Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Apple Talk => Topic started by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 11, 2012, 07:37:00 pm

Title: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 11, 2012, 07:37:00 pm
This future is a feeble thing, with no foundation to speak of.  All the important shit that's happened in the past is forgotten or twisted so far out of true that it fades from history into legend, and then into myth.  We are all taught that the constitution was written by plaster saints (or, more recently, by inhuman monsters).  More recently, we've forgotten the things that got us THEN in the same sort of trouble we're in NOW.

And I'm not just talking about bank failures, etc.  I'm also talking about badass motherfuckers like Frank Luke and Albert Ball, Alvin York and Manfred Albrecht Freiherr von Richthofen (Richter's great-grand-daddy, who shot some people down or something).  It is not quite a hundred years since The Great War began, and nobody knows a fucking thing about it. 

This is kind of unfortunate, because the fallout from this round of nasty little wars may very well have the same effects as the fallout from WWI had, in terms of society and economy.

It's also unfortunate simply because it's a damn shame to forget about people like that.  Sure, the war was senseless and really only happened because everyone thought they were due for a war, that there was some sort of obligation to King & country to have a war once a generation.  This may be stupid, but it doesn't reflect on the acts of the men who had to fight in horribly muddy trenches, or duel each other in "stringbags" and "crates" with shitty engines and no parachutes.

They learned then, as we have to relearn today - and I think Cain will agree with me on this - that when you put a rifle in a man's hand, you create a policy-maker.  And that man will do whatever it takes to stay alive, when you put him out on the sharp end.  This will cause him to act in ways that normal people would consider barbaric and insane.  And if the implications of those three facts taken together bother you, the proper time to address those concerns is before you call that man out of the barracks.

To be continued, in this thread.

Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: LMNO on June 11, 2012, 07:55:41 pm
I think I'm going to enjoy this thread.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Luna on June 11, 2012, 07:57:27 pm
Good stuff, can't wait to see more.

Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 11, 2012, 08:02:18 pm
I think I'm going to enjoy this thread.

I'm going to do about a page a day until I've spoken my piece.  However long that is.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: EK WAFFLR on June 11, 2012, 08:08:20 pm
This is brilliant so far, and it has the added effect of me having to brush up on my history.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on June 11, 2012, 08:09:49 pm
It's excellent. Maybe we've got 1912 and 1930's Germany running simultaneously this time, only with cheap shit from China and crappier food. Oh, and TV.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Don Coyote on June 11, 2012, 08:22:25 pm


They learned then, as we have to relearn today - and I think Cain will agree with me on this - that when you put a rifle in a man's hand, you create a policy-maker.  And that man will do whatever it takes to stay alive, when you put him out on the sharp end.  This will cause him to act in ways that normal people would consider barbaric and insane.  And if the implications of those three facts taken together bother you, the proper time to address those concerns is before you call that man out of the barracks.


Oi Reverend, great stuff, but what is to say that it is not intentional to put people in the kind of situations that would provoke them into barbarism?
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 11, 2012, 08:50:48 pm


They learned then, as we have to relearn today - and I think Cain will agree with me on this - that when you put a rifle in a man's hand, you create a policy-maker.  And that man will do whatever it takes to stay alive, when you put him out on the sharp end.  This will cause him to act in ways that normal people would consider barbaric and insane.  And if the implications of those three facts taken together bother you, the proper time to address those concerns is before you call that man out of the barracks.


Oi Reverend, great stuff, but what is to say that it is not intentional to put people in the kind of situations that would provoke them into barbarism?

Of course it is.  But the American public has been trained to see it otherwise.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Juana Go? on June 11, 2012, 10:24:40 pm
Interesting and I'm looking forward to more.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Murmur on June 12, 2012, 01:01:21 am
Patiently waiting for more...
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: N E T on June 12, 2012, 01:12:45 am
I'm googling the shit out of 1912 in the meantime....
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 12, 2012, 02:30:41 am
I'm googling the shit out of 1912 in the meantime....

"What", asked their father, "could possibly be wrong in the world?  It is 1910, Britain rules an empire upon which the sun never sets, and the whole world is at peace!"
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Placid Dingo on June 12, 2012, 06:21:50 am
I'm googling the shit out of 1912 in the meantime....

"What", asked their father, "could possibly be wrong in the world?  It is 1910, Britain rules an empire upon which the sun never sets, and the whole world is at peace!"

