Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Literate Chaotic => Topic started by: Cramulus on August 05, 2009, 08:01:23 pm

Title: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Cramulus on August 05, 2009, 08:01:23 pm
(http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb163/wompcabal/default.png)

This thread is for discussion of Angel Tech by Antero Alli.


download: http://ifile.it/vjagfkr





Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Cramulus on August 05, 2009, 08:13:16 pm
I finished the intro and the first chapter. I had trouble with it.

It took a long time due to some reasons people may find dumb or stubborn.


For one, I am finding this to be quite boring so far, if only because I've already read Prometheus Rising, and a lot of other text on the 8-circuit model. This seems very similar. I'm not sure that I need another description/interpretation of Leary's work.

For two, the language turns me off. All the talk of angels, beings of light, and learning to love... So far, it reads like a self-help book. I guess it is a self-help book. Meh.


Kai said that Alli handles the circuits differently than RAW. Unlike RAW, Alli doesn't believe in using chemicals to stimulate the upper circuits (which is a relief because I have no desire to do ketamine in order to experience universal consciousness).

But other than that, how much of this is going to be "new" info for me? So far I have not encountered any new information. This is not the fault of the book, this is probably very useful for some people, it's just kind of played-out for someone that's been reading RAW and friends for 10+ years.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Roaring Biscuit! on August 05, 2009, 08:20:02 pm
need to finish printing this, can't stand reading long txts of a screen.

plus paper is cool.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on August 05, 2009, 08:20:58 pm
I haven't actually started.  Still working my way through "The Family."  I'll skim AT when I get a chance.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Captain Utopia on August 05, 2009, 08:29:45 pm
I'm only at page 15. I like it so far. From a first-principles perspective, I have an issue just accepting that there are 8 circuits, or that the singular reflection (first four/second four) is necessarily the only reflection.. but enough has resonated with me so far that I'm willing to consider the arguments. If they appear.

That said, I'm new to RAW, and so when I finally get around to Prometheous Rising perhaps that will suffer the same critique of this, but in reverse? Though so far RAW tends to talk of things like Angels and Beings of Light less as actual things, but just models. I'm expecting that revelation will be dramatically unveiled sooner or later, in Angel Tech.

So far I think it may be one of the few books I actually finish reading.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on August 05, 2009, 09:45:18 pm
I got more or less through the intro when I first got it. It *does* strike me oddly as being really new-agey, which is probably my main issue with it thus far; I got the impression that it was supposed to be *less* new-agey than RAW's stuff, but that's just what I'm bringing in to the table. I'll continue with it and see if it gets a little more grounded in terms of language, since it probably doesn't want to alienate what is assumed to be its main audience right from the get-go ;-).

Also, is it just me or is it terribly common for anything mentioning the eight circuit model written prior to 2005 to have a foreword by either RAW or Tim Leary? It seems kind of odd that this is the second book club book thus far to have RAW writing some blurb at the beginning, and I've seen a couple others that do this too.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on August 06, 2009, 11:40:32 pm
I finished the intro and the first chapter. I had trouble with it.

It took a long time due to some reasons people may find dumb or stubborn.


For one, I am finding this to be quite boring so far, if only because I've already read Prometheus Rising, and a lot of other text on the 8-circuit model. This seems very similar. I'm not sure that I need another description/interpretation of Leary's work.

For two, the language turns me off. All the talk of angels, beings of light, and learning to love... So far, it reads like a self-help book. I guess it is a self-help book. Meh.


Kai said that Alli handles the circuits differently than RAW. Unlike RAW, Alli doesn't believe in using chemicals to stimulate the upper circuits (which is a relief because I have no desire to do ketamine in order to experience universal consciousness).

But other than that, how much of this is going to be "new" info for me? So far I have not encountered any new information. This is not the fault of the book, this is probably very useful for some people, it's just kind of played-out for someone that's been reading RAW and friends for 10+ years.

Sorry if you haven't encountered anything new. It may be a total blowout for you and completely useless.

On the other hand it was/is a major thing for me, while I only got to second circuit in prometheus rising and put it down, haven't picked it up since.

Now I feel bad for voting yes on this being the book club book.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: cainadhd on August 08, 2009, 08:49:31 am
http://deoxy.org/media/Antero_Alli/8_Circuit_Brain_Model_Conversation
"This series of conversations is on the topic called the 8 Circuit Brain model. It is something that Timothy Leary first brought into the western consciousness, and later Robert Anton Wilson in his book Prometheus Rising gave a more wide spread appeal. It was further developed by Antero in his book Angel Tech."—Radical Change Radio
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Cain on August 08, 2009, 12:11:37 pm
If you guys aren't getting much out of it, I don't mind suggesting another book.  Given the good reviews I got of it from Kai and Ratatosk, I thought it might be useful to you.  If not, then my bad.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Captain Utopia on August 08, 2009, 01:45:56 pm
If you guys aren't getting much out of it, I don't mind suggesting another book.  Given the good reviews I got of it from Kai and Ratatosk, I thought it might be useful to you.  If not, then my bad.
I'm enjoying it, and I noticed that Cramulus made an edit highlighting that his comment about the book not providing him with any new information after reading the first chapter was not the fault of the book. As the rest of the comments seem neutral or positive so far, there doesn't seem to be evidence for a popular will to change the book.

As an aside, I find it fascinating to see how the discussion of some of these topics has evolved over time. If they needed a coating of new-age memes to be absorbed ~20 years ago, it really makes you wonder at what discredited fappery will be painfully evident in our discussions, in ~20 years time.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Cain on August 08, 2009, 01:50:12 pm
Likely internet memes
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Captain Utopia on August 08, 2009, 01:54:44 pm
(http://lolcat.com/images/lolcats/686.jpg) (http://"http://lolcat.com/images/686.html")
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Captain Utopia on August 08, 2009, 04:31:51 pm
Likely internet memes
Could you expand upon this? I'm curious what you think we might discard in the next 20 years. The amusement generated from sharing them? The idea that they can be studied, controlled, and predicted? The misuse of the word "meme"? The law of fives "the internet is a meme of memes" - "look they are everywhere" banality? The idea that internet memes are a precursor to a new form of consciousness? Or just LOLCATs?

I, for one, am looking forward to the public release of Google Meme Search (http://memes.google.com/), combining Strong AI with years of internet history to trace the insertion and mutation of memes over any timeline. Of course, it'll mean everything in OM will need to be stepped up to a new level.. but I think that will just make it harder for evil memes to spread.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: fomenter on August 08, 2009, 05:23:02 pm
but I think that will just make it harder for evil memes to spread.

memes don't kill people,
 people kill memes
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on August 08, 2009, 05:29:53 pm
Memes don't kill people -- memes ARE people.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Captain Utopia on August 08, 2009, 05:33:05 pm
Memes don't kill people -- memes ARE people.

You know what other group has that as a slogan?

Memes
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on August 08, 2009, 05:40:15 pm
People don't kill threads, memes kill threads.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Cramulus on August 08, 2009, 05:43:28 pm
Out of curiosity, who here is reading Angel Tech?

I hope my indifference doesn't dissuade other people - I was speaking for myself and wasn't attempting to set a negative tone. I'm only 16 pages past the intro, after all!

Prometheus Rising was a very important book to me - there's definitely some value in any book that synthesizes that knowledge in a new way.


From where I'm sitting--
 the last half dozen books I've read have all been heady tomes concerned with mysticism, counterculture, or consciousness. And other stuff on RAW's reading list.
  so I kind of need a break for it, but that's just me

Likely internet memes
Could you expand upon this? I'm curious what you think we might discard in the next 20 years. The amusement generated from sharing them? The idea that they can be studied, controlled, and predicted? The misuse of the word "meme"? The law of fives "the internet is a meme of memes" - "look they are everywhere" banality? The idea that internet memes are a precursor to a new form of consciousness? Or just LOLCATs?

I, for one, am looking forward to the public release of Google Meme Search (http://memes.google.com/), combining Strong AI with years of internet history to trace the insertion and mutation of memes over any timeline. Of course, it'll mean everything in OM will need to be stepped up to a new level.. but I think that will just make it harder for evil memes to spread.


hmm, a search engine which indexes memes?

that would be called....


"google", no?


not sure how Strong AI relates


but we are wandering into threadjack territory
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: fomenter on August 08, 2009, 05:55:34 pm

i read angel tech during the height of the "new age's" popularity compared to every other nut job using the newage language this (and other falcon press books) were  the only ones that had any real self transformational value, i haven't re read past the intro yet, but i did read all the falcon press (and raw) books at around the same time, and i didn't end up with a favorite one or get bored with the others, i read them as each being a different map of the same basic territory.. and i think got value from reading them in that way...
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Elder Iptuous on August 08, 2009, 07:56:11 pm
I'm still reading it....
but slowly.
based on the comments and what i have read so far, i'm left with the desire to read leary or Prometheus Rising first/instead...
this one's not too long though, so it's not a problem at all..
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on August 08, 2009, 10:16:04 pm
I likewise am not far in. It'll be worth reading; I've read endless RAW and Leary rehashes of the eight circuit model already, and none of them made me tire of it particularly, so if Angel Tech manages to go through it in detail without advertising various types of drugs, I'm all for it. It also seems (from my convos with Kai) that Angel Tech phrases the higher circuits differently and has a different (possibly more make-sense) model of them, which is probably worth reading to the end for.

My critique of the new-agey language was based on the introduction, and probably if I wasn't already expecting something very much not new-agey I wouldn't be so bothered by it. I've read worse offenders in that area and enjoyed them immensely.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rumckle on August 09, 2009, 04:12:28 am
I started reading it last night, it isn't bad, though it seems kind of like a self help manual at times.

Anyway, out of curiosity, are any of you doing the "homework exercises" he sets?
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rumckle on August 09, 2009, 04:28:41 am
Also, I came across this from when Angeltech was taught as a course at the Maybe Logic Academy:

http://www.maybelogic.org/anteroprospectus.htm
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: fomenter on August 09, 2009, 04:37:09 am
Quote
As Fallen Angels, we are graced with living in the Age of Relativity
which has spawned a new breed of philosophical animal in catma, or
"relative disbelief." Unlike the absolute belief of dogma, catma doesn't have
to believe in anything. (This includes the belief of not having to believe in
anything.) If properly fed, groomed and cared for, catma will keep dogmas
quite busy chasing their own tales. If you listen closely, you can hear them
bark, Truth! Proof! Proof!" (SECRET MESSAGE #23: The Truth Will Set
You Free But First It May Make You Miserable.)

discordian references..
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Reginald Ret on August 09, 2009, 12:06:37 pm
what does he mean when he says 'spiritual' or 'spiritual truth'?



Quote
The moment this intellect recognizes an Intelligence greater
than its own, it's up against the wall with two choices: 1) It surrenders its
authority to serve the greater Intelligence as its translator or 2) It holds fast
to its previous identity as Ultimate Creator and thus, proceeds to possess the
personality with its fearful tyranny until its inevitable confession of defeat.
Here marks the turning point between illumination and madness.

false dichotomy. (Complete Surrender or become Batshit Insane)
Assumption that intelligence is 1-dimensional.
And the worst offence: willingness to surrender.

This pisses me off.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on August 09, 2009, 02:15:51 pm
In reading Angel Tech, I completely skipped the inspectional read and went straight to Analytical. I read through it very slowly over the period of several months, examining every statement and taking them all with a grain of salt. If something excited me or drew me in (as it did often) I let it happen, didn't fight it (Cf. the bit about Judging and Resisting near the beginning). If something was just too new agey to accept, I tried to put it in words that were easier for me. The whole book seemed to be full of bits and pieces of wisdom when I did this, making sure to take every suggestion on a case by case basis and not as a universal.

For example, in that bit, Regret, the key statement is "the moment the intellect recognizes an intelligence greater than it's own". If that does not occur, the two things below do not apply, and whether it occurs or not is self dependent. To put it in simpler terms, if I'm wrong about something, if I think I have an idea of how the universe works but its a false "truth", eventually I may end up staring the real answer in the face (either in the metaphorical sense or in the literal sense, as a teacher (which could be anyone, not necessarily a traditional authority, and I don't think Alli is referring to himself either)). When that happens, I either integrate that and continue on, or I fight it until you eventually give in, using up lots of energy and time in the process. The former would be "illumination" and the latter "madness" because the former is sensible and the latter what fundamentalists do.

If after trying to put it into different words and working around it via different filters, if it still sounded like new age bullshit then I discarded it. Alli is fallible just like the rest of us, and prone to bullshit as well. I don't feel bad about that; I pass over the bullshit and take the interesting stuff with me. The whole astrology section under 7th circuit comes to mind. Incidentally that pissed me off. Here I was, interested in the application of networking archetypes, and then he brings in the idea of charts. Even when I got over my initial loathing I couldn't bring myself to believe any of it.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Reginald Ret on August 09, 2009, 05:03:55 pm
hmmm ok thanks.

i was hung up on 'an intelligence greater than it's own', but if i replace that with 'a teacher' i have no problem with it.
Issues with authority and hatred of the human tendency to submit to perceived superiors? Check.


btw i think a teacher does not have to be limited to a person, it can be a situation or an aspect of yourself.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Captain Utopia on August 09, 2009, 05:11:02 pm
btw i think a teacher does not have to be limited to a person, it can be a situation or an aspect of yourself.
Or in Alli's model, an Angel?
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Reginald Ret on August 09, 2009, 05:23:04 pm
btw i think a teacher does not have to be limited to a person, it can be a situation or an aspect of yourself.
Or in Alli's model, an Angel?
Sure, if that word has meaning to you. for me its just a sound which i associate with Christianity.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on August 09, 2009, 05:24:33 pm
btw i think a teacher does not have to be limited to a person, it can be a situation or an aspect of yourself.
Or in Alli's model, an Angel?
Sure, if that word has meaning to you. for me its just a sound which i associate with Christianity.

Which is why I substitute it with "teacher".

Coming to terms with the author means I understand the meaning of his terms. I can then replace those words or phrases with those of mine that share the same meaning (thus being the same term; a term being a word or phrase with an unambiguous meaning within a particular context) that are more comfortable for me. If I know when Alli says "angel" he means that aspect of myself, other people and the universe that transcends my current knowledge, then I can substitute teacher for angel because in this context they are for me essentially the same term. It's a very easy way for me to get away from bothersome uncomfortable new age-y language.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Verbal Mike on August 09, 2009, 05:42:11 pm
Kai,
Thanks for the excellent definition of "term". :)
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Captain Utopia on August 09, 2009, 05:44:04 pm
If it were that obvious, to the point where it didn't warrant repetition, then it wouldn't be so easy to get hung up on particular terms?
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on August 09, 2009, 05:54:16 pm
If it were that obvious, to the point where it didn't warrant repetition, then it wouldn't be so easy to get hung up on particular terms?

I don't understand what you're asking.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Captain Utopia on August 09, 2009, 06:03:54 pm
If it were that obvious, to the point where it didn't warrant repetition, then it wouldn't be so easy to get hung up on particular terms?

I don't understand what you're asking.
I guess it was more of a statement?

Since the newage terms do put off a lot of people, I think it is worth repetition of the definition of "term", so that readers are more likely to do the substitution you describe.. rather than just reject the meaning underneath the newage veneer.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on August 09, 2009, 06:31:25 pm
People who inflect statements at the end as I  would a question annoy me.

That being said,

Term: a word or phrase with an unambiguous meaning within a particular context

In reading literature of many kinds, coming to terms is one of the most important parts of the analytical reading process.

Coming to terms: discovering what the authors terms are and what they mean via their particular context, thereby allowing you to replace them with your terms of the same meaning. The author's and readers terms become one, and thus a consensus of understanding is reached.

That is what I mean when I say coming to terms.


In angel tech there are many terms based in new age words and phrases that probably correspond well with terms that you are I as readers have. As Angel Tech is a practical work and not theoretical (practical works require action from agreement, while theoretical works don't require any action besides saying you agree; self help books are included under practical works), reading it is coming to terms with the author, figuring out whether you or I disagree or agree with the arguments, and then if we agree, integrating that information and putting it into action.


For more on the four levels of reading, coming to terms, pidgeonholeing a book and critiquing literature when you disagree with it, read How to Read a Book - Adler and van Doren. Probably one of the top three most useful books I've ever read. For a practical book that was written over 60 years ago it is still extremely useful, which says much about its overall value. Most of what I said above was a summary from it.

Anyway, enough of this threadjack.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on August 11, 2009, 07:40:38 pm
http://goodlifezen.com/2009/08/12/what-if-we-treat-life-like-a-lucid-dream/ Seemed like an interesting tie in to 8th circuit stuff.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: the last yatto on August 12, 2009, 11:08:36 am
memes ARE people.
Memes

http://www.maybenow.com/Spell-grandma-in-french-.Meme-q7435518
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on August 26, 2009, 01:25:48 pm
So, I just started reading it.  Only a few pages in, so I can't really comment yet, except to say I understand why people had a problem with the language, and I understand Kai's technique of getting around that. 

Hopefully, it will result in what RAW said in the intro, that this will be a clearer, more precise description of the model.

More to come.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 26, 2009, 04:17:14 pm
So, I just started reading it.  Only a few pages in, so I can't really comment yet, except to say I understand why people had a problem with the language, and I understand Kai's technique of getting around that. 

Hopefully, it will result in what RAW said in the intro, that this will be a clearer, more precise description of the model.

More to come.

That's what I found as well, I think Antero intentionally uses terms that you have to work around, rather than swallowing his book wholesale.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on August 26, 2009, 04:22:06 pm
Well, that would pretty much ruin the "Clear and Consice" angle, wouldn't it?

I think he used those terms because he wanted New Agers to get tricked into reading it.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on August 26, 2009, 04:31:42 pm
Well, that would pretty much ruin the "Clear and Consice" angle, wouldn't it?

I think he used those terms because he wanted New Agers to get tricked into reading it.

Possibly  :lulz:
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Captain Utopia on August 26, 2009, 04:38:56 pm
Well, that would pretty much ruin the "Clear and Consice" angle, wouldn't it?

I think he used those terms because he wanted New Agers to get tricked into reading it.

Possibly  :lulz:
Didn't RAW do a similar thing with regards trying to appeal to paranoid conspiracy theorists?

Which group today would be most susceptible? Pagans have fantastic gullibility, but seem to mostly lack intellectual rigor..  :?
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on August 26, 2009, 04:41:21 pm
Which group today would be most susceptible?

Discordians.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Cain on August 26, 2009, 04:41:29 pm
Birthers, obviously.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on August 26, 2009, 06:05:54 pm
Glad this discussion is going.

If I chime in very little (now and over next 5 months) it is because I just took on a massive assistantship project in addition to two rigorous graduate courses and my thesis. I'll try to keep up with the book club though.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Reginald Ret on August 26, 2009, 06:55:17 pm
Kai,
You are smart.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on August 26, 2009, 08:51:35 pm
Kai,
You are a glutton for tedious punishment.

Fixed, and thanks.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on August 27, 2009, 08:17:02 pm
I'm reading this impartially, and I have to say that it is a fairly good read.

It does expand on the 8-circuit model. And even if it doesn't break new ground, it goes into much more detail.

if you have use (or even interest) in the model, you will find something in the book that might interest you.

I will post quotes/excerpts later.  I just wanted to say that the book has merit, in my eyes.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rumckle on September 07, 2009, 11:01:23 pm
I finished reading this this arvo, so when I get some time to gather my thoughts, I will post them here.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Telarus on September 07, 2009, 11:20:36 pm
Antero at Esozone 2008:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5lf9GXn2FA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5Z6FAAwZnU

(they were posted in reverse, for some reason, but the above is the correct order)
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rumckle on September 08, 2009, 11:59:09 pm
Firstly, this will contain spoilers (though this isn't a narrative book, so it isn't really spoiling anything). Secondly, I want to say that I didn't read the forward by  RAW (I don't usually read forwards, and when I do it is usually at the end). Also, if you are the author please don't read, I don't want another butthurt author whinging about other peoples opinions on their books.

Well, Angel Tech,
it had it's moments, I guess the best way to quickly summarise my opinion of it is; the first half was interesting and had some cool stuff in it, the second half sucked balls, and made we want to punch Alli in the head.

At first, like most people here, I found the language barrier difficult, I agree with Kai on the way to read it to actually make sense of it. IIRC he kind of addresses it, by saying that you should take these terms as you understand them. However, it seemed that as he continues with this idea of creating your own definitions to these terms (such as energy, soul etc), he tries to address too broad of an audience, and by trying to speak to everyone, he ends up speaking to no-one.

Another problem, language wise, was his mixing of metaphors, I realise that when dealing with these topics metaphors can be a useful tool for discussing the concepts, but Alli seems to go overboard with it. Simultaneous use of the robot metaphor, the school metaphor, the soul/energy metaphor, and the life metaphor, as well as whatever small one off metaphor he used to illustrate a certain point, just got very confusing. It sort of comes back to his attempts to speak to a much broader audience than what should be his aim.

I liked the pictures scattered throughout the book, they, along with the random quotes and little asides, reminded me of the Principia (in a good way). As did his continued use of 23, though later, in Chapter 7, it kinda seems that his use of 23 was actually a refernce to something else

Quote
The number "23" connects the DNA code with the I Ching; there are bonding irregularities every 23rd angstrom units and the 23rd hexagram is called Breaking Apart. . .there are 23 chromosomes from each male and female cell. There are numerous other examples using the number 23 to demonstrate synchronicity,

so either he wasn't referencing the Principia, or he completely doesn't understand the law of fives (at risk of sounding like I'm saying "He's Doing It WRONG!!!").

The first half of the book (elementary school), was good. I found (once dealing with the language) that many of his ideas, were pretty useful, and the entire breaking down of the mind into the four areas, interesting (I haven't read Leary's "8 Circuit Model"). The chapters (or grades) seemed to flow on well from each other.

I really didn't like the rest of the book, it just shitted me off with a mix of wishy-washy ideas, contradictions and bad science (I realise that this was written over 20 years ago, so some of the stuff he refers to a "New Physics" has changed, but I still am allowed to get pissed off about it). There are a couple of exceptions to this, not all of the second half of the book was bad. I rather liked the 5th Grade chapter, the Tarot design was interesting (though too short), and the a couple of good points were made in the 8th grade.

I liked the fifth grade, the rituals/meditation part was interesting, and many of the points made about giving into sensory pleasure appealed to the hedonistic part of my personality.

After that we get onto the parts of the book that really pissed me off, I just can't stand people who seem to purposefully misconstrue or misunderstand accepted scientific theory to get people to listen to their own crackpot ideas, and try to people to think of it as science. One example that sticks out is:

Quote
DNA receives its instructions from the central nucleus of the atom, whereby it encodes this information for the CNS to delegate the necessary processes for its survival.

I'm not a molecular biologist (so I may be wrong), but the nucleus of an atom can't give out any instructions. Unless it is a metaphor, but even then it doesn't make any sense to me.

The other part that started to bug was he started to contradict himself, which is probably just a sign that he making all this bullshit up. Try this one:

Quote
The aura is an electromagnetic field of energy surrounding and permeating all living forms.

Followed, in the next paragraph by:

Quote
Nobody actually knows what an aura is

Now, I had no problems taking his "auras" and "spirits" and what not as a metaphor of sorts earlier, but when he starts trying to describe them scientifically, and contradicts himself, I just want him to shut the fuck up.

The tarot section was cool, and it agreed with what I always thought about things like tarot, that they are more effective at giving a look into the readers state of mind, than the person being read. However it would have been nicer if he elaborated on it a bit more.

Astrology, it shits me off, always, lets just leave it at that.

Some of the 8th grade was cool, with the whole "the more I learn, the more I realise I know nothing" thing. Though again, some of his "science" annoyed me, some of this I kind of brushed off as due to recent advances in Quantum Mechanics, but even so, some of it was just as jarring as the other science stuff.

All in all, I found the first half interesting, and somewhat useful, but beyond that, it just annoyed me so much, that if I wasn't reading it on my laptop, I would have thrown it out a window a some point.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Cain on September 09, 2009, 10:03:21 am
I think Alli has actually read the Principia more than a few times (Ratatosk could tell you better, but I know he knew RAW, and has been referenced as a Discordian in certain publications before now).

I still haven't read this, btw.  Which is bad of me.  I might start this morning, see how far I get before my shift requires me to go.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Triple Zero on September 09, 2009, 02:16:15 pm
Thanks for your summary, Rumwolf, it makes me wanna pick up reading this book again/further (and perhaps not feel bad about wandering off when I get to the second half .. :) )

I liked the pictures scattered throughout the book, they, along with the random quotes and little asides, reminded me of the Principia (in a good way). As did his continued use of 23, though later, in Chapter 7, it kinda seems that his use of 23 was actually a refernce to something else

Quote
The number "23" connects the DNA code with the I Ching; there are bonding irregularities every 23rd angstrom units and the 23rd hexagram is called Breaking Apart. . .there are 23 chromosomes from each male and female cell. There are numerous other examples using the number 23 to demonstrate synchronicity,

so either he wasn't referencing the Principia, or he completely doesn't understand the law of fives (at risk of sounding like I'm saying "He's Doing It WRONG!!!").

I don't understand, why is this "wrong"?

Both these examples were also mentioned in I!3.

Btw, once thing I just re-realized, probably many of us have realized before. Basically this shows there are synchronicities about the number 23 (remember Jung's description of synchronicity--two events which do not share a direct common cause that are connected because of interpretation by the observer), but we also know that there is nothing very special about 23. However did they pick 23 because it's a somewhat "odd" prime number? Cause if you picked 24 or 25, you'd probably find a lot more occurances, but they would seem less "special" or "significant" because 24 has a great many divisors and 25 is a square. Maybe explains why there is also a lot of 22 synchronicity being discussed (look it up, a lot of crazy conspiracy stuff often linked with 2012 stuff), 22 is not prime, but neither does it "feel" like a very "common" number (possibly cause of 11 being one of it's divisors).

Anyway, enough 23 talk for now :)

Quote
I rather liked the 5th Grade chapter, the Tarot design was interesting (though too short), and the a couple of good points were made in the 8th grade.

