Principia Discordia

Principia Discordia => Apple Talk => Topic started by: Cramulus on March 12, 2019, 01:15:02 pm

Title: Capeshit
Post by: Cramulus on March 12, 2019, 01:15:02 pm
I don't know why I needed to start a topic about this. Not liking something isn't usually an interesting opinion, so this post contains zero calories. But I gotta get it off my chest. I can't stand 99% of Superhero fiction.

I think it started when I saw Blade in theaters. Everybody I went with was like "that was so fuckin cool", and I was like... really? Every time he kills a dude, he does an absurd pose as if he knows there's a camera there. It's weird, that stuff doesn't bug me as much when it's an animation or a comic book, but when you film live people doing things that make sense for a still frame, the whole thing breaks down for me. It just seems corny to me.

Maybe my hangup is believability. When I see a film with live actors, it seems more relatable and immersive, so certain things bug me more. In a cartoon, if Batman's doing this gravelly character-voice, it works. But Christian Bale doing the cookie monster voice doesn't seem cool. Like if I were there in person, I'd be like "why is this guy talking like that, is he sick?"

There are exceptions. I really liked (most of) the Nolan Batmans. I liked Watchmen, probably because it's critical of the whole superhero genre. I've only seen a couple of the rando superhero movies like Dr. Strange, and they successfully killed 2.5 hours of time on a plane, so that was satisfying.

I like the moment in the first X-Men movie, where they put on the outfits for the first time, and Wolverine is like "What, you expected a yellow leotard?" Because yeah, it acknowledged that not everything in the comics is gonna work in a live format. I wish that logic was applied to almost every aspect of superhero movies.

Don't get me wrong - I'm into some nerdy shit, so this isn't me being on a high horse about how superhero trash is childish or anything. You're allowed to like it, you do you. My hobby is putting on elf ears and saying Thou, so I am not sitting in a position to condescend on anybody. I'm just saying they're not for me. But the problem is, all of my hobbies are filled with people who get all sweaty when some obscure bubblegum character gets their own feature film. So I'm constantly having the same conversation "OH DID YOU SEE JESSICA JONES? I WATCHED THE WHOLE THING IN 9 MINUTES", "ah, no, missed that one." and then they say GOD DAMN over and over again while wiggling their eyebrows at me.

Then comes the evangelists... DID YOU WATCH UMBRELLA ACADEMY? no, it doesn't seem like my cup of tea. BUT YOU GOTTA CHECK IT OUT.  You know, I don't get into the superhero stuff that much. THIS IS DIFFERENT, IT'S REALLY CHARACTER DRIVEN. yeah but uhhhh so is the Full House reboot, have you seen that?

Getting back to the Alan Moore vibe... I wonder sometimes about why these things are so popular, aside from the spectacle. What is it, exactly, about the superhero genre that people keep flocking to?

Is it the fantasy of the benevolent tyrant? We live in times that are complex and grey, so there is a desire for simplicity--for some unimpeachable strongman to show up and do a fight that makes everything good again?

Can you imagine what the world would actually be like if a handful of random people had superpowers? Can you imagine what elections would be like? What about regular law enforcement, how would that square with the normalization of vigilante justice? What about the intersection of power and celebrity? Superheroes would have ad deals and would go on podcasts. They'd be on commercials and SNL skits. There would be movies about them, and what the fuck would that look like?

Or, imagine if the Weird Science that gave Peter Parker spider powers was an over the counter medication. If some teenager can accidentally mutate into a badass, then big pharma would start rolling out FDA trials and selling it to the ultra-rich. It would be kinda like if everybody had a rocket launcher and a secret identity, the world would not be a better place.

So maybe these last two paragraphs tell me that I could like capeshit if it were framed differently. There's probably some good ones out there that I'd really like if I gave them a chance--but I dunno, there's a lot of media out there, I don't feel like I am really missing anything.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on March 12, 2019, 01:40:50 pm
Then comes the evangelists... DID YOU WATCH UMBRELLA ACADEMY? no, it doesn't seem like my cup of tea.
I watched the first episode, or some of it, anyway.  The characters were flat, and the writing was uninspired.

Quote
Can you imagine what the world would actually be like if a handful of random people had superpowers? Can you imagine what elections would be like? What about regular law enforcement, how would that square with the normalization of vigilante justice? What about the intersection of power and celebrity?
In the anime series "My Hero Academia", practically everyone has superpowers (although only a few of them have practical value).  In order to practice as a superhero, you need to be trained and licensed.  Unfortunately, the series doesn't explore this idea very much.

Quote
Superheroes would have ad deals and would go on podcasts. They'd be on commercials and SNL skits.
In "Mystery Men", Captain Amazing has the logos of his corporate sponsors on his costume. It was hilarious.  We need more superhero deconstruction movies.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: The Johnny on March 12, 2019, 02:40:44 pm
Yeah like, the suspension of disbelief i feel its very important too for me, so if any scene, be it combat or dialogue is TELEGRAPHED CLEARLY as "im performing for you, oh audience, wasnt what i just did so cool???" i just think to myself "bro please just perform and pretend im not here, youre breaking the 4th wall and ruining it for everybody for no reason" - its analogous to something like laugh tracks that producers use to tell me that something is supposed to be funny because allegedly as a consumer i must have 50 IQ and cant be expected to know its funny, so any kind of telegraphy telling me i should be laughing or being impressed i feel its demeaning.

At least in the Dark Knight Trilogy i think its emphasized that Batman, the Joker and other characters are complete nutjobs, so them being so over the top for me doesnt break the immersion... its pathological sickos fighting each other for their own personal reasons.

And why superhero movies are popular? Id agree that its sometimes a want for a clearly defined black white morality, but its also some kind of detachment from responsability... everyone believes in "justice", whatever it means personally to each person, but how many are willing to do something beyond signing a change.org petition or sharing on facebook? So it justifies their lack of action by means of how only people with superpowers or billionaires have agency/power to change things

Also, the hero trope is older than dirt, even if superheroes are a degeneration of it... one could speak of Joseph Campbell and the Hero of a Thousand Faces.

P.S. All the Thano's saga is just a mediocre film adaptation of neo-malthussian ideas
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: LMNO on March 12, 2019, 02:48:00 pm
It provides the illusion of black-and-white morality.  Yes, even in the "grey-ish" Nolan stuff.

Plus, most often it's a trope checklist, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.  It's like campfire songs: Pretty much everyone knows them, so everybody can sing along and share in the experience.


EDITED TO ADD: I like superhero movies.  Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, and Guardians of the Galaxy were great.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Faust on March 12, 2019, 05:06:05 pm
Superheroes are a plot device, not a genre, they are only as good as the writer, themes and character exploration they perform.
All of the superhero films since Burtons are garbage (nolans Joker was good but on a re-watch, there is a lot of bluster to those films with very little substance).

Here comes an unsolicited WHATABOUT list which you probably don't want considering what you said, but here are some I consider to be the good stories.

The comics however have well written exceptions, but they dont tend to be popular.
Barring what you mentioned with watchmen, which is NOT a superhero story it is a critic of power fantasy and the dangerous morality of that (Ozemandias plot was a reflection of the logical outcome of)
Miracle Man is a scary comparison to Zarathustra that nicely compliments watchmen
Swamp thing (deals with a lot of complex themes, nicely played relationships and some of the mysticism reads almost like biblical parable, the death of Zatarro hurts)

Irrideemable is a wonderful superman / mad god parable of what happens when he goes beyond bad to irredeemable and the reason it has weight is The Plutonians snap, isn't portrayed as a sudden thing, but a gradual breakdown that is the logical outcome of his life. It flubs the very end but its a great journey.

Doom patrol (Garth Ennis, Keith Giffen and Gerard ways) for just surrealism with broken people works really well but you can barely call them a superhero team.
I wont talk about the Invisibles because I know you've read it Cram, it's still one of my favorites.

Watchmen being a critical analysis of superheroes is both formal and attempts to be fair to the story type... but Garth Ennis The Boys does not. It's mean spirited, sick sense of humor fun all the way but goes out of its way to attack all the established tropes of superheroes. It's got well developed characters as well despite its initial crass superficial story telling with occasional moments of genuine heart.

Starman Omibus. One of the worst things about superheroes is because they have to go on forever they can never have lasting changes or ends. This has a beautiful story arc with a definitive ending about the brother of star man who reluctantly takes up the mantle, before getting his arch nemesis pregnant and needing to deal with the outcome of that.

