Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Think for Yourself, Schmuck! => Topic started by: LMNO on November 10, 2016, 08:36:04 pm

Title: Turning Purple
Post by: LMNO on November 10, 2016, 08:36:04 pm
If someone says something offensive about an idea you have; and you tell them they're offended; and they respond by being offended that they're being called offensive; then what?

Added degree of difficulty: What if you want to convince them to help you with your idea?

Big Boss: What if it's half the voting public you're trying to convince?
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 10, 2016, 08:44:38 pm
1.  Then Eris wins.

2.  See #1

3.  See #1 59,377,773 times.

There is no convincing anyone of anything right now.  Nobody on either side will be able to think clearly until April.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: LMNO on November 10, 2016, 08:47:38 pm
OK, but what about after April?  What about in 2018?  What about 2020?

There's a lot of talk that Democrats lost votes because people were offended at being told their ideas and language were offensive.  Apart from ignoring it or accepting it, what do?
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 10, 2016, 09:08:09 pm
OK, but what about after April?  What about in 2018?  What about 2020?

There's a lot of talk that Democrats lost votes because people were offended at being told their ideas and language were offensive.  Apart from ignoring it or accepting it, what do?

No idea.  I don't know what to say when almost 60 million Americans voted Nazi.  The USA is now officially one of history's bad guys.  What is there to convince anyone of?  Many of them truly believe all that shit, and the rest will double down and burn your house down if you tell them they made a mistake.  That's not hyperbole. 

Populism is a disease.  The only historical cure won't happen because we have a nuclear stockpile, so there won't be any allies invading.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 10, 2016, 09:40:34 pm
Fixed.

(Split topic, accidentally moved original topic to Apple Talk, moved it back.)
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Slipper on November 10, 2016, 09:47:45 pm
1. tell em' i dont give a fuk how dey feel.

2. put gun to head, and say, "do you love x-idea?"

3. call donald to help me out.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 10, 2016, 09:51:28 pm
I don't know what you were expecting, LMNO.

I know exactly what's going to happen with the two rants I'm brewing.  Same shit as happened here.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: LMNO on November 10, 2016, 10:08:05 pm
It's an interesting conundrum, after all.  And it does cut both ways.  If the country is evenly split ideologically from first principles, does one side just beat the other over the head every 2-4 years?

Look at me, still trying not to cynical.  Ain't I adorable?
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 11, 2016, 12:36:47 am
It's an interesting conundrum, after all.  And it does cut both ways.  If the country is evenly split ideologically from first principles, does one side just beat the other over the head every 2-4 years?

Look at me, still trying not to cynical.  Ain't I adorable?

This is different.  Look at the news.  The Nazis are running around in the open now.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 11, 2016, 01:22:38 am
It's an interesting conundrum, after all.  And it does cut both ways.  If the country is evenly split ideologically from first principles, does one side just beat the other over the head every 2-4 years?

Look at me, still trying not to cynical.  Ain't I adorable?

This is different.  Look at the news.  The Nazis are running around in the open now.

As far as I can tell the Nazis have taken the Kek thing to heart and it's shockingly open as a covert symbol of subversive intent if not the esoteric shit that has a certain verv to it. In a way I'm almost amused, but the blood WILL be paid. SOME of the mysteries are very real. This is not a negotiaion. They're looking to their bullshit ubermensch mythology as justification, as ever, claiming their creed to be the true Maat (just being) as personified by a deified Hitler...

And the memes linking all this through poor Pepe have NOTHING in them to restrain the evocation. This is the metaphysical equivalent of blowing up a dam that you're sitting on top of, but the energy released is a HUNGER that must be fed and will go get it's own, thank you. In essence the folks "pledged" to the lynchpin become... fixated and single minded at the fringes and more psychotic the farther into the cult you dig. I'm not going to say more here, but this is a VERY dark concept and now all too real as a political construct INTENDED to build in synergy with the meme-cult.

Thing is they didn't actually do anything to properly lay CLAIM to the forces they "released" and so the construct WILL run rampant beyond their control, and at that point things will get INTERESTING. Until then the violence will only intensify in the afflicted and those fully in thrall will be lavishly rewarded from the bloody spoils.

There are weaknesses.  :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: Not going to discuss those in the open though.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 11, 2016, 01:31:18 am


There are weaknesses.  :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: :lulz: Not going to discuss those in the open though.

Yeah, just addressed that very thing in Apple Talk.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 11, 2016, 05:05:11 am
They aren't going to change their minds. A few will here and there, but not enough to make a difference.

We have to do this the old-fashioned way: try to keep them at bay while waiting for them to die.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 11, 2016, 05:08:44 am
Kek?

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3vvlSTgTlrY/TgALgcucaLI/AAAAAAAAAB8/Saj47beTghE/s1600/kek+roll1.jpg)
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on November 11, 2016, 05:20:29 am
Kek?

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3vvlSTgTlrY/TgALgcucaLI/AAAAAAAAAB8/Saj47beTghE/s1600/kek+roll1.jpg)

No. I wish. I REALLY WISH IT WAS. 

:sad: Then let them eat Kek..
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on November 11, 2016, 09:21:31 am
If someone says something offensive about an idea you have; and you tell them they're offended; and they respond by being offended that they're being called offensive; then what?

Added degree of difficulty: What if you want to convince them to help you with your idea?

Big Boss: What if it's half the voting public you're trying to convince?

Offense is a feeling that shores up self-righteousness. It's a defense against having to confront ideas that don't fit into your reality map.

So maybe you have to sidestep the problem. Saying "You are being offensive" apparently doesn't work so maybe it's something like.. education? Or increased welfare so that those who are most vulnerable are better looked after and more able to hold a more inclusive worldview?

I don't know. I think everything could be irreparably fucked and we're just going to have to see how the next four years shake out before anyone even has any idea as to what to do.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: LMNO on November 11, 2016, 08:06:20 pm
Another problem I'm having.

There's a narrative that "the GOP gave the voters a solution to their problems, and the DNC didn't".

There's something wrong with that assessment, and one that was a main part of the election season.  The GOP's solutions were bullshit.  Debunked, disproven, shown to be faulty, and damaging.  The Democrats repeated this, the media repeated this, the speeches repeated this.  The Trump voters didn't care.  They apparently preferred to be lied to, to be comforted, to be pacified, to be pandered to.

Repeatedly, fingers pointed to basic math, simple global politics, elementary science, and the voters decided that irrationality was more comfortable.

