would allow for public forums to act as message carriers without direct implication, as well as use of emails and specially created hidden forums to achieve goals.



Combat/Operational Multipliers

These were added because of unique advantages networks gain due to their organizational model.  What should really be noted is the biological descriptions that are used, as well as the general 'aliveness' of the model, as opposed to hierarchical structures, which tend to be mechanical in nature.


Increasing returns as the network grows

As they grow, networks operate in a manner contradictory to hierarchical structures.  Whereas the latter see diminishing returns as they grow too large, networks continue to see increasing returns and value.  More nodes and cells means more information, more personnel able to carry out operations and a generally better operational environment.

Discordian example

By having several different type of Discordian websites, those attracted most to a particular brand of Discordianism can go to that site and feel attachment to their label without questioning their identity too much.  However, this is an area we need to improve on, by more recruiting.


Ease of growth.

No real impediments exist to the growth of networks, as they use simple and chaotic models which self-organize, and the barrier of entry is often low (declaring oneself to be a Discordian and finding a site to network with other Discordians).  All that is really required is the extension of information channels to others who wish to join the network, though deeper levels of connection may be moderated by issues of trust.

Discordian example: to become a member of PD.com only requires one to sign up with a username and valid email address.  Equally, Discordian groups that appear on social networking sites only require membership, nothing more.


Mission tailoring

Instead of using a one-size-fits-all military response force, networks can tailor operational groups to the mission at hand.  A specific group of nodes can be matched to the needs of the mission, then bought together for it.  This allows for precise responses to a number of threats while conserving general forces for defensive/deterrence purposes.  Furthermore, the tailor-made group can enjoy the benefits of a virtual back up system of having the network linked to them.

Discordian example:  the originally small scouting force that went into MW to look around and find possible Pagan recruits.  Its small membership was fairly representative of the major views at the time, and when trouble did arise, it was able to gain backup via posters located at EB&G.


Criminal-warfare orientation.

Hierarchies are far more likely to follow the implicit and explicit rules of conflict.  Drilled into them by a culture of conformity that is partially enforced by the structure itself, rules are generally not broken.  However, in networks an entrepreneurial and experimental mindset dominates, so rules are discarded in favour of effectiveness and novelty.  The operational benefits of breaking cultural norms and the law should be well known.  Also, because networks do not have to rely on legal sanction, their reaction times are often well ahead of law-abiding forces.

Discordian examples:  not many, surprisingly.  Either Discordians have mastered KYFMS a little too well, or are law-abiding up until the point the enemy fails to be.  Either way, I can think of several breaches of internet etiquette that fall under this description.  For example, the trolling of TCC when Daniel was banned.  Though light and done with the knowledge of EB&G members, it was neither condoned nor stopped by them, which shocked several TCC regulars.  However, they could hardly blame all of EB&G for the attacks of a few.  Equally, the response to Roger's banning was mass attacks by HIMEOBS, even though many members had never even been to TCC before and the nature of the attacks were (at the time) purely defensive.


Collective vision.

Network structures benefit from what can be called “leaderless c2 cognition” which is very similar to the term “leaderless resistance”.  A collective vision either occurs by consensus or by initial design that defines the raison d'etre of the group.  While cells/nodes fight towards this vision independently, they will keep in contact with each other so that they can update those who share their vision the realtime operational space in which they are functioning.

Discordian example: operation mindfuck, only if we didn't utilize KYFMS so often and actually all told each other what we did all the time.


Adaptive behaviour

As a by-product of this general awareness, cells/nodes can then decide where best to concentrate their efforts in pursuit of their overall goal.  When combined with processing ability, networks can 'get inside' the decision-making loop of hierarchical groups and out think them.  At more abstract levels, networks can adapt to meet a changing strategic environment, often by making alliance and working with others.

Discordian example:  alliance with dissident pagans.  Change in emphasis of Operation Mindfuck to keep in line with the BIP metaphor, as well as utilizing more up to date psychological models and techniques.


Emergence

The synthesis of network collective vision and adaptive behaviour capabilities may result in network emergence (the rise of spontaneous intelligence).  This concept is reminiscent of hiveminds that are described in science-fiction literature and may prove a tougher adversary than could be imagined.

Discordian example: unknown.


Endnotes from Cain.

Our first priority should and is the recruitment and creation of cells.  We can divide cells into two types, social (internet based) and geographical (location based).  Working IRL and online, we may be able to combine the two with tools like Myspace and Facebook. 

PD.com should currently be viewed as a central hub in the making.  Eventually, it will likely emerge as a C2 centre (command and control cell that oversees and helps maintain the cohesion of over cells, as well as a place to deal with the press and make proclamations) but this will require the creation of cells elsewhere.  These cells should be told straight-up what we intend and told about the above netwar concepts in as much detail as possible.  PD.com members can then help create information channels between the new cell and other groups.  A CELL IS ONLY A CELL WHEN IT IS AWARE AND WORKING WITH THE NETWORK.  Right now, than means we have nil cells, though we have several areas that are likely to become one soon.

Once enough cells are established, it will be PD.com's job to connect them all to each other as much as possible.  From there on in, we can take stock of the situation.  Some cells may decide to create propaganda to go on recruiting, while others may start planning operations.  PD.com will likely remain an intellectual/media centre, providing justification for the network's actions as well as acting as a focal point for those wanting to find out more.

There is probably more I haven't thought of, but after 10 pages my arms are bloody tired.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 03, 2008, 08:09:36 pm
Oh, thats right.  If you agree, we bring the discussion to EB&G and POEE and try to engage the natives there.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: LMNO on January 03, 2008, 08:14:11 pm
Yowza.


il;wr*


















(is long; will read.)
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: ybom on January 03, 2008, 08:52:20 pm
Cain, can I have a ons with you? All of that stuff is very sexy and's turning me on a bit.

I'm going to assimilate all of that later and pray the powers that be don't turn me off for doing so, not that I'm paranoid or anything, just a little angsty and hoping they do.

And for what it's worth, I agree to take it to the natives. *bad visual*
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cramulus on January 03, 2008, 08:56:28 pm
Okay. I just spent the last 30 minutes reading all of that. Before I re-read for clarity, I'll venture a synopsis of your suggested "next stage"-- please correct / clarify if I'm missing / misreading anything.

We will "organize" into different cells. These cells will exist in various places on the net as well as IRL. For example at the moment I'm a node in a cell of five or so Discordians in the Yonkers, New York area AND a node in the PD Cell. (and AWS too!)

After these cells are created (I imagine many of them already exist), they must be networked. This is a decentralized network, rather than a hierarchy. This is done by having members join more than one cell at once, and not having any one leader in particular.

