Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Aneristic Illusions => Topic started by: Cain on September 28, 2012, 08:09:51 am

Title: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: Cain on September 28, 2012, 08:09:51 am
You may remember this:

http://www.hondurasnews.com/honduras-approves-private-cities-project/

Quote
Honduras signed a deal for an initial investment of 15 million dollars to create the first “Private City” in the country. (Also referred to as “Free Cities”, “Charter Cities”, “Model Cities”, or in Spanish, “RED – Regiones Especiales de Desarollo”, and “Ciudades Modelo”.) The city will be built in Trujillo, in the Department of Colón, where it does not have the full support of the Garifuna people, as they fear that the loss of their land may be on the agenda.

Carlos Pineda, the president of Coalinza, stated that this was not just an agreement, but the most important project for the development of the country in 50 years.

Michael Strong, an executive with the MKG Group that was granted this project, stated that the objective is to create a secure and prosperous community for Hondurans.

The development of the physical infrastructure laid out in phase one of the project will result in 5,000 new jobs, as well as 15,000 indirect new jobs.

Juan Hernández, the President of the Honduran National Congress, stated that this is a giant step forward for the country. Last July, the Honduras Congress passed Decree #123-2011, which in a nutshell, takes care of all constitutional issues related to the creation of these RED zones, or model cities, as we refer to them in Honduras.

Well...a lawyer who was preparing a motion declaring such cities as unconstitutional and claimed they were being used to raise campaign funds for politicians has just been assassinated.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20120924/honduras-lawyer-killed/

Now, as the article points out, Cabrera had more than a few enemies, including the powerful Miguel Farcusse, owner of the Dinant Corporation.  He helped workers seize 5000 hectares of land from them last year.  Cabrera has previously said if he is ever to be murdered, Facusse would be the one responsible.

However, there is also this:

Quote
Trejo had also helped prepare motions declaring unconstitutional a proposal by the Honduran government and a U.S. company, MGK Group, to build three privately run cities with their own police, laws and tax systems.

Just hours before his murder, Trejo had participated in a televised debate in which he accused congressional leaders of using the private city projects to raise campaign funds.

MGK director Michael Strong said the company is “horrified” by Trejo’s killing.

“We believe that Antonio Trejo, had he lived long enough to get to know us, would have concluded that our approach is 100 percent beneficial to Honduras and Hondurans. We are saddened for his family and understand what a tragedy this is for trust and goodwill in Honduras,” Strong said in a statement to The Associated Press.

It's worth noting, whoever had him killed, that whatever native companies can get away with foreign businessmen are usually much, much worse.  And if the political/slush-fund aspect is true....well, people have killed over such things before.
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on September 28, 2012, 11:01:53 am
I missed this the first time around actually.

The timing is pretty interesting.
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: Lenin McCarthy on September 28, 2012, 12:47:46 pm
So much for the non-aggression principle, then.
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 03:07:36 pm
This is all going to end in madness and horror.

End result:  Less libertarians.
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: Elder Iptuous on September 28, 2012, 04:20:09 pm
It was my understanding that these were going to be more of a semiautonomous citystate like singapore, rather than a 'libertarian utopia'?
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 04:46:46 pm
It was my understanding that these were going to be more of a semiautonomous citystate like singapore, rather than a 'libertarian utopia'?

Doesn't matter.  There's no resource base to speak of, plus "the Amazon effect".  It's going to be a litany of horror.
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on September 28, 2012, 04:53:58 pm
Amazon effect?
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 04:57:27 pm
Amazon effect?

Jungles and severe tropical environments eat industrial equipment like nachos.
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on September 28, 2012, 05:15:34 pm
Ah. Like new england except accelerated exponentially and with risk of malaria to boot.
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: Elder Iptuous on September 28, 2012, 06:16:12 pm
i thought Singapore was built in the rainforest?
when you say no resource base, are you talking about natural resources, or infrastructure in place?

i've got no position on this because i know next to nothing about Honduras, but i am fond of the city state model, and would love to see it succeed.
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 06:23:28 pm
i thought Singapore was built in the rainforest?
when you say no resource base, are you talking about natural resources, or infrastructure in place?

i've got no position on this because i know next to nothing about Honduras, but i am fond of the city state model, and would love to see it succeed.

Yeah, it worked out so well for the Greeks, right?
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: Nephew Twiddleton on September 28, 2012, 06:29:40 pm
Didnt work well for a fledgling united states either and that was bigger than city states.
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 07:09:13 pm
It's not just that.  It's people running out into the jungle to build their utopia.  And we know what those are built on.  I'm not saying it should be stopped.  Freedom also includes the freedom to get killed in stupid ways.

Here's the problems I see:

1.  They will be at the mercy of the Honduran government, which may very well decide to nationalize the cities upon completion.  The cities will be completely helpless to prevent this.

2.  Environmental/resource issues as above.  Singapore's island chain geography and its extremely high value as a port make it feasible and worthwhile.  Nothing in Honduras mitigates these two problems.