"Trump offered a solution" is not the truth. Trump offered comfortable lies.  The Democrats offered a solution, but all people could talk about were bullshit email servers.  Their solution wasn't great, but it was plausible

There's a story being developed now, heading towards "lying to the public is the best way to win elections."
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 11, 2016, 08:17:14 pm
"It's a great campaign device"!
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 11, 2016, 08:20:17 pm
"Trump offered a solution" is not the truth. Trump offered comfortable lies.  The Democrats offered a solution, but all people could talk about were bullshit email servers.  Their solution wasn't great, but it was plausible


So, protecting Obamacare is the solution to Obamacare and "free trade and open borders"/TPP is the solution to outsourcing jobs?
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Junkenstein on November 11, 2016, 08:22:24 pm


There's a story being developed now, heading towards "lying to the public is the best way to win elections."

This is a major problem in the UK and has been for years. You set out a manifesto of what you'll do with power and there's no mechanism to enforce any of it or punish any lack of implementation. I suspect you'll be dealing with boundary re-draws before this becomes an issue though.

Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 11, 2016, 08:22:47 pm
Quote
A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it

— Max Planck, Scientific autobiography, 1950, p. 33

Good old Max. He was right about science, and it works the same way for social attitudes. A hundred years ago, women couldn't vote. Fifty years ago, there were laws in many states that blacks and whites couldn't marry. Redlining was common 30 years ago. 15 years ago, there were very few female PhDs in the physical sciences.

Attitudes are changing, but change is gradual, and requires people growing up with new, better ideas that form the framework for their behavior.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 11, 2016, 08:30:37 pm
Quote
A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it

— Max Planck, Scientific autobiography, 1950, p. 33

Good old Max. He was right about science, and it works the same way for social attitudes. A hundred years ago, women couldn't vote. Fifty years ago, there were laws in many states that blacks and whites couldn't marry. Redlining was common 30 years ago. 15 years ago, there were very few female PhDs in the physical sciences.

Attitudes are changing, but change is gradual, and requires people growing up with new, better ideas that form the framework for their behavior.

First time I wish I was unblocked. But its poetic. Telling yourself that the future is yours and you dont have to do anything to earn it while ignoring all voices that tell you otherwise. 2018 is gonna be AWESOME.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 11, 2016, 08:43:10 pm
This was a pretty good opinion piece that calls out the massive hypocrisy and illogic of the belief that we just need to LISTEN to Trump supporters, and UNDERSTAND them: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/trigger-warning-trump-fans-this-column-calls-racists-racists/article32816606/

Quote
The media did very little to challenge the narrative that Donald Trump – a trust-fund baby turned real-estate mogul turned reality-TV star turned fraudulent-university huckster turned politician – is the working class’s hero. And that he is a hero that the people had a right to turn to and to not be criticized for doing so.

It was taken as given, but I kept reading it, that Trump supporters were a demographic compelled, by forces entirely beyond their control, to hate and fear Hispanics and Muslims.

To report that story convincingly you have to ignore the fact that Mr. Trump’s voters are relatively affluent. They have a median household income of $72,000 (U.S.), a full $10,000 above the average.

You also have to sweep a lot of lower-income, lower-skilled minorities (it’s striking how people of colour seldom get the romanticized label “working class” bestowed upon them) under the rug. The plights of these people are much less likely to be poignantly illuminated in the press than those of my fellow white folks.

Trump supporters are the same people who have dominated the American perspective for our entire history. We can't get away from listening to and understanding them; history, literature, TV, movies, commercials, EVERYTHING is already about them. The exhortation that we have to "listen to and understand them" is nothing more than a device for continuing to avoid listening to or understanding the people who still just can't seem to get fucking heard.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 11, 2016, 08:50:16 pm
"Trump supporters hate and fear Mulsims, unlike Hillary supporters who merely want to 'kill a lot' of them"

Quote
illogic of the belief that we just need to LISTEN to Trump supporters, and UNDERSTAND them

Tfw no matter how shitty Trump is as a president were still going to win 18 and 20.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: LMNO on November 11, 2016, 08:51:56 pm
This was a pretty good opinion piece that calls out the massive hypocrisy and illogic of the belief that we just need to LISTEN to Trump supporters, and UNDERSTAND them: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/trigger-warning-trump-fans-this-column-calls-racists-racists/article32816606/

Quote
The media did very little to challenge the narrative that Donald Trump – a trust-fund baby turned real-estate mogul turned reality-TV star turned fraudulent-university huckster turned politician – is the working class’s hero. And that he is a hero that the people had a right to turn to and to not be criticized for doing so.

It was taken as given, but I kept reading it, that Trump supporters were a demographic compelled, by forces entirely beyond their control, to hate and fear Hispanics and Muslims.

To report that story convincingly you have to ignore the fact that Mr. Trump’s voters are relatively affluent. They have a median household income of $72,000 (U.S.), a full $10,000 above the average.

You also have to sweep a lot of lower-income, lower-skilled minorities (it’s striking how people of colour seldom get the romanticized label “working class” bestowed upon them) under the rug. The plights of these people are much less likely to be poignantly illuminated in the press than those of my fellow white folks.

Trump supporters are the same people who have dominated the American perspective for our entire history. We can't get away from listening to and understanding them; history, literature, TV, movies, commercials, EVERYTHING is already about them. The exhortation that we have to "listen to and understand them" is nothing more than a device for continuing to avoid listening to or understanding the people who still just can't seem to get fucking heard.

Good point.  "Working/middle class people who feel ignored voted for Trump" is not the case.  "Working/middle class WHITE people who feel ignored voted for Trump" fits the final voting numbers.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Junkenstein on November 11, 2016, 09:14:14 pm
Relevant quotes:

Quote
We were to understand that “real America” is found at a Trump rally. Those rallies were somehow more authentically American than, say, a Black Lives Matter protest, a college classroom, a gay pride parade, or even a state fair. A man shouting “Jew-S-A!” was to be taken as some kind of white working-class sphinx, asking us to solve the riddle of his true feelings.

That man’s life just had to be given enough context, apparently, and then his anti-Semitism and the raging sexism of the man shouting “Trump that bitch!” next to him, would become benign. Assign their anger a source – and never question the legitimacy of that emotion

Quote
That these people are adults who are accountable for their choices was largely taken as an unduly harsh sentiment in this election. But there is no parent’s note for bigotry. No teacher would accept “Little Timmy can’t help but hate Mexicans today because he had a dentist appointment.”

Quote
Please don’t tell me that lots of Trump supporters voted on issues other than race. Studies show that – while the belief that women are nasty was a strong indicator of support – attitudes toward race, the belief that black people are more violent than whites, or that Barack Obama is a Muslim born in Kenya etc. were the key predictors of whether someone planned to vote for Donald Trump.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on November 11, 2016, 09:18:11 pm
So youre all really doubling down on this? Just rolling out the red carpet for a 2020 curbstomping.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Junkenstein on November 11, 2016, 09:22:42 pm
So youre all really doubling down on this? Just rolling out the red carpet for a 2020 curbstomping.