Tarot design? Sounds interesting!

Quote
After that we get onto the parts of the book that really pissed me off, I just can't stand people who seem to purposefully misconstrue or misunderstand accepted scientific theory to get people to listen to their own crackpot ideas, and try to people to think of it as science. One example that sticks out is:

Quote
DNA receives its instructions from the central nucleus of the atom, whereby it encodes this information for the CNS to delegate the necessary processes for its survival.

I'm not a molecular biologist (so I may be wrong), but the nucleus of an atom can't give out any instructions. Unless it is a metaphor, but even then it doesn't make any sense to me.

Maybe he meant nucleus of a cell instead of atom? I dunno if that would make sense in the context, but I remember when I was really young (and already really into science) I often confused "cell", "molecule" and "atom", cause in my naive mind they were all terms for "very tiny unit".

Quote
The other part that started to bug was he started to contradict himself, which is probably just a sign that he making all this bullshit up. Try this one:

Quote
The aura is an electromagnetic field of energy surrounding and permeating all living forms.

UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG :argh!: I really, really hate it when they bring electromagnetism into this. I don't mind talk about "energies" and such, I have come to accept that the word "energy" just means an entirely different thing in spirituality than it does in physics. Which is just one of the reasons why I hate when they conflate it. Where "they" = spiritual people, scientists never do this. Actually, to be fair, "proper scientists" never do this, some bad ones do, but they are (in my scientific opinion) wrong. In a similar fashion "proper spiritual people" also never do this, some bad ones do, but they are (in my spiritual opinion) wrong. The difference is, however, that "improper scientists" are way less accepted in the scientific community than "improper spiritual people" are in the spiritual community.

An example is a little book I read about Feng Shui. As I'm decorating my new place, I don't mind a littlebit of spiritual advice. I just want to know about the bits of Feng Shui that can be interpreted entirely metaphorically. If you decorate a room so that a "dragon" can rest its tail comfortably, for a certain explanation of a "dragon"'s tastes and comfort zones, I find it not too hard to believe that you can end up with a room that is pleasantly decorated for a human (note that I do not presuppose that this dragon actually exists, or that it actually comes to my room, invisible or otherwise). With their ideas of "energy flows" through a room (enters through the doorways, whooshes about like a river with the furniture as rocks, you're supposed to make it move somewhat freely, it should also "rest", like a whirlpool, where you also rest like the couch or your desk, and it shouldnt enter and leave a room in a straight stream without whirling around a bit everywhere) it's even easier to imagine, cause it kind of mimics the way people would move through a room, or where there focus would rest.
So, metaphorically, that all checks out, more or less. Where it misses something, you use common sense (which would be the baseline you were gonna use anyway without Feng Shui) and where it requires some superfluous detail that isnt gonna do much, it provides a nice consistency and "flavour" to make choices for things that wouldnt matter anyway.

Uhhhm sorry for my rambling apology for taking an interest in Feng Shui :). My point was going to be that this little book, which is full of shit and totally not about the things I just explained above, talked about how influences from people that lived there create "sticky" energy in a house, now I can sort of get that, it's a bit of a stretch, but especially when you leave the furniture and junk and stuff in I can translate the metaphor (and getting rid of that would cound as "cleansing" energy, or "cleaning" as the mundane call it).

BUT THEN THE BITCH SAID THIS STICKY ENERGY IS ELECTROMAGNETIC IN NATURE

AND THAT WAS WHEN I RRRRAAAAH AND THREW THE BOOK AWAY

Quote
Quote
Nobody actually knows what an aura is

Now, I had no problems taking his "auras" and "spirits" and what not as a metaphor of sorts earlier, but when he starts trying to describe them scientifically, and contradicts himself, I just want him to shut the fuck up.

YES THIS PISSES ME OFF GREATLY AS WELL.

Quote
The tarot section was cool, and it agreed with what I always thought about things like tarot, that they are more effective at giving a look into the readers state of mind, than the person being read. However it would have been nicer if he elaborated on it a bit more.

A friend of mine (actually talking about the I-Ching, but if you sub "76 cards" for "64 hexagrams", the principle is equivalent), it's like playing a chord (with different harmonics, like on a guitar) and seeing which bits of that chord "resonate" in the person's mind.

Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on September 09, 2009, 04:34:17 pm
My initial reaction to Angel Tech was about like that... I loved the first 2/3 of the book and then thought he'd lost his mind.However, after getting to know him, reading some of his other stuff and his online classes about the 8 circuit model, Angel Tech and Paratheatrics, so here's my current opinion:

He's a Discordian, no doubt. He intentionally mixes useful information with little bits of bullshit, like the 23 comment from above. He has some bizarre models of reality he likes to use, which often involve hippie bullshit words. Of course, since he came form the Hippie generation and the book was written in 1980,

"so the vibe was a lot different man, it was like, the vocabulary ya know?"
     \
 :hippie:

Also, some of the crazy stuff is specifically in Leary's model. His concept of 'higher intelligence' at the 7th or Neurogenetic circuit was specifically about "DNA Intelligence". So while his 6th circuit was about programming the 'programs' that run in the brain "metaprogramming" thought/belief/perception, Leary's 7th circuit was specifically about programming changes within DNA. His model stated that we could 'interact' with evolution and direct it for our DNA, and yes he felt that atomic intelligence informed Neurogenetic intelligence which informed Neuroelectric intelligence which was the basis for Neurosomatic intelligence... in some sense (One can never really tell if he's being seriously serious, being metaphorical or tripping his balls off). So Alli sticks with the Model because it's the model he's using. RAW did similar in Prometheus Rising. Personally, I think Leary was using "intelligence" more like we use "emergence" or he was on too many drugs... the weird thing, of course, though is that the South American Indians who take Yopo and Auyahuasa often describe a model of reality that is similar, with "the smallest worlds" giving their information to make up larger ones which make up larger ones etc up to ours.

A lot of the the psychedelic philosophers felt that their tripping was a communication between them and the mushroom/leaf/vine which is a very old animistic model of reality... some anthropologists consider it the earliest building block of religion. Some anthropologists say that those anthropologists spent too much of their college days following the Greatful Dead.

Overall, the first 2/3rds of the book have been really helpful to me, the last third gives me LULZ.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rumckle on September 09, 2009, 08:13:17 pm

I don't understand, why is this "wrong"?

Both these examples were also mentioned in I!3.


It just seemed like it was purposefully finding something that is 23 just to make some point. Whereas (from my interpretation), the Lo5s is more a comment about peoples ability to see coincidences and links everywhere if they want.

I dunno, it just kinda bugged me.

I haven't finished I!3 yet  :oops: should really get around to it.

Quote
Maybe he meant nucleus of a cell instead of atom? I dunno if that would make sense in the context, but I remember when I was really young (and already really into science) I often confused "cell", "molecule" and "atom", cause in my naive mind they were all terms for "very tiny unit".

Yeah, but even then, it doesn't really make sense for the nucleus of a cell to give information to the DNA. I guess it could be a metaphor for they way life builds up, but mixing up science terms to make a metaphor sound credible and scientific is just annoying.

Quote
UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG :argh!: I really, really hate it when they bring electromagnetism into this.

Yep.

Quote
A friend of mine (actually talking about the I-Ching, but if you sub "76 cards" for "64 hexagrams", the principle is equivalent), it's like playing a chord (with different harmonics, like on a guitar) and seeing which bits of that chord "resonate" in the person's mind.


Yeah, that's what I think, about Tarot in general, and the whole DIY aspect makes even better at that, IMO.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rumckle on September 09, 2009, 08:23:07 pm
He's a Discordian, no doubt. He intentionally mixes useful information with little bits of bullshit, like the 23 comment from above. He has some bizarre models of reality he likes to use, which often involve hippie bullshit words. Of course, since he came form the Hippie generation and the book was written in 1980,

"so the vibe was a lot different man, it was like, the vocabulary ya know?"
     \
 :hippie:


:lulz: true that.

I definitely see him as, at least associating with Discordians, but, I think, and this is another reason (along with the bad science) that the second half of the book wasn't as enjoyable for me. Most of the Discordianesque stuff was in the first half, and wasn't as present toward the end.

Quote
Also, some of the crazy stuff is specifically in Leary's model. His concept of 'higher intelligence' at the 7th or Neurogenetic circuit was specifically about "DNA Intelligence". So while his 6th circuit was about programming the 'programs' that run in the brain "metaprogramming" thought/belief/perception, Leary's 7th circuit was specifically about programming changes within DNA. His model stated that we could 'interact' with evolution and direct it for our DNA, and yes he felt that atomic intelligence informed Neurogenetic intelligence which informed Neuroelectric intelligence which was the basis for Neurosomatic intelligence... in some sense (One can never really tell if he's being seriously serious, being metaphorical or tripping his balls off). So Alli sticks with the Model because it's the model he's using. RAW did similar in Prometheus Rising. Personally, I think Leary was using "intelligence" more like we use "emergence" or he was on too many drugs... the weird thing, of course, though is that the South American Indians who take Yopo and Auyahuasa often describe a model of reality that is similar, with "the smallest worlds" giving their information to make up larger ones which make up larger ones etc up to ours.

uhuh, I'm not very familiar with Leary's 8 circuits, but Alli is using, so I reserve the right to call him an idiot based on it.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: fomenter on September 09, 2009, 08:48:22 pm
  i haven't read the book since the 1980s when it was written but i do remember very well the type of newage crap being generated at that time, and i remember this book being light years better than the Chrystal crunching Oder therapy channeling/walk-in crap being produced by the truck load back then, this book was a niche product to grab new agers using the language of the time and connecting them to models and ideas that had some grounding and that they would never have seen otherwise (Leary raw etc).
 the publisher falcon press seemed to do a lot of that covering the same ground from a bunch of different models from different authors at around the same time (Hyatt Raw Alli etc)
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on September 09, 2009, 09:19:49 pm
Since some of you brought up the Tarot, I thought I'd run with the idea for a bit, since it was one of the most powerful bits of the second half of the book (and I admit, I was able to get around the aura's part and get something out of the chakras reality selection stuff, but the astrology was what REALLY pissed me off).

The way I see it, Alli is presenting Tarot as a way to crystalize the different parts of ones self, the aspects or primeval archetypes that make up ones whole person, as a way to become closer to and understand those parts. This fits in well with the 6th circuit summary of "I am many". The making of a tarot deck forces me to put a name and a symbol on those aspects, which gives me a great and powerful connection and awareness of them.

I actually started making my own deck based on the 22 card system he presented. As he suggested, I used personal words and symbols, like The Axon, The Void, Recursion, The Progenitor. I knew when a particular word and symbol clicked as the basis for a card because there was a very strong emotional connection to that idea. So far I have those four cards, and each of them have distinct meanings and emotional reactions. The Void, which stands for the zero card, is particularly powerful for me. It represents the unknown, the hidden potential in myself, unlocked creativity. In my theology, The Void is the name I give to the potential state of energy before the emergence of matter, and the "before the beginning" of the universe. The symbol is a simple black on white enso, a broken circle. The emotional reaction I have is usually that of great overwhelming power, and I usually tear up just from looking at it; The Void is both terrifying and liberating.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on September 10, 2009, 12:52:46 am
You gonna do an Emergence Tarot?

That would be cool.


LMNO
-still reading AT; will comment when done.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on September 10, 2009, 03:01:39 am
You gonna do an Emergence Tarot?

That would be cool.


LMNO
-still reading AT; will comment when done.

Well, its going to have Sustaining stuff in it, just simply because those are the most powerful symbols I have. Emergence, The Process of Sustaining and Religious Naturalism in general all have major impacts on me, as does biology and other sciences, so symbols will end up coming out of those connections. The Axon, for example, is straight out of a mental map I have of a neuron action potential.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bu🤠ns on September 10, 2009, 06:18:00 am
That's really cool, Kai. I'd love to see it if/when you're ready to show it. 

I've read this book twice...I liked it in the same way i enjoy most of falcon publishing's stuff that is to say with lots of grains of salt. 

I couldn't really ever get into the astrology thing, but I would like to say that I think there might be some usefulness to it.  Astrology, as a system, places the astrologer in a metaphorical time and place.  Regardless if the specific houses and degrees and signs to which you were born are TRUE or not does not matter.  It gives you a point in time and from that you can form your symbols and introspection from a basic set of symbols that coincide with the movements of the planets.  Now, while I won't attribute to our current retrograde of Mercury into Virgo as LITERALLY being a dangerous set of circumstances, it does present, in this system, a particular avenue of very specific introspection and extrospection.

Tarot cards will do this too but the major difference being that the tarot isn't on a moving sequence that corresponds to the environment. 

For me, i really just glossed over this part of the book since I have no interest in learning a complicated system of metaphor.  But that's just how i see it. 

Parts I liked:


Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on September 10, 2009, 04:11:11 pm
Excellent POV Kai and Burns!

I think Angel Tech is a good example of why Discordians shouldn't believe what they read. 

:lulz: Esp when written by other Discordians.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on September 10, 2009, 11:55:10 pm
I've said it before and I'll say it again: The best part of this book is right before the start of the 1st circuit stuff, where Alli is talking about Judging and Resisting, that I shouldn't judge my excitement or resist it, and I shouldn't resist resistance.

Years of screwed up shit fell away from me when I finally got that through my head, that I should let me be shaken fully by excitement, let it course through me.


And I was disappointed most of all with the 7th circuit stuff because I've had some pretty strong 7th circuit experiences of networks. I wanted to build on those, but the astrology shit was just not accessible to me, even with term manipulation.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on September 28, 2009, 12:35:31 pm
I'd still like to hear your take on this, LMNO.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on September 28, 2009, 02:14:51 pm
I think I'm close enough to the end to start writing it up.  I'll get to work this afternoon.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on September 28, 2009, 05:03:10 pm
Here's the first part of my analysis.  More to come.

Angel Tech analysis

So, I guess from the get-go, we have to buy in to the 8-circuit model.  I mean, if you think it's bullshit, you might as well walk away now.  My stance is similar to s few others' here, in that circuits 1-5 sound plausible, but 6-8 are… a stretch, to say the best.  But for now, while reading AT, you sort of have to play along for as much as possible.

The second issue most people are having is the language.  It's… Well, the term I'm using is "annoyingly optimistic".  There's an oppressive positivity in his writing, and sometimes it rubs me the wrong way.  I try to ignore it, but sometimes it gets out of hand, as if he's buying his own bullshit a bit too much.  Anyway, onward to the notes.

He seems to fall into dualism fairly easily.  Even at the start, "The moment this intellect recognizes an Intelligence greater than it's own, it's up against the wall with two choices, 1) It surrenders its authority to serve the Greater Authority… 2) It holds fast to its previous identity…"  But what about a middle path of synthesizing the two in a collaboration? Since he goes on to talk about 8 different kinds of intelligence, the Greater Intelligence you meet may only be greater in 1 or 2 of these kinds.  So you synthesize the knowledge, rather than submit or fight.

This is a good line, "Getting high is information gathering, staying high is the result of transmuting information into living experience."  Knocking your brain into other ways of thinking chemically can be a good exercise (provided you can keep a handle on it), but it's a lot more worthwhile to be able to do it without any outside help.

Another good nugget here: "…it is imperative to interpret for oneself any new information taken in.  To know is not enough."  Regurgitation is too easy.

I liked the insight that the second 4 circuits seem to reflect the first 4, and may be a good way of looking at 6-8 in a new light.  If 1/5 deal with physicality, 2/6 with territory, 3/7 with pattern making and 4/8 with social grouping, then you might be able to see how the higher circuits might function.  I still disagree with a lot of the conclusions (however, as I have not experienced these circuits, I may very well be blind to them for now).

"Make maps as fast as you can absorb information, so that you keep integrating.  Adjust the maps you have to synchronize closer with the territory… Without this kind of continual updating, it's very easy to begin living in the past…"  This is the easiest way to stagnate.  It's also fairly exhausting, so it's understandable why some people don't really want to make the effort.

A line even TGRR would like: "The Truth Will Set You Free But First It May Make You Uncomfortable."  That could fit into the memebomb thread nicely. 

He does a good job explaining social institutions like churches, et al: "This kind of Church offers members rewards from Grades One through Four: 1st Grade Food, Security, and Protection; 2nd Grade Status, Land, and Work; 3rd Grade Money, Documents, and Maps; 4th Grade Membership, Religion, and Retirement.  These rewards and others may be ours if we let the Church own us" [emphasis added].  Most people forget that adopting the rules of a social institution runs deeper than they realize.  And they treat it like reality; Cf: the Map-Making quote above.

Part of the Annoyingly Optimistic thing that gets to me is an a priori conclusion of an afterlife, of reincarnation, and that we feel anxiety if we start to think there is No Future.  The 8-circuit model, as I understand it, doesn't need to this far out, and should be able to accommodate different cosmic models. 


Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rumckle on September 28, 2009, 06:06:20 pm
Yo, that's great LMNO, and I'll let you finish but before I respond
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on September 28, 2009, 08:09:53 pm
I'm still just a third of the way through my analysis at best; you might as well pick up and run with anything interesting you find.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on September 28, 2009, 11:42:26 pm
I'm still just a third of the way through my analysis at best; you might as well pick up and run with anything interesting you find.

What you've got so far is good. I like hearing this from another perspective.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bu🤠ns on September 29, 2009, 01:58:11 am
I didn't really recognize the overly optimistic outlook until you mentioned it.  I wonder how much of that is tailored to an intended audience of new age hippies or if it's just simply Ali's 'voice'.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rumckle on September 29, 2009, 02:18:07 am
I liked the insight that the second 4 circuits seem to reflect the first 4, and may be a good way of looking at 6-8 in a new light.  If 1/5 deal with physicality, 2/6 with territory, 3/7 with pattern making and 4/8 with social grouping, then you might be able to see how the higher circuits might function.  I still disagree with a lot of the conclusions (however, as I have not experienced these circuits, I may very well be blind to them for now).

I'm not so sure, yes he talks about it at the start, and in the first 4 circuits he mentions their respective higher circuit counterparts, but in the second half of the book he didn't really refer back to each circuits lower counterpart (at least no more than he mentioned any other circuit). So at the start he seemed to say "I'm just mentioning this even though you won't quite understand it yet", but then later on he didn't talk about that stuff he introduced. (Unless I missed something, as I said a lot of that stuff was pissing me off, so I may not have been giving it as much attention.)

Part of the Annoyingly Optimistic thing that gets to me is an a priori conclusion of an afterlife, of reincarnation, and that we feel anxiety if we start to think there is No Future.  The 8-circuit model, as I understand it, doesn't need to this far out, and should be able to accommodate different cosmic models. 

Yes, that kind of bugged me as well, I just don't like the assumption that the audience needs an afterlife to be happy. And because he included the afterlife thing, it diluted the "real life" messages he was trying to get across.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: rong on September 29, 2009, 05:29:40 am
sorry to but in, as i haven't been reading angel tech, but as i was reading these reviews, it dawned on me that 8 is 23 (i know i know ZOMG law of fives). 

i.e. there are 8 3 digit binary numbers.  so, maybe there is a correlation to the id, ego, and super ego being in a high or low state and one of the 8 circuits.

0 0 0 = all three in a low state, 1st circuit (not to pick on triple zero)
.
.
.
1 0 1 = two in a high state, one in a low state 6th circuit.
.
.
.
1 1 1 = all three in a high state. 8th circuit.

anyhow, just a thought and thought i'd share.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Telarus on September 29, 2009, 06:38:12 am
Hmmmmm. That is interesting. Not sure how to directly apply it to the theory. Interesting, tho.......
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on September 29, 2009, 04:14:21 pm
Similar to our, "yeah, we're monkeys, but we understand that": "The sooner we come to accept our mechanical, robotic self, the sooner we can find the 'mold' and break free… The challenge is in the ability to respond creatively to the unknown."  Simply denying our Monkey Mind is the best way to accidentally fall back into that kind of thinking.

The way that A.A. (OMG, Crowley!) describes "the Robot" could be paralleled with the BIP, with the added aspect of constant uncertainty. His "always in doubt" matches our "never escape" bits.  

There are unfortunate implications when he says, "Why should I change the world when I can change myself?"  It can be taken totally wrong, and seen as apathy, escapism, and a serious need for a barstool.  He seems to be saying that if the world looks to be a dead end, just turn around and take another direction, but it comes out sounding like "fuck it."

Or maybe he's implying the next good quote, "In all seriousness, there's a lot of anti-life influence going around in the mass media.  The messages we get every day from television, radio, newspapers and everybody's brother are so crossed and confused that if you don't start thinking for yourselves, you'll be woven into the social fabric of a great dying beast.  For many of us, it's too late."  In this sense, "changing your self, not the world" means, "not getting sucked into The Machine™.  

He raises an interesting point with the explanations of Excitements and Resistances, in that both become focus points of attention: Excitements because you intuit and bond with them, and Resistances because you consciously avoid them.  "Whatever is resisted soon develops into patterns of habitual avoidance… We become what we resist."  He goes on to say that the only way to balance and deal with these forces is "…a scathing self-honesty and an encompassing self-acceptance."  In short, you can't run from what you don't like about yourself, you have to face it.

Because we're getting into the meat of things now, there will be talk of "energies" and "forces".  I hate the terminology, but it's easy enough to treat it as experiential metaphor.  That is, if you do the exercises he describes, you feel something happening.  What it appears to be are "energies" swirling around your body.  Of course, we've been through all of this with MW and TCC, and have underlined how ridiculous it all is.  However, for the sake of convenience, we will use the clunky and inaccurate terms that A.A. uses.

So, onward to the First Circuit: "First Gear processes fear, both mechanical and innate responses to danger.  The Robot naturally contracts to a security threat."  (As we begin each Gear, I'll just remind us what we're supposed to be looking at.)  This seems pretty basic.  I'm pretty sure if we're buying into the 8C model, there's not much argument here.  As babies, our environment can be safe or dangerous; typically, our parents are the ones who keep us safe.  "You have the choice of reclaiming your body: Become your own parent and protect yourself… Be Safe Enough To Take Risks."  That last line is important.  It isn't that we have to hide ourselves away and never be exposed to danger.  That actually seems like an indication of some problems.  A strong First Gear is a physical self-confidence.  You feel safe enough to get out there and get your hands dirty.  "If the basic reality of safety has not been programmed into Gear One, then it is quite possible that a basic distrust and fear remain."

On the other hand, while he seems to have a good grasp on some of this, other times he leaves us hanging: "It is possible to (re) stabilize basic trust through alternatives other than trying to recover it from our actual genetic mothers or by projecting this need on our mates or friends."  Um, ok.  How?  Oh, by getting into an isolation tank and doing a "rebirthing".  Fuck that.  Then he makes some oblique crack about "for a dearer definition, consult a practicing expert who is not fat."  What the hell?

He's much clearer when talking about how to wreck it.  "Body-trashing is when we think poorly of our bodies.  The most powerful form of this is contained in the crux of any doctrine, spiritual and/or otherwise stating a belief about the body as being "bad" or separate from Life, or Spirit." Pretty much the entirety of modern Western Culture, in other words.  As TV tropes.com says, "Freud Was Right".

But again, he seems to go too far in his zeal.  "The body is the fingerprint of the soul, a Rorschach of the Self."  Well, maybe.  Sometimes, the body simply breaks down.  A.A. gets too close to Thetan Bodies and blaming the victim, here.  I'm pretty sure my tendonitis isn't because my First Gear is blocked.  The knot of muscle under my shoulder blade?  Absolutely.

I do find some resonance when he talks about how to communicate with the First Gear, though. "If messages to the body are too defined or spelled out, the body naturally resists.  The organism loves space and knows itself by its movement in space…It has to do with a style of communication which recognizes the element of space as a value."  For some reason, this reminded me of music, and dancing.  

He mentions that if you declare a personal thought, but frame it in the language of "Most people…" then you are negating yourself as an individual and that in time, if it becomes a habit, you can destroy your sense of self.  While this may be a danger, there is also a danger of solipsism or egotistical narcissism.  Even though you shouldn't get lost in the crowd, you can't declare yourself higher than the crowd, either.

Wrapping up first gear, A.A. once again loses me.  "Physical Intelligence naturally avoids what is toxic and approaches what is nourishing."  I call bullshit.  The animal's desire for unhealthy and intoxicating substances, far before any repressive belief system can set in, is long-known.  This is like a psychological variant on "if we set the cows free, they will migrate to where the hungry people are."

Anyway.  Next post will cover Second Gear.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on September 29, 2009, 05:04:11 pm
I thought the short section on Excitement and Resistance was worth the rest of the book. It was just PERFECT.

Also, I'm finally addressing second circuit needs, which can be seen by the personal boundaries I'm setting. Feels damn nice. I wouldn't have gotten there without impulse from this book.

I like your analysis of the first chapter. Maybe I was less willing to rip it apart when I read it, but I'm glad someone else here took that leap. Gives me perspective.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on September 29, 2009, 05:09:33 pm
This is one of the reasons I like my kindle.  you can highlight sections, and then type in marginalia, and then recall the notes at a touch of a button It's a lot easier for me than scribbling incomprehensible notes in the margin, and then frantically leafing through the pages when I'm looking for a quote.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bu🤠ns on September 29, 2009, 05:40:53 pm
The crack about finding a professional who isn't fat I think refers to a person who is actualized in the First Gear rather than someone who is not.  I *think* there was a bit in there about how fat people are less actualized in this gear due to the oral fixation or excessive eating due to survival/security issues.

I realize that there are overlooked assumptions in this (i.e. thyroid problems, etc) but that's my take on it.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on September 29, 2009, 09:49:45 pm
The crack about finding a professional who isn't fat I think refers to a person who is actualized in the First Gear rather than someone who is not.  I *think* there was a bit in there about how fat people are less actualized in this gear due to the oral fixation or excessive eating due to survival/security issues.

I realize that there are overlooked assumptions in this (i.e. thyroid problems, etc) but that's my take on it.

I think it has more to do with someone who won't sit on you too heavy.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bu🤠ns on September 30, 2009, 01:12:18 am
The crack about finding a professional who isn't fat I think refers to a person who is actualized in the First Gear rather than someone who is not.  I *think* there was a bit in there about how fat people are less actualized in this gear due to the oral fixation or excessive eating due to survival/security issues.

