Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Apple Talk => Topic started by: PoFP on August 26, 2016, 02:17:47 am

Title: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: PoFP on August 26, 2016, 02:17:47 am
Is it selfish to want your significant other to avoid talking about marriage or kids if they are willing to give up that possibility for a long-distance, permanent job offer?

Because I don't have a problem with my girlfriend taking the job offer if it possibly means us not being together. I couldn't live with myself if I found out that I kept her from a successful job offer she considered. But is it selfish to want her to NOT bring up the idea of permanent commitments if she is willing to take that job at all costs? Could you marry or have kids with someone who would be willing to give that up for a job offer that ends your relationship? Am I just being an asshole?
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 26, 2016, 03:36:28 am
Since neither has yet happened, it sounds like both are still on the table. Are you asking her to pick one or the other?
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: PoFP on August 26, 2016, 04:18:17 am
Since neither has yet happened, it sounds like both are still on the table. Are you asking her to pick one or the other?

God no. In fact, both are possible simultaneously. She's just made it clear that if the offer comes, she's going to take it, even if it means we're not together. There's a slim chance that I could find a job where she would be, but that's a big if. I immediately considered all things I could do, including possibly giving up what I wanted my career to be. But she didn't even question it for a second. She wondered why I asked how long she'd be gone for a long-distance internship. Which is a demonstration that you are not dedicated enough to someone or the relationship to have kids or get married, at least not any time soon.

And, as I said, I told her that it's completely fine to take the job if it means we aren't together. I just don't think she should lead me to believe that she is willing to make a permanent commitment when she's openly willing to throw it all away.

It's not that I disagree with such a decision, I just want us to be realistic and honest with each other about how important our relationship is to each other. After hearing how easily she'd have given it all up for the job, it made me feel cheated for all this time that she's spoken of marriage and kids. I felt safe and got VERY VERY attached, and I would be devastated now, if she kept up the marriage talk and then left me for the job. At least if she was more realistic with me now, then her leaving in the future wouldn't be so hard, and wouldn't seem so disingenuous. But she doesn't seem to understand commitment, so she thinks that it's ok to talk about these permanent commitments when she's willing to walk away for something else.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 26, 2016, 04:27:13 am
She's just made it clear that if the offer comes, she's going to take it, even if it means we're not together. There's a slim chance that I could find a job where she would be, but that's a big if. I immediately considered all things I could do, including possibly giving up what I wanted my career to be. But she didn't even question it for a second.

Well, sounds like you have some value judgements to make, because I don't think she is callous so much as seeing her dream job right there.  It's possible that she's playing dominance games, but there isn't enough information available for me even to guess.  If she is, run, do not walk.  If she's not, you have to decide if you can tolerate a period of time as her second priority.  It happens, and it's not the end of the world.

But yeah, if you aren't each others first priority, for fuck's sake don't even consider having kids.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: LMNO on August 26, 2016, 04:44:10 am
Also, marriage and kids are waaaay different things. It might be her way of confirming you'd still be in a committed relationship even if she was away for a while. Or, she's pointing out that such a thing is impossible, and you should split as friends. I don't know enough about you two to tell.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Suu on August 26, 2016, 07:24:51 am
On the bright side, it seems like you guys have already been talking about this, which is good.

On the down side, you still need to talk. I wouldn't so much call you "selfish" as apprehensive. You're been wary of the unknown, which seems to me that if she's already at the stage of discussing these massive life steps, you may not be on the same level. This isn't a bad thing, but you guys NEED to be on the same level when it comes to marriage, and then children. I would say it would be okay to offer her a polite suggestion to hold off on the long term planning until you see what happens with the job if you feel it's hitting a particular nerve.

You're not in the wrong, you just have a different view on what's important in the here and now, versus your girlfriend, who is, as my cousin the shrink calls it, "renewing the contract." Clearly, she wants to be with you for the long haul, but, she also wants this job. Both of these are awesome things, except that part where she said you'll go out with tomorrow's trash if she has to in order to move. That raised a red flag. I don't think she understands the obstacles of a long-distance relationship.

I don't know how long you two have been together, and forgive me if I overlooked it, but it's easy to talk about and romanticize a future when you're earlier in the relationship. This can lead to some trouble if you rush into things.

Has she said, out loud, that she wants you to come with her? If she hasn't, I'd reconsider staying with her.

In short, this requires a serious, sit-down conversation.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: LuciferX on August 26, 2016, 07:50:19 am
Quote
It's not that I disagree with such a decision, I just want us to be realistic and honest with each other about how important our relationship is to each other. After hearing how easily she'd have given it all up for the job, it made me feel cheated for all this time that she's spoken of marriage and kids. I felt safe and got VERY VERY attached, and I would be devastated now, if she kept up the marriage talk and then left me for the job. At least if she was more realistic with me now, then her leaving in the future wouldn't be so hard, and wouldn't seem so disingenuous. But she doesn't seem to understand commitment, so she thinks that it's ok to talk about these permanent commitments when she's willing to walk away for something else.

