Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Aneristic Illusions => Topic started by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 02:01:59 pm

Title: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 02:01:59 pm
Someone help me out here: why does it seem like so many people who call themselves "discordians" (on one sense or another) have anti-libertarian, Progressive views lately?

I'm not trolling around for a quick argument, I just feel really alone lately. I don't fit in with Conservatives for societal reasons and I don't fit with Progressives/Liberals/whatever because of my staunch individualist ideals.

It seems like "Libertarian" has become a dirty word lately. I'm not trying to sound alarmist with my tin-foil haberdashery but the current wave of extreme Progressivism feels oppressive and a little bit fascist to me. I start to wonder if perhaps the Alex Jones set has it all figured out after all...and then I watch some clip of them whispering maniacally about Bilderberg into some supaSecret hidden camera (fnord) and I'm suddenly left with the realization that I may be doomed to live a life curled up and crying in the fetal position in the bottom of my shower for the dreadful loneliness.

Isn't there a fun-loving, fly-by-the-seat-of-our-pance, free-hugs-gay-marriage-and-legal-weed-for-all group of "Conservatives" out there who actually feel an iota of love/acceptance for the people they're screaming about Liberty/Bill of Rights/Less Government beside?

How about the other way? Aren't there any "party people" out there who DON'T feel it necessary to push their "sacrifice individual liberty to achieve common goals for the greater good" ideology on me? Cause as far as I'm concerned; compelling me by force to do shit "for the greater good" is just as bad as making me do shit "because that's what jeebus said."

Am I the only one who sees the current president as a happy-faced, kindhearted supaMan in a glowing, psychedelic BIP?


You can do anything you want, as long as you do the Right Thing.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v511/Navkat/DoAsISayAndIWillBeYourSlave.jpg)

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 01, 2009, 02:06:56 pm
Well, if it is any consolation, I'm not too enamored with the Conservatives, the Liberals, OR, the Libertarians.  Also, your picture is busted. 
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 02:09:19 pm
Well, if it is any consolation, I'm not too enamored with the Conservatives, the Liberals, OR, the Libertarians.  Also, your picture is busted.
  

Weird. I see it fine. Must be cached. brb. Fixed.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Jenne on July 01, 2009, 02:09:36 pm
*paging Ratatosk*

Actually, I think it's just the Libertarians who don't know their asses from their elbows that people are "unfriendly" with.  And really, that can be stretched to fit anyone who's politically minded.

Also, being Discordian is not antithetical to any sort of political persuasion, though the "Think for yourself, Schmuck" plays heavily into whatever might be brainwashed into you. 
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 02:22:47 pm
You may not have noticed, but we haven't been praising Obama all that much.

Each party has their own specific kind of fuck up.  We tend to mock them all.





But I think we should get specific here: What kind of "Extreme Progressive" opression are you referring to?  Because as far as I can see, Obama's actually being fairly moderate, even slightly right-leaning.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2009, 02:23:15 pm
Libertarianism is Marxism of the right.

Mainly because 99.9% of Libertarians are apologists for corporate interests, who already have too much influence, and dismantling checks on their powers isn't going to weaken them, contra what Reason magazine may argue, and the rest simply want an excuse to sit around and smoke pot without getting busted for it (and that is fine, but lets not pretend this is a sophisticated and nuanced standpoint).

They're also bad philosophers.  Its funny, because when you read many supposedly "libertarian" thinkers, like Hayek, for example, you actually find they don't advocate anything as far reaching or as patently nonsensical as Libertarians do.  Hayek was very much in favour of things like taxation to provide non-market goods minimum income and regulations for environmental protection. Adam Smith supported progressive taxation.  Milton Friedman came up with the notion of negative income taxes.  Etc etc

Basically, its a fairy story suited to people who want to believe the State is evil, but the people who bankroll the State are good.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 02:24:10 pm
Well, right. I use the term "libertarian" not as a party affiliation, but rather, as a general adjective.

to break it down: I feel sort of separate from the most lovely, awesome, beautiful people in my life because it seems they've all adopted this militant attitude that dictates that social awareness/responsibility must be imposed on everyone. They love me and I love them dearly, but they think I'm a bit of a paranoid kook and can't understand why I would want to preserve a bunch of "obsolete" liberties that they see as selfish and a little dangerous.

At the same time; I'm not finding a fit in the "Less government/Conservative legislation" people because they:
1. Subscribe to this belief that ANY government is a conspiracy to make us all into New World Order, Matrix-esque slaves.
2. Are just as Progressive as the Liberals...only they're doing it for JEBUS instead of global warming and Universal Healthcare.
3. Are humorless sticks in the mud who can't see the value in good-natured marauding for fun's sake.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Jenne on July 01, 2009, 02:27:05 pm
Sounds to me like you're trying to fit a label onto yourself that doesn't quite fit--as you find when people with that label don't have the same beliefs as you do.

I'd just drop the label altogether or find one that's less confining if you must do so.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 02:31:13 pm
No offense navkat, but your generalizations are so sweeping and your examples are so specific to yourself, all I can comment on is that you seem to be hanging out with incredibly stupid people.


First, what "social awarness" are you referring to, in regards to Obama's policies?

Second, what "obsolete liberties" are the Obama administration removing?*

Third, it might be a good idea to scale back on the rhetoric and talk about what politicians are doing rather that what ideologues are saying they're doing.












*Above and beyond the standards set by previous administrations, of course.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 02:33:33 pm
Libertarianism is Marxism of the right.

Mainly because 99.9% of Libertarians are apologists for corporate interests, who already have too much influence, and dismantling checks on their powers isn't going to weaken them, contra what Reason magazine may argue, and the rest simply want an excuse to sit around and smoke pot without getting busted for it (and that is fine, but lets not pretend this is a sophisticated and nuanced standpoint).

They're also bad philosophers.  Its funny, because when you read many supposedly "libertarian" thinkers, like Hayek, for example, you actually find they don't advocate anything as far reaching or as patently nonsensical as Libertarians do.  Hayek was very much in favour of things like taxation to provide non-market goods minimum income and regulations for environmental protection. Adam Smith supported progressive taxation.  Milton Friedman came up with the notion of negative income taxes.  Etc etc

Basically, its a fairy story suited to people who want to believe the State is evil, but the people who bankroll the State are good.

I get that too sometimes.

I personally agree with the whole Thomas Paine "government is a necessary evil" thing, but I also recognize the fact that the whole point of this democratic republic thing we have here was that no entity should have absolute power over the many...and unreigned corporatism not only allows that--it encourages it.

I'm personally of the belief that the whole thing went in the ditch as soon as we stopped defining "Incorporated" as an entity licensed and governed by The People to be disbanded at will and started defining corporations AS natural persons.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 01, 2009, 02:35:10 pm
Sounds to me like you're trying to fit a label onto yourself that doesn't quite fit--as you find when people with that label don't have the same beliefs as you do.

I'd just drop the label altogether or find one that's less confining if you must do so.

This is the correct motorcycle.  

Why, navkat, do you even need a political label or ideology?

I personally prefer to be somewhat nomadic Politically.  I don't mean nomadic in the sense of wandering from one camp to the next, but in terms of just no really settling in to any particular mainstreamed ideology.  I agree with Conservatives sometimes, Liberals sometimes, Libertarians once in awhile, and Greens, well, okay I never agree with the Greens, but in the end I'm perfectly happy just being a political party of one.  I just wish I could get someone to fund me.   :D
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Jenne on July 01, 2009, 02:37:25 pm
Same here, RWHN--but I have to say that as I age, I agree more with the IDEALS of the liberal set, but not necessarily their weak-minded, power-grabbing actions.

All politicians are pigs, some just are labeled with a blue tag, some with a red tag.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 02:42:15 pm
Libertarianism, as Cain pointed out, is not the same beast that it was even 30 years ago. The party is no longer philosophical, as much as rhetoric based these days. Libertarianism, ala Jefferson, Hayek etc isn't the sort of thing that the party tries to do today. Philosophically, I think we humans are better off with as little government influence as possible. I think most conservatives and progressives agree with that statement. They all simply disagree with how much "as little" actually is. No progressive I've met wants the government in all their business and personal life. No Conservative I've met wants the government completely out. And Libertarians are split between wankers that somehow have become apologists for corporations and proponents of idiotic ideas like "Let's make all the roads private", and the other libertarians, that like the idea of limited government (Cain likes to call them pot smokers, but I think there are some few of us that arre a bit more nuanced.... then again I may be stoned).

In the US right now, it seems to me that a Discordian could be in any of the political parties. Just because you're Dem/GOP/Lib doesn't mean you must agree with their whole platform. Currently, I think there are some sane people across all the parties and the media focuses only on the nutjobs that sell papers... and Internet debators rely only on the extremes and stereotypes to argue their position. Generally speaking, that's why I am not a member of any of these fucked up political parties, I try to TFY,S! at the Ballot box ;-) I agree with Mr. Jefferson that likened government to fire. A necessary and dangerous thing, which if it gets too big, becomes uncontrollable. Many Libertarian/Conservatives seem to forget the 'necessary' bit and many progressives seem to forget the 'uncontrollable' bit.

Of course, overall this is a joke since none of the political parties here in the US have a consistent philosophy applied to their platform anyway. Every political platform in the US has a trapdoor and a rope with a funny knot, methinks.

Though, I have noticed the same thing navkat... It does seem that many Discordians have a very progressive/liberal bent and tend to poke at the more libertarian approach. I think that has less to do with them being Discordian, and more to do with them being progressives/liberals, the poor sods.


Quote
I'm personally of the belief that the whole thing went in the ditch as soon as we stopped defining "Incorporated" as an entity licensed and governed by The People to be disbanded at will and started defining corporations AS natural persons.

100% TROOF
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 01, 2009, 02:44:14 pm
Same here, RWHN--but I have to say that as I age, I agree more with the IDEALS of the liberal set, but not necessarily their weak-minded, power-grabbing actions.

All politicians are pigs, some just are labeled with a blue tag, some with a red tag.

I'm there too.  I would totally love to see the liberals, ACTUALLY, ram some meaningful reforms on energy policy.  We talk a big game, in America, about being innovative geniuses, but no one is issuing any kind of meaningful challenge to the motivators to make big changes in how we gather and use energy.  We probably could put a bunch of people to work developing wind, solar, geo-thermal, and all that stuff, but it's all campaing slogans and smoke and mirrors.  They really need to STFU and actually put the shit through Congress and make it reality.  But, they won't.  I have complete faith that this 60-seat "Supermajority" is going to amount to a big pile of diddly squat.  [/soapbox]
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Jenne on July 01, 2009, 02:50:04 pm
Same here, RWHN--but I have to say that as I age, I agree more with the IDEALS of the liberal set, but not necessarily their weak-minded, power-grabbing actions.

All politicians are pigs, some just are labeled with a blue tag, some with a red tag.

I'm there too.  I would totally love to see the liberals, ACTUALLY, ram some meaningful reforms on energy policy.  We talk a big game, in America, about being innovative geniuses, but no one is issuing any kind of meaningful challenge to the motivators to make big changes in how we gather and use energy.  We probably could put a bunch of people to work developing wind, solar, geo-thermal, and all that stuff, but it's all campaing slogans and smoke and mirrors.  They really need to STFU and actually put the shit through Congress and make it reality.  But, they won't.  I have complete faith that this 60-seat "Supermajority" is going to amount to a big pile of diddly squat.  [/soapbox]

HEAR HEAR!  Yes, we activists have a bitter pill to swallow when it comes to the philosophy behind the machine vs. what the machine actually produces.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2009, 02:50:16 pm
What if a free society needed to draft its citizens in order to remain free?
What if it needed to limit oil imports to protect the economic freedom of its citizens from unfriendly foreigners?
What if it needed to force its citizens to become sufficiently educated to sustain a free society?
What if it needed to deprive landowners of the freedom to refuse to sell their property as a precondition for giving everyone freedom of movement on highways?
What if it needed to deprive citizens of the freedom to import cheap foreign labor in order to keep out poor foreigners who would vote for economically unsound, massively socialistic wealth redistribution?

Libertarianism fails to solve any of these convincingly.

Also, Russia vs Japan. 

In Russia, there was virtually no regulation, and a small gang of kleptocrats came to power.  Japan, on the other hand, is highly regulated and maintains one of the highest living standards in the world, with a stable and (mostly) fair and democratic government.  The pattern repeats itself throughout history.  Strong states able to intervene and provide stability through the provision of non-market goods have been economically healthier, and those which have been weak have succumbed to oligarchy and a massive reduction in standards of living, economic and otherwise. 

For another example, Libertarians are really into the whole private currency thing.  However, they ignore that in the past, private currencies have been tried, and they have led to a situation of mass fraud and currency debasement, and then concentration of power in the hands of a few banks once people get sick of living in that sort of mess and sort the majority of them out.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 02:55:10 pm
I'm still trying to figure out what sort of "oppressively progressive" things are being forced upon me; and what "liberties" are paying the price.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 02:55:41 pm
Sounds to me like you're trying to fit a label onto yourself that doesn't quite fit--as you find when people with that label don't have the same beliefs as you do.

I'd just drop the label altogether or find one that's less confining if you must do so.

This is the correct motorcycle.  

Why, navkat, do you even need a political label or ideology?

I personally prefer to be somewhat nomadic Politically.  I don't mean nomadic in the sense of wandering from one camp to the next, but in terms of just no really settling in to any particular mainstreamed ideology.  I agree with Conservatives sometimes, Liberals sometimes, Libertarians once in awhile, and Greens, well, okay I never agree with the Greens, but in the end I'm perfectly happy just being a political party of one.  I just wish I could get someone to fund me.   :D

Because these things matter to me. A lot.

The fact is: I really do have a problem with the Progressive movement that seems to have a lot of influence in this current government lately. There are a lot of changes that I want to see made...that I want to HELP make. I care.

I think the current Cap & Trade thing is dreadful, to start.
I'm angry about the stimulus nonsense and the handling of the budget, stim and TARP bailouts thus far by BOTH admins.
I want to rewind (abolish) the former administration's outright abolition of the Fourth Amendment and the entire body of the USA Patriot act.
I want term limits on all public offices.
I believe when Government starts taking legislative interest on aspects of our daily lives (prohibition, energy use, tobacco use, personal health initiatives, judeo-christian morality, etc) that IS totalitarianism and it needs to be checked.

I want these things.
I care about making these things happen.
I want to surround myself with people who also want to take part in making these things happen--but for the right reasons and with the right 'tude. I believe there's strength in numbers and in community with like-minded people. I'm tired of standing in the ranks of those who scream about the Tyrrany of Government, only to be pummeled to death with a whole new set of ideological nonsense they'd make law if THEIR guy was in charge right now.

And I'm lonely. That's it. There's no more pure explanation than that that I can give you. I just feel all alone in this. I want people to talk to about it.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Jenne on July 01, 2009, 03:00:10 pm

Of course, overall this is a joke since none of the political parties here in the US have a consistent philosophy applied to their platform anyway. Every political platform in the US has a trapdoor and a rope with a funny knot, methinks.


I think that's all parties, worldwide, to be quite honest.  I think in the US, we do try to hold the parties to some philosophical grounding, but in the end, it's all about what you can do for yourself while you wield that  much power over so many people.  So the "hilarity" that is politics ensues.  But I think the US has a lot of honesty in its parties, or attempted honesty at least, that might not be there in other parts of the world.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 03:05:53 pm
I think the current Cap & Trade thing is dreadful, to start.
The cap part, or the trade part?

Quote
I'm angry about the stimulus nonsense and the handling of the budget, stim and TARP bailouts thus far by BOTH admins.
Are you upset that the government tried to keep the economy from crashing, or the way they went about it?

Quote
I want term limits on all public offices.
If the voters must re-elect the public officers, why set term limits?

Quote
ve when Government starts taking legislative interest on aspects of our daily lives (prohibition, energy use, tobacco use, personal health initiatives, judeo-christian morality, etc) that IS totalitarianism and it needs to be checked.
Considering the stress that tobacco and alcohol put on our healthcare system and ultimately society at large, why do you consider these personal choices?

Quote
And I'm lonely. That's it. There's no more pure explanation than that that I can give you. I just feel all alone in this. I want people to talk to about it.

Well, you've come to the right place.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Jenne on July 01, 2009, 03:13:57 pm


I want these things.
I care about making these things happen.
I want to surround myself with people who also want to take part in making these things happen--but for the right reasons and with the right 'tude. I believe there's strength in numbers and in community with like-minded people. I'm tired of standing in the ranks of those who scream about the Tyrrany of Government, only to be pummeled to death with a whole new set of ideological nonsense they'd make law if THEIR guy was in charge right now.

And I'm lonely. That's it. There's no more pure explanation than that that I can give you. I just feel all alone in this. I want people to talk to about it.

What you are wanting is not unreasonable nor is it ever uhheard of...I think you made the right decision to bring it up--it's the first step, and quite a good thread is coming out of it.  As for finding people IRL that share your same views...might I suggest some sort of grassroots efforts near you that are mired in altruistic ideals?  I'm not sure with such a diverse set of beliefs you will find your exact match...but then I believe that's the case for most thinking individuals.

I'm sort of curious which yahoos you've found in your searches for likeminded people...
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 01, 2009, 03:14:36 pm
I honestly don't think there is enough progressive influence in the government.  Just ask the 200+ gay servicemen who have been discharged since Obama took office.  And then yesterday he tells a gathering of them that he's working to get them equality.  Bullshit!  He's sitting on his thumbs.  
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Jenne on July 01, 2009, 03:22:11 pm
Also, a word on term limits--CA voted in these gnarly term limits about 10 years ago.  The fall-out:  you get a buncha wanking politicos who don't really give a shit about what they are working on for long enough to get anything done.  The learning curve is so steep and their time is so short, that if they DO take up a cause of yours, beware!  Chances are they will not get the R&D and then leg done on time to pass anything close to what's needed.  If there's a deadlock on the Congressional floor, you're screwed.

The upshot:  you get a perpetual freshman congress that doesn't end up doing anything but look towards their NEXT election.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Jenne on July 01, 2009, 03:23:20 pm
I honestly don't think there is enough progressive influence in the government.  Just ask the 200+ gay servicemen who have been discharged since Obama took office.  And then yesterday he tells a gathering of them that he's working to get them equality.  Bullshit!  He's sitting on his thumbs. 

Shooting himself in the ass, The Smiler is!
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 03:26:36 pm
I think the current Cap & Trade thing is dreadful, to start.
The cap part, or the trade part?

The whole damned thing. I'm not sure I believe the science is there to back up the Climate Change argument, but I'm willing to accept the typically-left belief that we should give a shit about it "just in case" anyway.

What I have a problem with is enacting a totalitarian piece of legislation that monitors and rations use and basically treats it like another commodity over which the all-powerful, all-seeing Government in its Infinite Wisdom holds a Monopoly in this country. If you don't see a capacity for a whole new realm of abuse there, then I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. And doing this "in the meantime until we work out all the kinks" is a fascist social experiment that I can't abide by.

Additionally; it's not going to fix a goddamned thing; it's just going to put self-imposed expenses and limitations on our GDP, thereby crippling our economy at a time in Global history when we can least afford to be anti-competitive. Let's face it: we're not going to slow down our pace of consumption, we're just going to outsource our economy to foreign countries like China who will be more than happy to pick up the slack that our domestic industry can no longer afford...for a price. And they aren't planning on capping THEIR use anytime soon so it's a problem unsolved...just relocated.

Quote
Quote
I'm angry about the stimulus nonsense and the handling of the budget, stim and TARP bailouts thus far by BOTH admins.
Are you upset that the government tried to keep the economy from crashing, or the way they went about it?

The way they went about it, mostly.
Quote
Quote
I want term limits on all public offices.
If the voters must re-elect the public officers, why set term limits?

Because it takes the whole "Carreer Politician" off the table entirely and puts the focus back on "Public Servant." Our representatives will stop looking at their service as "trying to hold onto my career/position as long as possible by any means necessary and start seeing this as a limited gig with a purpose of accomplishing true goals for the people who voted them in.

Quote
Quote
ve when Government starts taking legislative interest on aspects of our daily lives (prohibition, energy use, tobacco use, personal health initiatives, judeo-christian morality, etc) that IS totalitarianism and it needs to be checked.
Considering the stress that tobacco and alcohol put on our healthcare system and ultimately society at large, why do you consider these personal choices?

Agree to disagree. I'm free to fuck myself up and I'm free to pay the price. I don't think "society at large" has any right or responsibility.



Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 03:29:33 pm
Navkat, I think one aspect that needs to be looked at is the reality of the current political situation.

It's one thing to hold onto an ideology, but if that ideology starts with a complete change of game rules, a grand total of fuck all will get done.

So, you have to look at the current state and manner of government, and start there.  

For example, coal and energy companies are dumping tons of shit into the air, water, and ground.  Global warming arguments aside, there are visible and horrible consequences to that.  So, you might say it would be a good idea for them to cut it out.  But how?  

The conservative position seems to say that cleaner plants would make more money in the long run, and killing the consumer is counter-productive, so eventually the invisible hand will make the companies fall in line.  This isn't happening.

The progressive position seems to say that we should regulate the living fuck out of the companies, forcing them to reduce their emissions or face fines or closure.  This would force many smaller energy companies out of business, causing prices to skyrocket... Not to mention that the lobbyists would never allow it.

So, the solution that sucks the least for everyone seems to be cap-and-trade.  The conservatives are pissed because the companies regulated and it will cost them money if they go over the limit, and the progressives are pissed because it means the more powerful companies will just buy more credits and keep fucking up the environment.  But at least there is a limit, and at least there are economic incentives to cut down emissions.

Government is fucked up in general; but human greed is just as fucked up.  In today's society, it seems like the two are in some sort of death match... But we can't let either one win.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2009, 03:32:20 pm
But letting greed win will lead to a self-regulating, fair and awesome political system, with free blowjobs more freedom.  Why do you hate free blowjobs more freedom, LMNO?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 03:34:36 pm
Quote
I want term limits on all public offices.
Quote
If the voters must re-elect the public officers, why set term limits?

Because it takes the whole "Carreer Politician" off the table entirely and puts the focus back on "Public Servant." Our representatives will stop looking at their service as "trying to hold onto my career/position as long as possible by any means necessary and start seeing this as a limited gig with a purpose of accomplishing true goals for the people who voted them in.

Or, conversely, it sets up a system where inexperienced politicians are mostly ineffectual, and spend their short carreers grabbing as much as they can before they're booted out.  It takes new members of congress at least two terms before they can get anything done.  

And what if the Will of the People actually want the guy sticking around for a long time?  Case in point, Massachussets (and the country) has done pretty well with Ted Kennedy.  Sure, it ain't perfect, and he's fucked some things up, but he's also enormously influential in the Senate.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 03:35:21 pm
But letting greed win will lead to a self-regulating, fair and awesome political system, with free blowjobs more freedom.  Why do you hate free blowjobs more freedom, LMNO?


Because the free blowjobs freedom isn't for me!


LMNO
-greedy.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 01, 2009, 03:45:49 pm
I tend to suspect that maybe latching onto a political party label because you just don't feel comfortable operating/thinking independently without clinging to a cadre of theoretically like-minded politicos may be even more contradictory to Discordianism.

Call me crazy.

Anyway, I'm a Republican by technicality, and I despise Libertarians (with a big L) because they're fucking idiots, for all the reasons detailed by Cain. I hate stupid people, and 99.9% of all Libertarians amaze me with their ability to have a functioning nervous system in the face of their lack of a brain.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 03:45:49 pm

Quote
Quote
ve when Government starts taking legislative interest on aspects of our daily lives (prohibition, energy use, tobacco use, personal health initiatives, judeo-christian morality, etc) that IS totalitarianism and it needs to be checked.
Considering the stress that tobacco and alcohol put on our healthcare system and ultimately society at large, why do you consider these personal choices?

Agree to disagree. I'm free to fuck myself up and I'm free to pay the price. I don't think "society at large" has any right or responsibility.


So, you don't think smoking has a social impact, or you don't think that impacts on society are important?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 03:53:47 pm
I'm gonna try to answer your questions Cain, but with the caveat that these would only work in a Libertarian society. IE were most citizens understood the philosophy of libertarianism.

What if a free society needed to draft its citizens in order to remain free?

The even wouldn't happen. Once it became clear that arms and armies were needed, a self reliant nation of people that accepted personal respobnisbility would be knocking down doors to volunteer. However, I would also argue that such events in a truly libertarian society would probably be rare.

Quote
What if it needed to limit oil imports to protect the economic freedom of its citizens from unfriendly foreigners?

Same as before, if corporations/industry were libertarian in philosophy, instead of corporate pigs pretending to be capitalists while wielding any tool necessary to make a buck. That is, in a libertarian society, companies would be held responsible for their buying and selling, BY THE POPULACE. That is, if a company were told "Hey, you have to find another supplier because of these major international risks!" there would be no issue with that.

Quote
What if it needed to force its citizens to become sufficiently educated to sustain a free society?

Again, force would be unnecessary. Educational training could be supplied at many local locations and attendance could be rewarded. There is no need to force your citizens to do what is best for them, if they understand that they are responsible for the success of themselves and the nation.

Quote
What if it needed to deprive landowners of the freedom to refuse to sell their property as a precondition for giving everyone freedom of movement on highways?

Again, this isn't necessarily a problem. If there is a good reason that the Interstate must be built precisely at location X, or the whole world will plunge into the black abyss ... then I'm sure the land could be appropriated.

Quote
What if it needed to deprive citizens of the freedom to import cheap foreign labor in order to keep out poor foreigners who would vote for economically unsound, massively socialistic wealth redistribution?

Overall, the problem with trying to nail any specific political philosophy boils down to what I kept repeating above. Either most of your citizens agree with and have some understanding of the political philosophy, or the political system will fail miserably. In a society where libertarian ideals were embraced my most of a society, government force over their citizens would be unnecessary... in all of the above examples, if the government treated itself and its citizens as equal negotiators, force wouldn't be an issue.

Let's look again:

Draft - Unnecessary in the US since Vietnam. If the general political philosophy held were Libertarian, everyone would be armed and know how to use their weapons. We would have standing militias and IF a major war began, there wouldn't be a need for the draft, simply a call to arms for the militias. See Also, US National Guard and Iraq (this shit already happens).

Imports from Unfriendly Governments - Interstate commerce is actually one of the areas many Libertarians think the government should be involved in. Further, if companies were run by libertarians, they would feel personally responsible for their decisions... thus working with bullshit regimes would be rare. In cases where such a thing became obvious, consumers with personal responsibility would cease to use their services/products.

Education doesn't need to be forced. Generally speaking humans don't have a problem with learning new things. If a libertarian government told its libertarian citizens that new education was necessary for reasons X Y and Z, they would feel personally responsible to get that education. If the government provided that education on a local level force would be unnecessary.

Imminent Domain - This is actually one of the worst things that happens in America in my opinion. Not simply because of the 'I own this land' stuff... but mostly because I have seen it abused many, many times particularly in small towns around where I grew up. Again and again I've seen people forced out for bad ideas that never materialize in any useful way. In other cases, they get far less than the land was appraised at before or they simply get no say. In my experience, most of the time Imminent Domain hasn't been a MUST, but more of a "It'll be a hell of a lot cheaper if we just cut through this guys property!". In a libertarian society, a libertarian government would enter negotiations with the land owner, if they couldn't come to terms, the road would have to go around. Considering that its his (and all of his friends) tax money, its not unreasonable to think that he might be influenced to be reasonable.

All in all, I think your examples prove out why the Libertarian ideals exist. The government 'forcing' its citizens to do X, seems as much like slavery as the Plantation owner forcing his darkies to do X. If it is not acceptable for one man to force another, it is not acceptable for 100 or 1000 men to force another, even if they label themselves a government first.

If a society cannot survive without its government forcing its citizens to do what is best for themselves, it has no right to exist.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2009, 04:01:11 pm
I'm gonna try to answer your questions Cain, but with the caveat that these would only work in a Libertarian society. IE were most citizens understood the philosophy of libertarianism.

But they don't.

Which pretty much undermines the entire point. 

To take another example, Libertarianism also has a big thing about rationality...which would be useful if people were actually rational.  But they're not.  So it falls apart.  Its an axiomatic philosophy, and its axioms are empirically wrong.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: BabylonHoruv on July 01, 2009, 04:03:40 pm
If you are using the word libertarian as a self description and are not using it in conjunction with the Libertarian party you should probably do a little bit of research into what the word actually means.

I know common usage defines a word, but the original usage of that particular word, and common usage everywhere except the USA, is Anarchist, a libertarian, in the little l, not affiliated with the party sense is every bit as eager to tear down the corporations and the wealthy as he is the government.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 04:05:30 pm
1) Rat, i think the fact that you have to postulate an extremely radical shift in society to even begin to answer Cain's question more or less invalidates Libertarianism from the get-go.  It seems you could also say, "none of that would be a problem if we were all nice to each other."  [edit: Cain just said the same thing.]


2) Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2009, 04:08:32 pm
1) Rat, i think the fact that you have to postulate an extremely radical shift in society to even begin to answer Cain's question more or less invalidates Libertarianism from the get-go.  It seems you could also say, "none of that would be a problem if we were all nice to each other."  [edit: Cain just said the same thing.]

Yup.  Liberatarianism, like vulgar Marxism, works from a premise that is fundamentally incorrect, and basically asserts a view of humanity that doesn't stand up to scrutiny.  Its not that we have the wrong sort of political system, its that we have the wrong sort of people.

And of course, Marxism, when confronted with that fact, then proceeded to use tools like the Cheka to socially engineer Russia into a Happy Perfect Workers Paradise.  I wonder how much it would cost for someone to hire people like Blackwater to do the same job for a libertarian society?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Roaring Biscuit! on July 01, 2009, 04:09:02 pm
1) Rat, i think the fact that you have to postulate an extremely radical shift in society to even begin to answer Cain's question more or less invalidates Libertarianism from the get-go.  It seems you could also say, "none of that would be a problem if we were all nice to each other."  [edit: Cain just said the same thing.]


2) Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.

depends on where you live, here in the UK the NHS actually profits from smoking, because the money made from taxes is greater than the money spent in treating the illnesses caused by smoking (obviously, 'cause thats what profit is...).  Or another way of looking at it, smokers are basically paying for their own treatment.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cramulus on July 01, 2009, 04:10:51 pm
I'm with you Navkat. I have yet to find a platform that doesn't sicken me in some way. If I had to put myself on the spectrum somewhere, I guess I'm in the middle leaning left, but whenever I'm in a group of passionate liberals I start to feel the bile coming up. Same with conservatives, but I live in new york, so it doesn't happen as frequently.

I really like the idea of libertarianism. I like the small government, individualist branding. It's too bad about those children, elderly, homeless, and handicapped people screw it up for the rest of us.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 04:11:44 pm
Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.

depends on where you live, here in the UK the NHS actually profits from smoking, because the money made from taxes is greater than the money spent in treating the illnesses caused by smoking (obviously, 'cause thats what profit is...).  Or another way of looking at it, smokers are basically paying for their own treatment.

:cn:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 04:13:02 pm
Navkat, I think one aspect that needs to be looked at is the reality of the current political situation.

It's one thing to hold onto an ideology, but if that ideology starts with a complete change of game rules, a grand total of fuck all will get done.

So, you have to look at the current state and manner of government, and start there.  

For example, coal and energy companies are dumping tons of shit into the air, water, and ground.  Global warming arguments aside, there are visible and horrible consequences to that.  So, you might say it would be a good idea for them to cut it out.  But how?  

The conservative position seems to say that cleaner plants would make more money in the long run, and killing the consumer is counter-productive, so eventually the invisible hand will make the companies fall in line.  This isn't happening.

The progressive position seems to say that we should regulate the living fuck out of the companies, forcing them to reduce their emissions or face fines or closure.  This would force many smaller energy companies out of business, causing prices to skyrocket... Not to mention that the lobbyists would never allow it.

So, the solution that sucks the least for everyone seems to be cap-and-trade.  The conservatives are pissed because the companies regulated and it will cost them money if they go over the limit, and the progressives are pissed because it means the more powerful companies will just buy more credits and keep fucking up the environment.  But at least there is a limit, and at least there are economic incentives to cut down emissions.

Government is fucked up in general; but human greed is just as fucked up.  In today's society, it seems like the two are in some sort of death match... But we can't let either one win.

The problem is: it's not going to cost the corporations a goddamned thing. WE are the ones who will start seeing $30 "emissions license acquisition" fees on our energy bills and it will be business as usual for the corporate world. And that's best case scenario (I believe). All this does is FURTHER the separation of US society into a two-class system.

And what of the scenario where foreign countries pick up the slack? What'll we do then? Once C&T is in place and government starts relying on the income, it'll be damned-near impossible to abolish so the only choice left over is to add some sort of cap on foreign trade as well, no? Government rationing on everything? Treating all trade practices as physical commodities?

There seems to be a growing trend (not saying that that's where YOU stand) of extreme-left Progressives who seem to be okay with handing over more and more of the responsibility for taking care of their daily needs over to Government, and who are willing to pay more and more of their paychecks for the luxury of not having to worry about these things themselves.

What frightens me (and you can group me with the Alex Jones nuts if you want, but I'm being for serious here) is a future world where we do just that: we cough up 75% of our pay to The Government and we are given our nutritionally-sound foodstamps, medicine, homes (not PROPERTY, but living spaces that will be re-assigned when we die since property-ownership is unfair), energy rations, etc. None of us will be destitute or have need for the basic necessities in life, but none of us will be truly FREE. The other 25% of your income can be used to buy whatever you wish- as long as those things are clothes, art, vacations and other decorations for your BIP.

Where will the spirit of human ingenuity and entrepreneurship be then? Not abolished but certainly suppressed.

Maybe that sounds a little outrageous and extreme, but if we continue to buy into the "everyone must do the Right Thing, even if it's by force and why would anyone NOT want to anyway?" concept, then why the hell not just go there? I mean, that's the sum of that equation, isn't it?

Do I have it wrong?

And Cain: don't want to ignore you because you raise really great points. You're right: I don't have the answers. Where's the dividing line between fairness and oppression? I don't claim to have all the answers. I just want more people who are willing to ask those questions without being so fucking quick cram "because this is the right way" into the blanks. I also tend to take an attitude where "liberty" is the default until a realistic solution can be reached.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2009, 04:13:05 pm
Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.

depends on where you live, here in the UK the NHS actually profits from smoking, because the money made from taxes is greater than the money spent in treating the illnesses caused by smoking (obviously, 'cause thats what profit is...).  Or another way of looking at it, smokers are basically paying for their own treatment.

:cn:

http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?forumID=6564&start=855&edition=1&ttl=20090701161229

However, for other problems, like pollution, the point still stands.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Roaring Biscuit! on July 01, 2009, 04:15:24 pm
Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.

depends on where you live, here in the UK the NHS actually profits from smoking, because the money made from taxes is greater than the money spent in treating the illnesses caused by smoking (obviously, 'cause thats what profit is...).  Or another way of looking at it, smokers are basically paying for their own treatment.

:cn:

yeh im not sure why the fuck i thought that was true either.  I've heard it from people working for the NHS though...
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Roaring Biscuit! on July 01, 2009, 04:17:17 pm
got it

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23705158-details/Smoking+costs+NHS+'+5bn+a+year'/article.do

EDIT:  see the comment at the bottom
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2009, 04:19:36 pm
This Is London is a shitty source, btw.

Just wanted to point out you get exactly what you pay for, with that particular rag.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Roaring Biscuit! on July 01, 2009, 04:20:54 pm
This Is London is a shitty source, btw.

Just wanted to point out you get exactly what you pay for, with that particular rag.

i just googled it :/

also, quickly!  everybody back on topic!
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: BabylonHoruv on July 01, 2009, 04:21:18 pm
Navkat, I think one aspect that needs to be looked at is the reality of the current political situation.

It's one thing to hold onto an ideology, but if that ideology starts with a complete change of game rules, a grand total of fuck all will get done.

So, you have to look at the current state and manner of government, and start there.  

For example, coal and energy companies are dumping tons of shit into the air, water, and ground.  Global warming arguments aside, there are visible and horrible consequences to that.  So, you might say it would be a good idea for them to cut it out.  But how?  

The conservative position seems to say that cleaner plants would make more money in the long run, and killing the consumer is counter-productive, so eventually the invisible hand will make the companies fall in line.  This isn't happening.

The progressive position seems to say that we should regulate the living fuck out of the companies, forcing them to reduce their emissions or face fines or closure.  This would force many smaller energy companies out of business, causing prices to skyrocket... Not to mention that the lobbyists would never allow it.

So, the solution that sucks the least for everyone seems to be cap-and-trade.  The conservatives are pissed because the companies regulated and it will cost them money if they go over the limit, and the progressives are pissed because it means the more powerful companies will just buy more credits and keep fucking up the environment.  But at least there is a limit, and at least there are economic incentives to cut down emissions.

Government is fucked up in general; but human greed is just as fucked up.  In today's society, it seems like the two are in some sort of death match... But we can't let either one win.

The problem is: it's not going to cost the corporations a goddamned thing. WE are the ones who will start seeing $30 "emissions license acquisition" fees on our energy bills and it will be business as usual for the corporate world. And that's best case scenario (I believe). All this does is FURTHER the separation of US society into a two-class system.

And what of the scenario where foreign countries pick up the slack? What'll we do then? Once C&T is in place and government starts relying on the income, it'll be damned-near impossible to abolish so the only choice left over is to add some sort of cap on foreign trade as well, no? Government rationing on everything? Treating all trade practices as physical commodities?

There seems to be a growing trend (not saying that that's where YOU stand) of extreme-left Progressives who seem to be okay with handing over more and more of the responsibility for taking care of their daily needs over to Government, and who are willing to pay more and more of their paychecks for the luxury of not having to worry about these things themselves.

What frightens me (and you can group me with the Alex Jones nuts if you want, but I'm being for serious here) is a future world where we do just that: we cough up 75% of our pay to The Government and we are given our nutritionally-sound foodstamps, medicine, homes (not PROPERTY, but living spaces that will be re-assigned when we die since property-ownership is unfair), energy rations, etc. None of us will be destitute or have need for the basic necessities in life, but none of us will be truly FREE. The other 25% of your income can be used to buy whatever you wish- as long as those things are clothes, art, vacations and other decorations for your BIP.

Where will the spirit of human ingenuity and entrepreneurship be then? Not abolished but certainly suppressed.

Maybe that sounds a little outrageous and extreme, but if we continue to buy into the "everyone must do the Right Thing, even if it's by force and why would anyone NOT want to anyway?" concept, then why the hell not just go there? I mean, that's the sum of that equation, isn't it?

Do I have it wrong?

And Cain: don't want to ignore you because you raise really great points. You're right: I don't have the answers. Where's the dividing line between fairness and oppression? I don't claim to have all the answers. I just want more people who are willing to ask those questions without being so fucking quick cram "because this is the right way" into the blanks. I also tend to take an attitude where "liberty" is the default until a realistic solution can be reached.

Wow,  you're not just an idealist about Libertarianism, your an idealist about Authoritarianism too.

I think this world you have in your head where the government actually provides for everyone's needs is pretty unlikely.  More likely they provide for their own desires, while offering as minimal a welfare structure as they can manage.  providing for their own desires will be justified with progressive rhetoric, not providing for our needs will be justified with libertarian rhetoric.  All of it will be backed up by the TV feeding people patriotic sentiments that have them believing the USA is the greatest most free country in the world.

Of course that's kinda where I see us being right now.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 04:21:35 pm
I'm with you Navkat. I have yet to find a platform that doesn't sicken me in some way. If I had to put myself on the spectrum somewhere, I guess I'm in the middle leaning left, but whenever I'm in a group of passionate liberals I start to feel the bile coming up. Same with conservatives, but I live in new york, so it doesn't happen as frequently.

I really like the idea of libertarianism. I like the small government, individualist branding. It's too bad about those children, elderly, homeless, and handicapped people screw it up for the rest of us.