I realize that there are overlooked assumptions in this (i.e. thyroid problems, etc) but that's my take on it.

I think it has more to do with someone who won't sit on you too heavy.

I'll buy that  :D
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 01, 2009, 04:11:46 pm
"Emotional Gear Two concerns itself with stabilizing ego-strength through Personal Freedom, Status, and Political Awareness.  Its basic driving force is territorial in that it defines emotions as territorial signals: Emotions get excited whenever ones sense of self, or territory, is diminished and/or augmented."  Time for the Monkey Dance!  In my mind, this seems to be one of the major circuits our current society is living in.  We've got a big problem on C4, for certain, but the xenophobia and neophobia seem to be where it all comes out to play.

I noticed a potential contradiction when he says, "The more selfish our motives, the more we shut ourselves off from the wholeness of life…" because a few pages back, he warns of being too inclusive of other people when making statements about ourselves.  I suppose it is part of a balancing act, to be personally present but to also recognize the Other. No real point here, I guess.  Just thinking out loud.

"Our personal freedom is sometimes defined by the manner in which we respond to invasion, violation and emotional challenge.  It takes a certain power to express ourselves in the midst of adversity."  As someone who typically keeps his head down and 'goes with the flow' (but often simply disregards the social game rules and follows his own), I realize that sometimes, you do have to stand up and be present, and say "no" out loud.  If the C1 needs to be safe, sometimes that means that C2 has to carve out a space in the social hierarchy. We can't just play C3 and C4 games, rationalizing and game changing all the time; we have to assert our place in a group. 

"Victims do not exist unless we have defined one or two other role players: 'saviors' and /or 'persecutors,' both of whom need victims to stay alive,  This holy trinity of emotional game playing can be creatively destroyed by simply choosing to save ourselves and/or providing our own punishment by playing the game intentionally.  Emotions can be expressed in a playful spirit by remembering, it's just a game."  Yeah, I suppose.  But if the saviors/persecutors see you're taking it lightly/not seriously, then you get meta-persecution because they'll see it as you mocking them.  This is an important concern if you actually care about the people who don't realize they're playing the role of savior/persecutor.  You can't just say "fuck it" and disregard them.  It takes everyone involved to be playing the game intentionally for this to work… 

"Personal freedom gives the necessary Permission to act outside of the socially accepted norms and standards of behaving."  But what about working with others inside the system?  I know C2 is about the sense of self, and how you relate with others, and this line is about escaping social constraints, but after you rebel, you eventually have to go back and interact with others again.  Then again, once you've broken away from the pack, you have the knowledge that it's possible, which gives you the flexibility to behave as you choose, and not because it's what is expected.

The next bit talks about competition, and how to deal with other people when you disagree, and how to generate "win/win" scenarios.  I'm not terribly convinced by it, though.  He first states that "There is an area in every emotional situation that expresses 'the mutual'," and that "whatever is not mutual is released… This means that whenever people want different things, they agree to just drop them in favor of whatever remains mutual to all concerned."  Even in the most general of situations, I can't see this working for me.  It would end up with me "releasing" just about everything I want to accomplish.  Maybe that’s the point, but wouldn't it be easier for him to say, "Tell everyone to fuck off, and go you own way"?

Next, he goes into Politics, also known as "power struggles".  He starts out pretty spot-on: "When we are unsure of our boundaries (how far we can tread around others without stepping on them and vice-versa), insecurity is the norm."  This makes sense to anyone who has been in a relationship with what's typically known as a "psycho":  They have radically different responses to identical behaviors/actions, and you're never sure how to act around them… Your own behavior is compromised due to uncertainty.

"Our alternative [to 'one up, one down' oppression status games] is finding the point of mutual autonomy between ourselves… where people are allowed the personal freedom of being themselves."  Well, sure.  When all involved know what's going on.  I suppose my objections here are that you have to live in a world with people who either don't know, don't care, or disagree with the 8C model.  So, in order for this model to be effective, it has to function independently of other people.  You need strategies and tricks to beat the 'one up/one down' games without the other person knowing or agreeing with what you're doing.  It's not manipulation, per se, it's being able to express your 2C strength without having to explain or convince others to play along. 

Third Circuit coming up next.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 01, 2009, 04:29:56 pm
This is really good commentary LMNO... The only comment I have is that in my reading of the book, it generally seems that AA talks within the context of the circuit being discussed. So for example, his concept of "Whatever is not mutual is released" generally deals (IMO) specifically with issues categorized as "Second Circuit" or "Territorial". So it is useful within the context of that circuit, but not as useful, say in the 3rd or 4th circuit. So rather than releasing everything you want to accomplish (probably a lot of which are 3rd and 4th circuit topics), I think it may be in emotional-territorial/hierarchical situations where mutualism comes strongly into play.

The same for being selfish verses inclusive. For Bio-Survival selfish is necessary because it deals almost entirely with Self. For the second circuit though, mutualism and inclusion are necessary because your now interacting with people.

One of AA's paratheatrical performances emphasizes this by having each actor play one of the circuits. They became identifiable by the way they interacted with others, or failed to interact with others. They weren't a congruous group, but very different... based on the circuit.

I also liked a discussion of the circuits by talking about when that 'circuit' "developed in evolution". Its still metaphor, obviously, but it kinda helped me to see the First Circuit as a Crocodile, Second circuit as a Dog, Third Circuit as a early human, just figuring out communication etc.

Ok, tjhats my only comment... this stuff is an excellent read :)
 
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 01, 2009, 04:41:23 pm
Yeah, I understand that you need to take the Gear out of context, and that by itself it can read as if that Gear is totally out of control... You need to integrate them all.

One thing he touched on that I think needs more thought is that these gears don't necessarily develop in a linear style, or even process information from an 1C -> 2C -> 3C way.  4C indoctrination often comes way before 3C is even fully established, and so on.  Some people may even open up 5C before 4C settles down.  But since writing is linear, we must explore these in a linear manner.  It's amusing that in order to explain all these Gears, he has to go full-blown 3C.

Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 01, 2009, 04:49:41 pm
Yeah, I understand that you need to take the Gear out of context, and that by itself it can read as if that Gear is totally out of control... You need to integrate them all.

One thing he touched on that I think needs more thought is that these gears don't necessarily develop in a linear style, or even process information from an 1C -> 2C -> 3C way.  4C indoctrination often comes way before 3C is even fully established, and so on.  Some people may even open up 5C before 4C settles down.  But since writing is linear, we must explore these in a linear manner.  It's amusing that in order to explain all these Gears, he has to go full-blown 3C.



The linear labels are definitely easy to create confusion. I wish Leary would have stayed with terms like "Emotional-Territorial" rather than Second Circuit... but the crazy hippie liked the Octave concept.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bu🤠ns on October 02, 2009, 06:03:28 am
Oh that's cool.  I haven't really considered them non-linearly before..that's kind of interesting.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 02, 2009, 03:24:08 pm
"Third Gear Conceptual Survival activates… concepts our mind uses to define what is real. Symbolic research includes the skills of Problem Solving, Map-Making, Articulation and the Power of Naming."  This right here is my main Gear.  Because of that, I tend to give it more importance when I talk about the 8C model.  So, fair warning: I'm biased like that.

One point where A.A. and I differ is the role and importance of the Pattern Maker.  That's right, the Law of Fives.  A.A. Seems to hold that there is still a higher order amid the chaos:  "'The apparent randomness by which Universe reveals itself is but a signal from a still higher sense of intrinsic order.' -An Ancient Confusionist Proverb".    He's right that 3C will find order inside chaos much more easily if you just relax and let it ride, but he seems to miss the point that the pattern itself has a good chance of being just as meaningless as the chaos.

There's also an emphasis on dream analysis, something I haven't put much stock in… However, there is a good line in among this: "Whosoever understands metaphor governs the mind."  That ties in with a lot of the "Map/Territory" stuff.  "Once you recognize the difference between the map and the territory… then it is possible to increase your Conceptual Intelligence by being aware of your thoughts as… thoughts."  So, I guess he does obliquely say that all the patterns you make are only maps.

In fact, he builds quite a bit off of the unspoken premise.  "The amazing thing about knowing how you think, talk and write [being aware of your map-making process] is this: You change reality by adjusting the way you think, talk and write about it.  The illusion is that reality changes.  The reality is that only your maps do."

But then he backtracks again.  "This symbolic skill of translating signals into useful information emerges as we come to think of ourselves more as interpreters, rather than "creators". Ourinterpretativeabilityisonlypreciseas [ha, ha] our definition of what is "meaningful..."  But since we constantly make patterns, our idea of "meaningful" might be completely divorced from what's really going on out there… as shown by Starbuck's Pebbles, which is on the very next page.

At this point, I'm starting to think that this whole chapter is teaching by example, because he starts making really good points about Maybe Logic.  "To enhance the elasticity of your thinking, refrain from thinking in black and white… Our thinking is only as flexible as our minds are open to incorporating the Unknown as a value."  I mean, he calls it "Factor X" which, IMO, is kind of stupid, but that doesn't make it less right.  "Factor X makes it possible for new information, not necessarily in agreement with previous concepts and beliefs, to be received and reviewed."  And then he puts his finger on the heart of the problem: "Once we are 'in the know' about something or someone, we suffer the misconception of thinking there is nothing left to learn."

Often, people say that to explain things, to be "too intellectual" about something, kills the idea.  A.A. cleverly gets around that, through "Evocation" and "Explanation": "To explain is to answer the WHY question. To evoke is to think, write or speak in such a manner as to trigger the experience of the energy or process in question. Where explaining might kill the spirit invoked in an attempt to comprehend, evocation conjures the very spirit forth to be moved by it."  So, while you can kill a joke by explaining it, you can also keep the joke going by evoking it.

He ends the chapter with "Too New Intelligence Tests" which are slightly too new-age for me, although the "six levels of intelligence" is interesting, and could be useful if we could take out the pre-existing judgmental qualities.  The second test just underscores his Annoyingly Optimistic trip:  If you're generally happy, you're smarter; if you're generally unhappy, you're stupider.  Whatever.

Fourth Gear on Monday, kids.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on October 02, 2009, 03:53:13 pm
Lovin it, LMNO.

I'm interested to see how you handle the karma mechanics sections that come next. For me, they were the most important part of the book (besides the excitement and resistance part). Especially 2nd circuit.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 02, 2009, 03:56:07 pm
One thing I wish he would say more clearly is, "It's a good thing to keep making as many maps as possible, and as quickly as possible, but remember that most of those maps are probably complete bullshit."
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on October 02, 2009, 03:59:48 pm
One thing I wish he would say more clearly is, "It's a good thing to keep making as many maps as possible, and as quickly as possible, but remember that most of those maps are probably complete bullshit."

But also useful bullshit.

Some people think its weird when I can hold two different views of reality in rapid succession without cognitive dissonance. Pretty easy when you recognize the usefulness of map switching for each situation. I'm still no good at talking with evangelical Christians though. That particular map just feels dirty in many ways.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 02, 2009, 04:29:48 pm
One thing I wish he would say more clearly is, "It's a good thing to keep making as many maps as possible, and as quickly as possible, but remember that most of those maps are probably complete bullshit."

... in some sense.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on October 02, 2009, 04:42:10 pm
Hm. I am beginning to wonder if it will be more efficent to read the book, or to read LMNO's commentary and everyone else's reactions to it. It seems like the meat of the book has been summarized, with minimal anti-wording rage.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 02, 2009, 04:52:11 pm
Knowing that, I may start intentionally throwing in stuff that has nothing to do with the book, just to fuck with you.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on October 02, 2009, 05:10:18 pm
I can't help but imagine that A.A. did that himself. Isn't that RAW's modus operandi too?
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 02, 2009, 05:19:07 pm
Hm. I am beginning to wonder if it will be more efficent to read the book, or to read LMNO's commentary and everyone else's reactions to it. It seems like the meat of the book has been summarized, with minimal anti-wording rage.

The book you talk about is not the book you read.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Cain on October 02, 2009, 05:30:28 pm
The bit in Angel Tech where Antero Alli saves the Vatican from the fake Illuminati by dropping a nuclear bomb over an area of unstable exotic energy to reset the timeline is pretty good.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on October 02, 2009, 06:56:31 pm
Hm. I am beginning to wonder if it will be more efficent to read the book, or to read LMNO's commentary and everyone else's reactions to it. It seems like the meat of the book has been summarized, with minimal anti-wording rage.

The book you talk about is not the book you read.  :lulz:

But may be precisely as useful. Or, some cases, moreso.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 02, 2009, 07:19:58 pm
The bit in Angel Tech where Antero Alli saves the Vatican from the fake Illuminati by dropping a nuclear bomb over an area of unstable exotic energy to reset the timeline is pretty good.

I know, right?  But to me, the single most unforgettable part is when he admits be being Keyser Soze.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Cain on October 03, 2009, 12:07:26 am
I dunno, it would've been better if we didn't know that Keyser Soze was originally dreamt up by three bored publishing assistants with too much spare time, access to every crime novel in existence, and a computer.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bu🤠ns on October 03, 2009, 06:19:27 am
Thanks, LMNO, i appreciate your taking time for this.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Triple Zero on October 03, 2009, 10:59:44 am
The bit in Angel Tech where Antero Alli saves the Vatican from the fake Illuminati by dropping a nuclear bomb over an area of unstable exotic energy to reset the timeline is pretty good.

I know, right?  But to me, the single most unforgettable part is when he admits be being Keyser Soze.

The bit about him "charging his sigil" from the balcony all over St Peter's Square was a littlebit much, though.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on October 04, 2009, 03:24:40 am
I dunno, it would've been better if we didn't know that Keyser Soze was originally dreamt up by three bored publishing assistants with too much spare time, access to every crime novel in existence, and a computer.

OH OH yeah! And when one of them finally got so jaded and decided to go to the meeting place anyway, he found out every conspiracy ever made was true. Well, at least the participants THOUGHt they were true.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 05, 2009, 04:26:45 pm
"Fourth Gear Social Intelligence is defined through the manner by which we relate with others."

Because our first three gears determine how we react to external stimuli, we review them briefly.  "1) First Gear is THE BODY. 2) Second Gear are BELIEFS. 3) Third Gear, THE INTELLECT."  Wait – Second Gear is "beliefs"?  I think I missed something.  I thought second gear was "territory" or "hierarchy" or something like that.  I'm not sure how "beliefs" tie in.

Well, no time to discuss that because we're breaking 4th gear into three parts: "Socially, there are three major phases of personality development: 1) Big Kids (or Adolescents) 2) Adults and 3) The Process of Collectivization… The Big Kid phase, hereafter referred to as Adolescence, is essentially self-indulgent, egotistical and narcissistic due to its wild and experimental nature. This also seems to apply to any adolescent entity, be it a group, corporation, nation or spiritual movement… Characterized by high flux, adolescent phases often appear 'socially irresponsible'." The summation is a bit sophomoric, but I like how he applies it to groups and organizations… In a way, he is giving a nod to mass psychology… there is an implication, however, that if groups can work on Fourth Gear principles, perhaps the previous gears can be applied, as well.  Something to think about.

He sort of bounces past the second part (Adults) by saying they are concerned with linear time due to the Death Realization.  Without explaining this further (really?  Linear time is the big idea for what it means to be an adult?), he goes straight on to Collectivization, which are things like political parties, religious groups, fetish clubs, and LARP-ing.  Of course, therein lies danger: "In time, the personalities of individual group members can tend to dissipate their unique and singular characteristics in favor of the more standardized, homogenous blend of that collective's lowest common denominator."  Which relates back to the point that if groups have a Fourth Gear, they may have lower Gear Settings that are necessary to have in order to "belong." 

Thankfully, it appears we may get some clarity.  The reason Adolescence is needed is to jump into as many social situations as possible, and seeing if people like us for whom we are, or for whom they want us to be.  We do this naturally, thought hormonal surges, and consciously; through it all, we make and break personal relationships.  "If friendship is only based in emotional support, ego-stroking or personal attraction, it falls apart whenever these conditions are withdrawn. Perhaps, a true friend is someone who, somehow, encourages us to be completely ourselves and occasionally challenges our "act" in order to touch our hearts. 'Opposition is Friendship.' - William Blake".

A.A. then takes an interesting stance, and seems to take the position that parts 2 and 3 of Gear Four are not that desirable.  He advises consciously prolonging Adolescence, and even comes up with a word for it so as to make us feel better: "Neoteny" (although you biology students might blanch at the term).  "Neoteny is catalyzed through a careful, non-judgmental study of adolescent characteristics and their acceptance and integration in a creative lifestyle. The spirit of experimentation so crucial to Adolescence necessitates a certain daring…Neoteny is dependent upon improvisatory skills of quick, in-the-moment adjustments to new information."  He then defines an ideal adulthood as a process of refining the Neoteny rather than abandoning it.  I tend to agree with him, but I do find it interesting when he says, "it can be approached consciously or as a robot for DNA. When we are ready to style our own domestic advance, we are more free to bypass the generic models passed down by DNA as our Ancestral Gestalt...that group-mind made up of generations of our genetic heritage."  Interesting because he seems to be establishing a battle between our minds and our genes.  Cue the "Cartesian Duality" headslap.

Oooh.  It's time to talk about sex!  And imprinting!  And totally re-defining what the term "imprinting" means!  That is, your sexual tastes can be re-imprinted fairly easily. "The classic way to erase the old imprint and initiate a new one is in being celibate for about three months or more and then engaging sexually only under preferred conditions."  Anyone want to try this out and see if they can "turn gay" and back again?  Whoops, time to move along to something that isn't complete bullshit.  Let's move on to collectivization.

After a brief acknowledgement that we are pack animals, and that to belong in a pack we need to follow certain game rules, we get to the crux of the matter: "Collectivization begins with sacrificing individual differences for the morality of a particular collective over ones sense of 'right and wrong'." So-called "cult" behavior, then, is simply a codified state of human nature.  Amusingly, A.A. teeters on the edge of his own trap, as his language tries to be fair to conformists-and non-conformists alike, but ultimately draws a circle around the cool kids: Others generate enough inner pressure so as not to feel obliged to conform to external sources. These are the "odd balls" unable to fit the mold of any collectively defined morality... those rare individuals who have chosen a greater solitude and, as a result, continue to run against the grain of collectively defined truths, while forging their paths to the beat of different drummers."

Ah, if only we could all be as free and enlightened as them.  We’re in luck!  The next section teaches us how to fix our problems!
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Cramulus on October 05, 2009, 04:32:00 pm
I'm enjoying your analysis, LMNO
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 05, 2009, 04:34:46 pm
Honestly, I thought that this was what we all were gonna do when we suggested a book club.  I was just starting to do this for PWC when Mack exposed his dickishness and killed any desire I had to do any further analysis.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: fomenter on October 05, 2009, 04:53:32 pm
i think you are nailing it on the head lmno, i doubt i would have the patience to make a so detailed report..

i gave up on macks book after he showed up and haven't read this one in twenty years  so i haven't been making many comments...
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Cain on October 05, 2009, 05:03:17 pm
I didn't read the book.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 05, 2009, 05:14:33 pm
"Fourth Gear Social Intelligence is defined through the manner by which we relate with others."

Because our first three gears determine how we react to external stimuli, we review them briefly.  "1) First Gear is THE BODY. 2) Second Gear are BELIEFS. 3) Third Gear, THE INTELLECT."  Wait – Second Gear is "beliefs"?  I think I missed something.  I thought second gear was "territory" or "hierarchy" or something like that.  I'm not sure how "beliefs" tie in.

This is an example (I think) where AA mentions stuff in passing that he hasn't bothered to actually explain previously. In Prometheus Rising, RAW talks about how Strong Beliefs end up replacing Physical Territory in many instances of modern society. For example, some Christian responses to evolution appear to happen at the second circuit rather than the third or fourth. Some Atheists seem to function at the second circuit when it comes to the topic of religion. Unfortunately, AA doesn't really seem to discuss this, he just refers to it and its confusing.

Quote
Well, no time to discuss that because we're breaking 4th gear into three parts: "Socially, there are three major phases of personality development: 1) Big Kids (or Adolescents) 2) Adults and 3) The Process of Collectivization… The Big Kid phase, hereafter referred to as Adolescence, is essentially self-indulgent, egotistical and narcissistic due to its wild and experimental nature. This also seems to apply to any adolescent entity, be it a group, corporation, nation or spiritual movement… Characterized by high flux, adolescent phases often appear 'socially irresponsible'." The summation is a bit sophomoric, but I like how he applies it to groups and organizations… In a way, he is giving a nod to mass psychology… there is an implication, however, that if groups can work on Fourth Gear principles, perhaps the previous gears can be applied, as well.  Something to think about.

In other discussions of the system, its generally held that the circuits developed as social evolution developed. The third circuit was the point where Person A could use semantics and time binding to communicate something to Person B. So the fourth circuit is generally considered as the first major social circuit. However, I think this might be an artifact of the linear labels. It seems to me that while your imprints for 1st and 2nd circuit generally predate you social interactions (outside of Mom and Dad and siblings)... once you have the fourth circuit engaged, maybe it trickles down through the others.

We need only look at PD.com and occasionally see what might be called the second circuit group dynamic.  :wink:



Quote
He sort of bounces past the second part (Adults) by saying they are concerned with linear time due to the Death Realization.  Without explaining this further (really?  Linear time is the big idea for what it means to be an adult?), he goes straight on to Collectivization, which are things like political parties, religious groups, fetish clubs, and LARP-ing.  Of course, therein lies danger: "In time, the personalities of individual group members can tend to dissipate their unique and singular characteristics in favor of the more standardized, homogenous blend of that collective's lowest common denominator."  Which relates back to the point that if groups have a Fourth Gear, they may have lower Gear Settings that are necessary to have in order to "belong." 

Thankfully, it appears we may get some clarity.  The reason Adolescence is needed is to jump into as many social situations as possible, and seeing if people like us for whom we are, or for whom they want us to be.  We do this naturally, thought hormonal surges, and consciously; through it all, we make and break personal relationships.  "If friendship is only based in emotional support, ego-stroking or personal attraction, it falls apart whenever these conditions are withdrawn. Perhaps, a true friend is someone who, somehow, encourages us to be completely ourselves and occasionally challenges our "act" in order to touch our hearts. 'Opposition is Friendship.' - William Blake".

A.A. then takes an interesting stance, and seems to take the position that parts 2 and 3 of Gear Four are not that desirable.  He advises consciously prolonging Adolescence, and even comes up with a word for it so as to make us feel better: "Neoteny" (although you biology students might blanch at the term).  "Neoteny is catalyzed through a careful, non-judgmental study of adolescent characteristics and their acceptance and integration in a creative lifestyle. The spirit of experimentation so crucial to Adolescence necessitates a certain daring…Neoteny is dependent upon improvisatory skills of quick, in-the-moment adjustments to new information."  He then defines an ideal adulthood as a process of refining the Neoteny rather than abandoning it.  I tend to agree with him, but I do find it interesting when he says, "it can be approached consciously or as a robot for DNA. When we are ready to style our own domestic advance, we are more free to bypass the generic models passed down by DNA as our Ancestral Gestalt...that group-mind made up of generations of our genetic heritage."  Interesting because he seems to be establishing a battle between our minds and our genes.  Cue the "Cartesian Duality" headslap.

Yep, definately some "this is Good, this is Bad" here. I liked RAW's discussion of this concept better in PR. He said that biologically "Adult" means "Done growing" and as humans there's no reason to be 'done growing'. Generally though, I find AA to be less thoughtful that RAW about how he's laying out the argument. He tends to do a great job in conversation, but makes some leaps which are definitely getting in the way of his point.  But then, I don't think he claims that his book is Neutral. He is trying to push people a bit toward a more open worldview and so I can read his "Duality" from that perspective... its still annoying as hell though ;-)

Quote
Oooh.  It's time to talk about sex!  And imprinting!  And totally re-defining what the term "imprinting" means!  That is, your sexual tastes can be re-imprinted fairly easily. "The classic way to erase the old imprint and initiate a new one is in being celibate for about three months or more and then engaging sexually only under preferred conditions."  Anyone want to try this out and see if they can "turn gay" and back again?  Whoops, time to move along to something that isn't complete bullshit.  Let's move on to collectivization.

Yeah, I never figured out where he got that idea from. Leary certainly didn't think re-imprinting was that simple, neither did RAW (so that covers the others authors I've read that discuss the 8 circuit model). I mean, the whole "Leary is crazy psychedelic guy" was because he felt psychedelics were a necessary tool in re-imprinting. RAW's views included stuff like Tantra, but overall, abstaining from sex as the sole tool to re-imprint seems absurd to me.

Quote
After a brief acknowledgement that we are pack animals, and that to belong in a pack we need to follow certain game rules, we get to the crux of the matter: "Collectivization begins with sacrificing individual differences for the morality of a particular collective over ones sense of 'right and wrong'." So-called "cult" behavior, then, is simply a codified state of human nature.  Amusingly, A.A. teeters on the edge of his own trap, as his language tries to be fair to conformists-and non-conformists alike, but ultimately draws a circle around the cool kids: Others generate enough inner pressure so as not to feel obliged to conform to external sources. These are the "odd balls" unable to fit the mold of any collectively defined morality... those rare individuals who have chosen a greater solitude and, as a result, continue to run against the grain of collectively defined truths, while forging their paths to the beat of different drummers."

Ah, if only we could all be as free and enlightened as them.  We’re in luck!  The next section teaches us how to fix our problems!


Again, this book should definitely not be seen as agnostic. AA has a view of what is best and promotes it. It seems a bit hypocritical in some areas of the book.

Excellent observations so far LMNO, I like it!
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Triple Zero on October 05, 2009, 06:04:14 pm
I didn't read the book.

me neither but I'm gonna read LMNO's notes later on for sure.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on October 05, 2009, 08:00:40 pm


Oooh.  It's time to talk about sex!  And imprinting!  And totally re-defining what the term "imprinting" means!  That is, your sexual tastes can be re-imprinted fairly easily. "The classic way to erase the old imprint and initiate a new one is in being celibate for about three months or more and then engaging sexually only under preferred conditions."  Anyone want to try this out and see if they can "turn gay" and back again?  Whoops, time to move along to something that isn't complete bullshit.  Let's move on to collectivization.


