Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Apple Talk => Topic started by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 31, 2015, 08:23:24 pm

Title: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 31, 2015, 08:23:24 pm
I am eyeballing a refurbished Macbook Pro, and mentioned it casually in a chat I'm in with a bunch of my friends. One friend, who is a delightful and lovely human being, is also terrible about mansplaining allll the time, and immediately after I posted the link to the computer in the chat, he started mansplaining to me about Macbooks, (incorrectly) answering questions I never asked. I know he is a well-meaning, warm, considerate person, but he does this, seemingly compulsively, even with subjects he knows I know far more about than he does.

He's not at all an exception; in my experience, the majority of men do this, and it seems almost reflexive. Not too long ago, I was on the phone with a guy who, when I mentioned that my car is on the fritz again, started mansplaining through a troubleshooting process despite the fact that I had already said that it was an old familiar problem on an old familiar car - one which I have dealt with before.

What I am wondering is what drives this? Is it driven by a deep-seated desire to help? Is it an ego thing? An authority issue? Women occasionally do it too, usually older women, but it's definitely far far more of a man thing.

If anyone here has ever caught themselves mansplaining or is aware that they do it, how would you describe the motivation for explaining something to someone who hasn't asked or otherwise indicated in any way  that they need an explanation?
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 31, 2015, 08:25:16 pm
Also, a related question: should I tell my friend that he does this? Should I just be "you're mansplaining, friend, FYI"?
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Sung Low on December 31, 2015, 09:48:19 pm
I catch myself doing this sometimes, but it seems to be irregardless of the gender of the person I'm talking to. More that if a topic comes up that I believe I have some knowledge about I get this urge to proudly display it in front people, regardless of whether they've asked or not.

This usually leads to me self reflecting minutes or hours later and realising I was talking out of my arse.

Is it maybe an ingrained dominance thing? Physicality isn't enough now in this enlightened age? The intellectual equivalent of pushing it too hard at the gym to impress people, only to throw your back out in the process.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: LMNO on December 31, 2015, 09:54:29 pm
I'm TERRIBLE with this. It's a constant struggle. I'd like to say it's because my dad was a physics professor who enjoyed lecturing, but it's a weak excuse (because he mostly lectured about things he actually knew, and other people really didn't know).

The urge, for me, is to share information, and try to help. At least, that's the "reasoning". There's a lot of bullshit in that. I'm thinking there's a lot of SGitR going on, and the "impress people" dominance position.

My main problem these days is my delivery. I've worked on making sure I don't talk shit about things of which I know nothing, but when I'm talking from a place of knowledge, I can sound WAY condescending. I'm not sure how I do it yet, or how to stop it, but I've found that e-prime seems to help. Really. When I make something about a personal experience rather than a generalized Truthiness, it goes over better.

I'd like to keep talking about this.

Bless my wife, who has not only put up with it, but who has also helped me realize when I'm doing it, with a minimum of violence towards me.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Pergamos on December 31, 2015, 10:25:30 pm
I do this, so does my sister she's the only woman I know who does.  It feels like it comes from two places for me, one is the urge to be helpful, the other is the urge to have people pay attention to me.  I tend to do it more to women because they tend to be more polite about listening to me.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 12:52:54 am
Thanks for your candor with this, guys... my first impulse was to be irritated and blame The Patriarchy™, but then I realized that it's one of those things that everyone experiences but nobody seems to ask questions about.

Those of you who do find yourselves doing it, how do you feel about it when others mansplain to you? Does it bother you? Do you even notice it, or does it just seem like normal communication?
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Pergamos on January 01, 2016, 12:59:39 am
When it's someone talking about something I know better than they do it tends to amuse me.  Sometimes I can manage to laugh at myself in the same sort of situation and realize I am being a know it all.  The only time someone pretending to know more than they actually do bothers me is if I act on their advice and it turns out it was wrong.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Zenpatista on January 01, 2016, 01:08:00 am
I'm also guilty of this. Also reading the SGitR posts has been useful & eye opening. I've been trying to control it. If it wasn't for my wife & daughter I'd probably be much worse. I am glad they told me although it stung. "Sometimes, it's OK to be sympathetic", was what the daughter said. I was probably telling her how to run her life at the time.

I think it started with parents & teaching. I am old enough that I had the "lecture at" sort of teachers and my dad is definitely of that sort. However, I know plenty of people my age who don't 'splain like me so something else is involved in my case. In academia, I find a few of the grad students hang on my words (as if I know what I'm talking about). I try to be careful about when I'm brainstorming or BS-ing scientifically or at least provide a pointer to a reference for my source of info. I also agree that there's some sort of dominance thing going on. Lastly, I find myself doing this when I am unable to make regular conversation - especially with students or when we're waiting for some equipment to warm up or equilibrate. I'll just natter on an on in a lecturing sort of way. I'm trying to ask more questions and/or be comfortable with the silence but it's a tricky habit for me.

I usually find it amusing when I get the mansplaining. It's taught me to file such explanations under "maybe / to be reviewed later". However, if it's something I disagree with, and I can't get a word in edgewise, or I think they're working with faulty starting principles, I can get angry and impatient. I usually just change the subject or move on to some other task then. Again - that's what I do - probably not what I should do.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on January 01, 2016, 02:04:39 am
I find myself doing this as well, and i think it has to do with the way men socialize as opposed to women. if a women brings up a subject to other women, the social assumption seems to be for the other woman to listen attentively. Whereas when a man brings up a topic to another man, the assumption tends to be that the issue is a "problem" that needs to be "solved". I remember hearing about this in a communications class once, but it has to do with the different genders having different social "languages". The pofessor also said that the kinds of things men and women value in friendships are different too. WOmen tend to value fidelity (hence all the listening and empathy) whereas men tend to value loyalty (the being willing to step in and help out if a problem DOES need solving)

That, or we all have tiny penises and were just not okay with it. who knows?
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on January 01, 2016, 02:06:17 am
see, also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 02:10:14 am
When it's someone talking about something I know better than they do it tends to amuse me.  Sometimes I can manage to laugh at myself in the same sort of situation and realize I am being a know it all.  The only time someone pretending to know more than they actually do bothers me is if I act on their advice and it turns out it was wrong.

My favorite example of it is probably from today when my friend looked at the computer I bought and told me, "That'll fit the bill", despite not having been asked, nor knowing anything about what I want it for or will be doing with it. I wanted to say "I know, that's why I bought it" but I didn't.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 02:13:54 am
I'm also guilty of this. Also reading the SGitR posts has been useful & eye opening. I've been trying to control it. If it wasn't for my wife & daughter I'd probably be much worse. I am glad they told me although it stung. "Sometimes, it's OK to be sympathetic", was what the daughter said. I was probably telling her how to run her life at the time.

I think it started with parents & teaching. I am old enough that I had the "lecture at" sort of teachers and my dad is definitely of that sort. However, I know plenty of people my age who don't 'splain like me so something else is involved in my case. In academia, I find a few of the grad students hang on my words (as if I know what I'm talking about). I try to be careful about when I'm brainstorming or BS-ing scientifically or at least provide a pointer to a reference for my source of info. I also agree that there's some sort of dominance thing going on. Lastly, I find myself doing this when I am unable to make regular conversation - especially with students or when we're waiting for some equipment to warm up or equilibrate. I'll just natter on an on in a lecturing sort of way. I'm trying to ask more questions and/or be comfortable with the silence but it's a tricky habit for me.

I usually find it amusing when I get the mansplaining. It's taught me to file such explanations under "maybe / to be reviewed later". However, if it's something I disagree with, and I can't get a word in edgewise, or I think they're working with faulty starting principles, I can get angry and impatient. I usually just change the subject or move on to some other task then. Again - that's what I do - probably not what I should do.

It must be a tricky line to walk when you actually are the expert in the room, because you're expected to be the authority on the subject, but still need to maintain awareness of what other people already know.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 02:17:39 am
I find myself doing this as well, and i think it has to do with the way men socialize as opposed to women. if a women brings up a subject to other women, the social assumption seems to be for the other woman to listen attentively. Whereas when a man brings up a topic to another man, the assumption tends to be that the issue is a "problem" that needs to be "solved". I remember hearing about this in a communications class once, but it has to do with the different genders having different social "languages". The pofessor also said that the kinds of things men and women value in friendships are different too. WOmen tend to value fidelity (hence all the listening and empathy) whereas men tend to value loyalty (the being willing to step in and help out if a problem DOES need solving)

That, or we all have tiny penises and were just not okay with it. who knows?

Yes, I think we have all been exposed to the "men and women have different communication styles" trope by this point. Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, right? Except that of course outside of pop psychology and self-help books, it's not that simple. Socialization definitely plays a role, and the concept of gender-based communication styles is itself a form of social conditioning. We (should) all know that by now.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 02:18:17 am
see, also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4EDhdAHrOg

When I first saw it I assumed that video was made by an MRA sympathizer. Maybe some other variety of misogynist.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Nast on January 01, 2016, 02:35:21 am
I find myself doing this as well, and i think it has to do with the way men socialize as opposed to women. if a women brings up a subject to other women, the social assumption seems to be for the other woman to listen attentively. Whereas when a man brings up a topic to another man, the assumption tends to be that the issue is a "problem" that needs to be "solved". I remember hearing about this in a communications class once, but it has to do with the different genders having different social "languages". The pofessor also said that the kinds of things men and women value in friendships are different too. WOmen tend to value fidelity (hence all the listening and empathy) whereas men tend to value loyalty (the being willing to step in and help out if a problem DOES need solving)

That, or we all have tiny penises and were just not okay with it. who knows?

Yes, I think we have all been exposed to the "men and women have different communication styles" trope by this point. Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, right? Except that of course outside of pop psychology and self-help books, it's not that simple. Socialization definitely plays a role, and the concept of gender-based communication styles is itself a form of social conditioning. We (should) all know that by now.

Nigel, I think you're being too quick to dismiss what Chelagoras is saying. Don't you think there's an appreciable difference between how men and women are conditioned to communicate, and also how men are conditioned to communicate with women, that contributes to the phenomenon of mainsplaining?


Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Nast on January 01, 2016, 02:38:47 am
Of course it's as simple, cut-and-dry, and universally applicable as those pop-psychology books make it out to be. But I think there's still validity to the basic concept and that it's relevant to the discussion ay hand.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Trivial on January 01, 2016, 02:44:38 am
Not sure if it's really mansplaining, since I lack the whole man bit, but I have an urge where my brain goes, "I know thing, must say thing before I explode!"