And that's just it. There's always going to be those who can't or WON'T take responsibility for providing for their own needs now or later in life. What do we do? Let 'em die in the street?

So I agree that there is a need for social responsibility and Government intervention...but where's the line? Where does it stop? You could (admittedly) go the other way on me and say "Where does the hands-off darwinism stop? When people are literally dying on the curb? And who gets the shovel when the worms show up to eat their brains?"
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 04:25:11 pm
Seeing as how we're still in a democratic republic (at least in name), then it seems fairly obvious that those who vote will determine where personal responsibility ends and gvt oversight begins.


Not to get too idealistic, of course.  "If voting changed anything it would be illegal," etc.


Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Jenne on July 01, 2009, 04:29:09 pm
Seeing as how we're still in a democratic republic (at least in name), then it seems fairly obvious that those who vote will determine where personal responsibility ends and gvt oversight begins.


Not to get too idealistic, of course.  "If voting changed anything it would be illegal," etc.




The Norm Colemans of the world would agree with you there, eh?

See, whenever we have these dragged-out elections...I always point to where more or less voters in any direction make a significant fucking difference.

But that's my own idealism/PollyAnnastic views showing, I guess.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 04:29:14 pm

Wow,  you're not just an idealist about Libertarianism, your an idealist about Authoritarianism too.

I think this world you have in your head where the government actually provides for everyone's needs is pretty unlikely.  More likely they provide for their own desires, while offering as minimal a welfare structure as they can manage.  providing for their own desires will be justified with progressive rhetoric, not providing for our needs will be justified with libertarian rhetoric.  All of it will be backed up by the TV feeding people patriotic sentiments that have them believing the USA is the greatest most free country in the world.

Of course that's kinda where I see us being right now.

That's where I see it too, but I'm making the argument for the most shining, idealistic progressive stance. That's Best Case Scenario to me, but really; I don't see it going down that way.

Problem is: I'm starting to worry that the realities of those disadvantages are not enough to dissuade the idealistic left from pursuing those ends.

Utopia is improbable, so shouldn't we opt for individual choice when all else fails? I mean, that's personal truth for me, but it might not be for you. Maybe I'm just oriented differently.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 04:29:55 pm
1) Rat, i think the fact that you have to postulate an extremely radical shift in society to even begin to answer Cain's question more or less invalidates Libertarianism from the get-go.  It seems you could also say, "none of that would be a problem if we were all nice to each other."  [edit: Cain just said the same thing.]


Yes, I agree... except this is true FOR ANY political philosophy. Liberalism will only work if the populace are educated in how the system is supposed to work, and buy into it. Otherwise it will fail. Same for Conservatism.  The reason, IMO, that the US is such a political morass of confusion is because no one is getting educated about political philosophy and instead they're getting a crash course in Talking Points, Popular opinion, FOX News (or MSNBC) and lots of wedge issues that from a philosophical standpoint they shouldn't even be discussing.

ANY political philosophy is probably workable in a given society... if most of the people in that society can agree to us that philosophy as their base. Otherwise, thinking that Progressive or Conservative aren't in the same hole as Libertarianism is just hiding your head in the sand.

However, back to the initial question about Discordians being anti-libertarian... I think it has more to do with the general age of vocal Discordians and the education they received... That is, many non-Discordians in the 18-30 range sound almost identical to many Discordians in the 18-30 range on the topic of Libertarianism.

Personally, I find that none of the political philosophies around get anywhere close to a workable solution, so Rational Anarchism is the current position I consider useful.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Jenne on July 01, 2009, 04:31:10 pm

Wow,  you're not just an idealist about Libertarianism, your an idealist about Authoritarianism too.

I think this world you have in your head where the government actually provides for everyone's needs is pretty unlikely.  More likely they provide for their own desires, while offering as minimal a welfare structure as they can manage.  providing for their own desires will be justified with progressive rhetoric, not providing for our needs will be justified with libertarian rhetoric.  All of it will be backed up by the TV feeding people patriotic sentiments that have them believing the USA is the greatest most free country in the world.

Of course that's kinda where I see us being right now.

That's where I see it too, but I'm making the argument for the most shining, idealistic progressive stance. That's Best Case Scenario to me, but really; I don't see it going down that way.

Problem is: I'm starting to worry that the realities of those disadvantages are not enough to dissuade the idealistic left from pursuing those ends.

Utopia is improbable, so shouldn't we opt for individual choice when all else fails? I mean, that's personal truth for me, but it might not be for you. Maybe I'm just oriented differently.

Depends on who's making the individual choice.  Sometimes the weak and disenfranchised are not afforded the same choices, and so someone else's choice is subjugating theirs and their needs as well.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cramulus on July 01, 2009, 04:32:14 pm
btw, regarding the question in the OP

 - I believe the three most prolific discordians (Thornley, Hill, & Wilson) were libertarians, so the libertarian attitude is sown into the Principia and Illuminatus fabric. But I don't think that it's core enough that anti-libertarianism is anti-discordian. Discordianism is not an inherently political movement.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 04:36:14 pm
btw, regarding the question in the OP

 - I believe the three most prolific discordians (Thornley, Hill, & Wilson) were libertarians, so the libertarian attitude is sown into the Principia and Illuminatus fabric. But I don't think that it's core enough that anti-libertarianism is anti-discordian. Discordianism is not an inherently political movement.

Correct motorcycle.

In fact, Kerry was a raging Maoist, then a raging Randroid then a raging anarchist, then just a raging nutter... I think he was more into exploring whatever new political philosophy popped up in front of him, rather than a strong belief in any one of them.

RAW on the other hand, was almost a progressive libertarian. He seemed to think the government should exist to provide useful assistance if necessary and shut the fuck up in general. "TSOG: The Thing That Ate The Constitution" has some great essays in it, IMO.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Jenne on July 01, 2009, 04:36:36 pm
btw, regarding the question in the OP

 - I believe the three most prolific discordians (Thornley, Hill, & Wilson) were libertarians, so the libertarian attitude is sown into the Principia and Illuminatus fabric. But I don't think that it's core enough that anti-libertarianism is anti-discordian. Discordianism is not an inherently political movement.

Hm, I rather disagree.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 04:37:42 pm
However, I think the RAW style of Libertarian and the current style are fairly different.


If we want to define "Libertarian" as being a position of "leave me the fuck alone, but help the disadvantaged," I think I could get behind that.

Of course, that doesn't answer the questions of roads, schools, mail, military, etc.


It's almost like there's a Godel's theorm of political philosophy.  Any system you choose is unable to solve all the problems inherent in social structure.

[edit: Rat is already answering some of this]
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Jenne on July 01, 2009, 04:38:20 pm
However, I think the RAW style of Libertarian and the current style are fairly different.


If we want to define "Libertarian" as being a position of "leave me the fuck alone, but help the disadvantaged," I think I could get behind that.

Of course, that doesn't answer the questions of roads, schools, mail, military, etc.


It's almost like there's a Godel's theorm of political philosophy.  Any system you choose is unable to solve all the problems inherent in social structure.

THIS I can agree with.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cramulus on July 01, 2009, 04:39:48 pm
btw, regarding the question in the OP

 - I believe the three most prolific discordians (Thornley, Hill, & Wilson) were libertarians, so the libertarian attitude is sown into the Principia and Illuminatus fabric. But I don't think that it's core enough that anti-libertarianism is anti-discordian. Discordianism is not an inherently political movement.

Hm, I rather disagree.

about which part?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 04:39:58 pm
However, I think the RAW style of Libertarian and the current style are fairly different.


If we want to define "Libertarian" as being a position of "leave me the fuck alone, but help the disadvantaged," I think I could get behind that.

Of course, that doesn't answer the questions of roads, schools, mail, military, etc.


It's almost like there's a Godel's theorm of political philosophy.  Any system you choose is unable to solve all the problems inherent in social structure.

[edit: Rat is already answering some of this]

This is well put indeed.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 04:40:31 pm
btw, regarding the question in the OP

 - I believe the three most prolific discordians (Thornley, Hill, & Wilson) were libertarians, so the libertarian attitude is sown into the Principia and Illuminatus fabric. But I don't think that it's core enough that anti-libertarianism is anti-discordian. Discordianism is not an inherently political movement.

Hm, I rather disagree.

about which part?

Yeah, "inherently" being the key word.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2009, 04:41:34 pm
ANY political philosophy is probably workable in a given society... if most of the people in that society can agree to us that philosophy as their base.

Except no-one will.  Especially when its a philosophy which is diametrically opposed to how human's actually behave ie non-rationally.  Libertarianism falls apart once you remove the assumption of rationality and, as I keep on saying, humans are not rational.  In fact, the entire conception of laisse-faire economics falls apart when you realize this, but sssshhh, don't tell the economists.  They'd have to start all over again with their voodoo science, if they accepted this.

Quote
However, back to the initial question about Discordians being anti-libertarian... I think it has more to do with the general age of vocal Discordians and the education they received... That is, many non-Discordians in the 18-30 range sound almost identical to many Discordians in the 18-30 range on the topic of Libertarianism.

They also might have noticed the absolutist, intolerant strains within Libertarian thought.  Ayn Rand cultists would put off anyone with a working brain, and while they're at the deep end of the spectrum, there are plenty of others who are on a similar band of suckitude.

As an aside to Cram, this is true, but Thornley considered himself a libertarian communist (ie one step off from an anarchist, left-libertarian) and RAW disagreed strongly with Rothbardian and Randian Libertarianism, the two major schools of thought.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 04:42:20 pm

Depends on who's making the individual choice.  Sometimes the weak and disenfranchised are not afforded the same choices, and so someone else's choice is subjugating theirs and their needs as well.

Agreed. But LMNO answered this pretty well.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Jenne on July 01, 2009, 04:43:40 pm
btw, regarding the question in the OP

 - I believe the three most prolific discordians (Thornley, Hill, & Wilson) were libertarians, so the libertarian attitude is sown into the Principia and Illuminatus fabric. But I don't think that it's core enough that anti-libertarianism is anti-discordian. Discordianism is not an inherently political movement.

Hm, I rather disagree.

about which part?

I think when you said "political" you meant the specifics of who's in office, etc., correct?  When I say "political," I mean something more along the lines of what LMNO responded to you.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Jenne on July 01, 2009, 04:44:03 pm

Depends on who's making the individual choice.  Sometimes the weak and disenfranchised are not afforded the same choices, and so someone else's choice is subjugating theirs and their needs as well.

Agreed. But LMNO answered this pretty well.

Yes, I have a lagtime, sorry, working while posting...it has its disadvantages.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Jenne on July 01, 2009, 04:44:23 pm

about which part?

Yeah, "inherently" being the key word.

That, too...good point.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 04:45:43 pm
I feel a little less lonely all of the sudden, BTW.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Jenne on July 01, 2009, 04:48:21 pm
I feel a little less lonely all of the sudden, BTW.

Heh, I sorta knew you would.  This place has like-minded and very non-like-minded people in it.  But most are THINKERS.  And that's what you need to feel less lonely, imho.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2009, 04:50:50 pm
Science, incidentally, not only ignores the question of indwelling 'essences' by looking instead at measurable relationships, but science also does not agree that knowledge is obtained through Rothbard's Medieval 'investigation by a reason,' i.e., by inventing definitions and then deducing what your definitions implicitly assumed.
Robert Anton Wilson, Natural Law

... I have developed, over the years, some sense of the difference between real horseshit that you can step in and Ideal Platonic Horseshit that exists, evidently, only in the contemplation of those who worship such abstractions; and I continue to notice that Natural Law bears an uncanny resemblance to ideal Platonic Horseshit.
Robert Anton Wilson, "Natural Law"

Thats Rothbard and Nozick pwned.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 04:53:11 pm
However, I think the RAW style of Libertarian and the current style are fairly different.


If we want to define "Libertarian" as being a position of "leave me the fuck alone, but help the disadvantaged," I think I could get behind that.

Of course, that doesn't answer the questions of roads, schools, mail, military, etc.


It's almost like there's a Godel's theorm of political philosophy.  Any system you choose is unable to solve all the problems inherent in social structure.

[edit: Rat is already answering some of this]

100% TROOF

It seems to me that a lot of the arguments are silly.

Roads - Interstates are primarily for two things. First eash of movement across the country in cases of national emergency or a need to move serious millitary muscle across country quickly. Second, Interstate commerce. Both are areas that general libertarian philosophy place in the feds hands. State roads fill two major needs, moving State resources around in case of emergency and to support statewide commerce. Again, an area that general libertarian philosophy says is OK for the State.

The military, is an interesting quandry. On one side, thanks to the Millitary Industrial Complex, its a near fucking requirement to have a standing army all the time. On the other, if there wasn't a standing army all the time, we wouldn't have army bases in Saudi Arabia, we wouldn't have guys 'containing' Saddam, we wouldn't have a presence that pisses off large chunks of the planet.

IMO, running civilians through defense/survival/militia training would be awesome. If that were the case, I think incidents like NOLA would have turned out very differently. It's fine to hope for assistance from the Feds or State governments, but when disaster strikes you... the only person you know will be there for sure, is you. If you cannot save your own ass, everything else is a crap shoot.

Mail, I think could be handled by private services... I dunno about where you live but our mail service is nearly unusable here. We don't leave outgoing mail in the mailbox anymore, because the mail man doesn't pick it up unless he happens to have something to drop off. He's left the box open during storms and ruined all the mail at least 5 times in the past year, and we regularly get mail for people that live nowhere near us.

I think your broader point is the right one, no single political philosophy works. Our best hope is some sort of conglomeration that gets people 'most' of what they want.


Quote
Except no-one will.  Especially when its a philosophy which is diametrically opposed to how human's actually behave ie non-rationally.  Libertarianism falls apart once you remove the assumption of rationality and, as I keep on saying, humans are not rational.  In fact, the entire conception of laisse-faire economics falls apart when you realize this, but sssshhh, don't tell the economists.  They'd have to start all over again with their voodoo science, if they accepted this.

I have yet to see a philosophy that is actually based on how humans really behave ;-)
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2009, 04:53:24 pm
Now, the Libertarian Party, is a *capitalist* party. It's in favor of what *I* would regard a *particular form* of authoritarian control. Namely, the kind that comes through private ownership and control, which is an *extremely* rigid system of domination -- people have to... people can survive, by renting themselves to it, and basically in no other way... I do disagree with them *very* sharply, and I think that they are not..understanding the *fundamental* doctrine, that you should be free from domination and control, including the control of the manager and the owner.
Noam Chomsky

There isn't much point arguing about the word "libertarian." It would make about as much sense to argue with an unreconstructed Stalinist about the word "democracy" -- recall that they called what they'd constructed "peoples' democracies." The weird offshoot of ultra-right individualist anarchism that is called "libertarian" here happens to amount to advocacy of perhaps the worst kind of imaginable tyranny, namely unaccountable private tyranny. If they want to call that "libertarian," fine; after all, Stalin called his system "democratic." But why bother arguing about it?
Noam Chomsky

Anarcho-capitalists are against the State simply because they are capitalists first and foremost. Their critique of the State ultimately rests on a liberal interpretation of liberty as the inviolable rights to and of private property. They are not concerned with the social consequences of capitalism for the weak, powerless and ignorant. Their claim that all would benefit from a free exchange in the market is by no means certain; any unfettered market system would most likely sponsor a reversion to an unequal society with defense associations perpetuating exploitation and privilege. If anything, anarcho-capitalism is merely a free-for-all in which only the rich and cunning would benefit. It is tailor-made for 'rugged individualists' who do not care about the damage to others or to the environment which they leave in their wake. The forces of the market cannot provide genuine conditions for freedom any more than the powers of the State. The victims of both are equally enslaved, alienated and oppressed.
Peter Marshall, Demanding the Impossible: A History of Anarchism
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2009, 04:54:17 pm
I have yet to see a philosophy that is actually based on how humans really behave ;-)

True, but some are more inaccurate than others. 
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 05:07:42 pm
This whole discussion is why I really loved the "Non-Euclidian Politics" class that RAW taught before he died. It was the most sane look at politics I had seen up to that point. Indeed, RAW's 'libertarian' views that he promoted in that class were based far more on anarchistic philosophy than classical libertarianism. Particularly Proudhon, Lysander Spooner, Benjamin Tucker etc which espouse a view of anarcho-socialism, mutualism or something more along those lines.

Indeed, I think his main thrust was to examine how politics might work if 'force' was simply not an option for the powers that be. RAW put a lot of focus on the idea that open and clear communication between citizens and politicans, and between higherups and lowerdowns within goverment is necessary for any government to succeed. However, for any real communication to work, it must be between equals. Otherwise, the powerless will simply tell the powerful what they want to hear.

In short, he seemed to feel that the idea that a government has some right to force an individual to do something that they don't want to do is absurd. If its not ok for one man to tell another what to do by force, its not ok for 1000 men to tell another what to do by force.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2009, 05:15:35 pm
It would be very short lived, since every single political system relies on some form of coercion, whether it reifies it by claiming the market did it, or by state back-goons.  Structural violence is part of every system, especially the ones that claim its not.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 05:22:10 pm
Rat, that doesn't seem to answer the problem of individual selfishness and greed.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Jenne on July 01, 2009, 05:28:10 pm
The "you can't tell someone what to do" thing seems ridiculously unrealistic, though.  If the individual in question wants to rape babies and steal from the old...do you just let them?  I think not.  If no one tells anyone what to do for the perfect world, then the people inhabiting it need to be fucking perfect themselves.

We all know that just isn't going to happen.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 05:30:06 pm
Rat, that doesn't seem to answer the problem of individual selfishness and greed.

Well of course not. One of the things I liked about the Non-Euclidian politics class was that RAW explicitly stated that we have yet to find any system that works for all issues. The Mutualism, anarcho-socialism etc options simply put the responsibility on the individuals and their voluntary associations.

So, if someone is selfish and greedy, they can choose not to associate with any other group of individuals in a collective etc. Of course, that means they must be entirely self-sufficient. If they are, good for them. If they are not, then they would want to find the collective group that most closely aligns with their aims/goals etc. For people that want to be in a collective, with a leader/leaders and rules etc then they can join that group. There is no requirement that says there are no rules, or there is no ruling entity, the only requirement is that ANY rules, ruling entity, leaders etc are followed voluntarily by the people following that system.

So if a group wanted a socialist collective, no worries. If another group wanted an anarcho-capitalist system, good for them. If some people said Fuck Off I'm John Galt, well thats ok too... but when their ranch burns to the ground and they're homeless, they might decide having some other humans to rely on is a good idea.

Is it possible, I dunno... However, I do think its the only sort of system that could legitimately claim to be ruled by the people, or legitimately claim to be a nation of free people.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 05:32:57 pm
The "you can't tell someone what to do" thing seems ridiculously unrealistic, though.  If the individual in question wants to rape babies and steal from the old...do you just let them?  I think not.  If no one tells anyone what to do for the perfect world, then the people inhabiting it need to be fucking perfect themselves.

We all know that just isn't going to happen.
Which is one reason I'm not a libertarian.... I'm a rational anarchist. In the above example, I would just kill the bastard that wanted to rape babies. Of course, that act comes with consequences. Maybe people would say "You killed someone, you should die" or maybe they would say "Dude deserved it, motherfucking baby rapist!"
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 05:47:00 pm
Sometimes it seems to me that all political ideas kind of collapse when more than 1000 people are involved.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 05:49:40 pm
Sometimes it seems to me that all political ideas kind of collapse when more than 1000 people are involved.

I agree 100%

In fact, from what I've read, many of the people who started this country kind of agreed and thought that States would help alleviate the issue...
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2009, 05:55:33 pm
Infinite habitable land would help the issue.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 06:02:54 pm
Infinite habitable land would help the issue.

Until there formed a group of people whose idea of "freedom" is to invade, conquer, rape and pillage other people's inhabitable land just for shits and giggles, not for actual want of something.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 06:04:02 pm
Infinite habitable land would help the issue.

Until there formed a group of people whose idea of "freedom" is to invade, conquer, rape and pillage other people's inhabitable land just for shits and giggles, not for actual want of something.

Did I accidentally just stumble back to discordianism?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 06:10:07 pm
Infinite habitable land would help the issue.

Until there formed a group of people whose idea of "freedom" is to invade, conquer, rape and pillage other people's inhabitable land just for shits and giggles, not for actual want of something.

Let's remove the emotional tags of rape and pillage and re look at this. Imagine if you were born in a 'free zone' of some sort. Nearby is a powerful government that decides it is in your best interests that they tell you what you will and will not do, demand tribute and tell you 'for the good of everyone' that you have to give up your land or guns or dope or tobacco etc.

Sounds pretty horrible.... except that is precisely where we are today. We are all born free, but because of the idiotic system we live in, the group of people that hide behind the label government think they can tell you what to do, because you were freely born on some piece of land that they claim as part of the United States. They hold you to a contract signed by some asshats 200+ years ago, probably before your family was even around... and if they were around, its unlikely that anyone bothered to get their opinion on the contract.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: BabylonHoruv on July 01, 2009, 06:25:50 pm
This whole discussion is why I really loved the "Non-Euclidian Politics" class that RAW taught before he died. It was the most sane look at politics I had seen up to that point. Indeed, RAW's 'libertarian' views that he promoted in that class were based far more on anarchistic philosophy than classical libertarianism. Particularly Proudhon, Lysander Spooner, Benjamin Tucker etc which espouse a view of anarcho-socialism, mutualism or something more along those lines.

Indeed, I think his main thrust was to examine how politics might work if 'force' was simply not an option for the powers that be. RAW put a lot of focus on the idea that open and clear communication between citizens and politicans, and between higherups and lowerdowns within goverment is necessary for any government to succeed. However, for any real communication to work, it must be between equals. Otherwise, the powerless will simply tell the powerful what they want to hear.

In short, he seemed to feel that the idea that a government has some right to force an individual to do something that they don't want to do is absurd. If its not ok for one man to tell another what to do by force, its not ok for 1000 men to tell another what to do by force.

Anarchism IS classical Libertarianism.  The sort espoused by LPUSA is the radical offshoot, not the classical version.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: BabylonHoruv on July 01, 2009, 06:27:08 pm
The "you can't tell someone what to do" thing seems ridiculously unrealistic, though.  If the individual in question wants to rape babies and steal from the old...do you just let them?  I think not.  If no one tells anyone what to do for the perfect world, then the people inhabiting it need to be fucking perfect themselves.

We all know that just isn't going to happen.

And if someone is in charge of telling people what to do, they need to be perfect.  The people aren't perfect arguement cuts both ways.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 01, 2009, 06:32:02 pm
1) Rat, i think the fact that you have to postulate an extremely radical shift in society to even begin to answer Cain's question more or less invalidates Libertarianism from the get-go.  It seems you could also say, "none of that would be a problem if we were all nice to each other."  [edit: Cain just said the same thing.]


2) Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.

depends on where you live, here in the UK the NHS actually profits from smoking, because the money made from taxes is greater than the money spent in treating the illnesses caused by smoking (obviously, 'cause thats what profit is...).


That's still money FROM the general public TO the healthcare system. Also, the healthcare system's profit margin is not relevant to the cost of treatment.

 
Quote
Or another way of looking at it, smokers are basically paying for their own treatment.

It was hard for me to not just facepalm this. I can hardly believe anyone who can clearly read and write would say something this transparently daft.

What you said would ONLY be true if EVERYONE WHO PAYS TAXES is a smoker. Can you please apply a little basic logic? A ten-year-old could figure this out without prompting, for fuck's sake. Don't make me spell out for you how, exactly, nonsmokers end up subsidizing healthcare for smokers.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Thurnez Isa on July 01, 2009, 06:33:36 pm
My problem with Libertarianism is the same big problem I have with most political philosophies
and that is that is makes specific claims on how people will act within a certain situation. As soon as someone does not act as the philosophy dictates the philosophy becomes no different then the any other idealistic political ideas in the graveyard of idealistic political ideas.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2009, 06:37:27 pm
Infinite habitable land would help the issue.

Until there formed a group of people whose idea of "freedom" is to invade, conquer, rape and pillage other people's inhabitable land just for shits and giggles, not for actual want of something.

Let's remove the emotional tags of rape and pillage and re look at this. Imagine if you were born in a 'free zone' of some sort. Nearby is a powerful government that decides it is in your best interests that they tell you what you will and will not do, demand tribute and tell you 'for the good of everyone' that you have to give up your land or guns or dope or tobacco etc.

Sounds pretty horrible.... except that is precisely where we are today. We are all born free, but because of the idiotic system we live in, the group of people that hide behind the label government think they can tell you what to do, because you were freely born on some piece of land that they claim as part of the United States. They hold you to a contract signed by some asshats 200+ years ago, probably before your family was even around... and if they were around, its unlikely that anyone bothered to get their opinion on the contract.



Thats why we have theories of popular consent and right of revolution.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 06:42:34 pm
Infinite habitable land would help the issue.

Until there formed a group of people whose idea of "freedom" is to invade, conquer, rape and pillage other people's inhabitable land just for shits and giggles, not for actual want of something.

Let's remove the emotional tags of rape and pillage and re look at this. Imagine if you were born in a 'free zone' of some sort. Nearby is a powerful government that decides it is in your best interests that they tell you what you will and will not do, demand tribute and tell you 'for the good of everyone' that you have to give up your land or guns or dope or tobacco etc.

Sounds pretty horrible.... except that is precisely where we are today. We are all born free, but because of the idiotic system we live in, the group of people that hide behind the label government think they can tell you what to do, because you were freely born on some piece of land that they claim as part of the United States. They hold you to a contract signed by some asshats 200+ years ago, probably before your family was even around... and if they were around, its unlikely that anyone bothered to get their opinion on the contract.



Thats why we have theories of popular consent and right of revolution.

And Spooner would counter that, in the US at least, such theories were ended with the Civil War. The south didn't consent, they revolted and they were mercilessly put down by the federal government. Up to that point they had the theory of voluntary association, that each state voluntarily joined with the Union and could leave if they felt the need. Hell, he was an abolitionist and felt that the Civil War was a horrible atrocity against the freedom of citizens in this country.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Requia ☣ on July 01, 2009, 06:54:42 pm
2) Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.

Yes but it also costs hundreds of thousands if you die from something not related to smoking too.  Pretty much everyone will rack up a massive hospital bill towards the end.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 06:57:14 pm
So, you're saying that all death is equally expensive?

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 01, 2009, 07:00:11 pm
2) Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.

Yes but it also costs hundreds of thousands if you die from something not related to smoking too.  Pretty much everyone will rack up a massive hospital bill towards the end.


While it's true that the overall cost of healthcare is about the same (possibly a little more for nonsmokers because they incur more costs over the span of their longer life) nonsmokers live longer and are productive for more years, paying more into the healthcare system over their life spans.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Jenne on July 01, 2009, 07:00:47 pm
The "you can't tell someone what to do" thing seems ridiculously unrealistic, though.  If the individual in question wants to rape babies and steal from the old...do you just let them?  I think not.  If no one tells anyone what to do for the perfect world, then the people inhabiting it need to be fucking perfect themselves.

We all know that just isn't going to happen.

And if someone is in charge of telling people what to do, they need to be perfect.  The people aren't perfect arguement cuts both ways.

That's where there's a decision made as to what is considered the great good for the assembly--and notice I took the agency out of the decision-making since that's variable.  I'm guessing since there IS an assembly, they will decide (again, differing agencies there as well) about a common good.  How much trust you can put on that is dependant on several varied factors of course.

And I haven't read past this post so if there's something after this more eloquent or whatever, I apologize ahead of time.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: BabylonHoruv on July 01, 2009, 07:01:58 pm
2) Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.

Yes but it also costs hundreds of thousands if you die from something not related to smoking too.  Pretty much everyone will rack up a massive hospital bill towards the end.


While it's true that the overall cost of healthcare is about the same (possibly a little more for nonsmokers because they incur more costs over the span of their longer life) nonsmokers live longer and are productive for more years, paying more into the healthcare system over their life spans.

Not if you tax the shit out of ciggarettes.  Which I am pretty sure was the point about the NHS in Britain.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 07:02:03 pm
So, you're saying that all death is equally expensive?



It can be. We're living undeniably longer and longer lives and the last 10 years are not necessarily the cheapest or most self-sufficient ones, either.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 01, 2009, 07:04:37 pm
2) Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.

Yes but it also costs hundreds of thousands if you die from something not related to smoking too.  Pretty much everyone will rack up a massive hospital bill towards the end.


While it's true that the overall cost of healthcare is about the same (possibly a little more for nonsmokers because they incur more costs over the span of their longer life) nonsmokers live longer and are productive for more years, paying more into the healthcare system over their life spans.

Not if you tax the shit out of ciggarettes.  Which I am pretty sure was the point about the NHS in Britain.

Well, if they're getting more in cigarette tax alone (not counting other sources of income) than it's costing to treat smoking-related illnesses, that is a good point.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 07:06:11 pm
2) Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.

Yes but it also costs hundreds of thousands if you die from something not related to smoking too.  Pretty much everyone will rack up a massive hospital bill towards the end.


While it's true that the overall cost of healthcare is about the same (possibly a little more for nonsmokers because they incur more costs over the span of their longer life) nonsmokers live longer and are productive for more years, paying more into the healthcare system over their life spans.

The argument about health costs for smoking is stupid, particularly now in light of the current administration's plans. Either healthcare is something everyone chips in on and helps out with, or people fund their own. You don't get to say "Well, I would like everyone to pay for healthcare together... also, you can't smoke because it will waste my money!"

I mean, hell what happens when some Christian fundie gets into office and decides that premarital sex is unacceptable because it costs too much in STD treatments, abortions, pregnancies etc? Or abortions aren't covered, or the Pill or ...

If universal healthcare is the goal, then it needs to be universal for all citizens, however they desire to spend their time. If thats not acceptable, then don't stick your money in the group kitty.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Thurnez Isa on July 01, 2009, 07:09:23 pm
2) Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.

Yes but it also costs hundreds of thousands if you die from something not related to smoking too.  Pretty much everyone will rack up a massive hospital bill towards the end.


While it's true that the overall cost of healthcare is about the same (possibly a little more for nonsmokers because they incur more costs over the span of their longer life) nonsmokers live longer and are productive for more years, paying more into the healthcare system over their life spans.

The argument about health costs for smoking is stupid, particularly now in light of the current administration's plans. Either healthcare is something everyone chips in on and helps out with, or people fund their own. You don't get to say "Well, I would like everyone to pay for healthcare together... also, you can't smoke because it will waste my money!"

I mean, hell what happens when some Christian fundie gets into office and decides that premarital sex is unacceptable because it costs too much in STD treatments, abortions, pregnancies etc? Or abortions aren't covered, or the Pill or ...

If universal healthcare is the goal, then it needs to be universal for all citizens, however they desire to spend their time. If thats not acceptable, then don't stick your money in the group kitty.

all that would be against your constitution
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Requia ☣ on July 01, 2009, 07:16:18 pm
So, you're saying that all death is equally expensive?



No, just all expensive in general.  i don't have enough data to say how smokers compare to non smokers, I know NHS busted the 'fat people are draining our healthcare funds' myth and found that they cost slightly less though, there may be a study for smokers too.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 07:23:50 pm
2) Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.

Yes but it also costs hundreds of thousands if you die from something not related to smoking too.  Pretty much everyone will rack up a massive hospital bill towards the end.


While it's true that the overall cost of healthcare is about the same (possibly a little more for nonsmokers because they incur more costs over the span of their longer life) nonsmokers live longer and are productive for more years, paying more into the healthcare system over their life spans.

The argument about health costs for smoking is stupid, particularly now in light of the current administration's plans. Either healthcare is something everyone chips in on and helps out with, or people fund their own. You don't get to say "Well, I would like everyone to pay for healthcare together... also, you can't smoke because it will waste my money!"

I mean, hell what happens when some Christian fundie gets into office and decides that premarital sex is unacceptable because it costs too much in STD treatments, abortions, pregnancies etc? Or abortions aren't covered, or the Pill or ...

If universal healthcare is the goal, then it needs to be universal for all citizens, however they desire to spend their time. If thats not acceptable, then don't stick your money in the group kitty.

all that would be against your constitution


Uh, what? I am pretty sure that smoking, abortion, STD and national healthcare aren't covered by the Constitution.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Thurnez Isa on July 01, 2009, 07:29:35 pm
freedom of choice is though

though its still no guarantee in the modern political environment
From a country with health care.. you got nothing to worry about in those matters

You do have to worry about too much bureaucratic intervention, which gets costly
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 07:31:27 pm

The argument about health costs for smoking is stupid, particularly now in light of the current administration's plans. Either healthcare is something everyone chips in on and helps out with, or people fund their own. You don't get to say "Well, I would like everyone to pay for healthcare together... also, you can't smoke because it will waste my money!"

I mean, hell what happens when some Christian fundie gets into office and decides that premarital sex is unacceptable because it costs too much in STD treatments, abortions, pregnancies etc? Or abortions aren't covered, or the Pill or ...

If universal healthcare is the goal, then it needs to be universal for all citizens, however they desire to spend their time. If thats not acceptable, then don't stick your money in the group kitty.

Agreed. There's something fundamentally hypocritical about saying "The haves owe it to the have-nots to pay into the pot, even if they're not dipping in" and then scream bloody murder about making people eat right and quit smoking because it's going to cost you money.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 07:33:46 pm
So, abolish all medical insurance, then?

And when someone's grandmother gets bone cancer and can't afford treatment, they die, yes?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 07:35:46 pm
freedom of choice is though

though its still no guarantee in the modern political environment
From a country with health care.. you got nothing to worry about in those matters

You do have to worry about too much bureaucratic intervention, which gets costly

Uh? Freedom of choice? Which bit is that under?

I know freedom of religion, well freedom from a state mandated religion is in there. Freedom to bear arms, freedom to gather, freedom to be free of unreasonable search and seizure... but choice? Esp. choice about abortion, sex, smoking? I think thats a long shot interpretation of any bit of the constitution I can recall at this moment.

Though if you point out the relevant bits, it would probably be easier to grok what you're saying.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Jenne on July 01, 2009, 07:35:49 pm
So, abolish all medical insurance, then?

And when someone's grandmother gets bone cancer and can't afford treatment, they die, yes?

Har, welcome to Pakistan.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: BabylonHoruv on July 01, 2009, 07:36:20 pm
So, abolish all medical insurance, then?

And when someone's grandmother gets bone cancer and can't afford treatment, they die, yes?

It's either that or let the smokers and fat people have public healthcare too.  Everything in between is a pretty shitty compromise that the insurance companies get rich off of.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 07:38:37 pm
So, abolish all medical insurance, then?

And when someone's grandmother gets bone cancer and can't afford treatment, they die, yes?

Well, she's gonna die anyway at some point. Likely she won't have a very good time with the chemo and will waste away slowly while paying for the Doctor's kids to go to college and watching her family struggle to deal with their lives and her constant needs.

Personally, I'm all for optional government sponsored health care... as long as it doesn't come with mandates about what legal activites one can and cannot be involved in (smoking, fornication, gluttony etc). Educate people as to the dangers, sure... make any demands, hell no.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 07:43:21 pm


all that would be against your constitution


Uh, what? I am pretty sure that smoking, abortion, STD and national healthcare aren't covered by the Constitution.

No, she's technically right. I mean: we're supposed to have the right to be secure in our persons and possessions in this country under the Fourth, and the Tenth precludes the Federal Government from being allowed to assume powers not specifically granted in the original Bill of Rights and that all other matters should default to the States and The People. The Tenth was effectively abolished with the Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson administrations otherwise "National Healthcare" would be off the table entirely.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 07:44:06 pm
I think we're wandering away from the point.

Nav thought smoking doesn't affect anyone but the smoker.

Smokers who need expensive medical treatment rely on either taxpayers or people belonging to the same insurance company.

The medical costs of all the people smoking in the us each year add up to about $90 billion.  Smokers are not the only people who ultimately pay these costs.

Therefore, smoking affects other people.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 07:44:29 pm
So, abolish all medical insurance, then?

And when someone's grandmother gets bone cancer and can't afford treatment, they die, yes?

Medical Insurance is a product.

National Healthcare is a policy.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 07:47:49 pm
I think we're wandering away from the point.

Nav thought smoking doesn't affect anyone but the smoker.

Smokers who need expensive medical treatment rely on either taxpayers or people belonging to the same insurance company.

The medical costs of all the people smoking in the us each year add up to about $90 billion.  Smokers are not the only people who ultimately pay these costs.

Therefore, smoking affects other people.

Therefore anything you do that might possibly risk your health affects other people. Bunjee Jumping, Driving a Car, not getting proper rest, drinking alcohol, sitting on your ass at PD.com rather than getting good daily exercise...

To tie smoking effects through healthcare seems a bit disingenuous.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: fomenter on July 01, 2009, 07:50:18 pm
I think we're wandering away from the point.

Nav thought smoking doesn't affect anyone but the smoker.

Smokers who need expensive medical treatment rely on either taxpayers or people belonging to the same insurance company.

The medical costs of all the people smoking in the us each year add up to about $90 billion.  Smokers are not the only people who ultimately pay these costs.

Therefore, smoking affects other people.

don't smokers pay higher amounts for insurance and more in taxes with the cigarette tax ? i would think between the two the extra cost would almost be negated?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 07:51:01 pm
My point exactly, Rat.

In a society, everything we do can be connected to a large amount of other people.

The notion of "what I do to myself doesn't affect anyone else" is a specious argument.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 07:56:25 pm
My point exactly, Rat.

In a society, everything we do can be connected to a large amount of other people.

The notion of "what I do to myself doesn't affect anyone else" is a specious argument.

Well, sure I mean if we back it up far enough every electron interacts with other electrons so were all one living creature the size of the universe. I'm pretty sure the initial comment was talking about direct effects, not artificially created effects due to insurance companies.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 08:04:29 pm
So, then a libertarian government would allow a person's pocketbook to determine their health?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2009, 08:08:31 pm
So, then a libertarian government would allow a person's pocketbook to determine their health?

No.  It would allow it to determine everything.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 08:24:17 pm
So, then a libertarian government would allow a person's pocketbook to determine their health?

No.  It would allow it to determine everything.

:rimshot:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 01, 2009, 08:26:26 pm
2) Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.

Yes but it also costs hundreds of thousands if you die from something not related to smoking too.  Pretty much everyone will rack up a massive hospital bill towards the end.


While it's true that the overall cost of healthcare is about the same (possibly a little more for nonsmokers because they incur more costs over the span of their longer life) nonsmokers live longer and are productive for more years, paying more into the healthcare system over their life spans.

The argument about health costs for smoking is stupid, particularly now in light of the current administration's plans. Either healthcare is something everyone chips in on and helps out with, or people fund their own. You don't get to say "Well, I would like everyone to pay for healthcare together... also, you can't smoke because it will waste my money!"

I mean, hell what happens when some Christian fundie gets into office and decides that premarital sex is unacceptable because it costs too much in STD treatments, abortions, pregnancies etc? Or abortions aren't covered, or the Pill or ...

If universal healthcare is the goal, then it needs to be universal for all citizens, however they desire to spend their time. If thats not acceptable, then don't stick your money in the group kitty.

I wasn't arguing whether anything is acceptable or consistent. I was only saying that overall, nonsmokers contribute more... if you don't have a cigarette tax, which is a recent introduction here in Oregon.

Stating a fact does not require taking a position.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 01, 2009, 08:27:43 pm
So, then a libertarian government would allow a person's pocketbook to determine their health?

No.  It would allow it to determine everything.

Libertarianism defeats the purpose of civilization and, indeed, society itself.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 08:29:09 pm
Why do you hate Personal Freedom™?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: fomenter on July 01, 2009, 08:30:50 pm
So, then a libertarian government would allow a person's pocketbook to determine their health?

No.  It would allow it to determine everything.

this is a far different understanding of Libertarian than i have when i use the word??
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 08:32:53 pm
I believe Cain was invoking the "Snark Definition".
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 08:33:15 pm
So, then a libertarian government would allow a person's pocketbook to determine their health?

You mean in the way that the world has run for the past 10,000 years or so? Possibly.