Projecting a long distance relationship by way of an emphasis on being "VERY VERY attached" seems like a contradiction worth exploring before directly confronting her about it?
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: PoFP on August 26, 2016, 04:07:47 pm
She's just made it clear that if the offer comes, she's going to take it, even if it means we're not together. There's a slim chance that I could find a job where she would be, but that's a big if. I immediately considered all things I could do, including possibly giving up what I wanted my career to be. But she didn't even question it for a second.

Well, sounds like you have some value judgements to make, because I don't think she is callous so much as seeing her dream job right there.  It's possible that she's playing dominance games, but there isn't enough information available for me even to guess.  If she is, run, do not walk.  If she's not, you have to decide if you can tolerate a period of time as her second priority.  It happens, and it's not the end of the world.

But yeah, if you aren't each others first priority, for fuck's sake don't even consider having kids.

I think it's much less dominance games, and much more not understanding the level of commitment she is talking about. I can definitely tolerate being her second priority. It'll hurt, but I'll tolerate it. I just want that to be clear. I don't want to pretend that I'm her first priority until she gets the job offer, and then have to say goodbye.

Thank you for your input. The underlined was my initial thought when this whole situation started. It's the driving force behind this entire disagreement.

Also, marriage and kids are waaaay different things. It might be her way of confirming you'd still be in a committed relationship even if she was away for a while. Or, she's pointing out that such a thing is impossible, and you should split as friends. I don't know enough about you two to tell.

She definitely wants a committed relationship, and has stated that she wants me to move out with her. The thing is, it's easy for her to say that since she'd be the one with the guaranteed job, and the support group in-house (She has an uncle out where the job would be).

On the bright side, it seems like you guys have already been talking about this, which is good.

On the down side, you still need to talk. I wouldn't so much call you "selfish" as apprehensive. You're been wary of the unknown, which seems to me that if she's already at the stage of discussing these massive life steps, you may not be on the same level. This isn't a bad thing, but you guys NEED to be on the same level when it comes to marriage, and then children. I would say it would be okay to offer her a polite suggestion to hold off on the long term planning until you see what happens with the job if you feel it's hitting a particular nerve.

You're not in the wrong, you just have a different view on what's important in the here and now, versus your girlfriend, who is, as my cousin the shrink calls it, "renewing the contract." Clearly, she wants to be with you for the long haul, but, she also wants this job. Both of these are awesome things, except that part where she said you'll go out with tomorrow's trash if she has to in order to move. That raised a red flag. I don't think she understands the obstacles of a long-distance relationship.

I don't know how long you two have been together, and forgive me if I overlooked it, but it's easy to talk about and romanticize a future when you're earlier in the relationship. This can lead to some trouble if you rush into things.

Has she said, out loud, that she wants you to come with her? If she hasn't, I'd reconsider staying with her.

In short, this requires a serious, sit-down conversation.

Boom: This is what I told her initially.

Also, I believe your interpretation of the situation is quite accurate, regarding her feelings. This is a relationship going on 2 and half or so years. We are both young (She's 19 and I'm 20), so this may actually seem kinda silly. I don't know.

She does definitely want me to come with her. She made that clear as well. But she was unwilling to consider alternatives. Her first thought when I brought up the idea that I didn't want to restart my career by moving some place I don't have a guaranteed job (I've made a lot of progress in the last year or so.), was that we would just have to break up. Whereas my first thought when considering my options was that I'd have to restart and become ruthless in acquiring a new job and moving up in it. To make up for the restart, I'd have to expend more time an energy on the job than I could possibly expend on her. She would have to become my second priority. And I don't want that.

She also stated that she feels like if she turned down a job to stay with me, that she'd regret it in the future. I agreed with her on that. I told her that that is an ok thing to feel, no matter how much it hurt me. But I told her that she can't talk about long term commitments with that mentality. Those two things are incompatible, and it is unfair to me to imply that both are certain when they obviously aren't.

Quote
It's not that I disagree with such a decision, I just want us to be realistic and honest with each other about how important our relationship is to each other. After hearing how easily she'd have given it all up for the job, it made me feel cheated for all this time that she's spoken of marriage and kids. I felt safe and got VERY VERY attached, and I would be devastated now, if she kept up the marriage talk and then left me for the job. At least if she was more realistic with me now, then her leaving in the future wouldn't be so hard, and wouldn't seem so disingenuous. But she doesn't seem to understand commitment, so she thinks that it's ok to talk about these permanent commitments when she's willing to walk away for something else.

Projecting a long distance relationship by way of an emphasis on being "VERY VERY attached" seems like a contradiction worth exploring before directly confronting her about it?

It's not a long-distance relationship, nor is it planned to be. I think one of us has misread/misunderstood something.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on August 26, 2016, 04:15:56 pm
I don't see anything wrong with her career being the top priority, and if you won't or can't move then letting go of the relationship. I don't see anything wrong with saying that she would prefer if you came along and had all this commitment stuff with her there. Marriage is not about sacrificing your life for someone else.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: PoFP on August 26, 2016, 05:42:44 pm
I don't see anything wrong with her career being the top priority, and if you won't or can't move then letting go of the relationship. I don't see anything wrong with saying that she would prefer if you came along and had all this commitment stuff with her there. Marriage is not about sacrificing your life for someone else.

I agree with most of this. However, I don't see how it's fair to marry someone you wouldn't make your first priority. It's ok to want the commitment where the new job would be. It's a whole other thing to talk about those things knowing you'd give up the consideration if it wasn't possible for the other person to move with you.