Just so you know, I was celibate for a year and a half. No masturbation, nothing. Due to the reimprinting that you think is so totally full of shit my sexual interests are completely different now than they were at one time.

Maybe it's just my mood right now but I want to punch you in the face. That aside, I like your commentary and I'm glad you're continuing.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 05, 2009, 08:03:04 pm
Y'know, I'm really liking this new side of your personality, Kai.



No troll.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 05, 2009, 08:07:03 pm


Oooh.  It's time to talk about sex!  And imprinting!  And totally re-defining what the term "imprinting" means!  That is, your sexual tastes can be re-imprinted fairly easily. "The classic way to erase the old imprint and initiate a new one is in being celibate for about three months or more and then engaging sexually only under preferred conditions."  Anyone want to try this out and see if they can "turn gay" and back again?  Whoops, time to move along to something that isn't complete bullshit.  Let's move on to collectivization.


Just so you know, I was celibate for a year and a half. No masturbation, nothing. Due to the reimprinting that you think is so totally full of shit my sexual interests are completely different now than they were at one time.

Maybe it's just my mood right now but I want to punch you in the face. That aside, I like your commentary and I'm glad you're continuing.

:mittens:

DAMN KAI! Looks like 4 wasn't the only circuit you poked at!

Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on October 05, 2009, 08:26:58 pm
Doesn't being celibate and engaging in sex only under certain conditions qualify as operant conditioning? It doesn't appear to correlate with the pre-Leary idea of 'imprinting' at all, to me, but obviously Leary extended the model out from identifying the mother and learning not to fuck siblings.

It seems quite likely to work, mind you. I am just unsure whether or not it qualifies as imprinting outside of the 8 circuit model.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on October 05, 2009, 08:27:42 pm


Oooh.  It's time to talk about sex!  And imprinting!  And totally re-defining what the term "imprinting" means!  That is, your sexual tastes can be re-imprinted fairly easily. "The classic way to erase the old imprint and initiate a new one is in being celibate for about three months or more and then engaging sexually only under preferred conditions."  Anyone want to try this out and see if they can "turn gay" and back again?  Whoops, time to move along to something that isn't complete bullshit.  Let's move on to collectivization.


Just so you know, I was celibate for a year and a half. No masturbation, nothing. Due to the reimprinting that you think is so totally full of shit my sexual interests are completely different now than they were at one time.

Maybe it's just my mood right now but I want to punch you in the face. That aside, I like your commentary and I'm glad you're continuing.

I kinda like this new Kai.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on October 05, 2009, 08:30:04 pm
I mean, I'm not saying that I'm no longer bi, but the sort of people (regardless of sex/gender) and the sort of sexual activities I'm interested in have changed, very very different from what they were before. It works, though AA may be wrong about the length of time and the mindset required.

Y'know, I'm really liking this new side of your personality, Kai.

No troll.

DAMN KAI! Looks like 4 wasn't the only circuit you poked at!

Yeah, I've been working on setting boundaries, and not being a doormat. Seems to be turning out well. People treat me differently, better, with more respect for my personal space, both physical and psychological.

Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on October 05, 2009, 08:31:39 pm
Yeah, I've been working on setting boundaries, and not being a doormat. Seems to be turning out well. People treat me differently, better, with more respect for my personal space, both physical and psychological.

Plus, it feels good, sometimes.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on October 05, 2009, 08:40:08 pm
Yeah, I've been working on setting boundaries, and not being a doormat. Seems to be turning out well. People treat me differently, better, with more respect for my personal space, both physical and psychological.

Plus, it feels good, sometimes.

On Saturday, I was coming back from the assistantship work to meet up with my parents who had driven down here for the weekend, a short visit. Being tired and hungry, unable to find their hotel and meet up, and just wanting to lay down for a while, I proceeded to drive around town speeding and screaming at the top of my lungs. After a few minutes of that, I felt a little better, and was finally able to find their hotel.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on October 05, 2009, 08:42:17 pm
Doesn't being celibate and engaging in sex only under certain conditions qualify as operant conditioning? It doesn't appear to correlate with the pre-Leary idea of 'imprinting' at all, to me, but obviously Leary extended the model out from identifying the mother and learning not to fuck siblings.

It seems quite likely to work, mind you. I am just unsure whether or not it qualifies as imprinting outside of the 8 circuit model.

I'm using the words imprinting and reimprinting to refer to whatever this conditioning is thats going on. Is that okay with you Enki, or should I be pedantic about it?
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on October 05, 2009, 09:08:34 pm
Yeah, I've been working on setting boundaries, and not being a doormat. Seems to be turning out well. People treat me differently, better, with more respect for my personal space, both physical and psychological.

Plus, it feels good, sometimes.

On Saturday, I was coming back from the assistantship work to meet up with my parents who had driven down here for the weekend, a short visit. Being tired and hungry, unable to find their hotel and meet up, and just wanting to lay down for a while, I proceeded to drive around town speeding and screaming at the top of my lungs. After a few minutes of that, I felt a little better, and was finally able to find their hotel.
That usually works pretty well.  Unless you get hauled over and beaten by cops for being a terrorist.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on October 05, 2009, 09:18:56 pm
Doesn't being celibate and engaging in sex only under certain conditions qualify as operant conditioning? It doesn't appear to correlate with the pre-Leary idea of 'imprinting' at all, to me, but obviously Leary extended the model out from identifying the mother and learning not to fuck siblings.

It seems quite likely to work, mind you. I am just unsure whether or not it qualifies as imprinting outside of the 8 circuit model.

I'm using the words imprinting and reimprinting to refer to whatever this conditioning is thats going on. Is that okay with you Enki, or should I be pedantic about it?

I'm okay as long as we identify which definitions we are using.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on October 05, 2009, 09:20:29 pm
Doesn't being celibate and engaging in sex only under certain conditions qualify as operant conditioning? It doesn't appear to correlate with the pre-Leary idea of 'imprinting' at all, to me, but obviously Leary extended the model out from identifying the mother and learning not to fuck siblings.

It seems quite likely to work, mind you. I am just unsure whether or not it qualifies as imprinting outside of the 8 circuit model.

I'm using the words imprinting and reimprinting to refer to whatever this conditioning is thats going on. Is that okay with you Enki, or should I be pedantic about it?

I'm okay as long as we identify which definitions we are using.

It's okay, anyway.  You don't have the chops to tell Kai what is and is not acceptable.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on October 05, 2009, 09:22:14 pm
Yeah, I've been working on setting boundaries, and not being a doormat. Seems to be turning out well. People treat me differently, better, with more respect for my personal space, both physical and psychological.

Plus, it feels good, sometimes.

On Saturday, I was coming back from the assistantship work to meet up with my parents who had driven down here for the weekend, a short visit. Being tired and hungry, unable to find their hotel and meet up, and just wanting to lay down for a while, I proceeded to drive around town speeding and screaming at the top of my lungs. After a few minutes of that, I felt a little better, and was finally able to find their hotel.
That usually works pretty well.  Unless you get hauled over and beaten by cops for being a terrorist.

I had the windows rolled up.

It echoed better.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on October 05, 2009, 09:23:07 pm
Yeah, I've been working on setting boundaries, and not being a doormat. Seems to be turning out well. People treat me differently, better, with more respect for my personal space, both physical and psychological.

Plus, it feels good, sometimes.

On Saturday, I was coming back from the assistantship work to meet up with my parents who had driven down here for the weekend, a short visit. Being tired and hungry, unable to find their hotel and meet up, and just wanting to lay down for a while, I proceeded to drive around town speeding and screaming at the top of my lungs. After a few minutes of that, I felt a little better, and was finally able to find their hotel.
That usually works pretty well.  Unless you get hauled over and beaten by cops for being a terrorist.

I had the windows rolled up.

It echoed better.

Loses some effect, though.  Insufficient terrorized locals.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on October 05, 2009, 09:54:51 pm
Doesn't being celibate and engaging in sex only under certain conditions qualify as operant conditioning? It doesn't appear to correlate with the pre-Leary idea of 'imprinting' at all, to me, but obviously Leary extended the model out from identifying the mother and learning not to fuck siblings.

It seems quite likely to work, mind you. I am just unsure whether or not it qualifies as imprinting outside of the 8 circuit model.

I'm using the words imprinting and reimprinting to refer to whatever this conditioning is thats going on. Is that okay with you Enki, or should I be pedantic about it?

I'm okay as long as we identify which definitions we are using.

I thought it was pretty clear by context.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on October 05, 2009, 09:58:20 pm
Context sensitivity isn't my strong point. Better to make sure.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 08, 2009, 03:10:02 pm
So now, we get to the tricky part: We've established the model, great.  But what if we don't like what the model is telling us?  Sure, we can identify that our second Gear is stuck, but what the hell do we do about it?

The exercises ahead seem to be a blend of different physical and mental disciplines.  They physical we can pretty much get a good grasp on, doing X movement will probably give you Y result.  The meditations and visualizations however… well, we'll have to leave it at the "try it out, see if it works" level.  I will say this: If we buy into the placebo effect, and if we can agree that sometimes, the brain needs to be tricked into changing with slight of hand, chanting, and picturing columns of white light, then so be it.  

First, a bit of good advice: "The first thing to remember is: Be Kind To The Robot. Most malfunctions are associated with faulty or outdated programming, which, of course, is the user's responsibility. The robot simply follows orders and only takes command when nobody else wants to."  

We then learn about the four major ways you can fuck up a gear:

"Confusion Alert - The basic disorientation occurring when an idea of reality contradicts and/or resists the living experience of that reality itself."

"Pretty Vacant - To the degree a particular gear remains unclaimed, there exists a fundamental inertia around that function of survival... diminishing its innate intelligence."

"Broken Record - When one gear becomes over-emphasized, immobilization often sets in and the robot "spins out" in a non-stop fashion of ineffective surviving."

"Short Circuit - This happens when a survival gear can no longer operate as a support function for its overtone as a result of a sudden blast and/or overwhelming influx of High School [read: Higher Gear] information."  This brings up again the concept that Gears 1 – 4 map up with Gears 5 – 8… When we get there, I can see making a case for the first couple, but it's still a reach when you get up there.

Anyway, please note that all four of these problems can overlap, so the "big picture" of how fucked up your mind is gets pretty complex… Over 500 different combinations, if I have my math right.  Add in to that the fact that the level of "excitement/restriction" of each Gear is not polar, and… yeah.  

Then you have to factor in, "Every robot heals at a different pace and style of recovery based in its programs. If somebody does not want to be healed, they won't."  This ties in to his love of Positive Affirmations.  Again, if you have to trick the body into healing itself, then yeah.  But like I said before, it can get really annoying if you have to listen to it all day.

So: Onward with fixing the First Gear.

"FIRST GEAR - Confusion Alert - Physical disorientation often occurs when body-images are out of sync with body realities."  Basically, love yourself for what you look like.  Yeah, I know.  The new age, feel-good stuff starts right out of the gate.  But here's the thing… That new age stuff might sound bad and look worse, but they've got a point.  It's fairly obvious that people who hate their bodies usually end up hating themselves.  And self-pity is no fun to be around.  So, what does A.A. suggest you do about this?

Meditating.  Or more properly, sitting without moving (or falling asleep).  The weird thing is, until you've actually tried this, you don't realize just how hard it is.  If you're focused, you do pick up on how active your body is, all the time, and mostly unnecessarily so.  Pay no attention to A.A.'s explanation about how the body fears "nothingness".  For me, it's more an act of showing myself that it's really ok to relax.  It's good for feeling where you're tense, not just knots and cramps, but where your muscles clench up for no reason, like they're trying to protect you form something.  That seems to relate to the Reichean Body Armor business.  So, give it a shot.  It's one of the more digestible ones, it's not like he's asking you to picture majikal unicorns or anything.

He then shoehorns in a paragraph which brings up that First Gear could be considered the "ego", that part of us that is pure "self".  To be honest, I'm not sure where he's going with that, other than a brief polemic against the "anti-ego" movements of the 60s.  He mentions that one reason we might want to deny the ego is because we fear existence… I suppose that would be a radical Resistance in First Gear.  In a way, maybe he has a point.  If we're afraid for our safety in this world, then we are afraid of existing in the world, because it is a scary and dangerous place.  But if we feel safe in who we are, we feel we can deal with the world.  And apparently, safety begins with the way you feel.  So: "One solution to the fear of existence is the practice of Making Statements….Being direct and definite in self-expression helps... The direct expression of our fears and needs to be taken care of brings us a little closer to reclaiming Physical Intelligence".  He doesn't elaborate on this, so I guess we need to.

First Gear, as A.A. claims, it kind of like a baby.  They appear to be pure ego, wanting what they want, and even if they have no language, they will tell you that they want, in no uncertain terms.  Before we can become nuanced, we need to have a solid concept of being.  Interestingly enough, this ties into the (supposed) satire of E'', or "Roger Prime".  MAKE THOSE STATEMENTS, BITCHES.  Tap into those deep, deep currents of hunger and fear, and make them known.  Start seeing what shape that Gear takes, what makes it flinch, what it races towards.  Don't try to guide it, let it take you.  Of course, you don't want to live there, but if you're going to Pimp your Ride, you’ve got to start from the bottom up.

I'm not sure I like his assertion that accidents are "wake up calls".  And I especially don't like his repeating riff about the "NO COINCIDENCES DEPARTMENT".  If you want to play the Lo5 game that way, fine.  But it's a bit to omnisciently theistic if you ask me.  And in the end, that's not really important to the idea of Confusion Alert in First Gear.  This is: "Perhaps the most severe form of the Confusion Alert comes as the idea that the body is an 'inferior or lower' self suspected of the most heinous intentions. These kinds of body-images perpetrate the belief in a "split" "between the body and the spirit."  LOL, Cartesian Duality.

But he does have a good point.  If our bodies are the only thing we have, there's no good reason to denigrate it, except for Control.  "Any spiritual doctrine denying the body and its free expression also creates a basic confusion around body-images, hence, indirectly enslaving members to that particular religion. Organized religion has been… a means of social control throughout history. Sects… all support a basic conflict in the primitive mind about the body. The body is seen as anything from 'evil' to an impediment on the path of enlightenment, something one must overcome and come to grips with."  Whether or not you're on this ride for spiritual or mental reasons (A.A. seems to think we're all reading his book to find an "Inner God"), treating the body like it's more than a meatsack is an important step in taking control of the Robot.  "First Grade Graduation does not mean leaving physical Intelligence behind. On the contrary, we are now ready to take our body with us. The physical body… is the substantial portion of the rest of us and is not separate."

Wow, this got long.  "Pretty Vacant" in First Gear is next.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on October 09, 2009, 02:58:10 am
Yay. :)
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bu🤠ns on October 09, 2009, 03:31:56 am
I think i'm going to compile some of these notable posts (mainly lmno's, heh) and re-read this book.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 09, 2009, 03:43:01 pm
I think I'll just post a few quotes, and comment when needed.

"First Gear Robot Malfunction preoccupies itself with more functional problems. The conflict often occurs when we are Pretty Vacant and expresses symptoms of: 1) Fear 2) Depression 3) Low Energy States and, of course, 4) Inertia."

"Many times, the individual is on "automatic pilot" with physical survival issues because they are not running on their own program but that of their parents."

"The process of becoming a Mother to oneself often follows the disillusioning realization, or enlightenment, that there is really nobody else around to do this [meet your security needs]."

"Depression may follow helplessness when we expect somebody to come by and take care of us… Another factor to this inertia is the growing disappointment of feeling unappreciated. Eventually, the momentum of these negative emotions effects an immobilization… an inability to move. The real danger is Getting Used To Not Moving."

"The first adjustment necessary to release inertia comes with a conscious choice to use comfort instead of making it a goal."  Ok, this is interesting.  If you set your sights higher than just being comfortable, then you're going to have to get your shit straight before you get there.  So, you don't get comfortable, and then decide you're done, because that will dump you right back into inertia.  You get comfortable, and then you can go out and kick some ass.

So, those quotes were pretty good:  Find out who programmed your survival anxiety; Be aware of it; Admit you're on your own when it comes to feeling safe; If you don't, you'll drag yourself down; Being safe isn't a goal, it’s a means to an end.  Great.  But then he goes all mystical again, and talks about "grounding energy through other people" (psychic vampires, anyone?) before veering off into nutritional advice.  I get it: A lot of people are unhealthy, and their diet can affect their physical and mental moods.  But for fuck's sake, go biological.  Don't give us "The most alive or biogenic foods are the ones that are still alive, like sprouts from seeds and beans, uncooked and raw. The next most alive or bioactive foods are fruits and vegetables in their ripe, mature and naturally sweetened stages, which also includes uncooked but unsprouted seed, bean and grain. Biostatic foods (foods which initiate aging in us) are all cooked foods not using refined sugars, flours and/or preservatives. Biocidic (lifedeteriorating) foods include refined sugars and flours, fats and preservatives."

Srsly.

Hmm.  Didn't spend as much time on that as the previous.  I think we have time to look into Broken Record, Gear One.  Hang on kids… We're about to get metaphysical.

"One result of over-emphasizing Physical Survival is an obsession with security issues… When physical needs are not met directly enough, security will become the preoccupation until these needs are recognized for what they are and fulfilled."  Ok, no metaphysics just yet.  Broken Record is the over-emphasis on one Gear, and so if you don't feel safe, you'll spend all your time worrying about safety, in a non-verbal, pre-intelligence way.  That irrational, panic-type worry.  As RAW has stated, a lot of us have transferred this onto money, which is why people have anxiety attacks when finances are mentioned.

"The most direct way of assimilating, or organizing, an excess input of survival information is through the physical rest of sleep… In the deeper, more profound states of sleep, the ego (personal consciousness) completely merges with the I AM universal life spirit, thus, releasing all our latent powers of organization into action."  Ah, there we go.  I told you we were going to get heavy.  Again, this is more A.A.'s worldview than about the 8C model.  While it's true that when the physical body is stressed it can't deal well with safety issues, and that sleep is a good way to deal with stress, I'm gonna have to pass on the I AM universal life spirit.  I'll stick with, "Those of us who live for security as a way of life, philosophy and/or religion run the risk of trying to stop an ever-changing world…Due to the ever-changing nature of the organism itself, any excessive emphasis on enforcing order simply compels more disorder and chaos." 

So, let's talk about how to stop the Broken Record.  Ah.  More meditation.  But this time, with visualizations.  I will NOT get into his use of the word "energy", nor quibble with the concept of the Earth as some semi-conscious thing.  Those who remember the TCC and MW lulz know where I stand on all that.  For the sake of moving forward, I will do my best to interpret what he's saying, and maybe even try to re-explain it.  Maybe.

Anyway, the first step is tricking your body into breathing fully.  Basically, sit up straight, and concentrate on your breathing.  To get your body fully into it, pretend you are sucking some kind of "energy" up through your feet and up your ass (it helps to think of the first chakra, if you're into that.  Otherwise, imaging the earth sodomizing your spine with every breath).  Once your blood is fully oxygenated, vocalize to get resonances in your head and chest.  It feels good, and makes you very aware of your physical body.  Pay no attention to his use of the phrases "integrity conduits" and the like.  Do the meditation, see if you like the way it feels, and name it what you want.  For me, it seems to promote body awareness, and comfort.  Since this is pretty much what First Gear is supposed to be about, I consider it useful in that way.

I am, however, going to try to ignore his "group meditations", where you become some sort of "Universal Ground" and go around stabilizing each other.  The less said about that, the better.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on October 09, 2009, 10:01:55 pm
Again, I really like your comments LMNO. You bring up most of the stuff I was unwilling to consider at the time, just trying some new filters, but now I realize bothered me. And you highlight all the good stuff that made reading AT worth while.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 09, 2009, 10:04:55 pm
Thanks, Kai.  It's helping me focus on the text more, as well.  I think doing this will be a form of therapy, as I will probably absorb the information better after having to re-process it.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 12, 2009, 08:39:22 pm
"Short Circuit, or "over-amping", on the Physical Level is when we absorb more sensory input than we can contain."  I don't know if "contain" is the right word, but I know what he's talking about.  Because he connects C1 with C5, getting waaaay too high and ending up a complete wreck seems to be the extreme version of this.  So, what's the fix?

Well, apparently, there is a four-stage process that needs to happen.  Maybe.  You see, he doesn't really talk about the First Gear Short Circuit as a Mechanical Problem from this point forward.  He seems to call the Short Circuit a form of cosmic Bliss, a "rapturous state".  And while I sometimes have interpreted one of my better highs (usually this happened on acid, sometimes on pot) as an "unfiltered" perception of reality (as unfiltered as biologically possible, of course), I've also had some of the most terrifying, soul-sucking experiences when I've physically been assaulted by sensory input.  Perhaps we're meant to understand that the two are identical; maybe that they both should be treated the same way.  Let's be charitable and think of it that way, and not that he's trying to shoehorn a few random concepts into the book.

So, the four stages are "pleasure" to "dispersion" to "restraint" to "understanding", or Bliss, Coming Down, Pulling Back, and Interpretation.  That is to say, there is a transcendental moment, which then passes.  At that point, you need to back off, and figure out what just happened.  I agree, but it's much easier said that done, especially the restraint part.  There is a natural progression from Pleasure to Dispersion, as the Moment where it all seems so clear begins to fade, or the Moment when terror makes you shit your pants passes.  What's not so simple is either showing responsibility and not immediately trying to get the high back, or getting yourself calmed down enough from the horror.  Though he doesn't explicitly state it (or even implicitly, at that), I'm guessing the grounding meditation above could help.  The last stage seems to be some form of Revelation, some hidden Truth that is revealed after the experience of Pleasure.  I think he's got the right idea, but I don't really agree that it will automatically bubble up to the surface.  I'd actually go the Crowley route, write down what happened, and then try to be objective about what happened, and what you learned.  But I guess that's just me.


So, that's First Gear.  Second Gear Mechanical Problems come tomorrow.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 13, 2009, 05:56:13 pm
"Emotional Intelligence moves Second Gear in ways that are often irrational, unpredictable and cathartic because its primary intent is expression and release. Emotions are not meant to be figured out. Gear Two disorientation can result from having ideas about our feelings that stop us from feeling them. On the whole, concepts don't really belong in Second Gear because when emotions are rationalized, they are repressed."  In a word, YARGANARGANARG.  From someone who spends a lot of time in Third Gear, this is important to remember.  When you are emotional, or you're dealing with someone else who is, then you're not going to have a lot of "thought".  All you want to do is EXPRESS. 

So, Confusion Alert is when your idea of reality doesn't jibe with actual reality.  How does that express itself in C2?  "Synchronizing ideas to emotional realities means accepting them on their own terms… If they are judged or criticized just because they are not understood, it's time to call a Confusion Alert. The first adjustment is learning No Judgment in relation to emotions."
I don't know if that fits, exactly, but it's a good thing to keep in mind, nonetheless.  I'm pretty sure he doesn't mean becoming a slave to your emotions, or calling your emotions a deeper truth like some people do… It reminds me of a quote from the movie High Fidelity: "I've been thinking with my gut for fifteen years, and I've come to the conclusion that my guts have shit for brains."  Expressing your emotions means you're processing them, allowing them to happen, and not being controlled by them.

"Another source of ideas which confuse our emotions are those self-images inhibiting and denying our personal freedom. This kind of self-denial keeps us emotionally immobilized until we breakthrough by coming out and being ourselves more."  Unfortunately, he doesn't really say where these inhibiting self-images come from, or what he actually means by personal freedom.  At first glance, I would say that many of these self-images stem from the Fourth Gear: Social norms, peer-group pressures, standards for employment.  Is there a way to overcome these self-images?  He doesn't say, he just encourages you to express yourself. 

"PRETTY VACANT: Leaving our emotions unclaimed is accepting invitations for a collision course with The Cosmic Wimp-Out. Gear Two is pushed by our convictions. Without strong feelings about what we believe in, we are but rudderless boats… and unable to take charge by initiating direction. When Second Gear is Pretty Vacant, an emotional inertia develops... all the unexpressed love, fear and rage gradually devolve into the slimy sludge of emotional mush."

So, while if you leave C1 vacant, familial programs creep in, but if you leave C2 vacant, you apparently are left in an emotional morass, and are unable to express your emotions.  This can come in two ways: You either decide everything is pointless, or you decide everything has more of a point than anyone could ever conceive.

So, this seems to smack the Absurdist viewpoint in the face.  He says, "Pointlessness is that particular emotional bias claiming an 'indifference' to life-in-general because: 1) It's all the same, anyway 2) Life is a joke at best 3) Entropy will get us in the end, so why bother? 4) Or any other existential treatise emphasizing the meaningless."  Now, for some of us this might raise some hackles.  But let's imagine someone thought that life was only pointless.  You know who I'm talking about… the Nihilists.  Rather than seeing the absurdity and embracing it, they give up in the face of it.  Imagine if you had no emotional strength, and someone showed you the Horrible Truth… What would you do?  You might very well surrender, say "fuck it", and go listen to Linkin Park.

The other direction is "that every moment is fraught with cosmic significance. This starts the other path... As you have probably already noticed, Life possesses a very slippery and wiggly characteristic in that it keeps on changing, growing and evolving. When we get caught… it becomes more difficult to remain in the present due to our attachment to the depth and intense significance of a particular moment."  In this instance, it seems that a lack of emotional conviction can make any moment the absolutely most important thing that has ever happened, ever.  And in a move that seems to justify the idea that a path between the two extremes might be the way to go (and also an oblique trip into Horrormirth), "things can only remain so serious up to a point, wherein… it turns silly. Hence... if something is True, then it is also Funny."