I'd say it would have to do with the fact that I can go days without talking to another female in real life, but I've always been that way.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 02:49:37 am
I find myself doing this as well, and i think it has to do with the way men socialize as opposed to women. if a women brings up a subject to other women, the social assumption seems to be for the other woman to listen attentively. Whereas when a man brings up a topic to another man, the assumption tends to be that the issue is a "problem" that needs to be "solved". I remember hearing about this in a communications class once, but it has to do with the different genders having different social "languages". The pofessor also said that the kinds of things men and women value in friendships are different too. WOmen tend to value fidelity (hence all the listening and empathy) whereas men tend to value loyalty (the being willing to step in and help out if a problem DOES need solving)

That, or we all have tiny penises and were just not okay with it. who knows?

Yes, I think we have all been exposed to the "men and women have different communication styles" trope by this point. Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, right? Except that of course outside of pop psychology and self-help books, it's not that simple. Socialization definitely plays a role, and the concept of gender-based communication styles is itself a form of social conditioning. We (should) all know that by now.

Nigel, I think you're being too quick to dismiss what Chelagoras is saying. Don't you think there's an appreciable difference between how men and women are conditioned to communicate, and also how men are conditioned to communicate with women, that contributes to the phenomenon of mainsplaining?

Of course I do, and I would love to see someone delve a little deeper into it than saying, in effect, "men and women are socially conditioned to communicate differently", which, ironically, is simply spelling out the obvious...
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: LMNO on January 01, 2016, 03:41:54 pm
I fear there's also a touch of misogyny here as well, with some men automatically assuming a woman doesn't know as much about a thing as they do. And then there's the times when a woman may not know the minutiae of a certain subject, and doesn't really care to know more about it, but the dude keeps nattering on.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Eater of Clowns on January 01, 2016, 05:59:35 pm
I do it because I am a font of wisdom. My benevolence is weaponized. I intake the sands of knowledge and form it into pearls of sagelike splendor. Witness me. I will whisper to you the rightness of ways.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on January 01, 2016, 06:47:55 pm
I find myself doing this as well, and i think it has to do with the way men socialize as opposed to women. if a women brings up a subject to other women, the social assumption seems to be for the other woman to listen attentively. Whereas when a man brings up a topic to another man, the assumption tends to be that the issue is a "problem" that needs to be "solved". I remember hearing about this in a communications class once, but it has to do with the different genders having different social "languages". The pofessor also said that the kinds of things men and women value in friendships are different too. WOmen tend to value fidelity (hence all the listening and empathy) whereas men tend to value loyalty (the being willing to step in and help out if a problem DOES need solving)

That, or we all have tiny penises and were just not okay with it. who knows?

Yes, I think we have all been exposed to the "men and women have different communication styles" trope by this point. Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, right? Except that of course outside of pop psychology and self-help books, it's not that simple. Socialization definitely plays a role, and the concept of gender-based communication styles is itself a form of social conditioning. We (should) all know that by now.

Nigel, I think you're being too quick to dismiss what Chelagoras is saying. Don't you think there's an appreciable difference between how men and women are conditioned to communicate, and also how men are conditioned to communicate with women, that contributes to the phenomenon of mainsplaining?

Of course I do, and I would love to see someone delve a little deeper into it than saying, in effect, "men and women are socially conditioned to communicate differently", which, ironically, is simply spelling out the obvious...
Well, then it could follow that mansplaining is less an ego thing and more of a need to be socially valued. We are a social species after all, and since men are usually shit at the emotional connection half of things, mansplaining could be the man in question trying to connect using the tools he has to hand, his skills or experience. It could be less about belittling you as a woman and more about saying, "hey, look at me, i'm useful! I have purpose! Don't kick me out of the tribe!"
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 08:04:56 pm
I fear there's also a touch of misogyny here as well, with some men automatically assuming a woman doesn't know as much about a thing as they do. And then there's the times when a woman may not know the minutiae of a certain subject, and doesn't really care to know more about it, but the dude keeps nattering on.

Yeah, I think misogyny is so deeply embedded in Western culture, and particularly American culture, that it's almost impossible to escape that effect. As a woman, it means often accepting being treated like a child, with a man assuming the role of teacher/lecturer yet, oddly, not expecting the woman to actually learn and remember. I think the unconscious assumption is that women can't actually learn.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 08:07:39 pm
I find myself doing this as well, and i think it has to do with the way men socialize as opposed to women. if a women brings up a subject to other women, the social assumption seems to be for the other woman to listen attentively. Whereas when a man brings up a topic to another man, the assumption tends to be that the issue is a "problem" that needs to be "solved". I remember hearing about this in a communications class once, but it has to do with the different genders having different social "languages". The pofessor also said that the kinds of things men and women value in friendships are different too. WOmen tend to value fidelity (hence all the listening and empathy) whereas men tend to value loyalty (the being willing to step in and help out if a problem DOES need solving)

That, or we all have tiny penises and were just not okay with it. who knows?

Yes, I think we have all been exposed to the "men and women have different communication styles" trope by this point. Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, right? Except that of course outside of pop psychology and self-help books, it's not that simple. Socialization definitely plays a role, and the concept of gender-based communication styles is itself a form of social conditioning. We (should) all know that by now.

Nigel, I think you're being too quick to dismiss what Chelagoras is saying. Don't you think there's an appreciable difference between how men and women are conditioned to communicate, and also how men are conditioned to communicate with women, that contributes to the phenomenon of mainsplaining?

Of course I do, and I would love to see someone delve a little deeper into it than saying, in effect, "men and women are socially conditioned to communicate differently", which, ironically, is simply spelling out the obvious...
Well, then it could follow that mansplaining is less an ego thing and more of a need to be socially valued. We are a social species after all, and since men are usually shit at the emotional connection half of things, mansplaining could be the man in question trying to connect using the tools he has to hand, his skills or experience. It could be less about belittling you as a woman and more about saying, "hey, look at me, i'm useful! I have purpose! Don't kick me out of the tribe!"

That would make more sense if men primarily mansplained to other men, as a means of displaying their value to decision-makers. Your conjecture makes sense if women control the tribe, but in American culture that isn't the case, and I have noticed that Europeans, particularly Northern Europeans, mansplain far, far less than Americans.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 08:21:36 pm
In an example Alty just mentioned, our friend saw the camera equipment in my office and started mansplaining photography, which is an interesting move since it assumed that I don't understand the equipment that I clearly own. I have purchased it and placed it on shelves in my workspace, yet his automatic assumption seemed to be that I do not understand it. Why, then, does he think I own it? For decoration perhaps? It makes little sense; why would anyone go into someone's workspace and assume that they know nothing about their own tools?

And yet, this behavior is not atypical; it's completely commonplace, barely remarkable. It happens daily, about almost anything. Just about the only arena in which I am unlikely to encounter it is the grocery store.

What's the best way to let someone in this situation know that they are mansplaining? Do you say "Hey, dude, you're mansplaining"? Or "So that's a camera? You don't say? I wasn't sure why I bought it."
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 08:29:53 pm
I fear there's also a touch of misogyny here as well, with some men automatically assuming a woman doesn't know as much about a thing as they do. And then there's the times when a woman may not know the minutiae of a certain subject, and doesn't really care to know more about it, but the dude keeps nattering on.

I want to come back to this, because I just realized that this is an element that I am taking for granted, yet clearly not everyone in the conversation is taking for granted. OF COURSE it's rooted in cultural misogyny; that much seems plainly obvious to me. Not that all men who do it are woman-haters, but for the same reason men and women have different communication styles; it's culturally embedded, it is as ingrained in men to not think about what a woman might already know as it is ingrained in women to listen patiently while men bloviate. Just as fear of black men is so culturally ingrained that no matter how thoughtful, educated, and enlightened a person, they will still have an alarm response when they encounter one on a dark street. Even black men are enculturated to fear black men. American men are enculturated not so much to think of women as incapable, but to not think of women's capabilities at all.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 08:31:36 pm
I do it because I am a font of wisdom. My benevolence is weaponized. I intake the sands of knowledge and form it into pearls of sagelike splendor. Witness me. I will whisper to you the rightness of ways.

 :lulz:
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 08:36:43 pm
Not sure if it's really mansplaining, since I lack the whole man bit, but I have an urge where my brain goes, "I know thing, must say thing before I explode!"

I'd say it would have to do with the fact that I can go days without talking to another female in real life, but I've always been that way.

I really am not sure whether that would fit the category of mansplaining or not. I guess it depends partly on whether you do it with topics that the person you do it to should reasonably be expected to already know. For example, if you walked into someone's home and saw that they own, for example, a Nintendo 64, do you assume they know how to use it, or do you start explaining the rudiments of playing Nintendo 64 games to them as if they have ever seen one before, let alone own one? Mansplaining really on some level requires an unthinking assumption of complete ignorance on the listener's part, specifically about a topic they would obviously, if the explainer was using reason or thinking about it at all, already be fluent in.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Nast on January 01, 2016, 09:31:07 pm
In an example Alty just mentioned, our friend saw the camera equipment in my office and started mansplaining photography, which is an interesting move since it assumed that I don't understand the equipment that I clearly own. I have purchased it and placed it on shelves in my workspace, yet his automatic assumption seemed to be that I do not understand it. Why, then, does he think I own it? For decoration perhaps? It makes little sense; why would anyone go into someone's workspace and assume that they know nothing about their own tools?

The only possible conclusion is that mansplaining is not so much intended for the receiver's benefit, but rather the mansplainer's own self-edification. It is a form of unsolicited vice, and therefore a form of verbal diarrhea.

I think the reason mansplaining is more prevalent in America rather than other countries is because American culture encourages verbal diarrhea. Even if what you're saying has no particular worth, the fact that you're forcing others to listen to you is an act of status.

Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Nast on January 01, 2016, 09:53:10 pm
What's the best way to let someone in this situation know that they are mansplaining? Do you say "Hey, dude, you're mansplaining"? Or "So that's a camera? You don't say? I wasn't sure why I bought it."

Hm...that's tricky. I think, for situation you described in the OP, in the chatroom, saying "Thank you for wanting to help, but I'm not actually looking for advice..." is the most gracious yet direct way to say it.

I wish I had some suggestion for dealing with IRL situation, but I'm pretty shitty at dealing with IRL situations myself so take my advice with a grain of salt. Maybe try agreeing enthusiastically yet curtly with him and then quickly change the subject? For example:

Friend: "You know, the model T-480 lens is the best for capturing those close-up shots!"
You: "Absolutely! The geese are really coming in well this year. I think this might be the year that Betty starts laying eggs."*

* I know nothing about cameras or geese so I just kinda made this conversation up.

Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on January 01, 2016, 10:05:46 pm
If it's something that  your friend does kind of a lot, I would try and bring it up to him out of the exact moment. Bringing it up in the moment might cause him to get defensive,  which might keep him from getting the "lesson".
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 10:19:16 pm
In an example Alty just mentioned, our friend saw the camera equipment in my office and started mansplaining photography, which is an interesting move since it assumed that I don't understand the equipment that I clearly own. I have purchased it and placed it on shelves in my workspace, yet his automatic assumption seemed to be that I do not understand it. Why, then, does he think I own it? For decoration perhaps? It makes little sense; why would anyone go into someone's workspace and assume that they know nothing about their own tools?

The only possible conclusion is that mansplaining is not so much intended for the receiver's benefit, but rather the mansplainer's own self-edification. It is a form of unsolicited vice, and therefore a form of verbal diarrhea.

I think the reason mansplaining is more prevalent in America rather than other countries is because American culture encourages verbal diarrhea. Even if what you're saying has no particular worth, the fact that you're forcing others to listen to you is an act of status.

I really think that what LMNO said about misogyny is extremely key, though. America is definitely more misogynistic than other developed countries, and as a result women are infantilized more here. Men do mansplain to other men, and sometimes women mansplain too, which is a phenomenon worth delving into, but it's not the commonplace, everyday occurrence that men mansplaining to women is.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 10:23:20 pm
What's the best way to let someone in this situation know that they are mansplaining? Do you say "Hey, dude, you're mansplaining"? Or "So that's a camera? You don't say? I wasn't sure why I bought it."

Hm...that's tricky. I think, for situation you described in the OP, in the chatroom, saying "Thank you for wanting to help, but I'm not actually looking for advice..." is the most gracious yet direct way to say it.

I wish I had some suggestion for dealing with IRL situation, but I'm pretty shitty at dealing with IRL situations myself so take my advice with a grain of salt. Maybe try agreeing enthusiastically yet curtly with him and then quickly change the subject? For example:

Friend: "You know, the model T-480 lens is the best for capturing those close-up shots!"
You: "Absolutely! The geese are really coming in well this year. I think this might be the year that Betty starts laying eggs."*

* I know nothing about cameras or geese so I just kinda made this conversation up.

I kind of think that pointing out that he is mansplaining might be a key element, though, because if you are unaware of the nature of a certain behavior, you can't do much to change it. So it becomes a question of "do I want to tackle that, running the risk of it turning into an unpleasant, defensive conversation, or do I continue to obey my social conditioning and pleasantly deflect?"
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 10:29:32 pm
I'm certainly not doing him, or others who engage in mansplaining, any favors by maintaining the status quo and deflecting rather than pointing it out when it happens. On the other hand, women who complain about mansplaining, condescention, or other commonplace elements of misogynistic microaggression tend to be quickly dismissed as shrill, hysterical feminist social justice warriors who are overreacting over something insignificant. In fact, even in the course of this conversation, I leveraged LMNO's mention of misogyny in order to bolster the credibility of that claim, because I know that if I was the one to bring it up it would be more likely to be dismissed. I know this because of 44 years of experience being female in the US, and a degree in psychology, and it's a well-studied phenomenon from which nobody is immune, and yet I am explaining this right now because I know that many people's first reaction to reading that would be "oh, come on, give me a break".
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Nast on January 01, 2016, 10:36:22 pm
In an example Alty just mentioned, our friend saw the camera equipment in my office and started mansplaining photography, which is an interesting move since it assumed that I don't understand the equipment that I clearly own. I have purchased it and placed it on shelves in my workspace, yet his automatic assumption seemed to be that I do not understand it. Why, then, does he think I own it? For decoration perhaps? It makes little sense; why would anyone go into someone's workspace and assume that they know nothing about their own tools?

The only possible conclusion is that mansplaining is not so much intended for the receiver's benefit, but rather the mansplainer's own self-edification. It is a form of unsolicited vice, and therefore a form of verbal diarrhea.

I think the reason mansplaining is more prevalent in America rather than other countries is because American culture encourages verbal diarrhea. Even if what you're saying has no particular worth, the fact that you're forcing others to listen to you is an act of status.

I really think that what LMNO said about misogyny is extremely key, though. America is definitely more misogynistic than other developed countries, and as a result women are infantilized more here. Men do mansplain to other men, and sometimes women mansplain too, which is a phenomenon worth delving into, but it's not the commonplace, everyday occurrence that men mansplaining to women is.

Yes, I do agree that it's the main factor. I didn't want to come across as denying that misogyny is playing a key role here, I just wanted to also explore other angles of it.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Nast on January 01, 2016, 10:39:43 pm
What's the best way to let someone in this situation know that they are mansplaining? Do you say "Hey, dude, you're mansplaining"? Or "So that's a camera? You don't say? I wasn't sure why I bought it."

Hm...that's tricky. I think, for situation you described in the OP, in the chatroom, saying "Thank you for wanting to help, but I'm not actually looking for advice..." is the most gracious yet direct way to say it.

I wish I had some suggestion for dealing with IRL situation, but I'm pretty shitty at dealing with IRL situations myself so take my advice with a grain of salt. Maybe try agreeing enthusiastically yet curtly with him and then quickly change the subject? For example:

Friend: "You know, the model T-480 lens is the best for capturing those close-up shots!"
You: "Absolutely! The geese are really coming in well this year. I think this might be the year that Betty starts laying eggs."*

* I know nothing about cameras or geese so I just kinda made this conversation up.

I kind of think that pointing out that he is mansplaining might be a key element, though, because if you are unaware of the nature of a certain behavior, you can't do much to change it. So it becomes a question of "do I want to tackle that, running the risk of it turning into an unpleasant, defensive conversation, or do I continue to obey my social conditioning and pleasantly deflect?"

It sounds like you already know what to do in this situation then...
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 10:43:29 pm
What's the best way to let someone in this situation know that they are mansplaining? Do you say "Hey, dude, you're mansplaining"? Or "So that's a camera? You don't say? I wasn't sure why I bought it."

Hm...that's tricky. I think, for situation you described in the OP, in the chatroom, saying "Thank you for wanting to help, but I'm not actually looking for advice..." is the most gracious yet direct way to say it.

I wish I had some suggestion for dealing with IRL situation, but I'm pretty shitty at dealing with IRL situations myself so take my advice with a grain of salt. Maybe try agreeing enthusiastically yet curtly with him and then quickly change the subject? For example:

Friend: "You know, the model T-480 lens is the best for capturing those close-up shots!"
You: "Absolutely! The geese are really coming in well this year. I think this might be the year that Betty starts laying eggs."*

* I know nothing about cameras or geese so I just kinda made this conversation up.

I kind of think that pointing out that he is mansplaining might be a key element, though, because if you are unaware of the nature of a certain behavior, you can't do much to change it. So it becomes a question of "do I want to tackle that, running the risk of it turning into an unpleasant, defensive conversation, or do I continue to obey my social conditioning and pleasantly deflect?"

It sounds like you already know what to do in this situation then...

No, not really. I know what's more morally right, but what's more morally right is less socially acceptable. It's not the easiest stream to swim against and I don't know whether I want to fight that particular battle.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 10:46:32 pm
Basically, I am trying to muddle through the best way of tackling this problem, personally and on a wider social scale.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on January 01, 2016, 10:46:48 pm
well i think there's a difference between calling out microaggressions in strangers and calling them out in loved ones. In strangers, you have no significant level of connection or relationship with the person, so fuck it, call him a shitlord and go about your day. With loved ones however, you risk threatening that relationship by making what could be perceived as an attack on his or her character. rather than treat this as an obstacle, think of it as a tool and use your connection to approach the topic in a nonjudgemental way. Dont frame it as "hey i'm calling you out on your bullshit, cut it out" but instead come from the heart and say something like "hey can you not X, because it makes me feel Y" This will also probably feel weird and awkward, but it probably wont end in yelling and may actually work.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Nast on January 01, 2016, 10:47:19 pm
I'm certainly not doing him, or others who engage in mansplaining, any favors by maintaining the status quo and deflecting rather than pointing it out when it happens. On the other hand, women who complain about mansplaining, condescention, or other commonplace elements of misogynistic microaggression tend to be quickly dismissed as shrill, hysterical feminist social justice warriors who are overreacting over something insignificant. In fact, even in the course of this conversation, I leveraged LMNO's mention of misogyny in order to bolster the credibility of that claim, because I know that if I was the one to bring it up it would be more likely to be dismissed. I know this because of 44 years of experience being female in the US, and a degree in psychology, and it's a well-studied phenomenon from which nobody is immune, and yet I am explaining this right now because I know that many people's first reaction to reading that would be "oh, come on, give me a break".

I'm kind of confused by this thread by right now. You created a thread to discuss what are the mansplaining, asking for people's advice on how to deal with friends who are mansplainers, but you already seem to have all the answers in your mind right now.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 10:50:43 pm
And then there's the bigger question, which is, what can Discordia do about it?
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 10:52:37 pm
I'm certainly not doing him, or others who engage in mansplaining, any favors by maintaining the status quo and deflecting rather than pointing it out when it happens. On the other hand, women who complain about mansplaining, condescention, or other commonplace elements of misogynistic microaggression tend to be quickly dismissed as shrill, hysterical feminist social justice warriors who are overreacting over something insignificant. In fact, even in the course of this conversation, I leveraged LMNO's mention of misogyny in order to bolster the credibility of that claim, because I know that if I was the one to bring it up it would be more likely to be dismissed. I know this because of 44 years of experience being female in the US, and a degree in psychology, and it's a well-studied phenomenon from which nobody is immune, and yet I am explaining this right now because I know that many people's first reaction to reading that would be "oh, come on, give me a break".

I'm kind of confused by this thread by right now. You created a thread to discuss what are the mansplaining, asking for people's advice on how to deal with friends who are mansplainers, but you already seem to have all the answers in your mind right now.

What about my indecision gives you that idea? Or am I supposed to not think while I write, nor come up with clarifying thoughts over the course of a conversation? This isn't really a "give me advice" thread, it's more of a "let's talk about this thing" thread.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 10:53:49 pm
well i think there's a difference between calling out microaggressions in strangers and calling them out in loved ones. In strangers, you have no significant level of connection or relationship with the person, so fuck it, call him a shitlord and go about your day. With loved ones however, you risk threatening that relationship by making what could be perceived as an attack on his or her character. rather than treat this as an obstacle, think of it as a tool and use your connection to approach the topic in a nonjudgemental way. Dont frame it as "hey i'm calling you out on your bullshit, cut it out" but instead come from the heart and say something like "hey can you not X, because it makes me feel Y" This will also probably feel weird and awkward, but it probably wont end in yelling and may actually work.