The purpose of this structure is to
-maximize each cell's access to resources - the PD cell can't put up flyers, but the Yonkers cabal can. The Yonkers cabal has limited ability to troll websites (because it only has two internet trolls), but the PD cabal can. Because I'm a member of both cells, I can farm work from one group to the other
-defend each cell from strikes - with no "top level", we can't be decapitated.

Recruiting:

We need to form a larger "fourth ring" - Discordians who are hip to the cause but may not have dedicated themselves to it yet. They are our recruiting field for the New Wave ring.

The best way to do this, if I read you correctly, is to create cells which have various appeals to various types of Discordians. We can flagship a silly discordian myspace group, for example, and make sure that we litter it with information about the other cells and the Big Picture.





Vex and I were talking recently about The Machine and how we might utilize its structure for our own machinations. (excuse the pun) His notion was that once you've created a self-propelling structure, it takes very little effort to maintain it. Sort of like how people continue to create The Machine not because they're actively trying to, but because participating in the Machine further reifies its existence.

Vex's PDF (which he posted on the other page) was pointing at a similar idea, though he described a centralized / hierarchical network. (correct me if I'm wrong Vex) He suggested that we create an OMF engine: People pick roles / jobs within this cabal, and if they stop doing it their job, the person above them replaces them or the people below them elect someone else. (now that DOES sound like The MachineTM, no?)



I'm gonna venture a guess, Cain, that your plan involves infiltrating / usurping other Discordian cells. This is not trolling, but rather giving our nodes higher importance within their networks, and thus bending them to our nefarious and no doubt evil will.



am I more or less on target?
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: ybom on January 03, 2008, 09:02:02 pm
Let's not forget to use one of the biggest benefits of being discordian when creating all of this; Randomness! I'd hate to burn bridges because we went in underestimating things such as this.

Is there an easy way to clean up the messes we make?
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on January 03, 2008, 09:14:32 pm
Quote
Discordian example:  we have the emails of thousands of people who were interested enough in Discordianism to sign up to PD.com.  Perhaps we should utilize them?  Since few Discordians have “died” or “got lost” in our previous conflicts, this is not an issue we have had to explore much.  However, it does tie into recruitment, which I will touch on again at the end of this article.

I think this may be a resource worth exploiting. Many people may create an account and nose around a bit, but few will persist and become active members. Lurkers, however, may be more likely to become a legitimate Fourth Ring (or even New Wave Ring) if the network pokes back when they create an account. Even if we continue to treat them like the n00bs they are, interest will undoubtedly be sparked if we put the idea into their heads that "Yeah, this is an active group that is interested in your involvement."

Quote
Information security

Further improvements could include an agreed on code system, which would allow for public forums to act as message carriers without direct implication, as well as use of emails and specially created hidden forums to achieve goals.

It's probably repost, but for the benefit of those interested: http://www.und.nodak.edu/org/crypto/crypto/lanaki.crypt.class/lessons/

Let's not forget to use one of the biggest benefits of being discordian when creating all of this; Randomness! I'd hate to burn bridges because we went in underestimating things such as this.

Is there an easy way to clean up the messes we make?

Good point, actually. Half the point of Discordianism is that we don't get our panties in a twist when unforeseen variables screw around with plans.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: ybom on January 03, 2008, 09:18:28 pm
Good point, actually. Half the point of Discordianism is that we don't get our panties in a twist when unforeseen variables screw around with plans.

You mean like "Ohw Mhy Gawd! Britttannnieee Cut Her Hayr!!!"? Is there an article or something you can provide that touches this subject? (and personally I think she had to cut her hair due to lice lawls)
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on January 04, 2008, 02:26:41 am
Okay. I just spent the last 30 minutes reading all of that. Before I re-read for clarity, I'll venture a synopsis of your suggested "next stage"-- please correct / clarify if I'm missing / misreading anything.

We will "organize" into different cells. These cells will exist in various places on the net as well as IRL. For example at the moment I'm a node in a cell of five or so Discordians in the Yonkers, New York area AND a node in the PD Cell. (and AWS too!)

After these cells are created (I imagine many of them already exist), they must be networked. This is a decentralized network, rather than a hierarchy. This is done by having members join more than one cell at once, and not having any one leader in particular.

The purpose of this structure is to
-maximize each cell's access to resources - the PD cell can't put up flyers, but the Yonkers cabal can. The Yonkers cabal has limited ability to troll websites (because it only has two internet trolls), but the PD cabal can. Because I'm a member of both cells, I can farm work from one group to the other
-defend each cell from strikes - with no "top level", we can't be decapitated.

Recruiting:

We need to form a larger "fourth ring" - Discordians who are hip to the cause but may not have dedicated themselves to it yet. They are our recruiting field for the New Wave ring.

The best way to do this, if I read you correctly, is to create cells which have various appeals to various types of Discordians. We can flagship a silly discordian myspace group, for example, and make sure that we litter it with information about the other cells and the Big Picture.





Vex and I were talking recently about The Machine and how we might utilize its structure for our own machinations. (excuse the pun) His notion was that once you've created a self-propelling structure, it takes very little effort to maintain it. Sort of like how people continue to create The Machine not because they're actively trying to, but because participating in the Machine further reifies its existence.

Vex's PDF (which he posted on the other page) was pointing at a similar idea, though he described a centralized / hierarchical network. (correct me if I'm wrong Vex) He suggested that we create an OMF engine: People pick roles / jobs within this cabal, and if they stop doing it their job, the person above them replaces them or the people below them elect someone else. (now that DOES sound like The MachineTM, no?)



I'm gonna venture a guess, Cain, that your plan involves infiltrating / usurping other Discordian cells. This is not trolling, but rather giving our nodes higher importance within their networks, and thus bending them to our nefarious and no doubt evil will.



am I more or less on target?

It is more centralized than what Cain is describing. Admittedly, I have not done the amount of research Cain has done, but the model I'm working on calls for a skeleton crew of administration officers, mainly to give the organization a direction.

The idea is that cabals will have total autonomy to select targets and carry out their own missions, but go through an administrative body (composed of representatives from other cabals and 3 organization-wide officers) when they want an organization-wide strike. This reduces the clamor of everyone demanding the organization be used as their own personal army all the time and allows for there to be a deliberate direction for the organization to move in.