The bottom line is, follow talented writers, not characters and there are good stories to be had (Moore, Mark Maid, Garth Ennis, Brian azzerello, Jonathan Hickman, generally wont let you down).

For Films (fuck all, cheeseburger films)
For TV, Legion (surreal portrayal of a mentally ill person who also is a danger to himself and others because he has powers that occasionally goes up its own ass), Titans (1 season establishing with human frail characters) but it and thats about it.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 12, 2019, 05:42:14 pm
Hancock was the only good superhero movie ever made.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: LMNO on March 12, 2019, 05:45:46 pm
Oooh, Faust.... Good call with Legion on FX.  That is by far one of my favorite comic book representations.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: The Johnny on March 12, 2019, 06:02:23 pm

Open question to all: does anybody like Deadpool?

I dont know for a fact and im just going off on first impressions, but isnt he the end-game of bad superhero writing?
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: LMNO on March 12, 2019, 06:08:29 pm
I was under the impression that Batman v Superman owned that title.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 12, 2019, 06:11:56 pm

Open question to all: does anybody like Deadpool?

I dont know for a fact and im just going off on first impressions, but isnt he the end-game of bad superhero writing?

Well, yes.  But it was intended to be exactly that, and had its moments.

But it's no Hancock.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: LMNO on March 12, 2019, 06:32:54 pm
Fine.  You're making me remember I watched Hancock.




I hate you.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: The Wizard Joseph on March 12, 2019, 06:35:14 pm
Hancock was the only good superhero movie ever made.

Is that the one with Will Smith as the alcoholic superhero? If so I really loved it. The part where he tosses the kid up in the air is amazing
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Hoopla! on March 12, 2019, 06:42:37 pm

Open question to all: does anybody like Deadpool?

I dont know for a fact and im just going off on first impressions, but isnt he the end-game of bad superhero writing?

I like Deadpool, but he stole Ambush Bug’s schtick, which means we will never get an Ambush Bug movie - that is likely both a blessing and a curse.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: LMNO on March 12, 2019, 06:43:27 pm
Hancock was the only good superhero movie ever made.

Is that the one with Will Smith as the alcoholic superhero? If so I really loved it. The part where he tosses the kid up in the air is amazing

The first half was fun, the second half was an ungodly mess.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Faust on March 12, 2019, 07:00:40 pm
Deadpool has one of the best,  of the very few human relationships  in all the superhero films combined. Vanessa and wade are interesting characters... deadpool and the so so humour not so much
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Hoopla! on March 12, 2019, 07:06:20 pm
What they did with Vanessa in part 2 was pretty unfortunate.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: nullified on March 12, 2019, 07:45:53 pm
Snip

So you should probably read Worm. It deals with quite literally all of your complaints, up to and including selling superpowers and random people having powers being a horrible thing. And the stupid costumes, even. And secret identities and seriously, I think it covers every single thing you mentioned.

https://parahumans.wordpress.com

It’s not in comic or movie form, but it is a surprisingly “real” take on the genre. Also has some really good characters, and some excellent societal commentary as time goes on. First two arcs are slow, leaning into annoying, but it picks up pace fast enough and doesn’t stop accelerating. By arc 8 the wheels come off and the rockets kick in, and you’re only just about through the intro.

It’s also fucking huge. I wouldn’t blame you if you skipped it on size alone.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: T̼̞̼ͅr̳̬̤̖̱͚̮̘̜̦̦i̲̩̝͕̣̲̪v̺͇̫̯͉͖͈͖͔̺̰̣͉̟̻̫̭i̦̖Q on March 12, 2019, 08:30:51 pm
I like superhero movies and I like sci fi and fantasy and general not real things.  I can't tell you why I like them though, just do.

Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Al Qədic on March 12, 2019, 10:00:58 pm
But the problem is, all of my hobbies are filled with people who get all sweaty when some obscure bubblegum character gets their own feature film. So I'm constantly having the same conversation "OH DID YOU SEE JESSICA JONES? I WATCHED THE WHOLE THING IN 9 MINUTES", "ah, no, missed that one." and then they say GOD DAMN over and over again while wiggling their eyebrows at me.

Then comes the evangelists... DID YOU WATCH UMBRELLA ACADEMY? no, it doesn't seem like my cup of tea. BUT YOU GOTTA CHECK IT OUT.  You know, I don't get into the superhero stuff that much. THIS IS DIFFERENT, IT'S REALLY CHARACTER DRIVEN. yeah but uhhhh so is the Full House reboot, have you seen that?

100% this. I have a friend who's fanatical about the MCU. I listen to her ramble in a chatroom and I think "Ok. But why do I care?" This is a woman who sees movies on a near constant basis, tries to get tickets day-one, and bemoans the loss of the Good Old Days™ while still singing the praises of Infinity War and Black Panther. Aside from her incessant "Did you see this? You should. Its good. Are you gonna see it?" nattery, she just exudes this...gluttony, for lack of a better word, about it all.

Sure, Infinity War is a neat idea. The thought of all these characters coming together is swell. Black Panther exists? Whee, more black superheroes (Static Shock is better anyway :lulz:). But again, I wonder, "why do I care?" Why do I want to see the Avengers team up with the Guardians of The Galaxy? I don't care about most of these characters, and the ones I care about, I don't really care about. Do I care because the stakes are so high? This is capeshit; no matter how many times Thanos snaps his big shiny glove, characters are just going to come back in another movie because multiverse shenanigans, or their own standalone films. Their deaths mean zilch.

The thing that really chafes my cloaca about capeshit, at least and especially where the MCU is involved, is the absolute glut of media we get.

The MCU had 2 films in '08, 1 film in '10, 2 films in '11, 1 film in '12, 2 films in '13 to '16, 3 films in '17 and '18, and at least 3 this year. That's 20+ movies in just over 10 years! And that's not counting any of the comics, short films, or TV shows (whose plots, of course, serve some importance to the overall story and character development and yadda yadda).

The DCEU had 1 film in '13, 2 films in '16 and '17,  and 1 in '18. That's 6 movies over 5 years. The MCU has almost 4x the movies in just double the time!

The DCEU might have had some flops in there (Suicide Squad, plus I just personally don't understand the logic of casting Jason Momoa as Aquaman), and the MCU movies range from okay to spectacular in quality and sales, but sweet Jesus tapdancing Christ I don't get how the fandom doesn't get utterly burned out on this shit.

Maybe that's an indicator of how much "better" Marvel is, and it's a move that's paid off for them, but I don't want to watch that many movies just to understand what the funny men in CGI capes are doing. Going back to my obsessive friend; you wonder why I complain about how many movies there are? Because screw you, that's why! :argh!:


...that is all.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: The Johnny on March 13, 2019, 06:29:23 am

Well, theres the thing about squeezing the juice out of a brand till its dry too, which is a safe economic strategy. Its about zero risk economic profit. Why write someting new that can flop if you can remake Ghostbusters and make movies out of prestiged comics? Why in Star Wars not write episode VII as a remake of episode IV? Same reason why we need a 9th Chucky movie.

-Joh'Nyx, waiting for the remake of Critters

(P.S. at least the Emoji movies were trying to be original)
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Cain on March 13, 2019, 07:36:11 am
The modern entertainment industry seems predicated on selling people their childhood back to them in a somewhat more acceptable adult packaging.

Since I never really read comics as a kid, I'm not exactly excited about superhero films either (unless Taika Waititi directs another one). I was willing to give the Netflix stuff a fair shake, but only due to Daredevil and Jessica Jones actually being somewhat decent, which was entirely down to Vincent D'Onofrio and Krysten Ritter respectively (and boy did that bite me in the ass when I risked Iron Fist. There's seven hours I will never get back).

There could be an element of, uh, moral clarity with superhero films that may explain their appeal. Especially when other geeky genres are embracing a grimdark and deconstructionist approach to their tropes (looking at you, fantasy), having something that goes "these are the good guys, lets go" could have a certain amount of positivity.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Eater of Clowns on March 13, 2019, 10:52:01 am
There was a comic store near my school called American Mythology and I've always thought it neatly captures the wide appeal of superhero stories. We don't believe in Superman like the Greeks used to believe in Heracles but can't you just picture some little kid thousands of years ago gushing about a monster with twelve heads that grew two more every time it was chopped off? You should be thankful that all we do is make movies about ours instead of making statues and building shrines.