I am not sure that actually addresses the problem at all.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 10:55:26 pm

What I am wondering is what drives this? Is it driven by a deep-seated desire to help? Is it an ego thing? An authority issue?

If anyone here has ever caught themselves mansplaining or is aware that they do it, how would you describe the motivation for explaining something to someone who hasn't asked or otherwise indicated in any way  that they need an explanation?

For reference, these are the actual questions in the OP, in case you actually mistook this for an asking-for-advice thread and not a discussion thread.

In the interim since posing these questions, via this discussion, I have concluded that it is primarily an embedded cultural misogyny thing, so the discussion has been helpful in that respect.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 11:01:23 pm
But, it's probably far more comforting to simply decide that I am being difficult, because that allows everyone to walk away from the conversation and not think about  it anymore, thus avoiding the discomfort and potential inconvenience of confronting a cultural phenomenon we all participate in that is essentially rooted in bigotry.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on January 01, 2016, 11:09:50 pm
well i think there's a difference between calling out microaggressions in strangers and calling them out in loved ones. In strangers, you have no significant level of connection or relationship with the person, so fuck it, call him a shitlord and go about your day. With loved ones however, you risk threatening that relationship by making what could be perceived as an attack on his or her character. rather than treat this as an obstacle, think of it as a tool and use your connection to approach the topic in a nonjudgemental way. Dont frame it as "hey i'm calling you out on your bullshit, cut it out" but instead come from the heart and say something like "hey can you not X, because it makes me feel Y" This will also probably feel weird and awkward, but it probably wont end in yelling and may actually work.

I am not sure that actually addresses the problem at all.
it does for you and that person.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 11:11:14 pm
well i think there's a difference between calling out microaggressions in strangers and calling them out in loved ones. In strangers, you have no significant level of connection or relationship with the person, so fuck it, call him a shitlord and go about your day. With loved ones however, you risk threatening that relationship by making what could be perceived as an attack on his or her character. rather than treat this as an obstacle, think of it as a tool and use your connection to approach the topic in a nonjudgemental way. Dont frame it as "hey i'm calling you out on your bullshit, cut it out" but instead come from the heart and say something like "hey can you not X, because it makes me feel Y" This will also probably feel weird and awkward, but it probably wont end in yelling and may actually work.

I am not sure that actually addresses the problem at all.
it does for you and that person.

Also, a related question: should I tell my friend that he does this? Should I just be "you're mansplaining, friend, FYI"?
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 11:15:37 pm
But please, do tell me some more what solution I really need. It's amusingly ironic.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 01, 2016, 11:20:23 pm
Nast and Chelagoras, I'm actually having a super hard time figuring out whether you two are being dense and patronizing on purpose to be funny. If you are, I apologize for not picking up on the joke.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Nast on January 01, 2016, 11:25:46 pm
I'm certainly not doing him, or others who engage in mansplaining, any favors by maintaining the status quo and deflecting rather than pointing it out when it happens. On the other hand, women who complain about mansplaining, condescention, or other commonplace elements of misogynistic microaggression tend to be quickly dismissed as shrill, hysterical feminist social justice warriors who are overreacting over something insignificant. In fact, even in the course of this conversation, I leveraged LMNO's mention of misogyny in order to bolster the credibility of that claim, because I know that if I was the one to bring it up it would be more likely to be dismissed. I know this because of 44 years of experience being female in the US, and a degree in psychology, and it's a well-studied phenomenon from which nobody is immune, and yet I am explaining this right now because I know that many people's first reaction to reading that would be "oh, come on, give me a break".

I'm kind of confused by this thread by right now. You created a thread to discuss what are the mansplaining, asking for people's advice on how to deal with friends who are mansplainers, but you already seem to have all the answers in your mind right now.

What about my indecision gives you that idea? Or am I supposed to not think while I write, nor come up with clarifying thoughts over the course of a conversation? This isn't really a "give me advice" thread, it's more of a "let's talk about this thing" thread.

Sorry, I'm much slower to write and respond to posts than you so allow me to catch up. *Breathes* Okay. I think what is tripping me up is your debating/discussion style, which is very...assertive...and so I didn't pick up any indecision at all. But now I understand that debating/discussing is how you are making up your mind. It's just different than how I think, I guess. I'm not trying to insinuate any of those things you think I may be insinuating.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on January 01, 2016, 11:26:20 pm
to be fair, it s a little patronizing that you seem to think there's some magic set of words that can reach every man to be a better person automatically. There isnt, the best you can do is use your relationship to help your friend make steps towards that, when and if he wants to. You cant help anyone who doesn't want help; you cant change anyone who doesn't want to change. Outside of that I don't know what to tell you.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Nast on January 01, 2016, 11:28:53 pm
Also, a related question: should I tell my friend that he does this? Should I just be "you're mansplaining, friend, FYI"?

^ I know that this was technically the second post in the thread, not the OP, but I interpreted this that you also wanted advice on what to say to your friend( I also know that it's not meant to be the main topic).
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Nast on January 01, 2016, 11:32:58 pm
Nast and Chelagoras, I'm actually having a super hard time figuring out whether you two are being dense and patronizing on purpose to be funny. If you are, I apologize for not picking up on the joke.

If I'm being dense, I'm not being dense on purpose. I'm also not trying to be patronizing or funny at all.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Nast on January 01, 2016, 11:52:40 pm
Nigel, would you please give us the benefit of the doubt? Rereading this thread, I think people are sincerely trying to contribute to this thread as they understand it, and not trying to patronize you or dismiss you. I also think you're being rather vitriolic about it.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on January 02, 2016, 12:17:41 am
^seconded.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 02, 2016, 02:06:56 am
Also, a related question: should I tell my friend that he does this? Should I just be "you're mansplaining, friend, FYI"?

^ I know that this was technically the second post in the thread, not the OP, but I interpreted this that you also wanted advice on what to say to your friend( I also know that it's not meant to be the main topic).

The question was whether I should tell my friend that he is mansplaining.


Why is this hard?
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Cain on January 02, 2016, 02:08:32 am
He'd probably appreciate knowing, assuming he's an actual friend and not just some kind of casual acquaintance.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 02, 2016, 02:10:22 am

Sorry, I'm much slower to write and respond to posts than you so allow me to catch up. *Breathes* Okay. I think what is tripping me up is your debating/discussion style, which is very...assertive...and so I didn't pick up any indecision at all. But now I understand that debating/discussing is how you are making up your mind. It's just different than how I think, I guess. I'm not trying to insinuate any of those things you think I may be insinuating.

to be fair, it s a little patronizing that you seem to think there's some magic set of words that can reach every man to be a better person automatically. There isnt, the best you can do is use your relationship to help your friend make steps towards that, when and if he wants to. You cant help anyone who doesn't want help; you cant change anyone who doesn't want to change. Outside of that I don't know what to tell you.

Nigel, would you please give us the benefit of the doubt? Rereading this thread, I think people are sincerely trying to contribute to this thread as they understand it, and not trying to patronize you or dismiss you. I also think you're being rather vitriolic about it.

 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: No, but seriously.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 02, 2016, 02:12:15 am
He'd probably appreciate knowing, assuming he's an actual friend and not just some kind of casual acquaintance.

Yeah, he's a newer friend from school, but we hang out a fair bit.

I should probably tell him. I just don't know how receptive he'll be about it.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Nast on January 02, 2016, 02:34:36 am
Also, a related question: should I tell my friend that he does this? Should I just be "you're mansplaining, friend, FYI"?

^ I know that this was technically the second post in the thread, not the OP, but I interpreted this that you also wanted advice on what to say to your friend( I also know that it's not meant to be the main topic).

The question was whether I should tell my friend that he is mansplaining.


Why is this hard?

Okay, now I understand that you just wanted a yes or no answer to that. I'm sorry for not catching that.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Nast on January 02, 2016, 02:49:13 am
Nigel, to be honest, your derisive tone is actually pretty hurtful.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Trivial on January 02, 2016, 05:01:14 am
Not sure if it's really mansplaining, since I lack the whole man bit, but I have an urge where my brain goes, "I know thing, must say thing before I explode!"

I'd say it would have to do with the fact that I can go days without talking to another female in real life, but I've always been that way.

I really am not sure whether that would fit the category of mansplaining or not. I guess it depends partly on whether you do it with topics that the person you do it to should reasonably be expected to already know. For example, if you walked into someone's home and saw that they own, for example, a Nintendo 64, do you assume they know how to use it, or do you start explaining the rudiments of playing Nintendo 64 games to them as if they have ever seen one before, let alone own one? Mansplaining really on some level requires an unthinking assumption of complete ignorance on the listener's part, specifically about a topic they would obviously, if the explainer was using reason or thinking about it at all, already be fluent in.

That is different than what I was thinking of.  I'm sure now after this post I'm going to see it everywhere.   :argh!:
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: East Coast Hustle on January 02, 2016, 07:39:09 am
This thread might reach critical irony.

I think you should tell him but I also recognize that that's an easy thing for me to say. But if you can't get your friends to knock that shit off around you then why be friends with them?

As for the actual OP questions, well, fuck if I know. But taking a minute to think about that from the POV of the receiving end increases my already estimable respect for your ability to not literally kill every motherfucker every goddamn day.

A possibly related anecdotal observation: I find it much easier to teach women than men in the kitchen. My impression is that they're less likely to approach a genuine teaching moment (in a context in which I am above them in the professional chain of command) with the mindset that they already know better than I do what I'm trying to show or tell them. If all the line cooks were women, chefs wouldn't NEED to yell other than to be heard during service over the sounds of a busy kitchen.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: East Coast Hustle on January 02, 2016, 07:40:23 am
And now I just realized that you have me questioning how much of that is just a side effect of negative social conditioning due to constant mansplaining. Goddammit. :lulz:
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: East Coast Hustle on January 02, 2016, 07:42:09 am
HEY GUYS I HAVE A GREAT IDEA. LET'S MAKE HALF OF THE HUMAN RACE LEARN HOW TO BE NICER PEOPLE AND THEN PRETTY MUCH IGNORE WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 02, 2016, 06:30:51 pm
This thread might reach critical irony.

I think you should tell him but I also recognize that that's an easy thing for me to say. But if you can't get your friends to knock that shit off around you then why be friends with them?

As for the actual OP questions, well, fuck if I know. But taking a minute to think about that from the POV of the receiving end increases my already estimable respect for your ability to not literally kill every motherfucker every goddamn day.

A possibly related anecdotal observation: I find it much easier to teach women than men in the kitchen. My impression is that they're less likely to approach a genuine teaching moment (in a context in which I am above them in the professional chain of command) with the mindset that they already know better than I do what I'm trying to show or tell them. If all the line cooks were women, chefs wouldn't NEED to yell other than to be heard during service over the sounds of a busy kitchen.