Elections aren't necessarily the best way to select the officers, it's just I hadn't thought up a better way in my brainstorming. Anyway, I think a network of cabals capable of individual and concerted movement would in some ways give us the benefits of both the Netwar model and the traditional hierarchical systems, without resorting to outright beaurocracy.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 04, 2008, 04:21:49 am
Okay. I just spent the last 30 minutes reading all of that. Before I re-read for clarity, I'll venture a synopsis of your suggested "next stage"-- please correct / clarify if I'm missing / misreading anything.

We will "organize" into different cells. These cells will exist in various places on the net as well as IRL. For example at the moment I'm a node in a cell of five or so Discordians in the Yonkers, New York area AND a node in the PD Cell. (and AWS too!)

After these cells are created (I imagine many of them already exist), they must be networked. This is a decentralized network, rather than a hierarchy. This is done by having members join more than one cell at once, and not having any one leader in particular.

The purpose of this structure is to
-maximize each cell's access to resources - the PD cell can't put up flyers, but the Yonkers cabal can. The Yonkers cabal has limited ability to troll websites (because it only has two internet trolls), but the PD cabal can. Because I'm a member of both cells, I can farm work from one group to the other
-defend each cell from strikes - with no "top level", we can't be decapitated.

Recruiting:

We need to form a larger "fourth ring" - Discordians who are hip to the cause but may not have dedicated themselves to it yet. They are our recruiting field for the New Wave ring.

The best way to do this, if I read you correctly, is to create cells which have various appeals to various types of Discordians. We can flagship a silly discordian myspace group, for example, and make sure that we litter it with information about the other cells and the Big Picture.





Vex and I were talking recently about The Machine and how we might utilize its structure for our own machinations. (excuse the pun) His notion was that once you've created a self-propelling structure, it takes very little effort to maintain it. Sort of like how people continue to create The Machine not because they're actively trying to, but because participating in the Machine further reifies its existence.

Vex's PDF (which he posted on the other page) was pointing at a similar idea, though he described a centralized / hierarchical network. (correct me if I'm wrong Vex) He suggested that we create an OMF engine: People pick roles / jobs within this cabal, and if they stop doing it their job, the person above them replaces them or the people below them elect someone else. (now that DOES sound like The MachineTM, no?)



I'm gonna venture a guess, Cain, that your plan involves infiltrating / usurping other Discordian cells. This is not trolling, but rather giving our nodes higher importance within their networks, and thus bending them to our nefarious and no doubt evil will.



am I more or less on target?

It is more centralized than what Cain is describing. Admittedly, I have not done the amount of research Cain has done, but the model I'm working on calls for a skeleton crew of administration officers, mainly to give the organization a direction.

The idea is that cabals will have total autonomy to select targets and carry out their own missions, but go through an administrative body (composed of representatives from other cabals and 3 organization-wide officers) when they want an organization-wide strike. This reduces the clamor of everyone demanding the organization be used as their own personal army all the time and allows for there to be a deliberate direction for the organization to move in.

Elections aren't necessarily the best way to select the officers, it's just I hadn't thought up a better way in my brainstorming. Anyway, I think a network of cabals capable of individual and concerted movement would in some ways give us the benefits of both the Netwar model and the traditional hierarchical systems, without resorting to outright beaurocracy.

This may be a good place for some 'automation' built in to reduce human dependence but propagate OM's etc from smaller cabals in outer rings to the larger resources in the inner rings. One concern we might have with complete decentralization could be a waste of resources... if the Great Googlie Mooglie Cabal (a second ring?) calls for an attack that is dealing with some personal grudge rather than any sort of useful target in the usual sense, could this distort resources that might otherwise be engaged in something more useful? How does Bin Laden keep his boys from spending $1,000,000 on a target that has a value of $100?

Also, it seems like we'll need more propaganda that gets specific about ideology or goals (which seems to be the binding force of a network).... philosophical propaganda. Maybe something that goes beyond our current level of "Wake up, you're in prison" to "Let's use fog horns on all these sleeping schmucks"? Also, perhaps now is a good time to start looking for memes that might guide the actions of independent cabals?
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on January 04, 2008, 05:46:59 am
Another problem with complete decentralization is that without a really strong, almost religiously stagnant culture, a completely decentralized network will never agree on enough to accomplish anything beyond random strikes at usually unrelated targets. Especially among a group as fractious as Discordians, if you want to have long-term goals or purposely direct the maturation of the network, you have to provide the thing with a brain and some level of self-awareness.

A common culture will tend to make things run a little smoother from a bureaucratic standpoint, but can lead to castrating the group's effectiveness as a Discordian network Establishing a common culture is good for recruitment and providing nodes with common ground, but too much of it will turn into dogmatism because people are intellectually lazy if you let them be.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 04, 2008, 01:35:13 pm
Thats why flatness is preferable, but total flateness is what we are not aiming for.

While I agree PD.com should act as a basic nervous system for the network as a whole, due to experience, interconnectedness, prominence etc the larger amounts of autonomy given to the various cells the better.

I think PD.com should create cells that appeal to various sorts of Discordians, or else approach pre-existing sites with the above model and try to get them to buy into it (marketing will be needed, in that case).  There is also the off-chance of integrating Discordian-esque types as well (the Colboards, dissident Pagans, the members of FSM who don't make me want to stab my own eye out, some Subgenii etc).  Our nodes will essentially act as primary information channels between these cells and our central hub at PD.com.  The hope would be, however, to cultivate nodes there and help make those cells connect directly with other cells as well.  Of course, such a process would take several months, assuming we parallel-process on this.

Its a matter of doing the right recruiting from the start, I think.  So long as the cells are made up of the right sort of people, who understand what we are trying to achieve, then less direction from a central authority or council will be needed.  I envision PD.com's role rather similar to that of C2 Cognition model:  we promote, we try to enhance linkages between cells, we produce ideas and propaganda and we mediate disputes and we act as a major conduit for information flow - but we're not holding a majority of this information flow, at least not once we have a working cell structure up and running.

Also, personal army requests should be considered, unless they become the majority of operations, in which case some ground rules concerning them may have to be established.  Personal armies are a great way of getting a name out and generating interest.  Sure, its self-serving interest, but it appeals to a crowd our normal rhetoric may not - and once they are involved we may be able to draw them in deeper.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 04, 2008, 03:52:41 pm
Thats why flatness is preferable, but total flateness is what we are not aiming for.

While I agree PD.com should act as a basic nervous system for the network as a whole, due to experience, interconnectedness, prominence etc the larger amounts of autonomy given to the various cells the better.