Mary Poppins?

I didn't pick up on that line until I saw it again recently.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 12, 2012, 01:58:32 pm
I'm googling the shit out of 1912 in the meantime....

"What", asked their father, "could possibly be wrong in the world?  It is 1910, Britain rules an empire upon which the sun never sets, and the whole world is at peace!"

Mary Poppins?

I didn't pick up on that line until I saw it again recently.

From the novelization.  The song in the movie is worded a little differently, but says the same thing.

Well done.  10 points and a gold SHUT UP.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 12, 2012, 03:20:53 pm
In World War I, great pains were taken to avoid combat in or directly around cities.  Once a city was under the guns of the enemy, it typically surrendered.  This was largely done for propaganda reasons…Neither side wanted to be the monsters that actually shelled a city full of non-combatants (though it did occasionally happen).  Also, they didn’t want reciprocation later on.  Some bombing took place, by zeppelin and by primitive bombers, but was largely ineffective and was more to signify that the defending nation couldn’t even protect its capitol.

Contrast that with the conditions of the average soldier on the ground, who faced insufficient clothing, sporadic food supplies, and the ever-present lice, corpse-eating rats, and mud.  The mud was in fact so bad that there are verified reports of people sinking into it and drowning.  To stick your head over the top of your trench was suicide, as enemy snipers would pretty much instantly take it off.  Add gas warfare into that, and you have a near-perfect vision of hell.

The primary means of inflicting casualties was machine guns.  When an attack kicked off, “went over the top”, the attacking soldiers would have to run 200-300 meters through mud, literally hundreds or thousands of decomposing bodies, and then try to get through the opponent’s wire before being machine gunned.  More often than not, they would not carry the trench, and their bodies would just add to the morass of rotting corpses. 

If they happened to make it to the trenches, then they would have to fight hand-to-hand to take them.  This usually left the attacking force with so few survivors that the enemy in trenches further back could force them back to their original lines.  Most huge battles involved moving the front about 300 meters over a period of 2-3 months.

The great myth of the day was “breakthrough”…That if you just threw enough bodies at the enemy, you’d eventually poke a large enough hole in his lines that your cavalry could get behind his lines and raise hell.  What nobody took into account was that there simply weren’t enough bodies to throw, and that with modern weaponry, even if you did manage a breakthrough, the cavalry would be killed off instantly by just a few troops.  This seems obvious to us now, and was apparently obvious to the troops in the trenches, but both sides were blind, led by generals who refused to stop fighting the Napoleonic wars.

It’s easy to laugh at them, until you look at what we ourselves do.  Take the then-impossible concept of breakthrough (which never happened, even at the end of the war), and instead say “containment” or “pacification”.  Or, for that matter, nation-building…Nonsense words that translate out to “car load lots of dead soldiers & civilians”.  Alphonse Carr was right.

To be continued in this thread.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on June 12, 2012, 03:39:25 pm
I'm pretty sure they had to rely on dogs and carrier pigeons to send for reinforcements, too.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: LMNO on June 12, 2012, 03:54:25 pm
Visions of Hell, indeed.  Urgh.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 12, 2012, 03:55:42 pm
I'm pretty sure they had to rely on dogs and carrier pigeons to send for reinforcements, too.

No, they used runners.  Hitler was one, incidentally, and what he saw made him forbid the first use of gas by Nazi troops...Which meant that gas was pretty much left alone in WWII (with a few exceptions, like Nanking).

Runners had a very, very short life expectancy.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 12, 2012, 04:01:16 pm
Visions of Hell, indeed.  Urgh.

When I was a child, I had plenty of older relatives that had "been through the mill" in WWI.  One of them, my great-great uncle Charles ("Chick") had spent 60 years sleeping in a sitting position, with skin the color of milk...He had, it seems, not gotten to the chemical jug fast enough, and pissed on his face patch (early gas mas, looked like a surgeon's mask) to neutralize the chlorine.  It saved his life, but I don't think he was very happy about it, as the gas still killed him, inch by inch, over 6 decades.

When I had asked these men what it was like, they said they could only remember ice cold mud all over them, lice, and the constant boom of artillery.  Whether they were being straight with me or not, I do not know...But they claimed that it was so miserable that they couldn't remember how bad it was.