3.  Given that they're libertarian, they won't have much use for taxation.  That means no police - or worse, pay police - meaning lawlessness.  This will get bad enough that they'll swing the other way, and go to a "temporary, emergency" police state.  It won't work.  End result:  City ruled by gangs, withers away, becomes the next Amazonia.

4.  Given that humans are social creatures, the conflict between the hard-core free market tards and the people who want some semblance of civilization will mean guaranteed factionalization, leading to ineffective means of dealing with problems as they arise.

Most importantly:

5.  The whole thing is fucking retarded.
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: Verbal Mike on September 28, 2012, 07:19:40 pm
I actually hope they build them, and it goes belly up in exactly the ways you describe, Roger. It will prove some important points, for sure.
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on September 28, 2012, 07:19:52 pm
This is going to be spectacularly ugly and involve an incredible amount of exploitation of impoverished natives. As usual.
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: Cain on September 28, 2012, 07:22:19 pm
Singapore has many advantages over Honduras, not least:

Location
Political stability
Education

Lets not forget, Honduras underwent a military coup only three years ago, and journalists still occasionally turn up dead when their reporting hits on sensitive issues (as do lawyers, as it turns out).  That alone is going to make investors nervous, since military coups tend not to be very respective of property rights and in country profits.  And frequently, neither are the revolutions that inevitably depose them.
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 07:24:12 pm
This is going to be spectacularly ugly and involve an incredible amount of exploitation of impoverished natives. As usual.

Not to mention the destruction of a few hundred thousand acres of (what is now) protected rainforest and wetlands.

Where I see the main friction is IF the tards actually get an economy going, the locals will flood the labor market.  The tards won't be able to do anything about it because, you know, free market. 

Locals get used as defacto slaves, settlers are out of work, hilarity ensues.
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 07:44:50 pm
Singapore has many advantages over Honduras, not least:

Location
Political stability
Education

Lets not forget, Honduras underwent a military coup only three years ago, and journalists still occasionally turn up dead when their reporting hits on sensitive issues (as do lawyers, as it turns out).  That alone is going to make investors nervous, since military coups tend not to be very respective of property rights and in country profits.  And frequently, neither are the revolutions that inevitably depose them.

And that's what will happen, if the current government doesn't fuck 'em first.
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on September 28, 2012, 09:35:53 pm
This is going to be spectacularly ugly and involve an incredible amount of exploitation of impoverished natives. As usual.

Not to mention the destruction of a few hundred thousand acres of (what is now) protected rainforest and wetlands.

Where I see the main friction is IF the tards actually get an economy going, the locals will flood the labor market.  The tards won't be able to do anything about it because, you know, free market. 

Locals get used as defacto slaves, settlers are out of work, hilarity ensues.

Yeah, the most likely and predictable outcome is that their economies will collapse and they'll need to be bailed out, and Honduras will bail them out in exchange for annexing.

That's the best case scenario. Worst case scenario occurs if someone else bails them out.
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 09:40:38 pm
This is going to be spectacularly ugly and involve an incredible amount of exploitation of impoverished natives. As usual.

Not to mention the destruction of a few hundred thousand acres of (what is now) protected rainforest and wetlands.

Where I see the main friction is IF the tards actually get an economy going, the locals will flood the labor market.  The tards won't be able to do anything about it because, you know, free market. 

Locals get used as defacto slaves, settlers are out of work, hilarity ensues.

Yeah, the most likely and predictable outcome is that their economies will collapse and they'll need to be bailed out, and Honduras will bail them out in exchange for annexing.

That's the best case scenario. Worst case scenario occurs if someone else bails them out.

Worst case scenario is that nobody bails them out.

After all, "behavior sinks" are caused by population modified by isolated circumstances and available resources.

I see them descending to the level of beasts within 36 months.
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on September 28, 2012, 09:50:36 pm
This is going to be spectacularly ugly and involve an incredible amount of exploitation of impoverished natives. As usual.

Not to mention the destruction of a few hundred thousand acres of (what is now) protected rainforest and wetlands.

Where I see the main friction is IF the tards actually get an economy going, the locals will flood the labor market.  The tards won't be able to do anything about it because, you know, free market. 

Locals get used as defacto slaves, settlers are out of work, hilarity ensues.

Yeah, the most likely and predictable outcome is that their economies will collapse and they'll need to be bailed out, and Honduras will bail them out in exchange for annexing.

That's the best case scenario. Worst case scenario occurs if someone else bails them out.

Worst case scenario is that nobody bails them out.

After all, "behavior sinks" are caused by population modified by isolated circumstances and available resources.

I see them descending to the level of beasts within 36 months.

Whoa now

You and I have different working definitions of "worst", I think.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 09:53:16 pm
This is going to be spectacularly ugly and involve an incredible amount of exploitation of impoverished natives. As usual.

Not to mention the destruction of a few hundred thousand acres of (what is now) protected rainforest and wetlands.