I think PD.com should create cells that appeal to various sorts of Discordians, or else approach pre-existing sites with the above model and try to get them to buy into it (marketing will be needed, in that case).  There is also the off-chance of integrating Discordian-esque types as well (the Colboards, dissident Pagans, the members of FSM who don't make me want to stab my own eye out, some Subgenii etc).  Our nodes will essentially act as primary information channels between these cells and our central hub at PD.com.  The hope would be, however, to cultivate nodes there and help make those cells connect directly with other cells as well.  Of course, such a process would take several months, assuming we parallel-process on this.

Its a matter of doing the right recruiting from the start, I think.  So long as the cells are made up of the right sort of people, who understand what we are trying to achieve, then less direction from a central authority or council will be needed.  I envision PD.com's role rather similar to that of C2 Cognition model:  we promote, we try to enhance linkages between cells, we produce ideas and propaganda and we mediate disputes and we act as a major conduit for information flow - but we're not holding a majority of this information flow, at least not once we have a working cell structure up and running.

Also, personal army requests should be considered, unless they become the majority of operations, in which case some ground rules concerning them may have to be established.  Personal armies are a great way of getting a name out and generating interest.  Sure, its self-serving interest, but it appeals to a crowd our normal rhetoric may not - and once they are involved we may be able to draw them in deeper.

So then manifestos and memes peppered liberally as part of the initial recruitment plan should help with finding cell founders that will share similar goals. I guess we should start making notes of sites/gathering places that would make good "fourth ring" material... Maybe we could talk to Prince MuChao over at 23AE, I could play 4th circle over at Maybe Logic and poke at potential members there... there are several Live Journal groups I can connect to, Sjaantze has several MySpace Discordian friends (and as far as I know, they have no connection between her and here).

That means that we have the following:

St Syn's gang over at POEE - 2nd circle?
EB&G - 2nd circle
23AE - 4th circle
LJ - 4th circle
MySpace - 4th Circle
Facebook - 4th circle
IRL Cabals - 3rd or 4th circle

?
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on January 04, 2008, 04:19:41 pm
My ego is insisting that we create a new base of operations somewhere other than PD, though.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 04, 2008, 04:34:36 pm
My ego is insisting that we create a new base of operations somewhere other than PD, though.

Not necessarily a bad idea... PD.com is large and full of neon, perhaps a center hub for such activity might want to be lower key?

Many of us have various domains/hosting already.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cramulus on January 04, 2008, 04:44:47 pm
So uhhhhh once we've all mastered these theories of warfare

and got all of these networks in place

and our legion is trained to engage in war (?) against another network



.....what exactly are we doing again?




have we agreed on any goals or tasks? I don't mean to be a fly in the ointment, but I'm starting to get kind of jaded talking about how we're gonna assemble a huge Discordian network. (Again, we 'revolutionaries' apparently have short attention spans. )
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: LMNO on January 04, 2008, 04:49:38 pm
I believe "fucking up the elections/political process" was being kicked around.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on January 04, 2008, 04:51:12 pm
So uhhhhh once we've all mastered these theories of warfare

and got all of these networks in place

and our legion is trained to engage in war (?) against another network



.....what exactly are we doing again?




have we agreed on any goals or tasks? I don't mean to be a fly in the ointment, but I'm starting to get kind of jaded talking about how we're gonna assemble a huge Discordian network. (Again, we 'revolutionaries' apparently have short attention spans. )
I thought we would organize online operations similar to what HIMEOBS might do, if it existed, except selecting targets in a deliberate manner so as to produce a larger, specified goal.

In addition to that, we would recognize that every person in this network has a physical body (hopefully) and use that fact to gain IRL recruits as well as plan/carry out IRL missions that coincide with online operations.

Ultimately it would be cool to use the network to pool real resources: money, goods, services, etc.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cramulus on January 04, 2008, 04:54:31 pm
Oh yeah... elections... here are some possible foci

-raise public awareness of the problems with the two party system
-make up fake issues and create buzz surrounding them in hopes that candidates will address them seriously
-the Discordian society supports Grover Cleveland


you'll have to excuse me I'm sick as a dog today and brain is not braining properly
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 04, 2008, 04:56:23 pm
So uhhhhh once we've all mastered these theories of warfare

and got all of these networks in place

and our legion is trained to engage in war (?) against another network



.....what exactly are we doing again?




have we agreed on any goals or tasks? I don't mean to be a fly in the ointment, but I'm starting to get kind of jaded talking about how we're gonna assemble a huge Discordian network. (Again, we 'revolutionaries' apparently have short attention spans. )


ROFL TROOF Prof!

Well, here's my thought. Our first goal should be successfully putting a group of Discordians together in some semblance of apparent order, for the sake of a big game of disorder. That alone would be enough to make us Mystical Discordian Heroes and we could spend the rest of our lives traveling around the lecture circuit and writing books on "How I got Discordians to all act together for five minutes".

Our second goal should be training the group, Cain has already started with essays of netwar. What I envision is a series of posts/discussions etc and a few planned raids on unsuspecting forums/networks. I think this will let us see the potency of what we're working with, and if successful (like many of our past forays) it may well keep the Discordians interested for more than 5 minutes.

Let's say this process should take no more than the next month. During that time we should build solid projects for the graduates ;-) . Both virtual and IRL., Virtual attacks to keep them excited and interested and a bit of immediate gratification (as well as a bit of chaos where needed)... IRL stuff to further recruit in meatspace as well as see how well we can pull off something IRL.

We have to build the Machine and test the Machine before we'll know how useful it actually is. We don't have a strong dogma to hold us together, we don't have a coherent view of The Enemy, these things may limit our ability to pull something like this off...

Of course, we could, through judicious use of propaganda, promote the lack of dogma and a coherent enemy as a very Discordian agenda, maybe we could play it as a strength rather than a weakness... I'll have to think more about that.

Anyway, that's what I see as goals. Build the Machine, Test the Machine, Use the Machine.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Darth Cupcake on January 04, 2008, 05:02:41 pm
I agree with Vex's idea that there should be an alternate base camp.

Also, perhaps a slightly more user-friendly way of reading some of the ideas in here. I think I'm going to copy and paste a lot of Cain's stuff into a text file that I can print and read hard-copy tonight because, honestly, I have a hard time processing a lot of this stuff as I read it, particularly because I do my reading on this board in the office, which doesn't give me the opportunity to focus and reflect the way I should.

Cram's idea of multiple cells with overlapping members, with each cell having a strength, is a really good one.

I've had a lot of cool ideas lately for things I can do IRL that are subtle and simple, but I think a solid start. I'm a fairly introverted, live-and-let-live sort of person, so I'm moving forward in baby steps, especially now that I'm pretty much solitary. (Cram used to be a really solid motivator--it's hard to not get involved in his crazy shenanigans, and that's GREAT, but I don't have that kind of energy on my own without some sort of catalyst. On occasion I run into a book/song/event/whatever that provides catalyst for me, I don't have any one thing I can count on to work 98% of the time. Cram gets results :wink: ) On that note, I really like that you guys have been tossing around the idea of newb training, as it were. I think myself, and most likely numerous others, stand to gain a lot from that, and even seasoned veterans might find new ideas.