So, then a libertarian government would allow a person's pocketbook to determine their health?

No.  It would allow it to determine everything.

this is a far different understanding of Libertarian than i have when i use the word??

The Libertarian party perhaps, but I assume thats the only view of libertarianism that a lot of people have. Sort of like Conservatives being not much like the GOP party faithful or Liberals not necessarily being 100% in line with Democrats thinking.*


*Cain being a major exception to this.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2009, 08:37:17 pm
I believe Cain was invoking the "Snark Definition".

The definition according to the majority of libertarians I read, met, spoken to or otherwise had a chance to understand their position.  Sure, there are people who call themselves libertarians who will no doubt concede that there are a very large number of non-market goods, including health-care and education, and even left-libertarians who reject laissez-faire entirely, but these people are a minority of those who use the name libertarian, and are not considered libertarian by the previously mentioned majority.

They should get themselves a new name.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 01, 2009, 08:42:31 pm
So, then a libertarian government would allow a person's pocketbook to determine their health?

You mean in the way that the world has run for the past 10,000 years or so? Possibly.



A man who is shot, with no health insurance and no ability to pay, will be treated by a doctor in today's society. 

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: fomenter on July 01, 2009, 08:45:08 pm
I believe Cain was invoking the "Snark Definition".

The definition according to the majority of libertarians I read, met, spoken to or otherwise had a chance to understand their position.  Sure, there are people who call themselves libertarians who will no doubt concede that there are a very large number of non-market goods, including health-care and education, and even left-libertarians who reject laissez-faire entirely, but these people are a minority of those who use the name libertarian, and are not considered libertarian by the previously mentioned majority.

They should get themselves a new name.

my disconnect could very well come from having considered my views to be somewhat libertarian and having never read Ann rand or associated myself with the party of the same name i take (have taken) the ideals of this country's founding, limited government, checks and balances, accountability,  and personal freedoms as being "libertarian"  i may be way off base on my definitions.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 09:14:05 pm
So, then a libertarian government would allow a person's pocketbook to determine their health?

You mean in the way that the world has run for the past 10,000 years or so? Possibly.



A man who is shot, with no health insurance and no ability to pay, will be treated by a doctor in today's society. 



There is nothing in Libertarian philosophy that would keep him from being treated in that society. Good Samaritan's have always existed and will probably always exist. Libertarian philosophy, at its base doesn't demand money for goods or services, it only demands that the government not force how goods and services are exchanged between two people that wish to engage in mutual trade.

The real problems in a Libertarian society would be from guys like Bernie Madoff, not from some doctor that finds a guy all shot up. One would presume his Hippocratic oath would demand action. Further, from his standpoint, if he lets some poor sod die on his doorstep, thats not good for the old Public Relations. One advantage, in a libertarian society would be the focus on responsibility for self... in all choices. A libertarian consumer would be far more focused on who they bought from and what they bought. A libertarian merchant, doctor etc would feel a greater responsibility toward their own behavior.

Every social option has bad problems. The current society here in the US, promotes lifestyles where people live below sea level, in a hurricane path, with years of warnings... and still assume that someone else will make sure they're ok. The current society here in the US makes consumers feel safe when they buy toys covered in lead paint, because they assume someone else has already made sure its ok.

No system will solve all of our problems, but I'm not sure the ones in a libertarian society would be worse or better than what we have now, just different. What would be better IMO, is more self reliance and self determination on the part of individuals. But then, thats never good for government. Much better to have docile people that use self determination to vote for American Idol ;-)
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 09:33:07 pm


The real problems in a Libertarian society would be from guys like Bernie Madoff,

Which is where I depart from extreme-libertarianism. A truly Libertarian society would actually protect guys like Madoff. The thinking there is that if he was slick enough to get you to give him your money and you failed to do the research and actually trusted him, it's your own fault. You get what you deserve. Profit from the lesson and move on.

I definitely believe there needs to be some level of regulation when it comes to the marketplace--particularly with regards to things like healthcare, food, drugs, etc but ultimately personal responsibility should rule the day.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 01, 2009, 09:41:29 pm
The current society here in the US, promotes lifestyles where people live below sea level, in a hurricane path, with years of warnings... and still assume that someone else will make sure they're ok. The current society here in the US makes consumers feel safe when they buy toys covered in lead paint, because they assume someone else has already made sure its ok.

Rat, lumping lead paint with hurricane zones is absurd. How would anybody know their toys were covered with lead paint? It's illegal... are you saying it shouldn't be illegal, and that everyone should be constantly buying lead test kits and testing everything?

I mean, we assume that laws that make it illegal to sell cottage cheese that contains arsenic are protecting us, right? Maybe we should scrap all food purity and safety laws and just assume that every product is poisonous

what the hell

some assumptions are perfectly reasonable.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 09:46:22 pm
The current society here in the US, promotes lifestyles where people live below sea level, in a hurricane path, with years of warnings... and still assume that someone else will make sure they're ok. The current society here in the US makes consumers feel safe when they buy toys covered in lead paint, because they assume someone else has already made sure its ok.

Rat, lumping lead paint with hurricane zones is absurd. How would anybody know their toys were covered with lead paint? It's illegal... are you saying it shouldn't be illegal, and that everyone should be constantly buying lead test kits and testing everything?

I mean, we assume that laws that make it illegal to sell cottage cheese that contains arsenic are protecting us, right? Maybe we should scrap all food purity and safety laws and just assume that every product is poisonous

what the hell

some assumptions are perfectly reasonable.

I don't understand what the argument is here. You aren't saying anything he hasn't already covered...or did I miss something?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2009, 09:47:02 pm
I believe Cain was invoking the "Snark Definition".

The definition according to the majority of libertarians I read, met, spoken to or otherwise had a chance to understand their position.  Sure, there are people who call themselves libertarians who will no doubt concede that there are a very large number of non-market goods, including health-care and education, and even left-libertarians who reject laissez-faire entirely, but these people are a minority of those who use the name libertarian, and are not considered libertarian by the previously mentioned majority.

They should get themselves a new name.

my disconnect could very well come from having considered my views to be somewhat libertarian and having never read Ann rand or associated myself with the party of the same name i take (have taken) the ideals of this country's founding, limited government, checks and balances, accountability,  and personal freedoms as being "libertarian"  i may be way off base on my definitions.

See, to me, I would consider that conservative liberalism, with the emphasis on liberal side of the equation (I would call it classical liberalism, but libertarians have hijacked that term as well).  When you read guys like Thomas Jefferson and James Madison and Benjamin Franklin, in their entirety, not the cherry-picked quotes used by various libertarian partisans, you get a point of view which advocates markets, but only so far as they promote wealth for the majority.  I think it was Jefferson who said "legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property... Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise."  He also sought to weaken copyright protection so that monopolies couldn't form.  Things like that, to me, seperate the intentions of the US founders entirely from libertarians, who hold property ownership as a sacrosanct, moral right in and of itself and regardless of the social cost.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Jenne on July 01, 2009, 09:53:12 pm
I think too many of us are too used to seeing the "self-actuation" side of the Federalist Papers' authors as well as the "Founding Fathers," and not the protectionist, socialist side of them.  They thought beyond the ideals of "keep your mitts off my stuff, don't tell me how to live my life" and sought a public welfare as well.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 09:53:49 pm


The real problems in a Libertarian society would be from guys like Bernie Madoff,

Which is where I depart from extreme-libertarianism. A truly Libertarian society would actually protect guys like Madoff. The thinking there is that if he was slick enough to get you to give him your money and you failed to do the research and actually trusted him, it's your own fault. You get what you deserve. Profit from the lesson and move on.

I definitely believe there needs to be some level of regulation when it comes to the marketplace--particularly with regards to things like healthcare, food, drugs, etc but ultimately personal responsibility should rule the day.

Yes, this seems to be similar to my personal views as well.

I can see a government that is focused on education, recommendation and basic regulation against fraud. For example, in Clyde's ideal world there would always be multiple sorts of everything (at least).

Government tested/approved
Trustworthy Non-Profit #1 tested/approved
Trustworthy Non-Profit #2 tested/approved
Trustworthy For-Profit #1 tested/approved
Trustworthy For-Profit #2 tested/approved
Not tested/approved

If people wanted to trust the government standards, they could pick meat, veggies, hedge funds that have been approved to meet the US Gold Star Standard. However, some people might not like the government stuff because *insert reason here*, so instead they could choose the standard set by some other group or select the "Not tested/approved" goods/services/hedge funds.

In the area I grew up in, there is a lovely little Orchard. They have awesome strawberries, peaches, apples, grapes etc etc etc until recently they had fantastic apple ciderm fresh squeezed and processed right there. Until the government came in and shut it down. Now, this wasn't due to an outbreak of Cider bourne Heebiejeebies... this was because the government decided that all cider must be pasturized in a very specific way with very specific equipment and priced all the little orchards right out of the cider business. Cider is now available at the supermarket from some big corporate farm and it is not as tangy or tasty. I would have liked to have the option of still buying their cider, even if it had a label that said "This product does not follow the recommended US guidelines for processing cider".

Same for hedge funds and toys with lead paint (oh except the government is regulating that and still ended up passing bad products to the consumer).

Nigel, my point was not that everyone needs to have their own testing kits, but that our current society ASSUMES that someone else is watching their back. Think back to how many people assumed that there would be plenty of food/water/stuff at the Superdome... when there were lines of folks holding clothes and televisions, but not jugs of clean drinking water. Or that people ASSUMED the toy was fine for their kid to suck on because the government would let people sell dangerous stuff like lead painted kids toys.

Its the assumptions that I'm talking about. The assumptions of people who are not interested in personal responsibility, but figure their survival is the governments responsibility.


Also, Jenne and Cain, a dead on view of Jefferson et all.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: BabylonHoruv on July 01, 2009, 09:56:38 pm
The current society here in the US, promotes lifestyles where people live below sea level, in a hurricane path, with years of warnings... and still assume that someone else will make sure they're ok. The current society here in the US makes consumers feel safe when they buy toys covered in lead paint, because they assume someone else has already made sure its ok.

Rat, lumping lead paint with hurricane zones is absurd. How would anybody know their toys were covered with lead paint? It's illegal... are you saying it shouldn't be illegal, and that everyone should be constantly buying lead test kits and testing everything?

I mean, we assume that laws that make it illegal to sell cottage cheese that contains arsenic are protecting us, right? Maybe we should scrap all food purity and safety laws and just assume that every product is poisonous

what the hell

some assumptions are perfectly reasonable.

This is an example of why Anarchism works, but anarcho capitalism doesn't.  If you get your toys from Bernie the toymaker, you can be pretty sure about his paint.  If your cottage cheese comes from the farmer down the lane, you can be pretty sure of it.  government or no government.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Fuquad on July 01, 2009, 10:05:55 pm
There is nothing in Libertarian philosophy that would keep him from being treated in that society.
Unless you include the fact that a person who isn't required to help doesn't have to help.
Good Samaritan's have always existed and will probably always exist.
True. but if the Doctor isn't a good Samaritan that hardly helps the man that has been shot
Libertarian philosophy, at its base doesn't demand money for goods or services, it only demands that the government not force how goods and services are exchanged between two people that wish to engage in mutual trade.
You're correct. But all that really means is that the Doctor can decide not to give the service if required.

The real problems in a Libertarian society would be from guys like Bernie Madoff, not from some doctor that finds a guy all shot up. One would presume his Hippocratic oath would demand action.
Because people always uphold the oaths they take which is why Bush didn't do anything unconstitutional.
 Further, from his standpoint, if he lets some poor sod die on his doorstep, thats not good for the old Public Relations.
I don't think manufacturing cars that are death traps because the company figured that the payouts for lawsuits would be cheaper than redesigning the car wouldn't be good for Public Relations but none of them seem worse off because of it.  
One advantage, in a libertarian society would be the focus on responsibility for self... in all choices.
Because people CHOOSE to be shot by random strangers. A libertarian consumer would be far more focused on who they bought from and what they bought.[/quote]
Sure they would. Mattel was just fined $2.3 million for lead paint in products they sold. I don't see why they wouldn't use lead paint if there were no government regulation about it.  
A libertarian merchant, doctor etc would feel a greater responsibility toward their own behavior.
Nothing says responsibility more than not having to be responsible.

Every social option has bad problems. The current society here in the US, promotes lifestyles where people live below sea level, in a hurricane path, with years of warnings... and still assume that someone else will make sure they're ok.
And which parts of America are safe to live in? from the extreme cold in the north during the winter to the extreme heat in the south during the summer to the hurricanes and tornadoes to the west coast with it's earthquakes and volcanic mountains waiting to erupt. There is currently nothing stopping a company from moving their production facilities. the expense alone wouldn't justify leaving behind a factory in order to move to a Safer" location.    
The current society here in the US makes consumers feel safe when they buy toys covered in lead paint, because they assume someone else has already made sure its ok.
And you're assuming that people are going to feel safer buying from companies that currently use lead paint while it is illegal because with deregulation the company is suddenly going to change the way they do business.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 10:09:27 pm
The current society here in the US, promotes lifestyles where people live below sea level, in a hurricane path, with years of warnings... and still assume that someone else will make sure they're ok. The current society here in the US makes consumers feel safe when they buy toys covered in lead paint, because they assume someone else has already made sure its ok.

Rat, lumping lead paint with hurricane zones is absurd. How would anybody know their toys were covered with lead paint? It's illegal... are you saying it shouldn't be illegal, and that everyone should be constantly buying lead test kits and testing everything?

I mean, we assume that laws that make it illegal to sell cottage cheese that contains arsenic are protecting us, right? Maybe we should scrap all food purity and safety laws and just assume that every product is poisonous

what the hell

some assumptions are perfectly reasonable.

This is an example of why Anarchism works, but anarcho capitalism doesn't.  If you get your toys from Bernie the toymaker, you can be pretty sure about his paint.  If your cottage cheese comes from the farmer down the lane, you can be pretty sure of it.  government or no government.

Not necessarily true. There was a REASON why meat-inspection and labor-laws came about when they did. Remember: when Teddy Roosevelt initiated those measures, things like meat were still fairly locally traded. Plant managers simply didn't care and the public had no other options-such was industry standard.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 01, 2009, 10:09:37 pm
The current society here in the US, promotes lifestyles where people live below sea level, in a hurricane path, with years of warnings... and still assume that someone else will make sure they're ok. The current society here in the US makes consumers feel safe when they buy toys covered in lead paint, because they assume someone else has already made sure its ok.

Rat, lumping lead paint with hurricane zones is absurd. How would anybody know their toys were covered with lead paint? It's illegal... are you saying it shouldn't be illegal, and that everyone should be constantly buying lead test kits and testing everything?

I mean, we assume that laws that make it illegal to sell cottage cheese that contains arsenic are protecting us, right? Maybe we should scrap all food purity and safety laws and just assume that every product is poisonous

what the hell

some assumptions are perfectly reasonable.

I don't understand what the argument is here. You aren't saying anything he hasn't already covered...or did I miss something?

Hope that helps you.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 10:27:30 pm
As much as I hate to admit it; Progressives like Roosevelt, Wilson and FDR fostered in some useful and damned necessary functions.

I'm also not too obtuse to admit that on some level; I'm sure there was foot-dragging and dissent when a lot of things we take for granted as societal no-brainers were introduced. We learned to accept them, learned to appreciate them and finally: came to take them for granted as common sense. Such may indeed be the way of centralized healthcare...on the other hand: it might not.

There are aspects of every single restrictive government agency that are inconsistent, unfair and downright corrupt. There are two schools of thought on this:
1. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, just work out the kinks. It takes time.
2. The Government shouldn't be taking on anymore bullshit that the free-market can handle until it starts managing the shit it's already got that's broken. At least with free-market, you've got SOME buyer power, but once the Government takes over, you're stuck with it until the Government feels good and ready to get off its ass and make slow-as-molasses changes.

I tend to go with the latter, obviously.

Here's where I am feeling out a personal dividing line:
When: "We can't just let corporations run around like crazy, taking advantage of The People whenever they want! People are getting HURT!"

starts to become: "We can't just let The People run around like crazy doing whatever they want! People are getting HURT!"
that's where I start to have a problem.

The tricky part is where to actually DRAW that line.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 10:36:10 pm
I think the most simple line is to have a government that provides information and opinion in a least-baised fashion. No enforcement, just 'Here's all the info'.

"The company XY Toys uses lead paint. This might make your kid stupid and sterile. Just thought you'd like to know."
"The company XY Foods has unsanitary conditions in their meat processing facilities, they don't even wash the poo off the meat before they grind it into hamburger. You might want to consider that."
"The company XY Investments has no actual products and makes money based off of a Ponzi scheme, any investment you make is likely to be worth $0. Do with this information as you wish."
"Tobacco can cause the following terrible ailments. Trust us, you don't want lung cancer."
"Marijuana can cause the ... err, you will get the munchies if you smoke it."
etc etc etc

Then if people ignore the information, fuck em. If they look at the info and say "Oh but I always make my hamburgers well done and that cooks the poop out of the patty, well then good for them... err. If they continue to smoke, then they get sick and die. If they continue to invest, then they lose money. If they continue to buy lead painted toys... then they won't have grandkids and I can't say that popping them out of the gene pool is a bad idea.

In short, a government that made sure the people were fully informed and still allowed them to make their own decisions, would be pretty useful.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2009, 10:42:59 pm
Except of course, in those cases where people didn't find out due to simple bad luck or isolation or some sort of mistake where the product was released before the safety information was, or they didn't believe it and fed/gave it to other family members anyway.  Kids aren't in a position to make rational choices or do their own shopping, being the most glaring and obvious example of where this would fail.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 01, 2009, 10:55:34 pm
Except of course, in those cases where people didn't find out due to simple bad luck or isolation or some sort of mistake where the product was released before the safety information was, or they didn't believe it and fed/gave it to other family members anyway. 

Even more the reason to rely on yourself. That shit happens NOW.

Quote
Kids aren't in a position to make rational choices or do their own shopping, being the most glaring and obvious example of where this would fail.

Agreed. I'm all for child protectionist laws...within reason. "WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?" LOL.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 01, 2009, 10:57:29 pm
Except of course, in those cases where people didn't find out due to simple bad luck or isolation or some sort of mistake where the product was released before the safety information was, or they didn't believe it and fed/gave it to other family members anyway.  Kids aren't in a position to make rational choices or do their own shopping, being the most glaring and obvious example of where this would fail.

Welcome to reality.

Humans do stupid shit because they don't know better and/or don't believe 'THEM' all the time... right now. Government cannot fix stupid... and I don't think it should.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: fomenter on July 01, 2009, 11:02:45 pm

See, to me, I would consider that conservative liberalism, with the emphasis on liberal side of the equation (I would call it classical liberalism, but libertarians have hijacked that term as well).  When you read guys like Thomas Jefferson and James Madison and Benjamin Franklin, in their entirety, not the cherry-picked quotes used by various libertarian partisans, you get a point of view which advocates markets, but only so far as they promote wealth for the majority.  I think it was Jefferson who said "legislators cannot invent too many devices for subdividing property... Another means of silently lessening the inequality of property is to exempt all from taxation below a certain point, and to tax the higher portions or property in geometrical progression as they rise."  He also sought to weaken copyright protection so that monopolies couldn't form.  Things like that, to me, seperate the intentions of the US founders entirely from libertarians, who hold property ownership as a sacrosanct, moral right in and of itself and regardless of the social cost.

this actually makes sense on a political ideology chart i fall in the middle of conservative libertarian,
 in the definitions given by the this web page http://www.conservative-resources.com/right-wing-vs-left-wing.html the definitions and what is opposite of what changes and i would fall on the classical liberalism conservative
(http://www.conservative-resources.com/images/right_wing_vs_left_wing.gif)
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2009, 11:05:15 pm
Agreed. I'm all for child protectionist laws...within reason. "WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN?!?" LOL.

Yeah.  I would think there is a significant difference between making sure a child isn't in a position where they can be poisoned by their food and, say, rewriting how the internet works on the off chance little Timmy is going to see a bit of softcore by mistake.

Quote
Humans do stupid shit because they don't know better and/or don't believe 'THEM' all the time... right now. Government cannot fix stupid... and I don't think it should.

But it can fix patently dangerous foodstuffs being given to a kid because a company wanted to cut corners.  You know, by actually banning it.  That doesn't fix stupid, but it also makes sure people don't end up dead because of the stupidity of others.

But you know, whats a few dead kids when we can have a more morally perfect political system, right?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 01, 2009, 11:07:26 pm
Or indeed dead mentally ill, paranoids, illiterates, people who don't own TVs or watch the news or listen to the radio enough...everyone should have the right to be given potentially dangerous foodstuffs because "people are stupid and we can't cure stupidty."  Sure, we could yank the products, but then we'd be hurting freedom.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: BabylonHoruv on July 01, 2009, 11:09:10 pm
The current society here in the US, promotes lifestyles where people live below sea level, in a hurricane path, with years of warnings... and still assume that someone else will make sure they're ok. The current society here in the US makes consumers feel safe when they buy toys covered in lead paint, because they assume someone else has already made sure its ok.

Rat, lumping lead paint with hurricane zones is absurd. How would anybody know their toys were covered with lead paint? It's illegal... are you saying it shouldn't be illegal, and that everyone should be constantly buying lead test kits and testing everything?

I mean, we assume that laws that make it illegal to sell cottage cheese that contains arsenic are protecting us, right? Maybe we should scrap all food purity and safety laws and just assume that every product is poisonous

what the hell

some assumptions are perfectly reasonable.

This is an example of why Anarchism works, but anarcho capitalism doesn't.  If you get your toys from Bernie the toymaker, you can be pretty sure about his paint.  If your cottage cheese comes from the farmer down the lane, you can be pretty sure of it.  government or no government.

Not necessarily true. There was a REASON why meat-inspection and labor-laws came about when they did. Remember: when Teddy Roosevelt initiated those measures, things like meat were still fairly locally traded. Plant managers simply didn't care and the public had no other options-such was industry standard.



yeah, greedy capitalists.  there's a big difference between the farmer down the lane, or your local, worker owned meat cooperative, and a meat packing plant that is owned by one man, run by many others, and serves the greater Chicago area.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 02, 2009, 05:54:49 pm
Navkat, I think one aspect that needs to be looked at is the reality of the current political situation.

It's one thing to hold onto an ideology, but if that ideology starts with a complete change of game rules, a grand total of fuck all will get done.

So, you have to look at the current state and manner of government, and start there.  

For example, coal and energy companies are dumping tons of shit into the air, water, and ground.  Global warming arguments aside, there are visible and horrible consequences to that.  So, you might say it would be a good idea for them to cut it out.  But how?  

The conservative position seems to say that cleaner plants would make more money in the long run, and killing the consumer is counter-productive, so eventually the invisible hand will make the companies fall in line.  This isn't happening.

The progressive position seems to say that we should regulate the living fuck out of the companies, forcing them to reduce their emissions or face fines or closure.  This would force many smaller energy companies out of business, causing prices to skyrocket... Not to mention that the lobbyists would never allow it.

So, the solution that sucks the least for everyone seems to be cap-and-trade.  The conservatives are pissed because the companies regulated and it will cost them money if they go over the limit, and the progressives are pissed because it means the more powerful companies will just buy more credits and keep fucking up the environment.  But at least there is a limit, and at least there are economic incentives to cut down emissions.

Government is fucked up in general; but human greed is just as fucked up.  In today's society, it seems like the two are in some sort of death match... But we can't let either one win.

The problem is: it's not going to cost the corporations a goddamned thing. WE are the ones who will start seeing $30 "emissions license acquisition" fees on our energy bills and it will be business as usual for the corporate world. And that's best case scenario (I believe). All this does is FURTHER the separation of US society into a two-class system.



Because it seemed germain to the issue here:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/jun/25/edward-markey/claims-cbo-predicts-cap-and-trade-will-cost-about-/

Quote
Responding to Republicans who have said a cap-and-trade bill could cost thousands of dollars a year for the average family, the Democratic sponsors of the bill are citing a new study from the Congressional Budget Office that they say shows their plan will be affordable.
 
"For the cost of about a postage stamp a day, all American families will see a return on their investment as our nation breaks our dependence on foreign oil, cuts dangerous carbon pollution and creates millions of new clean-energy jobs that can't be shipped overseas," Rep. Edward Markey said in a June 22, 2009, news release jointly issued with the co-sponsor, Rep. Henry Waxman.

Indeed, the report cited by Markey and Waxman predicts the bill would have a net annual economywide cost of $22 billion — or about $175 per household — in 2020. Divide that number by 365 days, and you get about 48 cents. A first-class stamp costs 44 cents, so Waxman is close.

The CBO's estimate includes several assumptions about important decisions that still must be made by Congress, such as how much energy companies will pay to buy and trade polluting credits. But it's worth reading the fine print on this one, because CBO notes that the actual cost per family will vary depending on income. For example, low-income consumers could expect to save $40 a year, while wealthy people will see a net increase for energy costs of $235 to $340 every year. And the analysis does not include the costs or benefits of other parts of the bill, such as government efforts to quickly develop new technology, wrote CBO director Douglas Elmendorf in a June 20 blog post.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 02, 2009, 09:16:11 pm
From the same article:

Quote
Putting a price tag on such a complex plan is tricky and controversial, as we note in our article Your Guide to the Cap-and-Trade Estimates . The Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank, says that cap-and-trade could raise the average family's annual energy bill by $1,241. House Republicans have said that cap-and-trade could cost consumers up to $3,100, a figure they say came from a Massachusetts Institute of Technology report. But the writers of that report admonished the GOP for incorrectly interpreting their work; intially, the authors predicted it would cost consumers about $340 annually, and have since updated that estimate to $800.

and:

Quote
It's also important to note that the costs will vary year to year. As the bill stands, polluting allowances will initially be given away for free. But by 2035, about 70 percent of those allocations will be sold by the government. Supporters of the bill say federal revenue from the program would be used to pay for tax credits and rebates for the middle class.

CBO chose 2020 as a milestone for its analysis because it's a point at which the program would have been in effect for eight years, giving the economy and polluters time to adjust. But had CBO chosen a later date, the cost per family may have been higher because the government would gradually be charging polluters more.

Waxman and Markey are clear about these variables and omissions in their press statement. They note that the poorest people will gain from the bill, and point out that the study does not include every element that could contribute to cap-and-trade's cost.

But critics are more skeptical of the report. By not including all variables, the CBO report "grossly underestimates costs of cap-and-trade," said a memo from the Heritage Foundation, which has published many articles opposing the proposal. Among other things, Heritage says the study is flawed because it doesn't address economic changes resulting from restricted energy use and potential job losses.

For this Truth-O-Meter item, we are not addressing which study is best, but focusing on whether Markey correctly described the CBO's findings. He was close — off by just 4 cents — and he indicated it was an approximation because he said "about a postage stamp a day." So we find the statement True.

But the real thing I have a problem with is the concept of a Government arbitrarily deciding that something can be treated as a commodity and rationing in this manner. I admit and understand that this is a task-oriented bill whose purpose is to address a specific issue, but I think it crosses an important/dangerous line with regards to the powers of Government regardless of purpose.

Does this mean that Government has the authority to treat usage-blocks of other services as commodities and allocate/tax/ration them in addition to their organic usage-costs? What about internet use? What about waste volume? Radio/television airwave usage? Can they add a tax for new home-builders based on the amount of healthy vegetation that's removed from the planet for driveways and structure area? I mean, if we can be talked into this, how long and how much passage of time until we can be persuaded into granting the Federal Government domain over and authority to restrict/monitor all the minutiae of our lives?

I know that all sounds terribly paranoid to some but I wonder about it. I hope you can see at least an iota of validity to the "mission creep" aspects of Government power and I don't trust the human nature of fallible men (even with the best of intentions) granted these kinds of powers to NOT keep moving that line with our "best interests" at heart. It's certainly tempting to solve a lot of their debt/budget problems with the revenue, no?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Requia ☣ on July 03, 2009, 06:20:27 am
Quote
Does this mean that Government has the authority to treat usage-blocks of other services as commodities and allocate/tax/ration them in addition to their organic usage-costs? What about internet use? What about waste volume? Radio/television airwave usage? Can they add a tax for new home-builders based on the amount of healthy vegetation that's removed from the planet for driveways and structure area? I mean, if we can be talked into this, how long and how much passage of time until we can be persuaded into granting the Federal Government domain over and authority to restrict/monitor all the minutiae of our lives?


lesse here:

Internet usage they don't tax, but they passed a bill stating they have the right to do so.  Radio and TV is heavily taxed on the broadcaster side for over the air, and on the user side for cable/satellite.  The Satellite's are taxed for airwave usage as well.  Phone's are taxed so heavily that the tax is twice the expense of a phone line for me.  The city charges homeowners here according to the amount of garbage they need to dump (with discounts if you separate out your recyclables), homebuilders would have to pay the same tax (if lower since a builder would probably haul the crap to the dump themselves).

I think its too late to worry about what they might do later.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 03, 2009, 06:29:02 am
Quote
Does this mean that Government has the authority to treat usage-blocks of other services as commodities and allocate/tax/ration them in addition to their organic usage-costs? What about internet use? What about waste volume? Radio/television airwave usage? Can they add a tax for new home-builders based on the amount of healthy vegetation that's removed from the planet for driveways and structure area? I mean, if we can be talked into this, how long and how much passage of time until we can be persuaded into granting the Federal Government domain over and authority to restrict/monitor all the minutiae of our lives?


lesse here:

Internet usage they don't tax, but they passed a bill stating they have the right to do so.  Radio and TV is heavily taxed on the broadcaster side for over the air, and on the user side for cable/satellite.  The Satellite's are taxed for airwave usage as well.  Phone's are taxed so heavily that the tax is twice the expense of a phone line for me.  The city charges homeowners here according to the amount of garbage they need to dump (with discounts if you separate out your recyclables), homebuilders would have to pay the same tax (if lower since a builder would probably haul the crap to the dump themselves).

I think its too late to worry about what they might do later.

ya got me there.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: BabylonHoruv on July 03, 2009, 03:27:25 pm
Quote
Does this mean that Government has the authority to treat usage-blocks of other services as commodities and allocate/tax/ration them in addition to their organic usage-costs? What about internet use? What about waste volume? Radio/television airwave usage? Can they add a tax for new home-builders based on the amount of healthy vegetation that's removed from the planet for driveways and structure area? I mean, if we can be talked into this, how long and how much passage of time until we can be persuaded into granting the Federal Government domain over and authority to restrict/monitor all the minutiae of our lives?


lesse here:

Internet usage they don't tax, but they passed a bill stating they have the right to do so.  Radio and TV is heavily taxed on the broadcaster side for over the air, and on the user side for cable/satellite.  The Satellite's are taxed for airwave usage as well.  Phone's are taxed so heavily that the tax is twice the expense of a phone line for me.  The city charges homeowners here according to the amount of garbage they need to dump (with discounts if you separate out your recyclables), homebuilders would have to pay the same tax (if lower since a builder would probably haul the crap to the dump themselves).

I think its too late to worry about what they might do later.

Personally I think fees for garbage based on volume are a good approach.  The dump's costs are based on volume, why shouldn't the customer's costs also be?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Thurnez Isa on July 03, 2009, 06:50:52 pm
you guys know that the technology to create energy from garbage by reacting raw materials to steam and water to produce a synthesis gas is just around the corner - and in many large metropolitan areas already here.
Process is actually kind of interesting... an exited state of decomposition produces a char, which reacts with steam to produce carbon monoxide and hydrogen, or C + H2O - H2 + CO
it reaches equilibrium, balancing carbon monoxide and steam with carbon dioxide and hydrogen
You add in a little bit of oxygen into the mix and the oxygen will burn, hence energy

So the process is sound.. there is two major problems. 1) it's still inefficient and 2) you have to shut down your reactor twice a year to clean it

but anyways the point is garbage is not as dire of a problem as the hippie lobby (especially here in Ontario, Im sure in the States they are bad too) make it out to be

If you want to come up with sound garbage policy a simple thing to do is not punish families for garbage but to just sit down some of the major fast food companies in what ever country and simple ask, "Is there way
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 03, 2009, 07:18:23 pm
I hate Libertarians because they're stupid.  In fact, politics is the stupidest form of primate behavior, and anarchy (which is what most "libertarians" think libertarianism was supposed to be) is the stupidest form of politics, the proof of which can be demonstrated by pointing out that it was invented by the French.

What libertarians fail to realize is that a non-regulated market isn't a "free market", it's a recipe for monopoly and domination by corporate powers (and to any dumbasses that think a corporation by definition cannot take away your liberty, I will simply point out the East India Company).  In fact, a "free market" is an impossibility.  Anyone who WANTS people like Halliburton to have MORE power is a dupe, and should probably refrain from having offspring.



Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Thurnez Isa on July 03, 2009, 07:27:19 pm
1) no "steam and water" eat in involved, but the burning is oxygen is added to the mix... without oxygen there is no burning
2) garbage is already separated by most landfills and deposited in different areas due to environmental concerns about contamination of ground water... most televisions do actually contain huge amounts of carbon due to them being made of plastic, though I am unaware if they are, or can be used in a gasification process... like I said the technology is there but not "there", at least in it be efficient enough.. but in a country like the US, which doesn't have enough water to produce enough hydro cheap, cleaner then coal, forms of energy unless they are willing and have the resources to invest in more nuclear plants
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 03, 2009, 07:29:05 pm
Sorry, I hadn't realized the topic had terminally drifted. 
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Thurnez Isa on July 03, 2009, 07:30:20 pm
Sorry, I hadn't realized the topic had terminally drifted. 

you could always keep arguing with the libertarians till you get bored and stop and they feel they "won"
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 03, 2009, 07:31:14 pm
Sorry, I hadn't realized the topic had terminally drifted. 

you could always keep arguing with the libertarians till you get bored and stop and they feel they "won"

Um, yeah, whatever.  I'm just pissed off that I wasted a few minutes bothering with a response.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Thurnez Isa on July 03, 2009, 07:32:38 pm
Sorry, I hadn't realized the topic had terminally drifted. 

you could always keep arguing with the libertarians till you get bored and stop and they feel they "won"

Um, yeah, whatever.  I'm just pissed off that I wasted a few minutes bothering with a response.

sorry about the thread jack then

im sure it will get back on topic
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 03, 2009, 07:38:25 pm
Sorry, I hadn't realized the topic had terminally drifted. 

you could always keep arguing with the libertarians till you get bored and stop and they feel they "won"

Um, yeah, whatever.  I'm just pissed off that I wasted a few minutes bothering with a response.

sorry about the thread jack then

im sure it will get back on topic


Who cares?  I'm done with it.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Roaring Biscuit! on July 03, 2009, 07:38:37 pm
Sorry, I hadn't realized the topic had terminally drifted. 

you could always keep arguing with the libertarians till you get bored and stop and they feel they "won"

Um, yeah, whatever.  I'm just pissed off that I wasted a few minutes bothering with a response.

just 'cause it was relevant to the "current" discussion in the thread doesn't mean it wasn't interesting.

As an aside, is it wrong to spout anarchist propoganda so i can get laughs from angry people?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Iason Ouabache on July 03, 2009, 07:55:31 pm
I hate Libertarians because they're stupid.  In fact, politics is the stupidest form of primate behavior, and anarchy (which is what most "libertarians" think libertarianism was supposed to be) is the stupidest form of politics, the proof of which can be demonstrated by pointing out that it was invented by the French.

What libertarians fail to realize is that a non-regulated market isn't a "free market", it's a recipe for monopoly and domination by corporate powers (and to any dumbasses that think a corporation by definition cannot take away your liberty, I will simply point out the East India Company).  In fact, a "free market" is an impossibility.  Anyone who WANTS people like Halliburton to have MORE power is a dupe, and should probably refrain from having offspring.
:mittens:  Libertarianism is just replacing policitician with CEOs. At least with the current system you can pretend to vote for the guys who hold the keys to your cage.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 03, 2009, 07:57:27 pm
Correction: At least under the current system you wont get mugged by Cain because welfare benefits were abolished, due to taxation being theft or something.

Because believe me, I would.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Thurnez Isa on July 03, 2009, 09:55:04 pm
Right now the appeal of Libertarianism seems a very selfish one to me (yes I know selfishness is almost a virtue in free market libertarianism and my opinion is not set right now) but it seems to me very much a "why should I have to pay taxes for other people" kind of argument

Simple, we live in a society that is made up of many individuals and the interactions between these individuals keep the society together.
The question probably shouldn't be how can we create a society where I can personally gain as how can we make a society that is both helpful and fair, and at the same time contains the most personal freedoms for those within it?

Some libertarian ideas maybe very good in creating a society, but adopting pretty much any political philosophy wholly historically only benefits those in which the philosophy targets as an audience, so it is nether fair not helpful. And there are a whole whack of individuals within the society in which libertarianism does not address realistically.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 03, 2009, 11:18:02 pm
Extreme Libertarianism is just retarded for all the reasons TGRR described. It basically means the first ape to get ahold of the heavy sharp rock that can break skulls on the beach wins forever and ever and ever until he dies and picks the next ape to give the rock to.

I don't believe in a completely unregulated market because there are some things we can ALL agree on: like not letting companies who are cutting corners/costs package food that might have accidentally gone bad before they cooked it. No, that's not a reasonable buyer beware/seller reputation thing. It's pretty absolute accross the board.

I also don't have a problem giving poor people free shit so they can get on their feet. I DO have a problem making a policy saying ALL people are REQUIRED to take the free shit and the people who don't want it are precisely the one who are required to pay for it later. I'd rather just pay for the people who NEED the free shit and leave me out of it please.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 04, 2009, 06:47:40 pm
Right now the appeal of Libertarianism seems a very selfish one to me (yes I know selfishness is almost a virtue in free market libertarianism and my opinion is not set right now)

And that is precisely why Libertarianism is as intellectually bankrupt as communism.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 04, 2009, 06:50:49 pm
Extreme Libertarianism is just retarded for all the reasons TGRR described.

Let's try this:

Extreme Communism is just retarded for all the reasons TGRR described.

They are essentially identical statements.  Neither system works, in whole or in part, because both require humans to act as something other than primates.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 09, 2009, 03:41:33 pm
All systems expect humans to behave differently than humans actually behave. None of them do a very good job. That's why I think the only sane choice is rational anarchism... personally removing yourself from the game rules of whatever idiotic non-functional system is in the works. That is, as long as the laws are not interfering with my life and lifestyle, I'll deal with them. Once they do interfere then I decide if the cost of breaking the law is worth the reward. It's TYFS writ large over top of any political affiliation. Sure, 90% of the monkeys are idiots and need the government to help them wipe, for fear that they'll fuck up and accidentally eat the toilet paper rather than using it to clean themselves. For those people, I hope the least harmful, most helpful government is installed. In fact, I will spend my vote to support whatever government seems the least authoritarian on the lives of the citizens. For now, that seems to be the Democrats (oddly enough). However, when that mommy/daddy government makes rules that get in my way, then its Katie Bar The Door because I'm not going to limit myself due to some fool in Washington and his lame ideas.

Its much like Cramulus' lovely Nopants parable. Bureaucracy is stopping for a red light in the middle of the night when no one is coming. However, if you're not careful, you'll run over a Discordian pushing a gong. The trick is that when it comes to breaking a law of the land, you must be cautious, you must examine the situation and then determine if you should proceed or not.  Arguing for a libertarian government or a progressive one or a conservative one, seems useless to me. The parties in power don't seem to understand their political philosophies, they don't seem adverse to corruption, gladhanding or cronyism and while some forms of government do appear to want to help people... the sheer morass of bureaucratic bullshit they are trapped in bring headache with every act.

I say back whatever political system seems most useful at the moment, because this moment is really all there is. It doesn't matter what the 'founding fathers' wanted... they didn't have the best grasp of reality and they certainly didn't plan for the US to be of the size and diversity that it is today. It doesn't matter what theoretical 'better' system might exist if only the politicians would do X... imaginary political parties are not on the ballot and the current political party may do something so stupid that there isn't a future ballot for the imaginary political party to be on.