I will say that for as ubiquitous as the movies have become recently, there is one small part of it all I like. Disney is giving some big time work to small and interesting directors right now. Taika Waititi, currently one of my favorites, went from directing a mockumentary about modern vampires living in New Zealand to directing a Thor movie. It wasn't bad, as far as superhero movies go, but it was successful enough that he could come off of that and do pretty much whatever he wanted creatively. So he's choosing to make a Hitler Youth camp comedy where he plays the protagonist's imaginary friend Hitler.

I'm a little interested to see what happens when the draw of these movies wanes. Are we going to start getting weird with it?
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Faust on March 13, 2019, 12:12:16 pm
Taika Waititi is a brilliant comedy writer, the kiwi sense of humor. Thor Rangernok is enjoyable from start to finish, has very little substance, but it's a fun ride without much to think about after which is all marvel really do now. If he did another Thor I would definitely watch it.

Thor being thick as shit, and a power fantasy kind of works for his character as well, it almost gets a pass on the simplistic morality and character depth because he is a god, and gods don't need to justify their choices.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: T̼̞̼ͅr̳̬̤̖̱͚̮̘̜̦̦i̲̩̝͕̣̲̪v̺͇̫̯͉͖͈͖͔̺̰̣͉̟̻̫̭i̦̖Q on March 13, 2019, 01:15:25 pm
Jessica Jones is good, but I wouldn't recommend it to most people because it's so damn depressing.  "Hey I have PTSD and my family is dead! Follow me on my wacky adventures!"
Also I don't want to discover one of my friends is the type that thinks the Purple Man is just misunderstood and is really a good romantic interest.   

Umbrella Academy was good for the anti superhero thing.  All but one of the kids who were superheros called it quits and you mostly stick with the story after.  Plus it has time traveling assassins who were just corporate drones.

Thor Ragnarok I'd recommend to anyone because it's fun.

I liked the Punisher series on Netflix, but the concept of the Punisher as a good guy just feeds the whole fascist police folks. 
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Cain on March 13, 2019, 02:15:18 pm
thinks the Purple Man is just misunderstood and is really a good romantic interest.

(https://i.redd.it/iljr79ajguo11.jpg)
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: T̼̞̼ͅr̳̬̤̖̱͚̮̘̜̦̦i̲̩̝͕̣̲̪v̺͇̫̯͉͖͈͖͔̺̰̣͉̟̻̫̭i̦̖Q on March 13, 2019, 02:33:14 pm
thinks the Purple Man is just misunderstood and is really a good romantic interest.

(https://i.redd.it/iljr79ajguo11.jpg)

 :horrormirth:
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Hoopla! on March 13, 2019, 02:35:40 pm
I grew up reading comics but could more or less take or leave most of the movies. I see a fair amount of them, and often enjoy myself while I am there and then generally never think of them again. It’s time will pass when they stop making money... on the other hand, we are currently in something of a renaissance for slow burn moody horror movies, which I am LOVING.

Back to comics for a second... I really wosh we could go back to a pre-Harley Quinn world. /rant
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: T̼̞̼ͅr̳̬̤̖̱͚̮̘̜̦̦i̲̩̝͕̣̲̪v̺͇̫̯͉͖͈͖͔̺̰̣͉̟̻̫̭i̦̖Q on March 13, 2019, 02:43:35 pm
Back to comics for a second... I really wosh we could go back to a pre-Harley Quinn world. /rant

Holy crap this.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: The Johnny on March 13, 2019, 03:21:44 pm
Back to comics for a second... I really wosh we could go back to a pre-Harley Quinn world. /rant

Holy crap this.

Why? I loved her in the animated series, shes one of those ambivalent characters between good and evil that adds some depth.

But the Suicide Squad Harley i would def say something among the lines of:

(https://i.redd.it/53bibukrcl821.jpg)
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: T̼̞̼ͅr̳̬̤̖̱͚̮̘̜̦̦i̲̩̝͕̣̲̪v̺͇̫̯͉͖͈͖͔̺̰̣͉̟̻̫̭i̦̖Q on March 13, 2019, 03:33:24 pm
Back to comics for a second... I really wosh we could go back to a pre-Harley Quinn world. /rant

Holy crap this.

Why? I loved her in the animated series, shes one of those ambivalent characters between good and evil that adds some depth.

But the Suicide Squad Harley i would def say something among the lines of:

(https://i.redd.it/53bibukrcl821.jpg)

I liked her in the animated series, it's the aftermath of it though. 

It's like, ooh look ice cream, I like ice cream.  Then suddenly NINE TONS OF ICE CREAM BECAUSE YOU SAID YOU LIKED IT. 


Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Hoopla! on March 13, 2019, 03:45:25 pm
Back to comics for a second... I really wosh we could go back to a pre-Harley Quinn world. /rant

Holy crap this.

Why? I loved her in the animated series, shes one of those ambivalent characters between good and evil that adds some depth.

But the Suicide Squad Harley i would def say something among the lines of:

(https://i.redd.it/53bibukrcl821.jpg)

Because the Joker doesn’t need a sidekick, and I feel like it softened him as a character somehow. This guy shouldn’t be developing relationships. He’s barely human.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: The Johnny on March 13, 2019, 03:58:37 pm
Back to comics for a second... I really wosh we could go back to a pre-Harley Quinn world. /rant

Holy crap this.

Why? I loved her in the animated series, shes one of those ambivalent characters between good and evil that adds some depth.

But the Suicide Squad Harley i would def say something among the lines of:

(https://i.redd.it/53bibukrcl821.jpg)

Because the Joker doesn’t need a sidekick, and I feel like it softened him as a character somehow. This guy shouldn’t be developing relationships. He’s barely human.

What does being or not human even mean?  :lulz:

But i kinda see a point... I vaguely remember that there were apparently "genuine" moments in which Joker seemed to care about her and get mushy beyond of what Harley Quinn needed to keep her "under his spell" which does break Jokers character and does unreasonably soften him for the sake of a childrens series "love shipping".

So maybe the core problem is how Joker treats Harley, not Harley in herself which is a complex multi-dimensional character... a psychiatrist and representative of "medical law" that falls for this criminal loon, but has moments in which she comes to her senses and breaks away from him... Harley actually has dilemmas and uncertainties, while Batman and the Joker are just monolitich memes.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Hoopla! on March 13, 2019, 04:41:55 pm
Back to comics for a second... I really wosh we could go back to a pre-Harley Quinn world. /rant

Holy crap this.

Why? I loved her in the animated series, shes one of those ambivalent characters between good and evil that adds some depth.

But the Suicide Squad Harley i would def say something among the lines of:

(https://i.redd.it/53bibukrcl821.jpg)

Because the Joker doesn’t need a sidekick, and I feel like it softened him as a character somehow. This guy shouldn’t be developing relationships. He’s barely human.

What does being or not human even mean?  :lulz:

But i kinda see a point... I vaguely remember that there were apparently "genuine" moments in which Joker seemed to care about her and get mushy beyond of what Harley Quinn needed to keep her "under his spell" which does break Jokers character and does unreasonably soften him for the sake of a childrens series "love shipping".

So maybe the core problem is how Joker treats Harley, not Harley in herself which is a complex multi-dimensional character... a psychiatrist and representative of "medical law" that falls for this criminal loon, but has moments in which she comes to her senses and breaks away from him... Harley actually has dilemmas and uncertainties, while Batman and the Joker are just monolitich memes.

Sorry for sort of derailing, Cram.

1. On Joker as a non-person: he doesn’t have any discernible likes or hates, he doesn’t even seem to hate Batman most of the time. Does he have hobbies, other than causing mayhem? What frightens him, if anything? He’s a storytelling decice, a force of nature, but rarely anything resembling a person in the full sense of the word. Even Hannibal Lecter has more humam characteristcs, and he is one of the least believeable characters in modern fiction.