Bear in mind that they spend a little more than 3 straight years in those trenches, with maybe a week or two per year in the rear.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on June 12, 2012, 04:18:12 pm
Visions of Hell, indeed.  Urgh.

When I was a child, I had plenty of older relatives that had "been through the mill" in WWI.  One of them, my great-great uncle Charles ("Chick") had spent 60 years sleeping in a sitting position, with skin the color of milk...He had, it seems, not gotten to the chemical jug fast enough, and pissed on his face patch (early gas mas, looked like a surgeon's mask) to neutralize the chlorine.  It saved his life, but I don't think he was very happy about it, as the gas still killed him, inch by inch, over 6 decades.

When I had asked these men what it was like, they said they could only remember ice cold mud all over them, lice, and the constant boom of artillery.  Whether they were being straight with me or not, I do not know...But they claimed that it was so miserable that they couldn't remember how bad it was.

Bear in mind that they spend a little more than 3 straight years in those trenches, with maybe a week or two per year in the rear.

My dad never talked about the trenches much except for a couple of stock stories that he repeated every time it came up.
He showered two or three times a day for the rest of his life, though.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 12, 2012, 04:18:55 pm
Visions of Hell, indeed.  Urgh.

When I was a child, I had plenty of older relatives that had "been through the mill" in WWI.  One of them, my great-great uncle Charles ("Chick") had spent 60 years sleeping in a sitting position, with skin the color of milk...He had, it seems, not gotten to the chemical jug fast enough, and pissed on his face patch (early gas mas, looked like a surgeon's mask) to neutralize the chlorine.  It saved his life, but I don't think he was very happy about it, as the gas still killed him, inch by inch, over 6 decades.

When I had asked these men what it was like, they said they could only remember ice cold mud all over them, lice, and the constant boom of artillery.  Whether they were being straight with me or not, I do not know...But they claimed that it was so miserable that they couldn't remember how bad it was.

Bear in mind that they spend a little more than 3 straight years in those trenches, with maybe a week or two per year in the rear.

My dad never talked about the trenches much except for a couple of stock stories that he repeated every time it came up.
He showered two or three times a day for the rest of his life, though.

Your dad was in WWI?
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on June 12, 2012, 04:20:54 pm
Was just going to edit...WWII. Got about three hours sleep last night.  :x

I don't think I ever heard anybody talk about WWI at all, even though I remember people who served.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 12, 2012, 04:28:42 pm
Was just going to edit...WWII. Got about three hours sleep last night.  :x

I don't think I ever heard anybody talk about WWI at all, even though I remember people who served.

World War II was worse in terms of loss of life and scope, but it wasn't a patch on the actual conditions the soldiers faced in World War I.  My great uncles that were in WWII wouldn't tell me anything until I had joined the military - against their vigorous protests - and then they told me damn near everything they could remember, as I was then part of the "club".

When I got home from Desert Storm, 3 of them and I spent an entire weekend drunk, spinning yarns and telling tales.  It was an interesting experience...They treated me as if I had been of their generation from that point forward.

Years later, back in Illinois, I was at the pub and the owner's dad was in from out of town.  He was a Vietnam vet, and had never really "come home".  I was introduced to him as a veteran, and we got to drinking and talking.  He mentioned, gesturing around with his glass, that nobody around us had any clue as to what goes on in the world.  I replied that this was because we did our job, and that a population ignorant of the horrors of war was a GOOD thing, and also the best commendation a soldier could ever recieve.

I was later told by Eric, the pub's owner, that his father had relaxed after that, for the first time that Eric could ever remember.  I've kind of felt good about that ever since.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: LMNO on June 12, 2012, 04:35:30 pm
I feel the need to say something more than, "that hit home, great post, IAWTC".


So, I'll say "thanks".
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 12, 2012, 04:41:24 pm
I feel the need to say something more than, "that hit home, great post, IAWTC".


So, I'll say "thanks".

For what?

You know what's funny is, back in the lead up to Desert Storm, we all felt 10 feet tall and bullet proof.  Every one of us an Audie Murphy, etc, etc.  When the war actually drew close, it got kind of scary, but we were all he-men, right?

HAW!

Looking back at pictures from the time, we were kids so young I wouldn't hire them at the plant I currently work at.  Little kids with rifles, you know?  Hell, I've got a picture of my son in his dress uniform right next to my monitor, and he's practically an infant.