Back the party that seems least bad, choose which laws you will and won't follow and live your life... its really the best we can hope for.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 09, 2009, 03:48:12 pm
But then it looks like you need to break down what "least authoritarian" means... fiscally or socially?

The Dems want to control the financial aspect pretty firmly.
The Reps want to control your moral values pretty firmly.


y'know what I mean?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 09, 2009, 03:53:34 pm
But then it looks like you need to break down what "least authoritarian" means... fiscally or socially?

The Dems want to control the financial aspect pretty firmly.
The Reps want to control your moral values pretty firmly.


y'know what I mean?

Aaaaand the problem with our two-party system of "checks and balances" is that the alternation between Republican and Democratic House domination is that we keep ratcheting up government control over BOTH in steps rather than preserving Liberty over either.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 09, 2009, 04:05:00 pm
But then it looks like you need to break down what "least authoritarian" means... fiscally or socially?

TYFS!

Quote
The Dems want to control the financial aspect pretty firmly.
The Reps want to control your moral values pretty firmly.


y'know what I mean?

So which do you find more compelling? Would you prefer to have a government that makes fiscal laws which you might have to break, or a government that makes moral laws which you may have to break? What do you think the government should have a say in, morals or money?

For me, personally, I think social and moral freedoms are far more important to society, than choosing your health coverage or paying higher taxes if you make $200,000 or more a year. So I voted Dem this past year. If, however, there was a sane conservative party, they wouldn't be pushing to control morals and I might vote that way.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 09, 2009, 04:18:52 pm
But then it looks like you need to break down what "least authoritarian" means... fiscally or socially?

TYFS!

Quote
The Dems want to control the financial aspect pretty firmly.
The Reps want to control your moral values pretty firmly.


y'know what I mean?

So which do you find more compelling? Would you prefer to have a government that makes fiscal laws which you might have to break, or a government that makes moral laws which you may have to break? What do you think the government should have a say in, morals or money?

For me, personally, I think social and moral freedoms are far more important to society, than choosing your health coverage or paying higher taxes if you make $200,000 or more a year. So I voted Dem this past year. If, however, there was a sane conservative party, they wouldn't be pushing to control morals and I might vote that way.

I struggle with this. I too believe moral/social freedom is priority, but I don't see voting Dem as a solution to that. The liberal/Dem morality agenda is a secular one, but it is a form of moral control all the same.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 09, 2009, 04:20:18 pm
Wait... are you talking about hate crime laws, now?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 09, 2009, 04:27:43 pm
But then it looks like you need to break down what "least authoritarian" means... fiscally or socially?

TYFS!

Quote
The Dems want to control the financial aspect pretty firmly.
The Reps want to control your moral values pretty firmly.


y'know what I mean?

So which do you find more compelling? Would you prefer to have a government that makes fiscal laws which you might have to break, or a government that makes moral laws which you may have to break? What do you think the government should have a say in, morals or money?

For me, personally, I think social and moral freedoms are far more important to society, than choosing your health coverage or paying higher taxes if you make $200,000 or more a year. So I voted Dem this past year. If, however, there was a sane conservative party, they wouldn't be pushing to control morals and I might vote that way.

I struggle with this. I too believe moral/social freedom is priority, but I don't see voting Dem as a solution to that. The liberal/Dem morality agenda is a secular one, but it is a form of moral control all the same.

How so?  Please elaborate. 
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 09, 2009, 04:37:31 pm
Wait... are you talking about hate crime laws, now?

No, not directly, but I suppose that fits into what I'm saying. I'm talking about the moral-based prioritization. The Democrats might be defending my freedom from religious ideals, but they're still the driving force behind forced social morality:
ex: 1. We must provide medical, housing etc to the poor, even if we have to take the money from rich people because that's what's righteous.
2. It doesn't matter if the Global Warming issue isn't conclusive; we need to restrict people's pollution/footprint because it's the Right Thing To Do/just in case--whether GWing is true or not.

I want to say here that many of these things make pretty good sense to me, but the fact that one agrees with them is of no consequence when determining whether or not they are values-based initiatives.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 09, 2009, 04:39:48 pm
What the fuck?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 09, 2009, 04:43:02 pm
What the fuck?

I beg pardon?

How is what I said coming across to you? I hope I explained that well...
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 09, 2009, 04:45:03 pm
I mean, was it confusing, or just outrageous somehow?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 09, 2009, 04:45:50 pm
Well, for one thing, if you extrapolate from that, it sounds like you think the 13th amendment was a bad idea.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 09, 2009, 04:51:49 pm
Absolutely not.

Quite the contrary: I think moral agenda is a constant, intrinsic part of good government but it's there all the same. It's inescapable, so the only option is to think for one's self.

Yes, I realize this blows a lot of libertarian beliefs out of the water. I never said I wouldn't contradict myself.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 09, 2009, 04:52:24 pm
Wait... are you talking about hate crime laws, now?

No, not directly, but I suppose that fits into what I'm saying. I'm talking about the moral-based prioritization. The Democrats might be defending my freedom from religious ideals, but they're still the driving force behind forced social morality:
ex: 1. We must provide medical, housing etc to the poor, even if we have to take the money from rich people because that's what's righteous.
2. It doesn't matter if the Global Warming issue isn't conclusive; we need to restrict people's pollution/footprint because it's the Right Thing To Do/just in case--whether GWing is true or not.
I want to say here that many of these things make pretty good sense to me, but the fact that one agrees with them is of no consequence when determining whether or not they are values-based initiatives.

It seems to be that both of these are for more based in the sciences (social and earth) than they are based in any kind of religion.  Sure, it may be that, in the end, one's religion says it is good to take care of people and the environment.  But, it is also that social science tells us a society with well-fed, healthy, and housed citizens is a healthier society.  
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 09, 2009, 04:52:53 pm
Wait... are you talking about hate crime laws, now?

No, not directly, but I suppose that fits into what I'm saying. I'm talking about the moral-based prioritization. The Democrats might be defending my freedom from religious ideals, but they're still the driving force behind forced social morality:
ex: 1. We must provide medical, housing etc to the poor, even if we have to take the money from rich people because that's what's righteous.
2. It doesn't matter if the Global Warming issue isn't conclusive; we need to restrict people's pollution/footprint because it's the Right Thing To Do/just in case--whether GWing is true or not.

I want to say here that many of these things make pretty good sense to me, but the fact that one agrees with them is of no consequence when determining whether or not they are values-based initiatives.

Do you consider species survival a "value"?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 09, 2009, 04:54:23 pm
Absolutely not.

Quite the contrary: I think moral agenda is a constant, intrinsic part of good government but it's there all the same. It's inescapable, so the only option is to think for one's self.

Yes, I realize this blows a lot of libertarian beliefs out of the water. I never said I wouldn't contradict myself.



But with such a sweeping definition of "moral agenda", any system you choose will have one.




Do you consider species survival a "value"?

Also, this.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 09, 2009, 04:56:14 pm
Hell; libertarianism itself is a moral agenda! It says: "I don't give a shit about what you think is fair, I'm telling you what is inalienably righteous is more important and we should make government decisions based on that universal morality rather than this, that or the other one."
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 09, 2009, 04:57:56 pm
Hold up.  You consider saying, "Option A is better than option B" to be a morally righteous position?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 09, 2009, 04:58:52 pm
Absolutely not.

Quite the contrary: I think moral agenda is a constant, intrinsic part of good government but it's there all the same. It's inescapable, so the only option is to think for one's self.

Yes, I realize this blows a lot of libertarian beliefs out of the water. I never said I wouldn't contradict myself.



But with such a sweeping definition of "moral agenda", any system you choose will have one.




Do you consider species survival a "value"?

Also, this.

Hah! you beat me to it!

Exactly. So I just do the best job I can thinking in terms against moral-based oppression of any sort while trying to find a perfect balance that factors in "Yeah, but these people shouldn't get anally raped in the free-stampede of Liberty either."
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 09, 2009, 04:59:23 pm
I get what you're saying navkat. Social morality vs Personal morality is the key differentiation here. For me, personal morality is more important to be completely private, whereas Social morality has to be decided at a social level. The federal government may not be the best place for most of the decisions about social morality, because they represent 51% + of the people in the social environment. A bit over half is not a good way to govern. I think, IF the states were responsible, they would be working most of these issues so that the Feds wouldn't have to. If every state adopted their own rules about emissions etc then we might not need the feds to poke at things.

I don't know if Global Warming is True, true in some sense, correlated data with confirmation bias or a secret plot to take over the world. I do know that its enough of an issue that many citizens expect "someone to do something". Sadly, the someone (in most cases) isn't them, and the something (in many cases) better not inconvenience them. So the feds step in and make random rules which get applied unevenly and smart companies find loopholes and life continues on.

However, IF I have to decide between a government that tries to impose social morality (what is right for us as a society?) and personal morality (what is right for you as a person), I'll probably accept outside influence in the social morality rather than the personal one. Even though, for me personally, none of the 'personal morality' issues really apply, while based on my income, I get hit harder by the social values.

I still choose to support freedom for the individual. For me that is what's paramount.

Well, for one thing, if you extrapolate from that, it sounds like you think the 13th amendment was a bad idea.

I disagree. Civil rights are individual rights, the thirteenth amendment simply confirms that All People should be treated equally. That's a basic tenant of the Constitution, which was expanded as humans figured out that vagina and skin color don't make you somehow not 'equal'.

That's a big difference from demanding that companies produces Cars like X or control emissions to standard Y.

Personally, I don't consider companies and corporations to be individuals and therefore 'Freedom' for corporations is not a constitutional right.


Do you consider species survival a "value"?

Our species will likely survive Global Warming... our social structure may not... but the humans likely will (or at least some of them).   :wink:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 09, 2009, 05:04:16 pm
Hold up.  You consider saying, "Option A is better than option B" to be a morally righteous position?

Er...no.

Well it depends on what you plug into option a or b.

What I'm saying is: for the MOST part, I consider Liberty the absolute zero point: running around like apes, doing whatever we want, taking, eating, fucking whatever we want.

"It's wrong to rape people" is morality.
"You can't just kill people or steal" is morality.

I don't want absolute zero. Nobody does. I'm saying that as a "libertarian," I'm not so daft or stubborn that I would exclude morality from the situation altogether, just that I realize it's there and try not to be suaded by just THAT. Nor do I truly fault anyone from injecting theirs into the situation, you follow?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 09, 2009, 05:05:29 pm
I get what you're saying navkat. Social morality vs Personal morality is the key differentiation here. For me, personal morality is more important to be completely private, whereas Social morality has to be decided at a social level. The federal government may not be the best place for most of the decisions about social morality, because they represent 51% + of the people in the social environment. A bit over half is not a good way to govern. I think, IF the states were responsible, they would be working most of these issues so that the Feds wouldn't have to. If every state adopted their own rules about emissions etc then we might not need the feds to poke at things.

I don't know if Global Warming is True, true in some sense, correlated data with confirmation bias or a secret plot to take over the world. I do know that its enough of an issue that many citizens expect "someone to do something". Sadly, the someone (in most cases) isn't them, and the something (in many cases) better not inconvenience them. So the feds step in and make random rules which get applied unevenly and smart companies find loopholes and life continues on.

However, IF I have to decide between a government that tries to impose social morality (what is right for us as a society?) and personal morality (what is right for you as a person), I'll probably accept outside influence in the social morality rather than the personal one. Even though, for me personally, none of the 'personal morality' issues really apply, while based on my income, I get hit harder by the social values.

I still choose to support freedom for the individual. For me that is what's paramount.

Well, for one thing, if you extrapolate from that, it sounds like you think the 13th amendment was a bad idea.

I disagree. Civil rights are individual rights, the thirteenth amendment simply confirms that All People should be treated equally. That's a basic tenant of the Constitution, which was expanded as humans figured out that vagina and skin color don't make you somehow not 'equal'.

That's a big difference from demanding that companies produces Cars like X or control emissions to standard Y.

Personally, I don't consider companies and corporations to be individuals and therefore 'Freedom' for corporations is not a constitutional right.


Do you consider species survival a "value"?

Our species will likely survive Global Warming... our social structure may not... but the humans likely will (or at least some of them).   :wink:

Thank you!

I didn't really know if I was coming across. I couldn't think of how to articulate myself.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 09, 2009, 05:06:02 pm
the thirteenth amendment simply confirms that All People should be treated equally.

But that's a morals-based value!
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 09, 2009, 05:07:38 pm
Hold up.  You consider saying, "Option A is better than option B" to be a morally righteous position?

Er...no.

Well it depends on what you plug into option a or b.

What I'm saying is: for the MOST part, I consider Liberty the absolute zero point: running around like apes, doing whatever we want, taking, eating, fucking whatever we want.

"It's wrong to rape people" is morality.
"You can't just kill people or steal" is morality.

I don't want absolute zero. Nobody does. I'm saying that as a "libertarian," I'm not so daft or stubborn that I would exclude morality from the situation altogether, just that I realize it's there and try not to be suaded by just THAT. Nor do I truly fault anyone from injecting theirs into the situation, you follow?


So, you don't mind moral values, you just want the right ones.  As according to...
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 09, 2009, 05:09:34 pm
the thirteenth amendment simply confirms that All People should be treated equally.

But that's a morals-based value!

Its a value based on the social contract in place. I don't think either Nav or I are arguing for complete anarchy. Thus there must be a social contract. The social contract says "All men are created equal" the 13th amendment simply confirms that All men = All people.

Now, that all of us are bound to a social contract that none of us, nor our parents, nor our grandparents etc agreed to... well thats beside the current points being discussed ;-)

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 09, 2009, 05:10:10 pm
Hold up.  You consider saying, "Option A is better than option B" to be a morally righteous position?

Er...no.

Well it depends on what you plug into option a or b.

What I'm saying is: for the MOST part, I consider Liberty the absolute zero point: running around like apes, doing whatever we want, taking, eating, fucking whatever we want.

"It's wrong to rape people" is morality.
"You can't just kill people or steal" is morality.

I don't want absolute zero. Nobody does. I'm saying that as a "libertarian," I'm not so daft or stubborn that I would exclude morality from the situation altogether, just that I realize it's there and try not to be suaded by just THAT. Nor do I truly fault anyone from injecting theirs into the situation, you follow?


So, you don't mind moral values, you just want the right ones.  As according to...

I want as few as possible without being the cause of a whole lot of people getting seriously ass-raped because of indecision/inaction.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 09, 2009, 05:12:13 pm
Hold up.  You consider saying, "Option A is better than option B" to be a morally righteous position?

Er...no.

Well it depends on what you plug into option a or b.

What I'm saying is: for the MOST part, I consider Liberty the absolute zero point: running around like apes, doing whatever we want, taking, eating, fucking whatever we want.

"It's wrong to rape people" is morality.
"You can't just kill people or steal" is morality.

I don't want absolute zero. Nobody does. I'm saying that as a "libertarian," I'm not so daft or stubborn that I would exclude morality from the situation altogether, just that I realize it's there and try not to be suaded by just THAT. Nor do I truly fault anyone from injecting theirs into the situation, you follow?


So, you don't mind moral values, you just want the right ones.  As according to...

I think its an issue of as few moral rules as necessary... rather than the ones I like. Also, there is a key difference, as I said, between personal and social morals.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 09, 2009, 05:18:23 pm
So, our social contract also says, "promote the general welfare".

I'm pretty sure the majority of politicians from both sides of the aisle would attest this to be their goal when they write new laws.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 09, 2009, 05:23:00 pm
Hold up.  You consider saying, "Option A is better than option B" to be a morally righteous position?

Er...no.

Well it depends on what you plug into option a or b.

What I'm saying is: for the MOST part, I consider Liberty the absolute zero point: running around like apes, doing whatever we want, taking, eating, fucking whatever we want.

"It's wrong to rape people" is morality.
"You can't just kill people or steal" is morality.

I don't want absolute zero. Nobody does. I'm saying that as a "libertarian," I'm not so daft or stubborn that I would exclude morality from the situation altogether, just that I realize it's there and try not to be suaded by just THAT. Nor do I truly fault anyone from injecting theirs into the situation, you follow?


So, you don't mind moral values, you just want the right ones.  As according to...

I want as few as possible without being the cause of a whole lot of people getting seriously ass-raped because of indecision/inaction.

How much income tax did you pay last year?  In absolute dollars?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 09, 2009, 05:27:44 pm
Hold up.  You consider saying, "Option A is better than option B" to be a morally righteous position?

Er...no.

Well it depends on what you plug into option a or b.

What I'm saying is: for the MOST part, I consider Liberty the absolute zero point: running around like apes, doing whatever we want, taking, eating, fucking whatever we want.

"It's wrong to rape people" is morality.
"You can't just kill people or steal" is morality.

I don't want absolute zero. Nobody does. I'm saying that as a "libertarian," I'm not so daft or stubborn that I would exclude morality from the situation altogether, just that I realize it's there and try not to be suaded by just THAT. Nor do I truly fault anyone from injecting theirs into the situation, you follow?


So, you don't mind moral values, you just want the right ones.  As according to...

I want as few as possible without being the cause of a whole lot of people getting seriously ass-raped because of indecision/inaction.

How much income tax did you pay last year?  In absolute dollars?

I feel uncomfortable answering that in a public forum.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 09, 2009, 05:34:42 pm
So, our social contract also says, "promote the general welfare".

I'm pretty sure the majority of politicians from both sides of the aisle would attest this to be their goal when they write new laws.

As long as general welfare doesn't impede personal choice, I'm fine with it. Social morals must be decided by society. Our society makes the decision by electing people that claim to see social morals in one way or another. The way I see it, then, social morals should define morals when interacting directly with other humans in a social group. "It is illegal to smoke in a public building" seems like a social moral. "It is illegal to smoke." though, seems like a personal choice that a social group is trying to enforce. The former is acceptable, the latter is not.

Corporations are not persons. They are a social contract between employer, employee, customer and supplier. Therefore, they fall under social morality and I have no issue with the government having standards for that social contract. However, I would not support the government making a ruling that homosexuals cannot own a corporation, because the homosexuality is a personal moral decision, not a social one.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 09, 2009, 05:36:15 pm
Y'know, it's more fun arguing with navkat.  Just saying.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 09, 2009, 05:38:16 pm
So, our social contract also says, "promote the general welfare".

I'm pretty sure the majority of politicians from both sides of the aisle would attest this to be their goal when they write new laws.

As long as general welfare doesn't impede personal choice, I'm fine with it. Social morals must be decided by society. Our society makes the decision by electing people that claim to see social morals in one way or another. The way I see it, then, social morals should define morals when interacting directly with other humans in a social group. "It is illegal to smoke in a public building" seems like a social moral. "It is illegal to smoke." though, seems like a personal choice that a social group is trying to enforce. The former is acceptable, the latter is not.

Corporations are not persons. They are a social contract between employer, employee, customer and supplier. Therefore, they fall under social morality and I have no issue with the government having standards for that social contract. However, I would not support the government making a ruling that homosexuals cannot own a corporation, because the homosexuality is a personal moral decision, not a social one.



Again; well put.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 09, 2009, 05:39:18 pm
Y'know, it's more fun arguing with navkat.  Just saying.

IT'S NOT MY FAULT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT A BREAKBEAT IS.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 09, 2009, 05:41:27 pm
Y'know, it's more fun arguing with navkat.  Just saying.

IT'S NOT MY FAULT YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT A BREAKBEAT IS.

ilubb
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 09, 2009, 05:46:13 pm
Y'know, it's more fun arguing with navkat.  Just saying.

More fun for you maybe ;-)
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 09, 2009, 05:53:25 pm
DON'T IMPOSE YOUR MORAL RIGHTEOUSNESS ON ME!
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cramulus on July 10, 2009, 02:18:20 am
(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/discordman/bin/RAPBATTLE.jpg)

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a95/discordman/bin/rapbattlesf22.jpg)

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Kai on July 10, 2009, 02:16:59 pm
I don't know, it just seems like as a social species that live in large congregations and depend highly on each other for our daily needs, that a system where we help each other will benefit everyone rather than pretending we're all our own little separate isolated tribes with nothing but self reliance to save us (while hypocritically drinking our starbucks coffee every morning and eating beef from argentina and rice from china for dinner and chocolate from east africa afterwards).
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 10, 2009, 02:19:44 pm
What Kai said.


I find the issue of compassion to be in a grey area between "moral" and "biological survival skill".  Just because it's a staple of almost every religion on the planet doesn't mean it's not actually hardwired into our brains.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Kai on July 10, 2009, 02:28:19 pm
What Kai said.


I find the issue of compassion to be in a grey area between "moral" and "biological survival skill".  Just because it's a staple of almost every religion on the planet doesn't mean it's not actually hardwired into our brains.

Loyal Rue would say that the reason its a part of every religion is /because/ its hardwired into our brains, as religion is an evolutionary prescription for individual wholeness and social cohesion, things that are needed by organisms which are conscious, both social and personal.

Then you notice what eventually happens to groups which don't provide for a social cohesive force and isolate themselves; they end up falling apart eventually, failing through social entropy, lack of input from the outside and inability to change with the changing environment.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 10, 2009, 02:29:59 pm
Indeed, I think that it IS in almost every religion IS evidence that it is naturally hardwired into our brain to some degree. 

Kai beat me to it and said it much more eloquently. 
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Requia ☣ on July 10, 2009, 02:31:30 pm
Indeed, I think that it IS in almost every religion IS evidence that it is naturally hardwired into our brain to some degree. 

Kai beat me to it and said it much more eloquently. 

Kai does that a lot.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Kai on July 10, 2009, 02:33:04 pm
 :oops: Thank you.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 10, 2009, 02:35:51 pm
To be honest I was leaning that way too, I was just trying to be clever.

You know, the whole "arbitrary game rules imposed by religious authority" vs. "built into the human nervous system after millions of years of evolution" thing.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 10, 2009, 02:36:52 pm
I don't know, it just seems like as a social species that live in large congregations and depend highly on each other for our daily needs, that a system where we help each other will benefit everyone rather than pretending we're all our own little separate isolated tribes with nothing but self reliance to save us (while hypocritically drinking our starbucks coffee every morning and eating beef from argentina and rice from china for dinner and chocolate from east africa afterwards).

I agree completely with what you say here Kai... with two caveats.

First, while we depend highly on each other, we MUST be able to depend on ourselves as well. When a disaster hits us, the only person we can be sure will be there... is us. Look at NOLA a few years ago... the cops saved themselves and their family, the city and state governments failed. The federal government failed. People who had been warned for years that a Cat 5 storm would flood their neighborhood... and most didn't have any bottled water, canned food, or even the most remote bit of a plan of what to do if the shit hit the fan. One of my close friends ran a charity group here in Columbus to assist many of the people displaced by the event and I got to help out a lot. So I got to talk to a lot of the people living here that went through it. In almost every case the comment was "Well, we expected that the government would have us covered" or some variation of that with a heavy drawl ;-) While we are social animals, we must also be animals that are capable of survival on our own when necessary.

Second, I think there is an extreme difference between being social animals that work together, rely on each other and assist each other... and a system that demands involuntary acquiescence to whatever nonsense 51% of some spags in Washington DC happened to think was a good idea.

Unlike most 'Libertarians' I don't think we all should live on our own and be completely self-sufficient. Such an idea doesn't take into account that we have millions of people that simply could not be self-sufficient, no matter how much they would like. However, I do think that our interactions should be based on social agreements that living people can sign onto... not a social contract signed by a bunch of guys in the 1700's. It's not working together that I see a problem with. Its being forced to work together in a way defined by someone else as best, with no real say in the matter myself, that I have an issue with.

We are social animals and live in social groups, but, in my opinion, before we are social animals we are individuals and should be able to determine our lives and futures for ourselves. Part of those decisions surely involve HOW we will act socially, how we will support our social groups... but self-determination, to me, should be the first step.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Kai on July 10, 2009, 03:55:17 pm
Ratatosk, at this point people often don't really recognize how connected we all are, OR they subconsciously believe it and take it for granted and disaster happens (as you said above). So, the first step is conscious recognition aka awareness of the social world that binds us all together as a species, because when you're aware of it obviously you recognize it but its also harder to subconsciously "take it for granted" (abuse it or misinterpret it). What you just said.

I know this is expecting way too much of semi-conscious Homininae.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Kai on July 10, 2009, 03:58:40 pm
To be honest I was leaning that way too, I was just trying to be clever.

You know, the whole "arbitrary game rules imposed by religious authority" vs. "built into the human nervous system after millions of years of evolution" thing.

I'm sorry. Sometimes I think and I just feel like I have to talk.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 10, 2009, 04:00:17 pm
No worries.  Just wanted to let you know we're on the same page.

You were just more eloquent than me, is all.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 04:42:15 pm
Back on topic, I can't be a Discordian, because I don't believe that the poor should be left to starve to death in alleys.

 :lulz:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 04:42:56 pm
Hold up.  You consider saying, "Option A is better than option B" to be a morally righteous position?

Er...no.

Well it depends on what you plug into option a or b.

What I'm saying is: for the MOST part, I consider Liberty the absolute zero point: running around like apes, doing whatever we want, taking, eating, fucking whatever we want.

"It's wrong to rape people" is morality.
"You can't just kill people or steal" is morality.

I don't want absolute zero. Nobody does. I'm saying that as a "libertarian," I'm not so daft or stubborn that I would exclude morality from the situation altogether, just that I realize it's there and try not to be suaded by just THAT. Nor do I truly fault anyone from injecting theirs into the situation, you follow?


So, you don't mind moral values, you just want the right ones.  As according to...

I want as few as possible without being the cause of a whole lot of people getting seriously ass-raped because of indecision/inaction.

How much income tax did you pay last year?  In absolute dollars?

I feel uncomfortable answering that in a public forum.

Okay, then I just stopped listening to arguments about taxation.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 10, 2009, 04:45:23 pm
Can I play?


I overpaid my taxes during the year, so I got a refund in April.

I suppose that means I paid my tax bracket exactly.  Since I'm married, and it's combined income, that puts us in the 26% bracket.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 04:47:23 pm
Can I play?


I overpaid my taxes during the year, so I got a refund in April.

I suppose that means I paid my tax bracket exactly.  Since I'm married, and it's combined income, that puts us in the 26% bracket.



Yeah, so what was your actual net tax burden?  Betcha it wound up being a hell of a lot less than 26% of your combined yearly income.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Thurnez Isa on July 10, 2009, 04:50:00 pm
I didn't pay any tax last year :)
not a penny!
Mostly due to not working in the summer and claiming my tuition, and books for school this year
and since I was a private teacher I didn't pay income tax throughout the year
in fact I ended up getting 300 dollars back of tax i didn't even pay
SCORE!





Didn't pay tax the year before either due to be being part private in "the arts section" and being unionized  :)
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 10, 2009, 04:53:19 pm
Can I play?


I overpaid my taxes during the year, so I got a refund in April.

I suppose that means I paid my tax bracket exactly.  Since I'm married, and it's combined income, that puts us in the 26% bracket.



Yeah, so what was your actual net tax burden?  Betcha it wound up being a hell of a lot less than 26% of your combined yearly income.


Ok, you lost me.  I guess I have to add up my payroll taxes, condo tax, excise tax, etc, right?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 04:58:51 pm
Can I play?


I overpaid my taxes during the year, so I got a refund in April.

I suppose that means I paid my tax bracket exactly.  Since I'm married, and it's combined income, that puts us in the 26% bracket.



Yeah, so what was your actual net tax burden?  Betcha it wound up being a hell of a lot less than 26% of your combined yearly income.


Ok, you lost me.  I guess I have to add up my payroll taxes, condo tax, excise tax, etc, right?

No.

Your income tax burden.  It's the net amount after all payments, then credits for children, marriage, medical, etc.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 10, 2009, 05:00:11 pm
I pay about 28% since I'm single. They take out about 33% so I don't have to pay at the end of the year... 28% is a pretty decent chunk and based on the extra work I'm doing I'll probably get no refund this year.

At the end of the day, I don't mind paying taxes. I do, however, dislike having no control over where those taxes go.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 10, 2009, 05:00:50 pm
Can I play?


I overpaid my taxes during the year, so I got a refund in April.

I suppose that means I paid my tax bracket exactly.  Since I'm married, and it's combined income, that puts us in the 26% bracket.



Yeah, so what was your actual net tax burden?  Betcha it wound up being a hell of a lot less than 26% of your combined yearly income.


Ok, you lost me.  I guess I have to add up my payroll taxes, condo tax, excise tax, etc, right?

No.

Your income tax burden.  It's the net amount after all payments, then credits for children, marriage, medical, etc.

Oh, you mean after I try to weasel out of paying taxes with deductions, credits, donations, and the like?


Yeah, I see what you mean.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 05:01:22 pm
I pay about 28% since I'm single. They take out about 33% so I don't have to pay at the end of the year... 28% is a pretty decent chunk and based on the extra work I'm doing I'll probably get no refund this year.

At the end of the day, I don't mind paying taxes. I do, however, dislike having no control over where those taxes go.

Then you're going to have to propose an entirely different form of government.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 05:02:16 pm
Can I play?


I overpaid my taxes during the year, so I got a refund in April.

I suppose that means I paid my tax bracket exactly.  Since I'm married, and it's combined income, that puts us in the 26% bracket.



Yeah, so what was your actual net tax burden?  Betcha it wound up being a hell of a lot less than 26% of your combined yearly income.


Ok, you lost me.  I guess I have to add up my payroll taxes, condo tax, excise tax, etc, right?

No.

Your income tax burden.  It's the net amount after all payments, then credits for children, marriage, medical, etc.

Oh, you mean after I try to weasel out of paying taxes with deductions, credits, donations, and the like?


Yeah, I see what you mean.

Where's the weaseling?  I have 4 dependents, and that eats the crap out of my pay.  Should I be paying the same tax rate as someone who has no dependents?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 10, 2009, 05:06:06 pm
I don't know what my exact tax burden is percentage wise, but I do know it isn't any amount that causes me any kind of restrictions on how I live my life.  And I kind of like my nice smooth ride on the highways anyway.  And also, I have more money in my paycheck now thanks to Obama reducing the tax burden on my income.  I don't remember that happening under Mr. Bush.  It's hard for me to complain really. 
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 10, 2009, 05:06:55 pm


Where's the weaseling?  I have 4 dependents, and that eats the crap out of my pay.  Should I be paying the same tax rate as someone who has no dependents?

I was joking.  

If it's in the tax rules, it's fair play.  

Yeah, I save my reciepts from when I donate to goodwill, and I look for things that will reduce how much I have to pay.  I don't go so far as offshore tax shelters, though.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Thurnez Isa on July 10, 2009, 05:09:32 pm
I don't know what my exact tax burden is percentage wise, but I do know it isn't any amount that causes me any kind of restrictions on how I live my life.  And I kind of like my nice smooth ride on the highways anyway.  And also, I have more money in my paycheck now thanks to Obama reducing the tax burden on my income.  I don't remember that happening under Mr. Bush.  It's hard for me to complain really. 

can you imagine how smooth those highways would be if your government would stop giving huge amounts of money to large corporations and defense contracts which make weapons that are all but useless in modern strife
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 10, 2009, 05:10:38 pm
I pay about 28% since I'm single. They take out about 33% so I don't have to pay at the end of the year... 28% is a pretty decent chunk and based on the extra work I'm doing I'll probably get no refund this year.

At the end of the day, I don't mind paying taxes. I do, however, dislike having no control over where those taxes go.

Then you're going to have to propose an entirely different form of government.

Maybe... Remember, the existing government wasn't designed to deal in taxes to the extent it is now. In fact, the original intent was that income was NOT taxable. Only under Lincoln, during the war was income first taxed and that was supposed to be temporary.

Personally, I would prefer a series of categories or something similar as part of the tax system. That way the individuals can assign their taxes to the categories they support. Idiotic pork projects would simply never get funding (I would hope) and other projects would get funding based on the number of citizens that supported the category that project was in.

From a tax standpoint, the only issue I have is that so much of the money is wasted on crap. If the People had some say in where their money was to be used, it would be much better, IMO.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 05:12:26 pm
Maybe... Remember, the existing government wasn't designed to deal in taxes to the extent it is now. In fact, the original intent was that income was NOT taxable.

What, article I, sec 8, clause 1 was just added last week?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 10, 2009, 05:12:35 pm
They do have a say.  They vote out the ass-bags who waste money.  
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 05:17:07 pm
They do have a say.  They vote out the ass-bags who waste money.  

I think his argument is that the same people who drive television ratings should be allowed to determine where federal money goes.

Take heart, Bill O'Reilly fans!  Your day is coming!
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 10, 2009, 05:17:59 pm
Maybe... Remember, the existing government wasn't designed to deal in taxes to the extent it is now. In fact, the original intent was that income was NOT taxable.

What, article I, sec 8, clause 1 was just added last week?

Taxes on INCOME (note key word) were NOT in Article 1 Sec 8. The Income tax was created as part of Article 16 in the early 1900's. Before that Lincoln just forced the issue through via the Revenues Act during the Civil War. That got repealed, later the Federal government made a flat income tax which was ruled unconstitutional. The 16th Amendment was in response to that, and since then we've had our income taxed.

Before that, we had taxes on goods, imports and property, not on income.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 10, 2009, 05:18:58 pm
They do have a say.  They vote out the ass-bags who waste money.  

Uhhhh, what country do you live in? Cause the country I live in seems to focus a lot more on the letter after the name, than on the actual skills/values/etc of the person.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 10, 2009, 05:19:20 pm
They do have a say.  They vote out the ass-bags who waste money.  

I think his argument is that the same people who drive television ratings should be allowed to determine where federal money goes.

Take heart, Bill O'Reilly fans!  Your day is coming!

Yeah, I can see it now.  

"Hey everyone, Ryan Seacrest here, it's time to vote on the Ominus Spending Bill!  To vote Aye send your text to..."



Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 10, 2009, 05:20:00 pm
They do have a say.  They vote out the ass-bags who waste money.  

Uhhhh, what country do you live in? Cause the country I live in seems to focus a lot more on the letter after the name, than on the actual skills/values/etc of the person.

And you expect them somehow to be able to focus on a 125 page spending bill? 
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 05:24:25 pm
Taxes on INCOME (note key word) were NOT in Article 1 Sec 8.

Article I, sec 8 allows any taxes for any reason on any funds or income, provided any taxes have the same rate schedule for all 50 states.

Quote
Section 8
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and
Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general
Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be
uniform throughout the United States;


That includes income.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 05:25:21 pm
They do have a say.  They vote out the ass-bags who waste money.  

Uhhhh, what country do you live in? Cause the country I live in seems to focus a lot more on the letter after the name, than on the actual skills/values/etc of the person.

And you expect them somehow to be able to focus on a 125 page spending bill? 

Mind the gap.

 :lulz:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 10, 2009, 05:27:19 pm
Here's the thing. Out of 100% of the voting public, maybe 20% actually think before they press the button. (Numbers straight from my ass). Now, that 20% aren't gonna be able to outvote stupid.

However, if 100% of the public are given the option of specifying where their funds go... maybe only 20% would choose to itemize their funding. That 20% won't bee able to stop ALL bad projects, but they would be able to feel better about their taxes not being wasted, or them having no say.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 05:28:24 pm
Here's the thing. Out of 100% of the voting public, maybe 20% actually think before they press the button. (Numbers straight from my ass). Now, that 20% aren't gonna be able to outvote stupid.

However, if 100% of the public are given the option of specifying where their funds go... maybe only 20% would choose to itemize their funding. That 20% won't bee able to stop ALL bad projects, but they would be able to feel better about their taxes not being wasted, or them having no say.

The other 80% will do whatever Bill O'Reilly or Keith Olberman tell them.

Government by demagogue.  Outfuckingstanding.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 05:28:55 pm
It might destroy the country, but at least we'll feel "empowered".   :lulz:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 10, 2009, 05:30:44 pm
If our country requires 100 idiots to make our decisions for us... then it should be destroyed.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 05:34:24 pm
If our country requires 100 idiots to make our decisions for us... then it should be destroyed.

All spending bills (including taxes) start in the house, which has 435 members.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 10, 2009, 05:36:06 pm
If our country requires 100 idiots to make our decisions for us... then it should be destroyed.

All spending bills (including taxes) start in the house, which has 435 members.

Whoo Hoo 435 more idiots... except these guys tend to be more crazy, partisan, manipulated and whacko than the Senate.

Makes me feel much more comfortable in how our money is being spent.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 05:37:06 pm
If our country requires 100 idiots to make our decisions for us... then it should be destroyed.

All spending bills (including taxes) start in the house, which has 435 members.

Whoo Hoo 435 more idiots... except these guys tend to be more crazy, partisan, manipulated and whacko than the Senate.

Makes me feel much more comfortable in how our money is being spent.

Welcome to the republic.  Please keep your arms and legs inside the car at all times. 
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 10, 2009, 05:40:09 pm
If our country requires 100 idiots to make our decisions for us... then it should be destroyed.

All spending bills (including taxes) start in the house, which has 435 members.

Whoo Hoo 435 more idiots... except these guys tend to be more crazy, partisan, manipulated and whacko than the Senate.

Makes me feel much more comfortable in how our money is being spent.

Then what does that say about the 100 million or so of us who put them there?  I don't want any idiot who thinks Michele Bachmann is qualified to be a Congresswoman anywhere near a piece of legislation. 
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 05:40:56 pm
If our country requires 100 idiots to make our decisions for us... then it should be destroyed.

All spending bills (including taxes) start in the house, which has 435 members.

Whoo Hoo 435 more idiots... except these guys tend to be more crazy, partisan, manipulated and whacko than the Senate.

Makes me feel much more comfortable in how our money is being spent.

Then what does that say about the 100 million or so of us who put them there?  I don't want any idiot who thinks Michele Bachmann is qualified to be a Congresswoman anywhere near a piece of legislation. 


I want the people that elected Harry Reid to do it!  UNNNNNNNNNNG!
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 10, 2009, 05:41:57 pm
Yeah, them too. 
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Kai on July 10, 2009, 05:52:42 pm
If our country requires 100 idiots to make our decisions for us... then it should be destroyed.

All spending bills (including taxes) start in the house, which has 435 members.

Whoo Hoo 435 more idiots... except these guys tend to be more crazy, partisan, manipulated and whacko than the Senate.

Makes me feel much more comfortable in how our money is being spent.

Do you have a better idea that will actually work?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 05:54:04 pm
I say, let's let the average dumbfuck decide the fate of the NEA and NES.

TGRR,
All guns, no butter.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Kai on July 10, 2009, 06:00:55 pm
Let me clarify Ratatosk. Obviously you think that a republican system of government is fatally flawed in some way. I'm personally under the impression that for the size of population in this country and the diversity of opinions and levels of education, a republican system is the best thing we can manage at the moment as flawed as it may be. If you think there is a better system that would work for our current conditions, I'd like to hear it.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 10, 2009, 06:12:27 pm
If our country requires 100 idiots to make our decisions for us... then it should be destroyed.

All spending bills (including taxes) start in the house, which has 435 members.

Whoo Hoo 435 more idiots... except these guys tend to be more crazy, partisan, manipulated and whacko than the Senate.

Makes me feel much more comfortable in how our money is being spent.

Do you have a better idea that will actually work?

Well I think there are several opportunities to improve the current system. One idea, as I stated earlier is to let citizens have some self-determination in how their taxes are spent. Another option, now that its possible, is to have some sort of interactive solution between the representative and the constituents, where the representative can see in real time (as can the constituents) how the people being represented feel about the issue being voted on and then people could see if their representative was really listening to his people, doing whatever he wanted or maybe voting in line with some back room deal rather than in line with the people he represents.

Any system which provides more input from the populace, more accountability to the representative etc. would be fantastic.

Let me clarify Ratatosk. Obviously you think that a republican system of government is fatally flawed in some way. I'm personally under the impression that for the size of population in this country and the diversity of opinions and levels of education, a republican system is the best thing we can manage at the moment as flawed as it may be. If you think there is a better system that would work for our current conditions, I'd like to hear it.