I don't want to hear about permanent commitments from the other person in the relationship if it's obvious that they aren't as committed as I am, or aren't completely dedicated to such commitments. As you said, there's nothing at all wrong with having other commitments. I just don't wanna hear about something as important and permanent as marriage and kids if it's not the most important thing to you. Because that's the only way things like that work. You can't have a marriage or kids if your priorities are not those things. She can find those priorities later in life if she wants, after her other priorities are achieved. But I'm not going to be lied to about someone's commitment level. I'm not going to be told we're going to be together forever if they don't mean that 100%.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: LuciferX on August 26, 2016, 07:05:57 pm

...

She also stated that she feels like if she turned down a job to stay with me, that she'd regret it in the future. I agreed with her on that. I told her that that is an ok thing to feel, no matter how much it hurt me. But I told her that she can't talk about long term commitments with that mentality. Those two things are incompatible, and it is unfair to me to imply that both are certain when they obviously aren't.

Quote
It's not that I disagree with such a decision, I just want us to be realistic and honest with each other about how important our relationship is to each other. After hearing how easily she'd have given it all up for the job, it made me feel cheated for all this time that she's spoken of marriage and kids. I felt safe and got VERY VERY attached, and I would be devastated now, if she kept up the marriage talk and then left me for the job. At least if she was more realistic with me now, then her leaving in the future wouldn't be so hard, and wouldn't seem so disingenuous. But she doesn't seem to understand commitment, so she thinks that it's ok to talk about these permanent commitments when she's willing to walk away for something else.

Projecting a long distance relationship by way of an emphasis on being "VERY VERY attached" seems like a contradiction worth exploring before directly confronting her about it?

It's not a long-distance relationship, nor is it planned to be. I think one of us has misread/misunderstood something.
My bad.  I thought you were getting upset at how the possibility of her moving defies your consideration of a comprehensive commitment.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Suu on August 27, 2016, 12:41:31 am
Couple things:

1: You guys are wicked young. 19 and 20? Here's the godawful truth: Your lives are going to change over 9000 times before you turn 30. Fuck, they're going to change at least half that before you're mature enough to get married. Now, I'm not saying you cannot and should not consider marriage at a young age, everybody's relationship is different, however, I married at 24 and in retrospect, I was too damn young. That lasted for 2 years before we separated, and it was  shitty experience. I got married again at 32, and I'm a completely different person now. The way I communicate with my husband is different, the way we manage our lives is different, and that's not throwing the military, and the bouts of true long-distance relationship in the mix.

2: Long-distance is hard as fuck. Now, again, my example is not your life. But from my perspective of looking back at myself at age 20, I would have failed miserably at this. For the majority of our marriage and a good portion of our dating, my husband has been at some distance. While I wouldn't call the time he was in Portsmouth while I was still in Providence long-distance, he did spend 3 months in Guam for training, and then 7 months in San Diego while I was still in Portsmouth. In that time, we saw each other twice. This of course does not count for any underways or deployments, which are their own animals and aren't comparable. 
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on August 27, 2016, 01:11:34 am
I don't see anything wrong with her career being the top priority, and if you won't or can't move then letting go of the relationship. I don't see anything wrong with saying that she would prefer if you came along and had all this commitment stuff with her there. Marriage is not about sacrificing your life for someone else.

I agree with most of this. However, I don't see how it's fair to marry someone you wouldn't make your first priority. It's ok to want the commitment where the new job would be. It's a whole other thing to talk about those things knowing you'd give up the consideration if it wasn't possible for the other person to move with you.

I don't want to hear about permanent commitments from the other person in the relationship if it's obvious that they aren't as committed as I am, or aren't completely dedicated to such commitments. As you said, there's nothing at all wrong with having other commitments. I just don't wanna hear about something as important and permanent as marriage and kids if it's not the most important thing to you. Because that's the only way things like that work. You can't have a marriage or kids if your priorities are not those things. She can find those priorities later in life if she wants, after her other priorities are achieved. But I'm not going to be lied to about someone's commitment level. I'm not going to be told we're going to be together forever if they don't mean that 100%.

Marriage is not about sacrificing your life for someone else.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Suu on August 27, 2016, 03:56:43 am
I don't see anything wrong with her career being the top priority, and if you won't or can't move then letting go of the relationship. I don't see anything wrong with saying that she would prefer if you came along and had all this commitment stuff with her there. Marriage is not about sacrificing your life for someone else.

I agree with most of this. However, I don't see how it's fair to marry someone you wouldn't make your first priority. It's ok to want the commitment where the new job would be. It's a whole other thing to talk about those things knowing you'd give up the consideration if it wasn't possible for the other person to move with you.

I don't want to hear about permanent commitments from the other person in the relationship if it's obvious that they aren't as committed as I am, or aren't completely dedicated to such commitments. As you said, there's nothing at all wrong with having other commitments. I just don't wanna hear about something as important and permanent as marriage and kids if it's not the most important thing to you. Because that's the only way things like that work. You can't have a marriage or kids if your priorities are not those things. She can find those priorities later in life if she wants, after her other priorities are achieved. But I'm not going to be lied to about someone's commitment level. I'm not going to be told we're going to be together forever if they don't mean that 100%.