With control of all three branches, if you can't guarantee a one party country by the end of February you're dealing with incompetence beyond reckoning.

Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: LMNO on November 11, 2016, 09:44:20 pm
Requesting threadsplit.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 11, 2016, 10:03:24 pm
I thought you also might find this opinion piece interesting: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2016/11/10/the-cinemax-theory-of-racism/

Quote
Let’s say you want HBO. So you go to your local cable provider to get HBO and the only way they’ll let you get HBO is to sign up for a premium channel package, which includes HBO but also includes Cinemax. Now, maybe you don’t want Cinemax, and you don’t care about Cinemax, and maybe never personally plan to ever watch Cinemax, but the deal is: If you want HBO, you have to sign on to Cinemax too. You have to be a Cinemax subscriber to get HBO. And you go ahead and sign up for the premium channel package.

Pop quiz: In this scenario, did you just subscribe to Cinemax?
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Junkenstein on November 11, 2016, 10:12:58 pm
Appreciate the links nigel, here's some nice numbers from that earlier source:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/us-election/the-real-reason-donald-trump-got-elected-we-have-a-white-extremism-problem/article32817625/

Quote
His election was the work, almost entirely, of white people. More than 90 per cent of Americans who voted for Mr. Trump were white, and most white U.S. voters, both men and women, cast a ballot for him (even though his opponent got more votes over all). And at least 90 per cent of non-white Americans did not vote for him. This was a white riot – an angry, rejectionist turn by a deeply pessimistic majority within the white population against the far more hopeful and inclusive politics of the rest of the country.

Quote
If poverty, gender and region don’t draw white people into extremism, what does? One factor is size of community: Americans who live in cities of 50,000 or more overwhelmingly voted for Ms. Clinton, by a margin of 59 to 35 per cent. But “small city or rural” residents voted for Mr. Trump by almost the same margin (62 to 34), with the suburbs almost equally split between the two. And the other big predictor, as the scholars noted, was education: White people without post-secondary education voted for Mr. Trump to a huge degree (70 per cent to 30); he also got the most votes from white people with degrees, but only by 4 per cent. And military service is a big predictor: Six veterans and soldiers in every 10 voted Trump (but this has always been true for Republicans).

Quote
Indeed, one of the strongest indicators of Trump support (and support for far-right movements elsewhere) is a belief that things were better in the past. A much-discussed survey by the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI) found that 72 per cent of Trump voters felt that life and culture had been better in the 1950s – a time before civil rights and racial equality. Conversely, 70 per cent of Clinton voters felt things had improved since then. Those results were borne out on election night: Exit polls showed that 90 per cent of Clinton voters felt the country had gone in “generally the right direction”; only 8 per cent of Trump voters did.

There's a theme here.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 11, 2016, 10:20:58 pm
There's also putting to rest the low-turnout myth: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/11/11/did_clinton_fail_to_turn_out_registered_democrats.html

Quote
Nate Cohn of the New York Times estimates that when every vote is tallied, some 63.4 million Americans will have voted for Clinton and 61.2 million for Trump. That means Clinton will have turned out more supporters than any presidential candidate in history except for Obama in 2008 and 2012. And as David Wasserman of Cook Political Report notes, the total vote count—including third-party votes—has already crossed 127 million, and will “easily beat” the 129 million total from 2012. The idea that voters stayed home in 2016 because they hated Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton is a myth.

Note that this is DESPITE rampant voter suppression.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Vanadium Gryllz on November 12, 2016, 09:17:56 am
That  Cinemax link was an interesting read Nigel, thanks for posting. I thought this section:

Quote
This election, you had two major Presidential providers. One offered you the Stronger Together plan, and the other offered you the Make America Great Again plan. You chose the Make America Great Again plan. The thing is, the Make America Great Again has in its package active, institutionalized racism (also active, institutionalized sexism. And as it happens, active, institutionalized homophobia). And you know it does, because the people who bundled up the Make America Great Again package not only told you it was there, they made it one of the plan’s big selling points.

And you voted for it anyway.

So did you vote for racism?

You sure did.

And you say, but I’m not racist, and I would never treat people in a racist fashion, and I don’t like being called out as having done a racist thing.

And others say to you, okay, but you knew that when you signed up for the Make America Great Again plan that active, institutionalized racism was part of the package. Your vote supports racism. By voting, you endorsed a racist plan.

And you say, but I didn’t want that part. I wanted the other parts.

And others say to you, that’s fine, but you knew that to get the other parts, you had to sign on for the racism, too. And evidently you were okay with that.

And you say, no I’m not, I hate racism.

And others say to you, but apparently you like these other things more than you hate racism, because you agreed to the racism in order to get these other things.

And you say, well, the Stronger Together plan had horrible things in it too.

And others say to you, yes, and you didn’t vote for that, you voted for this. Which has racism in it. You voted for racism.

And you say, stop saying that.

And the others ask, why.

makes the point really clear.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 12, 2016, 04:31:31 pm
I liked that part a lot too. A lot of white people act like being told they have done something racist is an outlandish accusation, as if you're accusing them of lynching babies. They cling super hard to the idea that they AREN'T racist because they know that racism is a bad thing, and get very angry when you say that voting for Trump is racist because it supports a platform of racism and xenophobia.

They can't quite grasp that saying it's not racist isn't enough to make it actually not racist.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: LMNO on November 12, 2016, 05:10:11 pm
I don't really have the proper platform to say it, but on FB I posted that if someone voted for Trump and don't consider themselves bigots, or voted or him despite their misgivings about his bigotry, here are the links to the ACLU, Southern Poverty Law Center, AIDS Action Committee, and Planned Parenthood, and to please donate to support the people who are now at risk because of your vote.

It's a troll, but it's a CHARITY troll.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 12, 2016, 05:14:02 pm
I don't really have the proper platform to say it, but on FB I posted that if someone voted for Trump and don't consider themselves bigots, or voted or him despite their misgivings about his bigotry, here are the links to the ACLU, Southern Poverty Law Center, AIDS Action Committee, and Planned Parenthood, and to please donate to support the people who are now at risk because of your vote.

It's a troll, but it's a CHARITY troll.

I like this! It's BRILLIANT.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: MMIX on November 12, 2016, 06:31:31 pm
I liked that part a lot too. A lot of white people act like being told they have done something racist is an outlandish accusation, as if you're accusing them of lynching babies. They cling super hard to the idea that they AREN'T racist because they know that racism is a bad thing, and get very angry when you say that voting for Trump is racist because it supports a platform of racism and xenophobia.