I think a republican system could work, if most of the issues were dealt with at a state level and the Republic only dealt with serious issues of national impact... rather than Terri Schivo's feeding tube, marijuana usage by cancer patients etc. IF the republic tried to govern as little as possible, mostly acting to step in when a State couldn't find a solution, or when someone's civil/human rights are being violated... then I think it would be great.

However, thats not what we have today. What we have today is a House/Senate that would love to have their fingers in every pie and do so at any opportunity.

If MOST issues were handled at a State level, if MOST taxes were paid at a State level  then I think individuals would have a lot more say in how money gets spent, in how issues get settled and overall more control of their own government.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Kai on July 10, 2009, 06:21:17 pm
I don't know if the house and senate are the biggest problems really. Somehow I feel like the executive branch, not the POTUS directly, but all the executive organizations underneath, is a bigger issue. Theres only so much that congress can do (ie produce legislation). The follow through is up to the executive bureaus and associated organizations.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 10, 2009, 06:24:11 pm
One of the fundamental issues is that you have a bunch of citizens who want to live together as one, in happy harmony, and take care of one another.

Then you have a bunch of citizens who want to live in the middle of the woods and be left alone.

Some one has to be an arbiter to bridge those two, sizable and substantial camps. 

If you simply left it to the citizens, you might have even more gridlock than you already have. 
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 10, 2009, 06:47:03 pm
I don't know if the house and senate are the biggest problems really. Somehow I feel like the executive branch, not the POTUS directly, but all the executive organizations underneath, is a bigger issue. Theres only so much that congress can do (ie produce legislation). The follow through is up to the executive bureaus and associated organizations.

Well, overall I think the whole Federal government needs deconstructed and rebuilt. Not rebuilt as in start all over, but maybe 'reset' would be a better term. In the past 200+ years we've come a long way on some issues. We have fairer laws now than before, we understand that skin color and sexual organs are not pertinent when considering who should vote/have rights etc. all of that we can keep. Everything else should be reviewed. I think every law should be reexamined, and (IMO) every law should have a sunset period, so that we as a nation have to revisit it and determine if its still applicable, fair, useful or not.

If the government were trim, tried to behave responsibly, looked for what is best for citizens... I would be a huge supporter. But, just as libertarian philosophy doesn't account for how humans really behave, our current system doesn't account for how people in positions of power will really behave.

In my imaginary perfect system:

1. No elected official can serve more than 12 years.
2. Elected Officials will be paid the National Average Income. (Hotels, Cars, etc for business purposes can be expensed)
3. Any conviction of corruption with an elected official carries a mandatory Federal sentence.
4. Corporations cannot give money to candidates. Only individuals or non-profit groups can donate to a candidate.
5.  Lobbyists do not exist. Individuals and groups can speak with their representatives, try to promote their cause etc... but no commercial/professional lobbying groups at all. At best, maybe a non-profit sort of group that can educate individuals on how to promote their cause to political figures.

Laws:

1. Laws sunset unless they are reconsidered and pass.
2. Jury Nullification is taught in schools and juries are appraised of their rights before sitting on a case.
3. Unless the law relates to Interstate Commerce, National Defense, Civil/Human Rights, State Laws trump Federal Laws.
4. Federal money can be withheld from a State (based on #3) but only in related areas... If a state doesn't want to arrest stoners, then the Feds could withhold money set aside for Drug rehabilitation. They could not, however withhold money for roads or schools.


I think these ideas would make our system much less broken... not perfect, not completely free, not even guaranteed 100% satisfaction or your money back... just less broken than now.


One of the fundamental issues is that you have a bunch of citizens who want to live together as one, in happy harmony, and take care of one another.

Then you have a bunch of citizens who want to live in the middle of the woods and be left alone.

Some one has to be an arbiter to bridge those two, sizable and substantial camps. 

If you simply left it to the citizens, you might have even more gridlock than you already have. 

See, that's where we disagree.... IMO, the bunch of citizens should work and live together and be responsible as a social entity. The people in the woods that want to be left alone, should live in the woods and be left alone. People actively involved in a social system should be more responsible for that system, than someone who is not part of that social system. Obviously, all of us are part of a large social group (the nation) and even the loaners should help support that (they use roads and cops etc). But, beyond the basics, I think people should pay for what they use, or choose.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 06:47:54 pm

Well, overall I think the whole Federal government needs deconstructed and rebuilt. Not rebuilt as in start all over, but maybe 'reset' would be a better term.

Why?  The same problems would instantly reappear, because the problem isn't with the government.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 10, 2009, 06:53:14 pm

Well, overall I think the whole Federal government needs deconstructed and rebuilt. Not rebuilt as in start all over, but maybe 'reset' would be a better term.

Why?  The same problems would instantly reappear, because the problem isn't with the government.

No, but after 200+ years of experiences, we might be able to finesse things a bit and at least get rid of some of the problems... other would appear, some old ones would still be around. But, that doesn't mean we shouldn't fix what we can.

Most Americans aren't driving a Model-T, most aren't driving a car from before the 80's and probably the majority are driving cars less than 20 years old.

Most Americans aren't using DOS, Windows 3.1, GEOS, or NextStep... they're using Windows XP, Vista, Linux or MacOS X.

Most Americans don't cook over an open fire for three meals a day. Most Americans don't have an Ice House, or Ice Box.

Yet, all Americans are still using a system that's 200+ years old and been patched repeatedly. A rework, rebuild, reinstall seems entirely reasonable to me.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 10, 2009, 06:55:37 pm
One of the fundamental issues is that you have a bunch of citizens who want to live together as one, in happy harmony, and take care of one another.

Then you have a bunch of citizens who want to live in the middle of the woods and be left alone.

Some one has to be an arbiter to bridge those two, sizable and substantial camps. 

If you simply left it to the citizens, you might have even more gridlock than you already have. 

See, that's where we disagree.... IMO, the bunch of citizens should work and live together and be responsible as a social entity. The people in the woods that want to be left alone, should live in the woods and be left alone. People actively involved in a social system should be more responsible for that system, than someone who is not part of that social system. Obviously, all of us are part of a large social group (the nation) and even the loaners should help support that (they use roads and cops etc). But, beyond the basics, I think people should pay for what they use, or choose.


So, a drug abuser, before becoming a drug abuser, opts out of his taxes going towards services, such as mine, that help people who need drug treatment but don't have money to pay for it.  When he needs treatment, but doesn't have the money...then what?  
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Kai on July 10, 2009, 06:59:59 pm

Well, overall I think the whole Federal government needs deconstructed and rebuilt. Not rebuilt as in start all over, but maybe 'reset' would be a better term.

Why?  The same problems would instantly reappear, because the problem isn't with the government.

No, but after 200+ years of experiences, we might be able to finesse things a bit and at least get rid of some of the problems... other would appear, some old ones would still be around. But, that doesn't mean we shouldn't fix what we can.

Most Americans aren't driving a Model-T, most aren't driving a car from before the 80's and probably the majority are driving cars less than 20 years old.

Most Americans aren't using DOS, Windows 3.1, GEOS, or NextStep... they're using Windows XP, Vista, Linux or MacOS X.

Most Americans don't cook over an open fire for three meals a day. Most Americans don't have an Ice House, or Ice Box.

Yet, all Americans are still using a system that's 200+ years old and been patched repeatedly. A rework, rebuild, reinstall seems entirely reasonable to me.

All those things are comforts you can convince people to buy, and make a lot of money for the people who are selling them.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 07:01:03 pm

See, that's where we disagree.... IMO, the bunch of citizens should work and live together and be responsible as a social entity. The people in the woods that want to be left alone, should live in the woods and be left alone. People actively involved in a social system should be more responsible for that system, than someone who is not part of that social system. Obviously, all of us are part of a large social group (the nation) and even the loaners should help support that (they use roads and cops etc). But, beyond the basics, I think people should pay for what they use, or choose.



Translation:  The rich get the benefit of services, the poor die.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 10, 2009, 07:06:08 pm
One more thing Rat:

You said "I think people should pay for what they use, or choose."

If that was the setup, you do realize a lot of people would choose to opt out of what they in fact use, right? 
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 10, 2009, 07:06:34 pm
Since employers benefit from a healthy, educated workforce, good transit links, a fair judicial system, a powerful police force etc (at least in the sense they profit from the current system), that would suggest they should in fact be paying a fair bit into it.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 07:10:25 pm
Just the fucking accounting would cost more than you'd save.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 10, 2009, 07:12:46 pm
Well, yes.

Thats why I think progressive taxation is generally the way to go.  Hell, even Adam Smith made a decent case for that (of course, Smith was down with a lot of things modern libertarianism likes to gloss over, or pretend never happened.  Which makes The Wealth of Nations great trolling material.  Just quote it as something by Marx and watch them howl in fury).
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 07:18:53 pm
Well, yes.

Thats why I think progressive taxation is generally the way to go.  Hell, even Adam Smith made a decent case for that (of course, Smith was down with a lot of things modern libertarianism likes to gloss over, or pretend never happened.  Which makes The Wealth of Nations great trolling material.  Just quote it as something by Marx and watch them howl in fury).

Adam Smith is about the single most misquoted person in history.  I managed to plough through Wealth of Nations, and it bears precisely zero resemblance to what the libertarians portray it as.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 10, 2009, 07:26:25 pm

See, that's where we disagree.... IMO, the bunch of citizens should work and live together and be responsible as a social entity. The people in the woods that want to be left alone, should live in the woods and be left alone. People actively involved in a social system should be more responsible for that system, than someone who is not part of that social system. Obviously, all of us are part of a large social group (the nation) and even the loaners should help support that (they use roads and cops etc). But, beyond the basics, I think people should pay for what they use, or choose.



Translation:  The rich get the benefit of services, the poor die.



That bears no resemblance to what I just said. But whatever.

One more thing Rat:

You said "I think people should pay for what they use, or choose."

If that was the setup, you do realize a lot of people would choose to opt out of what they in fact use, right? 

Well if the setup were that single sentence, sure. One would think however, that the actual implementation would include more than a single sentence from a internet forum, which might actually address the details of fair use and paying for what you use.

Or we would just use a single sentence and draw all of our conclusions from that.  :fnord:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 07:27:31 pm
That bears no resemblance to what I just said. But whatever.


But it is the result of what you said.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 10, 2009, 07:30:49 pm
One more thing Rat:

You said "I think people should pay for what they use, or choose."

If that was the setup, you do realize a lot of people would choose to opt out of what they in fact use, right? 

Well if the setup were that single sentence, sure. One would think however, that the actual implementation would include more than a single sentence from a internet forum, which might actually address the details of fair use and paying for what you use.

Or we would just use a single sentence and draw all of our conclusions from that.  :fnord:

Look, you're the one who said "use or choose".  My point is that there is a significant difference and that it would have to be one or the other.  If you give someone the option to opt out based upon what they use or to opt out based upon what they choose.  A lot of people will pick the latter, and a lot of them will choose to opt out of services they indeed use. 

In other words, why don't you clarify, do you want it based upon what they use or what they choose?  Which one is it? 
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 10, 2009, 07:33:04 pm
Well, yes.

Thats why I think progressive taxation is generally the way to go.  Hell, even Adam Smith made a decent case for that (of course, Smith was down with a lot of things modern libertarianism likes to gloss over, or pretend never happened.  Which makes The Wealth of Nations great trolling material.  Just quote it as something by Marx and watch them howl in fury).

Adam Smith is about the single most misquoted person in history.  I managed to plough through Wealth of Nations, and it bears precisely zero resemblance to what the libertarians portray it as.

I feel sorry for him.  The Adam Smith Institute, which has done more than nearly anyone this side of the Atlantic to perpetuate that misinterpretation, was actually founded by three members of my University.  I nearly managed to corner one of them at a meeting once, but he got away due to a well-timed drop of a glass of sherry, distracting me.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 10, 2009, 07:34:59 pm
That bears no resemblance to what I just said. But whatever.


But it is the result of what you said.

No, its the result of your interpretation and reduction of what I said... What I said had to do with where people lived in relation to other people, not how much money they made. Ass.

One more thing Rat:

You said "I think people should pay for what they use, or choose."

If that was the setup, you do realize a lot of people would choose to opt out of what they in fact use, right?  

Well if the setup were that single sentence, sure. One would think however, that the actual implementation would include more than a single sentence from a internet forum, which might actually address the details of fair use and paying for what you use.

Or we would just use a single sentence and draw all of our conclusions from that.  :fnord:

Look, you're the one who said "use or choose".  My point is that there is a significant difference and that it would have to be one or the other.  If you give someone the option to opt out based upon what they use or to opt out based upon what they choose.  A lot of people will pick the latter, and a lot of them will choose to opt out of services they indeed use.  

In other words, why don't you clarify, do you want it based upon what they use or what they choose?  Which one is it?  

It's both.
Some things we USE like roads, fire depts, EMS, etc everyone can pay in because everyone uses them
Some things we could CHOOSE to support, like green energy research, some people choose to pay because they think its a good idea, some people choose not to, because they think its a waste of money.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 10, 2009, 07:45:27 pm
It's both.
Some things we USE like roads, fire depts, EMS, etc everyone can pay in because everyone uses them
Some things we could CHOOSE to support, like green energy research, some people choose to pay because they think its a good idea, some people choose not to, because they think its a waste of money.

Again, you get into the area of someone choosing not to support something that they aren't using at the time, but, eventually end up using.  How do you address that?  The government sends everyone a bill? 
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 10, 2009, 07:48:08 pm
No, its the result of your interpretation and reduction of what I said... What I said had to do with where people lived in relation to other people, not how much money they made. Ass.

Yes, because only rich people "choose" to live off the grid.

And the government would care why something wasn't paid, right?  Instead of just, you know, not giving a shit.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 10, 2009, 08:01:21 pm
It's both.
Some things we USE like roads, fire depts, EMS, etc everyone can pay in because everyone uses them
Some things we could CHOOSE to support, like green energy research, some people choose to pay because they think its a good idea, some people choose not to, because they think its a waste of money.

Again, you get into the area of someone choosing not to support something that they aren't using at the time, but, eventually end up using.  How do you address that?  The government sends everyone a bill? 

Like they end up using money for green research, that they didn't pay into? Or they end up taking money from the ecology fund? Or.... your worried about someone addicted to drugs not paying into your job fund?

If its the first two, I'm at a loss as to what they'd be doing there. If its more like the last one, there are many ways that it could be covered, my personal preference would be that it gets covered in health insurance, either health insurance your employer has on you, or national health insurance that the government offers. If you have no health insurance at all, because you elected not to pay into it... well you're a dumb ass and I don't really give a shit if you're on PCP and need help... maybe some private group will give you a grant to go get help.

There is a huge difference between having shared social responsibility and thinking that every last breathing bag of water must get everything they could possibly want or need. People should be responsible for their decisions. If a spag has the option for Private or National health care and his self-preservation is non-existent, then his heart transplant and drug treatment program should also be non-existent. Helping a fellow human out is, in my opinion, a duty for me... helping every human out with every problem they get themselves into... is not. At some point they have to be responsible for their choices... not based on income as Roger hallucinates I think... but based on the choices available to them.

No, its the result of your interpretation and reduction of what I said... What I said had to do with where people lived in relation to other people, not how much money they made. Ass.

Yes, because only rich people "choose" to live off the grid.

And the government would care why something wasn't paid, right?  Instead of just, you know, not giving a shit.


Well, I was particularly thinking of my family. My grandmother who still uses her outhouse and thunderbucket because they have no indoor plumbing. My great aunt who sleeps on cornshuck, and has a dirt floor.... and most of the people in the area I grew up in. They're not rich, they fucking poor, seriously, seriously, poor. And they tend to do damn well on their own. Not every 'off grid' individual is rich. Hell, most of the people I've corresponded with about off grid living (earthships etc) aren't rich either. In many cases they simply wanted to live alone and off grid saves lots of $$$.

But, feel free to interpret this as you wish, cause you will anyway.  :wink:

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 10, 2009, 08:04:54 pm
It's both.
Some things we USE like roads, fire depts, EMS, etc everyone can pay in because everyone uses them
Some things we could CHOOSE to support, like green energy research, some people choose to pay because they think its a good idea, some people choose not to, because they think its a waste of money.

Again, you get into the area of someone choosing not to support something that they aren't using at the time, but, eventually end up using.  How do you address that?  The government sends everyone a bill? 

Like they end up using money for green research, that they didn't pay into? Or they end up taking money from the ecology fund? Or.... your worried about someone addicted to drugs not paying into your job fund?

Thank you for assuming my question is selfishly motivated.  I think I'm done with this conversation. 

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 10, 2009, 08:12:42 pm


Well I think there are several opportunities to improve the current system. One idea, as I stated earlier is to let citizens have some self-determination in how their taxes are spent.


This while tantalizing, would unfortunately never work for the same reason we have a democratic republic and not just a flat-out democracy: It's mob-rule. It's three wolves and a sheep deciding what's for lunch. We'd get a lot of "trendy" spending and legislative impulse buying. You think MSNBC and Fox News are like huge political commercials NOW? Heh.

Quote
Another option, now that its possible, is to have some sort of interactive solution between the representative and the constituents, where the representative can see in real time (as can the constituents) how the people being represented feel about the issue being voted on and then people could see if their representative was really listening to his people, doing whatever he wanted or maybe voting in line with some back room deal rather than in line with the people he represents.

Any system which provides more input from the populace, more accountability to the representative etc. would be fantastic.

I'm all for this ANYWAY. If they're going to lay the whole "times have changed, advances in technology means unchartered territory for legislation" nonsense on us re: net neutrality, spying, medical records, REAL ID, et al, then they need to get onboard with some sort of technology-based accountability system.


Quote
I think a republican system could work, if most of the issues were dealt with at a state level and the Republic only dealt with serious issues of national impact... rather than Terri Schivo's feeding tube, marijuana usage by cancer patients etc. IF the republic tried to govern as little as possible, mostly acting to step in when a State couldn't find a solution, or when someone's civil/human rights are being violated... then I think it would be great.

Well put.

Quote
However, thats not what we have today. What we have today is a House/Senate that would love to have their fingers in every pie and do so at any opportunity.

If MOST issues were handled at a State level, if MOST taxes were paid at a State level  then I think individuals would have a lot more say in how money gets spent, in how issues get settled and overall more control of their own government.

If we had this, we wouldn't NEED to have say in how the money gets spent. The republic would work how it's supposed to work. The representatives would be have no leg to stand on if their consensus reports said "The people want x, y, and z" and they went off like a loose cannon doing whatever they pleased.

However, here's a little poo-ball of thought for the day: How the fuck are We The People supposed to give a shit when technically, by law the electoral college can vote however the fuck they damned well regardless of how the popular vote turns out?

There ARE hypocrisies in the system. I'm afraid we might just be indelibly fucked.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 10, 2009, 08:14:55 pm
Is, "I'm fucking starving to death" a civil liberty issue?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 10, 2009, 08:15:28 pm
It's both.
Some things we USE like roads, fire depts, EMS, etc everyone can pay in because everyone uses them
Some things we could CHOOSE to support, like green energy research, some people choose to pay because they think its a good idea, some people choose not to, because they think its a waste of money.

Again, you get into the area of someone choosing not to support something that they aren't using at the time, but, eventually end up using.  How do you address that?  The government sends everyone a bill? 

Like they end up using money for green research, that they didn't pay into? Or they end up taking money from the ecology fund? Or.... your worried about someone addicted to drugs not paying into your job fund?

Thank you for assuming my question is selfishly motivated.  I think I'm done with this conversation. 



That is not how I meant that to be stated. Please accept my apology, it was a very poor choice of words.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 10, 2009, 08:15:33 pm
Only when The State starves you.  If its inherent in the (market) system, its OK.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 10, 2009, 08:15:55 pm
Is, "I'm fucking starving to death" a civil liberty issue?

It's a civil rights issue.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 10, 2009, 08:18:17 pm
Is, "I'm fucking starving to death" a civil liberty issue?

It's a civil rights issue.

Correct. One must have food if they are to pursue Life, Liberty and Happiness.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 10, 2009, 08:20:24 pm
So, should the State provide food to starving citizens?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 10, 2009, 08:20:48 pm
It's both.
Some things we USE like roads, fire depts, EMS, etc everyone can pay in because everyone uses them
Some things we could CHOOSE to support, like green energy research, some people choose to pay because they think its a good idea, some people choose not to, because they think its a waste of money.

Again, you get into the area of someone choosing not to support something that they aren't using at the time, but, eventually end up using.  How do you address that?  The government sends everyone a bill? 

Like they end up using money for green research, that they didn't pay into? Or they end up taking money from the ecology fund? Or.... your worried about someone addicted to drugs not paying into your job fund?

Thank you for assuming my question is selfishly motivated.  I think I'm done with this conversation. 



That is not how I meant that to be stated. Please accept my apology, it was a very poor choice of words.

it's cool. 
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 10, 2009, 08:26:27 pm
So, should the State provide food to starving citizens?

No. But this is where I agree with Roger that the rules of the game should not be so slanted that all the food ends up in the lap of those who have a majority of the food already.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 10, 2009, 08:29:54 pm
In other words: you can't just take it away from the haves and give it to the have-nots, you have to set up a system where ALL persons have the opportunity to go get some and the odds are not so stacked against them that it's damned-near impossible to succeed on hard work and basic ability.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 10, 2009, 08:30:09 pm
So the state should deny a starving man his civil rights.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 10, 2009, 08:30:47 pm
Hard work and basic abilities mean jack shit when there are no jobs to be had.  
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 10, 2009, 08:32:40 pm
It's not really good for anyone to have kids starving to death during a recession.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 10, 2009, 08:35:17 pm
Hard work and basic abilities mean jack shit when there are no jobs to be had.  

I'm used to hard work and have well above basic abilities and I spend 10 hours a week doing research I could probably program my computer to do for me.

And that's the best job I've had since 2007 (note: for the purposes of discussion, poker, blackjack and various magic tricks and clever games performed in bars to win money off punters does not constitute "employment").
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 10, 2009, 08:38:45 pm
Yes: people need assistance.
Yes: we have a responsibility to the disadvantaged.
However: I'm more about education/rehabilitation than out-and-out handouts with no backup plan.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 10, 2009, 08:40:53 pm
Only way I'm getting more educated is with a PhD.  Education does not matter when there are few jobs going, and even fewer employers who want to take you on.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 10, 2009, 08:43:53 pm
Yes: people need assistance.
Yes: we have a responsibility to the disadvantaged.
However: I'm more about education/rehabilitation than out-and-out handouts with no backup plan.

People with college educations are dying from lack of food and shelter in the US right now.  What the fuck are you going to teach them?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bruno on July 10, 2009, 08:48:46 pm
So, should the State provide food to starving citizens?

Sure, not steak and wine though.

More like enriched protein wafers and all the water they can drink.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 10, 2009, 08:51:23 pm
Yes: people need assistance.
Yes: we have a responsibility to the disadvantaged.
However: I'm more about education/rehabilitation than out-and-out handouts with no backup plan.

Sometimes people just need food in order to survive through a recession.

How would it benefit society as a whole if, during a recession, the jobless and their children simply starved to death?

How do you think it would affect the economy?

What do you think would happen to the crime rate?

Would the nation and its surviving citizens end up more prosperous, vs. giving people social support in the form of free food or other public assistance?

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 10, 2009, 08:54:27 pm
So, should the State provide food to starving citizens?

Sure, not steak and wine though.

More like enriched protein wafers and all the water they can drink.

:cn:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on July 10, 2009, 08:55:57 pm
Yes: people need assistance.
Yes: we have a responsibility to the disadvantaged.
However: I'm more about education/rehabilitation than out-and-out handouts with no backup plan.

You do realize that what you are talking about would cost money, right?  Where is that money going to come from?  
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 10, 2009, 08:56:33 pm
WHATEVER YOU DO, DON'T TAX PEOPLE WHO CAN AFFORD IT!
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bruno on July 10, 2009, 08:56:46 pm
So, should the State provide food to starving citizens?

Sure, not steak and wine though.

More like enriched protein wafers and all the water they can drink.

:cn:

eh?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: fomenter on July 10, 2009, 08:58:12 pm
So, should the State provide food to starving citizens?

Sure, not steak and wine though.

More like enriched protein wafers and all the water they can drink.

:cn:
  soylent green is people
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bruno on July 10, 2009, 09:00:26 pm
So, should the State provide food to starving citizens?

Sure, not steak and wine though.

More like enriched protein wafers and all the water they can drink.

:cn:
  soylent green is people


LIES!!!!!
Soylent Green is soybeans, lentils and aglae!!!!!! :crankey:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on July 10, 2009, 09:36:53 pm
I think the food-stamp program is fine. Jesus, how the hell did we get into this?

Here you go: here's $500-some-odd dollars per month to feed your family any way you want as long as all you buy is food.
It's perfect. It offers assistance to those truly in need without making their choices for them.

Why are we treating poor people like an enemy, anyway? Why are we treating it like a permanent situation? It's not. "You're one of us, you pay into this system too, here's your help, it's yours."

What I have a problem with is categorizing people as beyond helping themselves and irresponsibly leaving them to die in that shit hole while people endlessly scream "Hey, there's a lot of shit in that hole! You need to put some steak and wine in there, ya greedy bastard!"
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Iason Ouabache on July 11, 2009, 12:42:39 am
(http://i27.tinypic.com/j9xz4j.gif)
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 11, 2009, 07:45:33 am
I think the food-stamp program is fine. Jesus, how the hell did we get into this?

Here you go: here's $500-some-odd dollars per month to feed your family any way you want as long as all you buy is food.
It's perfect. It offers assistance to those truly in need without making their choices for them.

Why are we treating poor people like an enemy, anyway? Why are we treating it like a permanent situation? It's not. "You're one of us, you pay into this system too, here's your help, it's yours."

What I have a problem with is categorizing people as beyond helping themselves and irresponsibly leaving them to die in that shit hole while people endlessly scream "Hey, there's a lot of shit in that hole! You need to put some steak and wine in there, ya greedy bastard!"

Socialist.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 11, 2009, 01:32:29 pm
Just so you know what happens on the UK "job seekers", ie; unemployed scheme.  You can decide whether or not its a good scheme.

1.  If you have been unemployed for more than 2 weeks (IIRC) then you can apply to a Job Centre for benefits while you look for work.  These benefits are conditional on you actively seeking work.

2.  You go in, are interviewed and assessed.  Under jobseekers alone, you are eligible for up to £60 a week.  I believe there are additional benefits for those with families or children, but I don't know much about them in personal detail.

3.  You also get to charge any trips you make, which are over £5 in cost, to interviews, so long as you confirm it beforehand and get a receipt (I once got screwed out of £150 worth of travel expenses because I didn't confirm beforehand, despite receipts, proof of interview etc etc).

4.  After six months of continuous unemployment, you are put on the New Deal.  This gives you additional funds which you can apply for if you think they are necessary to you getting a job (unless you need something like a laptop, in which case you can fuck off, even if 95% of your applications are done by computer).  It also gives you cheaper travel within your county and forces you to attend mandatory training classes, where such wonderful skills as "writing a CV" or "literacy and numeracy in the workplace" are taught.

5.  If, after a 24 month continuous period, you are still unemployed, the government will place you with a corporate partner (which you are required to comply with, or else your benefits are cut to nothing), subsidize your wages in order to entice said company into this, and you will work there until you find employment elsewhere, or are sacked. 


Personally, I think it sucks.  £50 is what I get from this, per week, and its a quarter of what I can get on the minimum wage.  Because I'm mostly applying locally, travel costs come in at just under £5.  Because I'm paying rent to my parents, there is no help for that, despite most of my benefits going towards that single cost.  Their "training programs" aren't worth shit for anyone with beyond the standard high school qualifications and most people who went into apprenticeships (ie the vast majority of people unemployed right now), and the additional funds have abitrary limits on them that make them worthless.  Finally, if I cannot get a job, a company will be coerced into taking me on (No resentment there, eh?) and I will be paid below minumum wage for whatever monkey work they decide I should do.

The problem isn't that I lack skills.  The problem is the economy is in the shitter and every employer thinks a graduate will cut and run the moment they get a better deal, even when there are no better deals going.  The government works from the premise that there are jobs, its just people aren't finding them.  This isn't the case.  I've applied for factory work in cases where there have been over 200 applicants.  Hell, I've gotten the paper the morning it came out on, rang to find out about a job and found it is already closed due to the sheer volume of applications they now have to sort through.

There are no jobs.  The system was designed on the premise that there would always be jobs and that the only people who couldn't get one are the terminally stupid and useless.  Going by a quick, informal poll of my friends, friends of my friends and their friends, just 3 in 20 of the people who graduated last year have managed to find permament employment suited to their skill level.  And most of those were a matter of luck or connections.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Fuquad on July 11, 2009, 05:33:35 pm
That bears no resemblance to what I just said. But whatever.


But it is the result of what you said.

No, its the result of your interpretation and reduction of what I said... What I said had to do with where people lived in relation to other people, not how much money they made. Ass.

One more thing Rat:

You said "I think people should pay for what they use, or choose."

If that was the setup, you do realize a lot of people would choose to opt out of what they in fact use, right?  

Well if the setup were that single sentence, sure. One would think however, that the actual implementation would include more than a single sentence from a internet forum, which might actually address the details of fair use and paying for what you use.

Or we would just use a single sentence and draw all of our conclusions from that.  :fnord:

Look, you're the one who said "use or choose".  My point is that there is a significant difference and that it would have to be one or the other.  If you give someone the option to opt out based upon what they use or to opt out based upon what they choose.  A lot of people will pick the latter, and a lot of them will choose to opt out of services they indeed use.  

In other words, why don't you clarify, do you want it based upon what they use or what they choose?  Which one is it?  

It's both.
Some things we USE like roads, fire depts, EMS, etc everyone can pay in because everyone uses them
Some things we could CHOOSE to support, like green energy research, some people choose to pay because they think its a good idea, some people choose not to, because they think its a waste of money.

I don't use the roads. I don't use the fire department. WTF?!?!?

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 11, 2009, 05:37:08 pm
In other words: you can't just take it away from the haves and give it to the have-nots,

We sure as fuck can.  We've been doing for close to a century, and we're still here.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Shibboleet The Annihilator on July 12, 2009, 05:32:01 am
Someone help me out here: why does it seem like so many people who call themselves "discordians" (on one sense or another) have anti-libertarian, Progressive views lately?

I'm not trolling around for a quick argument, I just feel really alone lately. I don't fit in with Conservatives for societal reasons and I don't fit with Progressives/Liberals/whatever because of my staunch individualist ideals.

It seems like "Libertarian" has become a dirty word lately. I'm not trying to sound alarmist with my tin-foil haberdashery but the current wave of extreme Progressivism feels oppressive and a little bit fascist to me. I start to wonder if perhaps the Alex Jones set has it all figured out after all...and then I watch some clip of them whispering maniacally about Bilderberg into some supaSecret hidden camera (fnord) and I'm suddenly left with the realization that I may be doomed to live a life curled up and crying in the fetal position in the bottom of my shower for the dreadful loneliness.

Isn't there a fun-loving, fly-by-the-seat-of-our-pance, free-hugs-gay-marriage-and-legal-weed-for-all group of "Conservatives" out there who actually feel an iota of love/acceptance for the people they're screaming about Liberty/Bill of Rights/Less Government beside?

How about the other way? Aren't there any "party people" out there who DON'T feel it necessary to push their "sacrifice individual liberty to achieve common goals for the greater good" ideology on me? Cause as far as I'm concerned; compelling me by force to do shit "for the greater good" is just as bad as making me do shit "because that's what jeebus said."

Am I the only one who sees the current president as a happy-faced, kindhearted supaMan in a glowing, psychedelic BIP?


You can do anything you want, as long as you do the Right Thing.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v511/Navkat/DoAsISayAndIWillBeYourSlave.jpg)



Protip #1: Conservatives are not conservative anymore.
Protip #2: You are far from the only person who is disenfranchised with both the left and the right.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: rubickspoop on July 12, 2009, 10:36:02 am
Just so you know what happens on the UK "job seekers", ie; unemployed scheme.  You can decide whether or not its a good scheme.

1.  If you have been unemployed for more than 2 weeks (IIRC) then you can apply to a Job Centre for benefits while you look for work.  These benefits are conditional on you actively seeking work.

2.  You go in, are interviewed and assessed.  Under jobseekers alone, you are eligible for up to £60 a week.  I believe there are additional benefits for those with families or children, but I don't know much about them in personal detail.

3.  You also get to charge any trips you make, which are over £5 in cost, to interviews, so long as you confirm it beforehand and get a receipt (I once got screwed out of £150 worth of travel expenses because I didn't confirm beforehand, despite receipts, proof of interview etc etc).

4.  After six months of continuous unemployment, you are put on the New Deal.  This gives you additional funds which you can apply for if you think they are necessary to you getting a job (unless you need something like a laptop, in which case you can fuck off, even if 95% of your applications are done by computer).  It also gives you cheaper travel within your county and forces you to attend mandatory training classes, where such wonderful skills as "writing a CV" or "literacy and numeracy in the workplace" are taught.

5.  If, after a 24 month continuous period, you are still unemployed, the government will place you with a corporate partner (which you are required to comply with, or else your benefits are cut to nothing), subsidize your wages in order to entice said company into this, and you will work there until you find employment elsewhere, or are sacked. 


Personally, I think it sucks.  £50 is what I get from this, per week, and its a quarter of what I can get on the minimum wage.  Because I'm mostly applying locally, travel costs come in at just under £5.  Because I'm paying rent to my parents, there is no help for that, despite most of my benefits going towards that single cost.  Their "training programs" aren't worth shit for anyone with beyond the standard high school qualifications and most people who went into apprenticeships (ie the vast majority of people unemployed right now), and the additional funds have abitrary limits on them that make them worthless.  Finally, if I cannot get a job, a company will be coerced into taking me on (No resentment there, eh?) and I will be paid below minumum wage for whatever monkey work they decide I should do.

The problem isn't that I lack skills.  The problem is the economy is in the shitter and every employer thinks a graduate will cut and run the moment they get a better deal, even when there are no better deals going.  The government works from the premise that there are jobs, its just people aren't finding them.  This isn't the case.  I've applied for factory work in cases where there have been over 200 applicants.  Hell, I've gotten the paper the morning it came out on, rang to find out about a job and found it is already closed due to the sheer volume of applications they now have to sort through.

There are no jobs.  The system was designed on the premise that there would always be jobs and that the only people who couldn't get one are the terminally stupid and useless.  Going by a quick, informal poll of my friends, friends of my friends and their friends, just 3 in 20 of the people who graduated last year have managed to find permament employment suited to their skill level.  And most of those were a matter of luck or connections.

That is a really shitty situation, Cain. That sucks that such a small minority of college grads can find real work.
Wouldn't it be great if there were more jobs to be had, if the world economy wasn't so fucked up?
I, too, am unemployed. But because I've never been employed continuously by one company for more than a year, I can't even draw unemployment. The only job I have been able to get since I dropped out of college was in business to business sales, getting payed straight commission for selling Chinese shit that no one wants or needs. That was worse than being unemployed.
But I'm going to USMC basic training in a couple of months, so I won't have to worry about money anymore. I think its worth selling 4 years of my life to my fucked up government to be financially set for the rest of it.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 12, 2009, 02:41:41 pm
That is a really shitty situation, Cain. That sucks that such a small minority of college grads can find real work.
Wouldn't it be great if there were more jobs to be had, if the world economy wasn't so fucked up?
I, too, am unemployed. But because I've never been employed continuously by one company for more than a year, I can't even draw unemployment. The only job I have been able to get since I dropped out of college was in business to business sales, getting payed straight commission for selling Chinese shit that no one wants or needs. That was worse than being unemployed.
But I'm going to USMC basic training in a couple of months, so I won't have to worry about money anymore. I think its worth selling 4 years of my life to my fucked up government to be financially set for the rest of it.

I've seen some of those sort of jobs going and, as you say, it is worse than being unemployed (being interviewed by one is where I lost my £150 in travel expenses, too, so I also hate them for that).

Yeah, when nothing else seems to work, the military isn't always a terrible choice.  Though personally I would advise someone other than the Marines, since they tend to get deployed more than other units, IIRC, and so increases your chance of ending up in some shithole doing exercises in advertising for international arms dealers.

I've considered the military, it definitely meshes with my training and I could probably even get funding from them to do further education, but

1) I don't want to join the British military, ever.
2) To apply to the Australian military, I have to be in Australia.  Which requires money.  And if I fail, then I can't go home and would have to live with my godawful grandmother.
3) I'm really, really bad at following orders.  At best I'd end up some sort of military maverick, at worse I'd be a rogue element needlessy endangering others.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 12, 2009, 09:28:57 pm

I'm not trolling around for a quick argument, I just feel really alone lately. I don't fit in with Conservatives for societal reasons and I don't fit with Progressives/Liberals/whatever because of my staunch individualist ideals.


You don't even know what the fuck a liberal is, do you?

Tell a classic liberal like Patrick Henry that he wasn't an individualist.  Then he'll push your face out the back of your head and then shit down your neck.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: rubickspoop on July 13, 2009, 04:28:17 am
I'm going into the Marines as a musician (French horn, specifically), so I have a pretty low chance of getting sent into the desert to fight terrorism. They'll need me at home inspiring patriotism with my heavenly tones. I'm joining the Marines because I want the most intense and highest quality combat training available to me. I don't expect to have a whole lot of fun, but I do expect to learn a lot, and I think it will be good for me. The shittiest part so far is keeping my piss clean.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Shibboleet The Annihilator on July 13, 2009, 07:06:14 am
Good luck in Afghanistan.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 13, 2009, 12:11:56 pm
Didn't that guy in the Cryptnomicon join the Navy as a musician, and then his ship got sunk or something?

I know exactly where I'd be sent if I joined the Army, since my dissertation was on failed states, counterinsurgency and organized crime.  Which is why I really don't want to join.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 13, 2009, 12:13:47 pm
I'm going into the Marines as a musician (French horn, specifically),

Have fun in Afghanistan.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 13, 2009, 03:40:04 pm
Didn't that guy in the Cryptnomicon join the Navy as a musician, and then his ship got sunk or something?

I know exactly where I'd be sent if I joined the Army, since my dissertation was on failed states, counterinsurgency and organized crime.  Which is why I really don't want to join.

Waterhouse played the Glockenspiel for a boat that was sitting in the dock at Pearl Harbor.

Synchronicity, I'm currently reading the Baroque Cycle which covers the 18th century Waterhouse family. So far, its been awesome.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Verbal Mike on July 13, 2009, 03:40:30 pm
Cain, is that diss available somewhere for reading?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: rubickspoop on July 14, 2009, 11:17:04 pm
ok assholes, I know I might die, i know there's a decent chance I'll end up in the desert, but I'll probably just play my french horn in one of the many bases stateside or in japan. they have so many people that CHOOSE to be infantry i don't really have to worry.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Template on July 15, 2009, 03:07:57 am
ok assholes, I know I might die, i know there's a decent chance I'll end up in the desert, but I'll probably just play my french horn in one of the many bases stateside or in japan. they have so many people that CHOOSE to be infantry i don't really have to worry.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 15, 2009, 03:34:41 am
ok assholes, I know I might die, i know there's a decent chance I'll end up in the desert, but I'll probably just play my french horn in one of the many bases stateside or in japan. they have so many people that CHOOSE to be infantry i don't really have to worry.

 :horrormirth:

Please tell me you don't really  believe this.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bruno on July 15, 2009, 04:59:20 am
Military recruiters are notoriously honest people.




No, really.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 15, 2009, 10:48:14 am
Cain, is that diss available somewhere for reading?

I'm not sure exactly where it is, at the moment.  Here are some extracts from it, however.

Quote
While the Westphalian system of states seems to be the favoured political method of organization right now, the above cases cast doubt on how long this can continue for.  Globalization, both in its 'dark' manifestations (insurgents, organized crime and terrorism) and its more benign forms, such as regional integration of states and transnational corporations, are making the modern state increasingly irrelevant.  Even the need for security, which I have posited is a major aspect of the success of violent sub-national actors, is being outsourced, with private military companies being contracted to various companies or governments.  