Marriage is not about sacrificing your life for someone else.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 27, 2016, 04:58:47 am
Marriage is not about sacrificing your life for someone else.

This is absolutely true, but I am unsure a marriage can last if the family isn't the first priority.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: LuciferX on August 27, 2016, 06:08:50 am
All the above.  And I love what Alan Watts describes as/in "The Wisdom of Insecurity".
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 27, 2016, 12:23:46 pm
Marriage is not about sacrificing your life for someone else.

This is absolutely true, but I am unsure a marriage can last if the family isn't the first priority.

This is probably correct. I'm sure we've all seen relationships where one party is more invested than the other and it becomes fucking horrible when kids/dependents/major sacrifices are involved. Any of those and many more can lead to a bitter shitshow.

There are other points to remark on, particularly in regards to ages and careers but I am unsure HD you want to be lectured at by horrible old people.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on August 27, 2016, 01:14:39 pm
Marriage is not about sacrificing your life for someone else.

This is absolutely true, but I am unsure a marriage can last if the family isn't the first priority.

Sure, once commitments have been made and plans have been hashed out for how both parties want to build their life together, that has to carry weight. They're not there yet, though, this is the negotiation phase. She's 19 and trying to start her career, and for some reason likes this chump enough to hope that he'll be there with her. And he's bitching that their relationship as TEENAGERS isn't enough for her to abandon her dream job over, like he ate some True Wuv bullshit and hasn't vomited it back up yet.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: PoFP on August 27, 2016, 01:55:50 pm
Couple things:

1: You guys are wicked young. 19 and 20? Here's the godawful truth: Your lives are going to change over 9000 times before you turn 30. Fuck, they're going to change at least half that before you're mature enough to get married. Now, I'm not saying you cannot and should not consider marriage at a young age, everybody's relationship is different, however, I married at 24 and in retrospect, I was too damn young. That lasted for 2 years before we separated, and it was  shitty experience. I got married again at 32, and I'm a completely different person now. The way I communicate with my husband is different, the way we manage our lives is different, and that's not throwing the military, and the bouts of true long-distance relationship in the mix.

2: Long-distance is hard as fuck. Now, again, my example is not your life. But from my perspective of looking back at myself at age 20, I would have failed miserably at this. For the majority of our marriage and a good portion of our dating, my husband has been at some distance. While I wouldn't call the time he was in Portsmouth while I was still in Providence long-distance, he did spend 3 months in Guam for training, and then 7 months in San Diego while I was still in Portsmouth. In that time, we saw each other twice. This of course does not count for any underways or deployments, which are their own animals and aren't comparable.

Oh, we're definitely too young now, for marriage and kids. I'm mostly conflicted with the idea of considering marriage and kids before you reach the milestones that are highest in priority to you. I guess I started this whole thing with my feelings and justification for those feelings, instead of what I wanted to happen, and my justifications.

I want her to take that job offer if she gets the chance. I want her to move on if she has to. Whether I am able to move out with her or not shouldn't matter AT ALL. I want her to forget about marriage and kids until that milestone is achieved, otherwise she will never be truly dedicated to a family lifestyle. By considering marriage and kids before that milestone, she is pretending that the significance of of that potential family life outweighs her obviously higher priority of a career. Either that, or she is lying to herself, and by cause and effect, lying to me. I don't want to consider marriage and children with someone whom I know is quite easily going to leave me within the next couple of years for bigger and better things. That would not be fair to her, and it would not be fair to me.

I've made it clear to her that long distance is not an option. Not for any longer than a few months, anyways. Hence, why I encourage her to go take an internship far away if it forwards her career, and that I will be here for her when she gets back. As you said, as you got older, the way you and your husband communicate and manage your lives is completely different. I know for a fact that neither me, nor my girlfriend are capable of a long-distance relationship like that, because we're not experienced enough for that. I can easily tell the difference between a young relationship, and the long successful ones that I try to mimic. There is certainly something(s) missing in this current relationship that I see in those eternal ones. It could be something that just comes as the relationship ages. It may be because we're young and stupid. I won't know for sure until much later.

Marriage is not about sacrificing your life for someone else.

I agree, and that is why I've encouraged her to take the offer regardless of our relationship. I've made that fact very clear.

Marriage is not about sacrificing your life for someone else.

This is absolutely true, but I am unsure a marriage can last if the family isn't the first priority.

This is probably correct. I'm sure we've all seen relationships where one party is more invested than the other and it becomes fucking horrible when kids/dependents/major sacrifices are involved. Any of those and many more can lead to a bitter shitshow.

There are other points to remark on, particularly in regards to ages and careers but I am unsure HD you want to be lectured at by horrible old people.

Yeah, I've lived through it. I've been on the receiving end as a dependent. And I will alienate myself before I let something like that happen to a child of mine.

Marriage is not about sacrificing your life for someone else.

This is absolutely true, but I am unsure a marriage can last if the family isn't the first priority.

Sure, once commitments have been made and plans have been hashed out for how both parties want to build their life together, that has to carry weight. They're not there yet, though, this is the negotiation phase. She's 19 and trying to start her career, and for some reason likes this chump enough to hope that he'll be there with her. And he's bitching that their relationship as TEENAGERS isn't enough for her to abandon her dream job over, like he ate some True Wuv bullshit and hasn't vomited it back up yet.