They can't quite grasp that saying it's not racist isn't enough to make it actually not racist.

I've been haunted for a while now by the creeping realisation that  a goodly percentage of people don't actually know that racism is a bad thing. Its just that they keep being told that racism is a bad thing and repeat it mindlessly without actually engaging with it personally.

Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 12, 2016, 07:03:54 pm
I liked that part a lot too. A lot of white people act like being told they have done something racist is an outlandish accusation, as if you're accusing them of lynching babies. They cling super hard to the idea that they AREN'T racist because they know that racism is a bad thing, and get very angry when you say that voting for Trump is racist because it supports a platform of racism and xenophobia.

They can't quite grasp that saying it's not racist isn't enough to make it actually not racist.

I've been haunted for a while now by the creeping realisation that  a goodly percentage of people don't actually know that racism is a bad thing. Its just that they keep being told that racism is a bad thing and repeat it mindlessly without actually engaging with it personally.

Hmmm, that's an interesting observation, and consistent with my observation that people know enough to get angry about being told they're being racist, but not enough to actually understand that they were being racist.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 13, 2016, 12:39:27 am
I saw this and I thought you guys might dig it.

(https://scontent.fsnc1-5.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15037280_1177911822277662_5237125796037018122_n.jpg?oh=64b8e5dbec8baf50045d6ab3f66d88d8&oe=58C94130)
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 13, 2016, 12:40:12 am
Basically, to rephrase if I'm understanding her correctly;

Welcome to the jungle.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on November 13, 2016, 02:57:39 pm
I don't really have the proper platform to say it, but on FB I posted that if someone voted for Trump and don't consider themselves bigots, or voted or him despite their misgivings about his bigotry, here are the links to the ACLU, Southern Poverty Law Center, AIDS Action Committee, and Planned Parenthood, and to please donate to support the people who are now at risk because of your vote.

It's a troll, but it's a CHARITY troll.

:mittens: I like this.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 13, 2016, 04:39:57 pm
I don't think we're going to make any progress until the intractably racist segment of the white middle class is more afraid of what will happen if we don't get equality than they are afraid of us getting equality.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: LMNO on November 13, 2016, 04:55:53 pm
Yeah, pretty much that.


Also, we really need to figure out a way to overcome gerrymandering.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 13, 2016, 06:14:34 pm
A lot of people don't really know how the Civil Rights movement actually went down. There were riots, there was violence, and many historians and sociologists don't think the Civil Rights movement would have prevailed had it not been for a combination of peaceful protests and riots, which essentially put racist whites in the position of choosing the lesser of what they viewed as two evils: the civil rights act vs. angry black mobs.

If racist white Americans have taught us anything, it's that we need to use both the carrot and the stick.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 13, 2016, 06:16:22 pm
I am saying that the stick is going to be a necessary component of how we get laws that both reverse voter suppression and end gerrymandering. Things are going to get worse and scarier before they get better.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on November 13, 2016, 06:28:35 pm
I am saying that the stick is going to be a necessary component of how we get laws that both reverse voter suppression and end gerrymandering. Things are going to get worse and scarier before they get better.

I think you are very correct in this. The "peace is the only way, riots don't solve anything!" pap is sounding less and less true to me every day.

A lot of people are going to get hurt, it seems. But if "lesser of two evils" really is the only path to progress in this society, then a greater evil must be presented as the alternative to the lesser "evil" of treating Those People as humans.

(In case the FBI is listening, this hurts my White Male Feelings and I'm against it, for the record. Also, well played, pigs.)
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 13, 2016, 06:40:16 pm
I am saying that the stick is going to be a necessary component of how we get laws that both reverse voter suppression and end gerrymandering. Things are going to get worse and scarier before they get better.

I think you are very correct in this. The "peace is the only way, riots don't solve anything!" pap is sounding less and less true to me every day.

A lot of people are going to get hurt, it seems. But if "lesser of two evils" really is the only path to progress in this society, then a greater evil must be presented as the alternative to the lesser "evil" of treating Those People as humans.

(In case the FBI is listening, this hurts my White Male Feelings and I'm against it, for the record. Also, well played, pigs.)

I think that we also have to remember, and embrace, that these protests go way, way beyond race; they also involve immigration, LGBTQ+, women's equality, and access to resources like food and basic healthcare for those in poverty, most of whom are white and most of whom did not vote for Trump.

These protests are, essentially, for absolutely every marginalized and underrepresented group in the United States. This is something that we MUST not forget; we MUST not let it become boiled down to black vs. white or immigrant vs. natural born citizen or Muslim vs. Christian. Intersectionality, a word most of us didn't know eight years ago, is a necessary, inescapable core of these protests, and of the issues we face as a society now.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: maphdet on November 14, 2016, 01:55:42 am
Also economic division...but that's not what im here to say now...

It's all a cesspool of shit...every last bit of it. Sorry, Shit is such a big cluster of insanity-of an insanity that cannot even be explained its so fucked up. I do not honestly think there will be any solution any time soon or ever...or maybe there will be I don't know...the politics that we have known and used is not, has not, and probably will not ever work. No, I do not have any alternative to the current way politics work nor could i ever claim a solution could be put in place.
It sounds dim and whatnot but maybe it's just that way-dim. *throws arms up in the air* Through all of this the only hope we have is the generation that is younger than us....what i mean is---whatever age you are, we hope the one younger than us can "make things better"...sure sounds good. but that's just procrastinating and not dealing with anything for the now...but even so...my kid said something to me that somehow gave me a glimmer of hope in the younger generation (see what I am doing there- putting it on the younger generation again) anyway....shes asks me the day after the election when Race was the discussion going on all over most of the world (assuming)....she says "mom, why do we call it racism when someone is mean to someone who is not from where they are from? Why dont we just say that person is being mean?" I honestly did not have an answer...all i had for her was shit, that's a good question.

Sorry for derailing if that what my post is doing, not sure i am on topic here anymore in the thread...I just had to post a little something here for whatever reason.

Oh and a peaceful protest gets no shit done...just saying (they made sure that ppl were desensitized to protests, the occupy movement was the topper there)
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: LMNO on November 14, 2016, 02:03:35 am
King needed  X... X needed King.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: whenhellfreezes on November 28, 2016, 03:22:05 am
Lots of people don't vote because they don't feel like its very effective, and they are right to feel that. Those who are very adamant or radical are more likely to vote in this system. This causes racists and others at the margins to be over represented. That's not particularly great.

At the same time there is the notion that real change happens from the bottom up. If you make something genuinely be the opinion of society then eventually it will be law. I like the knowing vs being told comment earlier. It might be the barrier in communication.