Martin Creveld notes this trend in his closing chapter to The Rise and Decline of the State.  Increasingly, “individuals, neighbourhoods and corporations have tried to protect themselves from terrorism and crime by hiring private guards, erecting security fences, installing alarm systems and close circuit television...” and taking other countermeasures as well.

The result could well be what Hedley Bull refers to as “new medievalism”, a term Creveld is almost in agreement with when he posits that violence will return to a 17th century condition, namely “a capital enterprise little different from, and intimately linked to, a number of others.”  Either way, it would seem logical that if globalization is forcing terrorism against the community to evolve in this way, then allowing security services themselves to adapt to the current system may improve their efficiency and ability to provide those basic services.

That said, some in the military and academia have claimed that such measures can only stave off state collapse, and do not address the underlying problems, which they see as fundamentally one of organization.  These groups, from terrorist organizations to multinational corporations are far more flexible than the states they work in (or against) which gives them a decisive ability both in decision making and in their resiliency.  Many of the most advanced states still seek to fight such violent actors “an organizational doctrine characterized by a ladder hierarchy, top down command and control, bureaucratic layering and jurisdictional complexity, and stove pipes, that at are best cumbersome and at worst lead to bureaucratic competition and immobilization.”

This raises important questions about how states should structure themselves, as well as equally important ones about democracy and accountability.  Robert Kaplan states that war can only be subject to democratic controls when “it is a condition distinctly separate from peace.”  The state of “quasi-war” in which terrorist groups and organized crime tend to operate, require instead quick and covert responses “marked by commando raids and electronic strikes”.  In which case, war moves further away from democratic control “unsanctioned by Congress and the citizenry”and instead being in the hands of experts, the military and political executive.

In other words the state, which was formed in a particular international climate and under certain economic and cultural conditions, is at least in some senses no longer fit for its primary purpose, that of defending its citizenry, in the current international climate.  Whether that is a structural problem which will do away with that particular form of political organization, or one that will require substantial, yet limited readjustments in how the state is organized, remain to be seen.  Because of the emerging and contemporary nature of this change, it becomes very hard to get the data necessary to be able to make definitive predictions about how current trends will unfold.  While we have the past, as well as current philosophy, to guide us, they cannot and do not take into account things we cannot know about or anticipate.  New inventions, like the atom bomb, or unforeseen ideologies and religious groups may suddenly come to prominence under exceptional circumstances and change the entire nature of the political system in one way or another.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: rubickspoop on July 15, 2009, 10:52:15 am
Military recruiters are notoriously honest people.


No, really.

This isn't from my recruiter, this is anecdotal evidence gathered from the 60 other people at my recruit station waiting to ship out. At least 2/3 are signed up to be infantry, and are proud of it.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Verbal Mike on July 15, 2009, 12:49:59 pm
Thanks, Cain. Be sure to link me up if a pdf becomes available somewhere, I'd like to read it.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 15, 2009, 01:20:58 pm
Hey, wait a second:  Doesn't playing the French Horn violate the "don't ask, don't tell" rule?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cramulus on July 15, 2009, 03:49:40 pm
 :spittake:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Fuquad on July 15, 2009, 05:55:51 pm
Military recruiters are notoriously honest people.


No, really.

This isn't from my recruiter, this is anecdotal evidence gathered from the 60 other people at my recruit station waiting to ship out. At least 2/3 are signed up to be infantry, and are proud of it.
60 people from ONE recruit station that ALL play the French Horn?

Somehow I don't believe it.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 15, 2009, 06:32:50 pm
Military recruiters are notoriously honest people.


No, really.

This isn't from my recruiter, this is anecdotal evidence gathered from the 60 other people at my recruit station waiting to ship out. At least 2/3 are signed up to be infantry, and are proud of it.

You talked to all 60 of them?

"Infantry" is code for "too stupid to do anything but die", sadly.

So, here is my question. Did you audition? If you auditioned and were accepted into the United States Marine Band, holy shit congratulations, that is spectacularly prestigious!

If not, enjoy Afghanistan.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Elder Iptuous on July 15, 2009, 06:34:11 pm
"Infantry" is code for "too stupid to do anything but die", sadly.

How sweeping of you, Nigel....
 :roll:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Fuquad on July 15, 2009, 06:51:20 pm
Military recruiters are notoriously honest people.


No, really.

This isn't from my recruiter, this is anecdotal evidence gathered from the 60 other people at my recruit station waiting to ship out. At least 2/3 are signed up to be infantry, and are proud of it.

You talked to all 60 of them?

"Infantry" is code for "too stupid to do anything but die", sadly.

So, here is my question. Did you audition? If you auditioned and were accepted into the United States Marine Band, holy shit congratulations, that is spectacularly prestigious!

If not, enjoy Afghanistan.

I'm still trying to figure out how other recruits repeating what the recruiting officer told them means that they have any idea what they are talking about. We are talking about people that still haven't gone to boot camp.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Fuquad on July 15, 2009, 06:53:54 pm
"Infantry" is code for "too stupid to do anything but die", sadly.

How sweeping of you, Nigel....
 :roll:
can you explain how something being a code for something else means that the code is true?

because I'm having a hard time making your accusation work unless a code has to be correct.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Elder Iptuous on July 15, 2009, 07:00:51 pm
"Infantry" is code for "too stupid to do anything but die", sadly.

How sweeping of you, Nigel....
 :roll:
can you explain how something being a code for something else means that the code is true?

because I'm having a hard time making your accusation work unless a code has to be correct.


If you're quoting me because you think i'm agreeing with Nigel's assertion, then you misunderstand me.  her generalization is demeaning to several that i know who are good, reasonably intelligent people, even if i feel they are misguided... (not that i really hold it against her, though)

also, you misread rubikspoop's comment...
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Fuquad on July 15, 2009, 07:12:13 pm
"Infantry" is code for "too stupid to do anything but die", sadly.

How sweeping of you, Nigel....
 :roll:
can you explain how something being a code for something else means that the code is true?

because I'm having a hard time making your accusation work unless a code has to be correct.


If you're quoting me because you think i'm agreeing with Nigel's assertion, then you misunderstand me.  her generalization is demeaning to several that i know who are good, reasonably intelligent people, even if i feel they are misguided... (not that i really hold it against her, though)

also, you misread rubikspoop's comment...
Nope. I was asking because you called it a sweeping generalization. And you have no idea if i misread rubikspoop's comment. Hell you couldn't even understand that I was saying that you were ACCUSING someone and not agreeing with them. There's no reason for me to use the word accusing if you agreed with her.

The comment isn't about the infantry but the view of the infantry the brass have.

it has nothing to do with whether or not the brass' estimation is true or not.

let me know if there's anything else I can explain for you.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Elder Iptuous on July 15, 2009, 07:21:51 pm
Nope. I was asking because you called it a sweeping generalization. And you have no idea if i misread rubikspoop's comment. Hell you couldn't even understand that I was saying that you were ACCUSING someone and not agreeing with them. There's no reason for me to use the word accusing if you agreed with her.

The comment isn't about the infantry but the view of the infantry the brass have.

it has nothing to do with whether or not the brass' estimation is true or not.

let me know if there's anything else I can explain for you.

Ah... i see.  you're probably right about her generalization... i think i did misinterpret it.  and the word accusation is what led me to believe that you might have meant to quote her, instead....
I was obviously confused...

so i probably misunderstood your comment to rubikspoop, too...
what did you mean by this?
Quote
60 people from ONE recruit station that ALL play the French Horn?
Somehow I don't believe it.
because he didn't seem to indicate that....
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Fuquad on July 15, 2009, 07:31:07 pm
Nope. I was asking because you called it a sweeping generalization. And you have no idea if i misread rubikspoop's comment. Hell you couldn't even understand that I was saying that you were ACCUSING someone and not agreeing with them. There's no reason for me to use the word accusing if you agreed with her.

The comment isn't about the infantry but the view of the infantry the brass have.

it has nothing to do with whether or not the brass' estimation is true or not.

let me know if there's anything else I can explain for you.

Ah... i see.  you're probably right about her generalization... i think i did misinterpret it.  and the word accusation is what led me to believe that you might have meant to quote her, instead....
I was obviously confused...

so i probably misunderstood your comment to rubikspoop, too...
what did you mean by this?
Quote
60 people from ONE recruit station that ALL play the French Horn?
Somehow I don't believe it.
because he didn't seem to indicate that....
I meant that not all 60 people were having the same experience that he was. Which is kind of beside the point as they have about as much clue about what could happen as he does.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Elder Iptuous on July 15, 2009, 08:48:04 pm
I meant that not all 60 people were having the same experience that he was. Which is kind of beside the point as they have about as much clue about what could happen as he does.
ayah....
it seems his point was simply that there were 2/3 of the people there signed up to be infantry in support of his statement that.....
aw nevermind....
 :|

i wasn't even following this thread for the past 6 pages.
i'm like a child who walk in on middle of a movie and...
 :oops:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Requia ☣ on July 15, 2009, 09:19:37 pm
Infantry is actually one of the harder positions to get, at least in the army.  I'm not sure how the marines staffing breaks down.  Actually getting the position you signed up expecting is near impossible regardless though, more likely you'll end up as a grunt in logistics carrying heavy boxes, or if your test scores come in high, stuck behind a desk counting said heavy boxes.

Neither of those are exactly safe jobs either, Iraq needs a lot of boxes, and the attacks are pretty indiscriminate.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 15, 2009, 10:34:29 pm
"Infantry" is code for "too stupid to do anything but die", sadly.

How sweeping of you, Nigel....
 :roll:

 :lulz: I take it you were infantry?

Sorry, man, but they're called cannon-fodder for a reason. Anyone with the skills to avoid being an infantryman, does. I mean, I'm basing this strictly on what my father, sister, and brothers have to say about it.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Elder Iptuous on July 16, 2009, 02:23:50 am
shit, no.
i wouldn't go into the US military unless things were vastly different.  And if i did, i would go into the AF to be an officer, like both my grandfathers and my father. bomb the shit out of the subhuman enemy... that's what we pay the big bucks for.  not to muck about in the dirt.
my rolleyes was based on a couple friends and some friend's siblings that i know.
they may be suckers (in my estimation), but they certainly aren't unintelligent, or badwrong for doing it....

so, your statement was your own view, and not a sarcastic impression of what the 'top brass' might think, as that screeching nogood pesky guy indicated?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Fuquad on July 16, 2009, 02:31:59 am
Seems like I was wrong.

I feel like the guy that was watching the movie, got the subtext all wrong and some guy that wasn't in the theatre for most of the damn thing understood it better than I.

 :oops:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 16, 2009, 04:18:06 am
ok assholes, I know I might die, i know there's a decent chance I'll end up in the desert, but I'll probably just play my french horn in one of the many bases stateside or in japan. they have so many people that CHOOSE to be infantry i don't really have to worry.

Yeah.  I did, for example.  But when I enlisted, it was peacetime.  That changed, but fortunately, Bush's old man was in charge, and knew how to run a trade show war.

Now there's a huge abortion on, and you just jammed your dick in the meatgrinder.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 16, 2009, 04:18:31 am
Military recruiters are notoriously honest people.


No, really.

This isn't from my recruiter, this is anecdotal evidence gathered from the 60 other people at my recruit station waiting to ship out. At least 2/3 are signed up to be infantry, and are proud of it.

What does your CONTRACT say?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 16, 2009, 04:19:34 am
"Infantry" is code for "too stupid to do anything but die", sadly.

 :sad:

TGRR,
Infantry Grunt 1987-1996.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Elder Iptuous on July 16, 2009, 04:48:58 am
BOOSH!
 :lulz:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 16, 2009, 04:50:06 am
"Infantry" is code for "too stupid to do anything but die", sadly.

How sweeping of you, Nigel....
 :roll:

 :lulz: I take it you were infantry?

Sorry, man, but they're called cannon-fodder for a reason. Anyone with the skills to avoid being an infantryman, does. I mean, I'm basing this strictly on what my father, sister, and brothers have to say about it.

What branches were they in?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 16, 2009, 11:28:50 am
As an aside (but on topic) I was reading John Gray's Black Mass again while at the train station, which was most of the day.  He manages to make a case for libertarianism/neo-liberalism, Marxism and Fascism being all part of the same doomed Western project - that of secularizing millenial, utopian and apocalyptic religious values and attempting to remake society through force.

And then takes a sledghammer to all of those theories, just to show how stupid they are.  Its even more interesting when you realize Gray was one of the public intellectuals behind Thatcher in the day, and involved in the early days of New Labour, before he abandoned the New Right for...well, the reasons given in this book.

I'll post some extracts later today, since I have to actually write them up from the book, not copy and paste from an online version of it.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 16, 2009, 01:01:29 pm
Quote
attempting to remake society through force.

That usually ends especially badly for everyone.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 16, 2009, 01:24:23 pm
Yes.  Gray is convinced, however, this is the secret hiding at the heart of all major Western ideologies.  He is quite "liberal" in his own beliefs, but has major problems with Neoliberal and libertarian philosophy.

I'll try and write out some extracts now.  I was just blogging, and so didn't really get around to it.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 16, 2009, 01:46:44 pm
Quote
The neo-liberal worldview that Thatcher accepted by the end of the 1980s was the successor-ideology to Marxism.  Ideological thinking tends to adopt a one-size-fits-all approach to society and so it was at the end of the eighties, when the close of the Cold War gave neo-liberal ideas a catastrophic boost.  Led by Thatcher, western governments told the countries of the former Soviet Bloc that if they wanted prosperity, they had to import the free market.  The notion that one set of policies could have the same beneficial results in the widely different former countries of the Soviet Bloc was absurd, but it was of a piece of the mindset of the International Monetary Fund that had imposed similar policies on highly dissimilar countries, such as Indonesia, Nigeria and Peru.  Along with the bureaucrats of the IMF, emissaries were dispatched to the post-communist lands, carrying the same draft constitutions in their briefcases.  No matter how discrepant the countries they descended on, these neo-liberal ideologues tried to impose the same model on them all.

Quote
With minor variations, F.A. Hayek, Milton Friedman, and a host of lesser lights subscribe to these beliefs.  All were exponenets of a late-twentieth century Enlightenment ideology whose basic tenents - despite being advanced as the result of scientific enquiry - are rooted in religions faith.  Neo-liberals aim to recover the lost purity of liberalism before its pollution by collectivist thinking, and like all fundamentalists they end up with a caricature of the tradition they seek to revive.  Neo-liberalism was a late twentieth century parody of classical political economy.  The classical economists of the eighteenth century believed all societies passed through definite stages of development leading to a single destination - a commercial civilization based on market exchange - but they had a clear understanding of the flaws of market society.  Lacking this insight, neo-liberals turned classical economics into a utopian ideology.

Quote
A conception of providence underlies the idea of a natural system of liberty advanced by [Adam] Smith, and liberal thought as a whole is shaped by Christian belief.


Quote
In the early nineteenth century, the chief argument for free trade was that tariffs thwart the divine design.  [...] Free trade was a means to brotherhood under the law of God.  In the 1840s, Richard Cobden waged a successful campaign against the protectionist Corn Laws in Britain under the slogan "Free Trade is the International Law of God".  For him, this was not a metaphor but literal truth.  Later economists tried to reformulate arguments for free trade in secular terms of comparative advantage, but they have never been very successful. [...]  The resulting body of thought is more dogmatic than Smith's faith-based political economy.  The free market only became a religion when its basis in religion was denied. 
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 16, 2009, 01:59:45 pm
So, the Invisible Hand is actually YHVH smackin' a ho?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 16, 2009, 02:03:12 pm
Oh yeah.  Adam Smith makes this pretty explicit, in The Wealth of Nations.  This relates back to the whole "people don't actually read Adam Smith, just rape his intellectual corpse" discussion TGRR and me were having.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 16, 2009, 02:22:58 pm
There's also a bit in Poker Without Cards, something like, "Why do you believe that there can be no freedom without capitalism?"
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Elder Iptuous on July 16, 2009, 02:32:15 pm
There's also a bit in Poker Without Cards, something like, "Why do you believe that there can be no freedom without capitalism?"
I believe he said that it was a question in an interview with GHWBush, and Bush answered negatively, but there was no 'why'....
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 16, 2009, 02:33:50 pm
Yeah, that was it.  I didn't feel like looking it up.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 16, 2009, 04:36:50 pm
Ok, I looked it up.


Quote
HOWARD CAMPBELL:
One of Bucky’s favorite authors, a voice he found empathizing, and a really good author who killed himself young and
was only published posthumously. His second novel, A Confederacy of Dunces, won a Pulitzer. Toole questioned
capitalism, and, in the essay that I drew the quote from, he ends by suggesting that economic freedom will lead to
unimaginable fiefdoms. At least, unimaginable to his mind in 1958.
Bucky held that neither human equality nor economic freedom could ever exist. Both concepts, equality and
economics, are comparative by nature and thus are never absolutely equal nor free from the rules of their systems. This
isn’t semantics. It’s structural analysis. Bucky held that the popular ken equates freedom with capitalism. Bucky once
asked President Bush The First if democracy could exist without capitalism. Bush said absolutely not. This confirmed
Bucky’s suspicion of Bush’s cosmography. Look, the corporation is the keystone of American capitalism. America
was the first government to imbue an organization with legal rights comparable to humans, and to divorce liability from
the actual human owners.
Bucky was a capitalist by practice, trade, and passion. But, capitalism does not require removing personal liability
from the owners of corporations. He argued that there was a parallel with slavery. Similar to corporations, slaves were
viewed as property and given some rights. A major difference between owning a slave and owning a corporation,
though, is that a slave could generate a liability greater than their market value. Corporations can not. If the
corporation creates a liability greater than its worth, the corporation just disappears. Bucky advocated the reimplementation
of ownership liability.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Elder Iptuous on July 16, 2009, 04:49:51 pm
this claim from that passage:
Quote
America
was the first government to imbue an organization with legal rights comparable to humans, and to divorce liability from
the actual human owners.
isn't true.  corporations were created for the express purpose of divorcing liability from the human owners....
and they predate the US by a long shot...
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 16, 2009, 04:53:24 pm
We can get into that more when we discuss the book, but for now, remember that Howard was trying to express the views of Bucky, who (some say) is a Paranoid Schizophrenic.  Accuracy might not apply.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Elder Iptuous on July 16, 2009, 05:12:38 pm
how far are you in the book?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on July 16, 2009, 06:09:46 pm
About halfway.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: rubickspoop on July 16, 2009, 11:29:10 pm
Way to get the thread back on topic, Cain.
Quote
Led by Thatcher, western governments told the countries of the former Soviet Bloc that if they wanted prosperity, they had to import the free market.  The notion that one set of policies could have the same beneficial results in the widely different former countries of the Soviet Bloc was absurd, but it was of a piece of the mindset of the International Monetary Fund that had imposed similar policies on highly dissimilar countries, such as Indonesia, Nigeria and Peru.  Along with the bureaucrats of the IMF, emissaries were dispatched to the post-communist lands, carrying the same draft constitutions in their briefcases.  No matter how discrepant the countries they descended on, these neo-liberal ideologues tried to impose the same model on them all.

The IMF is also an international loan shark, loaning billions to these same countries for "infrastructure" and "development." This money ends up getting embezzled at just about every step of the bureaucracy, which leaves little to improve infrastructure and help out anyone who doesn't work for the government. Then that government is in massive debt to the IMF forever. The IMF and its neo-liberal policies are great for maintaining colonialism now that it can't be done directly.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: rubickspoop on July 17, 2009, 10:40:29 am
And to respond to some of that military shit: my contract says that the USMC can change my MOS any time until I go to basic. However, I am about 95% sure they won't, since they flew a band director up from KC (more than 500 miles away) to audition me, after I had already enlisted with my MOS as an electrician. Also, my recruiter had to beg me about 4 times to audition and make about 10 promises of good things to come if I changed my MOS to musician (none of which I got on paper, of course). Given these circumstances, I've pretty much ruled out the possibility that this is an elaborate bait and switch to turn me into an infantryman.

PS: Thanks, Nigel. I was really happy I did good in the audition, since I haven't practiced hardcore in a few months. Of course, it helped that I had studied the solo I played for the audition with my horn prof before i left school :)
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 17, 2009, 05:40:57 pm
"Infantry" is code for "too stupid to do anything but die", sadly.

 :sad:

TGRR,
Infantry Grunt 1987-1996.

Congratulations on not getting killed.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 17, 2009, 05:51:18 pm
shit, no.
i wouldn't go into the US military unless things were vastly different.  And if i did, i would go into the AF to be an officer, like both my grandfathers and my father. bomb the shit out of the subhuman enemy... that's what we pay the big bucks for.  not to muck about in the dirt.
my rolleyes was based on a couple friends and some friend's siblings that i know.
they may be suckers (in my estimation), but they certainly aren't unintelligent, or badwrong for doing it....

so, your statement was your own view, and not a sarcastic impression of what the 'top brass' might think, as that screeching nogood pesky guy indicated?

No, it's basically how the military machine views infantry. However, in a volunteer army, during times of war being fought on the ground, signing up to be infantry is pretty fucking retarded, in my estimation.

Two words: foot soldiers.

Anyone with any viable skills to avoid being a foot soldier can and should utilize those skills. For a long time, the US didn't have much use for foot soldiers because we weren't at war, and when we did engage in "police actions" it rarely involved ground forces, but right now there's a pretty heavy need for them so a higher proportion are being signed up as infantry. "Too stupid to do anything but die" can be, if you wish, translated to "lacking skills to keep them out of the highest-risk, most disposable position in the military".
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 17, 2009, 06:00:22 pm
Way to get the thread back on topic, Cain.
Quote
Led by Thatcher, western governments told the countries of the former Soviet Bloc that if they wanted prosperity, they had to import the free market.  The notion that one set of policies could have the same beneficial results in the widely different former countries of the Soviet Bloc was absurd, but it was of a piece of the mindset of the International Monetary Fund that had imposed similar policies on highly dissimilar countries, such as Indonesia, Nigeria and Peru.  Along with the bureaucrats of the IMF, emissaries were dispatched to the post-communist lands, carrying the same draft constitutions in their briefcases.  No matter how discrepant the countries they descended on, these neo-liberal ideologues tried to impose the same model on them all.

The IMF is also an international loan shark, loaning billions to these same countries for "infrastructure" and "development." This money ends up getting embezzled at just about every step of the bureaucracy, which leaves little to improve infrastructure and help out anyone who doesn't work for the government. Then that government is in massive debt to the IMF forever. The IMF and its neo-liberal policies are great for maintaining colonialism now that it can't be done directly.


IMF loans are just means to another end.

The conditionals which allow countries to apply for those loans send a nation into economic shock, bringing the prices of companies placed there way below what they would normally be in a functioning economy.

One of the conditions of the IMF's loan system is privatization of government owned companies.  So guess who gets to buy previous government monopolies, on the cheap, and then, once the regulatory system is gutted (another IMF conditional), ramp up the prices until the plebs bleed?

The loans, while useful, are really only bait in this process, a dangling, shiney object which opens up doors to buying some serious real estate and infrastructure.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Elder Iptuous on July 17, 2009, 06:05:10 pm
Nigel,
the umbrage comes from equating lack of skills to stupidity.  i've known some skilled idiots and unskilled intellectuals.
and there are some that view seeking the dangerous, but necessary, position of foot soldier as being honorable in some sense, and would pass up other, less dangerous, positions that they may be perfectly suited for.
does that make sense?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Verbal Mike on July 18, 2009, 01:31:25 am
there are some that view seeking the dangerous, but necessary, position of foot soldier as being honorable in some sense, and would pass up other, less dangerous, positions that they may be perfectly suited for.
does that make sense?
Well, yeah, if you're stupid.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Elder Iptuous on July 18, 2009, 02:55:40 am
Well, yeah, if you're stupid.
:lulz:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 19, 2009, 08:11:52 am
Nigel,
the umbrage comes from equating lack of skills to stupidity.



Anyone who thinks the modern infantry isn't a skilled trade has no clue what they're talking about.  Fucking seriously.  It takes a year at the unit just to make a barely competent infantryman.  Eight million little skills that you've never had experience with ANYWHERE, even if you're a hunting nut, etc...but now I am told that cleaning a machine gun at night, or moving a squad through a swamp with no discernable landmarks, or plotting artillery support, or setting an FPL, removing landmines without the kaboom, treating a bullet wound or gas casualty, or...well, fuck it.  You don't know, you don't WANT to know, you simply want to sneer at someone for a PERCEIVED lack of intelligence or skills.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 19, 2009, 08:12:35 am
"Infantry" is code for "too stupid to do anything but die", sadly.

 :sad:

TGRR,
Infantry Grunt 1987-1996.

Congratulations on not getting killed.

Apparently, I was too stupid to die.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 19, 2009, 04:57:59 pm
Nigel,
the umbrage comes from equating lack of skills to stupidity.



Anyone who thinks the modern infantry isn't a skilled trade has no clue what they're talking about.  Fucking seriously.  It takes a year at the unit just to make a barely competent infantryman.  Eight million little skills that you've never had experience with ANYWHERE, even if you're a hunting nut, etc...but now I am told that cleaning a machine gun at night, or moving a squad through a swamp with no discernable landmarks, or plotting artillery support, or setting an FPL, removing landmines without the kaboom, treating a bullet wound or gas casualty, or...well, fuck it.  You don't know, you don't WANT to know, you simply want to sneer at someone for a PERCEIVED lack of intelligence or skills.



I'm not talking about lack of skill. I'm talking about signing up to be a foot soldier during wartime, and not having the skills or background to get out of it. I already clarified in an earlier post that "too stupid to do anything but die" is the impression I get of how infantry is viewed by the people signing them up. If you doubt that, look up "cannon fodder" and ask me if I made it up.

I ALSO clarified that my own personal take on it is that you have to be either suicidal or retarded to sign up to be in the group who takes the heaviest casualties, during a fucking ground war.

They teach you skills once you're in, sure. Training is one thing. It being hard has no bearing on whether it's smart, and if you had any special skills to get you the fuck out of doing that, would you still have signed up for it? Would you sign up for it now, knowing you'd get sent to Afghanistan to have your legs shot off? If yes, there's something not all there in your head. IMO.

You can call that sneering if you like, but fuck you. I have a lot of respect for what soldiers do, on one hand, but on the other hand I think joining the Army is completely fucking insane and stupid, especially during wartime. Yeah, my dad is a career soldier, an airborne Ranger special ops etc etc, and the guy is very intelligent and one of the most badass people you could ever meet, but he's also not all there in the head in some peculiar way I can't quite define.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 19, 2009, 10:59:05 pm


I ALSO clarified that my own personal take on it is that you have to be either suicidal or retarded to sign up to be in the group who takes the heaviest casualties, during a fucking ground war.

Infantry doesn't take the heaviest casualties.  Hasn't since WWI.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 19, 2009, 11:04:25 pm
Signals Corps or your equivalent does, doesn't it?  I'm pretty sure they have one of the highest death rates in the British Army, but given our current military malaise, that doesn't necessarily mean much.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 19, 2009, 11:07:37 pm
Signals Corps or your equivalent does, doesn't it?  I'm pretty sure they have one of the highest death rates in the British Army, but given our current military malaise, that doesn't necessarily mean much.

In LIC, it tends to be spread evenly amongst everyone EXCEPT the infantry (why would they attack the one unit equipped to fight them?).  Inside of infantry units, integral RTOs (radiomen) take it the hardest, followed by officers and medics.

In big honking wars, it's the artillery and transport geeks that take it in the neck, followed by aircraft support jerks.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 19, 2009, 11:11:19 pm
Makes sense.  Insurgents aren't stupid, and if I was running a decent sized state's military, I'd want to take out your logistics and targeting/long range capacity too.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on July 19, 2009, 11:23:24 pm
Makes sense.  Insurgents aren't stupid, and if I was running a decent sized state's military, I'd want to take out your logistics and targeting/long range capacity too.

Also, why fight the people trained to fight you, when you can just drive an extra 4 blocks and attack the mailroom?

Same propaganda victory, less risk.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on July 20, 2009, 03:54:49 pm
Precisely.  I mean, I'm sure some insurgents do, but that is how evolution works.

Also, I found this an amusing riposte against the libertarians of Reason (from an anarchist, no less):

Quote
I think we can all admit that while the boys at Reason are good on SWAT excesses and legalizing the devil weed, their, uh, libertarian economics leaves a lot to be desired. A miasma of hands-off, "market economy" platitudes, it confuses corporate state capitalism with the free exchange of goods and labor as surely as MSNBC confuses the Dow with "the economy." This leads to some curious analytical exercises, such as this WaPo op-ed in which Welch and Gillespie argue rightly that Barack Obama is a spendthrift who has aped his immediate predecessor in creating a state of incessant national crisis to justify a series of hastily constructed, ill-considered emergency measures, even as they yearn, like a pair of swear-to-god, gen-you-whine Democratic bloggers, for a return to the baller days of America under "the man from Hope," that priapic demiurge, William Jefferson Clinton, the first Black president, himself.

Well, I am overstating, but in praising Clinton's "generally free-market economic policies," they are intent on overlooking the central role of Clinton and Alan Greenspan in our current economic woes, the creditization and bubbleization of the American economy, the exponential growth of "financial services," the creation of the subprime industry, the recasting of private real estate as little more than a twice-held gambling chit, with which homeowners could buy ever more junk for the ever-growing houses in which they ever-more-temporarily resided, with which mortgage-backers and -holders could leverage ever-more-preposterous Ponzi-scheme investment strategies, to the tune of billions, hundreds of billions, trillions of dollars. Of course, at Reason Magazine you can still read John Stossel on how the government forced banks to lend money to poor niggers, thus destroying the universe. Which is a measure of something or other, but not economic acumen, nor common sense.

Many self-professed libertarians, like Welch and Gillespie, praise the so-called deregulatory actions of Bill Clinton as his saving grace, when of course his government did what all recent American governments have done. If "deregulation" meant embracing a studied neutrality in matters of production, exchange, and trade, then it would be praisworthy. Instead, it simply means corporate favoritism, acting to lower the costs and responsibilities of the ownership class that they might still make their bonuses at the end of the fiscal year. Obama's zillion dollar subsidy to the financial sector that Bill Clinton created from the dust of the earth and one of Michael Milken's ribs is no break from the "free-market" instincts of his Democratic ancestor. It's just . . . America can't get high from a key bump anymore, and needs the dealer-in-chief to lay out some fatter rails.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on July 20, 2009, 04:11:25 pm
 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

Very nicely written screed.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Freeky on November 05, 2011, 01:22:13 pm
"Infantry" is code for "too stupid to do anything but die", sadly.

 :sad:

TGRR,
Infantry Grunt 1987-1996.

                  1987?  
                     /
(http://th07.deviantart.net/fs70/150/i/2010/289/8/6/awesome_smiley_gif_by_xxcrazycrackerxx-d30w9kt.png)
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Don Coyote on November 05, 2011, 01:46:41 pm
WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT????
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on November 05, 2011, 02:55:25 pm
This has to be one of the most retarded threads in the history of PD.

And I am including every post by Novatore and Cat~Maxwell in that assessment.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: East Coast Hustle on November 05, 2011, 03:26:36 pm
needs more face-raping bats.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Telarus on November 05, 2011, 05:28:41 pm
This has to be one of the most retarded threads in the history of PD.

And I am including every post by Novatore and Cat~Maxwell in that assessment.

 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

Novatore..  :lulz:  man, some of the PDX crowd seriously didn't get the vibe here. He's an good guy, but fell into the "have to be the weirdest bat in the cave" trap, as so many noobs have.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 05, 2011, 05:30:06 pm
This has to be one of the most retarded threads in the history of PD.

And I am including every post by Novatore and Cat~Maxwell in that assessment.

 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

Novatore..  :lulz:  man, some of the PDX crowd seriously didn't get the vibe here. He's an good guy, but fell into the "have to be the weirdest bat in the cave" trap, as so many noobs have.

Yeah, it kinda bums me out that the PDX disco crowd for the most part REALLY just doesn't get this place.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Telarus on November 05, 2011, 05:56:11 pm
I think we need to start hanging out more, dragging some of them along, and then using inside jokes until they burst with curiosity.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: East Coast Hustle on November 05, 2011, 07:19:31 pm
I fully approve of that plan.

The couple of PDX discospags I've met IRL that aren't part of PD were actually pretty cool.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 06, 2011, 02:12:50 am
Danny's started having PDX Occulture meetings again and they're really fun. Although they might not love it if a bunch of Discordians came and started making fun.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on November 06, 2011, 04:26:48 am
I just had a brainburp related to the thread title:

Yes. Everything is contradictory to Discordianism. That is sort of the point, except when it isn't.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 06, 2011, 05:05:57 am
I just had a brainburp related to the thread title:

Yes. Everything is contradictory to Discordianism. That is sort of the point, except when it isn't.

HA! Yes.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: PopeTom on November 06, 2011, 03:12:37 pm
Not going to wade through the entire thread but jst want to say.

True Libertarianism always works.

Unfortunately like Real Discordianism it can only be practiced by True Scotsmen.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Reginald Ret on November 06, 2011, 10:03:11 pm
Not going to wade through the entire thread but jst want to say.

True Libertarianism always works.

Unfortunately like Real Discordianism it can only be practiced by True Scotsmen.
And the only sugarless porridge left is in Erehwon :(
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on November 07, 2011, 10:08:47 am
Can we agree that none of us wants to be told what to do by others of us who don't know what the fuck they're doing?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on November 07, 2011, 10:21:39 am
Aha!  So you want to be ruled by a technocracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocrat), do you?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Faust on November 07, 2011, 12:08:39 pm
Aha!  So you want to be ruled by a technocracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocrat), do you?

As a member of the technoluminati I heartily approve.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on November 07, 2011, 12:10:50 pm
Wait. What did I just consent to here?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Faust on November 07, 2011, 12:14:32 pm
Wait. What did I just consent to here?

You just handed your decision making process over to the highly skilled, don't worry though, I'm an expert.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 07, 2011, 02:21:30 pm
Can we agree that none of us wants to be told what to do by others of us who don't know what the fuck they're doing?

Welcome to all of human history.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on November 07, 2011, 02:24:42 pm
I'd just like to remind everyone at this juncture that Larry Summers is considered a really smart economist and that Paul Wolfowitz is considered an expert in foreign affairs.

As I'm sure we can see, their influence on the practice of these two disciplines over the last couple of decades has been highly positive for mankind as a whole.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on May 01, 2012, 12:24:52 pm
2) Adam, when someone is diagnosed with cancer due to smoking, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars to treat.  The individual smoker doesn't pay that entire cost.  The rest of the public does.

Yes but it also costs hundreds of thousands if you die from something not related to smoking too.  Pretty much everyone will rack up a massive hospital bill towards the end.


While it's true that the overall cost of healthcare is about the same (possibly a little more for nonsmokers because they incur more costs over the span of their longer life) nonsmokers live longer and are productive for more years, paying more into the healthcare system over their life spans.

The argument about health costs for smoking is stupid, particularly now in light of the current administration's plans. Either healthcare is something everyone chips in on and helps out with, or people fund their own. You don't get to say "Well, I would like everyone to pay for healthcare together... also, you can't smoke because it will waste my money!"

I mean, hell what happens when some Christian fundie gets into office and decides that premarital sex is unacceptable because it costs too much in STD treatments, abortions, pregnancies etc? Or abortions aren't covered, or the Pill or ...

If universal healthcare is the goal, then it needs to be universal for all citizens, however they desire to spend their time. If thats not acceptable, then don't stick your money in the group kitty.


And this has been today's episode of Eerily Unintentional Irony.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: hirley0 on May 01, 2012, 01:16:40 pm
in OR they have A so called LAw
about doctor assisted Suicide | {aka death with dignigthy ?
-
in practice its not like this in my opinion | Just no help.
= =
what is needed is AfordABLE  death ! dieing is not the problem
bieng able to aford it is? { oh no  afford { oh ok
being able to afford it is THE PROBLEM STUPID!-!
: : :
MsRa IS NOT the answer? it siimply takes to long {IM/=/O)
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on May 01, 2012, 05:25:31 pm
Is it just me, or is a taste for bumping this thread contradictory to common sense?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: East Coast Hustle on May 01, 2012, 06:35:40 pm
:lulz:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Reginald Ret on May 04, 2012, 10:12:24 pm
Can we agree that none of us wants to be told what to do by others of us who don't know what the fuck they're doing?

Welcome to all of human history.
Those who know what they are doing are exactly the ones to avoid.
They tend to have 'good intentions'  :shudder:  :argh!:
Clueless fucks are easier to manipulate into doing what you want.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on May 05, 2012, 04:39:38 am
Can we agree that none of us wants to be told what to do by others of us who don't know what the fuck they're doing?

Welcome to all of human history.
Those who know what they are doing are exactly the ones to avoid.
They tend to have 'good intentions'  :shudder:  :argh!:
Clueless fucks are easier to manipulate into doing what you want.

I think Cain is right about this thread. Bumping this was one of my many poor decisions.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 08, 2013, 07:51:31 pm
It seems like "Libertarian" has become a dirty word lately. I'm not trying to sound alarmist with my tin-foil haberdashery but the current wave of extreme Progressivism feels oppressive and a little bit fascist to me.

Current wave of extreme progressivism?

It's 4 years later, and I still haven't seen that extreme progressivism.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 08, 2013, 07:58:25 pm
It seems like "Libertarian" has become a dirty word lately. I'm not trying to sound alarmist with my tin-foil haberdashery but the current wave of extreme Progressivism feels oppressive and a little bit fascist to me.

Current wave of extreme progressivism?

It's 4 years later, and I still haven't seen that extreme progressivism.

Well...no, I haven't seen any changes either.

Things change. My opinions change. There is such a thing as extreme progressivism and I remember when I wrote this, I'd had about ENOUGH of self-important, white liberals telling me I was stupid and saying stupid shit about government needing to outlaw THIS and tax THAT because I'm too stupid to be trusted to make my own decisions.

Bloomberg just tried this with soda in NY, as an example of what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 08, 2013, 08:00:54 pm
Things change. My opinions change. There is such a thing as extreme progressivism

Any dumbass can be extreme about ANYTHING.  That's what makes them dumbasses.

But there was never a "wave" of it.  A ripple, perhaps, buried under 2 wars, indefinite detention without trial, torture, drones, TARP, a 13th aircraft carrier, and the wholesale raping of the working class.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 08, 2013, 08:22:58 pm
Ripple, wave. Whatever. The exact phrasing I chose shouldn't be important. The length and breadth of my annoyance had more to do with being screeched at by the dumbasses in numbers around the time President Obama got in. There were a lot of motherfuckers with that "We won, get over it" ethic who probably genuinely believed the president was going to outlaw smoking and obesity, force everyone to buy hybrid vehicles and levy a 30% tax on Little Debbie snack cakes to pay for socialized medicine. I had them screaming in my ear all day long.

What actually happened is another story.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 08, 2013, 08:26:33 pm
Ripple, wave. Whatever. The exact phrasing I chose shouldn't be important.

Um.  There were a few million euphoric dumbasses.  For about a week.

Quote
There were a lot of motherfuckers with that "We won, get over it" ethic who probably genuinely believed the president was going to outlaw smoking and obesity, force everyone to buy hybrid vehicles and levy a 30% tax on Little Debbie snack cakes to pay for socialized medicine. I had them screaming in my ear all day long.

After the weasel-dancing done by the right in 2000 and 2008 (Get over it hippie, the adults are in charge, etc), that was gonna happen no matter what.

But the fact is, the fact that THEY didn't see and that YOU didn't see, was that Obama is about as socialist as the Koch brothers, that he's corporatist swine, and that THEY and YOU were busy swilling the Koolaid as dispensed by the two party con.

You were had.  So were they.

Welcome to America™.  You are doomed, and your children will drink filthy water for the rest of their lives.