It occurs to me, though, that you couldn't get me to do that shit now, because I'm old enough to know that there are no great causes1, and that I am in fact not immortal.  That's why we use teenagers to prop up our markets overseas.



1  Going to two wars trade shows will teach you how things really work.  And neither of those wars were ANYTHING on, say, Vietnam...Let alone a rolling atrocity like World War I or II.

Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on June 12, 2012, 04:43:24 pm
I feel the need to say something more than, "that hit home, great post, IAWTC".


So, I'll say "thanks".

There's a lot of great posts on this board but I sat here for a few minutes trying to figure out what to even say about that one. It's awesome.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: LMNO on June 12, 2012, 04:44:02 pm
Thanks for something that had a less-than-horrible ending, and a good point.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on June 12, 2012, 04:47:25 pm
I've read that during the Civil War they had kids as young as thirteen fighting. Supposedly they lied about their age, but...c'mon.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 12, 2012, 04:49:01 pm
I've read that during the Civil War they had kids as young as thirteen fighting. Supposedly they lied about their age, but...c'mon.


There was a very famous case of a 12 year old who managed to enlist in the US Navy during WWII.  He went through some of the heaviest fighting in the pacific before his actual age came out, at which point they hustled him home as fast as they could.

Thing is, 17-19 isn't that old.  It's fucking YOUNG.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on June 12, 2012, 04:54:22 pm
Yes, most of the 17-19 year olds I know look like babies.
When they go over there, they start looking older.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 12, 2012, 04:58:05 pm
Well, thing is, most kids want to join the club.  It's a primate thing.  The ones that do join, and survive, don't want to be in the club anymore, but you can't really leave, because it's part of who you are.  At least for a long time, anyway.

You'll see this at parties.  Veterans tend to group together, if they haven't been home for very long.  Not because they're clannish or because they feel superior, but because they don't feel they belong, and they don't feel they even speak the same language anymore.

This is why organizations like the VFW are so successful.  Even when members get too old to do any serious drinking, they can be around people they can understand.  This is, of course, a trap.  You become a fly in amber, unable to change, still stuck back years or decades, still endlessly obsessed with wherever it was you went, and whatever it was you did.

On the other side of the coin is the American Legion, which consists of people who desperately want everyone to know that they were soldiers and that this fact makes them SPECIAL, and they should somehow get an extra vote.  They also tend to believe that nobody should use the freedoms they think they fought for1, and that everyone in the country should be forced to join the military or at least act like they are in the military.

In short, the VFW is usually joined by people who can't let go of the past, and the American Legion is usually joined by people who think we should have a new war every week.




1  Interesting note:  Every member of the American Legion I have ever met was in a non-combatant role in the military.  And there is no person more patriotic than a rear echelon motherfucker.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Don Coyote on June 12, 2012, 05:11:01 pm
Sheeet, I was 23 when I joined and I looked like a fucking baby in the pictures from basic.
Also, I think I really really need to visit the local American Legion and VFW. I need to make old men pissed at my generation for thinking.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on June 12, 2012, 05:12:50 pm
Something I've noticed, and maybe it's not the case everywhere, but Legion halls tend to be pretty big. VFW places are dinky in comparison.  :x
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: N E T on June 12, 2012, 05:14:45 pm
Now I need to look up American Legion and cross reference it with Mall Ninja.

This thread is causing me to remember one of the best books I've ever read titled, "Hell, Healing, and Resistance: Veterans Speak", and I think I should reread it.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 12, 2012, 05:29:24 pm
Sheeet, I was 23 when I joined and I looked like a fucking baby in the pictures from basic.
Also, I think I really really need to visit the local American Legion and VFW. I need to make old men pissed at my generation for thinking.

Trolling the American Legion is a moral imperative.

The VFW?  Not so much.  They're basically the walking wounded.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 12, 2012, 05:33:29 pm
Something I've noticed, and maybe it's not the case everywhere, but Legion halls tend to be pretty big. VFW places are dinky in comparison.  :x

This is because any veteran who served during time of war may join the American Legion, while only actual war veterans are eligible to join the VFW.