Unfortunately with the current voting system we may have to get to the point where the racists aren't just a minority but a vanishingly small minority to overcome the over representation.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 28, 2016, 10:30:04 am
Lots of people don't vote because they don't feel like its very effective, and they are right to feel that.

And that's how they get the government they deserve.   :lulz:
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: whenhellfreezes on November 29, 2016, 01:35:38 am
Lots of people don't vote because they don't feel like its very effective, and they are right to feel that.

And that's how they get the government they deserve.   :lulz:

Now I feel a bit foolish. Of course taking the ~20 minutes to vote is worth it. It is more effective than other things you could do in that time. I should have just said that they don't feel like its effective but not said they were right to feel so. I guess I am prone to defeatism.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2016, 01:40:31 am
Lots of people don't vote because they don't feel like its very effective, and they are right to feel that.

And that's how they get the government they deserve.   :lulz:

Now I feel a bit foolish. Of course taking the ~20 minutes to vote is worth it. It is more effective than other things you could do in that time. I should have just said that they don't feel like its effective but not said they were right to feel so. I guess I am prone to defeatism.

It doesn't really matter.  The right is in lockstep (or goose-step, take your pick), and the left all hate each other...So under our system, the right will gain more and more power, until they don't feel the need to continue our system.  There is no good ending to this.  It's irreversible.  We doktors know a hopeless case when we see one.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: whenhellfreezes on November 29, 2016, 01:57:55 am
Lots of people don't vote because they don't feel like its very effective, and they are right to feel that.

And that's how they get the government they deserve.   :lulz:

Now I feel a bit foolish. Of course taking the ~20 minutes to vote is worth it. It is more effective than other things you could do in that time. I should have just said that they don't feel like its effective but not said they were right to feel so. I guess I am prone to defeatism.

It doesn't really matter.  The right is in lockstep (or goose-step, take your pick), and the left all hate each other...So under our system, the right will gain more and more power, until they don't feel the need to continue our system.  There is no good ending to this.  It's irreversible.  We doktors know a hopeless case when we see one.

Follow question is what conditions are necessary for the left to actually band together? Might also be worth asking where to put classical liberals on the binary spectrum.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on November 29, 2016, 02:02:31 am

Follow question is what conditions are necessary for the left to actually band together? Might also be worth asking where to put classical liberals on the binary spectrum.

1.  I can't think of any, to be perfectly honest.  At least not until it's way too late.

2.  Doesn't matter.

Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Cramulus on November 30, 2016, 07:50:59 pm
Another problem I'm having.

There's a narrative that "the GOP gave the voters a solution to their problems, and the DNC didn't".

There's something wrong with that assessment, and one that was a main part of the election season.  The GOP's solutions were bullshit.  Debunked, disproven, shown to be faulty, and damaging.  The Democrats repeated this, the media repeated this, the speeches repeated this.  The Trump voters didn't care.  They apparently preferred to be lied to, to be comforted, to be pacified, to be pandered to.

Repeatedly, fingers pointed to basic math, simple global politics, elementary science, and the voters decided that irrationality was more comfortable.

"Trump offered a solution" is not the truth. Trump offered comfortable lies.  The Democrats offered a solution, but all people could talk about were bullshit email servers.  Their solution wasn't great, but it was plausible

There's a story being developed now, heading towards "lying to the public is the best way to win elections."


We are living in the aftermath of the Perfect Storm. Its winds were the intersection of politics and entertainment. Its clouds were self serving media and poor media literacy. I think the current hydra has numerous heads, and there will be no simple approach - they have to be combatted individually.

I'm a pragmatist. I am mostly concerned with figuring out what specific actions will push the pendulum back to the left.


Since the election I've been keeping an eye on 4chan's /pol/ subforum (which is a disgusting place, don't go there) because I like to understand the shitbag's thinking in their own terms. It has highlighted, to me, how useless it is to appeal to some of these people in moral terms.



Aside from them -- I think that some victories can be won by appealing to people's better nature, ie, encouraging them to resist these racist trends.

But meanwhile - for many of the people who didn't vote blue (whether they voted Trump or just abstained),  that approach has not been working. In some ways it's made the problem worse. I saw Facebook FLOODED with these posts: "If you are voting for trump, you are a racist, unfriend me". And I talked to some Trump voters who said that kind of energy, over time, made them disengage. It didn't persuade them, it just made them tuck in and wait for it to blow over. And for those people, I think a different approach is needed.

I think about my Dad... He was a Sanders supporter. And then his property tax got jacked up by almost 30% in one quarter. Suddenly, his house was underwater. Once year after retirement, he had to sell his house and auction off most of his belongings. At that moment, he was reborn as a single issue voter: Taxes. And I can engage him about racism and he largely agrees, but that's not what he's basing his decision on.

So I'm not saying we have to abandon progressive principles and values... But I am saying that in the service of those principles we need better techniques, more tools in the kit.

I don't think that there's a single approach that will win working-class people back left. I think we'll need a mix of education, pointing out Trump's failures, and a healthy feel-good dose of Shaming.

Also, I think there is a lot of shitty liberal behavior out there, and that's become a narrative weapon against liberals. Though pinpointing that and addressing it will probably only further splinter the left.


I am also trying to imagine a news source which doesn't feed into the bubble-phenomenon of delivering the exact narrative people want to hear... Could one exist?

Because if a news source was CAPABLE of attracting both liberals and conservatives, it would beat out the partisan sources.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 30, 2016, 11:31:34 pm
Lots of people don't vote because they don't feel like its very effective, and they are right to feel that.

And that's how they get the government they deserve.   :lulz:

Now I feel a bit foolish. Of course taking the ~20 minutes to vote is worth it. It is more effective than other things you could do in that time. I should have just said that they don't feel like its effective but not said they were right to feel so. I guess I am prone to defeatism.

There were areas where it was five to seven hours. Basically, places where people had to miss a full day of work, if they even had the option, in order to vote.

I know I keep playing this fiddle, but THIS WASN'T ACCIDENTAL. This was orchestrated. Since the 2004 election, Republicans have been working furiously at local levels to close polls in poor and black areas, and to institute voter ID laws and other measures, like registration purges, to block poor and black voters, who trend strongly Democrat, from voting.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on November 30, 2016, 11:34:13 pm
Mind you, nonetheless, more than half of the people who did vote -- and it was not a small turnout by historic figures, at all, DESPITE voter suppression -- voted for Hillary Clinton DESPITE THE FACT THAT MANY OF THEM DIDN'T PARTICULARLY LIKE HER. Despite the fact that she's a woman. That's some pretty fucking impressive unity.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: hirley0 on December 01, 2016, 08:54:31 pm
20161201 12:34:56.789  { jOKe
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on December 01, 2016, 10:17:47 pm

Since the election I've been keeping an eye on 4chan's /pol/ subforum (which is a disgusting place, don't go there) because I like to understand the shitbag's thinking in their own terms. It has highlighted, to me, how useless it is to appeal to some of these people in moral terms.