Getting this mildly machine-like would, I think, be good--the concept that an object in motion stays in motion, as mentioned. So if we have a mild degree of interlocking cogs going on, it'll keep momentum going, because there is a notorious problems amongst the folk here (myself included) of starting projects and never finishing. If we have interlocking pieces, as long as one is going, it'll keep the others going, even if it's agonizingly slow. Eventually, energy will be built back up again. The trick is just to keep it going.

Okay. I don't think I'm adding a lot. I'm trying, but again, in the office, and with deadlines to meet, so I shouldn't be on here in the first place. I will attempt to have something more useful to say in the future. This is a really good thread.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on January 04, 2008, 05:09:37 pm
recruitment - infiltrate grassroots movements of campaigns destined for failure (read: ron paul, dennis kucinich) and begin actively recruiting after their candidate loses or gives up.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 04, 2008, 05:18:25 pm
Ok, after a bit more thought... I decided to just go with the flow:


Operation: Apple Harvest

Goal: Find and recruit as many Discordians and Discordianesque individuals as possible for a new ELF-like network.

Primary - Develop a coherent message to recruit with. Include propaganda, memes, rants, conversion sermons, aim for multiple groups.... propaganda for Pinealists may be different than Propaganda for NeoDiscordians ;-).

Secondary - Prepare training material for Cyberwarfare and IRL Art Sabotage/Poetic Terrorism/Operation Mindfuck. Include actual attacks in the training.

Tertiary - Blitz all known internet Discordian hangouts  as well as any IRL locations for potential recruits (via flyers etc).


Ok, there's our first Operation and goals. Our next Operations probably need to be plans for actual attacks during the recruitment phase.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Triple Zero on January 04, 2008, 05:23:27 pm
poetic terror can be fun, but didn't "art sabotage" mean the actual destruction of proper artworks (as some sort of nihilistic/fatalistic statement), i assume you're not advocating that, right?
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 04, 2008, 07:07:13 pm
poetic terror can be fun, but didn't "art sabotage" mean the actual destruction of proper artworks (as some sort of nihilistic/fatalistic statement), i assume you're not advocating that, right?


Quote
Art Sabotage
ART SABOTAGE STRIVES TO be perfectly exemplary but at the same time retain an element of opacity--not propaganda but aesthetic shock--apallingly direct yet also subtly angled-- action-as-metaphor.

Art Sabotage is the dark side of Poetic Terrorism--creation- through-destruction--but it cannot serve any Party, nor any nihilism, nor even art itself. Just as the banishment of illusion enhances awareness, so the demolition of aesthetic blight sweetens the air of the world of discourse, of the Other. Art Sabotage serves only consciousness, attentiveness, awakeness.

A-S goes beyond paranoia, beyond deconstruction--the ultimate criticism--physical attack on offensive art-- aesthetic jihad. The slightest taint of petty ego-icity or even of personal taste spoils its purity & vitiates its force. A-S can never seek power--only release it.

Individual artworks (even the worst) are largely irrelevant- -A-S seeks to damage institutions which use art to diminish consciousness & profit by delusion. This or that poet or painter cannot be condemned for lack of vision--but malign Ideas can be assaulted through the artifacts they generate. MUZAK is designed to hypnotize & control--its machinery can be smashed.

Public book burnings--why should rednecks & Customs officials monopolize this weapon? Novels about children possessed by demons; the New York Times bestseller list; feminist tracts against pornography; schoolbooks (especially Social Studies, Civics, Health); piles of New York Post , Village Voice & other supermarket papers; choice gleanings of Xtian publishers; a few Harlequin Romances--a festive atmosphere, wine-bottles & joints passed around on a clear autumn afternoon.

To throw money away at the Stock Exchange was pretty decent Poetic Terrorism--but to destroy the money would have been good Art Sabotage. To seize TV transmission & broadcast a few pirated minutes of incendiary Chaote art would constitute a feat of PT--but simply to blow up the transmission tower would be perfectly adequate Art Sabotage. If certain galleries & museums deserve an occasional brick through their windows--not destruction, but a jolt to complacency--then what about BANKS? Galleries turn beauty into a commodity but banks transmute Imagination into feces and debt. Wouldn't the world gain a degree of beauty with each bank that could be made to tremble...or fall? But how? Art Sabotage should probably stay away from politics (it's so boring)--but not from banks.

Don't picket--vandalize. Don't protest--deface. When ugliness, poor design & stupid waste are forced upon you, turn Luddite, throw your shoe in the works, retaliate. Smash the symbols of the Empire in the name of nothing but the heart's longing for grace.



I think the idea is useful, though our angle of attack may be less simplistic... particularly in virtual land.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 04, 2008, 07:10:02 pm
Rough Draft - Pineal Propaganda Document 1


The Sacred Chao can be considered as made up of three visual elements. The first, an eternal symbol of balance, the yin and yang, the black and white, the male and female, the polarity of everything. Inside the black half of this ancient symbol is the 'Golden Apple'. The Golden Apple that started the Trojan War, The Golden Apple of Eris.  The third element, nested in the white half of the Chao appears as a Five-Sided Pentagon, the symbol of order, war (in some countries)... as well as all good Bureaucracies everywhere.

"But what does it mean?" asked the student seeking enlightenment.

The Sacred Chao exists as a symbol of the universal balance between Chaos and Order. These are known to Discordians as "The Hodge", the symbol of the Chaos which touches every part of existence (even the parts that your Mommy said not to touch unless you were taking a bath). On the other side there is “The Podge”, a symbol of Order, Bureaucracy, and Dogma.

The Sacred Chao is never in a perfect balance, or a static position. Indeed, it wobbles as each side struggles to remain in balance with the other. The secret to the power of the Chao is exactly that, understanding that an increase in one, will initiate an increase in the other. Every time the Government increases taxes and decreases freedoms, there is a proportional increase in rebellion, tax evasion and chaos. When there is an increase in civil disobedience or rebellion, there is a proportional increase in the Police and Authority force, more freedoms are curtailed and the Sacred Chao wobbles from side to side.