Quote
What actually happened is another story.

Indeed.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 08, 2013, 08:51:14 pm
I think there were plenty of us who were dubious. Let me make this clear: I have NEVER been against social assistance. In spite of my libertarian leanings and my own massive love-affair with some the crap tumbling out of Glenn Beck's pie-hole, I was never on the "Hand 'em all a shovel and tell them to dig their own way out" train.

And the fear-mongering didn't prevent me from voting for his ass, either, now did it?

I had high hopes for the New Kid. The ridiculous "Obama's going to solve all my problems" people nauseated me because I think of government itself as stagnant and recalcitrant and I have a pretty realistic view that no matter how much someone wants to fix everything, they're going to hit road blocks and people they "owe."

I just didn't think it would be this bad.

There are dumbasses on both sides. I remember when John McCain proposed forcing everyone to buy from the corrupt insurance companies and the left RAGED about it. And rightfully so, it's a fucking stupid idea.

When Obama locked himself in a room with those same corporations and the current "affordable care act" was produced, these same voices were either silent or for it. Why?

Libertarian ideals, at their purest, unburdened by Koch and teaparty drivel are not inherently evil. Neither is socialism. These are ideas and they are tools. I believe a successful society is one which incorporates the best of anything that gets the job done with the least amount of infringement on personal choice. I like having libraries AND the right to remove the tracking software from my mobile phone. I like that there's a system in place to prevent Motorola and Honeywell from dumping any more shit into the ground water at Hassayampa. And I like being allowed to vape my e-juice without being told what flavors I can or can not have.

I want the drug war to end and to be allowed to munch quality, safe power-pellets but I still want to pay the same taxes so the money pays to educate those most at risk for ruining themselves with drugs and for the care they need if they get into trouble.

Why is that so hard? Why do people need to get on the same train and ride it into the depths of hell?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 08, 2013, 09:32:50 pm
Libertarian ideals, at their purest, unburdened by Koch and teaparty drivel are not inherently evil.

And communism would have worked out just fine if Stalin hadn't gotten ahold of it.

Or so I am told.

Fact:  Neither philosophy takes human nature into account, so neither philosophy works.  The Koch's and the teabaggers were going to happen, because that philosophy is tailor made to suit their ends.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 08, 2013, 09:35:57 pm
Libertarian ideals, at their purest, unburdened by Koch and teaparty drivel are not inherently evil.

And communism would have worked out just fine if Stalin hadn't gotten ahold of it.

Or so I am told.

Fact:  Neither philosophy takes human nature into account, so neither philosophy works.  The Koch's and the teabaggers were going to happen, because that philosophy is tailor made to suit their ends.

Right. That's why the best philosophy is an approach that prioritizes liberty without throwing common sense and social responsibility to the wind.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 08, 2013, 09:36:37 pm
Libertarian ideals, at their purest, unburdened by Koch and teaparty drivel are not inherently evil.

And communism would have worked out just fine if Stalin hadn't gotten ahold of it.

Or so I am told.

Fact:  Neither philosophy takes human nature into account, so neither philosophy works.  The Koch's and the teabaggers were going to happen, because that philosophy is tailor made to suit their ends.

Right. That's why the best philosophy is an approach that prioritizes liberty without throwing common sense and social responsibility to the wind.

And how's that working out for you, in real time?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 08, 2013, 09:52:52 pm
It's not because it's not happening that way in this country. We've thrown common sense and social responsibility to the wind. The people are being restricted while the government is at liberty to work in collusion with the corporate world to keep it that way.

We don't live in a Libertarian-Socialist society, we live in a fascist one.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 08, 2013, 09:53:40 pm
It's not because it's not happening that way in this country. We've thrown common sense and social responsibility to the wind. The people are being restricted while the government is at liberty to work in collusion with the corporate world to keep it that way.

We don't live in a Libertarian-Socialist society, we live in a fascist one.

That's right.  Because fascism is the default position for the human race.  Every time shit gets complex, here we are.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 08, 2013, 09:57:29 pm
So what's the solution?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 08, 2013, 09:58:04 pm
So what's the solution?

Historically?

A great big fucking war.  EVERY TIME.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 08, 2013, 10:01:09 pm
It certainly seems that way.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Pergamos on April 08, 2013, 10:02:12 pm
It's not because it's not happening that way in this country. We've thrown common sense and social responsibility to the wind. The people are being restricted while the government is at liberty to work in collusion with the corporate world to keep it that way.

We don't live in a Libertarian-Socialist society, we live in a fascist one.

You do realize Libertarian Socialist isn't some new political philosophy you just came up with and is actually synonymous with Anarchism right?  It's the original meaning of the word Libertarian, before the American Libertarian-Capitalists got ahold of it.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 08, 2013, 10:03:46 pm
It's not because it's not happening that way in this country. We've thrown common sense and social responsibility to the wind. The people are being restricted while the government is at liberty to work in collusion with the corporate world to keep it that way.

We don't live in a Libertarian-Socialist society, we live in a fascist one.

You do realize Libertarian Socialist isn't some new political philosophy you just came up with and is actually synonymous with Anarchism right?  It's the original meaning of the word Libertarian, before the American Libertarian-Capitalists got ahold of it.

Yep. I believe in heavily-unioned Anarchy and a big "fuck you" to the corporate world.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Pergamos on April 08, 2013, 10:07:54 pm
It's not because it's not happening that way in this country. We've thrown common sense and social responsibility to the wind. The people are being restricted while the government is at liberty to work in collusion with the corporate world to keep it that way.

We don't live in a Libertarian-Socialist society, we live in a fascist one.

You do realize Libertarian Socialist isn't some new political philosophy you just came up with and is actually synonymous with Anarchism right?  It's the original meaning of the word Libertarian, before the American Libertarian-Capitalists got ahold of it.

Yep. I believe in heavily-unioned Anarchy and a big "fuck you" to the corporate world.

Ok, just checking since American Libertarians tend to think Libertarian Socialist is some kind of impossible contradiction.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 08, 2013, 10:08:31 pm
It's not because it's not happening that way in this country. We've thrown common sense and social responsibility to the wind. The people are being restricted while the government is at liberty to work in collusion with the corporate world to keep it that way.

We don't live in a Libertarian-Socialist society, we live in a fascist one.

You do realize Libertarian Socialist isn't some new political philosophy you just came up with and is actually synonymous with Anarchism right?  It's the original meaning of the word Libertarian, before the American Libertarian-Capitalists got ahold of it.

Yep. I believe in heavily-unioned Anarchy and a big "fuck you" to the corporate world.

Ok, just checking since American Libertarians tend to think Libertarian Socialist is some kind of impossible contradiction.

I gotta ask, where has it worked?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 08, 2013, 10:09:26 pm
That's why I usually just say "Left-leaning Libertarian" to keep people from giving me an ice-cream headache from all the frozen stupids they throw at my head.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 08, 2013, 10:10:46 pm
That's why I usually just say "Left-leaning Libertarian" to keep people from giving me an ice-cream headache from all the frozen stupids they throw at my head.

I am a reptillian-leaning mammal.   

:lord:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 08, 2013, 10:16:25 pm
It has and it hasn't. If you remove all the brown people we fucked-over from the equation, you could say it worked here for a little while...but not really.

The truth is, it's never been successfully pulled off but I can't stop trying because the alternative is to either accept the shit they put in front of us or live in a constant state of either war, or someone getting fucked as we vacillate wildly between alternating groups revolting and taking power then oppressing and murdering those who oppressed them.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 08, 2013, 10:21:25 pm
It has and it hasn't. If you remove all the brown people we fucked-over from the equation, you could say it worked here for a little while...but not really.

The truth is, it's never been successfully pulled off but I can't stop trying because the alternative is to either accept the shit they put in front of us or live in a constant state of either war, or someone getting fucked as we vacillate wildly between alternating groups revolting and taking power then oppressing and murdering those who oppressed them.

Doesn't work.

Something new is required.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 08, 2013, 10:52:02 pm
What is that new thing? I'm all ears. If it makes me small-minded or something that I can't think of it, I'm willing to accept that but I want to know.

We need a system where:
1. Resources belong to everyone and can not be hoarded or owned past a person's lifetime - no more winning the uterine lottery
2. Corporations are permitted to do business by The People and can be disbanded at-will if they fuck shit up and/or fail to toe-the-line.
3. Business is truly competitive and fosters innovation over stupid shit like market share.
4. Banks BELONG to the people.
5. Medicine is relatively non-profit while good practitioners and innovators are rewarded moderately.
6. Everyone gladly pays taxes for shit like education, food cleanliness, waste management, social programs and defense programs that don't encourage dumbshits to go around raping other countries. DEfense, not Offense.
7. Unions are encouraged and lauded but kept in-check and made to adhere to human rights standards.
8. Government is truly representative and representatives are Public Servants, not career-hustlers and shills. Term limits and "Vote of no-confidence" come readily to mind.
9. There exists a built-in plan to handle scientific and technological advances which embraces its benefits in a way which favors popular application instead of the top-down model that's been developing.
10. People at the smallest unit are at liberty to do and say and eat and fuck and write whatever/whoever the fuck they want without hurting anyone until and unless it becomes a problem or an essential need is identified that lies in contradiction.
11. Socialized resources are encouraged and enjoyed and seen as wise: If 20, 000 people each have one book, they each have a book. If we pool them, WE have a library.

There's some other stuff but that's where I'm at.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 08, 2013, 10:53:52 pm
What is that new thing? I'm all ears.

You tell me, you're the one out to fix things.

All I'm saying is that you are continuing to attempt something that doesn't work, in response to a problem.  If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.  If you keep trying, it still won't work, because it can't work.  Something new should be tried.

TGRR,
Is, at the moment, content to let the world burn.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: AFK on April 08, 2013, 10:59:49 pm
What is that new thing? I'm all ears. If it makes me small-minded or something that I can't think of it, I'm willing to accept that but I want to know.

We need a system where:
1. Resources belong to everyone and can not be hoarded or owned past a person's lifetime - no more winning the uterine lottery
2. Corporations are permitted to do business by The People and can be disbanded at-will if they fuck shit up and/or fail to toe-the-line.
3. Business is truly competitive and fosters innovation over stupid shit like market share.
4. Banks BELONG to the people.
5. Medicine is relatively non-profit while good practitioners and innovators are rewarded moderately.
6. Everyone gladly pays taxes for shit like education, food cleanliness, waste management, social programs and defense programs that don't encourage dumbshits to go around raping other countries. DEfense, not Offense.
7. Unions are encouraged and lauded but kept in-check and made to adhere to human rights standards.
8. Government is truly representative and representatives are Public Servants, not career-hustlers and shills. Term limits and "Vote of no-confidence" come readily to mind.
9. There exists a built-in plan to handle scientific and technological advances which embraces its benefits in a way which favors popular application instead of the top-down model that's been developing.
10. People at the smallest unit are at liberty to do and say and eat and fuck and write whatever/whoever the fuck they want without hurting anyone until and unless it becomes a problem or an essential need is identified that lies in contradiction.
11. Socialized resources are encouraged and enjoyed and seen as wise: If 20, 000 people each have one book, they each have a book. If we pool them, WE have a library.

There's some other stuff but that's where I'm at.


Heh, if you aren't factoring REAL people in the equation this might work.


Maybe you can get it to work in a Sims game.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on April 08, 2013, 11:07:33 pm
What is that new thing? I'm all ears. If it makes me small-minded or something that I can't think of it, I'm willing to accept that but I want to know.

We need a system where:
1. Resources belong to everyone and can not be hoarded or owned past a person's lifetime - no more winning the uterine lottery
2. Corporations are permitted to do business by The People and can be disbanded at-will if they fuck shit up and/or fail to toe-the-line.
3. Business is truly competitive and fosters innovation over stupid shit like market share.
4. Banks BELONG to the people.
5. Medicine is relatively non-profit while good practitioners and innovators are rewarded moderately.
6. Everyone gladly pays taxes for shit like education, food cleanliness, waste management, social programs and defense programs that don't encourage dumbshits to go around raping other countries. DEfense, not Offense.
7. Unions are encouraged and lauded but kept in-check and made to adhere to human rights standards.
8. Government is truly representative and representatives are Public Servants, not career-hustlers and shills. Term limits and "Vote of no-confidence" come readily to mind.
9. There exists a built-in plan to handle scientific and technological advances which embraces its benefits in a way which favors popular application instead of the top-down model that's been developing.
10. People at the smallest unit are at liberty to do and say and eat and fuck and write whatever/whoever the fuck they want without hurting anyone until and unless it becomes a problem or an essential need is identified that lies in contradiction.
11. Socialized resources are encouraged and enjoyed and seen as wise: If 20, 000 people each have one book, they each have a book. If we pool them, WE have a library.

There's some other stuff but that's where I'm at.


Yeah, well you can think of all the perfect-world scenarios you want, but there's just one problem: US. Who's going to be in charge of making sure all of this Gets Done? Why would these people be immune from corruption? Who's going to watch the Watchers, that is? And who's going to watch the Watcher Watchers? And so on.

Who gets to decide how much one person "needs" to survive? Who decides what "compensated moderately" means? I mean, the ideals here are great, but you might as well make a one-sentence Constitution that says "We the People hereby establish a System that Doesn't Suck Too Much," get it ratified, and then send it sailing out into the Real World to be smashed and devoured by a bunch of pissed off apes.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 12:07:46 am
It's utopia and utopia hasn't worked yet so Roger's right but I believe that the formation of a society under the acceptance these basic values would go a long way towards achieving at least a little less of a chasm between levels of privilege.

And this goes for each and every one of us, even at the lower levels. A dude working as a surgeon for some multiple-six-figure salary believes himself (and WE tend to push the idea too!) entitled to a vastly (disproportionately) higher level of socioeconomic privilege simply because he went to school for six years, put in a lot of work and effort and does a job that's highly skilled, somewhat altruistic and very essential. But it ceases to be altruistic, the moment he demands a higher station and I daresay, it ceases to be of as much value to society when it becomes cost-prohibitive to a good portion of society and further widens the chasms between us.

I agree with profit-as-a-motivator and I believe that his hard work and altruism should be rewarded with a bit more in the way of buying power and societal benefits but in a more organic way. He must negotiate the costs and value of his services with the people who need to purchase them and they must be reasonable. This is preservation of liberty that is meaningful. He's free to sell his services in a way that earns him a higher level of comfort but not an inordinate amount of power.

I also believe that his investment costs (IE: his education) should be far lower. It is of benefit to us all to ensure we make becoming a doctor a more accessible venture to people who want to do that. Just this one thing will reduce the exclusive nature (and sense of entitlement) of his little club.

But the biggest thing we need to address is the getting people to accept that anyone who toils in labor for someone for 40 hours a week is entitled to a living. Period. If you like the cheeseburgers enough to eat them and facilitate someone flipping them then the person flipping them is of value enough to spend his days making your burger and therefore, deserves a living wage. If you can't afford $10 for a cheeseburger, the company will eventually face the need to either lower their prices and accept a more realistic profit margin, or go out of business but we will not accept their paying Paul the burger-flipper a pittance, dumping their waste into the groundwater, evade paying taxes and continuing to turn any sort of profit. Attempts to circumvent the rules results in sanctions and disbandment so there's a lot of motivation there between the stockholders and the employees to ensure the rules are followed. You can sell or eat anything you want but you can't fuck people over to do it.

This is trickle-UP economics.

What we have now is a perception of liberty that rewards entities for what they can "get away with" and then protects them from having anyone address the issue when it becomes a problem. Not only are they entitled to keep the spoils, but also are they allowed to establish the perpetuation of their abuses as entitlements under the flag of "Liberty." "What I'm doing is oppressive but you can't stop me because that would be oppression!"

A flexible system that puts the power back into the hands of the people, represented by union leaders instead of aristocratic representatives over whom they have little control, under the direction of use of common sense but with adherence to a central code of basic human rights and liberties forces people to stop choosing their favorite racehorse, locking themselves down and rooting for that motherfucker even after it's thrown the rider and is trampling everyone in the stands.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 12:09:29 am
It's utopia and utopia hasn't worked yet so Roger's right but I believe that the formation of a society under the acceptance these basic values would go a long way towards achieving at least a little less of a chasm between levels of privilege.

And this goes for each and every one of us, even at the lower levels. A dude working as a surgeon for some multiple-six-figure salary believes himself (and WE tend to push the idea too!) entitled to a vastly (disproportionately) higher level of socioeconomic privilege simply because he went to school for six years, put in a lot of work and effort and does a job that's highly skilled, somewhat altruistic and very essential. But it ceases to be altruistic, the moment he demands a higher station and I daresay, it ceases to be of as much value to society when it becomes cost-prohibitive to a good portion of society and further widens the chasms between us.

Um, that's not privilege, that's earned.

Now, how he GOT into college or how he PAID for it may be related to privilege, but a medical doctorate is not by anyone's standard "privilege", as privilege is something that happens to you, and an MD is something you attain.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 12:53:50 am
It's utopia and utopia hasn't worked yet so Roger's right but I believe that the formation of a society under the acceptance these basic values would go a long way towards achieving at least a little less of a chasm between levels of privilege.

And this goes for each and every one of us, even at the lower levels. A dude working as a surgeon for some multiple-six-figure salary believes himself (and WE tend to push the idea too!) entitled to a vastly (disproportionately) higher level of socioeconomic privilege simply because he went to school for six years, put in a lot of work and effort and does a job that's highly skilled, somewhat altruistic and very essential. But it ceases to be altruistic, the moment he demands a higher station and I daresay, it ceases to be of as much value to society when it becomes cost-prohibitive to a good portion of society and further widens the chasms between us.

Um, that's not privilege, that's earned.

Now, how he GOT into college or how he PAID for it may be related to privilege, but a medical doctorate is not by anyone's standard "privilege", as privilege is something that happens to you, and an MD is something you attain.

Okay, I'm misunderstanding something. Does he not earn himself a higher level of privilege that stays with him perpetually thereafter? Or is privilege limited to that inherent to factors he can not change like birth status and age?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 12:58:39 am
It's utopia and utopia hasn't worked yet so Roger's right but I believe that the formation of a society under the acceptance these basic values would go a long way towards achieving at least a little less of a chasm between levels of privilege.

And this goes for each and every one of us, even at the lower levels. A dude working as a surgeon for some multiple-six-figure salary believes himself (and WE tend to push the idea too!) entitled to a vastly (disproportionately) higher level of socioeconomic privilege simply because he went to school for six years, put in a lot of work and effort and does a job that's highly skilled, somewhat altruistic and very essential. But it ceases to be altruistic, the moment he demands a higher station and I daresay, it ceases to be of as much value to society when it becomes cost-prohibitive to a good portion of society and further widens the chasms between us.

Um, that's not privilege, that's earned.

Now, how he GOT into college or how he PAID for it may be related to privilege, but a medical doctorate is not by anyone's standard "privilege", as privilege is something that happens to you, and an MD is something you attain.

Okay, I'm misunderstanding something. Does he not earn himself a higher level of privilege that stays with him perpetually thereafter? Or is privilege limited to that inherent to factors he can not change like birth status and age?

Privilege is when you enjoy benefits that you didn't earn, as I understand it.

Example:  Not being born in Darfur.

Example:  Being born a white male in a middle class family.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on April 09, 2013, 04:32:03 am
What is that new thing? I'm all ears. If it makes me small-minded or something that I can't think of it, I'm willing to accept that but I want to know.

We need a system where:
1. Resources belong to everyone and can not be hoarded or owned past a person's lifetime - no more winning the uterine lottery
2. Corporations are permitted to do business by The People and can be disbanded at-will if they fuck shit up and/or fail to toe-the-line.
3. Business is truly competitive and fosters innovation over stupid shit like market share.
4. Banks BELONG to the people.
5. Medicine is relatively non-profit while good practitioners and innovators are rewarded moderately.
6. Everyone gladly pays taxes for shit like education, food cleanliness, waste management, social programs and defense programs that don't encourage dumbshits to go around raping other countries. DEfense, not Offense.
7. Unions are encouraged and lauded but kept in-check and made to adhere to human rights standards.
8. Government is truly representative and representatives are Public Servants, not career-hustlers and shills. Term limits and "Vote of no-confidence" come readily to mind.
9. There exists a built-in plan to handle scientific and technological advances which embraces its benefits in a way which favors popular application instead of the top-down model that's been developing.
10. People at the smallest unit are at liberty to do and say and eat and fuck and write whatever/whoever the fuck they want without hurting anyone until and unless it becomes a problem or an essential need is identified that lies in contradiction.
11. Socialized resources are encouraged and enjoyed and seen as wise: If 20, 000 people each have one book, they each have a book. If we pool them, WE have a library.

There's some other stuff but that's where I'm at.

I notice nowhere on that list is "and have a BIG FUCKING ARMY, preferably backed by nuclear weapons with a second strike capacity".

Because that's what you'd need to keep any of this.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 04:36:08 am
An adequate navy isn't enough?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on April 09, 2013, 04:44:29 am
 :lulz:

That's a no.

You do know what happens to countries who try to kick corporations out or effectively seize their assets?  Subversion, terrorism and coups.  And then rounding people up and mass deaths.  Torture.  Rape normally figures somewhere into the scheme of things.

Of course, having a big army may not necessarily be enough.  Can you really trust your officers?  Allende couldn't.  Are your institutions developed enough that a potential coup can be offset by civilian led government working with loyalist elements of the armed forces?  Venezuela didnt, and it was only because the coup plot was betrayed before it started that Chavez was able to hold onto power.  Nuclear weapons are the only way to guarantee any kind of kids gloves style treatment, because the status quo is always preferable to free range nukes, however distasteful (see: Pakistan, Russia defaulting on its debts in the 1990s for more).

As soon as you start fucking around with FDI, people with lots of money in Beijing, and Moscow, and Frankfurt and London, get "concerned."  That concern somehow ends up magically taking the form of spooks and mercenaries running amok causing maximum disruption.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 04:45:38 am
:lulz:

That's a no.

You do know what happens to countries who try to kick corporations out or effectively seize their assets?  Subversion, terrorism and coups.  And then rounding people up and mass deaths.  Torture.  Rape normally figures somewhere into the scheme of things.



Or sometimes they just get cancer out of nowhere.  Evita Peron comes to mind, as does Hugo Chavez.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on April 09, 2013, 04:55:43 am
Indeed (http://www.madcowprod.com/2013/03/08/who-killed-hugo-chavez/). 

Quote
So, did the CIA ‘give’ Hugo Chavez cancer? No one knows.

On the other hand, something is known on a more interesting question: “Could the CIA have given Chavez cancer?

There is good evidence, from at least three separate sources, which indicates the Agency has been taking the question of whether they could develop ways to induce cancer very seriously… for the past 50 years.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 05:02:52 am
Indeed (http://www.madcowprod.com/2013/03/08/who-killed-hugo-chavez/). 

Quote
So, did the CIA ‘give’ Hugo Chavez cancer? No one knows.

On the other hand, something is known on a more interesting question: “Could the CIA have given Chavez cancer?

There is good evidence, from at least three separate sources, which indicates the Agency has been taking the question of whether they could develop ways to induce cancer very seriously… for the past 50 years.

Ask Jack Ruby about that one.  I'm not a Kennedy assassination nut, but his access to the spot where he killed Oswald was weird, and his cancer was kind of convenient.  The only reason I'm not convinced it was somehow induced is that he didn't croak until 1967.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on April 09, 2013, 05:11:11 am
Yeah.  I'm not so sure about the cancer death aspect myself, but based on everything I know, the killing of Oswald was more than convenient.  And Ruby himself was the kinda of guy whose...lifestyle no doubt made him very susceptible to blackmail and similar.  Not to mention the whole Company-Family partnership to take down Castro.  Carlos Marcello had good personal reasons to want Kennedy dead, in addition to the Cuba/Casinos issue, and we know he was in contact with Jack Ruby before the assassination (along with Santos Trafficante Jr, the mafia "point man" for all things Cuban).
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 08:13:07 am
I wonder if his cigarettes started tasting funny for awhile before he was even hired.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 09, 2013, 08:37:13 am
It's not because it's not happening that way in this country. We've thrown common sense and social responsibility to the wind. The people are being restricted while the government is at liberty to work in collusion with the corporate world to keep it that way.

We don't live in a Libertarian-Socialist society, we live in a fascist one.

We are a society that has completely abandoned collectivism as a potential part of a functioning society, and won't even give it a passing thought. This thread is a testament to that.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 02:15:14 pm
It's not because it's not happening that way in this country. We've thrown common sense and social responsibility to the wind. The people are being restricted while the government is at liberty to work in collusion with the corporate world to keep it that way.

We don't live in a Libertarian-Socialist society, we live in a fascist one.

We are a society that has completely abandoned collectivism as a potential part of a functioning society, and won't even give it a passing thought. This thread is a testament to that.

That's lame. To some degree, Collectivism just is.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on April 09, 2013, 03:32:49 pm
What is that new thing? I'm all ears. If it makes me small-minded or something that I can't think of it, I'm willing to accept that but I want to know.

We need a system where:
1. Resources belong to everyone and can not be hoarded or owned past a person's lifetime - no more winning the uterine lottery
2. Corporations are permitted to do business by The People and can be disbanded at-will if they fuck shit up and/or fail to toe-the-line.
3. Business is truly competitive and fosters innovation over stupid shit like market share.
4. Banks BELONG to the people.
5. Medicine is relatively non-profit while good practitioners and innovators are rewarded moderately.
6. Everyone gladly pays taxes for shit like education, food cleanliness, waste management, social programs and defense programs that don't encourage dumbshits to go around raping other countries. DEfense, not Offense.
7. Unions are encouraged and lauded but kept in-check and made to adhere to human rights standards.
8. Government is truly representative and representatives are Public Servants, not career-hustlers and shills. Term limits and "Vote of no-confidence" come readily to mind.
9. There exists a built-in plan to handle scientific and technological advances which embraces its benefits in a way which favors popular application instead of the top-down model that's been developing.
10. People at the smallest unit are at liberty to do and say and eat and fuck and write whatever/whoever the fuck they want without hurting anyone until and unless it becomes a problem or an essential need is identified that lies in contradiction.
11. Socialized resources are encouraged and enjoyed and seen as wise: If 20, 000 people each have one book, they each have a book. If we pool them, WE have a library.

There's some other stuff but that's where I'm at.

Here's the problem:  You have to map that onto a pack of domesticated apes, who (in large collectives) typically act more "ape" than "domesticated".  Due to biology and evolution, that factor cannot be changed.  If any point in your plan runs counter to pack mentality and heirarchy, you're going to have problems with it.

A second problem I just thought of: You can't build your 11 point plan from a blank slate of humans wandering around and looking to set up a society.  You have to completely derail an existing society's rules and cajole, convince, or force people to live that way.  And if you've noticed people are more reactionary/neophobic than progressive/neophilic.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 03:41:07 pm
That's why it's all a giant thought experiment.

But then, if we're going by tangibility in the current climate, I guess there ain't no difference between yours and mine, is there?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on April 09, 2013, 03:50:55 pm
My giant thought experiment is much simpler, and will work just as well as yours:


1. What if everyone was nice to each other?



As you can see, the problems resulting from your plan would be just about the same as the problems resulting from mine.



Humans.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Pergamos on April 09, 2013, 09:50:07 pm
Better to look at what we can do now.  If you want to spend $10 on a burger, with the cook and waiter getting a fair wage, it is an option...
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 10:02:29 pm
My giant thought experiment is much simpler, and will work just as well as yours:


1. What if everyone was nice to each other?



As you can see, the problems resulting from your plan would be just about the same as the problems resulting from mine.



Humans.

Better to look at what we can do now.  If you want to spend $10 on a burger, with the cook and waiter getting a fair wage, it is an option...


That is what I do now. Should I stop thinking and hoping for a broader system that facilitates that?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 10:07:03 pm
My giant thought experiment is much simpler, and will work just as well as yours:


1. What if everyone was nice to each other?



As you can see, the problems resulting from your plan would be just about the same as the problems resulting from mine.



Humans.

Better to look at what we can do now.  If you want to spend $10 on a burger, with the cook and waiter getting a fair wage, it is an option...


That is what I do now. Should I stop thinking and hoping for a broader system that facilitates that?

"Hope in one hand, shit in the other."
- Hunter S Thompson.

"Shit in one hand, shit in the other."
- JR "Bob" Dobbs.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Pergamos on April 09, 2013, 10:14:45 pm
My giant thought experiment is much simpler, and will work just as well as yours:


1. What if everyone was nice to each other?



As you can see, the problems resulting from your plan would be just about the same as the problems resulting from mine.



Humans.

Better to look at what we can do now.  If you want to spend $10 on a burger, with the cook and waiter getting a fair wage, it is an option...


That is what I do now. Should I stop thinking and hoping for a broader system that facilitates that?

Just depends on what actions you take to make it possible,  As long as you are building good systems, way to go, when you start tearing things down that is when you need to be more careful.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on April 09, 2013, 10:21:39 pm
30 pages and almost four years, and nobody's answered the original question yet!

"Yes. It is just you."

EOT
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 10:28:17 pm
30 pages and almost four years, and nobody's answered the original question yet!

"Yes. It is just you."

EOT

No, I think it isn't...unless you're spelling libertarianism with a capital "L."

I don't think it's the concept of prioritizing liberty within a social structure that sticks in people's craw, it's the brand.

No, I don't think it's just that, either. I think we've been able to set aside the branded concept quite a bit but there's a valid concern about prioritizing individual liberty to the point where nobody gives a shit about anyone but themselves and everyone relies on the existence of some lofty, charitable "safety net" to clean up the messes.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 09, 2013, 10:53:50 pm
30 pages and almost four years, and nobody's answered the original question yet!

"Yes. It is just you."

EOT

No, I think it isn't...unless you're spelling libertarianism with a capital "L."

I don't think it's the concept of prioritizing liberty within a social structure that sticks in people's craw, it's the brand.

No, I don't think it's just that, either. I think we've been able to set aside the branded concept quite a bit but there's a valid concern about prioritizing individual liberty to the point where nobody gives a shit about anyone but themselves and everyone relies on the existence of some lofty, charitable "safety net" to clean up the messes.

Actually, it's not the brand, and it's not laziness.  It's a combination of three things:

1.  Libertarians of almost every variety are shrill.  People don't listen, because the delivery is extremely unpleasant.

2.  The fucking REALITY of Libertarianism AS PRACTICED has been, well, TEABAGGER.

3.  The question was about Discordia, not the general public, you may recall.  We're not required to be joiners.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: tyrannosaurus vex on April 09, 2013, 11:00:40 pm
30 pages and almost four years, and nobody's answered the original question yet!

"Yes. It is just you."

EOT

No, I think it isn't...unless you're spelling libertarianism with a capital "L."

I don't think it's the concept of prioritizing liberty within a social structure that sticks in people's craw, it's the brand.

No, I don't think it's just that, either. I think we've been able to set aside the branded concept quite a bit but there's a valid concern about prioritizing individual liberty to the point where nobody gives a shit about anyone but themselves and everyone relies on the existence of some lofty, charitable "safety net" to clean up the messes.

Me being a douchebag for the sake of being a douchebag: I notice "Liberarianism" is capitalized in the title, but "discordianism" isn't.

Seriously though, I think if you're going to throw away the moniker of "libertarianism," then you're not really angling for libertarianism, you're angling for an increased emphasis on respect for personal liberty. That's commendable, but it isn't something that can be solved by implementing a new system. All systems encroach to whatever degree people will allow them to encroach (that's the nature of these systems); the inconvenient part is that how much you allow the system to encroach has less to do with how much you want it to encroach, and more to do with how motivated you are to actually stand up against it. And the more satisfied you are with your liberties, the less likely you are to stand up against a system you don't perceive as threatening you too much.

The problem with America was that, for a long time, it was too successful, at least for the groups of people privileged enough to have any power over the system. The American system does buckle fairly easily when it's confronted with people determined to change it, though, which we have seen throughout the 20th Century. But the bottom line is that if the system moves aside so you can do what you want for the most part, then you will go about your business and ignore where it is oppressing someone else, until that oppressed person or people speak up loudly enough for you to notice. That's just the way society works. And it isn't just America that works that way, it's every society.

My only point here is that "Freedom" is not something that can be instituted from the top down. It isn't a policy that can be passed, or the act of removing policy. It wasn't just pretty words when they said no government can grant or deny rights. It's the truth. Your rights are what you take; you can't stop the government from standing in the way: that's diametrically opposed to the nature of government. You have the right to do whatever you can get away with. If enough people decide to get away with something despite the consequences, then the government will back off. But it has to start with people choosing to be free to do something regardless of whether they're "supposed" to do it or not. They can't be made free as a result of public policy.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 11:02:28 pm
30 pages and almost four years, and nobody's answered the original question yet!

"Yes. It is just you."

EOT

No, I think it isn't...unless you're spelling libertarianism with a capital "L."

I don't think it's the concept of prioritizing liberty within a social structure that sticks in people's craw, it's the brand.

No, I don't think it's just that, either. I think we've been able to set aside the branded concept quite a bit but there's a valid concern about prioritizing individual liberty to the point where nobody gives a shit about anyone but themselves and everyone relies on the existence of some lofty, charitable "safety net" to clean up the messes.

Me being a douchebag for the sake of being a douchebag: I notice "Liberarianism" is capitalized in the title, but "discordianism" isn't.

Seriously though, I think if you're going to throw away the moniker of "libertarianism," then you're not really angling for libertarianism, you're angling for an increased emphasis on respect for personal liberty. That's commendable, but it isn't something that can be solved by implementing a new system. All systems encroach to whatever degree people will allow them to encroach (that's the nature of these systems); the inconvenient part is that how much you allow the system to encroach has less to do with how much you want it to encroach, and more to do with how motivated you are to actually stand up against it. And the more satisfied you are with your liberties, the less likely you are to stand up against a system you don't perceive as threatening you too much.

The problem with America was that, for a long time, it was too successful, at least for the groups of people privileged enough to have any power over the system. The American system does buckle fairly easily when it's confronted with people determined to change it, though, which we have seen throughout the 20th Century. But the bottom line is that if the system moves aside so you can do what you want for the most part, then you will go about your business and ignore where it is oppressing someone else, until that oppressed person or people speak up loudly enough for you to notice. That's just the way society works. And it isn't just America that works that way, it's every society.

My only point here is that "Freedom" is not something that can be instituted from the top down. It isn't a policy that can be passed, or the act of removing policy. It wasn't just pretty words when they said no government can grant or deny rights. It's the truth. Your rights are what you take; you can't stop the government from standing in the way: that's diametrically opposed to the nature of government. You have the right to do whatever you can get away with. If enough people decide to get away with something despite the consequences, then the government will back off. But it has to start with people choosing to be free to do something regardless of whether they're "supposed" to do it or not. They can't be made free as a result of public policy.

Fucking right on.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 09, 2013, 11:03:40 pm
The more I read it, the more yes.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Elder Iptuous on April 10, 2013, 02:45:03 pm
Seriously though, I think if you're going to throw away the moniker of "libertarianism," then you're not really angling for libertarianism, you're angling for an increased emphasis on respect for personal liberty. That's commendable, but it isn't something that can be solved by implementing a new system. All systems encroach to whatever degree people will allow them to encroach (that's the nature of these systems); the inconvenient part is that how much you allow the system to encroach has less to do with how much you want it to encroach, and more to do with how motivated you are to actually stand up against it. And the more satisfied you are with your liberties, the less likely you are to stand up against a system you don't perceive as threatening you too much.

The problem with America was that, for a long time, it was too successful, at least for the groups of people privileged enough to have any power over the system. The American system does buckle fairly easily when it's confronted with people determined to change it, though, which we have seen throughout the 20th Century. But the bottom line is that if the system moves aside so you can do what you want for the most part, then you will go about your business and ignore where it is oppressing someone else, until that oppressed person or people speak up loudly enough for you to notice. That's just the way society works. And it isn't just America that works that way, it's every society.

My only point here is that "Freedom" is not something that can be instituted from the top down. It isn't a policy that can be passed, or the act of removing policy. It wasn't just pretty words when they said no government can grant or deny rights. It's the truth. Your rights are what you take; you can't stop the government from standing in the way: that's diametrically opposed to the nature of government. You have the right to do whatever you can get away with. If enough people decide to get away with something despite the consequences, then the government will back off. But it has to start with people choosing to be free to do something regardless of whether they're "supposed" to do it or not. They can't be made free as a result of public policy.

that was really well put, man.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 10, 2013, 06:12:30 pm
RIGHT? I fucking love that so much.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Ben Shapiro on April 13, 2013, 07:43:20 am
Libertarians are just Republicans who want to smoke pot.

Libertarianism is anarchy for the rich, or anarchist that finally grew up.

Objectivism is satanism for the rich.

The closest thing that doesn't let people die, and starve, and leaves people the fuck alone is some sort of Progressive Libertarianism. I cling to Trans-Humanism more since it let's people born with defects have a fighting chance at life.

I make fun of the Right alot more than the left since it's easier, and they tend to get butthurt more. I draw the line of tolerance when the left tries to convince me gray faces, and political correctness is mandatory for a safer America. Lately I've been trolling feminists who actually think a Matriarchy is better than a Patriarchy, and also think women who actually enjoy hardcore,kinky sex, or make-up are spoon fed retarded.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 13, 2013, 07:44:50 am
Libertarians are just Republicans who want to smoke pot.

Libertarianism is anarchy for the rich, or anarchist that finally grew up.

Objectivism is satanism for the rich.

The closest thing that doesn't let people die, and starve, and leaves people the fuck alone is some sort of Progressive Libertarianism. I cling to Trans-Humanism more since it let's people born with defects have a fighting chance at life.

I make fun of the Right alot more than the left since it's easier, and they tend to get butthurt more. I draw the line of tolerance when the left tries to convince me gray faces, and political correctness is mandatory for safer America. Lately I've been trolling feminists who actually think a Matriarchy is better than a Patriarchy, and also think women who actually enjoy hardcore,kinky sex, or make-up are spoon fed retarded.

Any TRUE BELIEVERS do the trick for me.  I am not at all choosy, one fanatic = another.  They're FUNNY, because they're fanatics.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Ben Shapiro on April 13, 2013, 07:47:19 am
However, I think the RAW style of Libertarian and the current style are fairly different.


If we want to define "Libertarian" as being a position of "leave me the fuck alone, but help the disadvantaged," I think I could get behind that.

Of course, that doesn't answer the questions of roads, schools, mail, military, etc.


It's almost like there's a Godel's theorm of political philosophy.  Any system you choose is unable to solve all the problems inherent in social structure.

[edit: Rat is already answering some of this]

Classical Liberalism is pretty much the Libertarianism you are looking for LMNO. I refuse to call myself a liberal in AMERICA since that ideology is dead.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on April 13, 2013, 07:50:01 am
However, I think the RAW style of Libertarian and the current style are fairly different.


If we want to define "Libertarian" as being a position of "leave me the fuck alone, but help the disadvantaged," I think I could get behind that.

Of course, that doesn't answer the questions of roads, schools, mail, military, etc.


It's almost like there's a Godel's theorm of political philosophy.  Any system you choose is unable to solve all the problems inherent in social structure.

[edit: Rat is already answering some of this]

Classical Liberalism is pretty much the Libertarianism you are looking for LMNO. I refuse to call myself a liberal in AMERICA since that ideology is dead.

I call myself an asshat.  Everyone immediately assumes I'm on the other side.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Ben Shapiro on April 13, 2013, 07:51:48 am
btw, regarding the question in the OP

 - I believe the three most prolific discordians (Thornley, Hill, & Wilson) were libertarians, so the libertarian attitude is sown into the Principia and Illuminatus fabric. But I don't think that it's core enough that anti-libertarianism is anti-discordian. Discordianism is not an inherently political movement.

Correct motorcycle.

In fact, Kerry was a raging Maoist, then a raging Randroid then a raging anarchist, then just a raging nutter... I think he was more into exploring whatever new political philosophy popped up in front of him, rather than a strong belief in any one of them.