So, what he's saying is that both the Emo Nihilist and the Psycho Drama Queen stem from the same problem.  "Without an emotional bias, it becomes a struggle to stand ones own ground amidst other contradictory convictions and beliefs."  Appropriately enough, the odd agreement between Order and Disorder can be applied here: "Take away all limitations, boundaries and pressure… and you eliminate the need for freedom by replacing it with the need for First Grade shelter."  That is to say, if you don't have a strong set of emotions, or you're afraid to express them to assert your emotional territory, you're going to retreat and look for safety.  You can't ignore or abandon your emotional responses. 
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on October 13, 2009, 06:19:14 pm
Which, and I think you'll agree, has been a HUGE problem of mine. Maybe my biggest problem: setting boundaries, and avoiding both kinds of cosmic wimp out. Second circuit is "ego strength" and power, and having the canoots to stand up for yourself among other things.

So, that page on the Cosmic wimp out was probably the other most important part of AT for me.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 13, 2009, 06:27:19 pm
<i>Unfortunately, he doesn't really say where these inhibiting self-images come from, or what he actually means by personal freedom.</i>

I think, to some extent this isn't just fourth gear... Second gear has a lot of self-image in it as well.  http://www.lycaeum.org/beausoleil/8/6.html

The Hostile Strength / Hostile Weakness vs Friendly Strength / Friendly Weakness also seem to be self-images which can inhibit. If you think you're Top Dog, or if you think you're Bottom Dog, you're self-image will probably be modified accordingly.

Awesome work LMNO!
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 13, 2009, 06:34:18 pm
Well, the images have to come from somewhere.  Since the Dog thing only occurs when interacting with other people, and AT seems Only introduce that in Fourth Gear, then while the images of self can be generated by the Second gear, the idea needs to start in Fourth.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on October 13, 2009, 06:39:01 pm
The dog thing is second gear layered atop first, imprinting-wise, in Wilson's version (and probably Leary's).
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 13, 2009, 06:41:11 pm
Which, and I think you'll agree, has been a HUGE problem of mine. Maybe my biggest problem: setting boundaries, and avoiding both kinds of cosmic wimp out. Second circuit is "ego strength" and power, and having the canoots to stand up for yourself among other things.

So, that page on the Cosmic wimp out was probably the other most important part of AT for me.

Yeah, I recognized what you were saying earlier about that.  There's a discipline needed, to stand up for your emotions, but not to the extent that you attack other people with them.  An equilibrium of comfort. "I am safe, and I am here."
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 13, 2009, 06:46:30 pm
Well, the images have to come from somewhere.  Since the Dog thing only occurs when interacting with other people, and AT seems Only introduce that in Fourth Gear, then while the images of self can be generated by the Second gear, the idea needs to start in Fourth.

It's an unclear variant in AA's book and honestly I think I grokked his book because I had just finished PR and Info Psychology.

In Leary and RAW's model (which is what AA uses) the imprints happen in first and second circuit very early on, while imprints in third and fourth happen later.

First circuit imprints get tied strongly to how 'safe' you feel as an infant... if you cry and get fed/cuddled/loved, then you imprint "The world is safe and fun to explore", if you cry and get ignored, maybe you imprint "The world is lonely and scary!"

Second circuit (according to the model) gets its first imprint as you start to figure out hierarchy within the family. Leary tied it with the Terrible Twos, as a new human is struggling to figure out who's in charge, who's top dog and who's bottom dog.

Third gets imprinted as language and communication start and fourth starts when you begin interacting in society at large... Generally, Leary and Wilson seemed to think that your first three imprints would heavily impact how your fourth circuit imprinted.

AA does a great job with his exploration of the model, but a lot of bits seem to fall through the cracks... I hadn't noticed this before your review as much, since I guess my brain filled in the gaps with PR and IP stuff.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 13, 2009, 06:54:11 pm
But with the RAW/TL version, how could any two-year-old develop a Top Dog imprint when dealing with their parents?

99.99% of the time*, the two-year-old loses.  The RAW model doesn't seem to address this.  Additionally, it really seems that the AT model doesn't rely so heavily on the Imprinting theory, and it's beginning to seem to me that the model is much less linear than some of the models allow for.











*I leave a .01% chance open to the fact that at least one parent may actually become subserviant to an infant.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 13, 2009, 07:03:26 pm
Another thing I've noticed that while he does his best to describe how the gears can break down, he doesn't do much in the way of offering solutions.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on October 13, 2009, 07:12:19 pm
*I leave a .01% chance open to the fact that at least one parent may actually become subserviant to an infant.

I think it happens a lot more often than that. Two year olds are very demanding, and in some circumstances it makes more sense to give in. A parent who tries to give into whatever demands might lead to a top-dog child, but the other bit is that there's a variance. It doesn't mesh with imprinting in the normal sense -- it's more like one is more succeptable to changing one's place at earlier ages than at later ones. It's not JUST the parents either -- siblings would factor in here, and playmates.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 13, 2009, 07:13:12 pm
But with the RAW/TL version, how could any two-year-old develop a Top Dog imprint when dealing with their parents?

99.99% of the time*, the two-year-old loses.  The RAW model doesn't seem to address this.  Additionally, it really seems that the AT model doesn't rely so heavily on the Imprinting theory, and it's beginning to seem to me that the model is much less linear than some of the models allow for.



*I leave a .01% chance open to the fact that at least one parent may actually become subserviant to an infant.

Well, PR covers that somewhat. First, there's siblings which you gotta fight for dominance with, second it depends on how your parents interact with you... If they smack you around and yell then you're bottom dog... if they dote on you and spoil you, you're top dog... if they're smart and treat you like a human, then you'll hopefully end up with a 'positive imprint'... One of the things that Wilson stresses is that a healthy circuit can flow from one extreme to the other, as opposed to being stuck in one corner.

I'm gonna go dig through PR and see if I can clip a few relevant bits.

In the book AA doesn't talk much about 'imprinting' but I think he generally follows the same concept... He's more concerned with focusing on introspection and  modification of the Gears you have... whereas PR talks a lot more about how the circuits get that way in the first place.

Hrmmmm, not sure it that made sense...
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 13, 2009, 07:31:25 pm
 
Quote
...the mutation from neonate to "toddler," which involves first of all standing erect. Walking, mastering gravity, overcoming physical obstacles and learning to manipulate others politically are the vulnerable points at which imprinting and heavy conditioning occur. The muscles that perform these power functions are quickly programmed with what become chronic, life-long reflexes.

Depending as always the accidents of the environment— what happens at points of neurological vulnerability—this circuit will organize itself into a strong, dominating role in the pack (or family) or a weak, submissive role. Without going into the jungles with the ethologists, one can observe this mammalian imprinting process in any litter of puppies. It is very quickly determined who is TOP DOG and who is BOTTOM DOG.

Status in the pack or tribe is assigned on the basis of pre-verbal signaling system (kinesics) in which these muscle reflexes are crucial. All of the emotional games or cons listed in the popular psychological game-manuals of Dr. Eric Berne and the Transactional Analysts are second-circuit imprints, or standard mammalian politics.

Quote
The standard "authority" reflex on the emotional-territorial circuit is to swell the muscles and howl. You will find this
among birds as well as mammals, and in the Board meeting of your local bank. The standard "submission" reflex is to shrink the muscles, lower the head, and "crawl away." You will find this among dogs, primates, fowl and employees who wish to keep their jobs everywhere.

If the first (bio-survival) circuit is chiefly imprinted by the mother, the second (emotional-territorial) circuit is chiefly imprinted by the father—the nearest alpha male.

Quote
In pre-ethological terms, the emotional-territorial circuit is what we usually call "ego." Ego is simply the mammalian recognition of one's status in the pack; it is a "role" as sociologists say, a single brain circuit which mistakes itself for the whole Self, the entire brain-mind apparatus. The "egotist" behaves like "a two year old," in the common saying, because Ego is the imprint of the toddling and toilet-training stage.

Some quotes I found helpful in grokking the RAW/Leary view... which I think AA ascribes to as well... just doesn't focus as much on in this book.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 13, 2009, 07:53:49 pm
Without much warning, A.A. circles back to once again bring up Parental Programs.  I guess when he mentioned that First Gear has a tendency to adopt learned programs, he meant to apply it to all the gears.  So, let's learn how to deal with our parents on an emotional level.  Or at least identify more ways that they can fuck us up.

"Parental programs around emotions manifest as three basic orientations, each breeding a distinct emotional style: 1) Attack 2) Repression and 3) Open."  Attack is when you have to constantly prove your love, and the level of proof keeps escalating, forcing you to go to further extremes.  "When family members grow so dose to each other emotionally that communication halts, then greater displays of emotion are required."  The typical reaction to this is to either accept it and smother future partners, or reject it and avoid emotional displays entirely, out of fear of the escalation.

Repression is when the familial love is taken for granted.  "Instead of direct emotional displays to prove family love, the fulfillment of virtues and laws defined by the Mother and Father become the criteria for acceptance. A repressed orientation tends to breed a detached manner of expressing oneself... Also, there may be an emphasis on self-love and gaining recognition through overt status. The direct expression of emotional closeness may have to sublimate through artistic, symbolic and/or humanitarian ideals and activities." 

Open, surprisingly, is not any more of an ideal situation than the first two.  It's that kind of attitude a lot of hippies and bohemians took, letting the kids 'express themselves.' "This particular approach tends to neutralize the roles of Mother and Father as being 'law-makers' in exchange for a kind of democratic anarchy where all members are equal from the start."  It's an interesting game to play to try and defend one of these programs over the others, and then think about what kind of environment you were raised in.  Of course, these aren't exclusive, and any combination of the three can be expressed (for example, I tend to think my childhood was in a Repressed/Open environment).

We'll wrap up the Pretty Vacant Gear Two with A.A.'s version of The Mask.  "Hysterical Passivity - Emotional laziness expresses itself as a lack of "response-ability" to living. This is the passive mask so prevalent amidst the Pretty Vacant. Once the laziness crystallizes, the mask gets stuck on and the emotions grow hysterical beneath the passivity. This is especially common with highly "reasonable and rational" types of people, who, grace permitting, are ever so often subject to complete irrational outbursts. Until those among us can become reasonable enough to be emotional, we will have to continue these periodical bouts of insanity."

Of course, while this is all informative, there isn't much advice as to how to change or even address these new insights into our psyche.  "Standing up for yourself" is easy enough to say, but it would help to have strategies on how to deal with these self-defeating images, and crippling family upbringings.  I only ask because this section is about "mechanics", and I would presume that a manual that identifies problems would also offer solutions.

We move on to Second Gear Broken Record tomorrow.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on October 13, 2009, 08:23:50 pm
Well, the images have to come from somewhere.  Since the Dog thing only occurs when interacting with other people, and AT seems Only introduce that in Fourth Gear, then while the images of self can be generated by the Second gear, the idea needs to start in Fourth.

I think second gear is about power and hierarchy rather than about social collaboration and communication.

Also, in the same way that Thich Nhat Hanh would say that each segment of the eightfold path is in all the others, so is each circuit in the others as well. Isolating them is only for understanding of a part, and what is understood is then integrated into the whole. Recursion, yo.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 13, 2009, 08:32:32 pm
Well, the images have to come from somewhere.  Since the Dog thing only occurs when interacting with other people, and AT seems Only introduce that in Fourth Gear, then while the images of self can be generated by the Second gear, the idea needs to start in Fourth.

I think second gear is about power and hierarchy rather than about social collaboration and communication.

Also, in the same way that Thich Nhat Hanh would say that each segment of the eightfold path is in all the others, so is each circuit in the others as well. Isolating them is only for understanding of a part, and what is understood is then integrated into the whole. Recursion, yo.

That was beautifully stated Kai :)
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 13, 2009, 08:33:00 pm
I was going to respond differently, but then I re-read this:

http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=21767.msg759559#msg759559

It's the introduction to Second Gear a few pages back.  I think it addresses my concerns upon a second reading.  I'm being to 'gotcha' right now, I need to take my own advice and just let him say what he's saying.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on October 13, 2009, 08:35:58 pm
Which, and I think you'll agree, has been a HUGE problem of mine. Maybe my biggest problem: setting boundaries, and avoiding both kinds of cosmic wimp out. Second circuit is "ego strength" and power, and having the canoots to stand up for yourself among other things.

So, that page on the Cosmic wimp out was probably the other most important part of AT for me.

Yeah, I recognized what you were saying earlier about that.  There's a discipline needed, to stand up for your emotions, but not to the extent that you attack other people with them.  An equilibrium of comfort. "I am safe, and I am here."

Which is why, incidentally, it is okay for me to charge out into the commons room and talk sternly in a loud voice to my flatmates when they get loud with company at two in the morning, and NOT feel bad about it later. Thats me saying, "I'm here, and you overstepped my boundaries in a rude way so back off".

Of course, my flatmates haven't talked to me since, while I don't hold any animosity about what happened. Some people hold grudges, which to me shows a pretty weak 2nd circuit.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 13, 2009, 08:38:01 pm
Well, you probably should talk to them again.  Since they don't know the Gear Game, they can't be expected to know you're not going to act like every other monkey.  They probably think you permanently hate them now, and may be surprised to know that you don't.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on October 13, 2009, 08:48:23 pm
Probably.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Triple Zero on October 13, 2009, 11:02:56 pm
*I leave a .01% chance open to the fact that at least one parent may actually become subserviant to an infant.

I think it happens a lot more often than that. Two year olds are very demanding, and in some circumstances it makes more sense to give in.

Yeah, I was immediately thinking of the "little emperor" kids in China's one-child policy (they still have that, btw?)

But it's not a real well-developed type of alpha dog program, more like a spoiled brat program, which usually just has one way to exert its dominance, by throwing a tantrum. Which really only works with people that got an underdog imprint in the same situation.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on October 14, 2009, 06:33:13 am
*I leave a .01% chance open to the fact that at least one parent may actually become subserviant to an infant.

I think it happens a lot more often than that. Two year olds are very demanding, and in some circumstances it makes more sense to give in.

Yeah, I was immediately thinking of the "little emperor" kids in China's one-child policy (they still have that, btw?)

But it's not a real well-developed type of alpha dog program, more like a spoiled brat program, which usually just has one way to exert its dominance, by throwing a tantrum. Which really only works with people that got an underdog imprint in the same situation.

I read somewhere recently that they're abandoning it, but I can't find my source.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rumckle on October 15, 2009, 01:57:56 am
I seem to remember hearing something along those lines, too.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 16, 2009, 08:11:49 pm
"Our emotions go on Broken Record where we make something so important it obscures our relationship to the whole."  Apparently, this is often the result of a trauma, but the obsession is often unrelated to what caused the trauma in the first place.  So, if your mom dies, striking a heavy emotional blow, you find refuge in Jesus, and become Born Again.  Essentially, like a bone spur or a broken elbow, when our emotional ego is so hurt, we over-compensate in an effort to get back to "normal", but the over-emphasis ends up dominating your personality.

"Being stuck in Second Gear also happens when we over-emphasize the importance of our emotions. This kind of immobility tends to occur when we expect others to take our emotions as seriously as we do ourselves and they don't…. In a collective situation, the most emotional person dominates everybody else. In order to survive emotionally, others must react to the dominant person or be dominated or… leave the room, physically or emotionally."  Back to the drama queens, the howling monkeys, and the Teabagging Town Halls.  We've got to keep in mind that 2C isn't so much communication as it is expression.  If you're not careful, you'll wind up "expressing" yourself all in your pants.  What bugs me is that even though the best thing to do is walk away, that doesn't help all the people who don't understand what's going on.  They'll get sucked into the same escalating emotional shitstorm, and then we end up with… Congress.

A.A. gives us a possible solution to this… And, interestingly enough, it's laughter.  "Negative emotions only have the power we give them. They become negative by the sheer condensation of belief that makes something more important than anything else… Lighten Up and Laugh More Often."  Please note that we are taking screaming and turning it into laughter. 

"Too many unprocessed, unfelt emotions have a way of immobilizing our capacity for self-expression. This is especially true where the emotions we're absorbing are not our own." Basically, don't start matching emotions when interacting with people.  When you do, you're letting them invade your territory, and then you can't stand your ground.  But that doesn't mean that you should ignore their expressions.  You should be able to understand them without joining in.  "The secret to developing a sense of personal boundaries rests within our capacity to permit emotional differences. Emotional responses are unique to each person."

There's another took necessary to establishing your own borders.  "In order to live with people who respond differently than we do, a certain amount of solitude is necessary. If we are afraid of our essential aloneness, it's easier to define ourselves in terms of how other people feel, instead of how we feel."  It's way too easy to simply go along with the pack, and allow their emotions to become yours.  Slight tie-ins here to mass psychology and the madness of crowds: If a large group of people start sharing and adopting everyone else's emotions, and the loudest monkey has the floor, then things just escalate on their own. "The more we find out where we are at emotionally, the better well be able to read other people's emotions without becoming them. When we are feeling ourselves, there is less need to project our emotions onto others, i.e., feeling their emotions because we're unwilling to feel our own."

He holds forth on the subject of winning and losing, and I have to say I didn't agree at first.  But I think I'm coming around. "Both winning and losing are highly charged emotional polarities and opposite sides of the same game. In order to transcend the Game of Loss and Gain, it's crucial to understand how winning and losing are both appropriate and when they're not depending upon their context."  That last line is what sold me: He doesn't want you to abandon the win/loss game; he just wants you to think about when it may or may not be appropriate.  Too many times some collaboration or another goes down in flames because someone decided they wanted to "win", even though there was no competition involved.  They were stuck on the 2C thrill of "winning", which crashed the whole program. 

At the same time, being stuck in the "win/lose" game can give us an obsession of "winning" and a fear of "losing", even though the scientific method tells us that the it's the act of re-evaluating our theories after observation that gets us to the truth: That is, if we give ourselves permission to fail, we can learn a hell of a lot more that if we try to force the win. "Freedom turns to frustration when it's defined as Always Getting Your Own Way."  Simply put, if you obsess on winning, and nothing but, you'll turn into a real asshole who will never learn anything.

He finishes this section off with what I think are pretty weak suggestions on how to tell if your second gear is fucked.  I will now attempt to rephrase them so they don't sound as foppish:

1) Make Subjective vs Objective checks regarding your Second Gear.  Sometimes problems arise when your inner script doesn't match what's going on around you.

2) Try to catch yourself when you ignore other people's egos so you can impose your own.  You may be acting like a complete asshole. Sometimes that's ok, but you should be choosing to act that way, instead of stumbling into it.

3) If you've chosen your friends correctly, listen to them.  They may be telling you truths about you that you're refusing to hear.

4) The size of your Ego is the size of your Territory.  Remember what happens to nations whose borders grow larger than their ability to sustain.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Cain on October 16, 2009, 09:01:44 pm
They end up becoming hegemons and dominate the international system.

MY EGO IS A GREAT POWER!
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 19, 2009, 03:57:43 pm
They end up becoming hegemons and dominate the international system.

MY EGO IS A GREAT POWER!

I never got that hegemons thing... do the hegemons live in the little red and white balls that the players throw, or do they just hang out in there before the fighting or what?

Egochoo! I Choose You!
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 20, 2009, 08:10:56 pm
So, when we talk about "Short Circuit" in the Second Gear, we're talking about what happens to you when the 6th Gear opens up, apparently.  But what he seems to be getting at isn't so much the usual RAW C6 idea (though we do get there, eventually), but the realization that your mental and emotional territories are relative.  A.A. goes into a short, blunt explanation of this relativity (mostly thinker/prover stuff), and at first seems like pure moral relativism. But then you start to see that, when speaking only of 2C, it is.  Divorced of semantic or rational intelligence, or morals, whatever bias 2C has is True, at least to the Second Gear.  It's why some people say, "I understand that all A's are not B, but I still feel B every time I see an A."  All the screaming mad people you see on the news will never be changed to a new perspective through evidence, because their emotions are the only thing that KNOWS 100% TRUTH.

So, the first impulse would be to reject an emotional bias in favor of relativity, right?  Apparently not.  "One of the misconceptions common to individuals presently entering Sixth Grade (hereafter called "Baby Psychics") is the apparent need to deify the "transpersonal" while condemning and trying to do away with their emotional, opinionated self. This naive, yet well-intended, attempt at annihilating the ego in order to achieve "enlightenment" only crystallizes a more repressed and dogmatic bias than before."  The goal isn't to reject your emotions, it's to accept them, while understanding that they are indeed relative.  We have to become personally strong, so we don't lose ourselves when we drop into the ocean of "All is One".  If you know who you are and where you are, then you won't be so afraid to let go and explore other territories… and then you can start to decide if you want to incorporate some of those other territories into your own.  In case you didn't catch it, we're talking about Metaprogramming, or re-writing your map.

So, how do you strengthen 2C? "The Performing Arts, notably Theatre and Dance, provide a provocative arena to challenge the soul's development, expression and need for discipline… We learn to stay true to the particular bias, or integrity, of an action, character, dance or ritual until we're comfortable enough with it to project the illusion of our authority... The professional performer knows it is an illusion and thereby, is able to leave the stage after performing to return to his/her own bias."  Again, it's only by having a clear view of our own bias that we can explore others'.  "If our bias has become so repressed as to be almost completely unknown to us, perhaps we can discover it by the way we project it onto those outer authority figures spouting spiritual dogmas reflective of our inner immobility."  

Which leads us to a really great line, "The truth will set you free but first it may make you miserable."

I think we should skip the part about "reading energies" and "psychic energy"… except to say that in order to overcome a 2C Short Circuit, we have to redefine both our mental (psychic) territory and our physical.  So, for every hour you spend in self analysis (or, fine, spiritual meditation and/or prayer and/or energy invocation and/or chanting to the goddess), go for a hike, or a bike ride, or lift some weights, or throw around a Frisbee or something.  

So, he goes off here on a rant about serotonin, endorphins, mental illness, and LSD.  I'm not a biologist, so I can't say for sure, but this sounds like it's running dangerously close to the "there's no such thing as clinical depression" party line, as well as the "Acid triggers a natural response" gambit.

Plus, he mentions the pineal gland.  'Nuff said.

One final quote though: "Relativistic consciousness can be emotionally immobilizing in that there are too many options and possibilities to feel strongly about any one of them. Psychics can be very low-key people in this way, unless emotional balance has been reset and their passions renewed." I think we all know at least one person like this in our lives.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 20, 2009, 08:26:25 pm
Again, fantastic commentary LMNO. You're really catching a lot of the bits I found amazing, and poking the bits I felt were probably fluff or newagespeak.

 :fnord:
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 21, 2009, 04:15:37 pm
Ok, let's move on to the Third Gear, and what happens during Confusion Alert.  "Conceptual Confusion shows up when our ideas about ideas, thoughts & concepts fail to coincide with their true symbolic nature and purpose… One example is when we are identified with our thoughts and are unable to discriminate who we are from what we know."  Or, to use a phrase that Roger loves so much, "eating the menu".

"…It is never really possible to report more truth than we can experience through our Central Nervous System and our interpretation of same. However, if we are aware of our conceptual limitations, we may begin to understand its shape and propensity towards language… Interpretive skill depends on becoming familiar with our own filters, so we may learn to tune into those of others."  Black Iron Prison, anyone?  Our filters limit our perceptions, but if we understand the limitations of our filters, we can learn how to build different kinds of them.  "Think of concepts (and for that matter language) as a code. Codes need to be deciphered before releasing their goods."  Essentially, the things we talk about are not the things themselves, and language is not robust enough to be anything but an approximation of the thing itself.

I think we're all pretty clear on this point, so we'll move on to Pretty Vacant.  "To the degree intellect remains unclaimed, we will look to others for our conceptual maps to navigate our lives. This kind of mental inertia stems from an inability to think for ourselves and come to our own conclusions."  Yeah, we're pretty much up to speed on this one, two.  If you're too lazy to use your brain, you give it away to whoever wants it.

If you think someone else has control of your brain, A.A. offers a good trick.  Even if you think your brain is your own, this is a fairly relaxing exercise. "One method of organizing your concepts is by recalling everything that happened during the day, right before going to sleep at night. Verbally, express the events from the time you first woke up that day. Speak through them, one by one, until you remember each one. As you follow through in this, notice which events demand your attention the most and come back to them when you're finished going through them all. Then, return to those events requiring more thought from yourself so that you might be able to understand and digest it easier. Leisurely, spend your last lingering moments processing these events so when it's time to sleep, you can let go knowing your dreams will take care of whatever you could not. The important thing here is to take the time to organize your thoughts about those events requiring your attention. This will get you into the habit of having a say and developing a point of view about your own life."

Though he gets kind of Freudian at this point, there is a strong underlying message: Unless you are confident in yourself as a physical presence (C1 and C2), it is hard to come to your own conclusions and draw your own maps.  I don't mean you have to be an Alpha Male ass-kicking douchebag, I mean that if you consider yourself a Lesser Human, or Not Good Enough as a person, then your ability to Think For Yourself will be greatly weakened.  This is how some people can be very very smart and incredibly book-read, but they still can't come to their own conclusions, and are still led around by other people's ideas, instead of their own.  So, our instructions on how to be a biped at this point are: I am Safe, I am Here, and I am Thinking.

"When Conceptual Intelligence over-emphasizes, we become priests and clergy in the Church of Reason." Basically, he's talking about Information Overload.  You're over-thinking it, you're getting bloated with symbols and what they "mean", to the detriment of the other gears… your territory has all but vanished, and you physical body is being neglected.  So how do you fix this Broken Record?  You simply need to get silly. "When one can no longer take any more information, things can get pretty silly and nonsensical, unless there's some way to make sense of it all. If there isn't, one is left confounded, perplexed and potentially disturbed until one sees the humor of it all."  We all need to be Pinealists, sometimes. 

Ok, so it kind of annoys me when he goes off on these little tangents, like how the Fear of Going Crazy makes you actually crazy, and your Third Gear goes into Broken Record as a response to the Fear, and you have to have Faith that the Craziness will go away eventually, but Faith runs contrary to 3C, and what the fuck is he talking about and why is he conflating information overload with actual mental disorders, or at least treating "crazy" as some sort of general state of confusion rather than an actual mental disorder and what the hell does any of this have to do with this chapter anyway?