That is interesting, but not especially surprising. My dad says that women are easier to teach to shoot, too, for similar reasons.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 02, 2016, 06:31:36 pm
And now I just realized that you have me questioning how much of that is just a side effect of negative social conditioning due to constant mansplaining. Goddammit. :lulz:

It's probably part of the same social conditioning that leads to mansplaining.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 02, 2016, 06:32:28 pm
Nigel, to be honest, your derisive tone is actually pretty hurtful.

You and Chelagoras mansplaining in the mansplaining thread is hilarious, though.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 02, 2016, 06:35:15 pm
"Hey I'm not gonna read or think about what you wrote, I'm just gonna respond to what I think you wrote, tell you you're wrong, too aggressive, too patronizing, unclear in your wording, and give you an irrelevant answer to a question you didn't ask, and act butthurt when you point it out."

I hope you're able, at some point, to recognize that pain as cognitive dissonance, because it will help you a lot if you figure it out.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 02, 2016, 06:40:31 pm
I think that a major clue might be the part where you looked at this thread and somehow decided it must be an advice thread, in which Nigel is asking for advice on handling mansplainers in her personal life, because I asked the question about whether I should tell my friend he's mansplaining. You see, if I tell my friend he is mansplaining, odds are very high that he will react exactly as you are, complete with "why did you ask if you don't want to hear the solution?" defensiveness that totally misconstrues the context and misses the point.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Nast on January 02, 2016, 07:00:44 pm
"Hey I'm not gonna read or think about what you wrote, I'm just gonna respond to what I think you wrote, tell you you're wrong, too aggressive, too patronizing, unclear in your wording, and give you an irrelevant answer to a question you didn't ask, and act butthurt when you point it out."

I hope you're able, at some point, to recognize that pain as cognitive dissonance, because it will help you a lot if you figure it out.

I really do apologize for misconstruing what you wanted from this thread. I'm not upset at you pointing it out, but rather your tone and sarcasm, which I think is unduly combative. It's painful to me because you're someone that I like and respect, and was not expecting to receive such harsh opprobrium.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 02, 2016, 07:10:11 pm
"Hey I'm not gonna read or think about what you wrote, I'm just gonna respond to what I think you wrote, tell you you're wrong, too aggressive, too patronizing, unclear in your wording, and give you an irrelevant answer to a question you didn't ask, and act butthurt when you point it out."

I hope you're able, at some point, to recognize that pain as cognitive dissonance, because it will help you a lot if you figure it out.

I really do apologize for misconstruing what you wanted from this thread. I'm not upset at you pointing it out, but rather your tone and sarcasm, which I think is unduly combative. It's painful to me because you're someone that I like and respect, and was not expecting to receive such harsh opprobrium.

Well, I appreciate that you like and respect me, and thanks for the open-faced compliment sandwich, but I also think you're being patronizing and a little bit stereotypically manipulative, via telling me that I am being "harsh", "unduly combative", "...assertive", and "vitriolic" in order to shut me down when I pointed out actual mansplaining taking place in the mansplaining thread.

Seriously, Chelagoras pointing out that men and women have different communication styles was classic.
 
:lulz: It actually is funny as hell, when you see it.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 02, 2016, 07:12:12 pm
For the record, I am not mad, Just kind of bemused. I expected much better from you.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 02, 2016, 07:17:24 pm
I find myself doing this as well, and i think it has to do with the way men socialize as opposed to women. if a women brings up a subject to other women, the social assumption seems to be for the other woman to listen attentively. Whereas when a man brings up a topic to another man, the assumption tends to be that the issue is a "problem" that needs to be "solved". I remember hearing about this in a communications class once, but it has to do with the different genders having different social "languages". The pofessor also said that the kinds of things men and women value in friendships are different too. WOmen tend to value fidelity (hence all the listening and empathy) whereas men tend to value loyalty (the being willing to step in and help out if a problem DOES need solving)

That, or we all have tiny penises and were just not okay with it. who knows?

Yes, I think we have all been exposed to the "men and women have different communication styles" trope by this point. Men are from Mars, women are from Venus, right? Except that of course outside of pop psychology and self-help books, it's not that simple. Socialization definitely plays a role, and the concept of gender-based communication styles is itself a form of social conditioning. We (should) all know that by now.

Nigel, I think you're being too quick to dismiss what Chelagoras is saying. Don't you think there's an appreciable difference between how men and women are conditioned to communicate, and also how men are conditioned to communicate with women, that contributes to the phenomenon of mainsplaining?

 :horrormirth: Seriously, Nast. Just what were you thinking? "Oh, she's wrong, she doesn't know this incredibly obvious thing which is an implicit part of the backdrop for mansplaining, I must mansplain it to her some more so she will come back and acknowledge Chelagoras' important contribution to this thread"

Or wait

no

no, there was no actual thinking going on there at all, was there?
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 02, 2016, 07:26:42 pm
Also, Chelagoras, seriously? What you said boils down to "I think mansplaining comes down to men and women being socialized to communicate differently".

YA THINK?

Jesus fuck, guys, how can you NOT SEE THE HILARIOUS IRONY IN THIS EXCHANGE?  :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

Everyone else posting has made totally thoughtful contributions to the thread, but you two seem hell-bent on illustrating its reason for existing in the first place.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Nast on January 02, 2016, 07:27:57 pm
"Hey I'm not gonna read or think about what you wrote, I'm just gonna respond to what I think you wrote, tell you you're wrong, too aggressive, too patronizing, unclear in your wording, and give you an irrelevant answer to a question you didn't ask, and act butthurt when you point it out."

I hope you're able, at some point, to recognize that pain as cognitive dissonance, because it will help you a lot if you figure it out.

I really do apologize for misconstruing what you wanted from this thread. I'm not upset at you pointing it out, but rather your tone and sarcasm, which I think is unduly combative. It's painful to me because you're someone that I like and respect, and was not expecting to receive such harsh opprobrium.

Well, I appreciate that you like and respect me, and thanks for the open-faced compliment sandwich, but I also think you're being patronizing and a little bit stereotypically manipulative, via telling me that I am being "harsh", "unduly combative", "...assertive", and "vitriolic" in order to shut me down when I pointed out actual mansplaining taking place in the mansplaining thread.

Seriously, Chelagoras pointing out that men and women have different communication styles was classic.
 
:lulz: It actually is funny as hell, when you see it.

Wow, I really regret having ever posted in this thread. If what I write is going to continue to be taken in the absolute worst light possible, then I see no reason for further discussion.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 02, 2016, 07:32:49 pm
I'm certainly not doing him, or others who engage in mansplaining, any favors by maintaining the status quo and deflecting rather than pointing it out when it happens. On the other hand, women who complain about mansplaining, condescention, or other commonplace elements of misogynistic microaggression tend to be quickly dismissed as shrill, hysterical feminist social justice warriors who are overreacting over something insignificant. In fact, even in the course of this conversation, I leveraged LMNO's mention of misogyny in order to bolster the credibility of that claim, because I know that if I was the one to bring it up it would be more likely to be dismissed. I know this because of 44 years of experience being female in the US, and a degree in psychology, and it's a well-studied phenomenon from which nobody is immune, and yet I am explaining this right now because I know that many people's first reaction to reading that would be "oh, come on, give me a break".

 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: Quoting because it's happening right now.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 02, 2016, 07:33:42 pm
"Hey I'm not gonna read or think about what you wrote, I'm just gonna respond to what I think you wrote, tell you you're wrong, too aggressive, too patronizing, unclear in your wording, and give you an irrelevant answer to a question you didn't ask, and act butthurt when you point it out."

I hope you're able, at some point, to recognize that pain as cognitive dissonance, because it will help you a lot if you figure it out.

I really do apologize for misconstruing what you wanted from this thread. I'm not upset at you pointing it out, but rather your tone and sarcasm, which I think is unduly combative. It's painful to me because you're someone that I like and respect, and was not expecting to receive such harsh opprobrium.

Well, I appreciate that you like and respect me, and thanks for the open-faced compliment sandwich, but I also think you're being patronizing and a little bit stereotypically manipulative, via telling me that I am being "harsh", "unduly combative", "...assertive", and "vitriolic" in order to shut me down when I pointed out actual mansplaining taking place in the mansplaining thread.

Seriously, Chelagoras pointing out that men and women have different communication styles was classic.
 
:lulz: It actually is funny as hell, when you see it.

Wow, I really regret having ever posted in this thread. If what I write is going to continue to be taken in the absolute worst light possible, then I see no reason for further discussion.

Well, that's definitely easier than examining your own automatic behavior!
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 02, 2016, 07:36:54 pm
Nast, look at all the pejorative adjectives you have ascribed to me over the course of this conversation in order to minimize or dismiss what I have said. In contrast, I would like to point out that I have focused on you and Chelagoras' actual words that you posted, without telling you that you are being aggressive, vitriolic, harsh, taking everything I say in the worst light possible, or in other ways being, well, "difficult".
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on January 02, 2016, 11:03:17 pm
For the record, I get the irony of having fallen into mansplaining in the mansplaining thread, I'm just not laughing, because you seem to think displaying the same type of behavior you're talking about to people you claim to be on good terms with isn't mean when you do it. Hell, if it turns out this whole thread was just a mindfuck to simulate what mansplaining feels like to men, then I honestly would be impressed. But if it's not, then if just means someone I consider a friend is taking out their feelings of frustration on me, which is not cool.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: LMNO on January 03, 2016, 12:34:46 am
Christ, this thread is a clusterfuck.


On OP terms, I'd suggest bringing up the concept of mansplaining to this guy in a neutral space, to get him familiar with the term. Then after, when he starts doing it, reference the original conversation.

In personal experience, it doesn't take well the first half-dozen times, but if he's a guy that wants to be better about this stuff, it'll change.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Salty on January 03, 2016, 01:32:04 am
I'm not going to break this thread down, that would defeat the unintentional purpose. Instead, I am going to point out the fact that Nigel talks as she does ITT with the people she loves, every single day.

Nobody is spared In Nigeling, IMO,  for good reason even though that's not the intent. Check your self. The results may surprise you.
/mansplainNation.

if this makes more sense to you than the OP,  perhaps consider the larger machanations of your mind. If not, KILL ME.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 03, 2016, 01:39:19 am
Christ, this thread is a clusterfuck.


On OP terms, I'd suggest bringing up the concept of mansplaining to this guy in a neutral space, to get him familiar with the term. Then after, when he starts doing it, reference the original conversation.

In personal experience, it doesn't take well the first half-dozen times, but if he's a guy that wants to be better about this stuff, it'll change.