Where I see the main friction is IF the tards actually get an economy going, the locals will flood the labor market.  The tards won't be able to do anything about it because, you know, free market. 

Locals get used as defacto slaves, settlers are out of work, hilarity ensues.

Yeah, the most likely and predictable outcome is that their economies will collapse and they'll need to be bailed out, and Honduras will bail them out in exchange for annexing.

That's the best case scenario. Worst case scenario occurs if someone else bails them out.

Worst case scenario is that nobody bails them out.

After all, "behavior sinks" are caused by population modified by isolated circumstances and available resources.

I see them descending to the level of beasts within 36 months.

Whoa now

You and I have different working definitions of "worst", I think.  :lulz:

I'm operating under the impression that at least some of these assholes will be bringing children with them.

BUT WAIT!  They're LIBERTARIANS, and thus doomed as far as breeding goes.  Never mind, carry on.
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on September 28, 2012, 10:00:43 pm
This is going to be spectacularly ugly and involve an incredible amount of exploitation of impoverished natives. As usual.

Not to mention the destruction of a few hundred thousand acres of (what is now) protected rainforest and wetlands.

Where I see the main friction is IF the tards actually get an economy going, the locals will flood the labor market.  The tards won't be able to do anything about it because, you know, free market. 

Locals get used as defacto slaves, settlers are out of work, hilarity ensues.

Yeah, the most likely and predictable outcome is that their economies will collapse and they'll need to be bailed out, and Honduras will bail them out in exchange for annexing.

That's the best case scenario. Worst case scenario occurs if someone else bails them out.

Worst case scenario is that nobody bails them out.

After all, "behavior sinks" are caused by population modified by isolated circumstances and available resources.

I see them descending to the level of beasts within 36 months.

Whoa now

You and I have different working definitions of "worst", I think.  :lulz:

I'm operating under the impression that at least some of these assholes will be bringing children with them.

BUT WAIT!  They're LIBERTARIANS, and thus doomed as far as breeding goes.  Never mind, carry on.

 Yep. :lulz:

If they self-destruct, the bright side is that they're freeing the world of some Libertarians.

On the other hand, in my prediction of a worst-case scenario, some other country that is not Honduras bails them out and then de facto owns the cities.

Honduras is unlikely to take that well.
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on September 28, 2012, 10:12:30 pm
This is going to be spectacularly ugly and involve an incredible amount of exploitation of impoverished natives. As usual.

Not to mention the destruction of a few hundred thousand acres of (what is now) protected rainforest and wetlands.

Where I see the main friction is IF the tards actually get an economy going, the locals will flood the labor market.  The tards won't be able to do anything about it because, you know, free market. 

Locals get used as defacto slaves, settlers are out of work, hilarity ensues.

Yeah, the most likely and predictable outcome is that their economies will collapse and they'll need to be bailed out, and Honduras will bail them out in exchange for annexing.

That's the best case scenario. Worst case scenario occurs if someone else bails them out.

Worst case scenario is that nobody bails them out.

After all, "behavior sinks" are caused by population modified by isolated circumstances and available resources.

I see them descending to the level of beasts within 36 months.

Whoa now

You and I have different working definitions of "worst", I think.  :lulz:

I'm operating under the impression that at least some of these assholes will be bringing children with them.

BUT WAIT!  They're LIBERTARIANS, and thus doomed as far as breeding goes.  Never mind, carry on.

 Yep. :lulz:

If they self-destruct, the bright side is that they're freeing the world of some Libertarians.

On the other hand, in my prediction of a worst-case scenario, some other country that is not Honduras bails them out and then de facto owns the cities.

Honduras is unlikely to take that well.

Honduras is also powerless to do anything about it.

Other bright side:  No other nation will ever allow this to happen again.
Title: Re: Private Libertarian cities in Honduras not so funny anymore
Post by: Anna Mae Bollocks on September 29, 2012, 02:12:02 am
It's not just that.  It's people running out into the jungle to build their utopia.  And we know what those are built on.  I'm not saying it should be stopped.  Freedom also includes the freedom to get killed in stupid ways.

Here's the problems I see:

1.  They will be at the mercy of the Honduran government, which may very well decide to nationalize the cities upon completion.  The cities will be completely helpless to prevent this.

2.  Environmental/resource issues as above.  Singapore's island chain geography and its extremely high value as a port make it feasible and worthwhile.  Nothing in Honduras mitigates these two problems.

3.  Given that they're libertarian, they won't have much use for taxation.  That means no police - or worse, pay police - meaning lawlessness.  This will get bad enough that they'll swing the other way, and go to a "temporary, emergency" police state.  It won't work.  End result:  City ruled by gangs, withers away, becomes the next Amazonia.

4.  Given that humans are social creatures, the conflict between the hard-core free market tards and the people who want some semblance of civilization will mean guaranteed factionalization, leading to ineffective means of dealing with problems as they arise.

Most importantly:

5.  The whole thing is fucking retarded.

Furthermore, it's a bunch of libertards living in a place called "the Department of Colon".