You know, I'm gonna give you the benefit of the doubt, because you're generally an amazing person, and you never usually talk shit unless there's a reason for it. I'm going to assume that you've simply misread something, or didn't pay as much attention as you normally do. I appreciate your input more than most, and I will take it to heart. But let me make myself clear:

I've stated more than once now, that I DON'T want her to abandon her job offer for the relationship. I simply don't want to hear about permanent commitments until she is permanently committed. I will break up with her myself to get her to take that goddamn job offer. It would hurt, but when she got older, she would eventually appreciate the decision. I just don't want to pretend that it isn't the most important thing in her life right now. It's not fair to me. And it's not fair to her. Lying to both of us about her priorities is potential for a disastrous shit-show, and one that I will take no part in.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on August 27, 2016, 02:04:02 pm
What are you talking about? I talk shit all the time  :lulz:

Seriously though, she's talking about building her life, and she wants you in it, so why the long face? She's not pretending anything from what you've said, she's got things she wants and she's communicating that with you. If you want those things too, awesome. If you're convinced this is the train to breakup town and she's deluding herself, well then break up and be sad about it. (And I definitely will not give you shit about being sad about it, breakups suck ass)
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: PoFP on August 27, 2016, 02:30:37 pm
What are you talking about? I talk shit all the time  :lulz:

Seriously though, she's talking about building her life, and she wants you in it, so why the long face? She's not pretending anything from what you've said, she's got things she wants and she's communicating that with you. If you want those things too, awesome. If you're convinced this is the train to breakup town and she's deluding herself, well then break up and be sad about it. (And I definitely will not give you shit about being sad about it, breakups suck ass)

For the same reason I can't expect her to abandon her career for me, it would be unfair to expect me to abandon mine for her. There is simply a very large chance that I won't be able to move out with her if that time comes. She can want commitment AND the job all she wants, and I would love it more than anything if she could have both. But one simply can't happen until the opportunity for the other has been taken, or has passed. She has other priorities, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 27, 2016, 06:05:55 pm
I don't see anything wrong with her career being the top priority, and if you won't or can't move then letting go of the relationship. I don't see anything wrong with saying that she would prefer if you came along and had all this commitment stuff with her there. Marriage is not about sacrificing your life for someone else.

This.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 27, 2016, 06:20:15 pm
I don't see anything wrong with her career being the top priority, and if you won't or can't move then letting go of the relationship. I don't see anything wrong with saying that she would prefer if you came along and had all this commitment stuff with her there. Marriage is not about sacrificing your life for someone else.

I agree with most of this. However, I don't see how it's fair to marry someone you wouldn't make your first priority. It's ok to want the commitment where the new job would be. It's a whole other thing to talk about those things knowing you'd give up the consideration if it wasn't possible for the other person to move with you.

I don't want to hear about permanent commitments from the other person in the relationship if it's obvious that they aren't as committed as I am, or aren't completely dedicated to such commitments. As you said, there's nothing at all wrong with having other commitments. I just don't wanna hear about something as important and permanent as marriage and kids if it's not the most important thing to you. Because that's the only way things like that work. You can't have a marriage or kids if your priorities are not those things. She can find those priorities later in life if she wants, after her other priorities are achieved. But I'm not going to be lied to about someone's commitment level. I'm not going to be told we're going to be together forever if they don't mean that 100%.

It sounds like you want her to prioritize you over her career.

It also sounds like you refuse to prioritize her over your career.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 27, 2016, 06:25:47 pm
Marriage is not about sacrificing your life for someone else.

This is absolutely true, but I am unsure a marriage can last if the family isn't the first priority.

Sure, once commitments have been made and plans have been hashed out for how both parties want to build their life together, that has to carry weight. They're not there yet, though, this is the negotiation phase. She's 19 and trying to start her career, and for some reason likes this chump enough to hope that he'll be there with her. And he's bitching that their relationship as TEENAGERS isn't enough for her to abandon her dream job over, like he ate some True Wuv bullshit and hasn't vomited it back up yet.

And also this.

He is also being supremely hypocritical, as essentially he is saying that he isn't committed enough to the relationship to go with her, but is mad at her for being willing to leave him behind if he refuses to go. It's some childish bullshit.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 27, 2016, 06:26:18 pm
Manipulative, head-gamey, childish bullshit. She should dump him and go pursue her career, and find an adult to marry in a few years after her career is established.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 27, 2016, 06:32:06 pm
Marriage is not about sacrificing your life for someone else.

This is absolutely true, but I am unsure a marriage can last if the family isn't the first priority.

Sure, once commitments have been made and plans have been hashed out for how both parties want to build their life together, that has to carry weight. They're not there yet, though, this is the negotiation phase.

Absolutely.  No argument.

Quote
She's 19 and trying to start her career, and for some reason likes this chump enough to hope that he'll be there with her. And he's bitching that their relationship as TEENAGERS isn't enough for her to abandon her dream job over, like he ate some True Wuv bullshit and hasn't vomited it back up yet.