The American Legion has a bit of a history.  They are immensely conservative, and not above cracking heads to make people fit their definition of "real Americans".  For example, the Centralia Massacre:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legion

Quote
November 11, 1919, the first anniversary of Armistice Day and the occasion of the American Legion's formal launch at its Minneapolis Founding Convention, was also a historical moment of violence and controversy. On that day a parade of Legionnaires took place in the mill town of Centralia, located in Southwestern Washington.[43]

Plans were made by some of the marchers at the conclusion of their patriotic demonstration to storm and ransack the local hall maintained by the Industrial Workers of the World, a radical labor union which had been the target of multiple arrests, large trials, and various incidents of mob violence nationally during the months of American participation in World War I.[43] Plans for this less-than-spontaneous act of violence had made their way to the ears of the Wobblies, however, and 30 or 40 IWW members had been seen coming and going at their hall on the day of the march — some of whom were observed carrying guns.[43]

At 2 pm the march began at the city park, led by a marching band playing "Over There."[44] Marchers included Boy Scouts, members of the local Elks Lodge, active-duty sailors and Marines, with about 80 members of the newly established Centralia and Chehalis American Legion posts bringing up the rear.[44] As the parade turned onto Tower Avenue and crossed Second Street, it passed IWW Hall on its left.[44] The parade stopped and Legionnaires surrounded the hall.[44]

Parade Marshall Adrian Cormier rode up on horseback and, according to some witnesses, blew a whistle giving the signal to the Legionnaires to charge the IWW headquarters building.[44] A group of marchers rushed the hall, smashing the front plate glass window and attempting to kick in the door.[44] Just as the door gave way, shots were fired from within at the intruders.[44] This provided the signal to other armed IWW members, who were stationed across the street to set up a crossfire against potential invaders and they also began firing on the Legionnaires.[45] In less than a minute the firing was over, with three AL members left dead or dying and others wounded.[46]

Taken by surprise by the armed defense of IWW headquarters, many Legionnaires rushed home to arm themselves, while others broke into local hardware stores to steal guns and ammunition.[46] Now armed, a furious mob reassembled and charged the IWW Hall again, capturing six IWW members inside.[46] The mob proceeded to destroy the front porch of the hall and a large bonfire was built, upon which were torched the local Wobblies' official records, books, newspapers, and mattresses.[46]

One local Wobbly named Wesley Everest escaped through a back door when he saw the mob approaching the hall.[46] He fled into nearby woods, exchanging gunshots with his pursuers.[46] One of those chasing the fleeing IWW man was hit in the chest several times with bullets and was killed, running the death count of Legionnaires to four.[46] Everest was taken alive, kicked and beaten, and a belt wrapped around his neck as he was dragged back to the town to be lynched.[46] Local police intervened, however, and Everest was taken to jail, where he was thrown down on the concrete floor.[46]

Legionnaires formed armed vigilante groups and began raiding local pool halls and checking those present IWW membership cards.[47] Another group assembled at the local Elks Hall and met for two hours, discussing what was to be done.[47]

At 7:30 pm, on cue, all city lights in town went out for 15 minutes and Legionnaires stopped cars and forced them to turn out their headlights.[47] The Elks Hall gathering entered the jail without meeting resistance and took Wesley Everest, dragging him away to a waiting car but leaving other incarcerated Wobblies in jail cells unhindered.[48] A procession of six cars drove west to a railroad bridge across the Chehalis River.[49]

A rope was attached to Everest's neck and he was pushed off the bridge, but the lynching attempt was bungled and Everest's neck was not snapped by the fall.[49] Everest was hauled up again, a longer rope was substituted, and Everest was pushed off the bridge again.[49] The lynch mob then shined their car headlights on the hanging form of Everest and shot him for good measure.[49]

Although a mob milled around the jail all night, terrorizing the occupants, no further acts of extra-legal retribution were taken.[49] Everest's body was cut down the next morning, falling into the riverbed below, where it remained all day.[50] As night fell Everest's body was hauled back to town, the rope still around his neck, where it was refused by local undertakers and left on the floor of the jail in sight of the prisoners all night.[50] No charges were ever filed in connection with the lynching.[51]

Twelve IWW members were ultimately indicted by a grand jury for first degree murder in connection with the killing of the four Legionnaires and a local left wing lawyer was charged as an accessory to the crime.[52] A January 1920 trial resulted in the conviction of six defendants on charges of second degree murder.[53]



Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 12, 2012, 05:35:28 pm
Needless to say, the Elks are scum, too...As are the Rotarians.