4chan /pol/ is surface level stuff. You need to watch 8chan/pol/ /leftypol/ and far right Twitter. Especially twitter. Thats where the magic happens.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on December 01, 2016, 10:30:19 pm
Lots of people don't vote because they don't feel like its very effective, and they are right to feel that.

And that's how they get the government they deserve.   :lulz:

Now I feel a bit foolish. Of course taking the ~20 minutes to vote is worth it. It is more effective than other things you could do in that time. I should have just said that they don't feel like its effective but not said they were right to feel so. I guess I am prone to defeatism.

There were areas where it was five to seven hours. Basically, places where people had to miss a full day of work, if they even had the option, in order to vote.

I know I keep playing this fiddle, but THIS WASN'T ACCIDENTAL. This was orchestrated. Since the 2004 election, Republicans have been working furiously at local levels to close polls in poor and black areas, and to institute voter ID laws and other measures, like registration purges, to block poor and black voters, who trend strongly Democrat, from voting.

So without these laws rural/rust belt America would have voted Democrat? Do you still not understand what the electoral college is? Keep in mind, rural/rust belt America did vote Democrat for Obama twice. Very interested in your theory of how Obama won the raging white supremacist vote.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Junkenstein on December 01, 2016, 10:37:03 pm
That's not been claimed. What can be inferred is Romney didn't cater to them resulting in apathy.

Logic is useful.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on December 01, 2016, 11:07:05 pm
It isnt being claimed. It is a historic fact:

(http://www.trbimg.com/img-5727e65f/turbine/ct-electoral-map-20160502/650/650x366)

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/ElectoralCollege2008.svg/349px-ElectoralCollege2008.svg.png)

^This is the 2008 map btw, not the Romney map. So again, how did all these Obama states get taken over by literal Nazis?
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Junkenstein on December 01, 2016, 11:15:03 pm
Hmm, let's see:

Quote
I know I keep playing this fiddle, but THIS WASN'T ACCIDENTAL. This was orchestrated. Since the 2004 election, Republicans have been working furiously at local levels to close polls in poor and black areas, and to institute voter ID laws and other measures, like registration purges, to block poor and black voters, who trend strongly Democrat, from voting.

Oh, yeah.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on December 01, 2016, 11:17:37 pm
Hmm, let's see:

Quote
I know I keep playing this fiddle, but THIS WASN'T ACCIDENTAL. This was orchestrated. Since the 2004 election, Republicans have been working furiously at local levels to close polls in poor and black areas, and to institute voter ID laws and other measures, like registration purges, to block poor and black voters, who trend strongly Democrat, from voting.

Oh, yeah.

So again. Do you honestly think the rust belt would have voted for Clinton if it wasnt for "voter suppression"?
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Junkenstein on December 01, 2016, 11:48:24 pm
I point you to the numbers around the popular vote.

This isn't brain surgery. First past the post systems and derivatives thereof, such as the electoral college are great for giving shitty unrepresentative results.

Quote
Mind you, nonetheless, more than half of the people who did vote -- and it was not a small turnout by historic figures, at all, DESPITE voter suppression -- voted for Hillary Clinton DESPITE THE FACT THAT MANY OF THEM DIDN'T PARTICULARLY LIKE HER. Despite the fact that she's a woman. That's some pretty fucking impressive unity.

 
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on December 01, 2016, 11:54:57 pm
I point you to the numbers around the popular vote.

This isn't brain surgery. First past the post systems and derivatives thereof, such as the electoral college are great for giving shitty unrepresentative results.

Quote
Mind you, nonetheless, more than half of the people who did vote -- and it was not a small turnout by historic figures, at all, DESPITE voter suppression -- voted for Hillary Clinton DESPITE THE FACT THAT MANY OF THEM DIDN'T PARTICULARLY LIKE HER. Despite the fact that she's a woman. That's some pretty fucking impressive unity.

You see I already made a post before :

Requesting a thread split -- this thread is about Trump hilarity.

This is the thread where Rodger has been splitting all my posts that get split anyways

And Im surprised that someone with so many very impressive degrees doesnt understand the electoral college. Trump has 306, Clinton has 232. This is a landslide.

 :lulz:

Do you even know where you are? You seem lost.

Explain to me how 306 electoral votes againts 232 isnt a landslide.
The electoral vote was a landslide, the popular vote was pretty much even. That's not a win, that sounds like a cry for reform.
Two things:

1) Would this reform extend to the senate as well? Because its the same principle and few people ever bitch about it.

2) This would have been no guarantee against a Trump victory this year and if it ever happens would not guarantee a lack of future victories. As he himself explained, he built his campaign around scoring electoral votes because thats what it takes to win. If the election was based on the popular vote he would have altered his strategy for that.

Also, think about this for a moment. California and New York being the big contendors seems nice, but the other two heavy weights would be Texas and Florida. I know you think Trump is bad, but do you really really want every Republican candidate from this point on basing his platform on winning the Texan vote out of necessity?

   Which brings us to the point of the EC. America isnt a homogeneous nation, it has a lot of different interests and cultures. Without the EC (and the Senate) America would be run by Texas, Florida, New York and California with the rest of us all just along for the ride. Do you honestly want this? Just because Clinton won in some alternate reality what if fanfiction where Article II vanished on November 7th?


Btw Keep it up guys! The reason you lost is totally because you did so well! Such turnout! Much unity! Just keep reminding yourselves that you did nothing wrong, keep doing the same nothing wrong and the election is in the bag!
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Pergamos on December 02, 2016, 04:52:01 am

I don't think that there's a single approach that will win working-class people back left. I think we'll need a mix of education, pointing out Trump's failures, and a healthy feel-good dose of Shaming.


Sure there is, ditch wall street and support the working class.  Stop supporting trade agreements that export jobs, smash the finance industry when it tries to take advantage of students and middle class home owners, tax the shit out of the wealthy and stop taxing everyone else.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Cainad (dec.) on December 02, 2016, 12:33:08 pm
Lots of people don't vote because they don't feel like its very effective, and they are right to feel that.

And that's how they get the government they deserve.   :lulz:

Now I feel a bit foolish. Of course taking the ~20 minutes to vote is worth it. It is more effective than other things you could do in that time. I should have just said that they don't feel like its effective but not said they were right to feel so. I guess I am prone to defeatism.

There were areas where it was five to seven hours. Basically, places where people had to miss a full day of work, if they even had the option, in order to vote.