RAW on the other hand, was almost a progressive libertarian. He seemed to think the government should exist to provide useful assistance if necessary and shut the fuck up in general. "TSOG: The Thing That Ate The Constitution" has some great essays in it, IMO.


This is the liberal/libertarianism ideology I've been trying to connect people with. I'm trying to read more and more on to the origins more.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Ben Shapiro on April 13, 2013, 07:57:05 am
So, abolish all medical insurance, then?

And when someone's grandmother gets bone cancer and can't afford treatment, they die, yes?

Well, she's gonna die anyway at some point. Likely she won't have a very good time with the chemo and will waste away slowly while paying for the Doctor's kids to go to college and watching her family struggle to deal with their lives and her constant needs.

Personally, I'm all for optional government sponsored health care... as long as it doesn't come with mandates about what legal activites one can and cannot be involved in (smoking, fornication, gluttony etc). Educate people as to the dangers, sure... make any demands, hell no.

I've been wanting to see some sort of optional healthcare plan you can pay into, and also let people buy insurance across the state lines. I prefer a state/local healthcare plan versus a national to eliminate worthless red tape. I expect every $1 I give to give me back .80 cents, but not .25 cents compared to a national level in theory.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Ben Shapiro on April 13, 2013, 08:05:52 am
Also back to the OP question. You're butt-hurt learn to take criticism or keep crying.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on April 13, 2013, 08:59:32 am
The small 'l' libertarianism that most people talk about seems to be Classic Liberalism (as /b/earman said). Maximum freedum, minimal govermnment interference, civil liberties etc etc. Modern social liberalism drops minimal government and replaces it with a socially responsible government, while neo-classical liberalism gets labeled as Libertarianism and generally involves someone eating Ayn Rand with a little ketcup.

In my Discordia (as opposed to the Discordia for all you other spags) I once thought libertarianism was a good idea, then classic liberalism... but thats evolved as well.

Government is, in any form the imposition of order by monkeys and therefore doomed to be a mess. Real freedom only exists in personal life and personal choices. No government gives you freedoms, they simply con you into focusing on the freedoms that they don't take away from you. Oh sure, some governments may have an advantage or two over some others, but its all relative and its all absurd.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 13, 2013, 10:23:12 pm
Also back to the OP question. You're butt-hurt learn to take criticism or keep crying.

I don't feel butthurt.

I'm actually a lot more *whatever* about a lot of things than comes across when I'm ranting about a some shit. I don't like governments OR corporations in the business of legislating what I do with my body, what I carry, where I live, etc but I also see wisdom in socialized functions.

I guess more than anything, I'm butthurt that people seem to have this hard-and-fast idea in their heads that use of the word "libertarian" necessarily makes me a teabagger.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 13, 2013, 10:32:18 pm
Also back to the OP question. You're butt-hurt learn to take criticism or keep crying.

I don't feel butthurt.

I'm actually a lot more *whatever* about a lot of things than comes across when I'm ranting about a some shit. I don't like governments OR corporations in the business of legislating what I do with my body, what I carry, where I live, etc but I also see wisdom in socialized functions.

I guess more than anything, I'm butthurt that people seem to have this hard-and-fast idea in their heads that use of the word "libertarian" necessarily makes me a teabagger.

Is that actually an unreasonable assumption?

Is it unreasonable to expect that someone who identifies as a "conservative" is against gun control, and gay marriage?

Sure, there are exceptions, but is it an unreasonable expectation?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Pergamos on April 13, 2013, 10:49:29 pm
Like Nigel said, the terminology has changed.  It may be more conducive to communication if you describe yourself as an Anarchist.  Even Left-Libertarian doesn't convey what you are trying to convey since most left-Libertarians focus on civil issues first, but they still don't want any taxes.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: navkat on April 14, 2013, 12:33:24 am
I can't keep up. I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption but if people are going to assume, I hope they're onboard with me clarifying.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on April 14, 2013, 01:22:12 am
I can't keep up. I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption but if people are going to assume, I hope they're onboard with me clarifying.

Explain away... it's just that it's getting a little like explaining that "National Socialist" doesn't necessarily mean "Nazi".
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Faust on April 14, 2013, 01:28:43 am
I can't keep up. I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption but if people are going to assume, I hope they're onboard with me clarifying.

Explain away... it's just that it's getting a little like explaining that "National Socialist" doesn't necessarily mean "Nazi".

I was about to agree but the Golden Dawn is changing it's connotation quite quickly... I guess it's easier for a word to pick up the negative connotations then it is to lose them.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Doktor Howl on June 08, 2018, 10:22:54 pm
The biggest flaw in the OP is the weird belief that a social structure means you can't be an individualist.

You are far more likely to be yourself if you can be yourself and not have to worry about starving to death or dying of staph infection.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 08, 2018, 11:50:54 pm
You are far more likely to be yourself if you can be yourself and not have to worry about starving to death or dying of staph infection.
exactly this
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: shamelessPuck on June 22, 2018, 05:21:48 pm
The biggest flaw in the OP is the weird belief that a social structure means you can't be an individualist.

You are far more likely to be yourself if you can be yourself and not have to worry about starving to death or dying of staph infection.
Holy thread resurrection Batman!  I’ve been chewing through this thread for the past week and still didn’t expect that timeline jump.

Has anyone else read this https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/ (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/)
on the calcification of socioeconomic status in the US?  There’s a lot in there so it’s been on my mind the past few days, particularly the differences between the US and developed countries with lower intergenerational economic elasticity.  That collectivism that Nigel mentioned seems to be a big step towards not elevating the powerful at the expense of the weak.  Japan, who is substantially better than us in IGE, has that sense of community and collective support that we in the US have lost (what little we had to begin with).  Scandinavia is crushing it here, somehow having come to the conclusion that they shouldn’t let people die poor, homeless, and uninsured.  That whole “bootstrap” mentality here leaves US thinking that anyone not rich is, at best, too lazy to help themselves.

There are plenty of changes we could make in this current system to improve the situation, some incremental and some significant shifts: cutting the mortgage interest deduction, taxing investment income more, increasing education funding, increasing earned income tax credits, universal healthcare, basic income, or just upping the minimum wage would all help.  The problem is that there’s so much money and power going into keeping things status quo that it’s hard to muster enough energy to make any headway.

I still worry that Foucault was right in his analysis of power structures, and I’m sure there’s a need for Discordian injection of weirdness to shake things up, but however inherently flawed the system is there are sure to be ways we could make things a little less awful just by tweaking here and there.  Or maybe I’m just an ignorant optimist too stupid to realize that life is pain and suffering and we just have to take it.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on June 23, 2018, 03:37:26 am
You are far more likely to be yourself if you can be yourself and not have to worry about starving to death or dying of staph infection.
exactly this

Well this and the fact that they want to let corporations just run wild; what with corporations being a major producer of tyranny.

That said, they're otherwise better than the two major parties. We need a party that's like the libertarians when it comes to the behavior of individuals, but like the democrats when it comes to corporations and safety nets for poverty and disease.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: disco accordion on February 12, 2019, 08:16:15 am
I only know one libertarian, and I can't stand the fucker!
He use to be a good enough chap. He was one of the better conversationalists at my work, and I really liked having smoke breaks with him.
Then gamergate happened. Now his head is filled with shit.
It is like having a smoke with Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson's incel lovechild.
The libertarian angle is a more recent mutation with him, so I just assumed that it was being fed fed to him through an alt right tube of some sort.

It is strange... Before gamergate, I always kind of felt sorry for the guy. He was very humble, and very hard on himself.
Now he is very smug and arrogant. It is good that he lost the self loathing, but it is unfortunate that he is jerk now.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on February 12, 2019, 12:50:40 pm

It is like having a smoke with Ben Shapiro and Jordan Peterson's incel lovechild.



That's just... poetry.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on February 12, 2019, 07:05:23 pm
It's weird how Gamergate, of all things, sent so many people off the deep end.

I mean, sure, the calculated effort from Bannon & Co. didn't help. But still...
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Con-troll on February 12, 2019, 08:36:13 pm
It's weird how Gamergate, of all things, sent so many people off the deep end.

I mean, sure, the calculated effort from Bannon & Co. didn't help. But still...

There has to be some hypno shit in games. I always wondered why my mom didn't let me play as much as I wanted to, and still dodged that pothole only by an inch.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 12, 2019, 10:32:34 pm
Is there a political label for someone who thinks we made a massive mistake when we stopped being hunter gatherers?

I regularly fantasise about going off to live in the woods.

It's only the knowledge that its a stupid idea that would suck in reality that stops me... and also I need to do the laundry.

All kinds of very serious and well considered ideologies as based on stupid ideas. I think this could be a real go-er.

Mosquitoes and malnutrition are natural.  Electric light and painless dentistry are abominations.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: altered on February 13, 2019, 04:21:13 am
Is there a political label for someone who thinks we made a massive mistake when we stopped being hunter gatherers?

I regularly fantasise about going off to live in the woods.

It's only the knowledge that its a stupid idea that would suck in reality that stops me... and also I need to do the laundry.

All kinds of very serious and well considered ideologies as based on stupid ideas. I think this could be a real go-er.

Mosquitoes and malnutrition are natural.  Electric light and painless dentistry are abominations.

Reminds me of a man named Ned. I hate that guy.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on February 13, 2019, 06:58:00 pm
I have something for this:

(https://i.imgur.com/PUZ4AmR.jpg)
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: InaneFrownPosse on February 13, 2019, 07:04:55 pm
Is there a political label for someone who thinks we made a massive mistake when we stopped being hunter gatherers?

I regularly fantasise about going off to live in the woods.

It's only the knowledge that its a stupid idea that would suck in reality that stops me... and also I need to do the laundry.

All kinds of very serious and well considered ideologies as based on stupid ideas. I think this could be a real go-er.

Mosquitoes and malnutrition are natural.  Electric light and painless dentistry are abominations.

Absolutely. Think about it, no alzheimers, tooth decay or worrying about your pension if your life expectancy is 35.

I have something for this:

(https://i.imgur.com/PUZ4AmR.jpg)

Inspired.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on February 13, 2019, 07:10:31 pm
It's weird how Gamergate, of all things, sent so many people off the deep end.

I mean, sure, the calculated effort from Bannon & Co. didn't help. But still...

There has to be some hypno shit in games. I always wondered why my mom didn't let me play as much as I wanted to, and still dodged that pothole only by an inch.

I think there's some pretty weird socialisation in online multiplayer games* specifically which contributed to this. I know I played a lot, but generally single player stuff, which has a different dynamic.

*And Japanese games, because as we know, the alt-right are basically a bunch of weaboos.

Is there a political label for someone who thinks we made a massive mistake when we stopped being hunter gatherers?

I regularly fantasise about going off to live in the woods.

It's only the knowledge that its a stupid idea that would suck in reality that stops me... and also I need to do the laundry.

All kinds of very serious and well considered ideologies as based on stupid ideas. I think this could be a real go-er.

Anarcho-primitivism.  Some people have seriously argued for it, especially among the militant fringes of the animal rights/environmentalist movements.

Also the Unabomber.  He has a manifesto. It's not that interesting, I don't recommend reading it, though at least he did all his own work on it, unlike SOME terrorists I could name.
Title: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: altered on February 13, 2019, 07:25:02 pm
It's weird how Gamergate, of all things, sent so many people off the deep end.

I mean, sure, the calculated effort from Bannon & Co. didn't help. But still...

There has to be some hypno shit in games. I always wondered why my mom didn't let me play as much as I wanted to, and still dodged that pothole only by an inch.

I think there's some pretty weird socialisation in online multiplayer games* specifically which contributed to this. I know I played a lot, but generally single player stuff, which has a different dynamic.

*And Japanese games, because as we know, the alt-right are basically a bunch of weaboos.

So I actually researched and studied this, because I’ve been eyeball deep in “gamer culture” since 2001, barely dodged the GamerGate bullet, and watched people I grew up with fall headlong into groups that despise them (e.g. a black man going full “ethnostates!” And not understanding he’ll be one of those on the chopping block if his friends have their way.)

Relatedly (really!) I was a part of the extreme metal and experimental electronic music/noise music communities, which has a concerning amount of overlap with “hardcore gamers”: most hardcore gamers you will meet listen to extreme metal. Go on, ask them some time. Lots of extreme folk metal and modern deathcore, of course, but a frankly alarming amount of black metal too, and they all know Burzum (better known as Varg Vikernes, the church burning neo-Nazi who killed his band mate because of a belief he was gay).

There’s an obvious tack to take here, but it’s wrong. Until around 05 actual nazis in most of the extreme metal community kept their mouths shut, because they announced who they were and their sales and listeners plummeted, their labels would cut them loose, no one wanted any of this. Even after they started getting outspoken, they ended up mostly being ostracized still.

No, the role that extreme metal played was “nazis are ok as long as they are harmless whack jobs.” Since they had no chance to be anything else, well...

Then there are two other things. The rise of militant atheism as in Dawkins and Hitchens, which encouraged a belief that emotions being involved in an argument makes it wrong. And *chan culture, where shocking and offensive behavior was the default.

Almost every hardcore gamer around the time of GamerGate was exposed to some mixture of these three things. Moreover, due to a misogynistic streak I’ve still never been able to figure out the exact source of, there was a serious dearth of outspoken female hardcore gamers up until a couple years before this, so you have mostly young angsty men who think masculinity is shown by the virtual gore on their computer monitors.

Then the inciting factor: game journalism sites are saying “hey gamers! You’re assholes and should stop it!” But they see that and think that it is wrong, because it’s “normal” to be a disgusting asshole, and the argument is based on “it hurts peoples feelings”. And then the whole bullshit with Zoe Quinn happened, giving these angsty young men a target for their frustrations in this area.

All it really took from there was anyone with a decent knowledge of how to play a mob speaking to their sympathies. They were angry and outraged that anyone would dare call them bad people, anyone who was going to ally with them was going to be followed. After that, sunk cost fallacy dominates, and boom: a bunch of newly minted fascists.

There’s more priming for fascist sympathies that had been unintentionally going on for years mind you, but I have the flu and don’t feel like doing the whole thing right now. Remind me later.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Con-troll on February 13, 2019, 08:09:02 pm
Extreme music is extreme for a reason. I have friends who base their choice between far-left/right depending on which they see as the most effective way to kill everyone. :lulz:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: altered on February 13, 2019, 08:12:02 pm
Extreme music is extreme for a reason. I have friends who base their choice between far-left/right depending on which they see as the most effective way to kill everyone. :lulz:

That sort of crap in general I have no patience for these days. I prefer extreme music with motivation of the “punk” style now: “I’m goddamn angry that I’m constantly dodging my demise by inches and I’m gonna make your fucking ears ring about it”

Lots of that in sludge metal right now, which is especially awesome.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on February 13, 2019, 11:10:43 pm
It's weird how Gamergate, of all things, sent so many people off the deep end.

I mean, sure, the calculated effort from Bannon & Co. didn't help. But still...

There has to be some hypno shit in games. I always wondered why my mom didn't let me play as much as I wanted to, and still dodged that pothole only by an inch.

In order to be fun, games need to have an element of positive reinforcement, and wherever there is positive reinforcement and repetition, there is the possibility of addiction.

MMOs are specifically tuned to be addictive; it's in the developer's financial interest to do whatever is necessary to keep people paying their subscription fee month after month.  Mobile games also try to induce addiction, although with a different monetization model (gacha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gacha_game) games are particularly horrible; they're essentially gambling, and randomly delivered positive reinforcement is very effective at forming addiction).

I was badly addicted to an MMO myself, for a while, but was saved by my hatred of humanity in general.  I'm not going there again.

I still do game more than I should, but I stick to games that are primarily offline, and finite in length.  Even if I get addicted, the addiction will end with the end credits.  Also, single-player games don't have as strong an incentive to make their players addicts (a little addiction is fun, but if your audience gets too addicted, they won't be around to buy your next game).
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on February 13, 2019, 11:26:15 pm
There has to be some hypno shit in games. I always wondered why my mom didn't let me play as much as I wanted to, and still dodged that pothole only by an inch.

I think there's some pretty weird socialisation in online multiplayer games* specifically which contributed to this. I know I played a lot, but generally single player stuff, which has a different dynamic.

*And Japanese games, because as we know, the alt-right are basically a bunch of weaboos.

Perhaps the alt-right are mostly weeaboos (I hadn't really noticed), but not all weebs are alt-right, nor do I really see anything in the Japanese games I play that I think would induce that sort of view.

The JRPG community I hang out with mostly leans left.  We do have a token right-wing hypercapitalist Texan, but he's well-spoken, and hates Trump, so things stay pretty civil.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on February 13, 2019, 11:37:40 pm
My understanding of libertarianism is entirely based on a half-remembered readthrough of Atlas Shrugged.

It was a sort of straw-army argument that the only defense against an absurd and obviously fictional caricature of socialism is unfettered capitalism, and that we should trust these capitalists to do what is best.

Also, Rand had some pretty silly notions about how technology is developed, and about what a self-made man could actually accomplish.  And her writing was garbage.

It's bizarre that this book could influence anyone as anything more than a cautionary example of bad writing, but I suppose the message, "You're special and important and you don't need anyone else so you should be allowed to do whatever you want" has an appeal for some.

But, I read it many years ago, so some of the details may have gotten distorted.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 14, 2019, 02:36:24 am
It's weird how Gamergate, of all things, sent so many people off the deep end.

I mean, sure, the calculated effort from Bannon & Co. didn't help. But still...

There has to be some hypno shit in games. I always wondered why my mom didn't let me play as much as I wanted to, and still dodged that pothole only by an inch.

I think there's some pretty weird socialisation in online multiplayer games* specifically which contributed to this. I know I played a lot, but generally single player stuff, which has a different dynamic.

*And Japanese games, because as we know, the alt-right are basically a bunch of weaboos.

Is there a political label for someone who thinks we made a massive mistake when we stopped being hunter gatherers?

I regularly fantasise about going off to live in the woods.

It's only the knowledge that its a stupid idea that would suck in reality that stops me... and also I need to do the laundry.

All kinds of very serious and well considered ideologies as based on stupid ideas. I think this could be a real go-er.

Anarcho-primitivism.  Some people have seriously argued for it, especially among the militant fringes of the animal rights/environmentalist movements.

Also the Unabomber.  He has a manifesto. It's not that interesting, I don't recommend reading it, though at least he did all his own work on it, unlike SOME terrorists I could name.

Also Bhode.  "11 out of 12 people should die for the dolphins."
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Con-troll on February 14, 2019, 05:50:27 am
I'm not gonna do any dirty work for a freaking fish. If dolphins really want to exterminate people they should like buy guns and get to it.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Hoopla! on February 14, 2019, 02:28:27 pm
My understanding of libertarianism is entirely based on a half-remembered readthrough of Atlas Shrugged.

It was a sort of straw-army argument that the only defense against an absurd and obviously fictional caricature of socialism is unfettered capitalism, and that we should trust these capitalists to do what is best.

Also, Rand had some pretty silly notions about how technology is developed, and about what a self-made man could actually accomplish.  And her writing was garbage.

It's bizarre that this book could influence anyone as anything more than a cautionary example of bad writing, but I suppose the message, "You're special and important and you don't need anyone else so you should be allowed to do whatever you want" has an appeal for some.

But, I read it many years ago, so some of the details may have gotten distorted.

I more or less enjoyed the Fountainhead, though there is a lot to laugh at in that book. On the other hand, I only ever made it a little leas than halfway through, despite 2 attempts. It was just boring. And stupid. But mostly boring.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on February 14, 2019, 09:21:39 pm
There has to be some hypno shit in games. I always wondered why my mom didn't let me play as much as I wanted to, and still dodged that pothole only by an inch.

I think there's some pretty weird socialisation in online multiplayer games* specifically which contributed to this. I know I played a lot, but generally single player stuff, which has a different dynamic.

*And Japanese games, because as we know, the alt-right are basically a bunch of weaboos.

Perhaps the alt-right are mostly weeaboos (I hadn't really noticed), but not all weebs are alt-right, nor do I really see anything in the Japanese games I play that I think would induce that sort of view.

The JRPG community I hang out with mostly leans left.  We do have a token right-wing hypercapitalist Texan, but he's well-spoken, and hates Trump, so things stay pretty civil.

Oh there's a lot, and it overlaps with fetsihization of Asian women.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 14, 2019, 10:22:01 pm
Extreme music is extreme for a reason. I have friends who base their choice between far-left/right depending on which they see as the most effective way to kill everyone. :lulz:

Once you side with Nazis you can never, ever get the poo off of yourself.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Pergamos on February 14, 2019, 10:28:17 pm
Is there a political label for someone who thinks we made a massive mistake when we stopped being hunter gatherers?

I regularly fantasise about going off to live in the woods.

It's only the knowledge that its a stupid idea that would suck in reality that stops me... and also I need to do the laundry.

All kinds of very serious and well considered ideologies as based on stupid ideas. I think this could be a real go-er.

primitivist.  A lot of primitivists are even worse assholes than libertarians.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 14, 2019, 10:29:48 pm
Is there a political label for someone who thinks we made a massive mistake when we stopped being hunter gatherers?

I regularly fantasise about going off to live in the woods.

It's only the knowledge that its a stupid idea that would suck in reality that stops me... and also I need to do the laundry.

All kinds of very serious and well considered ideologies as based on stupid ideas. I think this could be a real go-er.

primitivist.  A lot of primitivists are even worse assholes than libertarians.

This is incorrect.  The least annoying primitivist is 100 times more annoying and flat out STUPID than any libertarian.  Which is saying a great deal.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on February 14, 2019, 10:46:07 pm
But also 100 times smellier.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 14, 2019, 10:47:12 pm
But also 100 times smellier.

Also a big deal.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Con-troll on February 15, 2019, 03:55:46 am
Extreme music is extreme for a reason. I have friends who base their choice between far-left/right depending on which they see as the most effective way to kill everyone. :lulz:

Once you side with Nazis you can never, ever get the poo off of yourself.

My childhood trauma prevents me from disagreeing with people, so I guess I'm doomed.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on February 18, 2019, 08:15:30 am
We need corporate regulations because, given the checks and balances in most first world countries, corporations are a at least as likely a source of repression as the government is in these places. And not just repression of their employees either. Consider the recent restrictions imposed by many popular online social platforms. In December, Tumblr abruptly deleted a third of their content and kicked out thousands of longtime users for no reason other than that they suddenly decided that they didn't like their content. That sort of thing should be illegal. We need additional corporate legislation to restore people's ability to express themselves.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on February 18, 2019, 08:26:44 am
And without strict corporate regulation we end up with monopolies, which are inherently contrary to Discordianism (see Hesiod's Works and Days)
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Don Coyote on February 18, 2019, 03:49:28 pm
Just look at what we missed out because of government regulations.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on February 19, 2019, 07:24:49 am
Is that like Binsky's Nuclear Beer?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Pergamos on February 21, 2019, 05:21:32 pm
We need corporate regulations because, given the checks and balances in most first world countries, corporations are a at least as likely a source of repression as the government is in these places. And not just repression of their employees either. Consider the recent restrictions imposed by many popular online social platforms. In December, Tumblr abruptly deleted a third of their content and kicked out thousands of longtime users for no reason other than that they suddenly decided that they didn't like their content. That sort of thing should be illegal. We need additional corporate legislation to restore people's ability to express themselves.

I would personally prefer to see the check on corporate power come from employees and consumers.  Without the government holding them back unions are quite capable of representing employees, consumers are still lacking the sort of organizations that can effectively negotiate with corporate suppliers.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on February 21, 2019, 05:38:54 pm
We need corporate regulations because, given the checks and balances in most first world countries, corporations are a at least as likely a source of repression as the government is in these places. And not just repression of their employees either. Consider the recent restrictions imposed by many popular online social platforms. In December, Tumblr abruptly deleted a third of their content and kicked out thousands of longtime users for no reason other than that they suddenly decided that they didn't like their content. That sort of thing should be illegal. We need additional corporate legislation to restore people's ability to express themselves.

It was SESTA/FOSTA.


Quote
I would personally prefer to see the check on corporate power come from employees and consumers.  Without the government holding them back unions are quite capable of representing employees, consumers are still lacking the sort of organizations that can effectively negotiate with corporate suppliers.

https://www.facebook.com/falgsc/posts/551896921885760
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on February 21, 2019, 09:19:44 pm
We need corporate regulations because, given the checks and balances in most first world countries, corporations are a at least as likely a source of repression as the government is in these places. And not just repression of their employees either. Consider the recent restrictions imposed by many popular online social platforms. In December, Tumblr abruptly deleted a third of their content and kicked out thousands of longtime users for no reason other than that they suddenly decided that they didn't like their content. That sort of thing should be illegal. We need additional corporate legislation to restore people's ability to express themselves.

It was SESTA/FOSTA.

I heard it was Apple who demanded it, and that they obsequiously obliged because they've become another of the Apple corporation's mindless flunkies/toadies.

In either case SESTA-FOSTA does demonstrate that corporate regulation is not always good. In that spirit I feel that I should revise my statement to more specifically say that we need regulations on how corporations interact with consumers, employees, the environment, their competition, and the government. Regulating other aspects is not as important. As long as they don't abuse their employees, cheat their customers, pollute the environment, sabotage their competition, cheat on their taxes, pull strings with congress to entrench their company or industry to eliminate competition and obsolescence it basically doesn't matter what else they do
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Pergamos on February 25, 2019, 04:45:17 am



Quote
I would personally prefer to see the check on corporate power come from employees and consumers.  Without the government holding them back unions are quite capable of representing employees, consumers are still lacking the sort of organizations that can effectively negotiate with corporate suppliers.

https://www.facebook.com/falgsc/posts/551896921885760

I don't see the relevance.  You seem to be suggesting I am against checks on corporate power.  I am absolutely not, I just don't think Government is going to do a very good job of it, regulatory capture is a real danger and has occurred repeatedly.  That pile of regulations that Trump wants to burn does contain some protections for consumer safety, it also includes regulations designed to keep out competitors, and to protect corporations from consumers.  I think organizations of consumers, keeping track of when corporations neglect safety in their products and otherwise tracking bad behavior and then organizing boycotts are going to do a better job than the government will because they have more direct self interest.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Don Coyote on February 25, 2019, 04:31:16 pm
This implies that the consumer has even power singularly and enmass to force wide spread control over multinational corporations.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 25, 2019, 05:31:49 pm
I don't see the relevance.  You seem to be suggesting I am against checks on corporate power.  I am absolutely not, I just don't think Government is going to do a very good job of it, regulatory capture is a real danger and has occurred repeatedly.  That pile of regulations that Trump wants to burn does contain some protections for consumer safety, it also includes regulations designed to keep out competitors, and to protect corporations from consumers.  I think organizations of consumers, keeping track of when corporations neglect safety in their products and otherwise tracking bad behavior and then organizing boycotts are going to do a better job than the government will because they have more direct self interest.

:lulz:

Oh, yeah, that shit will work nicely.

:lulz:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 25, 2019, 05:33:31 pm
Some of you have never in your life sat in a boardroom and it shows.  The ONLY thing that regulates corporations is fines and the threat of prison.  The consumer isn't even on the radar.

:lol:  Still laughing about that.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on February 25, 2019, 06:02:55 pm
Unions can exert force on contract negotiations, which may have enough leverage wrt working conditions, but unions are pretty much unconcerned if the consumer is getting fucked/poisoned, if the benefit packages are large enough.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on February 25, 2019, 06:27:43 pm
How do consumers work against cartels?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Don Coyote on February 25, 2019, 07:05:35 pm
How do consumers work against cartels?

By screaming on youtube while burning boxes of merch they bought.

Some of you have never in your life sat in a boardroom and it shows.  The ONLY thing that regulates corporations is fines and the threat of prison.  The consumer isn't even on the radar.

:lol:  Still laughing about that.

Every fucking time some libertarian shits out some markets/consumers will force companies to self-regulate I think back to all the medicines with cocaine and then all the radium/uranium infused products that came later. Or that we have to have regulations on the allowable percentage of rat feces in hotdogs.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on February 25, 2019, 07:17:30 pm
How do consumers work against cartels?

By screaming on youtube while burning boxes of merch they bought.

Some of you have never in your life sat in a boardroom and it shows.  The ONLY thing that regulates corporations is fines and the threat of prison.  The consumer isn't even on the radar.

:lol:  Still laughing about that.

Every fucking time some libertarian shits out some markets/consumers will force companies to self-regulate I think back to all the medicines with cocaine and then all the radium/uranium infused products that came later. Or that we have to have regulations on the allowable percentage of rat feces in hotdogs.

Surely, the unions will control for that!

:asshat:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Faust on February 25, 2019, 07:53:37 pm
Some of you have never in your life sat in a boardroom and it shows.  The ONLY thing that regulates corporations is fines and the threat of prison.  The consumer isn't even on the radar.

:lol:  Still laughing about that.

For a history of corporate responsibility in society, I like to point at energy supply provider Enron. What they did was deliberately caused blackouts and at least partially contributing to the environment that caused the LA riots, who'd have thought when the lights go out, angry disenfranchised people riot.
They did so because some of them at least believed they were operating within the letter of the law, only just. They were just constricting supply when demand was high to trigger a more lucrative emergency measure energy payment.
People died in the riots. People died in their homes through accidents. And not just so a company could make money (they were already making a killing), but so they could make MORE money.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 26, 2019, 12:51:41 am
Some of you have never in your life sat in a boardroom and it shows.  The ONLY thing that regulates corporations is fines and the threat of prison.  The consumer isn't even on the radar.

:lol:  Still laughing about that.

For a history of corporate responsibility in society, I like to point at energy supply provider Enron. What they did was deliberately caused blackouts and at least partially contributing to the environment that caused the LA riots, who'd have thought when the lights go out, angry disenfranchised people riot.
They did so because some of them at least believed they were operating within the letter of the law, only just. They were just constricting supply when demand was high to trigger a more lucrative emergency measure energy payment.
People died in the riots. People died in their homes through accidents. And not just so a company could make money (they were already making a killing), but so they could make MORE money.

Fortunately, they were stopped by consumer watchdog groups.   :lulz:
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on February 26, 2019, 01:12:12 am
How many car companies would voluntarily make a car that cost a few hundred dollars extra, just to reduce the pollution it put out?
How many consumers would voluntarily buy such a car, over a cheaper alternative?  How many would avoid the unimproved models?
Especially if the incremental reduction in pollution wasn't going to affect their health.  It's just one car's worth, after all.

There are some things that are better done via government regulations.

Now, how many car companies would intentionally bypass emissions regulations by designing a car that normally exceeded the maximum nitrogen oxide standard by a lot, but switched into "low-pollution mode" (with a significant loss of fuel economy and horsepower) whenever it thought it was being formally tested?  (Hint:  rhymes with 'Volkswagen').

I cannot conceive of a libertarian solution to the tragedy of the commons.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on February 26, 2019, 04:43:38 pm
I cannot conceive of a libertarian solution to the tragedy of the commons.

The Libertarian solution is, "remove the commons".
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 26, 2019, 04:48:15 pm
I cannot conceive of a libertarian solution to the tragedy of the commons.

The Libertarian solution is, "remove the commons".

HAW HAW.

It's actually "Take the commons the taxpayers paid for and just flat up *give* it to corporations of your choice."
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Don Coyote on February 26, 2019, 05:24:42 pm
I cannot conceive of a libertarian solution to the tragedy of the commons.

The Libertarian solution is, "remove the commons".

HAW HAW.

It's actually "Take the commons the taxpayers paid for and just flat up *give* it to corporations of your choice."

"Please Corporation-sempai. Take my everything. Just be gentle"
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cramulus on February 26, 2019, 06:04:51 pm
If it doesn't have it yet... this thread needs the Non-Libertarian FAQ (https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/22/repost-the-non-libertarian-faq/)

my fav part is the discussion about Coordination Problems (https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/22/repost-the-non-libertarian-faq/#coordination_problems)

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on February 26, 2019, 07:32:13 pm
Information asymmetry is another key issue, which is what I was getting at with the cartels point.

If you don't know there's price fixing going on, and there's no regulatory body investigating for these things, how do you know you're getting ripped off?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: LMNO on February 26, 2019, 07:33:19 pm
Good point.  The assumption of transparency is laughable.

Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Pergamos on February 27, 2019, 10:03:17 pm
I feel like you all have a story in your head and you are ignoring what I am saying and fitting it into that story instead.  I am not, for a second, saying that corporations aren't that bad, or that they don't need to be watched.  I am saying that government is also awful, and is run by people like Trump who use it to HELP the corporations be worse, rather than preventing their awfulness.  Exactly how to keep them in line, from the consumer point of view, I still don't know, but government hasn't done it, and has kept Unions from keeping them in line from the employee point of view. 

YOu keep coming back with how awful and selfish corporations are, and how they act as badly as they can get away with.  This is absolutely true and I am not disputing it for a second, this is why we need groups that are more accountable than government to keep them in line.  More accountable to consumers, and less able to be bought up by corporations with a big fat budget devoted to exactly that.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on February 27, 2019, 10:35:49 pm
Some of you have never in your life sat in a boardroom and it shows.  The ONLY thing that regulates corporations is fines and the threat of prison.  The consumer isn't even on the radar.

:lol:  Still laughing about that.

For a history of corporate responsibility in society, I like to point at energy supply provider Enron. What they did was deliberately caused blackouts and at least partially contributing to the environment that caused the LA riots, who'd have thought when the lights go out, angry disenfranchised people riot.
They did so because some of them at least believed they were operating within the letter of the law, only just. They were just constricting supply when demand was high to trigger a more lucrative emergency measure energy payment.
People died in the riots. People died in their homes through accidents. And not just so a company could make money (they were already making a killing), but so they could make MORE money.

Wait, Enron actually had a service they provided? I had been under the impression that they were a pure Ponzi scheme that did nothing and produced nothing.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Faust on February 27, 2019, 10:52:07 pm
Some of you have never in your life sat in a boardroom and it shows.  The ONLY thing that regulates corporations is fines and the threat of prison.  The consumer isn't even on the radar.

:lol:  Still laughing about that.

For a history of corporate responsibility in society, I like to point at energy supply provider Enron. What they did was deliberately caused blackouts and at least partially contributing to the environment that caused the LA riots, who'd have thought when the lights go out, angry disenfranchised people riot.
They did so because some of them at least believed they were operating within the letter of the law, only just. They were just constricting supply when demand was high to trigger a more lucrative emergency measure energy payment.
People died in the riots. People died in their homes through accidents. And not just so a company could make money (they were already making a killing), but so they could make MORE money.

Wait, Enron actually had a service they provided? I had been under the impression that they were a pure Ponzi scheme that did nothing and produced nothing.
Worse then nothing, they actively caused blackouts. They created the conditions for an emergency mechanism to trigger lucrative outside of scheduled market payments.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Faust on February 27, 2019, 10:53:17 pm
Some of you have never in your life sat in a boardroom and it shows.  The ONLY thing that regulates corporations is fines and the threat of prison.  The consumer isn't even on the radar.

:lol:  Still laughing about that.

For a history of corporate responsibility in society, I like to point at energy supply provider Enron. What they did was deliberately caused blackouts and at least partially contributing to the environment that caused the LA riots, who'd have thought when the lights go out, angry disenfranchised people riot.
They did so because some of them at least believed they were operating within the letter of the law, only just. They were just constricting supply when demand was high to trigger a more lucrative emergency measure energy payment.
People died in the riots. People died in their homes through accidents. And not just so a company could make money (they were already making a killing), but so they could make MORE money.

Fortunately, they were stopped by consumer watchdog groups.   :lulz:
Is that how Enron were caught, is that a win for free market capitalism as proof of self regulation, or proof for the need FOR regulation
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 28, 2019, 12:44:59 am
I feel like you all have a story in your head and you are ignoring what I am saying and fitting it into that story instead.  I am not, for a second, saying that corporations aren't that bad, or that they don't need to be watched.  I am saying that government is also awful, and is run by people like Trump who use it to HELP the corporations be worse, rather than preventing their awfulness.  Exactly how to keep them in line, from the consumer point of view, I still don't know, but government hasn't done it, and has kept Unions from keeping them in line from the employee point of view. 

YOu keep coming back with how awful and selfish corporations are, and how they act as badly as they can get away with.  This is absolutely true and I am not disputing it for a second, this is why we need groups that are more accountable than government to keep them in line.  More accountable to consumers, and less able to be bought up by corporations with a big fat budget devoted to exactly that.

We call them "voters".
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Don Coyote on February 28, 2019, 02:00:11 am
Can we just all agree that Libertarians are just a bunch of toddlers who due their lack of object permanence and long term thinking just want to smoke weed and live in a more dystopic corporate dystopia?
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Doktor Howl on February 28, 2019, 04:09:34 am
Can we just all agree that Libertarians are just a bunch of toddlers who due their lack of object permanence and long term thinking just want to smoke weed and live in a more dystopic corporate dystopia?

Yes.  And they get in the way when you pop into the coffee shop on the way to work.  They sit there making it obvious that they're reading Atlas Shrugged, and wondering why none of the girls are chatting them up.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Cain on February 28, 2019, 08:41:30 am
I feel like you all have a story in your head and you are ignoring what I am saying and fitting it into that story instead.  I am not, for a second, saying that corporations aren't that bad, or that they don't need to be watched.  I am saying that government is also awful, and is run by people like Trump who use it to HELP the corporations be worse, rather than preventing their awfulness.  Exactly how to keep them in line, from the consumer point of view, I still don't know, but government hasn't done it, and has kept Unions from keeping them in line from the employee point of view. 

YOu keep coming back with how awful and selfish corporations are, and how they act as badly as they can get away with.  This is absolutely true and I am not disputing it for a second, this is why we need groups that are more accountable than government to keep them in line.  More accountable to consumers, and less able to be bought up by corporations with a big fat budget devoted to exactly that.

No, my reply was a direct counter to your comments.

If government is weak, fickle and easily bought off, then consumers are even more so, with the power disparity between people and corporations being even larger than that between corporations and government.

Information asymmetry, tragedy of the commons and defections from the right course of action will be even more apparent with consumers leading the charge. For every successful court case, there are 50 that are settled out of court. Consumers will be bought off, allowing companies to continue with their behaviour.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Telarus on March 10, 2019, 07:42:46 pm
And we are seeing "mandatory arbitration outside of court" clauses in all sorts of service and employment contracts nowadays.

Can we just all agree that Libertarians are just a bunch of toddlers who due their lack of object permanence and long term thinking just want to smoke weed and live in a more dystopic corporate dystopia?

My martial arts teacher likes to say they are "cos-playing the period when his country was a pirate-democracy and Americans had free reign to loot other countries' ships in international waters".
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: altered on March 10, 2019, 07:45:50 pm
And we are seeing "mandatory arbitration outside of court" clauses in all sorts of service and employment contracts nowadays.

Can we just all agree that Libertarians are just a bunch of toddlers who due their lack of object permanence and long term thinking just want to smoke weed and live in a more dystopic corporate dystopia?

My martial arts teacher likes to say they are "cos-playing the period when his country was a pirate-democracy and Americans had free reign to loot other countries' ships in international waters".

I love the word “pirate-democracy” because it fully explains libertarians without further additions necessary. No matter what “pirate” brings to mind for you, it’s basically accurate.
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on March 11, 2019, 12:22:57 am
And we are seeing "mandatory arbitration outside of court" clauses in all sorts of service and employment contracts nowadays.

Those definitely need to be banned
Title: Re: Is it just me or is distaste for Libertarianism contradictory to discordianism?
Post by: altered on March 11, 2019, 12:54:35 am
And we are seeing "mandatory arbitration outside of court" clauses in all sorts of service and employment contracts nowadays.

Those definitely need to be banned

Currently they’re effectively useless, since the companies with the heft to make that sort of thing happen have too many goddamn users to enforce it easily.

You can, after all, still take them to court (breaking the EULA) and 9 times out of 10 they can’t stop you from signing back up. They’re just a bad court ruling from becoming truly evil though, so I definitely would prefer them gone.