B. On her own I have no real issue with Harley. The episodes where she is in a relationship with Ivy ate actually pretty good. My issue is strictly when she is connected to Joker, which is a lot.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Pergamos on March 13, 2019, 05:42:59 pm
Snip

So you should probably read Worm. It deals with quite literally all of your complaints, up to and including selling superpowers and random people having powers being a horrible thing. And the stupid costumes, even. And secret identities and seriously, I think it covers every single thing you mentioned.

https://parahumans.wordpress.com

It’s not in comic or movie form, but it is a surprisingly “real” take on the genre. Also has some really good characters, and some excellent societal commentary as time goes on. First two arcs are slow, leaning into annoying, but it picks up pace fast enough and doesn’t stop accelerating. By arc 8 the wheels come off and the rockets kick in, and you’re only just about through the intro.

It’s also fucking huge. I wouldn’t blame you if you skipped it on size alone.
I'm reading, and enjoying it.  It reads as fanfic written by an adolescent though so I wouldn't personally reccomend it as a way to redeem the superhero genre.  A talented adolescent mind you, not knocking it, and that might be exactly the portal some people need to appreciate the idea of superheroes.  I just wouldn't peg Cram as one of those people.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: nullified on March 13, 2019, 10:15:15 pm
Snip

So you should probably read Worm. It deals with quite literally all of your complaints, up to and including selling superpowers and random people having powers being a horrible thing. And the stupid costumes, even. And secret identities and seriously, I think it covers every single thing you mentioned.

https://parahumans.wordpress.com

It’s not in comic or movie form, but it is a surprisingly “real” take on the genre. Also has some really good characters, and some excellent societal commentary as time goes on. First two arcs are slow, leaning into annoying, but it picks up pace fast enough and doesn’t stop accelerating. By arc 8 the wheels come off and the rockets kick in, and you’re only just about through the intro.

It’s also fucking huge. I wouldn’t blame you if you skipped it on size alone.
I'm reading, and enjoying it.  It reads as fanfic written by an adolescent though so I wouldn't personally reccomend it as a way to redeem the superhero genre.  A talented adolescent mind you, not knocking it, and that might be exactly the portal some people need to appreciate the idea of superheroes.  I just wouldn't peg Cram as one of those people.

That’s the introductory part. I find the adolescent POV annoying, and it quickly gets buried under all the other stuff.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 13, 2019, 11:47:20 pm
Back to comics for a second... I really wosh we could go back to a pre-Harley Quinn world. /rant

Holy crap this.

Why? I loved her in the animated series, shes one of those ambivalent characters between good and evil that adds some depth.

But the Suicide Squad Harley i would def say something among the lines of:

(https://i.redd.it/53bibukrcl821.jpg)

Because the Joker doesn’t need a sidekick, and I feel like it softened him as a character somehow. This guy shouldn’t be developing relationships. He’s barely human.

What does being or not human even mean?  :lulz:

But i kinda see a point... I vaguely remember that there were apparently "genuine" moments in which Joker seemed to care about her and get mushy beyond of what Harley Quinn needed to keep her "under his spell" which does break Jokers character and does unreasonably soften him for the sake of a childrens series "love shipping".

So maybe the core problem is how Joker treats Harley, not Harley in herself which is a complex multi-dimensional character... a psychiatrist and representative of "medical law" that falls for this criminal loon, but has moments in which she comes to her senses and breaks away from him... Harley actually has dilemmas and uncertainties, while Batman and the Joker are just monolitich memes.

Even absolute pyschopaths can fall in love.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: The Johnny on March 14, 2019, 12:07:38 am
Back to comics for a second... I really wosh we could go back to a pre-Harley Quinn world. /rant

Holy crap this.

Why? I loved her in the animated series, shes one of those ambivalent characters between good and evil that adds some depth.

But the Suicide Squad Harley i would def say something among the lines of:

(https://i.redd.it/53bibukrcl821.jpg)

Because the Joker doesn’t need a sidekick, and I feel like it softened him as a character somehow. This guy shouldn’t be developing relationships. He’s barely human.

What does being or not human even mean?  :lulz:

But i kinda see a point... I vaguely remember that there were apparently "genuine" moments in which Joker seemed to care about her and get mushy beyond of what Harley Quinn needed to keep her "under his spell" which does break Jokers character and does unreasonably soften him for the sake of a childrens series "love shipping".

So maybe the core problem is how Joker treats Harley, not Harley in herself which is a complex multi-dimensional character... a psychiatrist and representative of "medical law" that falls for this criminal loon, but has moments in which she comes to her senses and breaks away from him... Harley actually has dilemmas and uncertainties, while Batman and the Joker are just monolitich memes.

Even absolute pyschopaths can fall in love.

That argument is among the lines of what i was saying with "what does not human even mean?" in regards of him not having any kind of relationship.

From public discourse to manuals on psychopathology were told that true psychopaths feel zero empathy and that others are merely playthings or objects... and maybe its just what we would like to think, its more comftable to think that these people are not human, that they are merely monsters disguised as human, its more comforting than the alternate idea that every average Joe/Hans can participate in genocide just like it happened in Nazi germany.

I dont have a real solid unchanging posture on it, but maybe thats what people hate about Harley Quinn, shes flawed and ambivalent and that makes her human, and she brings out the humanity in Batman in the way he shows mercy towards her instead of stomping her out like every other petty criminal he runs into, and in Joker in the way he shows affection and caring towards her even if the general tone is of an abusive and exploitative nature.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Hoopla! on March 14, 2019, 03:08:10 am
Can is not should.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on March 15, 2019, 01:37:12 am
Can you imagine what elections would be like?

Aren't a sizable percentage of world leaders already supervillains?
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 15, 2019, 03:28:53 am
Can is not should.

You're really not serious about havin' a good time, are you?
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Hoopla! on March 15, 2019, 06:36:01 pm
Can is not should.

You're really not serious about havin' a good time, are you?

Or perhaps I am too serious about it.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 15, 2019, 07:56:25 pm
Can is not should.

You're really not serious about havin' a good time, are you?

Or perhaps I am too serious about it.

Can you ever be sufficiently committed to Sparkle Motion™?
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on March 15, 2019, 09:46:52 pm
Back to comics for a second... I really wosh we could go back to a pre-Harley Quinn world. /rant

Holy crap this.

Why? I loved her in the animated series, shes one of those ambivalent characters between good and evil that adds some depth.

But the Suicide Squad Harley i would def say something among the lines of:

(https://i.redd.it/53bibukrcl821.jpg)

Because the Joker doesn’t need a sidekick, and I feel like it softened him as a character somehow. This guy shouldn’t be developing relationships. He’s barely human.

What does being or not human even mean?  :lulz:

But i kinda see a point... I vaguely remember that there were apparently "genuine" moments in which Joker seemed to care about her and get mushy beyond of what Harley Quinn needed to keep her "under his spell" which does break Jokers character and does unreasonably soften him for the sake of a childrens series "love shipping".

So maybe the core problem is how Joker treats Harley, not Harley in herself which is a complex multi-dimensional character... a psychiatrist and representative of "medical law" that falls for this criminal loon, but has moments in which she comes to her senses and breaks away from him... Harley actually has dilemmas and uncertainties, while Batman and the Joker are just monolitich memes.

Even absolute pyschopaths can fall in love.

Yeah, look at the Moors Murderers, and Fred and Rose West, and to a lesser extent Bonnie and Clyde
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: The Johnny on March 15, 2019, 10:11:24 pm
Can you imagine what elections would be like?

Aren't a sizable percentage of world leaders already supervillains?

Give them a couple of years, we're getting there  :lulz:

Most are just really uninspired (and un-checked) capitalist pigs, so its as entertaining as going to a barn. But boy oh boy, with the return of fascism its gonna get ENTERTANING.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on March 16, 2019, 04:42:54 am
What about regular law enforcement, how would that square with the normalization of vigilante justice?

I know that Batman reports to Comissioner Gordon and has permission from the police to do what he is doing (although Comissioner Gordon likely has radically overstepped his authority), and Auqaman theortically has diplomatic immunity due to being the king of Atlantis. Superman may have diplomatic immunity as well since he is, by default, effectively the Kryptonian government, as only one is required for Krypton to remain a relevant power and for much of his storyline he is the only kryptonian survivor who is neither disqualified due to being an exiled criminal nor being held prisoner by the supervillain Brainiac
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on March 16, 2019, 01:18:17 pm
I know that Batman reports to Comissioner Gordon and has permission from the police to do what he is doing
Batman answers to Gordon?  That's absurd.  Responding to someone's distress signals, and occasionally sharing information, does not imply that you're under their authority.  If Gordon was following The Rules, he would be trying to arrest Batman.  And if the police did withdraw their "permission", do you think Batman would stop?  It isn't as if Batman and the police are never at odds.