All guys are twerps for some portion of their lives, some longer, some shorter.   :lulz:
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 27, 2016, 06:32:48 pm
What are you talking about? I talk shit all the time  :lulz:

Seriously though, she's talking about building her life, and she wants you in it, so why the long face? She's not pretending anything from what you've said, she's got things she wants and she's communicating that with you. If you want those things too, awesome. If you're convinced this is the train to breakup town and she's deluding herself, well then break up and be sad about it. (And I definitely will not give you shit about being sad about it, breakups suck ass)

For the same reason I can't expect her to abandon her career for me, it would be unfair to expect me to abandon mine for her. There is simply a very large chance that I won't be able to move out with her if that time comes. She can want commitment AND the job all she wants, and I would love it more than anything if she could have both. But one simply can't happen until the opportunity for the other has been taken, or has passed. She has other priorities, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Fernando Poo, the takeaway I'm getting from literally everything you have said is this:

YOU AREN'T THAT INTO HER.

You are simply not that into this relationship. Own it and stop trying to come up with a way to make this somehow her fault.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: PoFP on August 27, 2016, 07:03:22 pm
I appreciate all the input and help everyone, but this is turning into the "Poo Repeats Himself Over and Over Again ITT" thread, so I'm gonna end it right here. I've made my actual intentions quite clear at this point, and they've been twisted multiple times to mean something else.

Nigel: I could understand if you were answering the question that the OP brings up, which is "Am I being Selfish?" while providing a valid line of reasoning. But it seems like half of the shit I've typed in this thread has been completely fucking ignored. All of the insulting bullshit would be cleared up by actually reading everything I've posted, but that's obviously too fucking much to ask. So I'm gonna give your points the same amount of energy that you put toward understanding this thread, and respond with pictures of cats.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/img15/pet-products/small-tiles/30423_pets-products_january-site-flip_3-cathealth_short-tile_592x304._CB286975940_.jpg)

(https://img1.wsimg.com/fos/sales/cwh/8/images/cats-with-hats-shop-02.jpg)
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 27, 2016, 07:54:11 pm
You didn't get the answer you wanted. :lol:
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: PoFP on August 27, 2016, 08:06:57 pm
You didn't get the answer you wanted. :lol:

No, I got one that was based on reading only portions of what I wrote without the context that I outlined in the thread. I'm not going to sit here and be told how I feel about someone else. I shouldn't have to quote myself from earlier in the thread to refute your argument.

So go derail someone else's thread. Otherwise, change the title of this thread to "Walls and Walls of CATS."
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: LuciferX on August 27, 2016, 09:41:04 pm
I do not envy this and cannot answer your question to satisfaction: your position is probably more nuanced than most would be willing to relate to ATM.  Although I can pretend to understand and formulate a response, I must admit that part of me is trying to somehow retroactively advise a version of myself from a past life.  This is not meant to be disparaging.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 27, 2016, 10:11:33 pm
You didn't get the answer you wanted. :lol:

No, I got one that was based on reading only portions of what I wrote without the context that I outlined in the thread. I'm not going to sit here and be told how I feel about someone else. I shouldn't have to quote myself from earlier in the thread to refute your argument.

So go derail someone else's thread. Otherwise, change the title of this thread to "Walls and Walls of CATS."

Sorry, you're right; what you wrote totally is totally different from what everyone in this thread read and responded to. I'll change the title, since I can totally do that, and then I will proceed to never, ever comment on your posts because your tantrums are not hilarious at all.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 27, 2016, 10:18:01 pm

Nigel: I could understand if you were answering the question that the OP brings up, which is "Am I being Selfish?"

The answer is yes. You are demanding that someone who is trying to plan their future refrain from discussing commitment until after they commit. So, basically, you want her to not explore options or make plans until she has FIRST decided that she is 100% committed to you no matter what the circumstances. At age 19. And you are having an adorable little meltdown and insisting that every single person in this thread is simply misreading, ignoring, or misinterpreting what you have written.

Selfish, childish, spoiled, bratty, unreasonable, controlling, patronizing, assholish; whichever adjective you prefer, they all apply here.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Pergamos on August 27, 2016, 10:19:53 pm
Yes you are being selfish, but not or the reasons you think.  It's selfish of you to prioritize your career over the relationship and to expect her to do the same.  It's selfsh of you to insist that she not express her dreams regarding both marriage/kids and career.  You can be the voice of reason that says "well, we can't do both those things because I am on the career track I want to be on here and don't think i will be if we move" but that doesn't mean you should expect her not to talk about it.  I suspect her responding that you might have to break up was due to anger over your approach as much as a lack of attachment.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: PoFP on August 27, 2016, 11:11:14 pm
You didn't get the answer you wanted. :lol:

No, I got one that was based on reading only portions of what I wrote without the context that I outlined in the thread. I'm not going to sit here and be told how I feel about someone else. I shouldn't have to quote myself from earlier in the thread to refute your argument.

So go derail someone else's thread. Otherwise, change the title of this thread to "Walls and Walls of CATS."

Sorry, you're right; what you wrote totally is totally different from what everyone in this thread read and responded to. I'll change the title, since I can totally do that, and then I will proceed to never, ever comment on your posts because your tantrums are not hilarious at all.