Today, balance has been lost by many. Internet forums have become dead zones where like minded people have stopped ‘thinking’ and started ‘repeating’. Political hacks that claim the fnord title ‘Pundit’ (though one never hears them pun), support this schmuck filled echo chamber, as their barely coherent rants become the talk of the day across the blogosphere and through thread after thread of forum posts. These fetid pools of stagnancy are imbalanced, the Curse of Greyface has overtaken them and that which stagnates too long, dies. Won’t you help Save the Cabbages?

Join us for a series of educational seminars on the art of Erisian activism in the 21st Century. Come for the information, stay for the action.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: LMNO on January 04, 2008, 07:33:40 pm
Completely un-thought thought:

"Hey!  You read Illuminatus!  Remember Hagbard Celine and the LDS?  Well, it exists, and you can be part of it!"
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 04, 2008, 07:45:05 pm
Argh, my connection is next to useless currently.  Don't know why, but getting on in the last two days is very hard (I logged on about 10 minutes ago, it took me at least 10 minutes to get my connection to work).

I wanted to add when I mentioned code, Cainad put a link to cryptography, but I actually meant code (word/meaning substitution, not letter substitution.  The latter is crackable with time, the former is easier to learn and, unless the people putting it together are stupid, is uncrackable at all).

Also, LMNO seems to be along the lines I had considered.

I'll deal with longer posts tomorrow, because I'm not sure my connection will even last to the end of this post.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 04, 2008, 08:54:15 pm
Completely un-thought thought:

"Hey!  You read Illuminatus!  Remember Hagbard Celine and the LDS?  Well, it exists, and you can be part of it!"

So maybe dusting off some old memes:

Erisian Liberation Front, Legion of Dynamic Discord,  Gold& Appel... what else?
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: LMNO on January 04, 2008, 09:01:32 pm
Actually, why not?  A mythological structure exists, why not use it?


Finally, RAW becomes useful again.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 04, 2008, 09:08:30 pm
Actually, why not?  A mythological structure exists, why not use it?


Finally, RAW becomes useful again.

He's always been useful... people just use him incorrectly most of the time ;-)

This fits with what Cainad stated in the recruitment post I think... While there are all sorts of new memes (BiP etc) being created, there is a huge field of ripe memes long sown and ready for harvest. They're already out there pointing in some direction, why not have them pointing in our direction?

Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 04, 2008, 10:02:42 pm
Perhaps point Huckabee and Ron Paul at each other would be good for LULZ.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on January 05, 2008, 02:30:23 am
I wanted to add when I mentioned code, Cainad put a link to cryptography, but I actually meant code (word/meaning substitution, not letter substitution.  The latter is crackable with time, the former is easier to learn and, unless the people putting it together are stupid, is uncrackable at all).

Since this is the only thing that I think I can contribute to at my current level of skill (that being the level of "N00b who talks a lot"), should I start making a code system that we might use for in-the-field communication?
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Faust on January 05, 2008, 04:10:56 am
Completely un-thought thought:

"Hey!  You read Illuminatus!  Remember Hagbard Celine and the LDS?  Well, it exists, and you can be part of it!"

So maybe dusting off some old memes:

Erisian Liberation Front, Legion of Dynamic Discord,  Gold& Appel... what else?
Fake page for gold & apple hosted here Y/N?
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on January 05, 2008, 06:35:11 am
Organizational adaptation: the Limited-Time-Only network.

It exists for the period of a Mission and then completely disbands.

The only thing that remains in place is a loose affiliation with other people you've been with on other missions, and a mysterious voice from the heavens telling you what to do next and who to call for help.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 05, 2008, 07:17:05 am
I have a lot of unused domains, and I'm only using a fraction of my server space, if anyone wants to do anything creative with websites.

Among the unused ones I have:

Airmeat.com
Freakplex.com
Fruitbase.com
Gaymofo.com
Infernogenesis.com
Paleprunygirls.com
Squirrelmayhem.com
Whorecow.com

I was thinking about registering Bacondisco.com but I haven't yet.

Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on January 05, 2008, 07:24:57 am
my list is

discoflux.com
theoppositionparty.com
cwyohba.org (lail)
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 05, 2008, 04:31:30 pm
My ego is insisting that we create a new base of operations somewhere other than PD, though.

I'm not so sure thats a good idea, unless we can convince the majority of people here to sign up there, and make sure new people who are here sign up there as well.  The more input we can get on such an endeavour, the better, and the easier the access to it, the more likely people are going to want to pitch in.

On the operational side, however, some covert transfer of information will be necessary.  Emails could play a role here (actually thinking about the code I mentioned before, it would be easy to pre-arrange a time, place and variety of signals via email, to indicate a variety of information, if operations may be subject to change due to situations on the ground.  That saves us from having a predetermined code which may be broken).
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 05, 2008, 04:36:34 pm
(Again, we 'revolutionaries' apparently have short attention spans. )

Not me.  I've managed to plan for months just to pull a couple of (admittely pretty cool) hijinks off.

I believe the idea is we create the structure first, then we consider our options with the resources we have assembled.  Pranking the election cycle would be a good start (trying to instigate fights between local supporters of mutually hostile campaigners and embarking on disinformation seems like a solid goal), however other cells may also have the ideas, but lack only resources and expertise, which we will provide.

Oh, I forgot to add, when talking about structure, the more centrally controlled it is, the more spectacular and long plan operations tend to be in their results.  Less centralized leads to less spectacular operations, but at a far higher tempo.  Its probably worth having an emergency planning committee or whatever for the times you want a more centralized approach, but to use it sparingly and mostly keep a relatively high tempo of medium level operations running.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 05, 2008, 04:42:39 pm
Well, here's my thought. Our first goal should be successfully putting a group of Discordians together in some semblance of apparent order, for the sake of a big game of disorder. That alone would be enough to make us Mystical Discordian Heroes and we could spend the rest of our lives traveling around the lecture circuit and writing books on "How I got Discordians to all act together for five minutes".

Our second goal should be training the group, Cain has already started with essays of netwar. What I envision is a series of posts/discussions etc and a few planned raids on unsuspecting forums/networks. I think this will let us see the potency of what we're working with, and if successful (like many of our past forays) it may well keep the Discordians interested for more than 5 minutes.

Let's say this process should take no more than the next month. During that time we should build solid projects for the graduates ;-) . Both virtual and IRL., Virtual attacks to keep them excited and interested and a bit of immediate gratification (as well as a bit of chaos where needed)... IRL stuff to further recruit in meatspace as well as see how well we can pull off something IRL.

We have to build the Machine and test the Machine before we'll know how useful it actually is. We don't have a strong dogma to hold us together, we don't have a coherent view of The Enemy, these things may limit our ability to pull something like this off...