Quote
Superman may have diplomatic immunity as well since he is, by default, effectively the Kryptonian government, as only one is required for Krypton to remain a relevant power
Government of what?  Space dust doesn't count as territory, and a sole survivor is hardly a population.  Superman gets away with what he does because a) he's perceived as one of the good guys, and b) no one could stop him anyway.

Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Cain on March 16, 2019, 01:41:40 pm
You have to admit, that was a pretty novel interpretation.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Pergamos on March 16, 2019, 03:15:19 pm
What about regular law enforcement, how would that square with the normalization of vigilante justice?

I know that Batman reports to Comissioner Gordon and has permission from the police to do what he is doing (although Comissioner Gordon likely has radically overstepped his authority), and Auqaman theortically has diplomatic immunity due to being the king of Atlantis. Superman may have diplomatic immunity as well since he is, by default, effectively the Kryptonian government, as only one is required for Krypton to remain a relevant power and for much of his storyline he is the only kryptonian survivor who is neither disqualified due to being an exiled criminal nor being held prisoner by the supervillain Brainiac

Batman actually explored this a fair amount in the comics, he was hunted by the police for a while before coming to his arrangement with Gordon.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 16, 2019, 04:16:19 pm

 and a sole survivor is hardly a population. 

But it is.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on March 16, 2019, 04:50:30 pm

 and a sole survivor is hardly a population. 

But it is.
It is, technically, but a formal system of government typically entails a population count above the monkeysphere limit (100-150 people).
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on March 16, 2019, 04:50:53 pm
Quote
Superman may have diplomatic immunity as well since he is, by default, effectively the Kryptonian government, as only one is required for Krypton to remain a relevant power
Government of what?  Space dust doesn't count as territory, and a sole survivor is hardly a population.  Superman gets away with what he does because a) he's perceived as one of the good guys, and b) no one could stop him anyway.

Point B is the key here. Even with only one guy left Krypton is still a signficant military power
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on March 16, 2019, 05:14:07 pm
Quote
Superman may have diplomatic immunity as well since he is, by default, effectively the Kryptonian government, as only one is required for Krypton to remain a relevant power
Government of what?  Space dust doesn't count as territory, and a sole survivor is hardly a population.  Superman gets away with what he does because a) he's perceived as one of the good guys, and b) no one could stop him anyway.

Point B is the key here. Even with only one guy left Krypton is still a signficant military power
There is no Krypton anymore, and Superman is a civilian.
In contrast, General Zod is (was) Kryptonian military.  Would you like to give him diplomatic immunity?
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Prelate Diogenes Shandor on March 16, 2019, 05:37:16 pm
Quote
Superman may have diplomatic immunity as well since he is, by default, effectively the Kryptonian government, as only one is required for Krypton to remain a relevant power
Government of what?  Space dust doesn't count as territory, and a sole survivor is hardly a population.  Superman gets away with what he does because a) he's perceived as one of the good guys, and b) no one could stop him anyway.

Point B is the key here. Even with only one guy left Krypton is still a signficant military power
There is no Krypton anymore, and Superman is a civilian.
In contrast, General Zod is (was) Kryptonian military.  Would you like to give him diplomatic immunity?
He was exiled, I don't think he's even a kryptonian citizen anymore.

My argumemt was that everything would default to superman because he's the only one left who wasn't formally disqualified before the shit went down (and who is also free to act and not a prisoner of Brainiac). Everything would fall to him by virtue of there being no one else.

Plus, despite being a civilian, he is nonetheless, by himself, and regardless of anything else that may or may not default to him, a de facto military power
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: chaotic neutral observer on March 16, 2019, 10:11:06 pm
There is no Krypton anymore, and Superman is a civilian.
In contrast, General Zod is (was) Kryptonian military.  Would you like to give him diplomatic immunity?
He was exiled, I don't think he's even a kryptonian citizen anymore.

My argumemt was that everything would default to superman because he's the only one left who wasn't formally disqualified before the shit went down (and who is also free to act and not a prisoner of Brainiac). Everything would fall to him by virtue of there being no one else.

What are your feelings about the standing of the current leader of the Soviet Union?  I'm only asking because, as of today, the Soviet Union is in far better condition than Krypton (they both broke up, but the former Soviet Union's landmass is still there).

This "everything" that you claim would fall to Superman seems to me to be nothing at all.  Why are you so insistent on ascribing some sort of authority to Superman based on him being one of the last Kryptonians?  Superman derives his power from having actual superpowers.  If he had the same abilities as an ordinary human, do you think that him being the head of the Kryptonian government would signify any more than a snowflake in a sandstorm?
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: The Johnny on March 16, 2019, 10:13:51 pm
How dare you assume Supermans political gender?!

Maybe hes a kryptonian anarchist emigree that abides by Earths laws.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: nullified on March 16, 2019, 11:39:36 pm
How dare you assume Supermans political gender?!

Maybe hes a kryptonian anarchist emigree that abides by Earths laws.

Do me the hugest of favors and never make a gender joke again. Ever. For the rest of your life.

Not because you are bad, but because those jokes are bad and there’s good reason you don’t see anyone else round here saying them.

Signed,
Actually trans and, like anyone else who doesn’t want to be in the hospital in an hour, rarely corrects misgendering.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: The Johnny on March 17, 2019, 08:51:46 am
How dare you assume Supermans political gender?!

Maybe hes a kryptonian anarchist emigree that abides by Earths laws.

Do me the hugest of favors and never make a gender joke again. Ever. For the rest of your life.

Not because you are bad, but because those jokes are bad and there’s good reason you don’t see anyone else round here saying them.

Signed,
Actually trans and, like anyone else who doesn’t want to be in the hospital in an hour, rarely corrects misgendering.

Ok, ill be more sensitive, my bad.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Cain on March 17, 2019, 10:13:55 am
Since you may not know Johnny, given you said you didn't know much about the alt-right before yesterday, jokes like that and the now-infamous "attack helicoptor meme" are almost exclusively used by alt-right refuse when mocking trans people.

The internet has been pretty shite for the past few years.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Con-troll on March 17, 2019, 12:45:16 pm
Wait... so one could actually avoid that shit? I really need to go get some perspective.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: The Johnny on March 17, 2019, 07:30:39 pm
Since you may not know Johnny, given you said you didn't know much about the alt-right before yesterday, jokes like that and the now-infamous "attack helicoptor meme" are almost exclusively used by alt-right refuse when mocking trans people.

The internet has been pretty shite for the past few years.

The "alt-right" discourse/practice is an anglo/euro phenomenon that i experience as an observer/foreigner, we dont have the equivalent of it in terms of cohesion or organization, nor a cohesive and organized opposition either; despite some issues being global tendencies, the framing of discussion is very different.

Also, even tho gay rights and homophobia are a thematic recurrence, trans and genderization issues are non-existant compared to the USA (in Mexico, that is)... making memory, i think ive only personally met two persons that choose to be called different from their biological sex.


Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: nullified on March 17, 2019, 07:47:57 pm
Since you may not know Johnny, given you said you didn't know much about the alt-right before yesterday, jokes like that and the now-infamous "attack helicoptor meme" are almost exclusively used by alt-right refuse when mocking trans people.

The internet has been pretty shite for the past few years.

The "alt-right" discourse/practice is an anglo/euro phenomenon that i experience as an observer/foreigner, we dont have the equivalent of it in terms of cohesion or organization, nor a cohesive and organized opposition either; despite some issues being global tendencies, the framing of discussion is very different.

Also, even tho gay rights and homophobia are a thematic recurrence, trans and genderization issues are non-existant compared to the USA (in Mexico, that is)... making memory, i think ive only personally met two persons that choose to be called different from their biological sex.

Speaking from awareness of the situation in Mexico by way of trans friends who live there, you know so few there because most of those who make it public they’re trans get murdered. Best friends and family members count as publicizing it in Mexico, as in a lot of places where being trans in public is equivalent to suicide.

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.eluniversal.com.mx/amp/note/amp/eluniversal/1414609

This phenomenon, by the way, is so widespread that we have a kind of sick holiday for it, the Trans Day of Remembrance.