I know I keep playing this fiddle, but THIS WASN'T ACCIDENTAL. This was orchestrated. Since the 2004 election, Republicans have been working furiously at local levels to close polls in poor and black areas, and to institute voter ID laws and other measures, like registration purges, to block poor and black voters, who trend strongly Democrat, from voting.

So without these laws rural/rust belt America would have voted Democrat? Do you still not understand what the electoral college is? Keep in mind, rural/rust belt America did vote Democrat for Obama twice. Very interested in your theory of how Obama won the raging white supremacist vote.

That's a very interesting way of completely not responding to what Nigel actually said.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on December 02, 2016, 02:48:49 pm
Lots of people don't vote because they don't feel like its very effective, and they are right to feel that.

And that's how they get the government they deserve.   :lulz:

Now I feel a bit foolish. Of course taking the ~20 minutes to vote is worth it. It is more effective than other things you could do in that time. I should have just said that they don't feel like its effective but not said they were right to feel so. I guess I am prone to defeatism.

There were areas where it was five to seven hours. Basically, places where people had to miss a full day of work, if they even had the option, in order to vote.

I know I keep playing this fiddle, but THIS WASN'T ACCIDENTAL. This was orchestrated. Since the 2004 election, Republicans have been working furiously at local levels to close polls in poor and black areas, and to institute voter ID laws and other measures, like registration purges, to block poor and black voters, who trend strongly Democrat, from voting.

So without these laws rural/rust belt America would have voted Democrat? Do you still not understand what the electoral college is? Keep in mind, rural/rust belt America did vote Democrat for Obama twice. Very interested in your theory of how Obama won the raging white supremacist vote.

That's a very interesting way of completely not responding to what Nigel actually said.

She said that voter suppression against black voters played a major role in this election, after explaining why liberals did absolutely nothing wrong while losing control of the presidency, the legislature and the supreme court. I asked her if without voter suppression does she honestly think rural and rust belt America, you know the electoral votes that won this for Trump, would have been blue. But I guess that could be rephrased to, how would the electoral map have been different at all?

Note, "voter suppression" is just a variation of her previous point, that liberals made no mistakes and therefore dont have to introspect, change or learn at all from this crushing defeat.

Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 02, 2016, 04:23:44 pm
Lots of people don't vote because they don't feel like its very effective, and they are right to feel that.

And that's how they get the government they deserve.   :lulz:

Now I feel a bit foolish. Of course taking the ~20 minutes to vote is worth it. It is more effective than other things you could do in that time. I should have just said that they don't feel like its effective but not said they were right to feel so. I guess I am prone to defeatism.

There were areas where it was five to seven hours. Basically, places where people had to miss a full day of work, if they even had the option, in order to vote.

I know I keep playing this fiddle, but THIS WASN'T ACCIDENTAL. This was orchestrated. Since the 2004 election, Republicans have been working furiously at local levels to close polls in poor and black areas, and to institute voter ID laws and other measures, like registration purges, to block poor and black voters, who trend strongly Democrat, from voting.

So without these laws rural/rust belt America would have voted Democrat? Do you still not understand what the electoral college is? Keep in mind, rural/rust belt America did vote Democrat for Obama twice. Very interested in your theory of how Obama won the raging white supremacist vote.

That's a very interesting way of completely not responding to what Nigel actually said.

Eh, he's locked into a reality tunnel. Not worth the time to converse with, because he has already decided what he wants to believe, and information that counters his pre-formed beliefs can't get in.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 02, 2016, 04:25:10 pm
Also economic division...but that's not what im here to say now...

You don't think the poor are a marginalized and underrepresented group?
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 02, 2016, 04:39:21 pm
The people who voted for Donald Trump are the quintessence of Middle America: white middle-class people who believe in a particular midcentury ideal of the American Dream, one in which healthy happy nuclear families with a stay-at-home-mom go to church every Sunday. Black people, immigrants, gays, and single parents are not part of this vision; that's why they could so easily disregard ther well-being with their vote. They are racist, but it's the kind of passive racism that allows people to do grievous harm against black communities with their votes while claiming (and earnestly believing) that they are not racist. Abortion isn't an issue for them because good women get married and stay married while good men work hard to support their families. They cant have immigrants TAKING those jobs, that wouldn't be right, and gay people... well, that's alright as long as they keep it behind closed doors, and as long as it's not MY son or daughter because I didn't raise them like that.

It's not a mystery. They are the rosy-cheeked, suburban, middle-class, Christian, white, conservative American Dream. That's what they're fighting for. The ones that don't have it, want it, and they earnestly think that Donald Trump will lead them back into the dream of trickle-down economics by lifting burdens from the wealth creators like Ronald Reagan reborn from the ashes of the 80's.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joelkotkin/2016/11/09/donald-trumps-presidenti-victory-demographics/#16ec92b179a8
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-mythology-of-trumps-working-class-support/
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/
http://billmoyers.com/story/so-who-are-donald-trumps-voters/
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 02, 2016, 05:26:36 pm
I think this is an interesting article. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/dec/01/gamergate-alt-right-hate-trump?CMP=fb_gu&utm_content=buffer76b92&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on December 02, 2016, 06:21:54 pm
Seems Nigel understands your "position" quite well RP.

MY only question is how do you stay in that position like you do?
Having your head stuck so far up your ass to celebrate your inner "Darkness" has to be hard on your spine.

Maybe you should take a break.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 02, 2016, 07:25:51 pm
Seems Nigel understands your "position" quite well RP.

MY only question is how do you stay in that position like you do?
Having your head stuck so far up your ass to celebrate your inner "Darkness" has to be hard on your spine.

Maybe you should take a break.

Not a single word of what I wrote above is new or revelatory. It's all been posted, along with most if not all of those links, by myself, Cain, or some other spag at some point. He just doesn't want to read it or pay attention to anything that might unsettle his weird little bubble of armchair sociology.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on December 02, 2016, 07:44:49 pm
I think this is an interesting article. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/dec/01/gamergate-alt-right-hate-trump?CMP=fb_gu&utm_content=buffer76b92&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

> IT IS CURRENT YEAR AND PEOPLE STILL CARE ABOUT GAMERGATE

The people who voted for Donald Trump are the quintessence of Middle America: white middle-class people who believe in a particular midcentury ideal of the American Dream, one in which healthy happy nuclear families with a stay-at-home-mom go to church every Sunday. Black people, immigrants, gays, and single parents are not part of this vision; that's why they could so easily disregard ther well-being with their vote. They are racist, but it's the kind of passive racism that allows people to do grievous harm against black communities with their votes while claiming (and earnestly believing) that they are not racist. Abortion isn't an issue for them because good women get married and stay married while good men work hard to support their families. They cant have immigrants TAKING those jobs, that wouldn't be right, and gay people... well, that's alright as long as they keep it behind closed doors, and as long as it's not MY son or daughter because I didn't raise them like that.