The double hilarity is that he's a fellow Psych major and a feminist. I am sure he does want to do better, and I probably will tell him, but he's really sort of a side-topic. He could never mansplain again, and the world would still be chock full of mansplainers because it's so culturally ingrained for men to tell women what.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 03, 2016, 01:40:44 am
For the record, I get the irony of having fallen into mansplaining in the mansplaining thread, I'm just not laughing, because you seem to think displaying the same type of behavior you're talking about to people you claim to be on good terms with isn't mean when you do it. Hell, if it turns out this whole thread was just a mindfuck to simulate what mansplaining feels like to men, then I honestly would be impressed. But if it's not, then if just means someone I consider a friend is taking out their feelings of frustration on me, which is not cool.

And somehow, digging in and blaming me for hurting your feelings is easier than just going "Oh, damn, I see what I did there, sorry"?
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 03, 2016, 01:42:56 am
Basically, what I'm getting from that is that I should change my tone to humor you when you're an ass, so that you don't feel as wrong, and if I don't then I'm at fault for your wrongness.

How long have I been here? How long have you been here? Have you ever read any of the threads?
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 03, 2016, 01:47:41 am
I also want to repeat, again, that I brought that my friend up AS AN EXAMPLE of a commonplace occurrence, and that the point of this thread is not to solve an interpersonal problem.

However, one thing I have gotten from this thread is that if I do broach the subject with any mansplainer, I better sugar-coat the everloving fuck out of it, or it will all be my fault because his feelings will hurt.
 :lulz:
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Hoopla on January 03, 2016, 08:07:02 am
Donald Trump has taught people that doubling down works in all scenarios.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Faust on January 03, 2016, 11:43:37 am
I've avoided this thread because I am (would like to say was but not quite there yet) very condecending to everyone. I've not much to add other then I've seen the effect with people I know and it appears to be entirely an unconcious thing.

The only observation I can make is it is not limited to gender, but older men communicating with younger ones (some older women seem to develop the trait as they get older too), and in independant of age and sex in the workplace and can often be seen between workers and managers to a more polarised extreme:

Phd Researchers tend to know their material inside out after the first year, but I've often seen even good supervisors still act like the person is fresh in the door, a surprising amount of the students would either humour their supervisor and nod and smile and alternatively a few would have the most intense fights I ever saw while in there.

In all cases there is an assumption of authority and wisdom shared so in the male/female case its got to be a primitive instinct, I am a protector I am a good mate and all that. In the age and workplace cases its more obvious and self explanitory.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Eater of Clowns on January 03, 2016, 01:37:48 pm
I don't know if it counts as mansplaining, because whenever I encounter that word my brain goes to a far away place filled with more peaceful things, like famine and earth shattering meteors, but you could always do what I did. Whenever my horse's ass of a supervisor ran his mouth about some invariably dumb and grotesque idea he had, I would wait politely for him to finish then pantomime swinging an enormous mallet and yell "GOOOOOONNNNNG." He stays quieter these days.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: LMNO on January 03, 2016, 09:08:45 pm
I also want to repeat, again, that I brought that my friend up AS AN EXAMPLE of a commonplace occurrence, and that the point of this thread is not to solve an interpersonal problem.

However, one thing I have gotten from this thread is that if I do broach the subject with any mansplainer, I better sugar-coat the everloving fuck out of it, or it will all be my fault because his feelings will hurt.
 :lulz:


Sorry about that, Nigel.  I went back and realized the OP didn't ask for solutions.  I was thinking of this one, further down the page:

Also, a related question: should I tell my friend that he does this? Should I just be "you're mansplaining, friend, FYI"?


Anyway, I'm not sure I have much else to offer, but I'll keep thinking about it.  Thanks for bringing it up.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 05, 2016, 08:55:06 pm
I also want to repeat, again, that I brought that my friend up AS AN EXAMPLE of a commonplace occurrence, and that the point of this thread is not to solve an interpersonal problem.

However, one thing I have gotten from this thread is that if I do broach the subject with any mansplainer, I better sugar-coat the everloving fuck out of it, or it will all be my fault because his feelings will hurt.
 :lulz:


Sorry about that, Nigel.  I went back and realized the OP didn't ask for solutions.  I was thinking of this one, further down the page:

Also, a related question: should I tell my friend that he does this? Should I just be "you're mansplaining, friend, FYI"?


Anyway, I'm not sure I have much else to offer, but I'll keep thinking about it.  Thanks for bringing it up.

I think that in some cases the mind goes to "I will find a simple mechanical solution and offer an answer" instead of thinking about the larger issues around an issue, because it's easier, it's tidy. It's like the reflex that leads to statements that start "Well, they should just..." in response to large, complex issues. It's the reflex that leads to conspiracy theories, because someone in charge of making bad stuff happen in a completely controllable way is a lot more comforting than the idea that bad things happen and nobody's in control. Sometimes, if there isn't actually a simple solvable problem being presented, people will go so far as to unconsciously invent one, so as to be able to offer a simple solution and avoid thinking about the larger, more uncomfortable problem.

I think that's a huge part of what happened in this thread.

The people who are saying "We're your friends, you should give us the benefit of the doubt" are missing the point that this is about behavior, not personhood. Being my friend doesn't mean the behavior didn't happen. Being well-intentioned doesn't matter; what matters is being willing to examine the behavior, and the assumptions behind the behavior, and change it if appropriate. If you refuse to acknowledge that the behavior is a problem because you're not "like that", then you will continue doing it. Because almost nobody thinks of themselves as being "like that". Most people don't think they're racist, but they are. Most people don't think they're sexist, but they are. I'm sexist. It's built into the fabric of the culture that I was raised in. I consistently, reflexively expect Alty to open the door or carry something heavy for me, even though I'm stronger than he is.

We're all sexist, and the US in particular is a remarkably sexist nation. Special pleading doesn't change that. Being a feminist doesn't change it, either. The only thing that changes it is being willing to hear criticism and look at areas of our own behavior that we can consciously change, even when it's uncomfortable and makes us feel defensive. Being able to have an actual dialogue about it, without dumbing it down to pat individual-level "solutions", is a starting point.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 05, 2016, 08:57:44 pm
Donald Trump has taught people that doubling down works in all scenarios.

He definitely doesn't let being wrong stop him from anything. :lol:
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Nast on January 06, 2016, 06:14:30 am
I also want to repeat, again, that I brought that my friend up AS AN EXAMPLE of a commonplace occurrence, and that the point of this thread is not to solve an interpersonal problem.

However, one thing I have gotten from this thread is that if I do broach the subject with any mansplainer, I better sugar-coat the everloving fuck out of it, or it will all be my fault because his feelings will hurt.
 :lulz:


Sorry about that, Nigel.  I went back and realized the OP didn't ask for solutions.  I was thinking of this one, further down the page:

Also, a related question: should I tell my friend that he does this? Should I just be "you're mansplaining, friend, FYI"?


Anyway, I'm not sure I have much else to offer, but I'll keep thinking about it.  Thanks for bringing it up.

I think that in some cases the mind goes to "I will find a simple mechanical solution and offer an answer" instead of thinking about the larger issues around an issue, because it's easier, it's tidy. It's like the reflex that leads to statements that start "Well, they should just..." in response to large, complex issues. It's the reflex that leads to conspiracy theories, because someone in charge of making bad stuff happen in a completely controllable way is a lot more comforting than the idea that bad things happen and nobody's in control. Sometimes, if there isn't actually a simple solvable problem being presented, people will go so far as to unconsciously invent one, so as to be able to offer a simple solution and avoid thinking about the larger, more uncomfortable problem.

I think that's a huge part of what happened in this thread.

The people who are saying "We're your friends, you should give us the benefit of the doubt" are missing the point that this is about behavior, not personhood. Being my friend doesn't mean the behavior didn't happen. Being well-intentioned doesn't matter; what matters is being willing to examine the behavior, and the assumptions behind the behavior, and change it if appropriate. If you refuse to acknowledge that the behavior is a problem because you're not "like that", then you will continue doing it. Because almost nobody thinks of themselves as being "like that". Most people don't think they're racist, but they are. Most people don't think they're sexist, but they are. I'm sexist. It's built into the fabric of the culture that I was raised in. I consistently, reflexively expect Alty to open the door or carry something heavy for me, even though I'm stronger than he is.

We're all sexist, and the US in particular is a remarkably sexist nation. Special pleading doesn't change that. Being a feminist doesn't change it, either. The only thing that changes it is being willing to hear criticism and look at areas of our own behavior that we can consciously change, even when it's uncomfortable and makes us feel defensive. Being able to have an actual dialogue about it, without dumbing it down to pat individual-level "solutions", is a starting point.

Thank you, Nigel, for expounding on this. I'll definitely be thinking about this and trying to keep it in mind. I'll also try to be more careful in reading the context/intent of posts so as to avoid future putting-of-foot-into-mouth.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 06, 2016, 06:28:02 am
Thanks, Nast.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Emo Howard on January 07, 2016, 05:05:00 pm
I work with a guy (in an 8'X12' kiosk) who practices what may be the ultimate form of mansplaining: NARRATION. This is not the mere telling me of things that he should know I already know. He actually says out loud the things that are happening as they happen... WHILE I AM TRYING TO CONCENTRATE ON MAKING THE THINGS HAPPEN.

Example:

There's a guy at the window who wants $8 on pump 4. I repeat " Eight on pump four?" He says "yes", hands me a 20,  and reaches for the number pad while I am punching in 8 on 4 and quickly jab at the "Enter Alternate ID" button before the customer has a chance to put in his number to get his discount, because I have to do that before he starts putting in his number or else he has to do it again. I grab the 20 out of the drawer, punch it into the register, and hand him back two fives and two ones. The screen pops up a menu telling me he has up to 40 cents he can use as discount on his gas. I tell him this, and ask him if he wants to use any of it now or save it for later. He tells me he wants to use all of it, so I punch that in and say "Allright, you're all set. Thanks a lot!"

My co-worker is standing behind me the whole time saying " Yep, this guy's not gonna tell you he wants to put in his ID number, he's just going to start punching it in. Another 20? You might have enough to make a drop, now." (a "drop" is a bag of 25 $20 bills which is dropped into the safe) "You got alotta ones and fives in your drawer right now, this will help you out a little, there." (which is why I gave him two fives instead of a ten) "It's getting a little full. You got four bundles of ones under your drawer" (A bundle is 20 bills wrapped with some kind of paper strip. I put them there.) "and two clips of fives and probably enough for another clip there in your drawer." (A clip is 10 bills clipped with a paperclip. Again, I put them there.) "He's going to use all of that on $8 worth of gas? Why doesn't he save it for when he's getting a full tank? That car could hold 12 gallons, easy."