Anyway… With the Short Circuit, A.A. now begins to match up C7 with C3… Remember that a Short Circuit is what happens when an unstable lower gear gets overloaded to the point of breaking with information from a higher matching gear.  The only problem I have is that the very existence of C6-C8 is iffy for me.  I'm 70% ok with C6, but after that, it drops sharply.  Of course, some people might say that this is because I haven't experienced it yet, and someone who has not experienced the full-body rapture of C5 probably doesn't believe it exists, either.  Fair enough.  Imma gonna let A.A. finish, and then we'll see who has the best model of consciousness of all time.  Of. All. Time.

So, C7 is connected to Jung's 'Collective Unconscious', past lives, and all that 'We Are All One' junk.  So, when we are opened to the so-called "Vast Mythic Consciousness", our Intellect shorts out.  Cuz of all the vastness.  Anyway, if you find yourself in this position, it's up to you to stretch your personal intellect to include Universal Truths.  "To the degree our concepts (of the world & ourselves) are obliterated by the impact of universal truths, we are obliged to adjust our thinking to include their reality, if only to put our minds at peace."

Another way to overcome your intellect being stunned into immobility "…can be found in the practice of Silent Witness…. people go crazy or go sane depending upon how ready they are to include themselves. If the intellect is going to include itself, it will have to surrender its tendency to Figure Things Out until it knows more. We can do this by referring to another function of the intellect, namely, its capacity for just paying attention or portraying the Silent Witness."  In other words, the gears got jammed because the symbolic pattern maker in your head just saw all the pebbles transform into one Big Fucking Rock, and doesn't know what to do.  So, put the pattern-making on hold for now, and just observe.  Soon enough, you'll be able to assimilate the knowledge of the BFR, and go back to the pebbles, while keeping the BFR in mind at the same time.

Ok, so… How do we form symbols while under the influence of Universal Myths?  By developing our own theories about Reality and "god"… That is to say, Guerilla Ontology.  Ah, RAW buzzwords.  How we love thee! Of course, A.A. goes a bit further, and introduces "Gorilla Ontology" as a counterpoint. "Gorilla Ontology are those theories of God generated and sustained by our so-called civilized masses. They include the Fundamentalist, Creationist and any other "ist" ideologies most popular with the majority and involve various methods of social control, primitive wish fulfillment and herd instinct strategies. Guerrilla Ontology are those methods by which innovative individuals manage to bypass the influence of the previously mentioned Monkey Business."  See, I can get with that.  I don't need Mythic Universal Consciousness to get there, either. 

"Whosoever understands the metaphor also controls the mind. Metaphors are symbols, emblems and buzzwords which trigger a chain reaction of associations in our minds. Depending upon the symbol or buzzword, an entire language can be accessed and set in motion."  See, I wish he would spend more time on this kind of stuff, and less on…  well, this: "…every culture has produced exceptional individuals capable of entering the Mythic Realm with the purpose of returning to humanity and sharing their impact through various "powers" of healing, seeing and teaching . . . these are the 'shamans'."  You know what I mean?  He has an idea that I consider more broad that just ways to interpret the mystical experience.  So, when he says, "During those times when we are still recovering from the shock of Mythic Intelligence…we are controlled by the ideology of those who have Been There before us and have found ways to think, write and talk about the experience. These are our Influences and they sometimes determine the style by which we start designing our own Mythic concepts, or Ontology. In order to ground the short-circuited conceptual mind, we [should] begin by scripting our own myths... It is time for us to start scripting, casting, directing and starring in the epic of our choice…" he could just as easily be talking about entire functions of society, not just our personal myths and understanding of Mystic Truths, whatever they might be.

What’s that you say?  You haven't had a meditation exercise in several pages?  Well, you're in luck!  We just happen to have one right here, designed to help you understand how your thoughts may or may not be connected (hint: they’re not).  Once again, I will attempt to rephrase his new-age-y spiel into a language that's a bit more pragmatic.

So, start with the grounding exercise from a few pages back: Sit up straight, oxygenate the blood, and pay attention to your body.  Now, instead of the traditional Buddhist "no mind" meditations that tell you to STOP THINKING, try to get into a stream-of-consciousness thing.  Don't force your thoughts, just pay attention to them.

Then, and this is the weird part (apologies), try to see what happens when one thought leaves, and another thought shows up.  Try to pay attention to what happens between thoughts.  This can get unsettling, as you may find that your thoughts seem to be completely fragmented, and not a cohesive unit at all.  If you choose, you can call that space between thoughts as Chaos—that Chaos we keep referring to, the one that the illusions of Order and Disorder arise from. 

The point being, we can say that our languages are merely symbols and metaphors that we invent and then impose on the Universe, but in this way we can actually experience it.

Moving into Fourth Gear next.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 21, 2009, 04:58:25 pm
Quick question LMNO, are you doing the exercises listed? If so, I'd love some commentary on that as well :)
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 21, 2009, 07:35:40 pm
I have been, or I used to do (crusty old man).


I'm not giving insight, due to the subjectivity involved.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 21, 2009, 07:59:57 pm
I have been, or I used to do (crusty old man).


I'm not giving insight, due to the subjectivity involved.

Oh sure, I'm not expecting "It Worked" :fnord: more along the lines of "I found this useful" or "this exercise didn't seem to do much for me" kind of stuff :)
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 21, 2009, 08:21:49 pm
As of this point, I've done the exercises in one form or another, and I've tried to synthesize the experiences objectively.


A.A. tends to go a little hard on the Mystical Knowledge trip, so I'm tending towards the Pragmatic at the moment.  Makes me sound clinical, but if this were a Cold Logic/Mechanical Therapy tome, I would probably way purple about the amazing brain states I reached.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 21, 2009, 08:24:02 pm
As of this point, I've done the exercises in one form or another, and I've tried to synthesize the experiences objectively.


A.A. tends to go a little hard on the Mystical Knowledge trip, so I'm tending towards the Pragmatic at the moment.  Makes me sound clinical, but if this were a Cold Logic/Mechanical Therapy tome, I would probably way purple about the amazing brain states I reached.



 :lulz: :lulz:
makes sense
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bu🤠ns on October 22, 2009, 02:21:09 am
I'm finding the pragmatic trip quite helpful, fwiw.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 22, 2009, 03:41:28 am
It's interestng in a way-- he talks about mapping your own interpretation on top of your experiences, and then he goes and imposes his own trip on what should be as objective as possible.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on October 22, 2009, 04:46:28 am
It's interestng in a way-- he talks about mapping your own interpretation on top of your experiences, and then he goes and imposes his own trip on what should be as objective as possible.

Disclaimer: just because he's bright doesn't mean he's not a monkey.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bu🤠ns on October 22, 2009, 05:12:38 am
It's interestng in a way-- he talks about mapping your own interpretation on top of your experiences, and then he goes and imposes his own trip on what should be as objective as possible.

Disclaimer: just because he's bright doesn't mean he's not a monkey.

 :D  I wonder to what degree he buys (bought) into his own ideas.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on October 22, 2009, 03:53:02 pm
A trip is imposed; I'm not sure it's HIS.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 22, 2009, 04:03:04 pm
A trip is imposed; I'm not sure it's HIS.

Um, why not?  He wrote it, after all.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 26, 2009, 06:53:08 pm
"When our social survival is confused, it stems from misplaced ideas about our social life: interaction with ourself, friends, others, groups and 'society en masse.' A popular method of our social confusion comes with neglecting to update our self-image to coincide with our chronological and internal growth... Perhaps one of the more devastating demonstrations of personal disorientation can be revealed in The Once Famous Person. Here is a person who came into vast public recognition for being a certain persona and who believed themself to be this persona, even after fame withered. Then, the inflated ego of The Once Famous Person must suffer its loss by facing reality or continue living in a dream with those willing to go along with it. The common element of all social confusion of this kind is the inability to live in the present and maintain present-time interactions with others... unless those others agree to live in the same Time Warp as the disoriented."

See, that sounds right.  It also perfectly describes those people in High School who never got over who they used to be: The Football Hero, the Bully, the Beauty Queen… People who got "stuck" in an early social role, and never learned how to keep up with the world changing around them.

"Identification with ones persona or public image invariably freezes the features of the face, as well as instilling a certain thickness to its overall texture. Thick faces don't take as well to animation and spontaneous expression as sensitive faces do."  Wait, what?

"The sensitive persona also is capable of portraying multiple roles without necessarily identifying completely with any of them. With this kind of self-image, there is a certain chameleon-like quality... of wending with and bending to whatever the environment asks."  Ok, that's more like it.  It speaks directly to the "chaos surfing" catchphrase that some of us like to use.  It's also a reflection of the ability to see and choose different filters, or maps.  If you can get along with the Chess Club and the Metalheads at the same time, chances are, you're doing it right.

"One purpose to personal growth is in discovering the freedom to change our self-image and public image in accordance with the changes the rest of our life is going through...If this kind of personal flexibility is not feasible, you must change communities and live somewhere else."  This is an interesting point that he underscores a few different ways.  "One side-effect of personal development is severing relations with other persons who have not gotten around to letting us go through our changes. Changing ones mind about oneself is difficult enough but when you ask others to change their minds about you, it is then you find out who your real friends are. People get used to thinking about each other in certain ways and grow attached to certain ways of relating. If someone cannot handle the personality change you are going through because you are updating your self-image, then it is their problem unless you make it yours, as well. If people create friendship on the basis of personality alone, then when personalities transform, the relationship requires some adjustment or it dissolves."  This, on the face of it, sounds pretty harsh, but it happens all the time.  Humans want their relationships to remain consistent, and defined.  If the quarterback comes out as gay, or if the hippie becomes a banker, the majority of their friends will reject them, and they'll have to find new friends.  In fact most of the time, any personal change you make will affect your relationships with others.  If you want to keep your friends, you usually have to sit down and re-work the way your friendship behaves.  "Another source of social discord is when we outgrow our present social circles and neglect to withdraw and/or find new ones. Our circle of friends constitutes our Power Elite because this network affirms and supports the person we are or want to become. Once this circle stops doing this for us, it's time to take a few steps back and review our criteria for friendship based in our present-time feelings, responses and social realities. If we don't, it's possible well harm ourselves and others through subliminal resentments, hidden hostilities and other emotional signals announcing the need for more personal space than there is presently offered."

Hippie alert: "One impetus for changing social circles comes from loving yourself more than your friends can love themselves and/or you. You can only receive as much love, affection and/or acceptance as you've been able to give yourself. Any more becomes a Positive Threat. When you are loved more than you can love yourself, it's decidedly uncomfortable unless you surrender to a greater self-acceptance."  We might be able to find a different word for "love", if that makes you feel better… Still comes off like a Beatles song, but the truth is that if you don't like yourself very much, any positive comments someone gives you will sound like mockery; and if you're surrounded by people who don't like themselves, you'll just get bummed out.

"Terminally Independent people become the most socially confused when they forget the interactive nature of Social Intelligence. The same goes for Fatally Dependent people, as well, who cannot permit enough personal space to maintain an honest relationship."  As much as you'd like to be a free, independent soul, you're still part of a group, and you'd better recognize what that group is, and how you function within it; conversely, the group is not your identity, you can't just subsume yourself within the group.

So, we can see what happens when your social gear gets confused.  What about if it's not really there in the first place? "Of all the ways to become Pretty Vacant socially, perhaps the most poignant is becoming Faceless. In Fourth Grade, we find out for ourselves just where we stand with the process of collectivization. We are socially Pretty Vacant when we decide to repress and/or sacrifice our autonomy in exchange for collective membership. For some of us, this kind of pressure to conform to group standards is impossible. Others among us may welcome the pressure of conformity in that it gives us definition and the feeling of belonging to something greater than ourselves. However, during this phase of personal surrender, people often re-emerge as more homogenous, standardized and bland versions of themselves. They become Faceless. This also tends to happen whenever the Human Factor is down-played in favor of worshipping principles, knowledge, status, security, money, power, leaders and the rest of it. Socially, people are what we are here for. Until we realize this simple moral truth, we remain... Pretty Vacant."

That was a long quote, but it's spot on.  Now that we're dealing with social interactions, we can see these examples in front of us.  Also, because we're all on this website as so-called Free Thinkers, we seem to have been attuned to identifying these kind of people… Except when it might apply to us, of course.  I don't think I need to go into any examples of Gear 4 Vacancy; it's what almost every large social collective strives for, conformity and unanimity.

"For the Terminally Dull and Faceless, there's still hope. The Pretty Vacant can bring color to their personalities by Acting Out Of Character. This precarious act entails engaging in those activities contrary to the standards of acceptance set by the governing collective, whether it be family, friends, group or government factions. If Acting Out of Character excites a predictable guilt reaction, congratulations, you are in the grips of Social Control program… Respond to the guilt and the resentment you feel for being guilty based on someone else's judgment. Rage has been known to animate a few Faceless Phenomenas back to life again." In other words, Be Silly and use Roger Prime.

Of course, the other way to be Vacant socially is to see the social interactions of other people, reject them entirely within yourself, and then manipulate the hell out of them.  A.A. calls this "psychopathic," though some of us here might call it "fun".  "Rebellion, in its extreme, takes a different form of Social Idiocy in the conscience-free habits of the psychopath. A psychopath, defined here, is that person (or aspect of ourselves) who comprehends social moral codes but uses this knowledge to take advantage of people… without a sense of guilt, they find no reason to feel bad or be punished for violating the ethics of others. The ethics of a psychopath simply fail to include other people and so, these tendencies often create isolated, misogynist and misanthropic personalities."  Yeah, ok.  We have little tolerance for fools around here, and we often attempt (and often succeed) at manipulating those people we consider to be more Monkey than Man… And to be honest, a lot of the "social moral codes" he mentions are ultimately detrimental and oppressive, and those people who work to support and impose those codes should be fucked with, if you ask me.  But perhaps it's all a matter of degrees…

"Another way to become Pretty Vacant socially, is by judging the social side of people as too frivolous and shallow to take seriously."  In other words, those smug fuckers we were talking about a few days ago who make themselves sound so superior when they say they don't own a TV… The kind of people who reject the social side of our personalities as not Important, and turn their attention to some Great Work of Significance, abandoning all social support and community.  We monkeys are pack animals; we are social creatures by design.  To ignore this is not to be fully Human.

So, where do these codes come from? "Social bonding begins within the family and then, extends out to friends, groups and society en masse. If there is a lot of "karmic charge" around Mother, then, we work through our social karma with women until our relationship with Mom is more neutralized--" 

Oh, great.  More Freud.  Plus, a misuse of the word "karma".  Sigh.  Let's move on.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 26, 2009, 06:53:31 pm
"The "social victim" is one who is unable to find an identity outside a group context because he/she is caught up in needing acceptance and/or ejection from the group to be free."  This relates to the first version of the Vacant Faceless.  After you've figured out that you've been trapped in an oppressive social system, how do you get out?  "One way to bypass the need to be attached and/or banished from a collective is through a form of self discipline… an arduous yet rewarding process of defining a personal morality: a set of principles to live by based on the realization of your highest ideals... Adhering to this code, one becomes the best person one is capable of being. When this code is violated from within, you take responsibility for your own punishment… The less dependent you become on others' approval for your morality, the less you are influenced by their opinions, rejections and reactions. Whatever your morality, permit it to others as you love yourself. Lastly, by defining virtue in your own terms, proceed silently, lest you confuse your virtue for public justice and judge the human beings around you."  In other words, Think For Yourself, Schmuck, and Keep Your Fucking Mouth Shut.

"Fourth Gear spins out on Broken Record more from the fear of loneliness than perhaps, anything else… The Herd Instinct is nurtured by the fear of loneliness… A look at the pain, sorrow and longing of loneliness will let us feel a heart that has not yet been completely broken... a mind which has not yet been utterly disillusioned… Broken Hearts aren't much fun and Disillusioned Heads tend to ache, but between the both of them, there's a good chance of getting off Broken Record… With every heartbreak and disillusionment, we get a little closer to our "true selves" and the less we need to repeat our errors. Well discover the heart that doesn't break and the mind that sees through itself."  That's a nice thought, that our emotional pain can help us be better people.  We'll come back to that, I hope.  For now, let's talk about people who are stuck on 4th Gear, people who are "socially addicted."

"Some people require the context of a group mind to fulfill their destiny. Some need groups as a springboard for the manifestation of their own individual dreams, while others simply cannot motivate without a group behind them."  Essentially, they are not strong enough as individuals to set plans into action; they need the force of the group in order to get going.

"One way to release yourself from a group mind is through the willing participation of every other member to ceremonially grant acceptance (with no judgment) of your desire to leave." Yeah, like that's going to happen. "If this is not possible, then it is up to you to decipher and read the specific nature of your karmic debt to your group, as a whole and with individual members. Once understood, proceed to pay your debts as directly and simply as you can. The karmic code of the group mind consists of those excitements and resistances which bind you as a member to that group (to work them out)." Please ignore his mangling of the work Karma for right now… What he means here is that "Karma" is shorthand for "things you personally lack that you found in the group."

I think what he's trying to say is that if we lack Security, or have Ego problems, or awkward semantics, then we might end up in a group that provides us with strength where we are weak.  Which is fine, unless we cease to develop these strengths within ourselves, and let the group take care of everything; even worse if the group actively works at breaking down some aspects of our personalities, and inserts themselves in their place.  Towards this, he offers a handy "Cult Chart" for evaluating the group you are in.  This is long, but it's worth it.:

On a scale of 1-5, with 5 being an absolute yes and 1, absolute no, check off the underlying areas of evaluation.

1) AUTHORITY - degree by which the group and/or leaders) claim ultimate knowledge about the nature of reality.
2) POWER - degree by which group &/or leader(s) offer power & status as a result of joining the group as a member.
3) MONEY - degree by which your finances are involved to support your membership in this group and its leaders).
4) POLITICS - degree of internal hierarchy or distance between new members and leaders) pressures for attaining position.
5) INDOCTRINATION - degree by which members must follow the group's morality and ethical code over their own; also the degree of dogma and philosophical rigidity.
6) CENSORSHIP - degree of control leaders exercise over members' style of communicating; degree of inhibition towards outside ideas about the group, its dogmas and leaders.
7) FEAR - degree of concern over real or imagined enemies; also degree by which humor is forbidden in relation to group dogma, etc.

I will leave it to you all to see how your favorite groups stack up.  He doesn't offer any guidelines of how to interpret your evaluations, but I have the feeling that the higher the number, the more you are abandoning your personal self to the will of the Group.

Getting back to the Broken Record aspect, "One way of immobilizing social survival is spinning our wheels from the guilt of an overbearing conscience…We feel guilty in two ways: 1) Like a robot and 2) Like an animal- Robot guilt is a conditioned response felt after Doing Something Wrong. Animal guilt is an organic response sensed before Doing Something Wrong… Conditioned robot guilt is a reaction to a moral program accepted as a basis to tell Right from Wrong.  Animal guilt is the direct, intuitive knowledge that something is
"wrong" before it actually occurs."  Ok, I know this reeks of a priori knowledge, but it seems he may have something going here.  While it's hard to get your head around the latter, the former is pretty clear: Some AUTHORITY made a command about what was Right and what was Wrong, and demanded you obey.  "The trouble with robot guilt is that it changes into resentment because the organism simply detests having to feel guilt automatically. The resentment turns into an emotional kind of mush, immobilizing our capacity for direct response and obscuring our sensitivity to our natural radar."  Whether you call it Intuition, or whether it's more your developing consciousness making its own choices as to Morality (or Ethical Principles, or whatever you want to call it), sooner or later it's going to bump up against the External moral codes… and when that happens, all hell is gonna bust loose.

This latest installment has gotten fairly tl;dr, but hang on and take a deep breath, because Short Circuit is up next.  As been said before, this is when the gear is overloaded by its higher paired gear – in this case, C8, the "Quantum Non-Local" Circuit.  Yeah. I know.  "The nature of Eighth Grade Spiritual Intelligence is highly interactive, unpredictable and beyond conceptual comprehension... only a strong Personality could endure the intensity of its High Uncertainty Zones."  See what I mean? 

I'm going to skip around a bit and drop a few quotes I thing are useful.  There's no point in me arguing against some of his more… citation-less… statements. Except perhaps when I think a further clarification is desperately needed.

"Socially speaking, a Short Circuit emerges with a loss of personal integrity as a result of complete encompassment in the spiritual experience. This is akin to capsizing in a rowboat out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. With Third Gear Short Circuits, we responded to Mythic Intelligence by forming our own cosmology to maintain sanity in the face of a greater reality. From Fourth Gear, there is nothing we can hold onto, conceptually, because we are asked to participate in the transmutation of our personality. (At this point, we are not referring to the Weekend Workshop Variety of Self-Change but to transformation as a survival need.)"

Ok, fine.  But, then… "There comes a time in everyone's life when another kind of family emerges which is neither genetically related or people you've met before.. (hereafter referred to as your Circle of Humanity). Many times when our Social Survival is on Short Circuit, we meet certain individuals who show up almost as if by sheer coincidence to help us in our personal evolution. These people are social messengers from the No Coincidences Dept. arriving to provide solace, friendship and reassurance while we are engaged in a high state of social flux… The Circle of Humanity may have evolved over the centuries through reincarnations and each member of these circles may indeed be neurons in a vast Central Nervous System covering aeons of time and space."  Or, you know, the pattern maker in your brain is going haywire trying to sort through the Chaos it sees, and makes so-called "synchronous" connections to the people in your social circle.  Law of Fives, once again.  I'm going to have to stick with Occam's Razor on this one.

The point of this Circle, or of these Lo5 Connections (take your pick), is "learning to understand how we respond to the spiritual. Many of us will be unable and/or unwilling to integrate spiritual information on our own so, we turn to religion for solutions. Historically, religions and their churches have provided solace for the spiritually bereft. This, however, has not gone by without its price. By joining a religion, sect or church, we sacrifice a certain spiritual autonomy: our own personal response to the experience unhindered by the effect of outside authority. Those of us who actually do respond either end up going against the grain of socialized religion and/or invent our own religion."  I'd have to agree with this. The connection with C4 socializing and spirituality may be tenuous, but organized religion most certainly robs us of our autonomy.

Whatever you might say about A.A.'s take on what spirituality "is", the ideas he has for personal fulfillment are very accurate.  "We'll be returning to society searching for our place as people in our human form.. this can be quite a difficult task to perform. Modern society really has not place carved out for people like this. Our alternative… is with custom-designing our own personality, its place in society and the vocation we aspire towards to pay the rent. We may have to do this without the confirmation of others. In fact, the need for confirmation may be the last obstacle to self-empowerment."  Our desire to belong to the group may hinder our efforts to become as free as we can be.


Well, those are the 4 lower gears.  Now, we have to go through Chapel Perilous.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on October 27, 2009, 04:42:23 am
Thoughts unrelated to C4, but directly to the themes of C5-C8.

C5---->>> All is One ----> recognizing oneness

C6---->>> I am Many ----> recognizing multiplicity of awareness

C7---->>> We are a Network ----> recognizing connections/networks

C8 --->>> The Void (or potential or the unknown or factor x, whatever you call it) ---->recognizing the unknown


Okay, summarizing. The above are what seems to be the main themes in each of the 4 upper circuits AA works with. Each upper circuit can be treated as a reality filter. Through C5 one filters for that which unifies, makes whole, binds things as one. Through C6 one filters for that which discriminates, separates, and determines differences. Through C7 one filters for complex webs/networks/systems, and C8 is filtering for the the unknown. The 8 circuits as a model from where I am working now in my life seems to be a way of filtering reality to see different aspects via focus through one or more circuits.

Funny how you need C6 to really recognize the possibility of a filtering system though. Without seeing the multiplicity of it all you can't recognize changing to see the world differently.

I'm gonna read your commentary in the morning LMNO. Sleep time.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 27, 2009, 12:49:37 pm
I really like that interpretation, Kai.  I'm gonna keep that in mind and run with it, if'n you don't object.

Working with that, we can postulate that C1-4 "is" your BIP/Filter/Map/Grid -- The different ways your personality can be put together in terms of phisicality, ego, semantic intelligence, and social behavior.

That would mean that C5-8 are different ways to Reconstruct/Jailbreak/re-write the map/re-program, and the various ways it can happen.

So, it would make sense that C5 can change your prison, but only through C6 and higher can you choose the way it's changed. 

Or something.  Either way, I like the way this sounds much better than the assumptions of DNA consciousness/past lives/non-local information sharing.

Thanks, Kai.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 27, 2009, 02:53:33 pm
I really like that interpretation, Kai.  I'm gonna keep that in mind and run with it, if'n you don't object.

Working with that, we can postulate that C1-4 "is" your BIP/Filter/Map/Grid -- The different ways your personality can be put together in terms of phisicality, ego, semantic intelligence, and social behavior.

That would mean that C5-8 are different ways to Reconstruct/Jailbreak/re-write the map/re-program, and the various ways it can happen.

So, it would make sense that C5 can change your prison, but only through C6 and higher can you choose the way it's changed. 

Or something.  Either way, I like the way this sounds much better than the assumptions of DNA consciousness/past lives/non-local information sharing.

Thanks, Kai.


Yes! This is very much how I tend to see it.

Hardware Layer = Physical limitations put in place by physics and genetics
Circuits I - IV = Initial Programs, Version 1.0
Circuits V-VIII = The tools that allow you to metaprogram/reprogram the first four circuits.

That is why I had such a difficult time switching to the BiP model as laid out by many people here... the PD BiP seems to put the HW layer and Circuits I-IV together to form the BiP :) or Cainad's variation which seems to split along those lines.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 27, 2009, 02:57:23 pm
Not to get back into this, but the BIP posits that even though you can reprogram C1-4, you can't eliminate them.  They have to be programmed in some way; and programs, by their definition, are limiting.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 27, 2009, 04:23:28 pm
Not to get back into this, but the BIP posits that even though you can reprogram C1-4, you can't eliminate them.  They have to be programmed in some way; and programs, by their definition, are limiting.

I don't disagree at all :)

However, I think its why I tend to separate the Biological constraints which we cannot modify, from the programming constraints which we can (ie the spaceship/submarine/etc model)

Every time I go through this book I pick up more bits that have directly influenced my thinking
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 27, 2009, 04:27:23 pm
So, how are we to understand Chapel Perilous?  I certainly wouldn't say it's a "place where 'souls' go after leaving their robot bodies... while these bodies are still alive and walking the planet's surface."  And I'm not sure I'd run with the metaphor and posit "sermons" that the "congregation of souls" needs to hear before returning.