It's not a mystery. They are the rosy-cheeked, suburban, middle-class, Christian, white, conservative American Dream. That's what they're fighting for. The ones that don't have it, want it, and they earnestly think that Donald Trump will lead them back into the dream of trickle-down economics by lifting burdens from the wealth creators like Ronald Reagan reborn from the ashes of the 80's.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joelkotkin/2016/11/09/donald-trumps-presidenti-victory-demographics/#16ec92b179a8
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-mythology-of-trumps-working-class-support/
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/behind-trumps-victory-divisions-by-race-gender-education/
http://billmoyers.com/story/so-who-are-donald-trumps-voters/


Hurr durr:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CxC7-c-UkAArnBV.jpg)

Bear in mind again, this was not a popular election it was an electoral one. That surge of voters, even though it didnt win him the majority of the poor vote, won him the electoral votes of mostly poor rust belt states which ended up deciding the election. These are people who voted for Obama twice but now voted for Trump.

Also, from your own fucking source that you just posted:
Quote
This is not to say that Trump voters are happy about the condition of the economy. Substantial majorities of Republicans in every state so far have said they’re “very worried” about the condition of the U.S. economy, according to exit polls, and these voters have been more likely to vote for Trump. But that anxiety doesn’t necessarily reflect their personal economic circumstances, which for many Trump voters, at least in a relative sense, are reasonably good.

Even his more well off voters were voting very largely on the issue of the economy. Why are you so absolutely dead set on ignoring the economy as a factor in the election?
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: LMNO on December 02, 2016, 07:52:16 pm
He seems to want to engage in link-for-link pedantry, whereas we take previously establish links as, well, previously established.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on December 02, 2016, 07:57:08 pm
He seems to want to engage in link-for-link pedantry, whereas we take previously establish links as, well, previously established.

What
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: LMNO on December 02, 2016, 08:24:19 pm
He seems to want to engage in link-for-link pedantry, whereas we take previously establish links as, well, previously established.

What

Keep fucking that chicken, pal.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Mesozoic Mister Nigel on December 02, 2016, 10:35:15 pm
He seems to want to engage in link-for-link pedantry, whereas we take previously establish links as, well, previously established.

I don't think he really looks at threads other than his own, so he probably missed those conversations. Being completely self-absorbed will do that to a person.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on December 02, 2016, 10:51:36 pm
He seems to want to engage in link-for-link pedantry, whereas we take previously establish links as, well, previously established.

I don't think he really looks at threads other than his own, so he probably missed those conversations. Being completely self-absorbed will do that to a person.

Ok Im awful. What was wrong with what I posted?
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on December 02, 2016, 11:00:55 pm
He seems to want to engage in link-for-link pedantry, whereas we take previously establish links as, well, previously established.

I don't think he really looks at threads other than his own, so he probably missed those conversations. Being completely self-absorbed will do that to a person.

I blame the Magick Training He Clearly Didn't Get (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tt74NDi7pQA)
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on December 02, 2016, 11:02:27 pm
He seems to want to engage in link-for-link pedantry, whereas we take previously establish links as, well, previously established.

I don't think he really looks at threads other than his own, so he probably missed those conversations. Being completely self-absorbed will do that to a person.

I blame the Magick Training He Clearly Didn't Get (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tt74NDi7pQA)

Whats your current spiritual practice? PM me or start a new thread I dont want to derail.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on December 02, 2016, 11:47:09 pm
He seems to want to engage in link-for-link pedantry, whereas we take previously establish links as, well, previously established.

I don't think he really looks at threads other than his own, so he probably missed those conversations. Being completely self-absorbed will do that to a person.

I blame the Magick Training He Clearly Didn't Get (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tt74NDi7pQA)

Whats your current spiritual practice? PM me or start a new thread I dont want to derail.

 :spit:
:wasp:
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 02, 2016, 11:56:15 pm
He seems to want to engage in link-for-link pedantry, whereas we take previously establish links as, well, previously established.

I don't think he really looks at threads other than his own, so he probably missed those conversations. Being completely self-absorbed will do that to a person.

I blame the Magick Training He Clearly Didn't Get (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tt74NDi7pQA)

Whats your current spiritual practice? PM me or start a new thread I dont want to derail.

 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on December 03, 2016, 12:04:30 am
He seems to want to engage in link-for-link pedantry, whereas we take previously establish links as, well, previously established.

I don't think he really looks at threads other than his own, so he probably missed those conversations. Being completely self-absorbed will do that to a person.

I blame the Magick Training He Clearly Didn't Get (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tt74NDi7pQA)

Whats your current spiritual practice? PM me or start a new thread I dont want to derail.

 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

Magic is literally real and was a deciding factor in the 2016 election. I will debate this with anyone.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on December 03, 2016, 12:10:57 am
He seems to want to engage in link-for-link pedantry, whereas we take previously establish links as, well, previously established.

I don't think he really looks at threads other than his own, so he probably missed those conversations. Being completely self-absorbed will do that to a person.

I blame the Magick Training He Clearly Didn't Get (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tt74NDi7pQA)

Whats your current spiritual practice? PM me or start a new thread I dont want to derail.

 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

Magic is literally real and was a deciding factor in the 2016 election. I will debate this with anyone.

 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

THAT is the best part!
 :omg:
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: The Good Reverend Roger on December 03, 2016, 03:37:19 am
He seems to want to engage in link-for-link pedantry, whereas we take previously establish links as, well, previously established.

I don't think he really looks at threads other than his own, so he probably missed those conversations. Being completely self-absorbed will do that to a person.

I blame the Magick Training He Clearly Didn't Get (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tt74NDi7pQA)

Whats your current spiritual practice? PM me or start a new thread I dont want to derail.

 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

Magic is literally real and was a deciding factor in the 2016 election. I will debate this with anyone.

 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: xXRon_Paul_42016Xxx(weed) on December 03, 2016, 02:41:12 pm
Still waiting for an answer.
Title: Re: Turning Purple
Post by: Ben Shapiro on December 14, 2016, 05:36:38 pm
He seems to want to engage in link-for-link pedantry, whereas we take previously establish links as, well, previously established.

I don't think he really looks at threads other than his own, so he probably missed those conversations. Being completely self-absorbed will do that to a person.

I blame the Magick Training He Clearly Didn't Get (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tt74NDi7pQA)

Whats your current spiritual practice? PM me or start a new thread I dont want to derail.

 :lulz: :lulz: :lulz:

Magic is literally real and was a deciding factor in the 2016 election. I will debate this with anyone.