This isn't someone more experienced than I who would reasonably think that he's training me. I started on this job about two weeks before he did, and helped train him. I really don't think he's trying to tell me how to do my job, or anything. He just can't stop talking. He's saying out loud the words that are going through my head because they are the words that would be going through his head if he were standing where I am standing.

I think that, at least in some cases, mansplaining may be the result of guys trying to avoid awkward silence, or in this case, perfectly reasonable silence, which may have been awkward for him since he just didn't have a clearly defined role to play at the time. He was there mainly to take out trash, and cover me for lunch and breaks and for when I had to run to the store to reset the change bucket. This sometimes momentarily leaves us with two people, and only enough work for one, which I guess is uncomfortable for some people.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 08, 2016, 04:18:44 am
You know, in your situation I might actually kill him.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Chelagoras The Boulder on January 08, 2016, 05:45:20 am
alright, you want me to examine my prejudices? fine. I do that most days anyway working in mental health, but sure. I'm sorry for digging in, it was stupid. You dont wnat ot be given unasked for personal advice, fine i'm sorry and i'll try not to let it happen again

But one thing i would say is that, as a man i am tired of other people telling me how i feel. I'm tired of people picking apart my motivations to make me fit their view of social justice. I was excited when i first looked at this thread because i thought you might actually want a guys opinion on what makes a man mansplain, but then you shat all over my first point because you didnt like it (you didn't refute any of the things i said, you just ridiculed it) and seemed to only want a very specific response to the OP and when you didnt get it form every single person posting you threw a shit fit. I was all ready to open up a bit, and let some stuff out and when you did that i got defensive and the last thing i wanted was to be vulnerable in front of someone who's just gonna kick me in the metaphorical groin as soon as I do. but whatever, take from that what you will. Or kill me.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Meunster on January 08, 2016, 06:10:28 am
Whoa. Is that not how people talk? You give your bullshit to me i mention relevant information i kinda know, you mention something then it rolls from there.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 09, 2016, 03:50:27 am
alright, you want me to examine my prejudices? fine. I do that most days anyway working in mental health, but sure. I'm sorry for digging in, it was stupid. You dont wnat ot be given unasked for personal advice, fine i'm sorry and i'll try not to let it happen again

But one thing i would say is that, as a man i am tired of other people telling me how i feel. I'm tired of people picking apart my motivations to make me fit their view of social justice. I was excited when i first looked at this thread because i thought you might actually want a guys opinion on what makes a man mansplain, but then you shat all over my first point because you didnt like it (you didn't refute any of the things i said, you just ridiculed it) and seemed to only want a very specific response to the OP and when you didnt get it form every single person posting you threw a shit fit. I was all ready to open up a bit, and let some stuff out and when you did that i got defensive and the last thing i wanted was to be vulnerable in front of someone who's just gonna kick me in the metaphorical groin as soon as I do. but whatever, take from that what you will. Or kill me.

That's not actually what happened.. You wanna try reading the OP and actually paying attention this time, instead of assuming you already know what it's about?

And if you want to make a thread that's about how sick you are of being oppressed as a man, go for it.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Trivial on January 12, 2016, 04:54:57 am
(https://youtu.be/YU0rj6drXdI?t=166)

More like this?
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 12, 2016, 06:10:31 am
(https://youtu.be/YU0rj6drXdI?t=166)

More like this?

Img broken. :(
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Trivial on January 15, 2016, 01:41:13 am
(https://youtu.be/YU0rj6drXdI?t=166)

More like this?

Img broken. :(
https://youtu.be/YU0rj6drXdI?t=166 (https://youtu.be/YU0rj6drXdI?t=166)


 :argh!:
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on January 15, 2016, 04:50:21 am
(https://youtu.be/YU0rj6drXdI?t=166)

More like this?

Img broken. :(
https://youtu.be/YU0rj6drXdI?t=166 (https://youtu.be/YU0rj6drXdI?t=166)


 :argh!:

 :lulz:
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: PoFP on March 20, 2016, 08:17:34 pm
Not sure why I didn't see this thread before. This is definitely the first time I've heard this phenomenon defined by the term "Mansplaining." I assumed that term was created by the SJWs of Tumblr. Or at least stolen and ruined by them. Any word created by melding a common verb with "man" or "woman" usually tends to be blatantly sexist or based on victimhood absurdities. Not saying that is the case in this word. Just a generalization.

Anyways, I am bad for this. Really bad. But it's mostly due to an urge to be helpful and a non-stop, ever-changing train of thought. Most of the time, regardless of whether someone asked about information, if something pops into my head that's related, I'll say it out loud and then try to connect it to not look like a bumbling baboon. This usually fails quite badly, and I'm met with a barrage of blank looks.

Well, that's worst case scenario, which happens more than I'd like it to, but less often than I make it sound. I guess you could say the most common phenomenon is me making an accurate judgment on how much someone knows on a subject, or deciding whether their information on a subject could lead them to cause problems for themselves, and then inserting my view as a light suggestion or minor insight through conversation. It's only when I'm hyper that I'll just blurt shit out. That requires stimulation. When that happens, my train of thought becomes (I think Roger or Dok mentioned this) disjointed anyways.

Point is, I think this is more connected to ADHD symptoms. That makes me question my experiences' relevance to the current conversation, but it also makes me question whether or not the higher prevalence of similar ADHD symptoms in men correlates to the higher prevalence of this phenomenon in men. And now I'm questioning the validity of that statement due to under+over-diagnosis of ADHD.

I don't know. If something catches my interest, I like to throw my two cents in just in case it helps, and a lot because I can hardly help myself. I can hyper-focus on things that stimulate me at times and find it hard to switch gears until I've said everything I've ever wanted to say on the subject. I know this can be annoying for some people, and I accept that, so I generally don't mind if people just pretend to hear me talk until I'm done.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on March 21, 2016, 02:21:39 am
No one really disabused me of the notion that everything I have to say is relevant and interesting while I was growing up. Now I have to pick apart bad habits in my shitty, calcified adult brain.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 22, 2016, 10:32:30 pm
The critical element of mansplaining (the reason the tongue-in-cheek name stuck is because every woman has experienced it and it's so hilariously dead-on, if you've ever been on the receiving end) is the assumption, from out of the blue, that the person being explained to has no pre-existing knowledge of the subject even when it can reasonably be assumed that they know quite a bit; sort of like my friend explaining my cameras to me. MY cameras. Which I own, and use.

My favorite recent example, brought to my attention by the illustrious Alty, was a guy in line to see Deadpool explaining Deadpool's history to Gail Simone as she was also in line to see the movie. Because she is a lady, and this guy assumes that a lady in line to see Deadpool must not know anything about the character because that makes perfect sense. :?

Alty had to explain who Gail Simone was, because I am not a comics person, and then I LOLed and LOLed.

So an important element that I would love to get at is not only where the urge to share your knowledge comes from, but also from whence arises the assumption that the person on the receiving end, usually a woman, has no knowledge themselves.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Freeky on March 23, 2016, 03:02:01 am
I looked up who Gail Simone is, and then I :lulz:
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on March 23, 2016, 09:26:02 am
Quote
is the assumption, from out of the blue, that the person being explained to has no pre-existing knowledge of the subject

This is definitely a thing. I'd wrongly assumed it was fucking hilarious so I stand corrected on that point. I also wasn't aware it was only men who did this to women so it's good we now have a descriptive name for the phenomenon to clear that up.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Faust on March 23, 2016, 10:40:42 am
The critical element of mansplaining (the reason the tongue-in-cheek name stuck is because every woman has experienced it and it's so hilariously dead-on, if you've ever been on the receiving end) is the assumption, from out of the blue, that the person being explained to has no pre-existing knowledge of the subject even when it can reasonably be assumed that they know quite a bit; sort of like my friend explaining my cameras to me. MY cameras. Which I own, and use.

My favorite recent example, brought to my attention by the illustrious Alty, was a guy in line to see Deadpool explaining Deadpool's history to Gail Simone as she was also in line to see the movie. Because she is a lady, and this guy assumes that a lady in line to see Deadpool must not know anything about the character because that makes perfect sense. :?

Alty had to explain who Gail Simone was, because I am not a comics person, and then I LOLed and LOLed.

So an important element that I would love to get at is not only where the urge to share your knowledge comes from, but also from whence arises the assumption that the person on the receiving end, usually a woman, has no knowledge themselves.

Oh my god. Deadpool in his current portrayal wouldn't even exist without Gail, before that he had an underlying tone of dark comedy, but she's the one who actually made him funny. What a tool.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: MMIX on March 23, 2016, 12:30:46 pm
The critical element of mansplaining (the reason the tongue-in-cheek name stuck is because every woman has experienced it and it's so hilariously dead-on, if you've ever been on the receiving end) is the assumption, from out of the blue, that the person being explained to has no pre-existing knowledge of the subject even when it can reasonably be assumed that they know quite a bit; sort of like my friend explaining my cameras to me. MY cameras. Which I own, and use.

My favorite recent example, brought to my attention by the illustrious Alty, was a guy in line to see Deadpool explaining Deadpool's history to Gail Simone as she was also in line to see the movie. Because she is a lady, and this guy assumes that a lady in line to see Deadpool must not know anything about the character because that makes perfect sense. :?

Alty had to explain who Gail Simone was, because I am not a comics person, and then I LOLed and LOLed.

So an important element that I would love to get at is not only where the urge to share your knowledge comes from, but also from whence arises the assumption that the person on the receiving end, usually a woman, has no knowledge themselves.

Oh my god. Deadpool in his current portrayal wouldn't even exist without Gail, before that he had an underlying tone of dark comedy, but she's the one who actually made him funny. What a tool.