I’m willing to guarantee you that you have met far more trans people than you think, just they will never, ever, /ever/ let you know. They might present as their birth gender or they might have transitioned. But they will never, ever, not with a gun to their head, say a goddamn word to you or anyone else. This is called “going stealth”.

Please don’t assume the issues don’t exist just because you don’t see them. That’s the same shit as white Europeans saying racism is an American problem. There are serious issues, issues with a body count, around trans rights in Mexico. Among them is “the right to breathe as a trans person”. Your being unaware of them doesn’t make them go away.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: The Johnny on March 17, 2019, 08:42:39 pm
Since you may not know Johnny, given you said you didn't know much about the alt-right before yesterday, jokes like that and the now-infamous "attack helicoptor meme" are almost exclusively used by alt-right refuse when mocking trans people.

The internet has been pretty shite for the past few years.

The "alt-right" discourse/practice is an anglo/euro phenomenon that i experience as an observer/foreigner, we dont have the equivalent of it in terms of cohesion or organization, nor a cohesive and organized opposition either; despite some issues being global tendencies, the framing of discussion is very different.

Also, even tho gay rights and homophobia are a thematic recurrence, trans and genderization issues are non-existant compared to the USA (in Mexico, that is)... making memory, i think ive only personally met two persons that choose to be called different from their biological sex.

Speaking from awareness of the situation in Mexico by way of trans friends who live there, you know so few there because most of those who make it public they’re trans get murdered. Best friends and family members count as publicizing it in Mexico, as in a lot of places where being trans in public is equivalent to suicide.

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.eluniversal.com.mx/amp/note/amp/eluniversal/1414609

This phenomenon, by the way, is so widespread that we have a kind of sick holiday for it, the Trans Day of Remembrance.

I’m willing to guarantee you that you have met far more trans people than you think, just they will never, ever, /ever/ let you know. They might present as their birth gender or they might have transitioned. But they will never, ever, not with a gun to their head, say a goddamn word to you or anyone else. This is called “going stealth”.

Please don’t assume the issues don’t exist just because you don’t see them. That’s the same shit as white Europeans saying racism is an American problem. There are serious issues, issues with a body count, around trans rights in Mexico. Among them is “the right to breathe as a trans person”. Your being unaware of them doesn’t make them go away.

In some states its very common for homosexuals/trans to get killed that is true, and i phrased it wrong, by "not an issue" i mean that its not a public topic discussed as widely as in other countries; theres discussions of homophobia here and there in the media, the trans topic is rarely touched and i have not seen a single discussion about gender pronouns (?) - as a side note related to the article, i dont even think that "hate crimes" exist as legal typification yet for racism or trans/homophobia, but i think theres something among the lines of "violence targetted at women" that makes sentences harsher, not sure.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Al Qədic on March 18, 2019, 02:31:36 am
Since you may not know Johnny, given you said you didn't know much about the alt-right before yesterday, jokes like that and the now-infamous "attack helicoptor meme" are almost exclusively used by alt-right refuse when mocking trans people.

The internet has been pretty shite for the past few years.

The "alt-right" discourse/practice is an anglo/euro phenomenon that i experience as an observer/foreigner, we dont have the equivalent of it in terms of cohesion or organization, nor a cohesive and organized opposition either; despite some issues being global tendencies, the framing of discussion is very different.

Also, even tho gay rights and homophobia are a thematic recurrence, trans and genderization issues are non-existant compared to the USA (in Mexico, that is)... making memory, i think ive only personally met two persons that choose to be called different from their biological sex.

Speaking from awareness of the situation in Mexico by way of trans friends who live there, you know so few there because most of those who make it public they’re trans get murdered. Best friends and family members count as publicizing it in Mexico, as in a lot of places where being trans in public is equivalent to suicide.

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.eluniversal.com.mx/amp/note/amp/eluniversal/1414609

This phenomenon, by the way, is so widespread that we have a kind of sick holiday for it, the Trans Day of Remembrance.

I’m willing to guarantee you that you have met far more trans people than you think, just they will never, ever, /ever/ let you know. They might present as their birth gender or they might have transitioned. But they will never, ever, not with a gun to their head, say a goddamn word to you or anyone else. This is called “going stealth”.

Please don’t assume the issues don’t exist just because you don’t see them. That’s the same shit as white Europeans saying racism is an American problem. There are serious issues, issues with a body count, around trans rights in Mexico. Among them is “the right to breathe as a trans person”. Your being unaware of them doesn’t make them go away.

In some states its very common for homosexuals/trans to get killed that is true, and i phrased it wrong, by "not an issue" i mean that its not a public topic discussed as widely as in other countries; theres discussions of homophobia here and there in the media, the trans topic is rarely touched and i have not seen a single discussion about gender pronouns (?) - as a side note related to the article, i dont even think that "hate crimes" exist as legal typification yet for racism or trans/homophobia, but i think theres something among the lines of "violence targetted at women" that makes sentences harsher, not sure.

Throwing my two cents in here, if I may. Echoing what null has already mentioned, trans people are marginalized to hell and back, when they're even acknowledged at all, in a lot of places. I hope I don't sound like I'm talking down to you, Johnny, but I want to say that, personally, I think the best part of this conversation right now is the fact that you said a somewhat unsavory joke, and still acknowledge the problematic subject matter around it, even though you weren't as knowledgeable about said subject. Shit is hard to keep up with, man, and as far as I've concerned, I'd rather have a bunch of harmless jokes that come off awkwardly rather than a single actually malicious comment on the matter, you know what I mean?

The thing about issues like this, like many other issues, is the matter of the knowledge of the person piping up and saying something. Sometimes we don't know as much as we thought we knew. Sometimes information changes entirely, and we might not be any the wiser until we screw up and present old, faulty info. Hell, I'm a trans woman in California, and I have no bloody idea what LGBT issues are like south of the border. From what I can gather here they seem...lukewarm? Some legislation, with little visibility?

I'm not sure what point I've made here, I'm busy watching Twin Peaks, eating granola, and writing an essay about trickster deities. I'm short, I hope none of the tense feelings around the subject matter will be misconstrued as malice by any party. To me, it's a great thing just to have the conversation in the first place. Cheers, all.

On a side note, screw the helicopter jokes. Who would even want to be a helicopter? Jet planes are obviously superior. :lulz:
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: nullified on March 18, 2019, 02:42:39 am
Oh yeah, I want to be clear: I think Johnny’s a great dude. He’s been missed in his time away and I didn’t think he was malicious in intent for a minute.

But I have a tendency to view things like this as “teachable moments,” which requires a tough balance to be struck between clearly communicating this is not okay, but making it about the thing said and not the person. Johnny seemed to interpret me correctly both times, so I don’t think I’m too far off in my approach here.

It was intended as a quick aside, and his last post addressed my points concisely and pointed out I misunderstood him on one point, so we can go back to posting about the political implications of being able to destroy a nation alone with your bare hands in a picture book.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: The Johnny on March 18, 2019, 08:50:41 am

Yeah like, in this same forum years back i think one time i "yelled" at someone when we ran into a touchy subject instead of trying to educate them, and i think i wasnt the first or the last one to do it... and i mean, theres some cases like the "id rather be alive than get shot by sand nags" guy (or something like that) which is full blown racism, then other cases which is just lack of contact, expererience or degrees of sensibility.

Also it takes me between 10 to 20 minutes to write a post in this forum, between the inner translations, corrections and thinking of the content, and my english isnt that bad nor am i particularly dumb... which i guess its good? it forces me to think, just like it might do for other members, because were all very diverse
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Faust on March 18, 2019, 10:37:48 am
Look what you are discussing is an important social issue, but can we get back to the business at hand of forcing cramulus to choose a side in the mcu/dc film conflict
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: nullified on March 18, 2019, 10:41:54 am
Look what you are discussing is an important social issue, but can we get back to the business at hand of forcing cramulus to choose a side in the mcu/dc film conflict

It is crucially important that Cramulus takes a stand so we can descend on him like a pack of demented orangutans, as is custom.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Cramulus on March 18, 2019, 11:59:44 am
Here's a teachable moment:

:this:

 :nuke2:
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Hoopla! on March 18, 2019, 12:58:47 pm
Hey, I saw Captain Marvel yesterday and I liked it.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 18, 2019, 07:26:13 pm
Saying "Teachable moment" to or about someone instantly guarantees that they will immediately stop listening.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 18, 2019, 07:26:35 pm
Hey, I saw Captain Marvel yesterday and I liked it.