 :lol:

Actually, literally EVERYONE ELSE seemed to say completely civilized things, and helpful things about the discussion (QG was slightly mean for a moment, but made it obvious that she was not intending to be completely hostile.). You decided to assume a context that I blatantly disagreed with from the beginning (And many times throughout the thread), and decided to attack me based on that context. That context being that I don't care much for my girlfriend, which is 1. Crossing a fucking line, seeing as how you can't even begin to claim that you know ANYTHING about me, or my relationship with my girlfriend, or how deeply I care about her, and 2. Completely contradicted by the context outlined in the posts you obviously didn't read.


Nigel: I could understand if you were answering the question that the OP brings up, which is "Am I being Selfish?"

The answer is yes. You are demanding that someone who is trying to plan their future refrain from discussing commitment until after they commit. So, basically, you want her to not explore options or make plans until she has FIRST decided that she is 100% committed to you no matter what the circumstances. At age 19. And you are having an adorable little meltdown and insisting that every single person in this thread is simply misreading, ignoring, or misinterpreting what you have written.

Selfish, childish, spoiled, bratty, unreasonable, controlling, patronizing, assholish; whichever adjective you prefer, they all apply here.

I'm only insisting that YOU are misreading, ignoring, and misinterpreting what I have written. Who in their right mind would consider marrying someone who was willing to leave you for a better job? Who in their right mind would consider marrying someone who hasn't hardly even started their career, yet, when you know they plan to? Who in their right mind would consider marriage with someone if they weren't sure they could be with the other person in just a few years (And they aren't dying)? If wanting both partners to be realistic about their expectations of the relationship makes me a selfish, childish asshole, then I'll wear that label on every forum I visit.

Yes you are being selfish, but not or the reasons you think.  It's selfish of you to prioritize your career over the relationship and to expect her to do the same.  It's selfsh of you to insist that she not express her dreams regarding both marriage/kids and career.  You can be the voice of reason that says "well, we can't do both those things because I am on the career track I want to be on here and don't think i will be if we move" but that doesn't mean you should expect her not to talk about it.  I suspect her responding that you might have to break up was due to anger over your approach as much as a lack of attachment.

I assume you meant "Not to do the same."

All I did was suggest to her that I would have to start out from scratch again, and that the real estate there is much different than where we are. I just expressed that it would be difficult if we had to move out there. That's not manipulation. That's a fact. An expression of my feelings. She responded with an implication that we would probably break up in the event that I wasn't able to live out there with her.

That is a demonstration that she prioritized the career over me regardless of whether I were to be out there with her. I'm not going to consider or talk about marriage or kids with someone who does not take family to be her highest priority at the time. I told her we could talk about those things once she was capable of having those priorities, and that there was nothing wrong with that. I told her that there are 0 hard feelings about being truthful and realistic about that. And again, if that makes me a selfish, childish asshole, then so be it. I'm not going to risk putting a child through what I went through because I considered commitment with someone who wasn't capable of being committed yet. If that makes me a piece of shit, then I'll wear that label like a suit of fucking armor.

The thing is, I did plan on going out there with her no matter what I had to sacrifice. I was putting everything out on the table that was important to consider, and she showed me what was important to her at this point in time. I'm not upset with her about that. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It hurts, but it's something I'll have to live with. What I'm upset with, is the implication that she is dedicated enough to consider marriage and/or children before we're even over that hill.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Pergamos on August 27, 2016, 11:53:51 pm
No,  I meant to do the same.  You expect her to move out there and discard the relationship.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: PoFP on August 27, 2016, 11:55:27 pm
No,  I meant to do the same.  You expect her to move out there and discard the relationship.

Her intention is to take that job offer at all costs, and I support that sentiment.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: LMNO on August 29, 2016, 03:47:19 pm
Is it selfish to want your significant other to avoid talking about marriage or kids if they are willing to give up that possibility for a long-distance, permanent job offer?

Because I don't have a problem with my girlfriend taking the job offer if it possibly means us not being together. I couldn't live with myself if I found out that I kept her from a successful job offer she considered. But is it selfish to want her to NOT bring up the idea of permanent commitments if she is willing to take that job at all costs? Could you marry or have kids with someone who would be willing to give that up for a job offer that ends your relationship? Am I just being an asshole?

I'm taking this back to the OP, because I feel like it can be broken down into fundamental components and questions.

Premises:
1. Girlfriend (GF) has a potential long distance job offer (JO).
2. Fernando Poo (FP) is employed locally.
3. GF wants to talk about marriage (Long Term Commitment 1 (LTC1)).
4. GF wants to talk about kids (Long Term Commitment 2 (LTC2)).

Assumptions (made by FP):
1. FP wants GF to take the JO if offered.
2. If GF takes the JO, the relationship will be over.

Questions posed:
1. Is it selfish to want GF not to talk about LTC1 or LTC2 if accepting JO precludes either?
2. Could the audience accept a similar scenario themselves?
3. Does FP asking Question 1 make him an asshole?