The Moose Lodge, on the other hand, they do good work.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 12, 2012, 05:37:56 pm
From the same link:

Quote
In 1923, American Legion Commander Alvin Owsley cited Italian Fascism as a model for defending the nation against the forces of the left.[55] Owsley said:

If ever needed, the American Legion stands ready to protect our country's institutions and ideals as the Fascisti dealt with the destructionists who menaced Italy!... The American Legion is fighting every element that threatens our democratic government — Soviets, anarchists, IWW, revolutionary socialists and every other red.... Do not forget that the Fascisti are to Italy what the American Legion is to the United States.[56]

The Legion invited Mussolini to speak at its convention as late as 1930.[56]
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on June 12, 2012, 05:42:02 pm
Something I've noticed, and maybe it's not the case everywhere, but Legion halls tend to be pretty big. VFW places are dinky in comparison.  :x

This is because any veteran who served during time of war may join the American Legion, while only actual war veterans are eligible to join the VFW.

The American Legion has a bit of a history.  They are immensely conservative, and not above cracking heads to make people fit their definition of "real Americans".  For example, the Centralia Massacre:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Legion

Quote
November 11, 1919, the first anniversary of Armistice Day and the occasion of the American Legion's formal launch at its Minneapolis Founding Convention, was also a historical moment of violence and controversy. On that day a parade of Legionnaires took place in the mill town of Centralia, located in Southwestern Washington.[43]

Plans were made by some of the marchers at the conclusion of their patriotic demonstration to storm and ransack the local hall maintained by the Industrial Workers of the World, a radical labor union which had been the target of multiple arrests, large trials, and various incidents of mob violence nationally during the months of American participation in World War I.[43] Plans for this less-than-spontaneous act of violence had made their way to the ears of the Wobblies, however, and 30 or 40 IWW members had been seen coming and going at their hall on the day of the march — some of whom were observed carrying guns.[43]

At 2 pm the march began at the city park, led by a marching band playing "Over There."[44] Marchers included Boy Scouts, members of the local Elks Lodge, active-duty sailors and Marines, with about 80 members of the newly established Centralia and Chehalis American Legion posts bringing up the rear.[44] As the parade turned onto Tower Avenue and crossed Second Street, it passed IWW Hall on its left.[44] The parade stopped and Legionnaires surrounded the hall.[44]

Parade Marshall Adrian Cormier rode up on horseback and, according to some witnesses, blew a whistle giving the signal to the Legionnaires to charge the IWW headquarters building.[44] A group of marchers rushed the hall, smashing the front plate glass window and attempting to kick in the door.[44] Just as the door gave way, shots were fired from within at the intruders.[44] This provided the signal to other armed IWW members, who were stationed across the street to set up a crossfire against potential invaders and they also began firing on the Legionnaires.[45] In less than a minute the firing was over, with three AL members left dead or dying and others wounded.[46]

Taken by surprise by the armed defense of IWW headquarters, many Legionnaires rushed home to arm themselves, while others broke into local hardware stores to steal guns and ammunition.[46] Now armed, a furious mob reassembled and charged the IWW Hall again, capturing six IWW members inside.[46] The mob proceeded to destroy the front porch of the hall and a large bonfire was built, upon which were torched the local Wobblies' official records, books, newspapers, and mattresses.[46]

One local Wobbly named Wesley Everest escaped through a back door when he saw the mob approaching the hall.[46] He fled into nearby woods, exchanging gunshots with his pursuers.[46] One of those chasing the fleeing IWW man was hit in the chest several times with bullets and was killed, running the death count of Legionnaires to four.[46] Everest was taken alive, kicked and beaten, and a belt wrapped around his neck as he was dragged back to the town to be lynched.[46] Local police intervened, however, and Everest was taken to jail, where he was thrown down on the concrete floor.[46]

Legionnaires formed armed vigilante groups and began raiding local pool halls and checking those present IWW membership cards.[47] Another group assembled at the local Elks Hall and met for two hours, discussing what was to be done.[47]

At 7:30 pm, on cue, all city lights in town went out for 15 minutes and Legionnaires stopped cars and forced them to turn out their headlights.[47] The Elks Hall gathering entered the jail without meeting resistance and took Wesley Everest, dragging him away to a waiting car but leaving other incarcerated Wobblies in jail cells unhindered.[48] A procession of six cars drove west to a railroad bridge across the Chehalis River.[49]