It looks pretty good.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: nullified on March 18, 2019, 07:37:34 pm
Saying "Teachable moment" to or about someone instantly guarantees that they will immediately stop listening.

I have a bad habit of saying things that sort of way, it is a curse I labor under in the same way as the curse where I say shit that belongs in the mouth of a wizard in a low rent Lord of the Rings ripoff.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Cain on March 18, 2019, 08:05:21 pm
Saying "Teachable moment" to or about someone instantly guarantees that they will immediately stop listening.

Is this a teachable moment?
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Faust on March 18, 2019, 08:56:46 pm
Captain Marvel was... OK. It uses the same skeleton of humor they have been using since Guardians of the galaxy, but the plot was weaker then average and they aren't great with the plots in general. That said its fun, the characters are entertaining but the films are giving diminishing returns.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 18, 2019, 09:11:25 pm
Saying "Teachable moment" to or about someone instantly guarantees that they will immediately stop listening.

Is this a teachable moment?

It's different when I do it.  :lulz:
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Doktor Howl on March 18, 2019, 09:12:26 pm
Captain Marvel was... OK. It uses the same skeleton of humor they have been using since Guardians of the galaxy, but the plot was weaker then average and they aren't great with the plots in general. That said its fun, the characters are entertaining but the films are giving diminishing returns.

In a Superhero movie, I want to see people in tights punch each other.

A lack of actual contradictions in the plot is also good.

I am not looking for Bonfire of the Vanities, here.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Hoopla! on March 18, 2019, 09:21:55 pm
Captain Marvel was... OK. It uses the same skeleton of humor they have been using since Guardians of the galaxy, but the plot was weaker then average and they aren't great with the plots in general. That said its fun, the characters are entertaining but the films are giving diminishing returns.

In a Superhero movie, I want to see people in tights punch each other.

A lack of actual contradictions in the plot is also good.

I am not looking for Bonfire of the Vanities, here.

Ditto. It’s pulp. Fun is really my only prerequisite.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Hoopla! on March 18, 2019, 09:24:27 pm
And while I get that people have begun shitting on Marvel movies for using humor so much, if the alternative is Man of Steel and Batman v Superman, I will take a heaping spoonful of Emo Phillips.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Faust on March 18, 2019, 09:59:07 pm
Captain Marvel was... OK. It uses the same skeleton of humor they have been using since Guardians of the galaxy, but the plot was weaker then average and they aren't great with the plots in general. That said its fun, the characters are entertaining but the films are giving diminishing returns.

In a Superhero movie, I want to see people in tights punch each other.

A lack of actual contradictions in the plot is also good.

I am not looking for Bonfire of the Vanities, here.
I'm not saying I'm looking for high art.
As spectacle, the punch each other part is running its course for me for a few years unless they find way to keep it creative.
Plot contradictions I probably wont even notice, plot dumps in the first five minutes and then the main character seeking to fill in the plot dumps the audience has just had because of amnesia wears out its welcome.
There are ways to keep the films creative which is hard where they are designed by committee and made on an assembly line but every so often some of them doing it freshly.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Faust on March 18, 2019, 10:16:10 pm
And while I get that people have begun shitting on Marvel movies for using humor so much, if the alternative is Man of Steel and Batman v Superman, I will take a heaping spoonful of Emo Phillips.
Those are polar opposites though, BvS is the most dreary, boring, badly written film I've seen in years. The TV show Titans goes with serious drama and it works well because it is mostly a character drama, and has some beautiful cinematography.
I'm not shitting on Marvel exactly, just that well executed comedy is hard to do, Thor Ragnarok does it spectacularly while keeping the pace up and somehow conveying information that is important. In captain marvel, most of the jokes are good, and some fall flat but they kind of come at the expense of other stuff.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: The Johnny on March 19, 2019, 12:18:51 am
And while I get that people have begun shitting on Marvel movies for using humor so much, if the alternative is Man of Steel and Batman v Superman, I will take a heaping spoonful of Emo Phillips.

The other day while i was doing my long stationary bike cardio session i got the amazing coincidence of watching a part of Bat vs. Super on TV...

And i really belive is some sort of highbrow 2000IQ comedy:

Batman: "You are the BAD VIGILANTE"

Superman: "NO, YOUR THE BAD VIGILANTE"

Batman: "ITS YOURE* NOT YOUR, DO YOU BLEED"

Then its a kitsch fiesta of punches and explosions and bad plot twists; isnt that just pure comedy gold???
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Hoopla! on March 19, 2019, 12:25:02 am
And while I get that people have begun shitting on Marvel movies for using humor so much, if the alternative is Man of Steel and Batman v Superman, I will take a heaping spoonful of Emo Phillips.

The other day while i was doing my long stationary bike cardio session i got the amazing coincidence of watching a part of Bat vs. Super on TV...

And i really belive is some sort of highbrow 2000IQ comedy:

Batman: "You are the BAD VIGILANTE"

Superman: "NO, YOUR THE BAD VIGILANTE"

Batman: "ITS YOURE* NOT YOUR, DO YOU BLEED"

Then its a kitsch fiesta of punches and explosions and bad plot twists; isnt that just pure comedy gold???

It’s a different kind of funny. I laughed during BvS but my laughter made a few families change seats.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: P3nT4gR4m on March 19, 2019, 03:43:17 pm
I fucking love the MCU shit. Aesthetics, SFX, ott characters and corny dialogue. What's not to like? DC, otoh, go all po faced and try to make me take their shit seriously so fuck those clowns. Heath Ledger was awesome but the Dark Knight actually sucked balls. It's easy to miss that, tho cos Heath Ledger was so fucking awesome in it. Same deal as Gollum being so f'kin amazing you don't notice the second LoTR movie was complete wank.

Watchmen, I actually enjoyed the movie almost as much as the comic. I realise I'm the only one on earth who feels this way and am strangely comfortable with that.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Hoopla! on March 19, 2019, 03:50:05 pm
I fucking love the MCU shit. Aesthetics, SFX, ott characters and corny dialogue. What's not to like? DC, otoh, go all po faced and try to make me take their shit seriously so fuck those clowns. Heath Ledger was awesome but the Dark Knight actually sucked balls. It's easy to miss that, tho cos Heath Ledger was so fucking awesome in it. Same deal as Gollum being so f'kin amazing you don't notice the second LoTR movie was complete wank.

Watchmen, I actually enjoyed the movie almost as much as the comic. I realise I'm the only one on earth who feels this way and am strangely comfortable with that.

I liked most of the Watchmen. I didnt agree with making NiteOwl buff, but thats a pretty minor quibble.

And I agree with you 100% on the Dark Knight. I watched the bulk of it again pretty recently and was a little surprised how much it did not hold together. 
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Fujikoma on April 01, 2019, 03:06:23 am
Someone mentioned "Worm" early on, this is a damn good bit of webfiction, unfortunately, the sheer size of it can be intimidating, and a sequel is still being written in a web-fiction format... but it does touch on a lot of the downsides of superpowers, and, a society with superpowers.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Faust on April 03, 2019, 09:01:16 am
Shazam, the other Captain Marvel film is out this week. Not sure if they are going to use his comic name of Captain Marvel (what with lawsuits and all that)., but I am curious to see what he can actually name himself. The reason he isn't "Shazam" in the comics is that if he says his name he turns back into a little kid. Thus also having superhero name.


Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Fujikoma on April 03, 2019, 09:59:36 am
I mean, the reason is he's the world's shittiest superhero.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Faust on April 03, 2019, 11:53:10 am
I mean, the reason is he's the world's shittiest superhero.
He's dorky in the same way most DC characters are dorky and I love it. They shouldn't try the dark and gritty reboots with batman in full metal plate, or worse try to distract us from the goofy charm of the likes of Aquaman, where DC were so insecure about the character they try to hypnotise us with Jason Mamoa's glistening abs
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: LMNO on April 03, 2019, 01:02:31 pm
I mean, the reason is he's the world's shittiest superhero.
He's dorky in the same way most DC characters are dorky and I love it. They shouldn't try the dark and gritty reboots with batman in full metal plate, or worse try to distract us from the goofy charm of the likes of Aquaman, where DC were so insecure about the character they try to hypnotise us with Jason Mamoa's glistening abs


Worked for me.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Hoopla! on April 03, 2019, 02:26:02 pm
He’s been called Shazam officially since 2011 or so, I think. I preferred Marvelman.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Faust on April 03, 2019, 03:29:17 pm
I mean, the reason is he's the world's shittiest superhero.
He's dorky in the same way most DC characters are dorky and I love it. They shouldn't try the dark and gritty reboots with batman in full metal plate, or worse try to distract us from the goofy charm of the likes of Aquaman, where DC were so insecure about the character they try to hypnotise us with Jason Mamoa's glistening abs


Worked for me.
I guess hanging a film on that fantastic chest is reasonable, didn't really matter what the film was

He’s been called Shazam officially since 2011 or so, I think. I preferred Marvelman.
Disney's team of lawyers and warrior comics and that dick Todd McFarlane want words with you. I didn't realise they renamed him in the New 52. Not sure if I like that
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Hoopla! on April 03, 2019, 03:30:16 pm
Yeah how exactly did Todd Macfarlane get involved with Marvelman anyway?
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: nullified on April 03, 2019, 04:03:11 pm
Any time macfarlane comes up I end up with literal, physical question marks above my head

I’m about as edgy a person as you can find who isn’t a completely garbage human and yet /better people than me/ were macfarlane fans, what even is the draw, I don’t understand

Forgive my typing like a worm, I am both sick and also actually literally a human-sized roundworm
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Hoopla! on April 03, 2019, 05:08:02 pm
When he first joined Spider-Man when I was around 13 I was in absolute love with his art style. It was completely different than everyone else who had worked on Spidey around that time. His poses were insane, his webbing felt alive. However, looking back a lot of the stuff I loved looks like it was drawn by a teenager.

I was not into Spawn at all, so all I know about him now is vague stories of him being an asshole.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: nullified on April 03, 2019, 05:12:24 pm
Spawn should have been something I was into because I was an edgy dumbass kid but I never saw the draw, just seemed incredibly dull and stupid to me (and it still does)
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Faust on April 03, 2019, 06:17:21 pm
Todd bought the toy rights or something to Miracle/Marvel man when the 4 way legal battle happened somehow he ended up asserting some kind of ownership claim but I don't know the extent of.

I follow writers not characters, if I told you Will Magnus and the Metal men had a brilliant funny story written by mark waid in 52.
Spawn the character has a couple of interesting stories one by alan moore  and one by grant morrison I think.
There was a good HBO animated spawn series with great voice acting that ran a few series back in the nineties that as a teen I loved, but watvhing it again it  is very dark.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: The Johnny on April 05, 2019, 07:08:28 am
..
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: LMNO on April 05, 2019, 01:09:28 pm
Looping way back to a completely SEPARATE tangent, I never read the Legion comics, I've only seen the show (and I fell in love).

On a scale of Sandman to The Invisibles, how much of a headfuck are the comics?  I'm considering reading them.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Cramulus on April 05, 2019, 01:38:29 pm
Alan Moore, writing Watchmen: “The superhero fantasy is authoritarian and even fascistic.”

Nerdy Fanboys: “Awesome!”

Alan Moore:

Alan Moore: “No that’s… that’s not awesome.”

[s (https://mckitterick.tumblr.com/post/182466023130)]
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Faust on April 05, 2019, 03:32:28 pm
Looping way back to a completely SEPARATE tangent, I never read the Legion comics, I've only seen the show (and I fell in love).

On a scale of Sandman to The Invisibles, how much of a headfuck are the comics?  I'm considering reading them.
To be honest legion in the comics has never really been all that close to the TV show, that's why it was so fresh, they treated it almost as a blank slate and a vehicle for new ideas. In X-force he was very nineties edgy. This has an advantage for the TV, I have no idea where they are going to go next with the character and its interesting because of I have no frame of reference for it.

The closest comic for mental illness with experimental story telling (barring The Invisibles as you mentioned, and The Filth by Grant Morrison) I can think of is Shade the Changing man by Peter Milligan. The art is gorgeous too with many of the artists overlapping with sandman. The amazon description mentions it as "Shade is back" but you wouldn't have ever needed to read the old golden age comics to get any of this
https://www.amazon.com/Shade-Changing-Man-Vol-American/dp/140120046X

Alan Moore, writing Watchmen: “The superhero fantasy is authoritarian and even fascistic.”

Nerdy Fanboys: “Awesome!”

Alan Moore:

Alan Moore: “No that’s… that’s not awesome.”

[s (https://mckitterick.tumblr.com/post/182466023130)]

And so watchmen becomes another Nazi's power fantasy to be milked until everyone loses interest. HBO are doing watchman something now. Because we want Nazi's in beautiful colourful clothes to crush us under their boot, this is society now.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: LMNO on April 05, 2019, 03:52:41 pm
Thanks for the advice, Faust!
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: T̼̞̼ͅr̳̬̤̖̱͚̮̘̜̦̦i̲̩̝͕̣̲̪v̺͇̫̯͉͖͈͖͔̺̰̣͉̟̻̫̭i̦̖Q on April 05, 2019, 03:54:01 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmLFGWAyajU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmLFGWAyajU)

Stan Lee picks on McFarlane and Liefeld.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Faust on April 05, 2019, 04:03:57 pm
Yikes, he doesn't hold back. That last line as well "By the way you guys have ruined us, were going into showbiz" This was recorded a couple of years or less of the comics books industry collapse and half a decade before Blade started the ball rolling on the film aspect.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Hoopla! on April 05, 2019, 04:23:38 pm
They deserved to be picked on. That was some garbage they put together there, like all the worst of both of them rolled into one horrible character.
Title: Capeshit
Post by: nullified on April 05, 2019, 05:24:47 pm
Like I said, I was a really fucking edgy child and even I did not get the draw to this sort of crap.

I grew out of the comics of my time /before I was old enough to be the target audience/.

Instead I was obsessed with Alien, Evil Dead and Tremors in movies, Quake and Diablo in video games, and being perfectly honest with myself and everyone else, the only TV show I was super into as a child for any length of time was Gargoyles.

Like... who is the target audience for Macfarlane and Liefeld’s stuff? Who likes this shit? I genuinely want to know, because it is absolutely mind boggling to me. It isn’t even all that edgy. The cenobites from Hellraiser, those are edgy. This Overkill is a sad clown, except the clown shoes are on his shoulders and he’s got a gun hand.

ETA: Wait, I figured it out!!! The target audience is juggalos!
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: LMNO on April 05, 2019, 07:22:33 pm
Didn't he draw mega-boobed women before it became an industry standard?


I didn't read much of his stuff, but I do remember that. 




...yes, I was going through puberty at the time.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Hoopla! on April 05, 2019, 07:35:45 pm
Didn't he draw mega-boobed women before it became an industry standard?


I didn't read much of his stuff, but I do remember that. 




...yes, I was going through puberty at the time.

He even drew mega-boobed men.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Cain on April 07, 2019, 03:33:11 am
Those were just pouches.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: nullified on April 07, 2019, 03:58:59 am
So the target audience is /marsupial/ juggalos.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Cain on April 07, 2019, 04:12:29 am
I think that, unlike Liefeld, juggalos know how feet work.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: nullified on April 07, 2019, 04:18:04 am
But do marsupial juggalos?
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: IntentionallyLeftBlank on May 09, 2019, 07:57:27 pm
Having only read the OP, may I suggest checking out "The Tick" on Amazon? Maybe someone has mentioned it already, or maybe, being almost an outright parody, it doesn't quite fit the bill. In any case, I fucking love The Tick so I figured I'd shill it, seeing how it was somewhat relevant to the topic.
Title: Re: Capeshit
Post by: Juana on May 10, 2019, 07:04:06 pm
I enjoy superhero media, tbf, but i'm just gonna point out that Umbrella Academy is a deconstruction imo of the child superheroes thing, like the X-men Academy: they're all horribly fucked up and awful as adults. it's certainly got its faults - there are about six interesting characters and everybody else is boring - but i like the angle myself.

also, on the note of captain marvel, i have a lot of feelings about arc re: carol getting away from the supreme intelligence and yon-rogg. the gaslighting and "you need us" are classic abuser tactics and she kicks them to the curb like the trash they are when she comes into her own. it's also fundamentally about intense and important relationships between women (Mar-vel/wendy to carol, carol to maria) and that's important to me, at least. we don't get to see that very much.