Analysis:
1. LTC1 and LTC2 are vastly different types of commitment.
2. JO does not automatically imply LTC1 and LTC2 are impossible.  Anecdotal evidence and relationship statistics show, I believe, that long-distance relationships are or can be stabilized by LTC1, if not LTC2.
3. Basic relationship guidelines generally say that a healthy relationship is made with more, not less, communication.
4. FP seems to have an unspoken belief that he is unwilling to enter into a long-distance relationship, based on Assumption 2.
5. GF appears to be weighing her decision in part on whether LTC1 or LTC2 will be possible if she takes JO.

Conclusions/Answers:
1. FP is being selfish for not wanting GF to talk about LTC1 or LTC2 if she takes JO.
         --Based on Assumption 1 and Analysis 3 and 5, FP is creating a scenario where a decision cannot be reached, extending the relationship status quo, however unhappily for GF.
2. Personally, this audience member rejects Assumption 2, therefore the question is invalid.
3. FP may not be an asshole, if Conclusion 1 was not understood initially.  If Conclusion 1 is understood, then yes.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on August 29, 2016, 06:24:55 pm
One thing that is not clear from the scenario as it has been described to this point is whether the GF is aware of FP's intention to terminate the relationship if she accepts the JO. Clearly, moving conflicts with his career plans, and he is choosing to prioritize his career over making the move to be with her. Does she know this? Or does she continue to talk about the possibility of long-term commitment because she is unclear on this?
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: LMNO on August 29, 2016, 06:56:22 pm
Agreed.  I made a go-ahead assumption that because FP did not want GF to talk about LTC1 or 2 and since we do not have her input/perspective, he had not yet communicated to her how he would be have if she accepted JO.

Also, because the initial question did not include, "do you think it's appropriate to terminate the relationship if she moves away?", I did not include it in my answers.  My answer would be a tentative "No", if such an question were posed, due to analysis 1, 2, and 5.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: PoFP on August 29, 2016, 08:57:00 pm
Yup. At this point, the issue has been vastly over-complicated to the point of exerting more energy than necessary to discuss.

It's been made clear that I made no indication in any way shape or form that I would terminate the relationship in any scenario. She was the one who made the implication that that was a possibility given the scenario I provided, which was simply that I would have to start my career over.

It's also been made very clear that she understands all of the arguments that I've made in this thread, and knows all of my thoughts on the matter.

At this point, her and I are over the situation and have made our decisions. I'm going to start back at square one, as long as she is ok with me taking the first few months of living there to dedicate every second of my time to improving my work position. With this decision, the contemplation of LTC 1 and 2 are realistic again.

What made me fight the contemplation of the LTC 1 and 2 was her immediate assumption and acceptance of the relationship ending in the scenario I gave to her.
Fact: When something is priority number 1, it is not given up over something else.
Fact: I will not consider LTC 1 and 2 with someone if those things are not Priority 1. No hard feelings. I've seen the result of such considerations many times before. It doesn't end well for anyone.

Also, because the initial question did not include, "do you think it's appropriate to terminate the relationship if she moves away?", I did not include it in my answers.  My answer would be a tentative "No", if such an question were posed, due to analysis 1, 2, and 5.

This is irrelevant in this case, but that question depends entirely on the relationship. If neither people are capable of long-term relationships, or want one, then it wouldn't be inappropriate to end the relationship on that assumption. Analyses 1, 2, and 5 are completely subjective and/or situational.

Analysis 4 is false by the fact that I made it very clear what my stance was on the possibility of a long-distance relationship (Avidly against).

And she feels the same way (This was not stated, but I am stating it now.)


Now that we're done inventing bullshit to fight me on, let's move on with our lives, shall we?
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 30, 2016, 01:42:39 am
I have always said that this is the best place on the internet to get advice.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 30, 2016, 03:00:18 am
The next time you get the urge to do something like that, may I suggest you instead just squeeze your testicles until you remember that you are unlovable and deserve nothing.

It's the same thing, only without people lining up to shit on you.


Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: PoFP on August 30, 2016, 01:36:26 pm
This is the best place to get advice, and plenty of people did so in this thread. Including you.

But I'm not going to play nice if all someone is doing is giving me a load of shit because they decided they didn't want to read anything I said in the thread.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Q. G. Pennyworth on August 30, 2016, 04:19:51 pm
The next time you get the urge to do something like that, may I suggest you instead just squeeze your testicles until you remember that you are unlovable and deserve nothing.

It's the same thing, only without people lining up to shit on you.

Is it better if we don't queue?
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on August 30, 2016, 04:28:23 pm
The next time you get the urge to do something like that, may I suggest you instead just squeeze your testicles until you remember that you are unlovable and deserve nothing.

It's the same thing, only without people lining up to shit on you.

Is it better if we don't queue?

It's funnier, but it gets the UK membership all riled up.
Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: Junkenstein on August 30, 2016, 04:32:54 pm
Culturally, some of us are obligated to frown on those that cannot queue in an orderly fashion.

How the fuck can my phone get that right and still have problems with "hello" and "man". Worst fucking pocket spy I've ever used.

Title: Re: Am I Being Selfish?
Post by: LuciferX on September 01, 2016, 12:27:35 am
Culturally, some of us are obligated to frown on those that cannot queue in an orderly fashion.

How the fuck can my phone get that right and still have problems with "hello" and "man". Worst fucking pocket spy I've ever used.


I agree that normative distance-standing rules are not absolute, however, I also suspect no earthly introduction can make proper of what those devices get-up into.