A rope was attached to Everest's neck and he was pushed off the bridge, but the lynching attempt was bungled and Everest's neck was not snapped by the fall.[49] Everest was hauled up again, a longer rope was substituted, and Everest was pushed off the bridge again.[49] The lynch mob then shined their car headlights on the hanging form of Everest and shot him for good measure.[49]

Although a mob milled around the jail all night, terrorizing the occupants, no further acts of extra-legal retribution were taken.[49] Everest's body was cut down the next morning, falling into the riverbed below, where it remained all day.[50] As night fell Everest's body was hauled back to town, the rope still around his neck, where it was refused by local undertakers and left on the floor of the jail in sight of the prisoners all night.[50] No charges were ever filed in connection with the lynching.[51]

Twelve IWW members were ultimately indicted by a grand jury for first degree murder in connection with the killing of the four Legionnaires and a local left wing lawyer was charged as an accessory to the crime.[52] A January 1920 trial resulted in the conviction of six defendants on charges of second degree murder.[53]

The FUCK.  :x

From the same link:

Quote
In 1923, American Legion Commander Alvin Owsley cited Italian Fascism as a model for defending the nation against the forces of the left.[55] Owsley said:

If ever needed, the American Legion stands ready to protect our country's institutions and ideals as the Fascisti dealt with the destructionists who menaced Italy!... The American Legion is fighting every element that threatens our democratic government — Soviets, anarchists, IWW, revolutionary socialists and every other red.... Do not forget that the Fascisti are to Italy what the American Legion is to the United States.[56]

The Legion invited Mussolini to speak at its convention as late as 1930.[56]

That pretty much says it all.

Now I want to troll them.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: LMNO on June 12, 2012, 05:44:29 pm
LAND OF FREE!  HOME OF BRAVE!
                     /
 :teabagger1:
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 12, 2012, 05:48:04 pm
LAND OF FREE!  HOME OF BRAVE!
                     /
 :teabagger1:

Like I've said, there's nothing new about teabaggerism.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on June 12, 2012, 05:49:01 pm
LAND OF FREE!  HOME OF BRAVE!
                     /
 :teabagger1:

I never noticed until now, but the woman with the sunglasses almost has her hand wrapped around her own throat.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: East Coast Hustle on June 12, 2012, 08:10:23 pm
I gotta admit, all the American Legion members I know are pretty cool and mostly just use it as an excuse to hang out in a private clubhouse drinking beer and watching football. They keep bugging me to join as an auxiliary member. Of course, all the AL members I know are members of the post at AUTEC in the Bahamas so I'm guessing they're not representative of the organization at large.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 12, 2012, 09:53:50 pm
This thread is excellent!
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 12, 2012, 09:55:44 pm
This thread is excellent!

I've been having a lot of fun with it.  It never fails to amaze me that collectively speaking, we never learn a damn thing.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on June 12, 2012, 09:59:49 pm
This thread is excellent!

I've been having a lot of fun with it.  It never fails to amaze me that collectively speaking, we never learn a damn thing.

I used to have a quote about people forgetting history and being doomed to repeat it, but I wore the fucker out. It never worked, anyway.  :x
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 12, 2012, 10:00:44 pm
This thread is excellent!

I've been having a lot of fun with it.  It never fails to amaze me that collectively speaking, we never learn a damn thing.

I used to have a quote about people forgetting history and being doomed to repeat it, but I wore the fucker out. It never worked, anyway.  :x

Alphonse Carr had a better one.

Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Tiddleywomp Cockletit on June 12, 2012, 10:04:39 pm
This thread is excellent!

I've been having a lot of fun with it.  It never fails to amaze me that collectively speaking, we never learn a damn thing.

I used to have a quote about people forgetting history and being doomed to repeat it, but I wore the fucker out. It never worked, anyway.  :x

Alphonse Carr had a better one.

Just googled.

So HE'S the one who came up with that one.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 13, 2012, 12:15:17 am
This thread is excellent!

I've been having a lot of fun with it.  It never fails to amaze me that collectively speaking, we never learn a damn thing.

It's sad, but true. And as soon as anyone seems to be getting a pretty decent handle on things, someone else goes "HEY, LET'S INVADE THOSE GUYS AND TAKE ALL THEIR STUFF". Through this process, cultures which have learned better are endlessly getting wiped out by ones which haven't.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on June 13, 2012, 12:18:05 am
This thread is excellent!