Of course, we could, through judicious use of propaganda, promote the lack of dogma and a coherent enemy as a very Discordian agenda, maybe we could play it as a strength rather than a weakness... I'll have to think more about that.

Anyway, that's what I see as goals. Build the Machine, Test the Machine, Use the Machine.

I say 6 weeks for initial recruits, but otherwise agree.  We infiltrate, identify those probably most open to the message, then organize them in the last 3 weeks or so.  That way, we can keep a high tempo and not have people bored waiting for us to get our act together.

Then will come training, which will probably only take a week, to be honest, since I'll just upload my Rogue Discordian Collection of books and teach them the realities of online and offline operations.  Mostly they'll learn while doing it, so its not worth fretting over that section too much.

As for a coherent view of the enemy, I wouldn't worry too much about that.  Rather like the teacher appearing when the student is ready, an enemy will become apparent when we are ready.  There are an abundance of choices for an enemy, too.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 05, 2008, 04:49:24 pm
Also, perhaps a slightly more user-friendly way of reading some of the ideas in here. I think I'm going to copy and paste a lot of Cain's stuff into a text file that I can print and read hard-copy tonight because, honestly, I have a hard time processing a lot of this stuff as I read it, particularly because I do my reading on this board in the office, which doesn't give me the opportunity to focus and reflect the way I should.

OK, I'll try, although the subtelties of the ideas are what really sells it.

Basically, most ordinary organizations are designed like pyramids.  Orders come down from the top, are filtered by a middle level, then farmed out to the lowest level grunts.  They then either succeed (unlikely) or it turns out their information was wrong, their expectations too high etc and they inform the top level by relaying this information up the chain of command.  The apex then think about this information, make a new policy, and send the orders down the chain.  Decision taking makes forever, and the structure is vulnerable to attack from flexible attackers, or those who target the top of the organization successfully.

Instead, I propose a network, where there is very little real command or autonomy, where information is shared freely.  Organized into cells which are in a mutual relationship working towards common goals, we can react faster, take advantage of changing situations faster, have better defensive bonuses, additional tactical advantages and more in common with Discordian philosophy.  Creation of such a network will be harder, but it will work faster, with ever increasing returns, multiple inputs and with near autonomy, all based on current and accurate information.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 05, 2008, 04:50:46 pm
recruitment - infiltrate grassroots movements of campaigns destined for failure (read: ron paul, dennis kucinich) and begin actively recruiting after their candidate loses or gives up.

Agreed, and an excellent suggestion.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 05, 2008, 04:52:34 pm
Completely un-thought thought:

"Hey!  You read Illuminatus!  Remember Hagbard Celine and the LDS?  Well, it exists, and you can be part of it!"

So maybe dusting off some old memes:

Erisian Liberation Front, Legion of Dynamic Discord,  Gold& Appel... what else?

Again agreed.  I'm not going anywhere tonight, I'll cull some tracts from Illuminatus and, as LMNO says, plunder the mythology.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Triple Zero on January 05, 2008, 04:53:35 pm
about the central control, i wonder if your target audience (discordians) aren't generally a lot less likely to follow orders from a central command?

but if i understand your new post, about the decentralized stuff, it sounds like i just need to find a few buddies and do whatever the hell seems a good idea?

i admit i still have to read most of the longer posts in this thread.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 05, 2008, 04:55:11 pm
I wanted to add when I mentioned code, Cainad put a link to cryptography, but I actually meant code (word/meaning substitution, not letter substitution.  The latter is crackable with time, the former is easier to learn and, unless the people putting it together are stupid, is uncrackable at all).

Since this is the only thing that I think I can contribute to at my current level of skill (that being the level of "N00b who talks a lot"), should I start making a code system that we might use for in-the-field communication?

If you want, though note my other comment on it above (one of the posts where I quoted Vexation)
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 05, 2008, 04:57:15 pm
Organizational adaptation: the Limited-Time-Only network.

It exists for the period of a Mission and then completely disbands.

The only thing that remains in place is a loose affiliation with other people you've been with on other missions, and a mysterious voice from the heavens telling you what to do next and who to call for help.

Might be useful later on, once people feel committed, but in the early days I think some semblance of structure as well as knowledge of who you are dealing with.  For a covert operation, however, it would be perfect, and is covered somewhere in my Netwar notes.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 05, 2008, 04:58:52 pm
I suggest the extra domains and websites become depositories of flyers, essays, notes, plans, media related material and redundant channels of information.  I'm still not convinced of the need for a place apart from PD.com to plan, and the above would up our netwar capabilities.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cramulus on January 05, 2008, 07:23:30 pm
Step 1: Create a huge discordian network
Step 2: ????????
Step 3: Profit!


TBH, if I were an outsider to this plan, I would be hesitant to get involved until I knew what the hell we were talking about. But I guess the Idea (at this stage) isn't so much to DO anything, but to organize ourselves "properly"...

I have an idea about putting a system in place so that if my cabal (for example) needs some help in hijinks we can contact other cabals for assistance. I mean, that's what we're going for, right? A way so that we can get as many Discordians as possible to "work together"? Right now if I wanted help in spreading propaganda or whatever I'd have to contact you guys, 23ae, EB&G, myspace spags, etc etc etc. Maybe a code word like "Golden Apple Seed Mission". (note: name tentative)

So THIS is how it works...




FIRST, we contact every Discordian sect we can find and tell them that we've started using a new code-word for Discordian projects which need assistance. We let them know that there are Discordian-oriented tasks they can help out with, called Golden Apple Seed Missions.

We'll note that a complete list of all active Golden Apple Seed Missions will be kept over at pd.com forums. Or Discoflux. Or wherever we put HQ.1 So if YOU need Discordian help, go post a thread in the Golden Apple Seed section. People will reply with advice, status reports, etc...

but if they want, they can also host the Golden Apple Seed Missions on their own websites or whatever. In that case, just post a link here to where the info is. So if a regular from 23ae needs help prank calling some senator, he'll post a topic at 23ae, then link us to it. Any Discordian who has time on their hands can check it out and participate, even if they're not regular 23ae readers.

We could even make the missions a blog or rss feed or something to make it easy to keep track of.



To me, this seems like the essence of The Game. To maximize our available resources so we can all further our goals.




I think the first Golden Apple Seed Mission is to inform other Discordians about Golden Apple Seed Missions.