Here's a quote from Gail that sheds a bit more light than heat on the subject. She doesn't think the guy is a tool, just an over excited fan who wanted to burble about his hero, who he was waiting to see in a Movie.
Quote
ABOUT THE DEADPOOL THEATER INCIDENT

Okay, I’m re-posting this because it’s going to get buried in the actual massive thread of reblogs, which is up to 70k.
Here’s what happened. I mentioned that while I was in line to get tickets and popcorn at my local teeny town theater, the guy next to me started explaining who Deadpool was, because he just assumed I wouldn’t know.

 http://archive.is/y7WQU


I must admit I had to look Gail Simone up too. I don't really do comics but my partner insisted that we went to see Deadpool. If someone had buttonholed me then I wouldn't have known a thing, if they'd buttonholed my partner and gushed at her she would just have said "I know" and fan-squeed back at him about the movie. I guess that wasn't really an option open to Gail. I am also not totally convinced by her position, but you know she was actually there and she wrote the original tweet 'cos she thought the gutys behaviour was "cute" so I guess we should accept her opinion on this

I was struck by the sheer volume of hits I got from googling "gail simone & mansplaining" and the fact that they dated back over nearly a decade and since the Deadpool one isn't as clear cut as it originally seemed to be I thought this one was an interesting example:-
Quote
Matt Damon Interrupts Successful Black Woman Filmmaker to Explain Diversity to Her/quote]

And the black filmaker on the receiving end of this?
 "Effie Brown, an experienced Hollywood producer and a black woman. She has produced seventeen feature films, including Dear White People" - you couldn't make it up.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Faust on March 23, 2016, 02:21:58 pm
Ahh thats interesting. Funny that; I automatically assume the guy is dopey for explaining the character to her, without even thinking to check what Gail said on that.
And also that my reaction, echo'd across the internet often in much meaner ways.... from the sounds of things the poor guys gotten a lot of abuse when all he was doing was the goony gushing over a character he was passionate about.

Yeah, not surprised that you find a lot for her on google for over the years, she's been active in discussions on gender roles in comics for a long time, if I recall correctly she was the person who coined the term Women in Refrigerators (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Refrigerators) concept for the victimisation of women in comics a story prop used for dramatic purpose of a male characters storyline, wife,girlfriend killed, kidnapped/depowered etc. It was good cause it kind of helped mitigate a very dull story cliché
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 23, 2016, 08:31:20 pm
The critical element of mansplaining (the reason the tongue-in-cheek name stuck is because every woman has experienced it and it's so hilariously dead-on, if you've ever been on the receiving end) is the assumption, from out of the blue, that the person being explained to has no pre-existing knowledge of the subject even when it can reasonably be assumed that they know quite a bit; sort of like my friend explaining my cameras to me. MY cameras. Which I own, and use.

My favorite recent example, brought to my attention by the illustrious Alty, was a guy in line to see Deadpool explaining Deadpool's history to Gail Simone as she was also in line to see the movie. Because she is a lady, and this guy assumes that a lady in line to see Deadpool must not know anything about the character because that makes perfect sense. :?

Alty had to explain who Gail Simone was, because I am not a comics person, and then I LOLed and LOLed.

So an important element that I would love to get at is not only where the urge to share your knowledge comes from, but also from whence arises the assumption that the person on the receiving end, usually a woman, has no knowledge themselves.

Oh my god. Deadpool in his current portrayal wouldn't even exist without Gail, before that he had an underlying tone of dark comedy, but she's the one who actually made him funny. What a tool.

Here's a quote from Gail that sheds a bit more light than heat on the subject. She doesn't think the guy is a tool, just an over excited fan who wanted to burble about his hero, who he was waiting to see in a Movie.
Quote
ABOUT THE DEADPOOL THEATER INCIDENT

Okay, I’m re-posting this because it’s going to get buried in the actual massive thread of reblogs, which is up to 70k.
Here’s what happened. I mentioned that while I was in line to get tickets and popcorn at my local teeny town theater, the guy next to me started explaining who Deadpool was, because he just assumed I wouldn’t know.

 http://archive.is/y7WQU


I know, I read all of that. The fact that she doesn't think he was being a tool doesn't negate the fact that it was absolutely classic mansplaining; telling a woman in line at a movie about the main character in the movie, assuming she simply doesn't know without asking. It doesn't make the guy a tool, it just means that he was mansplaining. The fact that it was Gail Simone just adds to the hilarity.


Quote
I must admit I had to look Gail Simone up too. I don't really do comics but my partner insisted that we went to see Deadpool. If someone had buttonholed me then I wouldn't have known a thing, if they'd buttonholed my partner and gushed at her she would just have said "I know" and fan-squeed back at him about the movie. I guess that wasn't really an option open to Gail. I am also not totally convinced by her position, but you know she was actually there and she wrote the original tweet 'cos she thought the gutys behaviour was "cute" so I guess we should accept her opinion on this

I was struck by the sheer volume of hits I got from googling "gail simone & mansplaining" and the fact that they dated back over nearly a decade and since the Deadpool one isn't as clear cut as it originally seemed to be I thought this one was an interesting example:-
Quote
Matt Damon Interrupts Successful Black Woman Filmmaker to Explain Diversity to Her

And the black filmaker on the receiving end of this?
 "Effie Brown, an experienced Hollywood producer and a black woman. She has produced seventeen feature films, including Dear White People" - you couldn't make it up.

Now that guy just might be a tool... but then again, mansplaining alone does not a tool make. Does being socially conditioned to explain things to women as if they are clueless make the individual a tool? I don't think so, personally.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Faust on March 24, 2016, 12:18:27 pm
Yeah, mansplaining on own doesn't make someone a tool. And this guy didn't have any ill intentions. Regardless of that though, regardless even of gender, going up to the writer who worked on something for years to give them the basics is like something out of a cringe comedy.

"So you see Mr King, the secret to selling a decent quantity of books is as follows...."
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 26, 2016, 12:53:25 am
Yeah, mansplaining on own doesn't make someone a tool. And this guy didn't have any ill intentions. Regardless of that though, regardless even of gender, going up to the writer who worked on something for years to give them the basics is like something out of a cringe comedy.

"So you see Mr King, the secret to selling a decent quantity of books is as follows...."

Yeah, pretty much that exactly.  :lulz: It kinda makes you laugh, and also kinda makes you feel incredibly sorry for the guy because ouch.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 26, 2016, 04:59:26 am
Quote
is the assumption, from out of the blue, that the person being explained to has no pre-existing knowledge of the subject

This is definitely a thing. I'd wrongly assumed it was fucking hilarious so I stand corrected on that point. I also wasn't aware it was only men who did this to women so it's good we now have a descriptive name for the phenomenon to clear that up.

I am fairly certain that at no point did anyone say that only men do this to women.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on March 26, 2016, 07:39:33 am
Maybe it was the name. Not totally convinced attaching a gender prefix is helpful in this instance. "assplaining" might have worked better
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on March 26, 2016, 04:48:22 pm
Maybe it was the name. Not totally convinced attaching a gender prefix is helpful in this instance. "assplaining" might have worked better

As I said, it was a humorous name that stuck because it's such a pervasively common phenomenon experienced by women from men.

Do you really need to #notallmen this one?
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: PoFP on March 26, 2016, 05:46:10 pm
The critical element of mansplaining (the reason the tongue-in-cheek name stuck is because every woman has experienced it and it's so hilariously dead-on, if you've ever been on the receiving end) is the assumption, from out of the blue, that the person being explained to has no pre-existing knowledge of the subject even when it can reasonably be assumed that they know quite a bit; sort of like my friend explaining my cameras to me. MY cameras. Which I own, and use.

My favorite recent example, brought to my attention by the illustrious Alty, was a guy in line to see Deadpool explaining Deadpool's history to Gail Simone as she was also in line to see the movie. Because she is a lady, and this guy assumes that a lady in line to see Deadpool must not know anything about the character because that makes perfect sense. :?

Alty had to explain who Gail Simone was, because I am not a comics person, and then I LOLed and LOLed.

So an important element that I would love to get at is not only where the urge to share your knowledge comes from, but also from whence arises the assumption that the person on the receiving end, usually a woman, has no knowledge themselves.

Ehh, I catch myself doing this on occasion and state, out loud, that I'm doing it and will stop now. Or, I preface a statement with "I assume, because you are a [Insert name of specialization], then you probably understand [Insert background topic related to point]. *Wait for general confirmation gesture or statement* Well, [Insert personal perspective of topic]."

I also try to use generalized, suggestive language to prompt people to show whether or not they are knowledgeable on a subject. If they don't respond, I assume they know little. If they do respond and give a general perspective in return, then I can assume they know a somewhat decent amount.

Problem is, this method falls victim to the SGitRs who will attempt to give generalized perspectives in return regardless of their knowledge. And they won't admit to not knowing much about the subject. As has been mentioned before, they are a lost cause, so I just play pretend like you would a child.

Also, SGitRs are generally easy to spot before a conversation gets this far anyways.
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: trix on July 11, 2016, 03:48:53 pm
Thank you for this thread.

My girlfriend and I were unaware of the term "mansplaining" but after reading this thread it is exactly what she means when she tells me "you're doing that condescending thing you do again".

We used to fight over this, because she felt belittled as though I assume she knows nothing about anything, and I felt defensive because from my point of view I thought I was trying to be helpful, useful, and knowledgeable, and I couldn't seem to understand in what way I was being condescending.  So, with the godlike patience she possesses towards me, she continued to point it out each time I started doing it to her or our friends (I was not selective about target, male, female, I mansplain to EVERYONE) and slowly I have come to accept that I am, in fact, a condescending jackass way more than I ever realized.  Now is where I get defensive and point out that quite a lot of the conversations I have with people are in the context of explaining why their computer or electronic device doesn't work and how to fix it, but the fact of the matter is that I simply fail to give thought to whether or not the person I am speaking to might already know what I'm explaining, and I then proceed to explain as though they had no idea.

We've been working on it for awhile now but I still do this constantly.  I think part of the problem is I still get defensive sometimes when my girlfriend points it out, as though my knowledge and usefulness were being rejected even though I know that's not actually the case.  I think this has caused her to only point it out when it's especially irritating to her, which means a lot of my condescending jackassery goes unchecked.

It is REALLY hard for someone like me to realize when I am mansplaining.  I constantly battle a large, deeply ingrained case of SGiTR in myself, and I think it contributes to my ignorance towards my mansplaining.  It's actually very rare I catch myself at it rather than my gf pointing it out to me.  I've learned to simply shut up when she plays League of Legends, for example, because I cannot seem to resist giving her tips on playing or warning her of what the character against her is capable of, despite the fact that she is much better than me at that game.

Which also makes it more difficult in that context... I've been playing League of Legends for years, and played heavily the Warcraft 3 mod it came from (DotA), yet in the three months she's been playing LoL, my gf is far better than me at it.  I can handle that, but it does make me more apt to try to mansplain to her in that context, as I taught her how to play and am both proud of how good she's gotten and humbled at how much better than me she already is.

Well, pain is learning.  Hopefully she will keep beating me with the stick and I will grow and learn.  This problem of mine I don't think I can tackle without someone verbally whacking me when I start doing it.

Anyway just my take on the OP.  Thanks for this thread, I will show my gf when she gets home, hopefully she will enjoy having a fresh term to address it directly, rather than  "you went into condescending jackass mode again".
Title: Re: Mansplaining: Why?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on July 12, 2016, 01:25:45 am
Glad to hear this was useful for you!