I've been having a lot of fun with it.  It never fails to amaze me that collectively speaking, we never learn a damn thing.

It's sad, but true. And as soon as anyone seems to be getting a pretty decent handle on things, someone else goes "HEY, LET'S INVADE THOSE GUYS AND TAKE ALL THEIR STUFF". Through this process, cultures which have learned better are endlessly getting wiped out by ones which haven't.

It's not so much that, as "Everything's great, so let's invent problems until we're too frantic to think."

There was NO rational reason for World War I.

There is NO rational reason for the state of the economy OR the weird feeling of impulsive nationalism that is sweeping the world right now.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on June 13, 2012, 12:56:11 am
This thread is excellent!

I've been having a lot of fun with it.  It never fails to amaze me that collectively speaking, we never learn a damn thing.

It's sad, but true. And as soon as anyone seems to be getting a pretty decent handle on things, someone else goes "HEY, LET'S INVADE THOSE GUYS AND TAKE ALL THEIR STUFF". Through this process, cultures which have learned better are endlessly getting wiped out by ones which haven't.

It's not so much that, as "Everything's great, so let's invent problems until we're too frantic to think."

There was NO rational reason for World War I.

There is NO rational reason for the state of the economy OR the weird feeling of impulsive nationalism that is sweeping the world right now.

1. The economy itself is irrational.

2. Sure there's a reason for impulsive nationalism. It masks the panic.
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: Richter on June 14, 2012, 01:13:13 am
I've heard it said that the point of learning history is to avoid the mistakes of the past.  Based on the conduct of people, I am certain my teachers were, in that regard, full of it.  In that regard, I also doubt that any member of the human race on this planet actually values peace in any significant way. One psychology professor pointed out how a large scale military action correlates with the percentage of young men to old in a county too.  Right on the heels of being taught that correlation is not causation, of course.

There is no effectively observed timetable for how long it takes humanity to "learn" something.  Even if we define learning as 50% demonstration of a skill or concept, we still fail in regards to anything a history book will tell us we should have "learned" from warfare.  As a species we have the collective attitude towards armed conflict of a Khornate berserker crossed with a 10 year old naive pop star.  Our case is different, our case is RIGHT, and under it all that nagging thought that if we aren't spilling blood over THE CAUSE, then it just must not have and validity.

On a more personal level, it's an attractive thing, being a veteran.  I didn't pick the military as a career option.  Would I go if called?  That's a question that only people who have faced that reality have the right to answer. 

Dad's condensed version of warfare, best case scenario:  You come home, some of your buddies don't.  Even if you're not involved, don't vote for it, or don't support it, when it gets big enough that becomes everyone's reality. 
Title: Re: Future? What future? It's 1912, For Fuck's Sake.
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on January 12, 2017, 04:13:28 am
This future is a feeble thing, with no foundation to speak of.  All the important shit that's happened in the past is forgotten or twisted so far out of true that it fades from history into legend, and then into myth.  We are all taught that the constitution was written by plaster saints (or, more recently, by inhuman monsters).  More recently, we've forgotten the things that got us THEN in the same sort of trouble we're in NOW.

And I'm not just talking about bank failures, etc.  I'm also talking about badass motherfuckers like Frank Luke and Albert Ball, Alvin York and Manfred Albrecht Freiherr von Richthofen (Richter's great-grand-daddy, who shot some people down or something).  It is not quite a hundred years since The Great War began, and nobody knows a fucking thing about it. 

This is kind of unfortunate, because the fallout from this round of nasty little wars may very well have the same effects as the fallout from WWI had, in terms of society and economy.

It's also unfortunate simply because it's a damn shame to forget about people like that.  Sure, the war was senseless and really only happened because everyone thought they were due for a war, that there was some sort of obligation to King & country to have a war once a generation.  This may be stupid, but it doesn't reflect on the acts of the men who had to fight in horribly muddy trenches, or duel each other in "stringbags" and "crates" with shitty engines and no parachutes.

They learned then, as we have to relearn today - and I think Cain will agree with me on this - that when you put a rifle in a man's hand, you create a policy-maker.  And that man will do whatever it takes to stay alive, when you put him out on the sharp end.  This will cause him to act in ways that normal people would consider barbaric and insane.  And if the implications of those three facts taken together bother you, the proper time to address those concerns is before you call that man out of the barracks.

To be continued, in this thread.

This thread is what I was talking about.