1 I think the real central HQ will be here no matter where we put it, because we're probably more activist than a lot of Discordian sects. But I think we should host it elsewhere because our particular brand of Discordianism rubs a lot of Discordians the wrong way. I mean, we're never going to get major cooperation from the Discordian community if we expose them to this (rather hostile) climate.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on January 05, 2008, 07:47:44 pm
Also we should consider the politics of hosting a major HQ here accessible to everyone, a la the MW invasion of EB&G. Even if there is common ground for these missions, any influx of new people is going to spread outside the project zone, and I'd hate for PD to become a battleground (again (again)).
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 05, 2008, 07:51:00 pm
Hopefully, PD.com's time in the sun will be short, if we get the mix between control and decentralization right.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 05, 2008, 08:25:01 pm
Aside from my total lack of technical ability, I would be happy to absorb the cost of registering/hosting whatever. That's one of two things I'm good at; the other is pimping.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Iron Sulfide on January 06, 2008, 10:06:32 am
http://23ae.com/index.asp?post=26

discordian code, a la 23ae.

i think it's palatable.
Quote
    * Element 2 - Apple: Begin every message with a code-like word such as ALPHA or BRAVO or DISCO.

    * Element 2 - Bongs: Follow this code with a string of numbers such as "3247237203902397023947234", "967034975934875439875", or "46".

    * Element 2 - Chaos: Throughout the text, insert exclamations such as "REFER TO CDL", "FNORD!", "USE CRAG NEXT PARAGRAPH", and "JOE".

    * Element 2 - Drano: Say straight out in the letter that it is in code, such as "USE CYPHER 5" or "WARNING: THIS IS IN CODE".

    * Element 2 - Eriss: Prominently feature a literary equivalent to the Turkey Curse on every page as a warning to non-authorized readers.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 07, 2008, 03:03:40 pm
Answer me this, if you can:  Why does Chaos always beat order?

Because it is better organized, of course.


I present to you an offer, ladies and gentlemen.  Chaos and mayhem are the aim.  Fun will almost certainly result.  Help is required, however.  A mutually beneficial arrangement, if you will.  A network of like-minded individuals working towards the above goals.  If this has piqued your interest, you know how to get in contact with me.  All will be made clear soon.

Until we speak again, adieu.

www.principiadiscordia.com/forum
email: sacredflameoftajikistan[AT]gmail.com (insert your own alternate email here, I can't deal with all recruits)
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: LMNO on January 07, 2008, 03:05:58 pm
Short, sweet, to the point.


I hear, and shall obey.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 07, 2008, 03:43:50 pm
Before we post for recruits, though we should have something here for n00bs to see... Maybe a special forum on the main page for "ELF" or whatever plundered mythos will be useful? If they just show up to a bunch of hack Discordians yapping, they may slink away again, or get distracted with the everyday of PD.com...
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: DarkStar on January 08, 2008, 01:46:31 am
Please tell me that you are not going to give these pussies nothing.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on January 08, 2008, 05:23:52 am
Before we post for recruits, though we should have something here for n00bs to see... Maybe a special forum on the main page for "ELF" or whatever plundered mythos will be useful? If they just show up to a bunch of hack Discordians yapping, they may slink away again, or get distracted with the everyday of PD.com...

The everyday of PD.com isn't so bad...

Something for n00bs to see is a good idea though: not a prepackaged "read this shit first" (because loads of them will skip it), but someplace where the transition from "LOL23FNORD" to "You Are In Prison" is easily perceived. If we make something that seems like a legitimate ELF, that should draw attention and create an illusion of authority that can later be shattered for educational purposes.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Triple Zero on January 08, 2008, 01:34:00 pm
we had a pineal23fnord subforum for a while.

i think we deleted it because only regulars where spamming it with lol23 and longcats.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on January 08, 2008, 02:30:04 pm
we had a pineal23fnord subforum for a while.

i think we deleted it because only regulars where spamming it with lol23 and longcats.

Which is why I'd hope to see 23PINEALFNORD types involved in something from the time they get here... otherwise, I think they might get chased off. A Fnordian that's not occupied with one sort of game will occupy themselves with another sort, I don't mind either sort... but some people do ;-)
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 08, 2008, 02:31:52 pm
Before we post for recruits, though we should have something here for n00bs to see... Maybe a special forum on the main page for "ELF" or whatever plundered mythos will be useful? If they just show up to a bunch of hack Discordians yapping, they may slink away again, or get distracted with the everyday of PD.com...

Yes, we should.

However, today is not a good day for thinking.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on January 10, 2008, 04:32:42 am
Hopefully I'll be acquiring this soon

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Networks-Netwars-Militancy-Consumer-One-Off/dp/0833030302/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199939100&sr=8-3

Its along the lines of what I have described here, but far more in depth and with case studies.  Amazon are out of stock, but they'll be ordering new ones soon.

With any luck, it may help refine/inform organizational challenges.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: barumunk on March 07, 2008, 09:00:23 am
am i right in my assumption that all these awesome posts resulted in the GASM command etc and of the adoption of the gasm projects. which is great, but what are the other networks? if the GASms are just one node?

AWS? etc etc? which are most active?
also with regards the propaganda that was mentions by <cant remember who> that focus on  recruiting the "4th ring"

are there any new developments  :)

cus i wont lie, reading through this whole thread again (in one sitting, as apposed to in bits every now and then) really got me revved up!  :D
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Valerie - Gone on September 06, 2008, 07:56:16 am
Probably kicking a dead horse with this, but...

What happened with this? Obviously, GASM took off, but what about the networking and such? It seems like it just kind of fell away, though I could be wrong as this is the only thread I've read on this. Did you all just give up on it or did it actually go somewhere?
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cain on September 06, 2008, 12:24:24 pm
We networked a few times, but we need to do it more.

GASMs are the method.  If one takes off, people should spread it to every Discordian-esque website they know (I have promoted posterGASM on xkcd's forums for example, since they have a "making the world a wierder place" thread) and use that as the "in" for future cooperation.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Cramulus on September 08, 2008, 02:54:58 am
Some efforts to network / organize:

Project Infiltration Thread (http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=15892.msg504382#msg504382)
Task List at the BIP Wiki (http://www.blackironprison.com/index.php?title=Task_List) - Out of date (?)
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Chairman Risus on September 08, 2008, 03:02:07 am
Cram: ImprovEverywhere links out to similar sites.  Association with a large organization like that would probably give a decent boost in view count.
Title: Re: ATTN: FSM SCUMBAGS
Post by: Valerie - Gone on September 08, 2008, 04:40:04 am
Cram: ImprovEverywhere links out to similar sites.  Association with a large organization like that would probably give a decent boost in view count.
ImprovEverywhere is fucking amazing. I'd love to be able to see them in action. I recall Cainad saying that he wanted to join up with them, since he's now actually within a reasonable distance to do so.

Anyway, I agree with Risus.