I would, however, say that it's the minds state you get into when you are "shocked" out of your pre-programmed habits.  "Shock, as defined here, is that effect initiated by a source beyond our control which suddenly alters our sense of ourselves and the world around us. Shocks arrive in a variety of impacts, ranging from the mild to the severely traumatic. An energetic function of shock is to temporarily disconnect us from our usual, habitual and routine ways of doing things... behavior, language, attitude, etc. It often produces a sense of Limbo, floating feelings and an overall 'disconnectedness'."

So, whenever we get our realities shaken up, you enter that void where nothing makes "sense" to your map.  Or it might be that you are faced with the machine language of your programming.  You see the monkey inside your brain, pushing buttons.  The universe is not as it seems, and your behaviors are not your own.  So, how the hell do we get out?

"One creative way to respond to shock is by reconnecting ourselves to new habits and routines which increase our intelligence and make us happy."  Basically, reprogramming.  What could possibly go wrong?  "It is during this time that new directions may be initiated and crystallized when the 'gap of our death' eventually closes down again and we stabilize… If we're naive to this effect and don't reconnect ourselves creatively, we lapse back even deeper into our previous habitual patterns... like them or not." He's talking about imprinting, but this actually sounds better to me for some reason. 

So, this section is made up of "sermons" that are supposed to reflect different ways a person can get unstuck from their gears.  Instead of explaining and describing them, the whole chapter is an extended metaphor.  Considering that the 8C model is a metaphor to begin with, that's one too many for my tastes.  I'll quote any bits I find insightful, but for the most part, I skimmed a lot of this part.



I got nuthin'.

I might be overly jaded, but I couldn't really get into these sermons; I especially didn't like the soul/body disconnect, or the past lives/karma bits.  Perhaps it's fruitless to try to give instructions through CP… the experience tends to be beyond linguistics, so you can't really talk about it very well.   I guess if I had to do this section, I'd say something like:

You can enter Chapel Perilous in at least 4 different ways.

1) You experience major changes to your physical body.  Drugs, Injury/Illness, Puberty, Menopause, etc.  The changes need not be detrimental— if, for example, you are finally freed after years of debilitating pain, you are forced to reassess the world and your place in it.

2) Your place on the dominant/submissive ladder radically shifts.  Your ego, or your psychic territory, gets majorly worked over. Beta or Gamma dogs who are suddenly thrust into leadership positions, poor people who win the lottery, BMOC's who can't get respect in the workplace, etc.

3) You don't know what you know.  Your knowledge base is completely rocked. Facts you thought you know are no longer true, or the things you thought were false are indeed true. The earth, which is round, goes around the sun.  "Irregardless" is not a word.  Belgium does not actually exist.

4) The social roles/rules/games have been obliterated.  Gays come out of the closet and get married, there is no God, the Democratic Process isn't, the police are not your friend.

The above, of course, can be mixed and matched to varying degrees.  For example, let's say a religious man is excommunicated from his church.  You could easily say that all four of the above have occurred.  The church provided a substitute for safety, a hierarchy to structure the ego, a list of True Things, and a moral code.  All of which has been stripped away, or altered.  Or conversely, a confused agnostic is provided a safe space, told he is special, given Truth, and provided a set of game rules.  He then becomes a Scientologist.

I suppose when  presented so clinically, it sounds trite and simple.  What's missing is the Sheer TERROR being in CP provides.  But we'll leave that for the poets.

If everyone's ok with it, let's see what we can glean from Gears 5-8.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on October 27, 2009, 04:41:08 pm
I really like that interpretation, Kai.  I'm gonna keep that in mind and run with it, if'n you don't object.

Working with that, we can postulate that C1-4 "is" your BIP/Filter/Map/Grid -- The different ways your personality can be put together in terms of phisicality, ego, semantic intelligence, and social behavior.

That would mean that C5-8 are different ways to Reconstruct/Jailbreak/re-write the map/re-program, and the various ways it can happen.

So, it would make sense that C5 can change your prison, but only through C6 and higher can you choose the way it's changed. 

Or something.  Either way, I like the way this sounds much better than the assumptions of DNA consciousness/past lives/non-local information sharing.

Thanks, Kai.

Sorta. I guess I was holding two or more simultaneous models of the 8C map. From one standpoint its a progression of increasing intelligence, moving from 1C to 8C. From another standpoint its a simultaneous system that operates within a person, and like the chakras system each C can be focused and embodied individually and/or together as a whole with the rest. But you're right, you'd /only discover/ this second way of looking at it if you had first discovered/passed through 6C, because it is in 6C where the multiplicity of awareness and reality selection is realized.

Gonna go eat lunch, I'll be back.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on October 27, 2009, 05:25:29 pm
I'll be completely honest, I didn't understand chapel perilous when I first read it and I still don't understand the concept now.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 27, 2009, 05:30:27 pm
The best I can do is say that there are times when your programming is thrown totally out of whack by some external shock, realization, situation, or revelation.  In that moment, absolutely nothing makes sense.  The robot has no idea of how to act.  The map has gone from a topological survey of detroit to a map of the London Subway system.  None of the previous rules apply.  You feel disoriented, alone, adrift, afraid.  Unsafe, unsure, unthinking, unattached.


Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on October 27, 2009, 06:26:00 pm
The best I can do is say that there are times when your programming is thrown totally out of whack by some external shock, realization, situation, or revelation.  In that moment, absolutely nothing makes sense.  The robot has no idea of how to act.  The map has gone from a topological survey of detroit to a map of the London Subway system.  None of the previous rules apply.  You feel disoriented, alone, adrift, afraid.  Unsafe, unsure, unthinking, unattached.




I feel like that all the time. Not constantly, but daily.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 27, 2009, 06:27:43 pm
Considering what little I know about you, I find that completely understandable.  No worries.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on October 27, 2009, 06:33:34 pm
I think I like RAW's discussion of Chapel Perilous in Prometheus Rising and Cosmic Trigger much better. It tends to sit solidly with LMNO's commentary above and has a lot less fluff as AT seems to have. Although, in AA's defense, at the time I first read this book, I sucked that stuff up. I was right in the middle of CP at the time and it made a lot of sense then. Now it seems a bit off, but I wonder if it has more to do with my state of mind?

In PR RAW says that Chapel Perilous is the place you go when your map/model of reality is suddenly revealed to be incomplete/incompatible with reality:

http://dedroidify.blogspot.com/2008/10/robert-anton-wilson-on-chapel-perilous.html

"Chapel Perilous is a stage in the magickal quest in which your maps turn out to be totally inadequate for the territory and you're completely lost. And at that point you get an ally who helps you find your way back to something you can understand. And then after that for the rest of your life you've got this question: Was that ally a supernatural helper, or was it just part of my own mind trying to save me from going totally bonkers with this stuff? And the people I know who've had that kind of experience, very few of them have come to an absolutely certain conclusion about this."


Good Old Crazy Bob.


Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 27, 2009, 06:40:23 pm
What I have been running into is that his definition of "Confusion Alert" sounds very similar to this:


Quote
"Confusion Alert - The basic disorientation occurring when an idea of reality contradicts and/or resists the living experience of that reality itself."
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Jenne on October 27, 2009, 07:03:49 pm
Reminds me of my piece on disreality.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 27, 2009, 07:05:29 pm
Cross-post?
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Jenne on October 27, 2009, 07:05:56 pm
It's here somewhere.  *goes to search*
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Jenne on October 27, 2009, 07:06:59 pm
http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=12406.0

Just bumped it.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Cain on October 28, 2009, 11:10:51 am
AA has written a sequel, btw

http://mutateweb.com/archives/2009/10/04/antero-allis-sequel-to-angel-tech-now-available/

An excerpt is available here http://www.realitysandwich.com/Eight_Circuit_Brain.  This is just a very small portion of it :

Quote
"We soared, we crashed, we burnt out, we're tuning back in."

We are all walking through the pages of our own stories every day, stories that intersect the stories of others, dead and alive, as chapters in the larger Book of Life. If you are friends with writers, your story will probably end up in their writings or in their books some day, whether you like it or not. Even if you have never met the author of a book or read the book itself, your story is probably already captured. This happens all the time. And no matter how much certain authors write from their own personal experience, they cannot help but also reveal the greater truths innate to the collective milieu we are all expressions of. Some of these writers seem to have built-in broadband antennae for picking up those signals and decoding them for the rest of us; Timothy Leary was one of these big antennae writers.

Large collective shifts have ways of grabbing our personal lives by the scruff of the neck and tossing us about as if we were plastic action figure replicas of ourselves. Sometimes these greater forces erupt from deep within our own genetic makeup and shock us with diseases unexpectedly inherited from our ancestors. Other times, we get lucky and the chaos gods of the zeitgeist decide it's our turn to win the lottery. Or when Aphrodite Love comes to town and turns our lives upside down in the name of Polymorphous Rapture.

These "outside shocks" can be humbling to any naive ego still in denial of the objective truths (and shocks) of Ecstasy, Uncertainty, Indivisibility and Impermanence. Thanks to Dr. Leary's Eight-Circuit Brain model, I learned to see these shocks as activation points for what he calls fifth, sixth, seventh and eighth circuits, respectively. As it turns out, we all have antennas to pick up the big signals. We only have to learn how to unwrap them from ourselves, our self-absorption, and point them outwards again.

In video-blogger Brian Shields' interview with Lisa Ferguson (2/8/2009 at the Timothy Leary reunion party, 111 Minna gallery in S.F.), she shares a startling message from Leary himself, spoken to her personally three days before his death. "We were right," he told her, "all the ideas and dreams we had back then, we were right. It's time to tune back in." Lisa took his message to heart as a boost to complete her documentary film, "Children of the Revolution." Inspired by her own Millbrook childhood stories where her baby sitters were none other than Tim Leary, Ralph Metzner and Richard Alpert (Ram Dass), the film also features interviews with other sixties luminaries and what they are tuning into today. Watch for it!

Those who were not alive to witness or participate in the sixties cultural revolution first hand may feel a sense of having missed out on something important and/or harbor the more cynical belief that the world is worse off thanks to Baby Boomer's self-indulgent delusions of entitlement that got us into the mess we're in today. As with many polarized views, the truth often lies somewhere in between. It is now well documented that the American media and government created and maintained the illusion that the sixties were a failed experiment in drug abuse, sexual debauchery, and impossible utopian ideals. And in one sense they were right. Literally millions of participants in this cultural experiment soared, crashed, burnt out, and lost all perspective by pursuing overly inflated, narcissistic visions of changing the world with more peace, love, sex, and LSD.

I can only assume that most utopian visions fail from apathy due to a lack of the consistent self-discipline necessary to embody the vision and "become the change we want to see in the world." Any full-blown spiritual event, with or without LSD, can naturally expose the futility and the illusion of ego. In a naive attempt to preserve spiritual revelation, many ego-trashing dogmas have been created. Taken to heart, any anti-ego hippie belief can easily lead to a "why bother?" apathy masked by a "just mellow out and go with the flow" fatalism. As it turns out, a strong, flexible ego is necessary to manifest our innermost dreams in the external world at large. Any attempt to hold onto a dream, without the self-work to embody it, keeps that dream alive in the mind alone. And in the sixties, LSD opened up millions of minds and more specifically, millions of third eyes (sixth circuit). This powerful cultural and psychic event also catalyzed equally potent somatic, body-centered experiences through the sixties' sexual revolution. LSD can also make us very horny.

The sixties were not a failed experiment. The sixties wrote the first chapter in an ongoing book of how culture transforms itself starting at the level of the individual. In this chapter, an all-encompassing epiphany of self-awareness explodes in the brain and exposes the nature of reality itself. This event can easily overwhelm the existing means to contextualize and apply this knowledge, especially if we are spiritually starved and cannot stop eating fruit from the tree of cosmic knowledge. We eat, we rest, we talk and dream of future societies, and then we eat some more and talk some more. The more forbidden fruit we eat, the more our minds expand and enflame the search for what it all means, ad infinitum and ad nauseum.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on October 28, 2009, 11:55:11 am
You know what?  I'll probably give that one a pass.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on October 28, 2009, 02:37:33 pm
I didn't realize that non-narrative nonfiction could have sequels. Usually, people just release a new edition, or another book on the same subject.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Triple Zero on October 30, 2009, 08:37:41 am
It would be even more confusing if this were parts 4,5 and 6 and he'd release the prequels years later.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on November 04, 2009, 07:35:56 pm
Question: How many are interested in me going through Gears 5-8?
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on November 04, 2009, 07:36:55 pm
  :mrgreen:
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on November 04, 2009, 07:39:38 pm
I am very interested in your thoughts on those gears... hell, I'm still considering them myself since I first read the book about 8 years ago.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on November 04, 2009, 07:40:51 pm
Ok, cool.  I'll see if I can find some time to write up my notes.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on November 04, 2009, 09:32:49 pm
I just considered another thing. If I look at the upper circuits as reality filters, it seems they fit in nicely with The One and The Many, IOW, whole vs, parts, Individual vs society, singular versus plural, etc.

Back to what I said before:

5C = All is One. Holism, in essence. The whole in total without division is the focus of this C, the whole of the current experience and/or some particular object within experience.

6C = I am Many. Or more specifically, pluralism. The parts and the divisions of the whole in reduction are the focus of this C.

7C = We are a Network. This circuit is addressing the connections of the whole to the parts and vice versa, and the whole to the wholes and the parts to other parts. The focus of this C is systems.

8C = The Void. Possibilities. The future. Extrapolation and strong inference are the focus of this C. Since The Void is the unknown, its akin to jumping off a cliff, not really sure whats below.


So, you can see that the Circuts can be used as filters to address /the same things/ in different ways via The One and The Many. The problem with one and many arguments is that its very situational, thus the solution is changing the filters to alter the focus for any situation/object/argument.

cf. The first chapter of Tao Te Ching. Laotse had it figured out first.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bu🤠ns on November 05, 2009, 06:04:06 am
Question: How many are interested in me going through Gears 5-8?

I realize you already decided, but would also like to contribute my support of your doing that :)
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bu🤠ns on November 05, 2009, 06:09:00 am
That's really interesting, Kai.

Today I considered the Nirvana/Samsara duality.  That when someone realizes all is one what's left but to go back into the separateness? (I guess that's the Bodhisattva idea).  Once he realizes all is one, he can get as attached and caught up in whatever he want's because of the initial "mystical" or "ecological" experience.  There's a context for the plurality.  By going back in, there's an understanding of the 'parts of a whole' and his contribution in a system/network.  After that, I suppose that the sky is the limit in the most real sense of the phrase.  The Golden Sphere of possibility, so to speak.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Triple Zero on November 05, 2009, 01:08:39 pm
Question: How many are interested in me going through Gears 5-8?

I'm reading up, but I'm still at your second summary post.

When I get here I'll know if I'm interested, but going by past performance, a likely outcome seems "yes".
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on November 05, 2009, 01:19:17 pm
That's really interesting, Kai.

Today I considered the Nirvana/Samsara duality.  That when someone realizes all is one what's left but to go back into the separateness? (I guess that's the Bodhisattva idea).  Once he realizes all is one, he can get as attached and caught up in whatever he want's because of the initial "mystical" or "ecological" experience.  There's a context for the plurality.  By going back in, there's an understanding of the 'parts of a whole' and his contribution in a system/network.  After that, I suppose that the sky is the limit in the most real sense of the phrase.  The Golden Sphere of possibility, so to speak.

YES! Dude, you totally grasped the point!

I really think you can apply the "One ---> Many ---> Network  -----> Void" model to many different arguments/systems/etc. They all really exist simultaneously; theres a "Oftentimes, one strips oneself of passion in order to see the Secret of Life; Oftentimes, one regards life with passion, in order to see its manifest forms. These two (the Secret and its manifestations) are (in their nature) the same; They are given different names when they become manifest." way of looking at it. Laotse was talking about reality filters.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on November 05, 2009, 03:07:16 pm
That's really interesting, Kai.

Today I considered the Nirvana/Samsara duality.  That when someone realizes all is one what's left but to go back into the separateness? (I guess that's the Bodhisattva idea).  Once he realizes all is one, he can get as attached and caught up in whatever he want's because of the initial "mystical" or "ecological" experience.  There's a context for the plurality.  By going back in, there's an understanding of the 'parts of a whole' and his contribution in a system/network.  After that, I suppose that the sky is the limit in the most real sense of the phrase.  The Golden Sphere of possibility, so to speak.

YES! Dude, you totally grasped the point!

I really think you can apply the "One ---> Many ---> Network  -----> Void" model to many different arguments/systems/etc. They all really exist simultaneously; theres a "Oftentimes, one strips oneself of passion in order to see the Secret of Life; Oftentimes, one regards life with passion, in order to see its manifest forms. These two (the Secret and its manifestations) are (in their nature) the same; They are given different names when they become manifest." way of looking at it. Laotse was talking about reality filters.

This is the correct Rice Papercycle. ;-)


Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on November 05, 2009, 03:33:53 pm
So what I'm guessing is, in the parts of 5C-8C in AT that turn us off, what can we /replace/ in the One/Many/Network/Void system for our benefit?
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on November 05, 2009, 03:38:17 pm
We'll see.  I'm arriving at a slightly different language, but it's the same principle. Hopefully, by the end of the day I'll have at least half of C5 finished (it's a longer chapter).
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on November 05, 2009, 04:16:40 pm
So what I'm guessing is, in the parts of 5C-8C in AT that turn us off, what can we /replace/ in the One/Many/Network/Void system for our benefit?

Model Agnosticism FTW! Go Kai!
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on November 05, 2009, 04:29:52 pm
So what I'm guessing is, in the parts of 5C-8C in AT that turn us off, what can we /replace/ in the One/Many/Network/Void system for our benefit?

Model Agnosticism FTW! Go Kai!

I thought model agnosticism was just a tool you used to quibble "it depends on the jurisdiction" at every argument.  :p

Not that it (the appropriate model/focus/reality filter depends on the state of the object/system) isn't true.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on November 05, 2009, 04:39:28 pm
So what I'm guessing is, in the parts of 5C-8C in AT that turn us off, what can we /replace/ in the One/Many/Network/Void system for our benefit?

Model Agnosticism FTW! Go Kai!

I thought model agnosticism was just a tool you used to quibble "it depends on the jurisdiction" at every argument.  :p

Not that it (the appropriate model/focus/reality filter depends on the state of the object/system) isn't true.

ROFL, Nah, that's just the easiest use case to annoy Discordians ;-)
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 05, 2009, 07:35:05 pm
I finished the intro and the first chapter. I had trouble with it.

It took a long time due to some reasons people may find dumb or stubborn.


For one, I am finding this to be quite boring so far, if only because I've already read Prometheus Rising, and a lot of other text on the 8-circuit model. This seems very similar. I'm not sure that I need another description/interpretation of Leary's work.

For two, the language turns me off. All the talk of angels, beings of light, and learning to love... So far, it reads like a self-help book. I guess it is a self-help book. Meh.


Kai said that Alli handles the circuits differently than RAW. Unlike RAW, Alli doesn't believe in using chemicals to stimulate the upper circuits (which is a relief because I have no desire to do ketamine in order to experience universal consciousness).

But other than that, how much of this is going to be "new" info for me? So far I have not encountered any new information. This is not the fault of the book, this is probably very useful for some people, it's just kind of played-out for someone that's been reading RAW and friends for 10+ years.

I'm gonna try it, because Prometheus Rising and The Cosmic Trigger were completely unreadable books full of very useful information.  If this book can impart the same info without being all hippyish, then I'm all for it.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on November 05, 2009, 07:36:34 pm
Roger, its hippyish still, just in different ways.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on November 05, 2009, 07:45:19 pm
It's really, really happy.


I'd suggest reading the various synopses in this thread (tooting my own horn), and see if you like it.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on November 05, 2009, 07:54:48 pm
I finished the intro and the first chapter. I had trouble with it.

It took a long time due to some reasons people may find dumb or stubborn.


For one, I am finding this to be quite boring so far, if only because I've already read Prometheus Rising, and a lot of other text on the 8-circuit model. This seems very similar. I'm not sure that I need another description/interpretation of Leary's work.

For two, the language turns me off. All the talk of angels, beings of light, and learning to love... So far, it reads like a self-help book. I guess it is a self-help book. Meh.


Kai said that Alli handles the circuits differently than RAW. Unlike RAW, Alli doesn't believe in using chemicals to stimulate the upper circuits (which is a relief because I have no desire to do ketamine in order to experience universal consciousness).

But other than that, how much of this is going to be "new" info for me? So far I have not encountered any new information. This is not the fault of the book, this is probably very useful for some people, it's just kind of played-out for someone that's been reading RAW and friends for 10+ years.

I'm gonna try it, because Prometheus Rising and The Cosmic Trigger were completely unreadable books full of very useful information.  If this book can impart the same info without being all hippyish, then I'm all for it.

Heh, AA is far more optimistic than RAW.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 05, 2009, 08:02:56 pm
It's really, really happy.


Oh.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on November 05, 2009, 08:05:04 pm
I think the term I used was "Annoyingly Optimistic".
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 05, 2009, 08:06:52 pm
I think the term I used was "Annoyingly Optimistic".

Well, fuck that.  Ima go get more Warren Ellis.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on November 05, 2009, 08:08:03 pm
I think we need to write a book on the 8C model in Roger Prime.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on November 05, 2009, 08:43:53 pm
I think we need to write a book on the 8C model in Roger Prime.

This.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 05, 2009, 09:43:00 pm
I think we need to write a book on the 8C model in Roger Prime.

muhaha.

We don't need all 8 circuits, then, do we?
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 01:44:45 pm
Well, maybe we can replace Circuits 7 and 8 with Rage and Hate-Shitting?
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 05:36:22 pm
Well, maybe we can replace Circuits 7 and 8 with Rage and Hate-Shitting?

I thought that's what they were.   :?
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 06:06:21 pm
They are, but only when someone tries to describe to you what RAW thought they were.


TGRR: "Neuro-genetic what!? UUUUUNNNNNNNGGGGGHHHH!"
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 06:11:01 pm
They are, but only when someone tries to describe to you what RAW thought they were.


TGRR: "Neuro-genetic what!? UUUUUNNNNNNNGGGGGHHHH!"

I need a crane with wrecking ball attached, and I need to run around demolishing castles built on clouds.

Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 06:11:36 pm
That sounds like the beginning of a "I'm pretty sure if you gave me..." post.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 06:13:47 pm
That sounds like the beginning of a "I'm pretty sure if you gave me..." post.

Naw.  Big Tex is dead.  Got et by a grizzly bar.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on November 06, 2009, 06:18:16 pm
 :cry:
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 06:37:43 pm
:cry:

He forgot to duct tape the hatchets to his hands.   :sad:
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on November 06, 2009, 07:12:35 pm
The Six Shithate Model of Conciousness sounds like a catchy title.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 06, 2009, 07:33:51 pm
The Enki Effect, in effect.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on November 10, 2009, 03:02:49 pm
So, Gear Five.  Reflects Gear one, and is the state of Body Rapture.  Yeah, it's Getting HIGH.  The key here is the immediacy of being in The Moment.  "The quality is discovered through the body's natural, direct response to itself and the immediate environment... bypassing thought, preconception and projected meanings."

I appreciate that he underscores the pitfalls here, though… "You don't have to figure anything out. Fifth Grade begins right where you are. There is no reason for rapture to exist... it is deep and meaningless… This is a very happy place to be. It may feel like home ... or heaven... or as if your body is inside you. The curious phenomena about Rapture is that once we're there, there's no place to go! No goals, no future, no problem! However, because Sensory Intelligence is just one of eight levels, we learn about not making it a goal either."  Feeling good and high isn't the end point, though a hell of a lot of us end up acting that way. 

This is also where we get our first level of Gurus Who Don't Get It.  "A popular emotional resistance among our freshman Fifth Graders is status: making a big deal of the experience. It's fun to get high and sometimes it's easy to make it a status symbol by getting caught up in the "energetic charge" of the somatic high… Pleasure Cults and Ecstatic Religions are for Bliss Ninnies."

We should note that this level is pretty much beyond language, because when you're in The Moment inside your Body, there is no place for a linear, intellectual form of communication. "The language of the senses is kinetic: Movement, Dance and Mime form its symbols of gesture, posture and attitude."  Mime?  Ah, well.

One way you can get into Bliss mode, can possibly be Listening.  "Listen, moment-to-moment, to the sounds of your immediate environment. Listen to how your mind may make sense of the sounds: naming, categorizing and figuring them out. Now, give yourself permission to simply listen to the sounds as different energies."  Before you snort and roll your eyes, know that this is the way John Cage wanted to people to listen to his music.  He called music "intended noise", and did his best to get people to expand that definition, so that all noise was intended.  You can find those fleeting Transcendental moments if you try, be it a symphony or a cacophony.   

In line with Kai's model of C5 = All is One, we have, "The creative state of Sensory Intelligence necessitates a certain kind of eternal dependence: We create when we are alone. The word, alone, comes from combining all and one."  Normally, I dislike that kind of pseudo-lingual-numerology, but it seemed apt, so I threw it in there.

"Social resistance to Fifth Grade is often expressed as value judgments and are not at all uncommon. With so much Rapture, Bliss and Pleasure floating around, it's highly likely that our conditioned moral and ethical codes start acting up."  But then again, "Fifth Graders go through a totally spacy, disoriented and "untogether" period just to learn about internal dependence and letting go of social responsibility. During this phase, they may get a lot of judgmental flack from "envious" Fourth Graders who aren't comfortable with having as much fun. This is why Fifth Grade Homework entails the task of giving oneself permission to become completely selfish, just so we can follow through and graduate without other peoples' judgments, opinions and fears."  Maybe it's not so much that people are being Fourth Graders and are "Jealous", maybe that's just a natural reaction to someone who's being a Selfish Space Cadet.

Incidentally, the guy keeps spelling "judgment" as "judgement", and it's really starting to bug me.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Roaring Biscuit! on November 10, 2009, 03:22:36 pm
good stuff LMNO, i haven't read all of the book, but you're notes are still pretty darned good :)

also:

Quote
Incidentally, the guy keeps spelling "judgment" as "judgement", and it's really starting to bug me.

is he britspag?  that's how I've always spelt it.

x
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on November 10, 2009, 04:33:10 pm
good stuff LMNO, i haven't read all of the book, but you're notes are still pretty darned good :)

also:

Quote
Incidentally, the guy keeps spelling "judgment" as "judgement", and it's really starting to bug me.

is he britspag?  that's how I've always spelt it.

x

He doesn't have an accent... but that is the Britspag way to spell the word.

Excellent summary LMNO.

Quote
Maybe it's not so much that people are being Fourth Graders and are "Jealous", maybe that's just a natural reaction to someone who's being a Selfish Space Cadet.

If a person is stuck in fourth gear, they still have the social rules tightly in their brain. The person who is a 'selfish space cadet' isn't following the rules, they are being socially irresponsible, they are thinking about themselves instead of the tribe.

Part of the fifth circuit is realizing that not only is it OK for YOU to be a selfish space cadet sometimes, but its also ok for other people to focus on themselves. Not just to make themselves better (introspection) but also its ok to occasionally be completely selfish and "get high" (however you do it) just for the Bliss. If a person 'has a problem with that', AA would say they haven't worked out their own 5th circuit yet... they haven't OK'd it for themselves, so how could it be OK for someone else?

We see that sort of thinking in conservative groups all the time. Some religious groups feel that dancing, makeup, more than a few sets of modest clothing etc are inappropriate because they are selfish, they are focused on the individual. To me, that appears as a very strong tribal imprint, which gets in the way of exploring the fifth circuit.

I also liked this chapter because it made be go back and rewatch Power of Myth and Joseph Campbell's  thoughts on "Follow Your Bliss". For Campbell, bliss seems to have a start at this circuit but progresses far beyond it.

Here's one of the bits:

Quote
JOSEPH CAMPBELL: If you follow your bliss, you put yourself on a kind of track that has been there all the while, waiting for you, and the life that you ought to be living is the one you are living. Wherever you are -- if you are following your bliss, you are enjoying that refreshment, that life within you, all the time.

* * *

Now, I came to this idea of bliss because in Sanskrit, which is the great spiritual language of the world, there are three terms that represent the brink, the jumping-off place to the ocean of transcendence: sat-chit-ananda. The word "Sat" means being. "Chit" means consciousness. "Ananda" means bliss or rapture. I thought, "I don't know whether my consciousness is proper consciousness or not; I don't know whether what I know of my being is my proper being or not; but I do know where my rapture is. So let me hang on to rapture, and that will bring me both my consciousness and my being." I think it worked.

Now that's not just the fifth circuit... Following your bliss isn't just sitting around stoned or tripping balls... following your bliss is about finding out what fulfills you personally and taking that path. It is a very selfish concept in some sense... for example, if your bliss is artwork and that is what makes you amazingly happy, following your bliss would mean choosing that life over a life that might net you more money, more stability and health insurance. If there's more than just you in your life, that might be seen as selfish by anyone strongly rooted in the tribal tradition of a protestant work ethic. following your bliss is about finding that which 'gets you high', which raises you to a level of fulfillment and passion. That gets its start in the fifth circuit, looking beyond the tribal rules of the 4th.

At least thats how I processed this chapter. Also, it's important to note the difference between "Following your bliss" and being a "Bliss Ninny". Cambell's idea of following your bliss was active, doing that which fulfills you... sitting around stoned off your ass, munching cheetos and watching reruns of Thundercats is not so much 'fulfilling' as 'escaping'... which the fifth circuit is often used for.

Bad Bliss Imprint: Paris Hilton
Good Bliss Imprint: Joseph Campbell

Bad Bliss Imprint: Britney Spears
Good Bliss Imprint: Cory Doctorow

All four are follow/followed their Bliss, be it hedonism, the study of something that fascinates them, or writing for the purpose of communicating ideas, rather than being focused on the cash.

* E-Prime the above as necessary
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on November 11, 2009, 02:37:03 am
Yes, the pitfall of 5C intelligence, escaping versus fullfilling. But I'd argue that escaping means I haven't gotten 1-4C in order, I'm neglecting my physical existence (1C), failing to set up good personal boundaries (2C), letting my cognitive processes wane (3C) and/or either neglecting social needs all together or continuing to let them dictate what is "fullfilling" in my life.

This sort of thinking comes to mind (that I've used before): I don't deserve to have what really fullfills me and makes me happy (4C and 2C), and I feel tired (1C) and I don't feel like thinking right now (3C) so I'm just going to lay in bed watching youtube videos all day long; even though it doesn't make me happy it still feels nice and I don't deserve to be happy anyway.

Note, most of that is subconscious thoughts.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on November 11, 2009, 03:27:01 pm
I think I wasn't focusing so much on people who can manage their Bliss and still function, I was talking about the people who treat C5 as the goal, and abandon C1-4; or the C5 "gurus" who tell you you're being all "uptight" and "heavy" and that you just need to "go with the flow, man."

Because believe me, I know C5.  I go there a lot, without getting stoned.  But you can't live there forever without horrific problems happening to you.  I know that from personal experience, as well.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on November 11, 2009, 04:39:10 pm
Yes, the pitfall of 5C intelligence, escaping versus fullfilling. But I'd argue that escaping means I haven't gotten 1-4C in order, I'm neglecting my physical existence (1C), failing to set up good personal boundaries (2C), letting my cognitive processes wane (3C) and/or either neglecting social needs all together or continuing to let them dictate what is "fullfilling" in my life.

This sort of thinking comes to mind (that I've used before): I don't deserve to have what really fullfills me and makes me happy (4C and 2C), and I feel tired (1C) and I don't feel like thinking right now (3C) so I'm just going to lay in bed watching youtube videos all day long; even though it doesn't make me happy it still feels nice and I don't deserve to be happy anyway.

Note, most of that is subconscious thoughts.

Excellent points. Though I think it may depend somewhat on how the person deals with Chapel Perilous as well. If they come out, stripped of all belief, in a completely nihilistic state of mind, they may also fall victim to the bliss trap. And CP can fuck you up even if your first four circuits are in some sense of order ;-)

I think I wasn't focusing so much on people who can manage their Bliss and still function, I was talking about the people who treat C5 as the goal, and abandon C1-4; or the C5 "gurus" who tell you you're being all "uptight" and "heavy" and that you just need to "go with the flow, man."

Because believe me, I know C5.  I go there a lot, without getting stoned.  But you can't live there forever without horrific problems happening to you.  I know that from personal experience, as well.

Oh absolutely, I was just trying to expound on the topic because it was one I really appreciated.  :)
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on November 11, 2009, 05:35:08 pm
Can you give me some theoretical examples of chapel perilous type experiences? Just trying to figure out where my own experiences fit.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on November 11, 2009, 05:42:39 pm
It's a subjective experience, so describing my own trips through the Chapel probably won't sound that bad.

But one of the most basic is the first time all of your pre-concieved assumptions about the Way Things Work are stripped away in one sudden instant.  For me, this was mostly social (I had moderatly good C1 and 2, and really good C3, but C4 was always somewhat of a mystery).  Like when you head into a situation with an understanding that everyone thinks a certain way, and you base most of your behaviors and personality on that, and then it's kicked out from under you, and you're left hanging in the void.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: fomenter on November 11, 2009, 05:45:21 pm
the chapel is the descent into madness, the loosing connection with all sense of direction, its the point in a life that no thinking or thought, no idea in your mind can resolve.. how you get there and the circumstances that surround your entry to the chapel are as infinite as human experience, the results of a trip through the chapel are madness or illumination.. (a somewhat poetic description is the best i can do)
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on November 11, 2009, 05:48:27 pm
Can you give me some theoretical examples of chapel perilous type experiences? Just trying to figure out where my own experiences fit.

Sure.

I once did a ritual invocation of Therion. The whole nine yards.... and then I was no longer me doing the ritual. I was inside a tawny colored animal... I could see my paws and fur and I was in a field, with a tree... according to the other people in the ritual, I was wandering around on all fours growling and pawing at things.

When I left that experience, I had to decide what it meant, was it 'real'? was it 'real' in some sense? was it "all in my head"? did it matter if it was all in my head, or was that as legitimate an experience as any other? Was it supernatural? Was it psychological? Was it something in the "collective unconscious"? Was it something entirely in my imagination? Was it demons? (having been just out of the JW's religion, that last one took a while to decide on).

That's a kind of chapel perilous experience. Up to that point, I believed that magic was mostly bullshit, but that rituals might be useful from a psychological standpoint. When that hit me, none of what I thought I knew fit anymore. I certainly didn't think before that time, that I could just fool myself that deeply... I certainly didn't think that Therion was really Real... but I couldn't usefully explain the experience.

RAW writes about his CP experience in Cosmic Trigger, where he spent months experiencing what appeared to him as "communication from aliens on the planet Sirius."

As I understand CP, its all about the point where you suddenly realize that your maps and models don't cover all bits of reality and you gotta figure out a new map, or figure out that you can use multiple maps, and none of them may be completely right... or you may just go crazy.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on November 11, 2009, 05:53:20 pm
So, its the point of shock, the point where everything feels like its just gone totally nuts, the situation where I "don't really know whats real and whats not anymore" (how I've said it before), or what to believe, or who is right or wrong, or where meaning might be found in my life, etc etc. A midlife crisis on a more fundamental scale.

Jesus christ, I've been in and out of chapel perilous for the last 10 years.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on November 11, 2009, 05:55:18 pm
A lot of us have been.  The trick is finding out the easiest way to leave once you find yourself in there.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on November 11, 2009, 05:56:09 pm
So, its the point of shock, the point where everything feels like its just gone totally nuts, the situation where I "don't really know whats real and whats not anymore" (how I've said it before), or what to believe, or who is right or wrong, or where meaning might be found in my life, etc etc. A midlife crisis on a more fundamental scale.

Jesus christ, I've been in and out of chapel perilous for the last 10 years.

Yep. Thats the game.

And as far as I understand it, some people never leave Chapel Perilous. Others leave and return many times. Still others think they've left and spend eternity just wandering around in the foyer.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on November 11, 2009, 05:58:48 pm
And still others obsess about ways to stretch the metaphor to avoid facing the main issue.  :wink:
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on November 11, 2009, 06:02:45 pm
And still others obsess about ways to stretch the metaphor to avoid facing the main issue.  :wink:

ROFL... I think that summary came out of one of the Cosmic Trigger books.

But, I think it makes a useful point. I have known some people that had their chapel perilous experience and just lost their shit. And others that think they got it all together, but instead they're like Fission Chips and get swallowed up by St. Toad.

But, in the end, its just a metaphor.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on November 11, 2009, 06:47:11 pm
CP is like a BIP except scary -- it's scary because you know it's there, and you aren't entirely sure that's a good thing. If you think you have escaped, you probably haven't.

Is the above a valid statement?
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on November 11, 2009, 06:50:11 pm
CP is like a BIP except scary -- it's scary because you know it's there, and you aren't entirely sure that's a good thing. If you think you have escaped, you probably haven't.

Is the above a valid statement?

Hrmmm... thats good.

Though, maybe we could say that CP is like the hallway outside your cell in the BIP... Its not where you're safe, its not where everything is made by your experiences in life, it might lead to a new bigger and better cell, back to the old cell or into solitary confinement.

Hope it doesn't tear from all this stretching ;-)
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on November 11, 2009, 06:51:33 pm
CP could be a /revelation/ of a BIP, but no, CP isn't like a BIP. AA calls it a place but its more like a state of mind. On the other hand the BIP isn't a place either, or a state of mind, but a metaphor about reality filters.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on November 11, 2009, 06:59:03 pm
CP could be a /revelation/ of a BIP, but no, CP isn't like a BIP. AA calls it a place but its more like a state of mind. On the other hand the BIP isn't a place either, or a state of mind, but a metaphor about reality filters.

CP can involve reality filters.... maybe we could say that CP is like the point when something takes a wrecking ball through one of the Walls of your BIP?
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: fomenter on November 11, 2009, 07:00:09 pm
metaphor testing (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Signs/danger.gif)

the bip is a prison made of bars, the cp is the in between where the bars have collapsed and their sharp ends are all pointing at you in a dangerous and unfamiliar way,
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on November 11, 2009, 07:08:39 pm
We just broke both of them.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on November 11, 2009, 07:13:14 pm
I approve of this metaphor.

I suppose I might frame CP in the BIP metaphor two ways myself: either your BIP (which while a prison is at least usually familiar) is suddenly replaced with something entirely different, without warning, or your BIP has been reformatted to something fundamentally paranoid (like a moving spiked prison with cameras designed for SM Snuff fans). I wouldn't say that the BIP is destroyed (even partially), but fundamentally changed in unfamiliar and threatening ways. Your space has been destroyed; your friends are your enemies, and those you thought meek are suddenly pointing guns in your face. Your circuit 1-4 imprints are no longer suitable for the environment, or alternately, your imprints have changed and the environment stayed the same -- or you are seeing the environment differently and neither have changed except in terms of perception.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on November 11, 2009, 07:14:47 pm
If we chew hard enough we might get GUM.

Ya know... the Grand Unified Metaphor ;-)
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on November 11, 2009, 07:15:12 pm
I hate you all.  :argh!:
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: fomenter on November 11, 2009, 08:02:16 pm
I hate you all.  :argh!:

i 2nd this  :lulz:
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on November 11, 2009, 08:11:24 pm
CP is when your Reality Filter shatters.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on November 11, 2009, 08:13:41 pm
CP is when your Reality Filter shatters.

YES! It goes from a window that you can look through to a kaleidoscope view from the force of the impact...

?
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on November 11, 2009, 09:49:08 pm
CP is when your Reality Filter shatters.

YES! It goes from a window that you can look through to a kaleidoscope view from the force of the impact...

?

 :x :argh!: :argh!: UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNnGGGGGGg
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on November 11, 2009, 09:51:42 pm
CP is when your Reality Filter shatters.

YES! It goes from a window that you can look through to a kaleidoscope view from the force of the impact...

?

 :x :argh!: :argh!: UNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNnGGGGGGg


MA; It's not Model Agnosticism, its Model ABUSE!
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bu🤠ns on November 12, 2009, 04:51:05 am
Chapel Perilous is like the Hole of the BIP.   You know, "THROW EM IN THE HOLE!"  The problem is, you're your own jailer as well as prisoner so the question is when do you let yourself out?

or

Chapel Perilous is when your Cosmic Schmuckery goes bananas.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bu🤠ns on November 12, 2009, 05:18:54 am
My experience with 5C was sort of like the point where understood that the 'feeling' of self and other being separate was also the 'feeling' of connection.  I guess in Buddhistic terms this is called Samadhi or the 'merging of self and other'.   

 The problem, I'd say, is actually remembering this state when shit goes down.

This was also the problem with Tim Leary's trip.  You can get high but can't stay high. And if you *could* stay high, you're probably gonna get shot.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Triple Zero on November 14, 2009, 04:14:39 pm
CP is what gets you banned from 4Chan.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Cain on November 14, 2009, 04:19:33 pm
Who knew that Club Penguin was so contentious, yet influential?

(http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/5797/125641755432.jpg)
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: nurbldoff on November 17, 2009, 11:51:53 pm
I bought this book maybe a year ago but then I quickly borrowed it to someone before I actually got to reading it.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on December 03, 2009, 05:59:58 pm
It's been a while.  Sorry.


So, what does Fifth Gear really entail?  Basically, selfish pleasure.  Rapturous hedonism, unbound by space, time, and social conventions.  Since 5C is connected to 1C, then we revert back to the beginning.  Our pleasure is entirely internal, and focused inward.  "Sensory Intelligence is internally dependent in a similar way that First Grade Physical Intelligence is externally dependent." 

However, in order to become Internally Dependent, you really, really need to be comfortable with yourself. "Internal dependence is in direct opposition to our conditioned, social needs for approval, acceptance and permission to be ourselves. From a sensory perspective, our need for outer confirmation occasionally poses as The Last Obstacle to self-empowerment."  Whether you call it "giving yourself permission", or "casting aside social objections", or whatever, you really need to be comfortable with who you are.  If you don't feel Safe (C1), you're never going to surrender to the Oceanic Bliss (or whatever language you want – remember, we're beyond words, here).

"When you cease to need social approval for the act of being yourself in public, you are potentially a "social threat." This is because you are no longer under anybody's control socially speaking. There are two basic types of social threat: 1) Negative Threats & 2) Positive Threats. The former include psychopaths and those whose social attitude is of the "fuck you" variety. The latter include those charismatic personalities catalyzing Sensory Intelligence in the people they make contact with, directly and/or indirectly."  Now, I wouldn't say that holding two fingers up to the social order is necessarily "Negative"; in fact, a large chunk of the social order deserves it, especially when it comes to the opinion of 5C FUN.  But I'd agree that someone who abandons all social mores simply for hedonistic pleasure would tend to be a dick; and I'd say that the Positive Threat of the Guru has a greater potential for damage.

"The preliminary, baby-phase of Sensory Intelligence is bound to cultivate a certain arrogance in u s... not the kind that makes us feel morally superior to others but the sense of being privileged or "chosen" to be included among The Living."  This is one thing I like about A.A., in that he makes it clear you can't just hit 5C and then stop.  "…During the advent of the 1960's, it was The Hippies who re-stabilized Sensory Intelligence. It didn't last, however, because there was nowhere to go with it. It was as if we were all dressed up with no place to go… The nature of Sensory Intelligence is very "zen" in that there really is NoWhere To Go because everything is Here and Now. This is kind of like getting "stuck in the present." There's nothing particularly "wrong" with this and everybody ought to try it at least once. For those of us wishing to graduate, it is imperative that we learn how to absorb, organize and communicate Sensory Intelligence… If we don't, we run the risk of remaining in the self-absorption phase of Rapture and must resign ourselves to the perpetual indulgence of our Hippy Ancestors."

He concludes with the observation that when we understand what 5C is, we look and strive for two things: Leisure Time, and Sex For Fun.  Usually, both at the same time.  If we don't have knowledge of 5C, we are concerned with Survival, and Rules.  5C occurs when we have no more survival worries, and we forget about the Rules.  Of course, if you spend too long there, you'll either risk your survival, or get eaten up by the Machine™.  So, like every other level, you need to integrate it into the whole.  And once you do that, you can some increased control over yourself.  "It is possible to, at will, disconnect our attachment to the conditioned, robotic response to things and shift into the direct sense perception and response of somatic contact."  That is, you can relax your physical body, and you can recognize the Rules that you operate by. We can detect the tension in ourselves, and learn to let it go.

We appear to be heading straight for another Ritual, so I'll stop here for now.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bu🤠ns on December 05, 2009, 08:11:14 am
lol nice ending. :lol:

5C Thus Slack.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on December 29, 2009, 04:34:02 pm
So, he speaks of Ritual in a way that can make sense in a pragmatic way.  "This approach to ritual is distinctly Asocial in that it serves to bypass personal interaction to delve deeper into the underlying forces governing personality in general. This technique will be referred to later on as setting up a Rare Area. . .one untouched by social obligation, personal judgements and intellectual discourse. A network of similar techniques have congealed into a cohesive ritual technology functioning to open external/internal senses for accessing energetic sources in  the body. The backbone of this technology combines elements of Zen, Dance and Theatre in a  nonperformance setting for the purpose of releasing the pressure to perform."

In the sense of 5C, this makes sense.  5C is related to 1C, which is intensely personal, and is connected with the physical body. Any ritual that it's associated with should be, above all, physical, and private.  This would be a great time for a masturbation joke.

So, the first thing to do is set up a so-called "Rare Area" (the opportunity for gutter humor abounds). Basically, this means creating a place and a state of mind that is Safe, in the 1C meaning of the word.  It's a place where you cannot be judged, where no ego games are being played, and where critical meta-analysis is not performed.  Save all that for later.  For now, you are trying to find a place where you can be yourself, no questions asked.  You can learn without feeling stupid, you can act without shame.

Because this ritual is a physical one, it helps to move around, and declare your space.  So, leave your rational mind out of this, and choose some spot in your Area that feels "best".  There is no "doing it right" here, you're just looking to get comfortable.  Don't bother trying to figure out why it's the best spot.  You could even just pick a random spot and declare it to be "right"; if you feel there's a better one later on, go ahead and move.  Hell, the spot doesn't even have to be the same every time.  The whole point is for you to be comfortable with where you are.

Ok, now that you've gotten that out of the way, you need to define your personal space.  In traditional terms, this is Making a Circle, and calling out the Cardinal Points.  You don't have to go all Wiccan on this one, but at least make some sort of physical movement that defines your space, even if it's doing the Cabbage Patch and "raising the roof".  Once you've defined where your space is, fucking own it.  Spend some time convincing yourself that the space you've just carved out is yours, physically, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually, in whatever way you define those terms.  This might take some effort, but that's good.  Do that.  Make that effort.  Tire yourself out a little bit.

So, now that you have your space, and you own it, be still.  Be quiet. Try to calm your brain down.  If you've worked hard to make the space your own, that should help you now.  You are safe in this place.  Just chill out for a bit.  Now, you need to warm up.  Do some deep breathing exercises (the "grounding meditation" mentioned earlier might work for you here).  Stretch your limbs.  Basically, don't ignore the body, get the blood pumping and feel it.  With any luck, you should now have a quiet mind, and an alert body.

Ok, things are gonna get a bit silly at this point, but what it boils down to is giving yourself permission.  You've got your space, you've made it personal, and you've made it safe.  Now you've got to allow yourself to do anything.  After you've done that and are in a sort of null-space, visualize the aspect you want to explore, and try to experience it without criticism or judgment.  Experience it physically.  Give yourself permission to do this and look silly doing it.  When you've gotten to a place where it feels most intense, and you're really losing yourself in the experience, mark it with a movement, or a phrase, or some kind of signal.  This will become something like an affirmation, in the way I've talked about affirmations in TFYS.  Finally, let it go, and get back to that null-space feeling.  Then, do what ever it is you need to do to get back into a so-called "normal" state.  There it is: ritual, with as little mumbo-jumbo as possible.  From here, A.A. gets more specific to his particular style, which involves groups, and polarizations, and different aspects to shape your ritual around.  If you care, that starts around page 153.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bebek Sincap Ratatosk on December 29, 2009, 04:39:31 pm
Very well stated.

:mittens:

I am enjoying your review of this book immensely LMNO.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on December 29, 2009, 06:23:31 pm
Really enjoyed that, LMNO. It was spot on.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bu🤠ns on December 31, 2009, 02:48:36 am
Thanks again, LMNO...in what thread was the affirmations topic?
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on December 31, 2009, 01:31:17 pm
I think it was a thread I started... I'll go look.


Here: http://www.principiadiscordia.com/forum/index.php?topic=22919.msg778034#msg778034

Enki killed the thread by page 2, but the OP still stands strong.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Rococo Modem Basilisk on December 31, 2009, 09:25:29 pm
Enki killed the thread by page 2, but the OP still stands strong.

Don't blame me, man. I don't like to read six page discussions over whether or not a single post was counterproductive any more than you do. I've stayed off the thread in hope that someone would revive it.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Telarus on March 09, 2010, 09:37:23 pm
Bump for a good video of Antero briefly discussing the Chapel Perilous metaphor, and explaining the symbolism behind his book title:

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1378237544377&ref=nf
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Telarus on April 14, 2010, 08:46:21 pm
"If you wish to increase perception, relax the urge to know, to label, and to define. While these reactions may temporarily secure our sense of certitude, their hypnotic influence easily overwhelms the inner action of seeing." -Antero Alli
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on April 16, 2010, 04:12:00 am
In other words, suspend judgement and remain a skeptic of reality until I can see the overall picture.

I've been thinking about this concept in Buddhism recently, the idea of the point of contact between awareness of arising and attachment/clinging to the arising. That is, sparsha is the point of contact between what we sense inside and outside of mind-body, and the feelings and cravings that arise coming from that point. If I control the point of contact, I can choose, consciously, my feelings, thoughts, actions and reactions.

I think AA was talking about sparsha in the above quote.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Shub-Crackerath on December 30, 2010, 10:26:08 am
Hey guys, just found this thread a little late obviously. The download link is dead, can anyone offer up a link for me please?

Thanks
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Kai on December 30, 2010, 09:28:04 pm
Sorry, have no idea.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 30, 2010, 09:29:42 pm
"If you wish to increase perception, relax the urge to know, to label, and to define. While these reactions may temporarily secure our sense of certitude, their hypnotic influence easily overwhelms the inner action of seeing." -Antero Alli

Wow.  That's a really funny way of saying "look at shit before you decide what it is".
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Epimetheus on December 30, 2010, 11:13:29 pm
"If you wish to increase perception, relax the urge to know, to label, and to define. While these reactions may temporarily secure our sense of certitude, their hypnotic influence easily overwhelms the inner action of seeing." -Antero Alli

Wow.  That's a really funny way of saying "look at shit before you decide what it is".

The whole of Angel Tech is really funny ways of saying things.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: the last yatto on December 31, 2010, 06:41:18 am
(http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af256/yattoksc/IMAG0295.jpg)
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Telarus on December 31, 2010, 07:52:23 am
"If you wish to increase perception, relax the urge to know, to label, and to define. While these reactions may temporarily secure our sense of certitude, their hypnotic influence easily overwhelms the inner action of seeing." -Antero Alli

Wow.  That's a really funny way of saying "look at shit before you decide what it is".

 :lulz: yeah, sometimes I prefer RAW's inanities.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: LMNO on February 08, 2013, 03:13:56 pm
Bump For Ipt.

My breakdown starts around Page 5.  I never did finish writing it up.
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Elder Iptuous on February 08, 2013, 03:47:27 pm
Thanks, LMNO. :)
Title: Re: Book Club: Angel Tech
Post by: Bu🤠ns on February 08, 2013, 05:24:05 pm
Bump For Ipt.

My breakdown starts around Page 5.  I never did finish writing it up.

Some day perhaps?  I was really looking forward to your thoughts on the later circuits.